Gyles's diary, episode 24

0:22This is more Rosebud, which means we record this to let you have it on a Tuesday, but you can listen to it any day you like. I say we because it's not just me on a Tuesday. It's me and my producer and friend, Harriet Jane. Now, people say to me, these emails, how do they get messages to us? They email hello at rosebudpodcast.com. And if they don't have email, is there any other way of communicating with us? Well, some people write to us at Grosvenor House Hotel on Park Lane, London. Oh, yes, that's possible. And we have, I'm on Instagram, aren't I? Yes, and so are we. An ex. So I'm at Giles Brandreth on Instagram.

1:02And you're at GilesB1 on Twitter. And I'm at GilesB1 on ex. And what are we as a team? At the Rosebud Podcast. At the Rosebud Podcast. So people can follow us and they can review us. Yes. If they want to be friendly. And watch videos and all that sort of thing. Oh, that's quite fun. Yeah, they're really good. And we're going to do some more of that, aren't we? Because we're videoing things now. Yeah. Yeah, we're entering the 21st century finally. Well, we were nervous about it for a good reason. because our conversations often are quite intimate. And I feel it's... Sometimes people say, oh, you had a politician on, you didn't challenge them about that.

1:37And I say, this is not a podcast about challenging anybody, about anything. It's about people coming in and sharing their early memories, whatever springs from that first question, whatever it leads. So people can share as much or as little as they choose. Yeah, and we want people to feel relaxed. But people have coped with the cameras. they have partly because i think we're just filming it on two iphones so it's quite unobtrusive isn't it it's not like a big tv camera and actually that's something i was going to say that someone commented the other day on instagram that one of the guests was speaking too quickly for them and they said could we ask the guests to speak more slowly to which i replied actually don't think that would necessarily be a great idea because i think that would make someone self-conscious and and if you are someone to speak slowly they just end up feeling weird but then i looked on the podcast player that i use which is the one on my iphone the apple podcast app and you can actually play the podcast if you want to at 0.75 speed which is three quarters perfect speed so if you do find one of the guests for example antony horowitz antony or jojo siwa was a very fast talker particularly at the beginning in an american accent quite strong so if you do want to listen to that slightly more slowly you can do that and you can also listen to it sped up i listened if you find it boring i know it wasn't boring but for fun i speeded sue pollard up oh gosh that must have sounded amazing it was hilarious it was like me being with daffy duck i mean she is hilarious anyway she's so funny i loved her though and i said to somebody I said we've done Sue Pollard they said oh I know Sue Pollard I said what's interesting is you don't know Sue Pollard you do know Sue Pollard that bubbly personality so funny on things like Heidi High so entertaining on game shows wonderful in pantomimes but actually the joy of Rosebud I think is listening to people who you think you know I know everything about them and then finding ah maybe there was an element to them I didn't know yeah yeah do you know what I did you know she mentioned that Paul McCartney had said to her that her rendition of back in the ussr was the best one of the best ones he'd ever seen so i looked it up on youtube and obviously it's there because youtube's amazing and it's su poller doing back in the ussr on some kind of saturday night tv show in the 60s 70s maybe it's brilliant she's got a brilliant voice and it's such a good performance and and they've really like jazzed up back in the USSR.

4:16And she's really going for it with amazing dance moves and these backing. It's really worth watching, actually, Sue Paula doing this song because she's a brilliant performer. Well, I had an interesting experience the other Sunday. Some young people came around. I think I've told you one of my grandchildren is in the new film version of Lord of the Flies, William Golding's novel, which is coming out either later this year or next year. and it's a tough story. Yeah, very tough. But one of the young actors, my grandson had some friends of his round here for a bit of a party for the birthday of the young man who is playing, he's now 13, who's playing the part of Piggy in Lord of the Flowers.

5:00And I met this young man, he was so charming and he came and shook my hand and as he shook my hand he said, I'm a great admirer of yours. Wow. It's a sweet thing to say given he's 13 and I'm not. And I said, oh really, is there anything in particular? thinking maybe he listened to Rosebud or Just a Minute, which is a radio show that a lot of people of that age do like. He said, I think your best work I've seen is some all-star musicals. He said, your performance of Get Me to the Church on Time is, in my view, better than the Stanley Holloway original, better than the film. Yeah, so I watch that quite regularly.

5:35So I said, where do I find this? He said, oh, ITVX, all-star musicals. I think it's series two or series three anyway. You're in it and it's marvellous. Wow, Giles. But isn't that charming? Well, I must watch this. I'm not saying, you watched, now you must find this. I will. And see what you make of it. Because you've never really sold your musical ability. You've always downplayed it. I really downplayed. Well, you know I do. You're hiding your light under a bushel. I'm so, I mean, I'm delighted to be invited to be at the proms as a guest, but really embarrassed to be talking about serious music with serious people.

6:12But I have appeared in a number of musicals. I've appeared in West End in a show called Zip, virtually before you were born. 100 musicals in 100 minutes. All your money back. And I did everything. I fulfilled all my... Do you know what I wrote? Maybe these diaries, we're going to have some more diaries today. I think what I've tried to do in my life is everything I ever wanted to do. Yeah. and I loved, I mean, this is absurd, I loved, who doesn't, the film The Wizard of Oz with Judy Garland. I love, love the film. Did you ever see your film? She actually comes up in this, I think she's going to come up in this episode.

