Gyles's diary, episode 26

0:00I'm Giles Brandreth and this is More Rosebud. Cue the music.

0:21welcome to more rosebud i'm jareth brandreth and today i'm in a room with two people and normally I'm in a room with just one. And of course, it's Harriet Jane, my friend and producer. Before we begin today, Harriet, I want to ask you this. Can you remember the first moment you and I met? Yes, it was in a place called the Backyard Comedy Store. Good grief. In Bethnal Green in East London. It's quite rough and ready. It's not your usual. No. Environs. did you send a car for me or did I come I think I came on the underground I think you probably came on the tube Giles I think I did you're very good aren't you and you were on time because you're never late you were in my mind an impeccably behaved guest the dream guest you get yourself there on time you invited me to take part in a radio programme you did for Radio 4 for many years called My Teenage Diary and you wrote to me out of the blue and I phoned up because I like to phone people Yes, you phoned me.

1:27I do remember that. Only because it just, otherwise you're writing endless emails and then write another email, another email. And I just call people and say what it's all about. Yeah, so watch out listeners. Giles might call you. Yes. He might just phone you up. Well, can I tell you, that is what senior politicians, I learned this in America years ago. They sit in the back of their car, they've got an hour driving from A to B, and their assistant says these are, we just take at random, voters in this district. Oh yes, they do that. I am your senator. Wow. I'm driving through your area. I'm just thinking about you, Mrs.

2:01Hodgkiss. And I'm concerned. What's concerning you? And then you talk to them about it. So Barack Obama could just call you? Absolutely. And then you tell all your friends, wouldn't you? Yeah, you would. You would. Well, except John Major wouldn't be doing that because we found out he doesn't have a mobile. No, but he'd have somebody in his car with a mobile who would do that for him. Yeah. We did discover. We learned a lot from him, didn't we? well so can you remember pardon me being on time anything else about that and recording uh well it was very funny i mean it was brilliant yeah it was brilliant it was good and i remember being very impressed by you i came back though and i wrote in my diary apart from what a good experience it had been how good you had been how it had gone so well i'm nervous that she's going to overproduce it.

2:49Oh, you told me that on the day. Oh, did I? Yeah, you didn't like the little extra things that I'd put in the show. Because I thought we had such, it was so good, the content was so good, the audience response also was very warm, wasn't it? Yeah, it was. Anyway, that's how we first met. You remember that. Yeah. And I liked you and you quite liked me. Oh, I loved you, Giles. Well, that's the right thing to say. But that was it. Yeah. Now, the other person in the room today turns out to be Michelle, who is my wife. now michelle brandreth once upon a time michelle brown what i want to ask you michelle is do you remember the first time you saw me i hate to say this but no the answer is no well there you go have you got any idea when it would have been roughly um the answer is no now this is this puts somebody in their place doesn't it because i remember it so vividly But the difference between the pair of us is that I keep a diary and Michelle doesn't.

3:49No, I like to let things just fade away in the distance. I don't want to have to worry about things I did that I can't change. Well, people who are on Rosebud who are listening to my diaries, they will know that we met in 1968. On the 4th of June, I always thought it was the 6th of June. I know we got married on the 8th of June. I do remember that, actually. That's about the only one that I do remember. That's good, Michelle. I think I wrote down something like, get out of this occasion as soon as you can. Well, you would, wouldn't you, when it's somebody you've not been knowing that well. Please.

4:24We got married. I was a lovely girl from, you know, lovely Swansea. I wasn't looking for a posh boy like you. You came to an audition for Cinderella. Yes, because I did enjoy doing a bit of, you know, pretending to be an actress. And this is my opportunity to bring my skills. To the whole country. I don't think they really applauded much, but it was worth it. Well, you were brilliant. I didn't offer you the part, which was my... No, and you know, I remember that still to this day. Because I think you thought you were so posh, and there was a lovely girl from Swansea, and you didn't know why I was there.

5:01But he liked you as soon as he saw you, Michelle, because he writes that in his diary. Oh, do you really? Oh, right. Well, I might get a peep at that at some point. Well, we're going to read some more of the diary now of when we've known each other, gosh, where we've reached in the dowry is 1969. So by this time, we've been going out for about a year. We met in 1968 at the audition for Cinderella. I pursued you. You were a little bit elusive, as you clearly still are. Obviously, this is the secret of keeping a man on his toes, is to actually be hard to get. It's brilliant, Michelle. And she's managed this.

5:41It's still working. Can I tell you, for 57 years. It's brilliant, Giles. So it is extraordinary. You're still chasing Michelle Brown. I'm still chasing her. But she calls herself Michelle Brandreth now. She does, yeah. It's so much easier just to have one name. I know I should have more than one name, but one is enough. Well, we're going to read some of the diary and see if this prompts any recollections. And feel free to interrupt, because Harriet always does. Oh, yes. Well, in 1969, you by then, oh, the autumn of 1969, you've left. You left, I think, because you are, incredibly, a year older than me.

6:17So you left at the end of the summer term in 1969, I think. Yeah. And you went off to get work. I think, this comes back to me, CETA Electronics. Yes. Does that ring a bell? It certainly does. They were lovely people I worked for early on in my life. And it was down on the south coast somewhere. I'm not quite sure what they did, but it was something to do with electricity. I know what they did because you wrote it in the diary. They made circuit boards. Circuit boards. And this was circuit. They were testing something, weren't they? They were pioneers at the beginning of the sort of electronic revolution.

6:55They were pioneers and very hardworking. And they were just such nice people. I wish there were some of them still alive. They might be listening. Wouldn't that be lovely? If any of you are still alive, please give me a call. Well, I wish they were. I mean, you were 21 or 22. It was in Bournemouth where they were. Yeah. And they were all a bit older than you. Well, they must have loved you, Michelle. Were you doing marketing for them? I was doing a mix of everything, really, because they were very clever people. And what they did mainly was practical. So I did a lot of the bits and pieces that, you know, helped support that.

7:32I was marketing and also doing other things like sweeping up the floor. I don't think you were sweeping up the floor. Well, perhaps a little bit less than that. But you made best friends there with Veronica. I did. I met a girl called Veronica and we were great friends. She was the other witness at our wedding. She was. Simon Cadell, my friend who's obviously cropped up in the diaries before, was, as it were, my witness at the wedding. And your witness at our wedding was Veronica Hodges. Veronica Hodges, yes. And this is the period, I think, I don't know if it's going to come to the diaries, it will eventually, when Michelle moved from being with this company to electronics.

