Gyles's diary, episode 27

0:20I am in such happy form today, listeners. This is Giles Brandreth, by the way. This is Maure Rosebud. And I'm in such happy form because Harriet Jane, my friend and producer, has been entertaining me with some of her impressions. You do brilliant impressions. I don't. They're not impressions of people, are they? They're just accents. They're accents. Like the late Queen, Elizabeth II, which I've told you about before, haven't I? Yes. How she enjoyed doing impressions very much. one of her secretaries told me she could do oh he said her reverend Ian Paisley was to die for oh that is a good one but mostly I think she just did regional accents of different kinds I have to say somebody came up to me in the street the other day and said we want Harriet reading all the letters in her Australian accent because in the last diaries you read out a telegram I'd received from the late, great Barry Humphreys in your best Aussie.

1:18Oh, gosh. When I listened back to that, I was worried about people in Australia thinking, I hope I didn't offend any Australians out there. I hope we didn't. They're broad-shouldered. Yes. But, of course, now it's cultural appropriations. I don't know if you are. I think you're allowed to if the people whose accent you're doing are having a lovely time. And the Australians are, aren't they? I hope so. They have the better quality of life than us, I think, probably. Do they? I've never been to Australia. Haven't you? I've never been to Australia. I've never been further than Hong Kong, I don't think.

1:49Oh, someone was saying, someone emailed me today to say you should go to Australia and you would fill up the Sydney Opera House concert hall or something. Well, let's do it. Yeah. Maybe. We're thinking about doing a show. Maybe we should do it in Australia. I mean, I don't want to offend anyone else in other countries around the world, but essentially Australia is the promised land. Is it? Yeah. What about New Zealand? Oh, no, that probably is. I haven't been there. That's even better. People tell me that, but no, it's like a time warp you can go back to 1957 by going to the south island doesn't that sound lovely it wouldn't it but we'd all like oh 1957 we want to go there when enid blighton's view of the world was the world was actually the world that we wanted so i'm in happy form because i'm with you because australian accent went so well and also to be honest i'm quite happy to be here in london england i've been all over the place the last 10 days because you know i'm on this tour promoting my book.

2:42A UK tour. A UK tour. Somewhere, A Boy and a Bear, the biography of A.M. Milne, Christopher Robin, Winnie the Pooh for the upcoming centenary of Winnie the Pooh. So I have been literally everywhere from Henley to the Isle of Wight. Oh, the Isle of Wight was so exciting. Did you see the pictures? Yes. I was invited up into the captain's, what's it called on deck where the captain has his... The, um... Well, wherever it was, the engine room. The bridge. I was on the bridge. I have to say, I thought that wasn't a good idea. Who let you onto the bridge? I was invited by the captain. But that still doesn't seem sensible.

3:19He was waiting, and he said, Welcome aboard, Mr. Brandreth. I said, Captain. He said, actually, I think he said, it's Commodore. Anyway, up I went on the red cat. I think it's a catamaran. And I sat in the assistant pilot's seat. And it was amazing. and there were all these dials in front of me and they told me what it was, the fuel or the water. You didn't touch anything, did you? Wait, wait, wait for it. And I said, what's that one there? That sort of rather strange looking colour and that dial. He said, that is the cess tank, which tells you how full the lavatories are. Oh, really? And how often they have to, yeah.

3:58So the captain's in charge of that as well? As well. He knows everything that's going on on the ship or the boat or the catamaran. Anyway, it's only a short crossing, 28 minutes. And people will be relieved to know he didn't let me drive it. I am relieved. Because he said it's actually quite congested, this little bit of waterway. I thought you were talking about the Sesta. He used to take big ships. He was young. He gave up taking huge ships around the world. He said, because that's boring. He said, because you get onto the Pacific Ocean and for literally 500 miles you don't see any other boat.

4:35You're just going in a straight line. Boring. Whereas he said this, every day there are excitements and challenges, which was interesting. How fun. So that's why he's happy to be doing the Isle of Wight, what we used to call the Isle of Wight ferry. Yeah. That does sound like a fun job actually. I think I'd like that. I tried to persuade him to let me steer us into cows because I said I have actually flown Concorde. He found this hard to believe I was able to produce the photographic evidence years ago, not long in fact before Concord actually fell out of the sky, I flew to New York on Concord and indeed the captain invited me to join him in the captain's cabin, is that what it's called, on the deck.

5:16And he said, would you like to land Concord in New York? And I said I would and he let me. Well, when we landed, I said that was a very smooth landing, I think I did rather well. Can I tell people I landed Concord? And he said You can tell them that, but the truth is you thought you were landing it, but actually I was in control. You were just moving the bits and pieces. Exactly. But I felt I was landing it. Like a child. Like a child. Anyway. I think all this reflects very well on the professional people that are actually in charge of the transport that we use. I would have liked. They're not letting Charles Brandreth suddenly land a plane or man the ferry to the Isle of Wight.

5:54You're in safe hands. On Monday of last week, though, I'd have liked to have been the captain on board the LNER train that took me to Edinburgh. Because we were stopped almost immediately outside Stevenage. The long and the short of it, it kept stopping, stopping, stopping. Eventually, I got to Edinburgh a couple of hours late. I then took the smaller train to Lucas, because I was going to St Andrews. Did you know that's how we had to go to Lucas? Yeah. What would you look for on the notice board if you were taking a train from Edinburgh to Lucas? You'd look for the word Lucas, wouldn't you? Yeah.