6:53Well, that's interesting. What doesn't come up in this episode, I'm sure, because it only happened years later, is when we did it in the West End, Zip, 100 Musicals in 100 Minutes, we had to just do shows that had been on stage, And I thought, well, that's The Wizard of Oz being on stage. It's a film. And I discovered it had been. So I thought, this is my chance to be Dorothy. So at the end of this musical, I appeared in those emerald slippers. In the little blue gingham frock. Yes. And, yeah. And did you sing Somewhere Over the Rainbow? I did. You didn't, Giles. I did. I mean, no one should try that.

7:33And I may show you. I may show you. We may put it up at the end. and we may pull out the photographs, Lord Snowden, Tony Snowden, great theatre photographer, took some pictures of me dressed in my Dorothy outfit. And he'd taken photographs of Judy Garland too. Oh my goodness. And it was a very interesting experience. I have to... No, no, I think you've said before that you look great. Standing in the wings. But did you sound? Oh no, no. I mean, it's such an amazing sound, isn't it? I don't want you to listen to me singing Somewhere Over the Rainbow. I think what happened is as I began to sing it, our time was up.

8:14The 100 minutes was up. Good idea. So I achieved that and we won it. I found my place over the rainbow. That's a good idea. But what was interesting is as a child, I thought, I want to be Judy Garland. And so I was able to stand in the wings of a West End theatre looking in the mirror and thinking to myself, well, I am Judy Garland, or at least the next best thing. Quite strange wanting to be Judy Garland. I know. Charles. I know. You are such... I know. I mean, it is odd. You are. It is odd. You really are. Because I'm not, I mean, I'm not into trans dressing or anything. Well, that's what you think, but I think you probably are.

8:51No, I absolutely am not. You're just dampening it down with all these jumpers. I would never... What have you got on and doing that? I've told you that. Are you wearing a bra? It's of no interest to me whatsoever dressing up in women's clothes. But becoming Judy Garland was interesting to me. Yeah. And I enjoyed it. Yeah. I enjoyed being a girl in the wings and on stage. Yeah. But not afterwards. No. It's not something I'd take home. No, interesting. It's just professional. Interesting. I worked with Hinge and Bracket. Well, we'll come on to them later. We haven't got time for that. I'll tell you about that later.

9:37Another day. Next episode, guys. Look, have we had any... Harriet looks after the correspondence. What correspondence have we had this week you want to share? We've had this really nice email. I mean, it's quite sad. It's a bit of a gear change from what we've just been talking about. But I wanted to read it out because it's on the theme of childhood bereavement, losing your parents when you're young, which is a recurring theme of Rosebud. So, and I know some people are interested in this and it's from someone called D Saeed. And she, as a child, she was called D Brennan, Deidre Brennan, actually.

10:12And she writes, may I start by saying that I'm a late comer to the world of podcasts. I've listened with great interest to three of yours so far, plus one diary. The diary one was number 20 in which you talked about the loss of a parent. So I thought I'd give you a snippet of my own story. I'm the youngest of six children. My parents were both from the south of Ireland. They came and settled in London in the 1950s. Sadly, a month before my ninth birthday in June 1963, my mum died. I'm not sure if it was Wilston Green Station or Wilston Junction. She fell under a train and I believe she died the following day from her injuries.

10:51I didn't attend her funeral and my strongest memories of that time are being told by my father to stand next to my granny and my brother and being told that she was dead. I don't recall being cuddled or crying. My other memory is of dad getting us to kneel and pray for many evenings afterwards. I'm not sure what the prayers were exactly but I recall feeling very fed up about the whole thing. I wanted to be doing anything else than that. Then, four months before my 10th birthday in March the following year, my dad passed away. He died in the same hospital that I was born in. He'd been very poorly with his heart, I believe.

11:31Also, I think he'd had rheumatic fever as a young man. Again, I recall where I was when I was told about him. I was in the garden with my sister Joan hanging out washing. I don't recall crying, and I just got on with what I was doing. Again, I wasn't allowed to go to his funeral. After mum died I had alopecia and then again even worse after dad died. Another thing I remember is coming home from school not long after dad died and being told our dog Sally was dead in the back garden. I don't remember being particularly fond of her but I knelt down beside her and cried my heart out. How strange that I should cry for her but not my parents.

12:10There was no counsellor to talk to in those days and you just had to get on with life. I won't go into any more here but just to say that my childhood was, in simple terms, shit. My teenage years were hard and rebellious but I came through the other door okay, I think. Yours sincerely, Dee Saeed, Nay, Brennan. My gosh, what a letter there from Dee. Now I imagine you wrote back to Dee because you do sometimes write back to people don't you yes I did I wrote quite a long email to her and I told her that um actually my mum had died when I was 13 which I think listeners obviously know that and that she died by suicide my mum which I think reading between the lines is what happened to Dee's mum as well and she wrote back and said that yes it had been widely thought that her mum had died by suicide but obviously she'd never really been told that because it was a while ago when people didn't really talk about those things.

