Gyles's diary, episode 25

0:00They often say in life that more is less. I hope you find more Rosebud is more, not less. Enjoy and welcome.

0:26Welcome everybody to More Rosebud. I was about to ask Harriet, my friend and producer, something, well, a bit unexpected. And I'm going to ask her anyway. I was going to ask her before we pressed the button to start recording, but, well, you know, she can always cut it out because she does the editing. And it was this, Harriet. Where are you on eye contact? Oh, I don't know. You could probably tell me better than I can tell you because I'm not aware. Are you aware of it? I think I try and make eye contact but sometimes I probably give up I was with somebody yesterday and I feel bad about this who I wanted the conversation to end I didn't want the meeting to be happening I didn't want the encounter so I was conscious that I was actually looking at my teacup and I wasn't glancing up at them and then when I glanced up at them I felt terribly self-conscious yes and it became a big issue when you start thinking about it it all gets much more complicated than yeah what is the rule i don't know i mean i think you should try and look at somebody as much as you can when it's difficult is when there's more than one person that you're speaking to and then i do struggle because i think sometimes i focus on the person that i'm most engaged with and I ignore other people in the room and I'm interested when I see people that do a really good job of bringing everybody into the group I think you're probably good at that I think I get shy and I end up just looking at one person we know that all the great traumas of the world people you know people who've met Bill Clinton and such like they say oh they're they focus entirely on you but I think that could be quite disconcerting to have somebody just looking at you.

2:15Oh no, too much is too much. Too much is too much, isn't it? There's some men that look at your breasts when you're talking to them. I have, there's the odd man, and it's probably completely self-conscious. They may be averting their eyes. They may be, but it feels as if their eyes drifting down to your breasts. Because I, in order not to be accused of that, I often look at people's foreheads to make sure that I'm not seen to be looking anywhere but at there. So you can't, I mean, if you're a man now, somebody's wearing quite a conspicuous necklace or a brooch, you can't see it. You just don't see it.

2:59Oh, gosh, you have to worry. Oh, you do worry. Poor you. Though I am. You know, we've been doing the diaries of my boyhood years and there's a character called Barnabas, whose nickname was Barnabas, his real name was David Creamer. We should have changed the names for these people, you know, because they're alive. I think he actually ended up as the head of religion at the BBC. Oh, golly. He came from a very distinguished family, a marvellous person. He was a good friend of mine. But I do remember when I was about 14 or 15, he was a year or two older than me, him saying to me, because at assembly at school, which was called jaw, it was a slang because people were jawing at you, talking at you.

3:38We had assembly every night. and after it the whole school went out and you shook hands with every member of staff. The member of staff, they all lined up and we all shook hands with them, which was actually quite a good idea because if you'd had a sort of difficult moment with a teacher during the day, you could look them in the eye or they could look you in the eye and they'd say things like, it's over now, it doesn't matter, or see you tomorrow, or you could say, sorry, whatever. So it was a good moment at the end of the day. but I remember the day he said to me what are you looking at I said I don't know he said all the boys as the girls go out are looking at their breasts oh yeah and it hadn't occurred to me then yeah and of course it's a school of you know 240 children 120 boys 120 girls so it suddenly occurred to me is this really true but it's stuck in my head for 50 years yeah well I think this might be a cliche but i think men are more concerned with visuals possibly i think women are more than men realize too actually but men are taken by the look of stuff yeah breasts and bums and thighs you said that because then you're sorry sorry listeners gosh we were straight into it today are listening to this either going to sleep in which case uh sweet dreams or they're going out their brisk morning run.

5:02The last thing they've heard is me saying breasts, bums and thighs. But what is interesting is, and this may be, I do remember many, many years ago, a, in quotes, girlfriend saying to me, are you a breasts or leg guy? Yes. Well, is that a thing? Well, I mean, we're talking about the 19 years ago. Yeah. You'll just take anything, won't you, Giles? Thank you very much. But I was struck by somebody thinking that and I had not given that any thought. Oh no, that's definitely a thing. Well, clearly. But is it? What I've since wondered is, is it a thing for women to think? Because it would never have occurred to me to think, am I a breasts or legs person?

5:43But I would say, I'm not, given you brought it up and I would not have done so, a bum person. Oh. So no, J-Lo doesn't get you going. You know, the people who've got the... I... Oh, Kim Kardashian. You know, they have people have implants. I do know about that. But I do remember going to a Royal Variety Show and coming down the stairs afterwards. By chance, I happened to be there with the Royal Party. I was maybe writing my book about the Duke of Edinburgh. So we came down the stairs with the Duke of Edinburgh and with the Duke of Edinburgh as a query, who was really keen. He kept saying to the Duke of Edinburgh, Sir, you'll be wanting to meet J.

6:26Lo. What's her full name? Jennifer Lopez. Yeah. Was she around 30 years ago, 20 years ago? She's been around a long time. Yeah. Anyway, she was very petite, but with a very noticeable bottom. Oh, really? And it became... Because I've never seen her, so it really is noticeable. Oh, oh. She was petite, and she was young then. Yeah. And it was clear to me that Duke Van Riefer had no particularly interest in meeting Jennifer Lopez. No. But the Aquari was desperate. So again, saying to her, sir, so I think you ought to meet Jennifer Lopez. And Duke Van Riefer completely sussed him. He said, I don't know what you're after.

6:57Well, fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah. So, well, where is the fair enough? Where is the fair enough? You're complaining about people looking at your breasts. I was just commenting. Can I just say props to you? Do you know that expression? That means big up to you. Congratulations to you for using the word forehead. Because that's what I say. And whenever I say it to people, they say, what? Forehead. That's how I say forehead. It is forehead. Forehead. Forgive me, explain props to me. I think it must be a kind of hip hop. It just means respect to you. Oh, good, respect. It isn't short for anything.