6:25But that isn't the last stop. The last stop is Dundee. I didn't know that. So I'm going around saying, where's the train to Lucas? Lucas, well, there's no sign there. And I've got minutes to spare. I must go to Lucas. Somebody said, I'm going to Lucas. Filthy Lucas, you know. I said, very funny. But I'm actually, where is it? He said, don't you know where Lucas is? I said, no. He said, no, it's just past Cooper. I said, where's Cooper? There's nothing. No, Cooper on the signs. Turns out the train was actually ultimately going to Dundee. Yes. Oh, yes. I mean, I don't know that, but you do need to know the final destination when you want looking for a station.

6:56I didn't know that. I get on to the next train, the Dundee train, with about 30 seconds to spare. I'm now by an hour late for the event and on this second train, we're just moving off and I'm texting all the time to the people saying, I'm coming, I'm coming, please read bits of them from Winnie the Pooh and the fellow comes back saying, I've only got a Scots edition of Winnie the Pooh. I say, read the Scots edition, which he did. And apparently it went down very well. Oh, brilliant. People fell about laughing. Anyway, we are just coming out of Edinburgh on this train, going to Lucas, or rather going to Dundee, comes to a halt.

7:37And the voice says, If there are any people with medical experience on the train, would you please make your way to coach me? Oh, dear. To my amazement, almost everybody in the train got up and began proceeding to coach B. Really? Full of qualified people. Wow. People who felt they had medical experience. Yeah. Maybe doctors and nurses. They'd just been to the doctors once. Or maybe there were people hoping to see a doctor, thought, well, there's going to be a doctor of some sort in Coach B. It's easier to get an appointment in Coach B than it is by ringing my local surgery. Anyway, we shouldn't laugh, because I don't know what happened to the unfortunate person who was ill in Coach B.

8:16But what we then did discover, the next station was Kirkoddy, and the train stopped in Kirkoddy. where we waited for what seemed like an hour. Because understandably, they can't just put the body onto the platform and move on. Because I thought, well, you know, they can just... What, the person died? Well, I don't know if they died. They had to wait for an ambulance. The point is, the train staff had to wait for the ambulance to get to Kierkadi, to the station. Oh, they couldn't just put the ailing person on the platform. Yeah, the ailing person say, look after, you know. Just lie there. Lie there, the ambulance will be home shortly.

8:50Love your accent. I was doing all that because I remember yours is actually better than mine I can't get it Dr Snotty Dr Cameron here Janet Janet get me the scones he's on platform four he's only been there for five hours well eventually the train did move off we saw the blue light of there and I hope because I think NHS Fife are marvellous because they've helped me in the past yes you've had a run in I've had a run in and I've been to the hospital in Kerkoddy too and I was very ashamed as I went in. I said rather loudly, oh yes, Gordon and Sarah have told me how good it is because Gordon Brown was the local MP.

9:29And I thought maybe if I drop a name. That's when I broke my arm a few years ago. This is by the by. I got to St. Andrews. I got to the venue an hour later than advertised. Some people have been waiting there for two and a half hours. Almost everybody stayed. Isn't that fatic? and it became because I was I suppose slightly hysterical as perhaps you sense I think I am I treated it like a revivalist meeting we were in a church and there seemed to be a font on the altar I mean I was standing in front of the altar but on the sort of dais where the altar was there was also a font and I thought this is too marvelous so I emptied my water my uh Scottish Highland water uh still not sparkling into the font and i began offering baptisms well you put you put some water off the train into your yes you can't do that giles it's got to be blessed i did it oh you blessed i blessed it oh good i got carried away and i said by the end of the evening there will be speaking in tongues anyway it have to say i don't think i've ever spoken better so something did touch you that evening yes the men in white coats arriving from kirkadi general hospital no i think i was slightly hysterical and i think i was so moved by these people staying for over an hour to listen i tried i thought i must give them my best and so i tried to give them my all and it was a very happy evening oh this is what i meant to say to you ariot while i was inst andrews i went to edinburgh andst andrews but in St.

11:09Andrews, I was in Starbucks last week. I think it was on the day that last week's More Rosebud came out. And I was sitting there doing some work on my laptop with a coffee, very nice Starbucks, just down from Waterstones. And a lady came over to me. She had been sitting opposite me, looking at me. And that does sometimes happen. People think, you know, who is he? I half-recognize him, who is he? You know, maybe they think I was on jury service once. I feel I recognize that face. Anyway, she came over. He's the man that was driving the ferry last Saturday. And she had tears in her eyes. And she said, I can't believe it's you.

11:47I can't. It is you, isn't it? I can't believe it's you. Is it you? So I showed her my jumper to prove it was me. She said, I can't believe it. I'm just, I'm sitting here and I'm listening to Rosebud. I'm listening to Harriet. And I love Harriet. And she had tears in her eyes. And it was last week's episode where we had Julia Samuel. and we were talking about bereavement and grief works and all that she does in that area. And you shared some of your story very movingly. But wasn't that extraordinary to meet somebody who was actually listening to the podcast while I was there in St. Andrews of all places.

12:21But did we get, I'm sure we got quite a response. We did, we did, yes. And we just wanted to say thanks to everyone who emailed because lots and lots of people emailed and wrote comments on Instagram. and I'm going to really try and reply to all of you. Some of you wrote such lovely long and interesting and moving emails. So I really do try and reply. I'm sure some of you have had lovely replies for me and some of you are thinking, where's my lovely reply? But I will get round to it. I just wanted to quickly mention some of the people who've written in lovely messages from Sue Lemon, Darren Gibbons, Marie Willey, leanne duncan john ward kate bridger and vassi carter vassi i must send you a long email because you've sent me such a lovely one um but yeah so i'm not going to read all those emails out giles no i hope somebody else is going to email in and tell us because i think we mentioned this before what it is that causes tears why no one has we cry where the tears come from what they are doing because sometimes we cry in pain, sometimes we cry from laughter, sometimes we cry from emotional release.