13:11And she also explained that her mum had had mental health problems because she'd lost three children and she'd obviously suffered a lot after that. Not surprisingly. So yes, Dee and I had a few emails and I was just really struck by some of the things she said about getting on with life. because I really remember that when my mum died and I think that happens to a lot of people whose parents die when they're young you sort of you're encouraged to kind of go back to school and people don't sort of want you to collapse because I think they're worried that it might all everything might fall apart and you might have some sort of breakdown so you sort of just keep going stoically which can really cause problems later on I think.

13:59did you cry much yes I did on the afternoon I was told I was told at the tea table by my dad and I remember really howling then and going to bed or going upstairs but then the next morning I was sort of determined to go back to school for some reason which seems mad now looking back but actually I woke up and put the radio on and it was a song which really made me cry again here comes the sun by the beetles so i didn't go to school but i did go the following day and then i just kind of got on with stuff at school i think but what d said about crying about the dog dying does that resonate with you really resonates with me because the times that i cried and i still cry is when i watch films so i remember being absolutely inconsolable at a friend's house when we watched Dead Poets Society, that film with Robin Williams, which is a really sad film.

14:59And I remember crying and crying and crying and her parents clearly not really knowing what to do because we were all watching this film, you know, her family and me. And suddenly there I was kind of sobbing and everyone was slightly awkward. But I think that was a weird sort of outlet for me. It felt like a time when I could let go because somehow crying about something as big as my mum's dead always felt too much to lay on other people and I end up feeling really awkward and as if I may put people in a difficult situation and they didn't know what to say and then you had that awful conversation where people say I'm so sorry and and you end up trying to make them feel better so you end up wanting to avoid those or I ended up wanting to avoid those moments where I felt vulnerable or exposed.

15:53And I think that's really common. And that's why people end up sort of bottling stuff up, which is clearly why Dee had a kind of rebellious teenage time. Well, anybody wants to share their story. I mean, it's fascinating for us to hear. And in fact, we are going to do a special episode, aren't we? In a few weeks time or a month or two. Yes. On this whole question of bereavement. in childhood and I hope we can discuss not only the experience but also how people used to do deal with it and how people do now. Yeah because I think it's much better now you know I think one thing I regret with my mum is we didn't really speak about her at all after she died so there's really you know no memory I hardly had any photos and there were no reminiscing about her so I don't know much whereas I think now people are encouraged children encouraged to try and look at pictures and talk about them and that's really important probably nobody knows what's right people what people did probably is what they thought was best yeah um i think that probably isn't an ideal answer because it's not an ideal situation no but i think that sort of brushing it under the carpet thing which is so tempting is a bit of cowardly and it's a bit of a cop-out and actually if you're the adults involved you you should probably not do that if you can just let it happen you've got to try and go there yeah well that's for a few weeks from now thank you thank you Harriet for sharing that because I know it's very vivid for you all the time and thanks Dee for writing and write again and anyone else who wants to write in about this subject yes we've given them the address it's always the same yeah hello at rosebudpodcast.com yeah and do write don't necessarily expect the fullest answer every time because I do need Harriet to be producing the show as well, booking guests, editing them.

17:47And we've got some extra surprises coming up. So she's got a lot to do. But she will, of course, reply to you as best she can. So well done. Thank you, Dee. Completely fascinating, actually. A fascinating story there. I know, yes, a tragic story. I think maybe at some point in the future, we may occasionally, just once in a while, have on a Tuesday a guest who isn't necessarily famous. I mean Dee might be a really good one to know but he's got an interesting story to unpack exactly and we've got I know coming up later in the year a very distinguished psychotherapist yes that's another person that we could talk to about this and about memories yes what are they exactly and why do some stick and some don't what's interesting to me reading the diaries which we're going to come on to now is I read the diaries now which were written on the day or the day after and I realised that I have, in my mind's eye, remembered things differently from how they were.

18:46Well, that doesn't surprise me, Giles, because you're a great embellisher. Storyteller is the line. A storyteller. Not a great embellisher, a great storyteller. And so you take the seed and you make it grow into a beautiful flower. Yes. You know. But I asked you the other day, because I think I've learnt from you the key to telling a good story. It's not always to tell the 100 % truth. No. A story, an anecdote, is quite different from a diary or a factual account. Right. And what you're getting here is the factual account. Yeah. And my mood or interpretation of it at the time. Yeah. But an anecdote is something different.

19:30An anecdote is something totally different. Because I don't think I realised that, really. I think I sometimes tell anecdotes, What I think are anecdotes. And I'm trying to give people what actually happened. Oh, no. And that's not good at all. An anecdote needs a good payoff. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So you think this diary is 100 % true to what happened? It was written at the time. What's interesting is I occasionally realise I've censored things. I censored myself at the time. Yes. That maybe I was more hurt or more humiliated or made more of a mistake. I mean, the truth about a diary is if you're not honest with yourself, there is no point.