7:39No, I don't know what it is. Because I'm learning lots of new language. I learned language the other day. I was at a charity trustees meeting and it was explained to us by Human Resources. I said something about, well, we're looking forward to some feedback from the team. She said, no, no, excuse me. We don't say anything more. Sorry? You don't say feedback anymore. I said, I don't you? What do you say? Feed forward. Feedback is negative, looking backwards. We're looking forward now. No, Giles, that's not true. Let's learn and look, go forward. Feedback is, oh, negative, negative. Feed forward, feed forward, what I've heard.

8:12What? And now let's feed forward. I'm looking forward to some feed forward from the team. You're not saying that. Yes. Oh, my God. So, I want you to know, listeners, in the Rosebud office, we don't look at each other's breasts, bottoms, or legs, do we? No, and we say the words forehead. But my pins are one of my stronger, wouldn't you agree that my legs, oh, now she's putting a funny face. I don't know if I've seen them out of trousers. You're not even conscious of my legs. I'm wearing my trousers. I'm wearing my Armani trousers still. I haven't seen them out of trousers, Giles. You can only judge legs in tights, shorts.

8:49You can't judge legs under trousers. Oh, I think you can. No. I think you can. And men famously, I know this because, as you know, I've played women in shows often. Men often have really quite good legs. They do. And when I was, I've done two or three, I did a Rocky Horror Show type thing, you know, where you're in tights and suspenders and all that. Oh, God. And the pins were fine. I have, since the death of Giorgio Armani, I remembered I had a Giorgio Armani suit, so I got it out. And respect, what was that word? Props. Props. I could get into it. 1985. Props to you, yeah. Props to me. My slim pins went in.

9:32But I thought with a bloke, you want a tight, tauter bottom, don't you? Yes, I think so. It's not the men wearing their bottoms enlarged. No, no, no, it's women. Yeah. Okay. So, really, where I was beginning is actually catching people's eye, looking in the eye, is trickier than it sounds. And once you become conscious, self-conscious about it, it becomes it's a nightmare it is a night don't don't overthink it don't overthink it but spread the eye favor whatever you do don't look down do look up at people yeah um when i say don't look down i mean don't look away yes at the teacup yeah or the breasts that's the seventh time i've said that one listeners rest assured this was not anticipated and harriet brought it up um um and now i shan't just be looking at her forehead i'll be looking at her parting in the middle of her hair she parts in the middle yeah which is charming oh okay um but it is actually quite disconcerting just to finish on this um never mind looking at people's breasts i now work with a lot of young people who during the summer had bare midriffs oh yes my daughter sometimes has i think a bit too much almost a foot of me it feels like of midriff on show and i i sometimes do something you probably shouldn't do which i say can you put that put it away or cover it up a bit or it's not appropriate for what you're about to do for example your grade five music theory exam oh lord or was it your grade seven music practical is it appropriate to be dressed in that way no the person's examining you playing they don't want to be distracted by your midriff so i told her to go and put something more can i say i think you were right but maybe we're a couple of old codgers i'm not sure bear midriffs are appropriate at work basically agreed and i think at school there is a even though there hasn't there isn't a uniform in her new school there is a dress code which does specify things like no midriffs out that kind of thing.

11:41Is it from John Dunn the line, ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee? Is it John Dunn? Is it John Dunn? I don't know if it is. We'll check that out, but the bell did just signal that it's time for me to read an email, or you to read an email, because it's the diaries. Yes, okay. This is an email to us, to you, Giles, from John White Thompson. Giles, your six-month month anniversary dinner with Michelle at the Elizabeth, when you were landed with a huge bill, and that was something that happened, I think, a couple of episodes ago, reminded me of a similar experience I had on the 27th of October, 1983, John writes.

12:21My girlfriend, Meg, and I had just started our second year at Christ Church College, Oxford, and to celebrate four months together, I decided to take her out for dinner. In those days, Le Casse Croute. Oh, I remember it. And La Sorbonne, there's two restaurants, one much more expensive than the other. I think that's the message here. That is the message. Casse Croute was on the ground floor. Right. Sorbonne was upstairs. I think they were both owned by the same management. Fine. Yeah. Okay. So one is kind of pizza hut and the other one's Pizza Express. But no, it's... No. They were a lot grander than that.

12:58They were French. Yeah. So it was very, very chic. And Casse Croute had a black and white had red and white check tablecloths. Oh, lovely. Yeah, anyway, John says, In those days, Le Casse Croute and La Sorbonne shared the same building on the high street. I booked the former, the cheaper option, as its set menu was within reach. We were shown to our table and presented with huge leather menus. I searched in vain for anything resembling the set menu before it dawned on me that I had, in fact, inadvertently booked La Sorbonne. The bill came to a staggering£38.35. This is in 1983. As my diary recorded, feel full, accept the wallet.

13:50Having said all that, it was the best investment I ever made. Meg and I have been together ever since and are celebrating our 35th wedding anniversary in September. Best wishes, John White Thompson. It's a lovely story and a lovely payoff. And I remember both those restaurants well. The ground floor, which was like a bistro, where they had red and white check tablecloths and candles in a bottle of wine. French onion soup? French, exactly. It was all of that. Followed probably by Tarte à l 'oignon. And then maybe a chocolate mousse. That was fun and informal and nice. And I don't know if we've done that in the diaries yet.