13:40I have found, doing my tour, and it's partly because I suppose I'm tired, also I'm sort of emotionally engaged in the subject of my book, but almost invariably, at the end of my talk, I find myself tearing up which is not a good thing actually in a performer the rule is if the performer cries the audience don't that's a general theatrical rule so I don't like doing it even in an actor oh no well if you're talking about something emotional like at the end of my story I'm talking about the nature of childhood and what, and A. A. Milne and his Christopher Robin and all of that, it's quite complicated unless you know the whole story.

14:34And there is a kind of emotional charge to it. And I'm actually, I invite people to think about their parents and whether if they had an unhappy childhood and if they had a happy child to reflect on these things and it leads up to a finish of sorts. And I find I'm often in tears and I don't know why it is. I knew the actor, Sir John Gielgud, and he would, for example, he would do a speech from Richard II and he would always cry near it during it. I mean, if you ask him about it, he's really his most unfortunate bladder too near my eyes. I'm so sorry. That was his little joke. But clearly he felt an emotional engagement with certain lines of Shakespeare that automatically triggered these tears.

15:22And I saw him do it when he did a charity show years ago and he did the rehearsal. and they did it at both the performances at exactly the same point lots of tears streamed down his face wow extraordinary gosh so what causes that so maybe people can email us about that as well yeah what is our email address hello at rosebudpodcast.com well the email you've chosen for us to read today is from a listener called jessica markwell she comes from wales and she's been in touch to say that she enjoyed hearing michelle oh my wife michelle who was with us for the last Diaries episode, talking about Ashford Grammar School for Girls.

15:59And she writes, I went there to Ashford Grammar School a few years after Michelle, and I've often thought how much I owe the teachers who showed patience and encouragement while trying to educate me. Miss Smith and Miss Frances were in charge in my day, both formidable in their different ways. The teacher to whom I owe most was Miss Buckley, who somehow managed to help me get a grade B in my Latin A level. miss buckley couldn't bear to be indoors on a sunny day and used to say come on girls let's go outside we would sit under the shade of the tree studying horace and virgil i much enjoy the rose podcast and it was an extra treat to hear michelle best wishes jessica well we obviously must ask michelle to join us again another day and we will yes nice to hear some teachers getting yeah a mention isn't it yes i mean my goodness we all have a teacher in our heads don't we yes i know you have a few well i'm a sentimental little thing as you know that's nice instagram we're on instagram aren't we yes what do we if you want to do a follow so there what do i do just search rosebud podcast fine facebook this isn't us this is sort of a group of people who just got going there's 1 300 members now good lord what do they do they just get in touch and oh it's so fun you'd love it Giles you need to join Facebook and have a look well I must also maybe that's the way that's the place for Charlotte our 18 year old follower who has been making our rosebud cakes oh yeah maybe that's where she could put the recipe and the brilliant and photographs of the cakes yeah and I sometimes do long posts and lots of people share their memories and photos of themselves and it's called rosebud reflections that's it's a group on Facebook you can join that yeah good and people obviously um can get in touch by email that's contacting you really hello at rosebudpodcast.com and there's our website where there's an alphabetical list of all the past episodes and will soon be a photo gallery which is quite fun rosebudpodcast.co.uk and it's mainly pictures of us some of our guests but also some childhood pictures of us there's a picture of me and my mum i think it's gonna be a picture of you and your mum oh that's okay so So we're getting that together.

18:15That's going to be happening soon. So we're now going to go on to the diaries. Hooray. 1970, John. 1970. Goodbye, the 60s. Hello, the 70s. Thursday, the 1st of January, 1970. And you will remember that at the end of the year, I had this television show. I was 21, or whatever I was, and still at university. And I had my own TV show on ITV, Saturday night, I think, prime time, called Child of the 60s. On New Year's Eve, was it? Was it? 1969. Yeah, so it was at the end of 1969. I mean, prime time slot, John. Yeah, extraordinary, really. Yeah, and we left you. Do you remember, Michelle, you and I left wondering what the reception was going to be?

19:01Well, now we're going to find out. We're going to find out right now, everybody. Thursday, 1st January, 1970. The dust is settling. The fan mail is sorted. The press cuttings are pasted in. my favorite is monday's daily sketch the headline reads suddenly a new frost is born that must be a reference to david frost who was huge at the time and alongside a photo of me taken in the school room at 5h a full page story success to giles brandreth means being giles brandreth which means that overnight fame is unlikely to turn the head of this cool self-assured young man. Giles is the 21-year-old student who appeared on a London Weekend television look-back programme on Saturday night and was told afterwards, you can write your own ticket in TV now.

19:51Lots of letters from Grandpa and Aunt Edith, from Penny Wilson's parents, of all people after all this time, from Cordelia Fraser, laughing at another headline, child of the 60s, heartthrob of the 70s. From Egg, Harold Gardner, my old teacher, etc., etc. I've sent thank-you notes to all of them. I've not written to all the strangers. Some really strange people were watching, including Glenda Spooner, chairman of the Ponies of Britain, who asks, Do you mean to say that you will not object to or deplore it if one day there's a coloured majority in this country? Also watching, Harriet, it turns out, was someone called Richard Crossman.