20:08Yeah. So I don't think I've come across anything here when I say the reverse of what I felt. But sometimes I think I may have said less than what I felt. It's understandable. But let's see. Yeah. Okay. We're now, oh, it's a new year. I'm in my second year at Oxford University. This is January 1969. I'm still 20 years of age. and, well, I think by the end of January I'll be back at university. So I'm at New College, Oxford, trying to be everything and I think Michelle is still my girlfriend. Thursday, 30th January, 1969. The post includes another effusive letter from Sir Gerald Nabarro, MP, who is happy for me to interview him and he closes, for preliminary reading, a miscellany of photocopies of recent contributions to the press and speech extracts.

21:03And also ready to be interviewed is Yehudi Menuhin, back from India last night, off to Berlin this morning. He does, however, have an important message he would like to share. It is this. More than anywhere else, the university must be an institution of integration and whole food is inseparable from the whole man. That's it. That's the message he sent me. he believed in whole food and grains and all that sort of thing oh it's actually about whole food it's not a metaphor no it is whole food i think he was into all that sort of thing well it was big at this point oh yeah i hope the diary is a time capsule it is saturday the 1st of february 1969 i spent the afternoon with bruce forsyth interviewed him for an hour and watched his pantomime babes in the wood of the new theater the panto is very weak and he knows it god it's thin stuff but it's only eight weeks and the money's not bad i don't really like pantomime it's audiences i like i like to work them and win them he is 40 and the ultimate pro he sees himself as an all-round entertainer not a comic with a mission or philosophy like tony hancock or frankie hard thinking about it only gets you depressed he says i just do it and then have a round of golf.

22:25He appeared absolutely sure of himself, completely contented and wholly unprofound. And his advice to anyone going into the business, remember, only half the people will ever like you. Don't let the other half get you down, the bastards. He was quite funny, in a mirthless sort of way. But history should know this. On a cold Saturday afternoon, in a far from full barn of a theatre in a really tatty hand-me-down panto, Bruce Forsyth gives his all. He comes onto that stage like a whirlwind and for three hours he does not let go. He's a trooper with star quality. Wow. Yeah.

23:17Thursday, 6th February 1969. Generous letter from Garth Lean leading light of the moral rearmament movement and Jeff Stad following the ISIS idol interview Tony Holden did with me. You are refreshingly honest, he says. My only anxiety for you is not that you should have too much ambition, but too little. For I believe you can, if you are willing, do a great deal for the world, far more than perhaps you think. That's nice. I'm sorry to report that I let the world down badly tonight Among the guests at the Union for the debate on morality was Dominic Behan Irish songwriter and Republican younger brother of the more famous Brendan Behan and son, so he told me, of one of the leading IRA men responsible for killing any number of British soldiers during the Irish War of Independence Because I wanted to talk to him about his brother I was asked to look after him I failed to put it mildly the man is mad, bad and very dangerous to know when he arrived he was already wild with drink and I simply found him impossible to control he ranted, he rambled, he lurched around the president's office alternately breaking into song and demanding more drink he asked me to show him where the lavatories were I said I'd take him down to them he stumbled down the stairs from the president's office and, on the landing, proceeded to undo his flies and produce his member for me to admire.

24:50I'm bursting, he declared, and then, turning towards the wall, walked quite sedately down the corridor, peeing profusely against the wall as he went. Don't, I bleated. That's William Morris wallpaper. It's original. Fuck William Morris, he cried, warming to his task and spraying the precious wool with ever greater gusto. He was a socialist, I called out. Fuck socialism, he declared, turning to me triumphantly and shaking the final drips in my direction. What a nightmare. The historic wallpaper is seriously damaged. That is hilarious, Giles. Did that really happen? No exaggeration to that at all.

25:34Oh my goodness. That happened exactly as I wrote about it on the night. And he was just out of control. There was nothing I could do. extraordinary i've never known anything like it then or since but these are this is the real william morris original wallpaper so can you still see this i think they've now covered it with glass or plastic to protect it it had to be repaired and i mean it was severe damage this was a drunken man urinating all over the original william morris wallpaper it's also the second time in a month you've seen a grown man's penis you know well thank you for pointing that out i hadn't actually thought about that yes it's all happening to me once it's james robertson justice uh who behaved totally respectably good and this time it was dominic behan what a nightmare what a nightmare wow wednesday 19th february 1969 last night an interminable outs romeo and juliet at the playhouse.

26:38What happened to the promised two hours traffic of our stage? This morning, train to London. I test at 11.30am. Lunch at 5h. That was my parents' flat. What do I want for my 21st? Since I drink so much coffee, I suggested an electric percolator or a Kona machine or some such. But on reflection, I'm thinking that may be too extravagant. Money is very tight at the moment. Poor Pa. 4.45, tea at the House of Commons with Sir Gerald Nabarro, Conservative MP for South Worcestershire. The Palace of Westminster is a wonderful building. The tea was excellent. Sir Gerald is utterly preposterous. He is 55, 5 feet 5 inches tall and appears on television more than any other MP.