8:08And it's quite interesting for people listening who may be young and thinking how to get started in the world. You then found yourself working in television. And being an electronics company helped because do you remember you went to do a science program for the BBC? Well, I was working a lot for the BBC at that time because I went to a lot of areas of the BBC. I was sort of, I don't quite know what you'd call it. I was a sort of somebody we sent anywhere part of the BBC to do something that was being listened to or whatever. Peripatetic. I was peripatetic, yes. It's very painful. In Bristol, you did TomTom, which is a science programme.

8:46In Bristol, I did TomTom. And Bristol, I really wanted to go to Bristol. It was such a lovely place and I still like it. so yes, that was correct. White Ladies Road, I remember the flat. White Ladies Road, yes. And do you remember the prowler outside the flat? There were some weird blokes around at that time. Yeah, I just suddenly remember that. And then Birmingham, you did a programme called Women Today. Women Today, yes, and they were very nice women that I worked with. I really enjoyed that time with them. And then in Manchester, you were a continuity announcer. I clearly went everywhere, didn't I?

9:16I think everybody was trying to get me out of the way. So you just left university and straight away got a job. Oh, I needed the money. But that's really impressive, Michelle. Well, is it? I think most people need the money, don't they? Well, no, but to get a job working on television straight away. Yes, I was lucky. You were. Actually, you were lucky. You were very personable. You were very beautiful. You were obviously highly intelligent. But interestingly, I do now remember this. This science thing, working for this electronic, made it seem, sort of made her feel modern. Yes, like she knew about science.

9:47Yes, I did. This is now 50 years ago. You may find this hard to believe, Harriet, but the idea that a woman would be interested in science seemed a bit odd. Yes, they thought I was some sort of weird woman who was trying to frighten the boys. So here she was, a university graduate, who had a science interest, and as a result of being in Manchester, I don't know if it's going to come out in the story if it doesn't mention it now, as a result of being in Continuity and Answer in Manchester, I remember you asked the then boss, because you were just saying the next programme is, or here's the weather, whether you might read the news one night.

10:21Do you remember this, late at night? Yes, I did once. It was considered very, very unlikely and a little bit cheeky, you know. There were some men who were very anti-women. And even to this day, I'm very aware of the fact of how men can still make women feel second rate. I found it really, really hard going. And in the end, I got myself moved down. And then after that, decided to leave the BBC and go into doing things with books, basically, I think, and, you know, writing. Michelle is putting this very delicately for diplomatic reasons. What happened was she asked to read the news, and the man in charge said, well, no one will believe it.

11:01We don't have women reading the news because it's not credible. Yeah. But you persisted. I do remember actually being told that. So, you know, anyway, I fought back, and I think I was so irritating or whatever. In fairness to them, they did let you read the news. Yes, they did. And as a consequence, she became the first woman to read the news on British television. But only in the North West. Only in the North West. All the people somewhere else didn't even know I existed, which was quite comforting, really. And I do remember one night being with you when you read the news. I wonder if this will come up in the diary.

11:32It's now coming back to me. Because you were working in a self-operating studio. Yes, I was. Where you turned all the switches yourself. Yes. And I sat on the floor in the studio. and you remember there was a story, a local news story, about a man in prison, I'm just remembering now, who was sort of protesting inside the prison and managed to knock the lights out in his cell by using his wooden leg. He removed his wooden leg and knocked that, and then called the warden, the prison warder, and then when the prison warder came in, he bashed him on the head with his wooden leg. And I was on the floor in the studio out of the camera range watching Michelle.

12:11I was so besotted with her. And she was reading this news item and I'm afraid we both got the giggles. Of course. You would. It was very unkind to the person who got his head sort of bopped. But at the same time, it's very memorable. And that may have justified the bosses and said, yeah, you are. You can't trust a woman to read the news. Especially not if she's got Giles Brandreth sitting with her leg on the floor. It was very interesting to see how men were very much thought of as being more important, more intelligent, whatever. and even now I sometimes think back at those times and I think actually it's amazing that a few women like me just fought back because it was really rather sort of grubby really.

12:50The grubbiness I'm afraid relates to Stuart Hall who was later imprisoned. He was so... And you never had any trouble with him. No. And he was always very jolly. but Michelle because she stayed overnight because of being this continuity announcer you had a kind of dressing room which was also a ladies room which I'm afraid Stuart Hall used during the daytime when you weren't there. I wish to make that quite clear that he and I had nothing between us. No but it was it was not a nice way and it was very much something which was anti-women it's just another world. So there was late 60s there wasn't a very nice atmosphere there and I do remember quite a few years ago now you gave evidence to there was a BBC inquiry on that sort of behaviour uh that culture in the BBC at the time and you gave I know then you did you thought about it quite seriously and made sure everything you said was you know as it should be yes of course you were the people who was asked to give evidence and did anyway did you feel protective of Michelle because Michelle was off working in this quite challenging environment and you're still at university.

13:55And it was still late at night, of course. Everybody else had gone home except these people and me sitting on my couch or whatever it was, just waiting for the morning to come again. Well, to be honest, she was so clear and strong about what she did. I just accepted this is where she was. And as I think we see in the diaries, you already remember, I think there were last time we were in Bournemouth and we asked to leave the digs. and Bristol I think you shared with somebody there and I turned up and Manchester you would stay the night at BBC yes in Oxford Road and then we'll come back to London yes that is correct on the train yes so I kept tonight I would go up and they'd be very jolly with me it was not the atmosphere was very jolly and though there was this unpleasantness going on at the time I think you just put up with it one accepted it yes it was part of the culture of the time I'm afraid Yes, definitely, yes.

14:51And the more I think back on it, the more amazed I am that women like me put up with it for so long. Yes, we should have been out there with our hatchets. And largely, I think that's probably one of the reasons. I mean, I think, you used to say anyway, you gave up television because you didn't really enjoy doing it. And I think the unpleasant atmosphere was part of it. But also, you didn't really enjoy doing it, did you? Well, at the time, I was just grateful for the money and for the nice people there who did help, actually. You did a show called This Week in Britain. Yes. For several years. Yeah.

15:24Which you did enjoy, I think, actually. I did, yes. And there were nice people doing that. Yes, yes. And it was a very interesting thing to be involved in. And we did a television series together called Discovering Gardens, which is being currently shown, as we speak, on some channel on a Sunday afternoon. Oh, I'll have to catch that. Living Rewind UK, I think the channel is called. Lovely. 5.30 on Sunday afternoon, so you can see what we looked like 40 or 50 years ago. I haven't had the energy or the courage to actually look at that, but I might have it a try now. And I haven't had the nows to find this channel.