20:38Does that name mean anything to you? He was a Labour politician, a Labour cabinet minister, very famous in his day. He was, I think, Secretary of State for Health and Education at the time. Anyway, on the 31st of December, he recorded in his diary, and I discovered this later when the diaries were published, this Christmas and New Year, this is him writing Crossman, there have been a whole series of television programmes looking back, not only on 1969, but on the whole decade. I saw one which had the president of the Oxford Union, a young Tory, handsome, good-looking, waving his delicate fingers about as he sat on a dais and put questions.

21:14This is a strange thing. To Michael Foote, Elizabeth Longford, Ian McLeod and Alf Friendly. The idea was to see the 1960s through the eyes of a child of the decade, someone who had grown up in the age of television. This young man had no ideas or ideals. He just shared the general disillusionment, and all his illustrations of the decade were public occasions in the newsreels. Vietnam, the murder of Jack Kennedy, the murder of Robert Kennedy, of Martin Luther King, everything that obviously illustrated the 1960s as a period of degeneration, decline, disappointment, lack of hope, deflation. This young man didn't stand for anything.

21:52Michael struggled with him from his elderly position. elizabeth in her own catholic style stood for something and even ian mcleod did but it was an extremely depressing program not only were they being cross-examined by this young pup but they fawned on him all saying it's you that matters your ideals your beliefs interesting do you think he was he right yeah no i but it's interesting that he a senior cabinet Minister, writing about it, got that impression of me. Because, of course, we were picking out the obvious newsreel moments. I'd chosen them with the maker of the programme. And I didn't think, funnily enough, it was my place to express my own views.

22:39I was there to bring it out of other people. But people do expect you to take views. Sometimes, don't you find this odd, the people listening to our guests on Friday think somehow we have to give them our endorsement because we're giving them an opportunity to say their thing. Yes, I don't agree with that. I think we can just be a place for lots of people of different opinions and beliefs to talk. But what I wanted to ask about that is it sounds as if he thought the tone of the programme and what you were saying about the 60s was essentially that it was a period of decline or is that what you thought about the 60s?

23:15I did. Because in fact, we covered the swinging sisters as well. Exactly. We covered the Beatles, all the exciting changes that were going on. No. I mean, I think when it's interesting, I gave him the impression that I was a vacuous young pup, that the older people were fawning on me, that this was, I think, what depressed him was that this is the television age, and it's people like this who are going to see in the future. Well, he thought you were good looking, so that's something, Jules. Yeah, yeah. It's probably the only reason that I... Put it in the dark. Put it in the... You kept it as a cutting in my diaries book.

23:47Yes, handsome, handsome. Yes, handsome, very good. And I got some amazing letters. What, fan mail? Fan mail from people, you know, saying how cute I was. What, proposals? That sort of thing. Ooh. Yeah, yeah. Any, maybe you can't say this these days, any underwear in the post? No, no underwear in the post. One of the most unlikely letters came from Dennis Lipton, Associate Director of Crawford's Advertising. no doubt you are being inundated with offers and i do not suppose you've even considered doing any commercials however we are responsible for advertising milk and we're looking for someone really outstanding and new to television to act as presenter or almost a host in a new and exciting series of commercials we are planning and you could well fill the bill i'm having lunch with Mr Lipton in High Holborn in an hour's time.

24:43Giles Brandreth, the new face of milk. Who knows what excitements the new year will bring. I hope you did that, Giles. Advertising, I mean, that's amazing. The face of milk. What would your, just give me a flavour of what you'd have done. I don't know what I'd have done. This was the era when you had gold top, silver top, green and red top, different kinds of milk you know how about milk you'll be drinking it till the cows come home you're really funny harriet jane my gosh i can't top that oh i can't even i can't even gold top that brilliant okay let's go on wednesday the 7th of january 1970 we must put ourselves together Harriet.

25:31I've had a coffee. It's absolutely good. We're both slightly hysterical. We don't want people writing in saying, well, the diaries were good in the old days, but now they can't stop themselves bantering on.

25:47Wednesday, 7th January 1970. Last night was 12th night and we had the usual family ritual, unwrapping one last Christmas present before taking down all the decorations. It was cosy, except Ma isn't feeling very well. It isn't Asian flu, and Pa is worried about money. We were festive all the same. Today, a letter from Fanny Craddock. Giles, dear, she begins, this is a difficult letter because I want to talk to you properly. We watched your television debut, of course. We were staying at grave time, and we canvassed opinions afterwards. This is what I want to talk to you about. Of course, it was a tour de force, and you are ever so slightly precocious to have subdued that awful Michael Foote, who almost behaved like a civilized human being.

26:37Of course, you are what we call, in typically southerly manner, a natural. But you are using your hands too much even so. Try sitting on them, not putting them in your trouser pockets, which can be misconstrued. Concentrate on your flair for changing voice levels. It is enormously effective but capable of getting mannered, if you do not train yourself to become conscious of it without getting self-conscious. Come to supper soon. We can for once guarantee you will enjoy yourself, because we shall talk incessantly about you. Mm-hmm. What a great letter. What a great letter. What a great lady Fanny Craddock was.

27:19Sunday, 25th January 1970. calls proposals articles one spectator two punch three honey four vogue five sun six mirror magazine seven atv eight stv nine ray collie bbc manchester ten woman's hour 11 book 12 irene josefi academic priorities this week essays for alex de jong new college richard cob baliol theodore Zeldin, St. Anthony's, Balzac, Racine, Andromac, Robespierre. My priority this term must be the academic work. It must be. I have so much to catch up on. So much. Lovely letter from Mr. Stocks. He must be in his 90s now. He still hopes that I am the hardest worker in the world, and therefore really happy.