27:32With his mutton-chop whiskers, his five cars numbered nab 1 to nab 5, he's a self-created commons character, Westminster's Mr Toad. His views are appalling. He said to me today, I'm not willing to be told by law that I must love my coloured neighbour otherwise I shall be fined or sent to prison? Naturally, he can't abide revolting students especially those currently on strike at the LSE. I expect undergraduates to behave like gentlemen not undisciplined hooligans. Essentially, it's all down to a decline in moral standards and there are only three remedies, according to Sir Gerald. Bring back the noose, the lash and national service.

28:19he was ludicrous but i liked him and he seemed to like me he's gone out of his way to give me a massive background material cuttings cartoons photographs he's even volunteered to let me have the services of his researcher to help draft the article he is publicity mad thursday 20th february 1969 this is my week for parliamentary characters yesterday bowled Sir Gerald, today the dashing Jeremy Thorpe, MP for North Devon. At the union tonight, the 39-year-old leader of the Liberal Party literally leapt over one bench and then another as he bounded towards me. He greeted me as though I was the most important and exciting person he had ever met.

29:04He has a foxy look and a glint in his eye and huge energy. I was charmed and impressed, but not inspired. He reminded me a little of Norman St. John Stevens. I didn't entirely trust him and he didn't entirely trust me. Friday 28th February 1969 Not my finest hour. I was at St. Anne's with Michelle lying on her bed feeling sick. At 5pm I was due in the red room at New College to be in the line-up for the sherry party to meet the Right Honourable Edward Heath, MP, leader of Her Majesty's loyal opposition and my hero. At 4.30pm I said to Michelle, I'm not well enough, I can't face it. At 4.45pm I changed my mind and decided that it was important to go.

29:58I ran all the way. I burst through the door of the Red Room and joined the end of the line just as the great man was being brought down it. As he shook my hand and heaved his shoulders, I heaved mine and threw up all over his brown suede shoes. Yes, I met the leader of the Conservative Party and literally vomited as I did so. Oh dear. I made my excuses and left. I ran straight back to Michelle and bizarrely felt much, much better. It's now 1am and I feel utterly fine. Tonight, we're going to What the Butler Saw, the Joe Orton farce at the New Theatre with Sir Ralph Richardson. And I'm really looking forward to it.

30:45Well, you usually do feel better after you've been sick, don't you? So you were sick on Sir Edward Heath's shoes. Yep. Did he remember that? Years later, he didn't. Because I did get to know him years later when I was an MP. I was his whip for a while and indeed became quite friendly with him, visited his house and I still have a connection. with the Edward Heath Charitable Foundation. But no, no, it really wasn't my finest hour. Anyway, the joy of this is I keep moving on. These little disasters. We don't let it stop you. Monday, 3rd of March, 1969. The sun is shining. This is the beginning of what is going to be a good week.

31:27I've decided to go for librarian at the union. That way, I can have a go at the presidency next term and get it for Michaelmas, which will be ideal. Tonight, I'm going to the Moulin Rouge, which is a cinema, to catch a Czech film, Disappearing Trends. Tomorrow, I'm going to London to address the Fabians on the subject of prisons and prison art. Right now, I'm off to my tutorial with Alex de Jong. I will read my essay on Marivaux, and he will talk about Baudelaire. and hunting and possibly the Russian Revolution and Gerard de Nerval. He's young and wild and actually quite wonderful. We will sit in his room with the sun pouring in, drinking sherry at 11 in the morning, discussing life and love and art and poetry.

32:19This is what being at Oxford in the week that I turn 21 should be about. He was my tutor. Lovely. And he is now, I think, recognized as a sort of world authority on of all people Rasputin. I think he's written the definitive book on Rasputin. He left a new college and went to America and became, you know, head of some department at some grand American university. But he was, and of course he was only a few years older than me. I think he had a wife who was into hunting, which is why he was hunting. And he used to, I remember he had a riding crop in the room. He would strut about with the riding crop.

32:59Very good. I love a tutor with a kind of look, a pose. We had Jonathan Barnes and he dressed entirely in 18th century clothes, frock coat, kind of ruffle shirt and britches and buckle shoes and tights, sort of whatever, some sort of stockings the whole time. I mean, you're brilliant. it is brilliant yeah and i hope i hope it's allowed still to go on a bit yeah i don't know i'll ask sylvie when she gets there is there anyone dressing interestingly because it just adds so much color to the place you want to be also i think you've got to learn i mean university is about learning to the rest of the world you already know your home you know your parents you know the world you've been in it's now discovering a different world another world sometimes one that makes you uncomfortable or strange odd eccentric yeah i love it sunday the 9th of mar oh this is oh my gosh sunday the 9th of march 1969 i am now 21 years of edge i'm not amused but there's nothing to be done about it so there we are the day itself went well it began nicely with my letter appearing in the times a clarion call for equality in the home we then had a family outing to the theater royal drury lane to see mame with ginger rogers it's not a great show only one hit song and miss rogers alas now has the look of a very mature sugar plum fairy her dancing involved her standing a little unsteadily center stage with her right arm raised high and her left foot gently tapping the floor just about in time to the music.