14:38The evening I spent there with Frank Muir and his wife Polly. Yes, we just have. But I don't think you mentioned the name of the restaurant. That's the restaurant we were. Upstairs was the grand restaurant, the Sorbonne. Incidentally, working at these restaurants when we were there were two men who became great friends and went off and opened Le Manoir aux quatre saisons together. Oh, where I went this year with Leon for his birthday. You would, yes. So Raymond Blanc was there working either in the kitchen, so he may have even been a waiter there. Gosh, that's where it all began. That's where it all began.

15:11So upstairs was this rather grand restaurant. And I do remember being there one day when my back went. Oh, this is a theme. This is a theme, because as you know, of weeks um my back has gone again recently and um it's been going off and on all these years but so there i was 1920 with a and i couldn't sit so i took michelle for a meal up there she sat and i i stood opposite oh you had to stand i had to stand to eat because i couldn't sit down i mean i what's it called when it goes into spasm oh have you ever heard about back most people would have just left the restaurant but you just carried on and ate standing up Well, also when it's a date, when it's important, when you're trying to make things work.

15:56Just slightly exhibitionist of you, Giles. I so disagree. That is such a horrible thing to say. That is a horrible thing to say. Oh, sorry. Do you think so? I was so embarrassed by it. Oh, I'm so sorry. So I was sort of half crouched. You can't, you know, you've ordered the food, you've got up there. Oh, gosh. I may have been sitting to begin with. I thought I can't go on like this, so I had to stand.

16:21and slightly exhibitionist. Do you think that's what she thought? She probably thought, oh, what have I done lumbering myself with this fellow with a bad back? She's still with you all this years later, Charles. You mustn't doubt her. And the bad back is still with us too. Maybe there's some connection. Maybe the whole thing's been a complete disaster for both of us. Oh, my child. More than half a century. It all began in this restaurant called the Sorbonne. So it's John and Meg. John and Meg. 35th wedding anniversary in September. So that's about now. So congratulations, you two. And I hope you go for a lovely meal in the expensive option.

16:59And Giles, how long have you and Michelle been together now? Well, people know because they've heard it here. We met on the 6th of June. The 4th of June, actually. Oh, the 4th of June. Yes. Absolutely. I always thought we got married. I know we got married on the 8th of June. I used to say we met on the 6th of June. I now know through reading the diaries for here that it was the 4th of June. So the whole thing has been a disaster from the year one. We've been celebrating on the wrong day. I don't know. And we got, the idea was that we met and then five years later to the day we were going to get married.

17:28But we couldn't because Michelle was then working. She was then working in television and she was in Wales doing a quiz show in Cardiff on the day of the anniversary. As I thought, which was the 6th. Turns out we could have done it two days before. So we had the wedding on the 8th. Nice. And we'll get to it in the diaries. It was memorable, actually. So our anniversary is the 8th. And when is your anniversary? I don't really know. It's about now. Yeah. It's all a bit vague. People have been saying to me with Rosebud, you and Harry, you clearly get on so well and you've now met all these people with interesting stories.

18:10maybe you should have a kind of column for people to send in their problems and you can be like relate counsellors but I don't think we're equipped to do that no I'm not you're coming up to an anniversary can't remember the day of it um I got the date of our meeting anniversary wrong but wedding anniversaries I'm I'm quite good at and yeah I'm not married so it's all I mean you do know that Giles you're flinching I do know that but I do know that you're not married But sometimes we refer to Leon as your husband. Yes. Because you have been together now for a long time. 24 years. Or so. I can't really remember.

18:48No, no, it's September. And it's 2001. I know that. I just can't remember the day. But I was thinking about it. I don't think I, subconsciously, I don't think I feel that I deserve to get married. I think there's something weird and deep like that. to do with childhood abandonment broken marriages yeah there's some it's more than just oh we never got married it's yeah and we have to say this is really interesting we must come back to this actually because i think it is deeply interesting when we didn't get married and we lived together and it was considered quite shocking by certain people and i remember a good friend of ours called cyril fletcher who was an entertainer who was very happily married and he said to me one day oh you'll find it does make a difference when you're married and he didn't know that actually we were already married because we lived together and then we got married but we didn't tell anybody we got married until we were going to have children and why did you do that giles it i now see it as an unkindness to my parents yeah though they'd given us a license to do that because they got married just the better of them yeah the two witnesses yeah um our line was in our heads we're doing it for ourselves not for anybody else but we realized when we're going to have children that we we knew if we're going to have children we would want to be married yeah we knew that for ourselves and then so before the children when when our firstborn was going to be born as it as soon as we knew Michelle was pregnant, we told my parents and we told everybody.

20:28But the reason for the story is that I do think I felt different in my head when I was married, even though nobody else knew. Yes, I'm sure. So it's not the public affirmation. And I think I would love to come back to this, and I don't want us to rush through it because it's such an interesting topic and there'll be lots of people out there of your generation, because in my generation, being 20 years older than you, people got married. Your generation, it began to become less of a thing. Now I think it's a bit of a thing again to get married. Yeah, I think my generation, I'm about to make some generalisations.

21:10I think the generation of my parents, who were married in the 60s, 70s, did a lot of breaking up and divorcing. So I've got lots of friends whose parents were divorced. I mean, at my secondary school, I would say 50 % of people. It was a comprehensive school in Devon. Devon's full of kind of slight dropouty, hippie, bohemian types. They were all getting divorced. My parents separated when I was three. I mean, I don't have no memory of them together at all, except arguing on the front doorstep. so I think we didn't have great models um for marriage so I think that probably did lead some people who are my sort of generation to not do it and I think that's probably why Leon was not into it either because his parents were also separated but I think and I think the pendulum slightly swung back to a more traditional thing I have to say and I've resisted saying this to Leon who I've met who I like very much and to Michelle my wife likes very much indeed as well I know I sense that if Leon came in on your anniversary which he knows and produced a ring and went down on 1D and said will you marry me I'll fix the date you'd say yes he just won't he won't organize himself but the good news is that he does listen to Roosevelt so who knows what will happen this one will run and run I have to tell you listeners my diaries for 1969 are we on 69 still?