28:12You will recall this old school theme of mine. I do. He goes on, Have you yet discovered and absorbed the great Teilhard de Chardin? If not, start on him, because he is a really wonderful inspiration. After studying the phenomenon of man, I felt that I was quite different, much calmer and more balanced, and the feeling has lasted. He feels pretty sure that I am, or will be, a Teilhardian. I must explore, but not today. Today, a French prose requires my attention. Now. Now. That sounds like an interesting thing to read. Yes, Terre de Chardin. I bought it 55 years ago in January 1970. It is still on the shelf.

29:03Between now and I next see you, Harriet, I'll try to open it. But it's amazing how you can absorb the philosophy of a book just by it being on your bookshelf, don't you think? Do you believe that? No, but I think it would be nice if you could. I know you could almost mean that. But you can see what a good man. This is an old headmaster writing to an old pupil with good advice, kind advice. It's actually rather moving, isn't it? Lovely. Thursday, 29th January 1970. Mick Jagger has been presented with a£200 fine for possession of cannabis. I've been presented with a bill for£65, three shillings and one penny for last term's presidential entertainment of the union, inclusive of sherry, dinner and supper.

29:46Jagger can afford to pay his fine. I'm not sure about my bill. I entertained 28 guests, it seems, who don't count as official guests and I have to cover their costs. Hey-ho. Money does not interest me, but I know it's important. When I was Hugh Anderson's guest to the Cambridge Union and met Neil Shand, scriptwriter to David Frost, Spike Milligan and Co., Shand said to me, you've got to decide Giles are you going to be a 5 ,000 a year man or a 10 ,000 a year man you can get to 5 ,000 a year and have a good life aim for 10 ,000 pounds a year and it will kill you Pa earns around 5 ,000 pounds as a successful London solicitor it's a lot but it isn't quite enough tutorials with Zeldin and Cobb today both a little mad but I like that Saturday 7th February 1970 Not my day Letter from Crawford's Advertising Advertising is a very fickle business and we have in fact decided to abandon altogether the idea of a presenter show for milk It's a pity, but there it is I think this is my favourite ever mini strand in your diaries Well, if you'd seen me, I was so good I find it very funny.

31:11Because we went in and we made it, and I had a lovely suit made and everything and all that, and then I was drinking the milk and saying, come on down, and interviewing the young mums and the other people who were drinking the milk and loving it. We made it, and then they decided to abandon it. Gosh, we've got to dig that out. Do you think it's somewhere there online? Probably not, unfortunately. There is quite an amusing commercial with me somewhere online, presenting from the 1980s. Walls, I think it's Walls, waffles. Oh, I love a Walls waffle. Yeah, anyway, that's quite fun. At twelve noon, I went over to the warden's lodgings to have drinks with Harold Macmillan.

31:46Oh, Giles. As I arrived, Sir William said, He's curled up by the fire. Go and keep him company. Like a dog or a cat. Well, wait and see. I found the former Prime Minister seated in a large armchair with his back to the room. His eyes were closed and his hands were resting on his cane between his knees. I sat at his feet for three quarters of an hour making occasional small talk. The great man dozed throughout. Friday, 13th February, 1970. Yesterday, I cancelled my Zeldin tutorial and went to London to meet Robin Denniston, editorial director of the publishers Hodder and Stoughton in Bedford Square.

32:28He sent me a telegram last term asking me if I wanted to write a book. I've just telephoned Irene, that's Irene Josephi, my literary agent, and the deal is agreed. Hodders are buying my book, Created in Captivity, a study of prison life and the effect of creative work on the rehabilitation of offenders. I wanted to sign my first book deal while I was still 21, and I have. The papers have been full of pieces about Bertrand Russell. That was the philosopher, I think who died a few days before. I like this line of his. Men who are unhappy, like men who sleep badly, are always proud of the fact. That's fun.

33:13It's a great line, isn't it? That's a marvellous line. Marvellous line. Can I say, Harriet, that line is going to improve our relationship, no end, because I'm always banging on at you about my problems and about how I don't sleep, and no more. You've heard the last of my problems, and you've had the last one I'm not liking to sleep. Gosh. Yep. Amazing. Just from one line. One line. That's brilliant. But it's a line from Bertrand Russell. It's good, it's good. Well done, Bertie. Today, I am happy. And this weekend, I will be happier still. I'm joining Michelle for Valentine's Day in Ashford. We're having a celebratory dinner at the George Hotel.

33:53Friday, 10th April 1970. At lunchtime in Eastbourne, I became the youngest person ever to address the Institute of Public Relations annual conference. My theme, the generation gap. My fee,£15 plus£6 expenses. It was fine, except I don't think I gave them enough of what they hoped for. Stuff about pot and protest and girls on the pill. Of course, that's part of the picture, but only a part. On the whole, it's a pretty innocent world out there. Andy Williams, Mary Hopkin and Dana atop of the pops and the best-selling book this year is the New English Bible a million copies sold on publication day last month and 20 ,000 a week still flying out of the shops that said, tonight Michelle and I witnessed theatre history of a sort the first attempt to sing the F word on the West End stage we went to see Mandrake at the Criterion Theatre It is a musical inspired by Machiavelli's Mandragula, and it's a collector's item.