15:54I've been fiddling all the numbers. We're completely useless for parents. It's a Sky Channel. You can find it in all sorts of different ways. Rewind UK. So you can catch up. It's probably on in a care home down the road from your house, John. Thank you very much, Harriet. Well, at least we've all got our sense of humour, which is quite something after 50 years. Shall we read a bit of diary now? Yeah. And this is Sunday, the 12th of October, 1969. Michelle has now left the university, but she may crop up on the diary, I don't know. I'm still at the university. I've become president of the union.

16:29I think the last episode, I've been in correspondence with Fanny Craddock, big television chef. I was trying to get big names to come to speak at the Oxford Union. Sunday, 12th of October, 1969. On the Shankill Road, Belfast, British troops are firing tear gas at stone-throwing mobs. It isn't much more peaceful here in the President's Office of the Oxford Union. I've received the following letter from Fanny Craddock. I have just received on my return to England a cutting from the Times dated 7th October 1969 under the heading Union Upswing, which includes the statement that you are trying to knock some life into the old place, that you are turning the debating hall into a theatre and that you think you will probably upset a few of the old guard.

17:16The tailpiece of this report is as follows. Two debates will be broadcast and the traditional humorous debate with Fanny Craddock, televised in colour and played in by the Yontan Silver Band. My dear Mr. Brandreth, you have told me none of this. You have asked me to speak for or against what I, and everyone with whom I have discussed this, regards as an extremely serious motion. England is a seven-stone weakling and proud of the fact. And with the best will in the world, I flatly refuse to play horse to your Godiva. Rightly or wrongly, I do not regard myself as a comic, and I'm appalled at the prospect of being played in by anybody's silver band.

18:01Oh, dear Charles. The long and the short of it is that she is threatening to withdraw. I've written to her at great length essentially telling her that she's wonderful that I'm a fool and that come what may I need her here on the 4th of December I also have Barry Humphreys and John Wells in the line-up but she is my star turn Friday 17th October 1969 up early to send thank you notes etc re last night the first debate at the Meikleman Stern then on at 10.30am for my first tutorial with the great Richard Cobb, fellow of Balliol, oh, your college, Harriet, and apparently the world authority on the French Revolution.

18:45His claim to fame is looking at history from the people's perspective, not viewing it from the top down, from state papers, etc., but from the bottom up, the testimony of peasants, etc. Having been told how fortunate I am to have Cobb as my tutor, I turned up in good time, in good order, and oddly nervous. I found his staircase. I climbed the stairs. I stood on the landing outside his room and checked my watch. Just as the baliol clock struck the half hour, I raised my hand to knock on the door. And then I heard him inside the room. He was bellowing at the top of his voice. What the bloody hell have you done with it?

19:25Damn and blast your eyes. Where the hell is it? I stepped back, not sure what to do. The shouting got fiercer. You are so bloody, bloody, bloody stupid. His rage was mounting. For Christ's sake, where have you put it? God, how I despise you. He paused. And where the hell's my pupil? I knocked on the door. Suddenly I heard a crash. It sounded as though he'd heaved a great pile of books onto the floor. Then the voice rose to a great crescendo of fury. Where the fuck is he? I knocked again Come, he called I turned the handle, pushed open the door and found him standing in the middle of his study pale-faced, wild-eyed hair all disheveled books and papers scattered pell-mell on the floor around him he appeared to be alone there was a door beyond him that led presumably to his bedroom had the other pupil taken refuge in there?

20:27Ah, yes, good he mumbled, beckoning me into the room. You must be, um... Brandreth, yes. Am I disturbing you? No, no, under seat. Move those books, I was expecting you. You're late. I'm sorry, I faltered. I thought you had someone with you. No, no, I was talking to myself. I couldn't find a document I needed. Now, what did you say your name was? Brandreth. Oh, yes, he smiled. The television star. shall we have a glass of wine he drank copiously at 10 30 in the morning we got on famously and i don't think he's going to expect too much from me this time oh brilliant well you know he is i've later learned a lot about him and indeed somebody's written a big biography of him he was a really great historian yeah um you remember the name Yes, I did.

21:25I read history as well. He was a really good speaker and somebody to teach you and so on. But he was mad as a fox. Oh, mad as a fox. That's a good expression. This does say something about tutorials, how tutorials can be at Oxford, which is they can be a little eccentric, don't you think? That for me is the joy. I suspect they're much less eccentric now. I had a number of tutors who were eccentric. I mentioned the one with the riding crop. Yes, he sounded wonderful. That is part of the fabulous education that one was given. Well, I don't know if I really got educated. My tutor, who was lovely and very eminent, he used to, I think he often was asleep.

22:11He'd be lying down or sort of reclining and it would get more relaxed as it went on and he was smoking as well which people could do then and um yes when you got to the end of your essay he'd get you to read your essay out which obviously gave him a chance to relax and smoke and at the end he'd sort of looked like he'd just woken up and he'd say that was very nice that was all he ever said and then you'd have a sort of vague conversation and then he'd get the next person to read your tutorial partner with read their essay and then it'd be the end of the hour would have gone by so i yeah i mean i loved it but i didn't feel like he really ever taught me much most of my tutors i had solo sessions with them oh that is good which was good that's it's quite intimidating that it can be quite intimidating yeah can you remember any of your tutors michelle i'd have to sort of think a bit And look back on your notes and things.

23:09Yes. Was Kirsty one of your tutor partners? Kirsty McLeod. We were great friends until she died, sadly. Much, much later, of course. Yes. But I do remember, because this is a nice story, I do remember when you arrived for your interview, because I don't think you'd been to Oxford before, you came from your grammar school in Kent. That is correct. You turned up. Which was very good, actually, the grammar school in Kent. Actually, grammar school for girls. It was very, very good. I'm so grateful to it, even now at my old age. It was a very nice place to be and to be helped. But you tell the story, I do remember this, of arriving for the interview and sitting in the room and there were a lot of other girls.