22:42yeah are going to be a bit of an anticlimax after our conversation. Wait, I just need to ask you one question off the back of that. I don't like that expression, off the back of. Anyway, off the back of that conversation. How did your parents react when you told them you were married and you had been... They were the sweetest people and they accepted totally and they were thrilled to hear... I mean, I told them in the same breath, we're having a baby and we're married. Oh, wonderful. But they weren't at all upset they hadn't gone to the wedding? Not for a moment because of their own experience.

23:15Yeah. Because they ran away, got married secretly. Yeah. My mother's mother was quite, everyone was distressed because they felt it wasn't appropriate. They shouldn't have got married. My mother was too young. She had to give up university. Oh, yes, of course. And it was before the Second World War. It was a proper elopement. And to get, you know, to have got in first, she got into both Oxford and London University. She went to London University to do Indian law. She wanted to go back to India. where she'd been born to be a lawyer there. And her mother had sacrificed everything to make this possible and then to give it up to marry my father, who was not considered a totally reliable person.

23:58So they never complained at all. Your dad was probably relieved he didn't have to pay for a wedding. He'd had a few weddings to pay for. Well, yes, yes, he did, my sister's weddings. so it's a very interesting topic we will i promise you this listeners we're going to get some of harriet's diaries in due course we've been sorry guys oh no it makes me sound hopeless we've got to get through mine first and uh we're only i'm only 21 i know this sounds like such an awful excuse but it's really hard to explain how busy i am and i know you're busier jars because you're busier than virtually anyone in the whole country but i just struggle i mean i sometimes i work till midnight and I get up the next day at 6am.

24:41And the truth is, if Leon did propose to you, you wouldn't have time for a wedding. No way! When would we do it? I would be very interested, actually, we will return to this topic. I'd be very interested to hear from listeners, Rosebud people, who've had either similar experiences to yours or different experiences, same sort of generation. And does it make a difference? Was Siddle Fletcher right when he said to me it will be different for you and your wife when you're married something will change and something did change um and indeed i know it changed i mean i mustn't start crying now but you said to me recently um maybe i was complaining about something and you said to me for better for worse for richer for poorer and sickness and health you know quoting the traditional marriage vows.

25:40And obviously that is part and parcel of it. You have made an affirmation. Yeah. You know, so I don't know. But there will be people out there who've had interesting reflections on this. Of course. Katie, don't come to us for advice because we know nothing. We're a couple of hopeless people who may have got it right or wrong. But it's a fascinating topic. It certainly is. So what are we doing today? Diaries? Diaries. And we're in May 1969. I'm in my second year at Oxford University. I feel I'm riding high. I've tried to be president of the Union, the Domain Society, and failed, but I've bounced back.

26:14I think I'm now secretary or librarian. I've achieved some of my goals. I'm wanting still, I think, to be editor of ISIS. I'm writing for it regularly and char with the newspaper. I'm acting in different plays. It's all going quite well. And I've become a bit of a known as a bit of a broadcaster. I'm a bit of a personality, even though I'm only 21 and just 21. This seems to be just before the beginning of term, or maybe I've come up to London for the day. Is it term time in May at university? Is it the summer term? I think it is. And they call it the Hillary term for some reason. Yeah. Anyway.

26:53Yes, it is. It's the summer term. But I seem to be in London. Monday, 12th of May, 1969. I went to the BBC today in Portland Place to give my talk on women's rights on Woman's Hour. This came about as a result of my birthday letter to the Times about equality at home, men doing the chores as well as women, etc. The producer, Jocelyn Ryder-Smith, seemed vastly intrigued that a young man should be ready to help with the ironing. I arrived promptly at 11.30am, as requested. Alarmingly, it then took 30 minutes and more for me to reach the studio. I had to be escorted. All visitors to the BBC are escorted.

27:37And my escort was an elderly commissioner with the face of Charles Lawton and the gait of Richard III. This old boy moved incredibly slowly, dragging his lame foot behind him, sighing with every step and losing his way at every turn. Though he claimed to have been working at the BBC, Since before the war. Oh, nothing's changed. That sounds just like the BBC now. When eventually I reached the woman's hour suite, half a dozen female heads turned in my direction accusingly. We were expecting you at 11.30. I can't say the atmosphere thawed much. After the rehearsal, it is a live broadcast, but everything is scripted, including the interviews.

28:21Nothing is left to chance. We adjourned to a room adjacent to the studio for lunch. A formal affair with waitress service and a strict seating plan. It was like eating at high table in a women's college with Marjorie Anderson. She was the presenter of Woman's Hour from, I think, about 1958 until she retired in the early 70s. With Marjorie Anderson presiding as the Wharton. She was at all times gracious, but nevertheless terrifying. The broadcast when it happened was fine. My throat went dry as I read out my piece. But I got through it. And Jocelyn Ryder-Smith said we should meet up to discuss doing more.

29:02I am to receive a fee of£10 plus£3 travelling expenses. Gosh, how interesting. I'm quite impressed. I think it's my first appearance on BBC Radio, Radio 4. May have been called the home service in those days. But I started out on Woman's Hour. Yeah, very good. Giles, and I love your description of these sort of blue stockinged, slightly ferocious. It was like that. And in fairness to the BBC, all the commissionaires, I think, were ex-army people who were disabled. And they were giving opportunities to these former people. And great that you got paid. You wouldn't get paid now. £10. I was giving a talk.