35:01It's so atrocious. Roy Kinnear sets the tone when he comes on stage with a beer bottle significantly positioned in his codpiece. And the first half-closer has the hero singing full blast, and guess what luck, yes guess what luck, tonight I'm having my first, and the curtain falls. Monday the 27th of April 1970 Today at Broadcasting House over lunch To amuse the extraordinarily prim and proper ladies at Woman's Hour I attempted my impression of Lee Marvin Talk singing Wandering Star Do you remember that one? Yeah How did it go?

35:45I was born Under a wandering star That's it. You do it much better than me. It left the earnest blue stockings suitably bemused. But I think Michelle would have been impressed. She'd have considered it a move in the right direction, just a touch more contemporary than my impression of Noel Card. Oh, come on. What's that? Noel Card. I could do Noel Card. Noel Card. I mean, Noel Card was my hero. Yes. Yes, Noel Card. This is me being Noel Card. Brilliant. It's ridiculous. Milk. Drink it. Yes, milk. milk drink it till the cows come home michelle would prefer me to be offering impressions of simon and garfunkel singing bridge over troubled water quite right that's where the real money is anyway today for eight pounds i gave a talk on woman's hour about the horrors of examinations and off air the talk around the table was of tony curtis being fined 50 pounds for possessing cannabis.

36:46I have never taken cannabis. I wouldn't know how, but because I'm 22 now, and at Oxford, they all look at me as if I'm the expert on all things permissive. The permissive society is the phrase of the hour. That's all anyone's talking about. I feel that's all anyone's talking about. I feel another woman's hour talk coming on. From Broadcasting House to White City and BBC Television Centre, and at 6pm my meeting with Paul Fox, controller, BBC One. He's a force to reckon with in the land, and he knows it. He was fairly genial, but quite grand. He's a large man with a large office and a large retinue of secretaries and assistants.

37:31He is treated like a god and is a touch of the Buddha about his appearance. I tried not to burble too much, but I don't think I succeeded. He said I should go and see Aubrey Slinger, head of Features Television, and Christopher Brasher, head of General Features Television. I asked him what was the difference between Features and General Features. He laughed. I'm not sure. This is the BBC. Will this lead to anything? I wonder. He looked at me as if I was a slightly exotic creature, somewhat alien to his world. He said more than once, you're a very strong taste, you know, a very strong taste. Thursday, 4th June, 1970.

38:18I begin my finals today. I'm as ready as I ever will be. I've been rising at six and revising, revising, revising. I know what we need to achieve. Comprehensive and thoughtful answers to the questions being asked. plus that little extra something. We shall see later. It was history. It was okay. Oddly, the formality of it all really helps. At B-Dales, you wore what you wanted for exams. Here we wear sub-fusk. Dark suit, white shirt, white tie, gown, mortarboard. Everyone looks the same. There are no distractions. And the concentration in the room is intense. I was nervous, hands sweating, until I turned over the paper and read the questions and took out my pen and started.

39:09Then it had its own momentum. Lots of cards from family arrived today. One from Ma on behalf of Brother Ben. A drawing by her of a Schultz Peanuts character at his desk at school with his hand up. Happiness is knowing the answers. Do you remember taking finals? was it like that for you yes well I remember I um always wrote with a fountain pen which probably lots of teenagers do I went through that stage and I always used to take a bottle of ink with me everywhere that I went and I took one into my exam because I was just wedded to this idea of filling up my pen with ink and the examiner sensibly said to me that's not a good idea you've got ink in your exam but I insisted and halfway through my English the old English or one of those papers where you have to Anglo-Saxon or something Anglo-Saxon I spilt the ink all over the exam paper no but luckily I was so far ahead in this exam I just wrote the whole page out again and it was fine but what a silly billy I never took a bottle of ink in again but it's interesting because I definitely wrote with a fountain pen.

40:27I think in my day, maybe you had to write with a fountain pen. I don't think a biro would have been allowed. Yeah. So maybe they were inkwells. You probably had inkwells, maybe. My gosh, all that. Oh, wow. Okay. Maybe you had a small boy just sounding like an ink, a pot of ink. Monday the 8th of June, 1970. E.M. Forster died yesterday, age 91. Michelle collected her degree on Saturday, our second anniversary. The general election is happening on Thursday the 18th of June, with Harold Wilson set fair to win. No other news, because I'm in the midst of my finals. France, 1870 to 1914, begins in half an hour.

41:06Wish me luck. Thank you. Thursday the 18th of June, 1970. All done. My last exam, French prose, completed this morning. Not wonderful, but I hope adequate. And at least I completed all the papers. There were some who simply turned up, turned over the paper and sat gazing at it for three hours without lifting a pen. Oh no. When it was over, the high, that's the high street, was awash with revelling undergraduates breaking open bottles of champagne. I didn't linger. I ran back to my room, changed, picked up my briefcase and ran on to the station. I'm now on the train to London. A, to get my hair cut with Michael at Crimper's in Baker Street, and B, to vote for Quentin Hogg in St.

41:53Marilyn, my first vote in a general election. As Mr. Hogg reminds us in his election leaflet, your vote is a responsibility as well as a right. His leaflet is a model of its kind, clear, personal, to the point, and with a message from his wife on the back. When I voted, I'm coming straight back to Oxford to be on parade at the Union to take part in the BBC's election programme Outside Broadcast.

42:28Friday 19th June 1970. Hair done, vote cast, I got back to Oxford in time to take part in the BBC Outside Broadcast from the Union Garden and join in the revels. much mockery from Alex de Jong and Anthony Palliser both in their cups about my traveling to London to get my hair done I did not reveal to them that I was returning to London again to be on standby this morning to be interviewed by Robin Day in the election studio at television center Jack Straw president of the National Union of Students and I were the chosen representatives of British youth. Him for Labour, me for the Conservatives.