23:49That is correct, in a circle. Yeah, Kirsty and I couldn't stop laughing. She was the only one, Kirsty McLeod. The two of us kind of immediately bonded and when a lot of very, very serious girls were being very, very serious, she and I couldn't stop laughing. we both recognised each other as we were reading something like women today or something we obviously both given up any hope of getting a chance so we were sitting reading jolly magazines yes exactly and we were great friends ever since and until unfortunately she's no longer with us as you glanced across the room there were the serious girls there was the one girl also reading women's own oh yes you thought we've got something in common yes yeah there were enough normal girls there you felt you could live there without being too upset so on we go saturday the 18th of october 1969 letter from pa he came on thursday night but i couldn't see him because of all the guests etc he is full of pa like congratulations the way you handled the entire proceedings was perfect all the right mixture of authority and tolerance with shafts of wit and good humor and your tails look fine too but the real reason for writing is this your wretched fees the bank will not play but since the fees are in advance it is possible the bursa will allow deferred payment i've had to do this in the past with school fees poor pa he has more than 500 pounds in outstanding bills and doesn't know which way to turn i'm so sorry to involve you in what for me has been a lifetime of money anxieties.

25:29This is me now writing. I will go to see the bursar. I have money coming in from Honey, £47, five shillings, for each Luke Jarvis. £100 for the piece I've done for Michael Wynne-Jones at the Mirror magazine. And between now and Christmas, I should get a total of£875 from London Weekend TV for Child of the Sixties. It will be fine. But there might, Yes. Could I just intercept for a moment? I was very fortunate because I was somebody whose parents didn't have to pay for me. And I think that's something that is wonderful, that it was available. And that for me and other people, it was possible to go on and go on to university without having to find money from your poor parents.

26:18It's interesting. It must have been in those days. I thought everybody had their fees paid. Yes, so did I. But clearly not. and it must have been means tested. So my father, Baku, was, you know, middle class, earning a good amount of money as a solicitor, but always spending a little bit too much. On your mum's hairdressers. Yes, but just a little bit too much on everything, on a foreign holiday. They were not extravagant. They lived, actually, almost frugally. If you ever saw the series Rumpole of the Bailey, their mansion flat in London was exactly like the flat that Rumpole and his wife lived in.

26:52yeah um but the combination of school fees holidays um well that was it really for children it's expensive indeed five children five children there was my three older sisters oh sorry and my younger brother my adopted brother ben so and he was still at school and they were paying school fees for him yeah so it was all just too much but funnily enough it's the one thing i mean i i when i became an mp and since i really have empathy not just sympathy for people with financial worries there's nothing worse in the world okay on we go at least I was able to help you're not still paying it are you Giles I'm not still paying it off I am not still paying it off all these years later

27:36Wednesday 22nd October 1969 I now have a literary agent her name is Irene Giuseppe she wrote to me out of the blue having read about me in the Times she represents Patrick Campbell Adrian Mitchell, Paul Foote, Nicholas Tomlin, among others, and will take 10 % of any earnings that come through her. I met her today for the first time. She's quite eccentric, but very nice. She has steel grey hair, which she claims never to wash. Its natural oils keep it clean, she says. She would like to represent me because I'm a fellow Piscean, and she senses that though I will have problems with my feet all my life i have high prospects she gave me lunch at the gay hussar in greek street it's her favorite haunt and the favorite haunt too of the left-wing establishment while we were there michael foot and tom dryberg walked through the restaurant on their way to one of the private dining rooms upstairs we sat at a tiny table on creaking rather uncomfortable old red velvet covered chairs the owner victor is hungarian and told us what to eat.

28:44Cold cherry soup, roast duck and stuffed cabbage. It was delicious. While I was there, I felt, as I often feel nowadays, that I was no longer me, but a character in somebody else's film. I handled my first 50 new pence coin today. It is seven-sided and is being introduced to replace the tensiling note. Thursday 23rd October 1969 another good night at the union a packed house electric atmosphere interesting debate that pop and culture will never meet this was Michelle's idea get away from fuddy-duddy politicians do something a bit more modern Giles my lineup included Edward Lucy Smith poet and critic Tony Palmer film director and pop columnist Emperor Roscoe disc jockey michelle's choice and sandy wilson creator of the boyfriend my choice i'm interested michelle when i said uh emperor roscoe disc jockey you did a thumbs up i did clearly i because you have not read these diaries and we have not discussed this in 56 years but you were not particularly interested in contemporary stuff so occasionally i felt i had to tell him that he ought to at least make some attempt to show that he was knowing a little bit about what was going on outside his own small area.

30:10Yes, outside of Oscar Wilde and the complete works of Shakespeare. Exactly. Yes, very good, Michelle. You've dragged him into the modern era. I dragged him into the modern world, yes, that's right. And you were dressing him as well. He mentioned in one of the previous entries that you'd taken him shopping and bought him some trendy clothes. Oh yes, because he really did look pretty. Well, you know, what can I say? And Sandy Wilson, creator of The Boyfriend, My Choice. sandy seemed really nervous and genuinely thrilled with the note that i passed him after his speech jimmy young failed to show as he warned me he might but my surprise star substitute did indeed prove to be the star of the evening simon d i'm saying it like that harriet you remember him don't you michelle yeah he was heard of him no he was he was the the thing at the time he was of the moment.

31:07He was as big as... Which is not what Giles has ever been. He was bigger than Graham Norton. Yes. I'm not exaggerating. Wow. Simon D., his real name was Cyril Nicholas Henty Dodd. That's right, Henty Dodd. Henty Dodd was very important to him. Born 1935, so quite young. He'd been a pirate radio disc jockey. He was essentially a chat show host. He was so famous, you've no idea. His D-time TV series had a weekly audience of, wait for it, 18 million people. Wow. To get him was incredible. Simon D. He was wonderful. Tall, skinny, blonde, floppy hair, charming and classy, wildly over the top, exactly what we wanted.

31:48He arrived in an E-type Jaguar, of course, and when I went to collect him from his room at the Randolph, I found him drinking champagne with the beautiful actress model, Joanna Lumley. She's very lovely. They were both delightful, full of fun, crazy but intelligent. and they seemed to love the evening, especially when I took them on the tour of the Union. They were very taken with the pre-Raphaelite murals and chased one another around the gallery in the library. All in all, a big success. I think even the old guard were won over. Next week, we return to business as usual, the no-confidence debate.

32:25Shirley Williams, Robert Maxwell, Nigel Lawson, General Kaufman and company. Monday, the 3rd of November, 1969. Yesterday afternoon, I took Sir Michael Regrave into the deserted Union chamber. He needed to test the acoustic. He stood on the dais at one end of the hall, and I sat at the back, while, to me and for me, he recited, To Be or Not to Be. It felt strange and wonderful to have one of the great hamlets of our time giving me a personal performance. In the evening, to a good crowd, Sir Michael gave his readings from Hans Anderson. They worked well. He's lovely, though so nervous, so tentative, so unsure of himself before he goes on.