29:43Yeah, but I don't think... I don't think they pay you for a talk, don't they? I don't know if they do now. But£10 is quite a lot of money. It would be£100. Yeah, I think they're trying not to pay you now.

29:58Thursday, the 15th of May, 1969. A girl from the Central Office of Information brought a Yugoslav film crew to my room to record an informal conversation with English students about the modern British attitude to marriage. This is Swinging England, and apparently we are in the vanguard of a sexual revolution that's set to sweep the world. I arranged for Michelle and Mark Hoffman to be the other students on parade. I think we were fairly honest. We said that life is full of contradictions. Most boys want to marry a virgin, but don't necessarily expect to get married as virgins themselves. Which, incidentally, Harriet, was absolutely the view, I think, at the time.

30:41We said that, yes, nowadays some young people feel that sex before marriage is acceptable, so long as it is in a loving relationship. But that a lot of young people, probably a majority of girls and a large minority of boys, still believe you should not go the whole way outside marriage. Yes, more and more girls are going on the pill, but no, young people in Britain do not believe in free love. That's entirely newspaper talk. In fact, we said it's the newspapers and TV people like you who seem obsessed with sex. We're just getting on with our lives. How interesting. And I would say now from the vantage point 2025 that that is probably an accurate reflection of young people's views of sex outside marriage at the end of the 1960s.

31:31Yeah. Very sane, really. Really, very, very sane. But still, most girls and, well, most girls and a lot of boys thinking, you know, you don't go the whole way until you're married. Wednesday the 11th of June 1969 another day another party last night Tony Holden we left quite early Michelle said people were smoking drugs I said I didn't think so she says I'm very naive tonight Mark Hoffman's party in Worcester Gardens no drugs plenty of Pimms the lake looking wonderful and the guests all dressed as Oxford's idea of how hippies should dress Basically quite conventional, except for the odd flowing scarf and beaded headband.

32:20In the appearance stakes, Duncan Farrowell took the honours. Stalking across the lawn, dressed as a cross between Lord Byron and Oscar Wilde, and wearing makeup. Duncan Farrowell is at Magdalen, and I think occupies Oscar Wilde's old rooms. The great man's ghost casts a long shadow. tomorrow is the day that does me or undoes me quite it's the presidential debate the motion that the british press is both vulgar and dishonest i am opposing the motion so the odds are stacked against me my opponent in the presidential election is the treasurer the reverend robert hood he's tall dark and handsome charming courteous credible the odds are definitely stacked against me however being a graduate and a clergyman may count against him we shall see the voting takes place tomorrow there'll be no results until friday night so this is another union this is me trying to be president again again at the end of my second year you've only just failed in the first is there one every term we're rushing through there's a new president every term we're rushing through the diary i failed to be president my first attempt this was my ambition i had been secretary stood for president lost by a few votes stood again to be librarian working my way up again was now librarian trying to be president i wanted to be president in the autumn term when all the freshers come when the debates are full this was my goal this was my chance so there's one every term because i guess at oxford it will happen so quickly you have to get through you gotta get you gotta get on with it yeah friday the 13th a long auspicious day i didn't hang around the union i stayed away deliberately i tried to work on a french prose on rainbow on moliere at six o 'clock i went over to christchurch for william waltergrave's party all very civilized.

34:23William belongs to the non-brain school of Old Etonian. He really is a gentleman. He has the brains, the looks, the ambition, but does he have the bite to get to the top? We shall see. At seven, I went to All Souls to dine with Robert Jackson. Warden Sparrow obliged me with some more of his verses. My favorite was Growing Old. I'm accustomed to my deafness to my dentures I'm resigned. I can cope with my bifocals, but oh dear, I miss my mind. Oh, that's brilliant. He was a brilliant man. Anyway, Warden Sparrow obliged me with some more of his verses, and over the port and dessert, showed me the memoirs of Charles Osman, who became a fellow in the 1880s and left a memorable account of the fellowship examination.

35:13In the history paper, Osman was asked to ramble around all manner of topics the Greek conception of the state the social conditions of medieval Scotland the claim of Napoleon to be the successor of Charlemagne the history of the crusades and so forth amazing the account concluded there remained the paper of translation from five languages ancient and modern when I found four of them easy enough this man Charles Osman was supposed to be one of the most brilliant people of all time So this was a, we were talking about All Souls a few episodes ago. This is All Souls. This is a graduate-only college.

35:49This is what the exam would have been. Wow. Yeah. These were clever clogs. After dinner, Robert came to the union with me for the announcement of the election result. It was clear-cut. I won by a handsome margin. Yes, I am president of the Oxford Union. But what is odd is this. I've achieved exactly what I wanted And still, I'm not satisfied Almost as I heard the result In the very moment of elation I felt a sense of emptiness Almost a pang of disappointment Even as I heard of my triumph I thought and felt So what? That's done. What next? I have everything And it's never enough I didn't linger in the union bar I took in the applause commiserated with the reverend hood did my best to look self-deprecating and skedaddled i ran tost anne's and there believe it or not i managed to spoil everything i was over emotional melodramatic self-indulgent and ridiculous boring is the word michelle used as a consequence instead of enjoying what should have been one of the happiest nights of my life I had a miserable night.