43:06He's much more overtly political and serious and made great play of knowing Wilson and all the senior Labour people. But we got on well enough. The whole BBC circus was extraordinary. The chaotic comings and goings and the sense of bewilderment, hysteria that the result was not what they'd expected or planned for. They were all set for a Labour victory and suddenly had to change tack. Interesting to note for me how well the politicians got on with one another, regardless of party, how wary they were of the BBC people and how pleased with himself Robin Day is. It really is Mr Toad in a bow tie.

43:48Later, the result. Conservatives, 330 seats. Labour, 287. Liberals, 6. Others, 7. Mr Heath is promising strong and honest government. Jack Straw's chums and are asking themselves what went wrong, and my friend Ian MacLeod is set to become Chancellor of the Exchequer. I'm rather pleased that my Oxford career should come to an end on the very day of the general election. It's been a good three years, but I'm ready to move on. Clearly, the country is ready to move on too. I've taken the last exam I will ever take. I've been having dreams, nightmares really, about finals. Now they can stop and I can start earning my living in earnest.

44:36For my contribution to the general election programme, I'm getting£35 plus£6 expenses, train fare and overnight. Final thought, read Jack Straw. Which of us will become Home Secretary first. That's an interesting thought, Giles. He did, didn't he? He did become Home Secretary first. I didn't become Home Secretary. But of course it's time. Oh, yeah. Why not? Late life Home Secretary. Watch out. I was going to say watch out Yvette Cooper, but it's not, is it? It's... Oh, Shabana. Well, anyway, I like Jack Straw and, I mean, obviously I've known him over the years since then. What I wanted to ask you, really, was about those dreams.

45:17Did you have dreams about finals? I wanted to ask you. Yes, I still have anxiety dreams about exams every now and then. Oh, really? I have anxiety dreams, but I'm usually in an aeroplane of some sort or inside a flying craft. And it's having to negotiate precipices and objects that are very close to one another. And I'm sort of in this flying craft going between rocks and hard places. Those are my anxiety dreams. Yeah, there's a bit like Top Gun. He does that. Tom Cruise has to do that. My most common anxiety dream used to be all my teeth falling out. Oh. I don't have that anymore. It is driving a car but not being able to see out of the windscreen.

46:02I'm crouched down by the pedals but I can't see out of the window. We have a lot of therapists now listening to us because of some of the themes we cover. Yeah. I'd be grateful they could get in touch to explain about this losing your teeth. Yeah. Fear. apparently it's very common um means fear of aging oh yeah that is interesting that's what it's about but i decided it was actually because i was genuinely worried about my teeth because since my teeth have got better i don't have it anymore so did you have bad teeth you have problems with teeth i think when i was oh this we are rambling on this episode when i was pregnant and breastfeeding it affected it's quite common to have that affects your teeth and yeah i think I had sensitive gums at the time.

46:46That was the main reason I was having the tea tree. Well, I have to tell you, the sensitivity has spread all over you now. You're just a sensitive soul. Yes. Well, that's aging. But if people know you're not aging and you're very youthful looking, so you need to worry. But if people have got explanations for any of these fears, we love to hear from people with their nightmare stories. Good. So, wait, Giles, before we finish this episode, so that's it. You finished Oxford. So, now, this is very interesting. Not very interesting, Harriet. It's quite interesting, Harriet. As you know, I was in St.

47:19Andrews, as we mentioned at the beginning, visiting my granddaughter, Isolde, who is studying medicine. She knows she wants to be a doctor. Marvellous. I envy her. I left Oxford having done all the things I wanted to do there, having directed the Dramatic Society, you know, put on a show, having edited the magazine ISIS, having become president of the union. I had my own television show by then. All these exciting things happening to me. But I don't think I really knew what I wanted to be in the short term. Clearly, from that reference to Jack Straw there, in the long term, I sensed I would have a political future.

47:57And my ambition was to be Home Secretary. I never voiced it, but really my ambition would have been to be Prime Minister. But in the short term, I don't think I knew what I was going to do. So it'll be interesting to see what happens next. I'm loving going back to these diaries. Yeah. So you weren't just thinking of carrying on with the TV career? No, because, and this, maybe I shouldn't say this, but I will say it. You can decide to cut it out or not. I think I knew then, having done a bit of television already, that I didn't love it. Oh. I did not love it. And for many years, I did not love television.

48:36Gosh, that's a surprise. Which is interesting. I do love it now. You do love it now. I love it now. I love what I do on television. I'm happy on television. I really love it. And I only say yes to programmes I think I'm going to enjoy. And I love doing television. But for many years, I didn't love it. And I think, I mean, this is going to be absurd. I think it was reading about Laurence Olivier, the great actor, feeling he couldn't play a certain part of the 1940s, the part of Sergius in the play Arms and the Man. And his director saying to him, of course you can't play it, you don't love him.

49:16Oh, you've mentioned that before. You've got to love the character, you've got to be. And I found that I can only do really well what I love doing. And I think it took me a while to find what I loved doing. So I think we will find, I can't really remember the detail, but I think we will find that over the next few years, I do lots of different things, reasonably successfully some, not so successfully others. I say yes to lots of things without thinking it through, just doing it, you know. But it's only the things that I love that I really do well and that sustain me. So, well, we'll see what happens next.