33:12Once he's sent a stage, he's fine, but in the wings he's shaking like a leaf. Afterwards, we went to the Cantina di Capri for supper, and he relaxed completely. He blossomed in his shy way. People nearby murmured, film star, and I think he liked being recognised. He found it reassuring. His voice is amazing. There's a lilt and a rasp to it that makes everything he says sound haunting and poetic. With his fish, he ordered spinach. En branche, not à la crème. The waiter looked at him with tears in his eyes. Sir Michael rewarded him with a two shilling tip. He told me that every day his secretary puts out a stack of florins on the hall table by the front door.

33:59when he goes out he takes the florins with him and distributes them to all and sundry the taxi driver the hotel porter the stage doorkeeper it smooths the path he explained when you're a film star that's what they expect how much is a florin two shillings so what would that be now 10p no it wouldn't be 10p it would be 300 pounds or something like a five it's like a five it's wonderful about him is he did i mean he looked the part he was very tall he was very handsome and um well he had a presence about him and i think he he was ready to play the part you know so he got up people came to his and he so discreetly had the floor already ready he just pressed it gently into the hand and moved on marvelous wonderful later i've just been presiding at the union standing committee meeting stephen milligan is a most excellent secretary intelligent good humoured, gets on with it.

34:59Actually, it's a good team. No prima donnas. Julian Radcliffe, Anthony Spade, Libby Purvis, all solid chaps. We cannot say that it is the beautiful girls who are drawn to the Union. Nor yet the handsome men, I can hear Michelle muttering. And she's right. The Union Harry is not a prepossessing specimen, though Spade has fine red hair. he's the nephew of Robert Spade the actor and his father is the world authority on toy theatres we can see why I like him and we can see why I like Fanny Craddock she has received my missive she is coming on the 4th of December after all she writes I read your letter I read it to the family there was a chorus of you can't refuse

35:48you have to laugh don't you sorry There was a chorus of, you can't refuse anybody who writes to you like that. We were all immensely touched and having mentally decided you were marvellous, I've got to tell you so. Nice letter too from Sandy Wilson. Pleased with my compliments, happy with the response he got on the night, but rather shocked by the nature of the debate and by what I can only call the degradation of the union for the purposes of showbiz. but perhaps that is just another symptom of the current obsession with success at any price. Friday, 14th November, 1969. The Beverly Nichols night went well.

36:31He said to me afterwards, I'd forgotten what it was like to play the Union. It is a subtler instrument than you might imagine. He played it with extraordinary delicacy. He was nostalgic and reflective and yet he held them completely. He disarmed them with understated charm. There is a lesson here. And for those requiring something more robust, we had Lord Boothby. Does this mean anything to you, Harriet? Oh, gosh. Robert Boothby, 1996. He was a Conservative MP for many years. Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother, famously described him as a bounder, but not a cad. He was bisexual. He was twice married.

37:14he was the lover of harold mcmillan the prime minister's wife dorothy reputedly he was the lover of the gangster ronald cray and he was the father of several illegitimate children wow yeah bob boothby always on television newspaper columns he was quite a catch i think the name does ring a bell he must have been quite attractive well no i think he was quite well off wasn't he he may have been well off but he was attractive you harriet you lent me that book about hg wells who was not physically attractive nobody would call him handsome but was clearly brilliant and amusing uh and people fell at his feet i mean he got all the girls yeah didn't he he did not disappoint this is lord boothby he did not disappoint either in debate he growled and gurgled and the crowd cheered all before and afterwards where he staggered about wheezing drinking smoking like an ancient debauchee enjoying one last night out on the town he arrived with his young maltese bride on his arm and i was grateful for her presence he needed looking after i felt he might well die during the course of the evening beverly had told me extraordinary stories about him scandals involving gangsters mistresses in high places, loved children, blackmail and worse, but said, don't believe a word of it.

38:40Bob's a dear, an absolute dear. Thursday, 20th November, 1969. I went to see the bursar this morning and explained the desperate position to him. He was sympathetic, but said there was really no question of his phasing payment over a period of time. I've written to par. What I save from my London weekend end fee I will use for my day-to-day expenses between now and June, food, fares, clothes, etc. I'm not going to be able to earn much from January because I'll be studying for my finals. If Pa can find a way of raising a loan to cover the fees, I should at least be able to pay the interest for him.

39:21I will also make what other gestures I can, for example, paying the next quarter's phone bill for him. I wish I could wave a magic wand and solve it, but I can't. it's quite dire isn't it how did your dad get so into that sort of once you're not a good once you're organizer once you're in debt and the bank won't lend you anymore where do you turn and once you're in debt and you're paying interest the interest goes on why do you go into that in the first place because you spend more than you have yes and why and you do that because my father wanted to please my mother. My mother, well, they both, they expected the children to be educated privately.

40:04I could have gone, as you've often said to me since, Michelle, they should have moved to a flat, a less expensive... They lived in the West End. They could have moved to a slightly less expensive area. My father could have gone on the underground, say from Hammersmith to where he worked in Leicester Square. I could then have still gone if they wanted me to go to a private school, a school like St Paul's, which was a day school. There wouldn't have been the boarding fees. But I think my mother couldn't cope with the children at home. No, she had a lot of children to look after, didn't she? Well, all my sisters went to boarding school.

40:36My mother loved having children until they were about seven or eight. Then they were no longer interesting to her in the same way. Fair enough. I mean, children can drive you bonkers, can't they? And she adopted my brother when I was ten. Which was a good thing. Because I was then at boarding school. She wanted another baby. and because she had lost a baby before I was born Your father couldn't say no, could he? My father couldn't say no and my sister who was 18 at the time my sister Jennifer was adamantly against it you know, she was 18 and said to my father, this is madness you can't let Ma do this, madness but he always did what she wanted so Ben was adopted then when he got to 8 or 9 he was into a boarding school and then she found a solution because she then started her own nursery school.

41:24And so she had small children. Was she very, very good with small children? Wonderful. She was really, really good. She was quite remarkable. And up until a few years ago, people would come up to me, literally in the street. I remember somebody coming up to a railway station. Well, they did do that, didn't they? And your mother, she meant well. She loved the small children. She taught England. I mean, she loved little children. She was a really brilliant teacher with little children. She had her own nursery school, but she also did what was then called remedial teaching. Yeah. And she was marvellous at that up until the day she died, I think, wasn't she?