34:46It was good to have seen her in the flesh and of course we cheered dutifully but it wasn't memorable. Top hat was a long time ago. Post May we made our way to the singing chef in Connord Street where a feast was served. Anniversaire de Gilles Alpe-Maritime. I had the pâté de foie de volaille, then the oeuf mimosa, followed by the gigot rôti à l 'amiral with riz au saffron and ratatouille niçoise. There was salad, cheese, and a pièce montée, meringue and cream and chocolate mousse, to accompany the ritual singing. It was fine, it was fun. Michel had volunteered to do something at the flat, but Ma was keen to go out, so we did.

35:34I was very conscious of the cost, so was pa as i type this i'm looking at the menu that everybody signed last night and i see that pa has signed it charles brackets poor papa oh the parents gave me 21 pounds and i received assorted gifts of a guinea and two 21 shilling book tokens all very welcome also from joint services liaison organization villa spiritus bon a letter from my godfather john pace i haven't read this in so long harriet let's hope i get through it i feel it's going to be one of these rather touching ones anyway some vague non-conformist strain in my background urges me to take a high model ground with the young but i know so much about your parents your environment your interests and the demands of the world in which you will live i hope for at least another 70 years that i can only say i wish you a sense of vocation and purpose in what you do it is probably too much to hope for happiness at least for long periods i've experienced no little pride in being your godfather not just because you get your name in the papers but just because i see you as the product

36:55but just because i see you as the product of so much love and sacrifice and warmth as well as the inheritor of so many gifts that i have every reason to know pride in what you've already accomplished and in what lies ahead he was a remarkable man my godfather i didn't really know him well but he was very soldierly in his bearing and my parents i think got to know him around the time that I was born after the war when they were all stationed in Germany there's a PS to this day's entry a lovely letter it is a lovely it is it is a lovely letter it is a lovely letter and good to have taken the trouble to write it yes uh I'm very conscious nowadays as you know of writing letters and I try to when somebody dies I try I had a friend who died recently and I'm so cross with myself.

37:46I knew he was dying. He told me he was dying. And I spoke lovingly to him and I sent him an immediate email. And then I said, I must write him a proper letter, letter. And by the time I wrote the proper letter, letter, he had died. So I wrote to his widow. But I think a good letter, well, this is an example of a good letter. A good letter is worth writing. P.S. This is the P.S. written on the day. P.S. Golda Meir, a widow aged 70, has become Prime Minister of Israel.

38:24Tuesday, 18th March 1969. In the Daily Mail this morning, there's a delightful photograph of me and Michelle sipping champagne on board a private aeroplane. The headline reads, a party in the sky for michelle the story reveals that yesterday was michelle's 22nd birthday and because she had never been on a plane before i hired one at 12 pounds 10 shillings for the hour and took her for a birthday spin putting a bottle of champagne aboard her reaction i'm afraid i felt rather queasy now the truth michelle's birthday was last week not yesterday and of course she has been on a plane before with me at christmas i didn't hire this plane or pay for the champagne john newt the daily mail photographer did we cooked up the story between us and the airplane never left the ground we just took the photo and scarpered thus it seems our picture stories created for the Daily Mail.

39:30Ah, wow. I learned quite a lot about the workings of the press in the 1960s when I was a student. Very interesting. And a good exemplar of what we were talking about earlier about the difference between fact, fiction, anecdote, diary. And here we are making up a story. Making up a story. I'm sure the editor of the Daily Mail thought it was genuine. Oh, really? Well, possibly. The photographer sent it in with those words. Yeah. What's not to believe. No questions asked. Exactly. And John Newton would be getting paid for the photograph and he will give us some money for the story. Yeah. So, anyway.

40:05But maybe everything's improved since then. I think it has a little bit, hasn't it? Since the phone hacking scandal and all that stuff. We can hope so. Saturday the 22nd of March, 1969. In Gibraltar, John Lennon has married Yoko Ono. The happy couple are now enjoying a week-long bed-in for peace in the presidential suite of the Hilton Hotel, Amsterdam. Here in London, we've had nuptials of our own. Jennifer Branworth has married Peter Wolverden at St. Marylebone Parish Church. The bride wore black-rimmed spectacles and a pale grey dress. For some reason, she felt white was inappropriate. Michelle came to London for the occasion, but did not attend the ceremony because she had to lend her black cape to Hairstow, who otherwise would have had no outer garment to wear.

40:53Anyway, it all passed off smoothly enough, and the reception of the flat was informal and jolly. Pa was in an especially buoyant mood, explaining as he uncorked the sparkling wine that a bottle should open like a woman with a sigh and not a pop. Unlike Pa to be vulgar, history please note I have never ever heard him use bad language. I have perhaps heard him say bloody once, but nothing else. Peter, that's the bridegroom, was a bit vague and vacant through it all, like the Dormouse, but with his head still in the teapot. But there were no scenes and a very jolly musical send-off orchestrated by Peter's composer-conductor brother Guy Wolfenden and featuring a range of medieval instruments.

41:40The honeymoon will be spent abroad. Pa spent most of the day saying, two down, one to go, which is ridiculous because Hester is not going to get married. she is a lesbian and pa and ma's attempts to find a husband through the personal column of the new statesman etc have all ended in tears the last gentleman she went out with was an egyptian widower a doctor i think when after taking her for a meal the poor man made to place his hand upon hers in a perfectly gentlemanly manner she ran screaming out of the lion's corner house into at the strand michelle and i had a chinese this evening she's gone back to oxford i'm just in from taking her to paddington i don't mind marvin gaze heard it through the grapevine but in fact i'm listening to flanagan and allen which i prefer and i'm about to sort through a mountain of correspondence sir gerald nabado would like 12 copies of isis he wants to give our interview greater exposure and likes the idea of a sequel.