49:58That's so interesting, Giles. Yes, of course. I think very interesting. What did you, I mean... No, no, no, wait. wait wait i just want to ask you a bit so do you think you didn't love television initially because you were cynical is it about cynicism is it about letting go of cynicism yeah perhaps that was it perhaps i was rather superior to it yeah you can see my similar you can see from the diary my slightly i mean i'm only 21 my slightly sort of superior view of the bbc yeah i mean i'm going to watch what an excitement behind the scenes at bbc election night and i'm patronizing the chief performer.

50:34I'm writing in my diary that he's like Mr Toad. He's the most successful interviewer television had known. And there I am writing about him in those terms. I go to meet the controller of BBC One. I mean, can you imagine? It's almost impossible to meet the controller of anything nowadays. But in those days, the controller of BBC One really was the controller of BBC One. He decided what goes on at what time. And I'm having a private hour with him, with drinks and chats. But he is telling me something. He's telling me you are a very strong taste which is he is expressing to me you're not really what we are looking for now you're a strong taste too strong for mainstream bbc one so i think i must have absorbed that and i probably thought about him you're not really my cup of tea either i got to know him later when he went on to run yorkshire television um and i think i i liked him probably more then but it's a slight arrogance that you have at that age.

51:28I didn't respect it, you see. I respected the theatre. Yes. I wish I'd been more into movies because I might have gone into movies. I respected the theatre most of all. And also, I loved radio. Right from the beginning, I loved radio. I loved doing the women's art things. So right from the beginning, I think we'll see, I'm more at home in radio than television. Though I do do, I think we're going to discover, I do do quite a lot of all of them. Yeah. I mean, I must be the most privileged person you've ever met. I've had every opportunity although the listeners have ever heard I was given every opportunity you can imagine let me ask you when you left university with a fabulous degree I know you don't like me talking about it but when you left university with your fabulous degree what did you want to do?

52:13I wanted to be a journalist oh and what kind of journalist? I didn't really know sort of features but I wouldn't have minded being a proper journalist I think but I then I did some work experience that's what I was in that age where you do work experience what work experience did you do I did a week or two on the observer because I got I wrote a letter to Alan Rusbridger the editor and I was sort of probably at the end of the days where if he got a letter from a girl who'd been to Oxford or Cambridge he just went he wrote back and just said yeah come in and meet me which I did and he then met you and thought you were charming and gave you work experience I mean it's much more difficult than that now I'm sorry to say but so I went and did that which was really fun but I made a mistake during that two weeks a minor mistake I looking back but I felt so mortified and it slightly put me off being a journalist which was I I had to write a column which involved just ringing two people up and getting their opinions and typing them up anyway i didn't get the spelling of one of their names made up the spelling it got printed in the paper wrongly and then one of the deputy editors came up and sat next to me one the afternoon of the print and said we've had to stop the presses because you mistyped the name and in this sort of he said it in this kind of hushed awful voice i remember still the sort of sinking feeling of shame and um anyway then i applied for some job in television got it and then i just got a job in tv instead what was the job i mean graduate trainee it was a scheme it was a project i mean it was difficult to get you know i had to go through all these rounds and again you know sorry to people listening now who are graduates because it's so much more difficult now unfortunately but i did get this really good onto this very good scheme, which was two years long and it was a salary.

54:20So then I just got siphoned into telly, which actually I think was much more suited to me because it's, television's much more collaborative, it's working in a team, it's more fun. And being a journalist is hard and it's lonely and it's competitive and it's a dog eat dog world. And I'm glad I didn't do that. One of the good things about the modern world though, is though it's much more difficult, as you rightly say to get on it is to enter the bottom and climb and that's the way to do it you also can do your own thing now and that's brilliant and that is exciting like we're doing like we're doing i mean this is a two-person podcast we had the idea we got together we made it it's now happening it's still just the two of us yeah i was at a film showing the other day with a very distinguished director whose name will come to be remembered a famous director and there was a young man in the audience who at the end put up his hand and asked this director he said I want to get into I wanted to get into the movies how do I do it how do I begin you know I'm writing all these letters how do I begin and this famous director said to him have you got a mobile phone and the fellow said yes he said make a film on that yeah and send it to me in a year's time he said that's the way make a short film if it's good you'll get it into a festival yeah you know That is the way to do it.

55:37So in some ways, the world has changed. Yeah, it's opened up. Yeah, so if you're listening and thinking, oh, I wish I had a podcast, just do it. And it might be... But don't do it too well. Do not do it too well. We are... And it's the other secret. Yeah, we don't want to do many competitors. Can I tell you, Mr. Stocks, the 90-year-old who wrote to me saying you're still working as hard as ever. Mr. Stocks, I am still working as hard as ever. It takes hard work. That's true. I mean, when you said, I must be the luckiest, most privileged person you've ever met, you also are very hard-working Giles and that is part of it isn't it yeah hard-working and still frantically ambitious oh yeah off air I mean actually last Friday and then we will stop Harriet last Friday Harriet was quite sharp with me because I was was I?

56:23you were oh and you then said I know I'm being sharp with you because I was saying have we done this have we done that have we done that and you said we know everything we know it you don't need to go on all the time and so we work hard and we are ambitious so rest assured if you're starting your podcast we are going to keep running oh faster and faster oh i see raising our game wow because there'll be young kids listening to this thing we could do this better oh you're laying down the gauntlet i'm laying i'm there is no gauntlet oh we've got the gauntlet we are the gauntlet we are the gauntlet We are the gauntlet.

57:05Milk. Drink it till the cows come home. And the cows have come home. Cue the Swiss cowbells.

57:32Thank you.

58:03That was more Rosebud with music by Phil Leppard, production by Harriet Jane, and in the chair, me, Charles Brandreth. Thank you for listening.