37:08I'm an idiot. I'm writing this on Saturday morning. I got up early, went out first thing and bought some carnations and took them over to Michel before breakfast. I'm now going off to the Union. Wednesday the 18th of June, 1969. Monsieur Pompidou is the new president of France and I am the new president of the Oxford Union. I've had lots and lots of lovely messages, telegrams, cards, letters I've acknowledged them all I've also coped with the backwash from the hoax which turned out not to be as ghastly as I feared Someone, I really have no idea who sent out invitations in my name to a celebratory party in my room I only discovered what was afoot when I got messages from John Sparrow Warden of All Souls and Maurice Bower, Master of Wadham expressing their regret that they could not come I had no idea who had been invited.

38:07I had no idea what to do. In the event, I called the secretaries of various other heads of colleges and explained that I'd been the victim of a practical joke. Everyone was very understanding, and some expressed regret that they'd not been asked, because had they been, they would have come. Lady Hayter, she was the wife of the warden of my new college, sent me a note. Perhaps your practical joker was arranging a celebration party for you. I wonder if you chose the expensive way and had it, or what happened? I do hope practical jokes aren't coming into fashion again. They've been rare since my parents' generation.

38:44At least I think so. That's an interesting observation. Because I think in the 1920s, there were lots of ridiculous practical jokes. People turning up in Oxford pretending to be the president of obscure countries. Yes, I think I remember... There's a famous one, isn't there? One of our guests saying that their parent had been a great practical joker. It was obviously a bit of a thing, yeah. In his letter, Parr says that Kenneth Tynan had similar problems in his day. Apparently, Tynan, when attacked by Hartis, would fall to the ground, rolling about, crying out, My hip! My hip! Apart from Parr's, my favourite note is the one from Michael Beloff at Trinity.

39:25Congratulations on your election to the presidency. A revaluation of the currency. If anyone can turn the Union's dance macabre into a frog, you can. What's a frog? A frog was a dance of the day. It was a wee. It was a kind of, we're doing a frog. They even had a song, I think, that went with it. It was like a twist or something. Yeah, yeah, a cool dance. A cool dance. Yeah. Tuesday, 24th June 1969. I'm going to London to record a Woman's Hour discussion on the Generation Gap. I'm then returning to Oxford for the Queen's College Ball I'm then accompanying Michelle to Bournemouth Degree done, she has hopes for a job in TV And we have irons in the fire But for now, she's going to work for an electronics company Called CETA Electronics Doing public relations, etc They make boards for circuit testing Whatever that may be Judy Garland has committed suicide She was 47 but looked much older the Reverend Peter Delaney of course was first on the scene having married Gin my sister last year and Jen my other sister this year he married Miss Garland to her fifth and final husband in between on Sunday when the news broke he rushed round to Miss Garland's Meriburn apartment to administer the last rites it's all very sad apparently she took the stem of a rose and tried to swallow it so that the thorns would destroy her throat.

40:59For me, Meet Me at St Louis is even more wonderful than The Wizard of Oz. Later, Prince Charles was invested as Prince of Wales at Carnarvon Castle today. I watched some of it on the Union's brand new colour TV. It wasn't very interesting. The Queen wore a hat like a spaceman's helmet. Lord Snowden came dressed as buttons. Prince Charles is big ears. it was all a bit contrived and passionless. Sunday the 6th of July 1969. Via Bournemouth and Southampton in filthy weather I made the long journey to Petersfield to attend my old French teacher George Smith's gala lunch in his room at B-Dales. I went because he asked me, which was kind of him, and because Diane Cilento and Edna O 'Brien were the guests of honour.

41:50Now, Diane Chalento, as I remember, she was an Australian actress and she was married to Sean Connery. And of course, Edna O 'Brien was a wonderful Irish writer who died not long ago. I shouldn't have bothered. Because of the trains, I arrived late. Because of the rain, I arrived wet. Because George was nervous, there was an unreal, awkward atmosphere in the air. I was seated at the wrong end of the table. Not that the conversation amounted to much. Miss Chilento was not as beautiful as I had hoped and not at all gossipy. We wanted to hear about life with Sean Connery but I don't think she referred to the great man once.

42:28And as for Miss O 'Brien she's so Irish, so gentle and fae and pixie-like that you do want to give her a good kick up the backside. When I told her that Girl with Green Eyes was our best-selling novel when I ran the paperback bookshop at B-Dells she simply closed her eyes and stroked my hand. I did not remind her of the first time we had met when she came to look round the school as a prospective parent and I was appointed to escort her. We reached B-Dawn and there on the far side of the room was a boy. I think it was Nick Waits. He was naked except for a strategically placed guitar. Instead of sparing the poor chap's blushes and retreating, Miss O 'Brien stood transfixed.

43:16Is there a more beautiful sight on God's earth than that? A pure, hairless boy with soft brown skin on the very edge of manhood. Is that what she did? That's what she did. That's fantastic. Now, what is interesting is this is 1969. And as the years went by, I was lucky enough to meet her when I was a grown-up. And I last saw her only a very short while before she died. last year she came to a party that I organized to celebrate Shakespeare lots of amazing people were there and she was one of them and she held my hand and stroked it and talked exactly like that and I almost became that beautiful boy and she was by then very old and very ill so she was wonderful and she was a wonderful writer too I got back to Westbourne to find that poor Michelle has been turned out of her flat.

44:12The landlady discovered that Michelle had had a visitor who stayed overnight, me, and was not having that sort of thing in her respectable residence. How she discovered, we do not know. We were so careful. I sneaked in, I crept around the room on all fours until it was time to draw the curtains. Anyway, Michelle was instructed to pack her bags and get out there and then we found refuge in separate rooms at mrs smith's b &b oh dear so that's what the world was like at the end of the 1960s yeah monday the 21st of july 1969 that's one small step for a man one giant leap for mankind today neil armstrong became the first man to walk on the moon and i saw it happen i wouldn't have done i was fast asleep but at about 3 a.m pa in dressing gown and pajamas came into my room and woke me and said you have to watch this i'm glad i did the picture was fairly faint and fuzzy but we saw it as it happened armstrong the commander of apollo 11 climbed down the ladder and stepping off the eagle onto the moon's surface It was 3.56am London time.