42:47I would certainly be most happy to cooperate with you in this important matter. Monday 28th April 1969. This morning I tape recorded a long conversation with Hester about her work at the Springfield Hospital tooting. The reality of life inside Britain's mental hospitals is harsh and unseen. We're not interested. We do not want to know. Hess has a ward with 50 beds. There are four nurses and a sister. There simply aren't the staff to do the job properly. Sometimes, Hess told me, I've lifted bodily a patient into bed when I've known I should have waited for another nurse so that we could have lifted her in a more dignified way.

43:29But you just haven't got the time. Our old patients hate having baths. They struggle and scream and hit and spit and scratch. There are always supposed to be two nurses in the bathroom, but it can't always be done. And then this business of one flannel, one towel per patient. You've got 50 patients, and you want to make them nice for visiting. What do you do? You take a trolley in. Well, you're not going to take one with 50 flannels and 50 towels to wash their faces, no. And the hands might well be dirty, because senile patients have dirty habits. So, you'll be wiping one person's shitty hands with the towel you go on to the next person and wipe their face with it oh on this ward for 50 patients if you get six visitors you're lucky obviously the patients have been there a long time 25 to 30 years some of them and they don't have anyone what an existence 25 years gazing out onto the cemetery.

44:28The ward's only outlook is over the cemetery. Oh, that's terrible. There are 1 ,400 beds in the hospital and at night, just one doctor on duty between six in the evening and nine the next day. I'm going to write all this up and think about it too. What's to be done? Gosh. This afternoon, I joined Ma and Pa at the Old Bailey. Fred, oh my goodness Fred Ma's lifelong friend from school is up on embezzlement charges this was a man now middle-aged late middle-aged man who'd been at school with with my mother yeah he's a professional man he comes from a highly respectable family oh this is my father he's a professional man he comes from a highly respectable family par chortled when his brother the doctor was imprisoned in the 50s, it was only for interfering with his patients.

45:27Nothing serious. I'm now back in Oxford. Union Standing Committee at 5pm. Supper at the Hong Kong with Michel. Le mise en tour rehearsal at 8pm. Acting in French is not easy, but it's quite fun and it feels different. I'm giving my character an absurdly long nail for his elegant little finger. I'm making it out of a drinking straw. Olivier would approve. even if Jean-Louis Barrault might not. Thursday, the 6th of May, 1969. I took the 8.46 a.m. train to Robertsbridge. Malcolm Muggeridge met me at the station and drove me to his cottage. Have you heard of him? Yeah. He was a writer, broadcaster, and later, I think, a Catholic convert.

46:14He was very famous in his day. He does indeed look like a wizened tortoise, but his movements are spry. and his incisive way with words completely compelling. He has no time for the young today. Trying so hard to be non-conformists in their clothes and their behaviour, they iron away the greatest conformists that have ever been. He is alarmed by what he calls the over-screwing, the over-orgasming, he sees all around. The Iron Curtain countries have not fallen into this particular softness. They've adopted a sort of puritanical ethic for no good reason, but they have. and I think this may be a decisive factor in our future.

46:56Despite having made a fortune lecturing and broadcasting in the US, he has nothing good to say about Americans. Anybody who is on top is odious and all men in power are brutal. I'm afraid men are fated to be ruled by shits. Are there no nice leaders, I asked? It's very difficult to think of one. There are a few who have been sympathetic, Lincoln, for example, but the test for him would have come after the Civil War and the more one looks into him the more one sees that he was a colossal opportunist who didn't really care about the slaves as such he cared about the Union. We are talking at his wooden kitchen table.

47:35His wife Kitty, who went to Beedales and whose aunt was Beatrice Webb, I think said very little but kept us supplied with herbal tea and served nut risoles and a cut-up tomato for lunch. They're both vegetarians. After lunch, Malcolm proposed a drive and a walk, and we clambered uphill and down Dale, with him talking all the while, until we came to the cottage of Leonard Wolfe. He's one of my oldest friends. He's frail now, and deeply pessimistic, of course. He must be. He has no faith. Nevertheless, he's a great friend of mine. I like him very much. You will too. I did, of course. I was honoured to be there.

48:17the old gentleman reminded me of mr badly as we came away malcolm said now you can say that you've shaken the hand that held the hand that wrote the waves much good will it do you he drove me back to the station still talking he wished me well at oxford but made it clear that he regards higher education as mostly a waste of time education has become an ersatz religion people have been encouraged to believe in it as a panacea even as an enlightenment in itself some of the most stupid people one has ever met have been highly educated i mean you see this man who can speak three languages and you think he must be able to tell me something but you could speak 10 languages and still be the most utter bloody fool who ever lived couldn't you you'd be a fool in 10 languages instead of one.