42:01Oh, she went on teaching when she was in her 90s. Yeah. In America. She was sought after. She spent many of her retirement years in America. In America, yeah. Because by that time, we'd been able to buy her a flat. Because my father died, when we get to this, she only had there was no money literally no money to pay the rent and Michelle had the idea I remember the day you had this idea in the kitchen we can't go on paying this rent why are we paying rent for her why can't we use the rent we're paid to try and buy her a flat so we had to raise money to be able to buy the flat but that was her saving because she was then able to rent out the flat that we'd bought for her and that enabled her to go and live in America which she wanted to do where she began teaching again because we had an American family amazing but she was a wonderful teacher and she was a pioneer of the teaching of children with dyslexia before people had heard of it even she was marvellous at all those things she wasn't very good at working on money which made it more difficult for your father to deal with it and she had very little ones, she didn't buy clothes for herself no, no, she wasn't she liked going out for an Indian meal which they couldn't really afford because she came from India Yeah, she wasn't Indian, but everything that she did was about India, really.

43:22She sounds like a fascinating woman. She was. She was a remarkable person. Remarkable. Remarkable in some ways, and in some ways completely blanked anything that was a problem, didn't she? Which, again, I mean, I quite like to do that myself all the time. We now realise, which we didn't at the time, when I first knew Michelle, my mother was often in bed. And I now know that's a sign of depression. yeah and during the day yeah yeah you know my mum was as well all day oh oh god oh it is interesting i'd come home from school she would have been in bed all day wow that's really yeah and she didn't often get up even in the evening she'd get up at supper time yeah well i think my mother would often say and she'd say oh little something tasty on a tray and my father would bring it in yeah i can picture the thing with the a tray with little legs on either end yes Oh, yeah, he put it on the bed.

44:14The bed thing, yeah. Yes, and then she'd be calling out for a hot water bottle. And he'd be sitting in the kitchen in the room next door at the kitchen table with all the bills laid out, working out which bill to pay next. And, of course, that was another reason why your mother didn't want to see it, because she knew that he couldn't deal with it. And I think when I got the impression that she didn't want to even know about... Yeah. Oh, the money was terrible. Terrible. He sold whatever he could sell, his stamp collection from his childhood, all of his pictures that he inherited from his... his collection of cigarette cards from the 1920s.

44:49And most seriously, he was a partner in a law firm. I mean, he was a very successful person. I mean, the people at his retirement party, he would be amazed. He was at the Reform Club. None of them would have known this. High court judges there, et cetera. And he was a great success. He was a lawyer on the radio, a member of the Garrick Club. But he was all the way, you know, keeping up the fact that he couldn't cover up the amount of money he needed for the... But the firm were kind to him. They paid his membership of the Garrick Club. I remember that. But he had to sell his share. Well, that's terrible.

45:21Because that also meant that your mother would have been out of, she wouldn't have had anything because it would have stopped. So the success of the firm, he was no longer benefited from that. So to raise£5 ,000, for example, at one stage, he had to sell£5 ,000 worth of shares. So he didn't get the, but you don't want to hear about our money worries. It's so interesting to hear about your parents in a bit more detail and with Michelle's observations, I think it's very interesting, Giles. I mean, they just sound like lovely people. Oh, they were. Lovely people who didn't know how to... With faults, like everyone has.

45:52And also, didn't really find a way of getting what they needed in the easiest way. Somehow or other, they left it and left it, and then it'd be something that had to be absolutely done. I think a lot of people could relate to that. Absolutely. You bury your head in the sand, don't you? Yeah, I understand it entirely. I mean, she had very good years, but now I think about these years, which, of course, if you're a child, you just take for granted. You will recall from the diaries that she had weight issues. She would go off to what my father called the fat farm, where he would visit her, as you remember, and would sneak in.

46:24Cream cakes. Yes, even though he was paying, he couldn't afford the fat farm. And he was paying for that too. He was paying for the fat farm, and he was paying for the cream cakes.

46:37Tuesday, 25th November, 1969. amusing letter from john wells 20 cadogan gardens london sw3 24th november dear giles i must say the lineup for the debate sounds emetic do for god's sake get someone to replace barry humphries as soon as you can because you won't get the telegram to say he's fallen off the post office tower and fractured every bone in his body until sometime on the evening of the debate fanny craddock exclamation exclamation exclamation see you on the fourth regards jay wells meeting with ian mcleod peter morley and i went to see him at his flat at grosvenor house it's where he lives during the week when parliament is sitting that's this building i know ian mcleod was the great liberal conservative of the 1950s and 60s and peter morley was the director making this television show i was going to do at christmas and we came in this building where we're recording this area groven house and park lane they had flats and people lived there and he obviously lived here we should get one giles what about the rosebud apartment very very convenient i think it would it would suit us it's where he lives during the week when parliament is sitting he likes it because of the swimming pool he needs to swim for his health he was even more bent and gnome like than when i last met him he's going to me one of the panel of four commentators on my end of the decade TV show alongside Michael Foot Fred Friendly of CBS News and Lady Longford.

48:11Peter Morley wanted to take him through our plans for the program year by year but Mr McLeod said there was no need for that. I think he had a game of bridge he was anxious to get to. He said the only problem he could foresee with the program was that he and Michael Foot would probably agree on most things. Wednesday 26 November 1969. I'm in my final year at Oxford but I seem to spend most of my time commuting to London. Happily Mr Cobb my history tutor has now decided to join me on these excursions and gives me my French Revolution tutorials on the train no we do our work in the buffet car so that he can have a beaker or two of wine while we work why not if we have to change at reading we look in at the platform buffet to find another beaker or two of wine there oh gosh isn't that amazing i mean honestly we were going up in the mornings too did you learn anything i don't think so but it was fun today i was in london to take lunch at the celebrated punch table, courtesy of the editor, William Davis, who spoke of the union on 6th November.

49:22He was very friendly. Everybody was very friendly. Basil Boothroyd, Miles Kington, Alan Corrin. There were about 16 of us in all, but there was something forced about the occasion. I kept very quiet and listened to the others, all being rather self-consciously witty. William Davis has asked me to write a piece for them. I will try, but the truth is that for me, Punch isn't a magazine you read. It's one where you look at the cartoons. Wednesday, 3rd December, 1969. Letter from John Wells. I'm extremely sorry to do that with which I find fault in others. He's in Scotland writing a script with John Fortune and is pulling out of tomorrow night's farewell debate.