45:29Wow. Thursday, the 24th of July, 1969. Beverly Nichols was president of the Oxford Union exactly 50 years ago. I've invited him back to speak in a special debate to mark the anniversary. Today, he invited me to lunch. It was memorable. He is delightful, about 70, a little stooped, but vigorous and full of charm. He met me at the railway station and drove me to his house, a beautiful 18th century cottage overlooking Ham Common, near Richmond in Surrey. He and his friend, Cyril Butcher, had prepared lunch themselves, and it was delicious. Quite perfect, in fact. Prawn mousse, cheese souffle, cucumber salad, chilled sans serre.

46:15Ooh, that sounds nice. It was wonderful. Oh. Cyril fussed and served and cleared, but did very little of the talking. Beverly chattered all the time. But it was wonderful stuff. He has known everyone, from Churchill to Edward VIII to Nellie Melba and Noel Coward. He had extraordinary stories to tell of Somerset Maugham's cruelty to his wife, Siri. He should never have married. His marriage brought out the viciousness that lurks beneath the surface in so many men. Beverly said his own father had been a cruel man, an alcoholic like Maugham. My father tried to destroy my mother and me, and I tried to murder him.

46:54Yes, I deliberately set out to kill my own father with a garden roller as it happens. I regret to say I failed. Wow. Beverly Nichols was a hugely famous writer in his day. Did he write The Tree That Sat Down? He could well have done. It's a children's book. Yeah, he did write some children's books. It's brilliant. He is brilliant. He wrote his first autobiography when he was 25, called 25. And he was famous from the 1920s onwards. eventually he was a well-known columnist from magazine like woman or woman's own and became famous for his love of cats he had a cat's calendar each year but he was sharp he would have been a wonderful rosebud guest this these revelations that he gave reminds me of some of the conversations we've had if you're listening to this and haven't yet listened to our episode with anthony horowitz his portrait of his father is extraordinary isn't it yes yeah this this i love that line, the viciousness that lurks just beneath the surface in so many men.

47:54It's interesting, isn't it? Yes. Beverly, of course, was gay. Cyril Butcher, his friend, I described as his friend, because I think at the time we're writing, it's still, you know, he's lived a lifetime as a gay man with a partner, but not possible for them to make it public. They may have just been companions. No. From the way they were together, they were more than companions. They were lovers. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I hope so. Actually, I hope so, but I don't know so. I'm only saying that because I think it's quite common for gay couples, another generalisation incoming, sorry everyone, for gay men to have a companion, but then possibly to be having liaisons with other people.

48:40You're absolutely right. I think they may well have had separate rooms. Yeah. and what forget what the writer was it was a walter sickert who said he was entirely monogamous entirely faithful to my wife oh of course i have the occasional caprice on the side during the summer yeah exactly yeah that's what we like feel free to write in about your occasional caprices on the side i have back to the diary now i have some notoriety in oxford now but in his day at Oxford, Beverly Nichols was famous. He was president of the union and editor of Isis when these things meant something. His first novel was published when he was 21.

49:20His first volume of autobiography appeared when he was 25. It was called 25. Of course, today he is best known for his sentimental newspaper columns. He hates being confused with Godfrey Wynn, his love of cats, and his skill as a gardener. He showed me his latest book on flower arranging. It includes a striking arrangement featuring a whole red cabbage as a centrepiece. And after lunch, took me on a tour of the garden, his pride and joy. Now and then, he allows gardening ladies to come on a visit and sets them a challenge. After the tour, he offers them tea. When they've had tea, if they asked to part of their noses, he directs them to the loo, where they find that he has placed an exquisite arrangement of miniature roses inside the lavatory bowl.

50:07More later, and now off to Michael Coney's 21st birthday dinner. He sounds fascinating. What are they supposed to do with the miniature roses? Well, I mean, was he himself a vicious old queen giving these ladies who'd come to see his garden the challenge of do they remove them from the bowl? Do you pee on top of the roses? Exactly. He thought it was hilarious.

50:33Monday, the 15th of September, 1969. Lunch with Peter Morley at Lescargo in Greek Street. I had Vichyssoise and Duck, two pounds, and a wonderful invitation to host my own show for ITV this Christmas. A look back at the 60s. A look back at the 1960s. A 90-minute review of the decade. A mixture of archive film and intelligent chat. Peter Morley produced the Mountbatten TV series and clearly knows his stuff he's very serious but I liked him I think we'll get on well that's pretty good going isn't it I'm still a student and I'm being offered my own Saturday night show at Christmas on ITV I know and this week I went to the 70th anniversary of ITV and I realised there that I began at the top with my own Saturday night show I've been working while Mary Dutton ever since.

51:33Is it still available, this show? No. In those days, they used to wipe the tapes. Yeah, they ran out of tape. I must make sure I don't do that with Rosebud. Please. My lips are sealed. Just record over the top. I'm sure you've never done that. No, I haven't. My programme for the union is shaping up, slowly but surely. And today I sent off one final batch of invitations. I have a bulging file of interesting letters from people who can't make it. C.P. Snow Bridget Brophy Reginald Maudling the Prime Minister the Archbishop of Canterbury Ken Dodd J.K. Galbraith Marganita Lasky R.A. Butler Hattie Jakes Enoch Powell James Mason Peter Ustinoff Christian Barnard Sir Oswald Mosley John Lennon Montgomery of Alamein etc.