49:11I liked him a lot. What an interesting person. Amazing. I realise now, it's been the blessing of my life, and this is what Rosebud is. I wrote to the interesting people of the day, saying, could I come and interview you? Or would you come to Oxford and do something for me? And many of them replied, as many people kindly reply to Rosebud and come along. So I've spent my life meeting interesting people. and Malcolm Muggeridge was one such person. And just hearing, I mean, I've not looked at that in 50 years. There is some lurking wisdom, isn't there, in some of what you say? Yes, interesting what you're saying about education being a religion because he'd be shocked now, wouldn't he, how many people we send to university and then they end up coming out and having to get a job in Pratt because there's nothing for them to do and they probably don't really learn that much at university either.

50:05And look around the world. Is he not right that all the leaders are shits? Can I just say, I think we have said that word. And we don't use bad language on Roosevelt. Four times this episode. I'm so sorry. But I think we'll just keep this as a little walled garden this episode. Episode, I think, 24. Unfortunately, listeners, we've used the word shit now five times. That's enough shit. Six. and it won't happen again we apologize to anyone of you of a more delicate disposition and i know there are those of you that don't like swearing i respect that i hate swearing particularly in public places but this is a time capsule it is and it's actually and i think funnily enough towards the end of reading that i began to remember how his mouth moved when he spoke yeah and i think so my gentle impression of him um became more real because i did education has become an ersatz religion if you want to see this man um go to um is it called whatsapp no go to youtube and put him malcolm muggeridge in search yeah and you'll find literally hundreds of programs featuring him i remember he was mentioned a lot in adrian mole which is a book I really like because Adrian Mull was a sort of young sued.

51:26He fancied himself as an intellectual and Malcolm Muggeridge was his kind of idol. And it was a joke. But can I just ask you about swearing, actually? Because you say your father, you've never heard your father swear other than he said bloody once. Do you swear? No. What do you think of it? I don't because it's a habit. I don't know. I think it's, I probably think it's a bit lazy. I mean, I love the language. When I did a podcast for several years with my friend Susie Dent, which I suppose is out there somewhere, we did a number of episodes on bad language. And she introduced me to some amazing words, rich and amusing words, that were bad language in their day.

52:13Of course. I mean, Shakespeare was a big... A big user. A coiner. A coiner of wonderful expressions. that might bring some of my favourites along next time we meet. But, Annal, I don't hear you swearing. I think I probably do with some people. So I wouldn't swear with you. And I wouldn't swear with my parents or with my... I didn't used to swear with my children. I was very careful to not swear in front of my children until they were older. But then since they become teenagers, I think I do sometimes, which I regret. Yeah. But no, with friends, I probably do. I don't like it when Michelle swears.

52:47No. Which she occasionally does, not very often. I find it quite uncomfortable. I don't like it. And interestingly, I work a lot. I do stand-up. And I work a lot with a lot of comedians. And have done since I worked with Bernard Manning 50 years ago. And what's interesting, I've heard them doing material with audiences where a swear word isn't required. Or they can't do it. And with an audience where they don't mind the swearing. and the material works quite as well without the swear words. You don't actually need them. Yes. And somehow when people put in a swear word, I think, oh, you're cheating.

53:27Yes, I know what you mean. You're trying to add an extra oomph to it. It doesn't need it. The joke works. Yeah, because it does get a reaction, doesn't it, if you swear? Oh, I mean, I do the current show that I'm doing and I'm touring it again next year in the spring. It has one swear word towards the beginning. I'm quoting somebody, Johnny Rotten of the Sex Pistols. So I use a bad four-letter word. And it's quite interesting, the shock from the audience. Coming from you. Coming from you, they don't expect it. But it does elicit a laugh because it's unexpected. I mean, this sort of brings us back to what we were talking about possibly in the last episode, about the change that happened in the culture in the 60s.

54:08And I think one of those changes was probably that people started to swear more because young people, you know, Johnny Rotten said, Yes. The F word on TV. Absolutely. And indeed, Kenneth Tynan, who we featured here. Swears all day long. Not swears all day long. He deliberately used the F word on television to shock and to bring it out into the open. This is when it sort of began. But I wouldn't, students wouldn't have used it in discourse with one another at that period. And when did that start, do you think? Because now people swear all the time and wouldn't apologise. My children and grandchildren don't.

54:44but then of course I'm listening. Maybe they do and I'm not there. Do you think they do and I'm not there? Probably. I have to ask them. Interesting. We'd love to hear from you about your thoughts on swearing. I know some people really don't like it because I think I did get an email from someone once. I can't remember now why about a swear word. They weren't happy. So we're sorry about the use of the word this episode. It's not a very nice word, is it? No, it's actually, I particularly dislike it. oh do you um it's funnily enough of all the four letter words it's the one i suppose because it's extravagant it's sort of rather ghastly yes um but anyway we hope you enjoyed this episode and if you didn't fuck off i made myself laugh very funny giles goodbye goodbye and apologies next time it'll be a totally wholesome episode pg

55:44Thank you.

56:24That was more Rosebud with music by Phil Leppard, production by Harriet Jane, and in the chair, me, Charles Brandreth. Thank you for listening.