50:09He says, would I apologise to Barry Humphreys on his behalf and suggests I try Richard Ingram's, Gerard 4017, as long as you don't tell him who he's replacing, or William Rushton, Knightsbridge 1913. In fact, I'm relatively calm because I anticipated something like this and have already persuaded Robert Morley to step into the breach. Later. telegram received this afternoon it is with great regret that mr barry humphries feels you need to do this in a barry humphries i do how what is a barry humphries voice can you do it well you're not can you do an australian accent i don't think i can't i don't think i can can you read it for me you read it please with an australian accent i don't know if i can do It is with great regret that Mr Barry Humphreys feels it is his duty to advise the President of the Oxford Flaming Union that he is bloody sorry that he finds it impossible to carry out the bonzer honour conferred upon him of being requested to address the union stop.

51:20The inconvenience placed upon him by the British Broadcasting Corporation at this particular time forces him to shoot through stop. And if yous don't like it, yous can stick your nose up a dead bear's stop. Letter follows. Barry Humphreys. It's hilarious and brilliantly done, if I may say so, Harriet Jane. Brilliant. Well done. Isn't this interesting because John Wells, who also pulled out, predicted that this would happen, that I get a telegram on the day. So two people have pulled out the night before your debate. The night before my debate. But at least John Wells has given me Richard Ingram's personal phone number and Willie Rushman's phone number.

52:02Yeah. But I'm not sure that I, maybe I did try them, but Robert Morley was very humorous. He was a famous actor, film star, very engaging. So I managed to get him. So let's see what happens. Thursday, 4th. I've got to bear in mind, these people are totally good. I mean, I'm a 20... This is a 21-year-old student who's asking these great names to come and perform for free. Yeah. And not even offering them their travel expenses. No, I know. Let alone their hotel bills. Yeah. I'm extraordinary. So the 4th of December is the day of the debate. This is the big day. Thursday, 4th of December, 1969. She has no eyebrows.

52:43Fanny Craddock has drawn on eyebrows, orange lipstick around her lips, and a voice like a foghorn. But I love her, and so did the union. She was a triumph and is now my best friend. Johnny Craddock was with her and wearing his monocle. He didn't say much, but he kept an eye on her at all times. She was quite nervous beforehand, but once she stood up and heard the crowd, she was away. And brilliant. only Robert Morley could have followed her and he did with considerable style it was a very funny very happy evening even my speech went well after we had paraded in I had to get the Yanton silver band to play at encore while I rushed out again to go to the loo I remember that happened quite often as I recall I'm afraid it did darling nothing's changed nothing's changed It was a night to remember in every way.

53:43The Craddocks have a huge Rolls Royce and flair to match. I shall write a proper account in the morning, but for now, for this relief, much thanks. Good night. Friday, 5th December, 1969. The BBC broadcast any questions live from the Union tonight. I asked them to come. They said yes, it is the only way. It was a good end to a good term. during the broadcast on air norman stenton stevers said several amusing and nice things about me afterwards in his cups he took me to one side and said giles you are far too amusing for your own good take care someone had told me we'd had too many funny debates this time i said not so and told him about the prisons debate with lord longford the lord chancellor's visit the biafra exhibition etc he replied yes but they'll only remember the clowning he said you should use me as a dreadful warning because i try to be amusing i'm dismissed as a dilettante and a lightweight i'd like to drop badger on their toes now you know what he means by that he's interest stevers who had been an academic and he was a future cabinet minister he was editing the 15 volume edition of the works of Walter Badgett, the Victorian constitutional lawyer.

55:07But he became known as a bit of a card. And eventually he fell out of favour with Mrs Thatcher, was dropped from the government because he was considered a lightweight. He became the head of a Cambridge College. But nonetheless, it was interesting advice, wasn't it? Yeah. And do you think, do you feel similarly to him? I think he was right. Yes. I think it was good advice. I'm not sure that I took it as well as I should have done. But we're nearly at the end of the year, everybody. Thanks for staying with us, if you have. Thanks, Michelle, for staying with us. Is she still here? Michelle's still here.

55:44And she's awake. I'm still here. Yeah. Monday the 15th of December 1969, I went out to the London Weekend Studios at Wembley today to rehearse the programme with the autocue. The whole script is typed out in large letters on an endless scroll of paper, and a lady then turns a handle to roll out the script while you read it. The rolling script is positioned just underneath the TV camera, and the trick is to be reading the script and looking into the eye of the lens at the same time. Not easy. I am a child of the 60s. I was 11 when this decade began. 1960 was the year of the Sharpeville shootings, Helen Shapiro and the election of President Kennedy I think it reads quite well and I'm trying to memorise it so that I don't have to rely on the autocue machine sometimes they break down the paper scroll gets stuck etc we're covering the decade in five chunks two years at a time and I think we've got plenty of variety in the news clips we're showing everything from the Aberfan disaster to Tommy Steele's wedding the real challenge will be to keep the chat with the guests stimulating and to time.

56:53Peter Morley is obsessed with the timings. Throughout the proceedings, there'll be a floor manager standing to the right of my camera giving me signals. Was it live? This is terrifying. Was it live? I was clearly doing a live programme on, my God, on New Year's Eve, on ITV, for the first time in my life. I'm 21. And it's live. No wonder a lot of people didn't like you. Yes, you're right there You're right there, but the autocue I remember the autocue, I mean it was literally like the scroll of lavatory paper loo paper going through the machine And it could get stuck But no wonder he's worried about timings because live, that is important Can't cut it like you can with this Diaries episode But did you manage alright?

57:40Well I don't know, we haven't got to a bit in the diary I thought you would have remembered Everyone else involved is dead apart from you darling Okay, on we go Thanks a lot. Tuesday, 23rd December 1969. Michelle and I went to the Dower House, Grove Mill Lane near Watford Hearts for Fanny and Johnny Craddock's Christmas party. It was our first show business party. Everyone was there, even Lionel Blair. Joke of the night? Yes, it's Fanny and Lionel, Butch Casserole and the One Dance Kid. That's rather clever, because Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid with Paul Newman and Robert Redford. Oh, they lamented.

58:21It was the highest grossing film of 1969. That's by the by. The champagne flowed. Fanny's buffet was amazing. She is a very good cook. Everyone was friendly. I think I prefer the show business set to the punch crowd. And at 11 o 'clock, she clapped her hands and announced that it was cabaret time. Turning to Nicholas Parsons, who was standing right beside her, she announced, Nicholas will now entertain you. He did, with a very funny routine involving a lot of Scottish gobbledygook. He said afterwards that he had no idea that Fanny was going to ask him to perform. She's a little bit mad, but she couldn't have been more generous, and we were very happy to be there.