52:14Scores of them How many letters had you written? At least I can now boast an impressive autograph collection and some funny letters Dear Giles I grow old I grow old and apart from wearing the bottom of my trousers rolled, I've given up union speaking. Yours, Ian McLeod. And lots of telegrams. This, just in from Washington, D.C. Dear Brandreth, I remember how much Bob's visit meant to him and would enjoy a visit to Oxford Union sometime. Stop. This is a particularly busy time in Congress, but I hope to come another time. Ted Kennedy, United States Senate. A nice letter too from Eldridge Cleaver, Minister of Information, Black Panther Party.

53:02I would be more than happy to accept your invitation and speak next term. I accept. But before I come, I must have a guarantee from your government that I will not be turned over to the agents of Warden Richard Nixon. Without that guarantee, I'm afraid that I will not be able to visit your country. I've always wanted to explore England because it is the origin of much of the shit many of the problems that we all have to deal with these days Wow He gives me the details of his attorney in San Francisco and ends the letter All power to the people Eldritch signing his name in exactly the same coloured turquoise ink as Mr Glading my teacher used to use at Betsanger do you remember my pretty teacher of course giles a blast from the past yeah anyway how interesting anyway though plenty can't come plenty can and some good names i'm especially pleased about fanny cradock she's bringing johnny we've started quite a correspondence but i have to keep her address top secret you may or may not know that my husband and i were blown up and burnt some time ago and have been compelled to move to the above address as our quacks have insisted on our having privacy at home if we are to continue with our work which we love because of this i would be grateful if you would not pass on our address or telephone number to anyone golly so i kept fanny crudock secrets she still remembered you know fanny crudock oh i definitely i sometimes jokingly describe her to people who don't know who she is i say because she was the first woman famous television chef as being a curious cross between mary berry and jeremy clarkson because she was quite a formidable figure yeah but it was wonderful for me to meet you know here i am 2021 corresponding with these world famous people yeah meeting these famous people amazing and were you just guessing their addresses from who's who or the phone book exactly that was it because there was no google there was no google and it was all handwritten letters from me yeah with a stamp and I remember the last post in Oxford was at midnight and I remember writing scores of letters and then running.

55:18I would run through the streets to the post office, post the letters just before midnight, be really exhilarated, then go back to the office and start work or maybe even do an essay. Wow, Charles. Those were the days. And were you paying for the stamps yourself or would you have been claiming expenses from the union? I was paying for the stamps myself. There probably were expenses and it was wonderful. Somebody told me when I was there, I think age 21, somebody who was in the cabinet, they came to the president's office and said, you will never have an office as good as this again. Oh, wow. Even when you're prime minister.

55:53Oh, it was really grand. Twice, three times the size of the room we're in now. And you knew that people like Gladstone had sat in there. Oh, that's amazing, isn't it? So you're part of that extraordinary heritage. And there's some wallpaper downstairs that Brendan Behan's brothers peed on. Yes, absolutely. Three weeks ago. Yeah, amazing. Oh my gosh. Wow. Well, that's it for today, isn't it? It is. Do you want to say anything more? I just want to ask you about that phenomenon of the most important day in your life, the day which feels like a red letter day that you've been waiting for, being a bit of an anti-climax.

56:29Is that something that you've experienced lots of times? You know me quite well. But I think lots of people experience that. So, well, I do feel it still. Yeah. you know I remember the week we became number one in the podcast charts I think the pleasure lasted about 20 minutes and then I thought well how are we keeping the top 10 next week and the week after and a year from now what are we doing why aren't we on YouTube yet should we do an extra episode are there too many ads all these things so whatever happens you're constantly wanting more and it's never quite enough. And do you ever sit back and reflect and feel satisfied?

57:17Yes, the other day I felt satisfied. As you know, I've got this book coming out about A.A. Milne, which we must talk about one day and maybe one of my talks about it we can put on the thing because his family life is fascinating. I'm going to be on Lorraine talking about that. His relationship with his son, Christopher Robin, is fascinating and it was one of those families that eventually became dysfunctional with a brother and sister not talking to one another in the family. Anyway, there's a lot to run pick there. But I knew I had to write a big piece for the Daily Mail about it to publicise the book and a big piece for the Daily Telegraph and I drew a column for the oldie and it was a week when we had a lot of important interviews going on and I was doing some television stuff and I thought, how am I going to get this done?

58:10But I had three days or four days of getting up at six in the morning, getting down there and doing it. When I finished the last one of the articles and thought it was good, I, for about an hour, felt happier than I felt perhaps in a year. That's brilliant, for about an hour. yeah we'll leave that we'll leave you with that listeners yes and also i'll be i'll share this with the listeners i also felt very um it doesn't get emotional but i felt very happy today when we were talking before we read the diaries of some of the things that harriet was talking about because i thought this is such an interesting topic and i think she is expressing herself so well.

58:59So what I'm really trying to say is it's often the pleasure one gets isn't necessarily to do with what one's done, but things that happen around you think, yes, that's good. So I felt huge satisfaction. I really enjoyed hearing you. I thought we're going to listen, but immediately I thought, oh, I want to hear more of this. When can we record that? Can we get the can we get the vibe right again? So, but we're all doing this. Are we monitoring our lives all the time? Yeah, I think we are. Has this been a reasonable episode? The restlessness of the human animal. Oh, and those of you, we didn't film this one, which is really annoying for me.

59:38Oh, sorry, guys. Because I've spent the last hour and a quarter very deliberately not looking at Harriet's breasts. Cue the music.

59:49You're funny.

1:00:24Thank you.