59:03When people asked me what I was doing, I mentioned the programme on ITV on Saturday night, but I did try to do it as casually as possible with a nonchalant shrug of the shoulders. and that seems to be the end of the diary for that year so to see how it went we may have to wait till the next episode yes maybe you mentioned it on the first because it was on new year's eve was it i think so maybe you mentioned it on the first of january the response well do you vaguely remember those days michelle i remember them very well yeah of course i do child of the 60s yes there we are and what did you think of me then this was our first year of being together as an item.

59:46What did I have to offer?

59:50Yes, Michelle, seriously. What do you think you saw in Giles? Well, you were enthusiastic about everything. I think that was the thing. Sometimes it drove you nuts. But I did have other suitors, of course. Yeah. But he was the most interesting one. You were the most interesting one, Giles. And did Giles make you laugh? It depends what he was doing.

1:00:16I think he makes you laugh, doesn't he? Yeah, yes, he does. He does. He likes to have a laugh. And would you say Giles was a romantic boyfriend? Did he woo you with flowers, presents, chocolate? He's very generous, even when he's got no money. So that was very nice of him. Yes. But he put himself first. He always puts himself first, don't you, Giles? Well, it's true. I was putting myself first in pursuing you because I thought it was a good deal. But I did pursue her relentlessly. I think over-relentlessly now. I sent telegrams. It was a thing. It was an age of the telegram. I sent telegrams. I sent notes.

1:00:53I gave gifts. Oh, what's wrong with that? No, nothing wrong with that. How lovely. And we went out for some very nice meals. We did, yes. I remember that. Yes. I still remember. And we obviously were quite innocent because I do remember. I don't know why it isn't in the diary because we're not reading every extract. So maybe it isn't. It's there. but I don't remember when you were in Bournemouth it would be about this time going to a hotel restaurant next door to a theatre and having lobster thermidor with a half bottle of Barsak wine which is sweet wine but we just loved it, we didn't know that you shouldn't eat sweet well it doesn't matter anyway and we loved it do you remember you had that because it was very cold that winter it was very cold and you had that lovely muff that you put your hands in.

1:01:40My muff, yes. And I remember in my excitement, possibly to hold your hand across the table, I knocked over the bottle of wine and it fell onto that lovely muff of yours and you were a bit upset about that. I was a bit upset because it was a real muff, wasn't it? Maybe it was rabbit's fur or something. It was very lovely. It was something better than, not better than that, in any animal's fur. You wouldn't have that now. I wouldn't have that now. You wouldn't be saying the word muff over and over again. But that's why I tried to put it in a nice way as I did explain what it was. Yes, but also...

1:02:10Not as I spelt a bottle of wine over a muff on almost half last date. That would be more a matter of your poor writing than anything else, I think. You'll edit this well, I hope. Thank you, Michelle, for being part of the podcast today. We might, if you don't mind, you can come back maybe another day. Yes, I guess I've got plenty of other things to say. No, no, no. I hope I didn't talk too much. You didn't talk too much. Oh, it's been lovely, Michelle. We hope you come back next time. Good. well we may have Michelle again we will have Harriet again I'm very excited the Rosebud family is growing and there's a new element to the Rosebud family the Rosebud Facebook page what is this?

1:02:52it's burgeoning, it's only been going for a short while and it's already got lots of people chatting about what they love, their favourite episodes their first memories and just getting to know each other, it's quite fun, I'm on there sometimes. So it's a kind of chat room where people talk about rosebud yeah and rosebud reflections it's called rosebud reflections you have to be on facebook to take part yeah you just go onto facebook search rosebud reflections and you can join rosebud reflections you just join up and tell your story i do know and you will be hearing more about this i heard at the weekend about a group of people who get together and have a kind of rosebud like a book club they are getting together and having a meal and during while they're eating the meal, they listen to an episode of Rosebud, and then afterwards, they talk about the person they've listened to and what the subject, what's been...

1:03:42That's a good idea, because it just extends what you've been listening to and makes you feel more a part of it. Yeah, it's quite an interesting idea. Yeah, it's a really good idea. The person who said this to me said, oh, she'd loved seeing online some of the food that our friend Becky... Yeah. Becky who is the widow of Simon Cadell and the mother of Michelle's godson Alec who made our website for us which is called rosebudpodcast.co.uk rosebudpodcast.co.uk which you can go to where if you want an alphabetical listing of the past episodes and where there will soon be a picture gallery for fun pictures Becky made us for one of our rosebud lunches after one of the recordings a lovely rosebud flan and a lovely rosebud pudding.

1:04:32That was so nice. And we're going to persuade her to put some of these recipes somewhere, maybe on the Facebook page or on the website. Yeah, you can put them, actually add something. It's a completely new and interesting addition to what you can learn from. For your rosebud parties. For rosebud parties. So you can eat rosebud. Rosebud food. Rosebud food. And maybe have a glass of rosé bud. Yeah. Rose, yeah. Why? Or rose lemonade if you're... Rose lemonade. Yeah, you've got a choice. If you're not a drinker. Maybe we could find somebody who does wine. Cliff Richard. Kylie. She does rosé. Let's get in touch with Cliff, because Cliff has promised to do rosebud one day.

1:05:10He's just never in the country. Or Kylie. And say, do they have some wine that could become rosebud wine? So we'd actually have a party. Rosebud food, rosebud wine. Listen to rosebud. You would expect to pay for it, presumably, or will you just be expecting them to give you everything for it? You can see I was operating in the 60s, darling. We don't require information. We will sort out the financial side of it all at a later date. He'll ask the bursar if he can pay an instalment. Yes, exactly. But there's nothing worse than not being able to pay or wanting to pay. It is a nice idea. The point is, the Rosebud world is growing.

1:05:44Of course it is. We are so grateful to you all for listening to us. I hope you enjoyed this slightly different episode of the Diaries. There'll be more Diaries in a couple of weeks. In between, we get other interesting people to appear on Rosebud. every Friday, a new and remarkable person. That's the world of Rosebud. Thank you so much for being part of it. If you want to get in touch, the address is simply send us an email at... Hello at rosebudpodcast.co.uk Hello at... Hello at rosebudpodcast.com Is that right? Yeah. Not the Rosebud Podcast. I think it's time to give up for the day now. Otherwise things might start going wrong.

1:06:22Michelle, you can have the last word. You can say goodbye. No, I can't do that because I'm not part of the... Yes, you can. You can. You're part of the Rosebud family. What do you want me to say? You can say, thanks for listening to Rosebud. Oh, yeah. Well, that was great fun. I hope you all enjoyed it. And thank you so much for coming to listen to Rosebud. Cue the music.

1:06:56Thank you.

1:07:39Satsang with Mooji