Gyles's diary, episode 28

0:00Can you have too much of a good thing? can you? that's the question well if it's only a good thing you can but if it's rosebud sure you can't of course you can't that's why this Tuesday we're bringing you every Tuesday more rosebud stay tuned cue the music

0:35Welcome to another episode of More Rosebud. This is one of those weeks where we are dipping into my diaries. If you've not discovered the diaries before, please scroll back. We begin, I think, oh really, late 1950s, early 1960s. We've reached 1970. And today in the Rosebud studio, it's not just me and my producer and friend, Harriet Jane, but my wife Michelle is joining us again and how are you Michelle? I'm feeling absolutely marvellous. Well this is very good news. What I wanted to begin by asking you both only because I was having a conversation with somebody earlier about this can you in life have too much of a good thing?

1:18I was talking to somebody who had been married for a number of years has children and he was telling me how he loved going home on days when he wasn't working to see his wife but maybe sometimes he loved going home on days when she was out and quite liked being on his own can you have too much for a good thing michelle are there ever days when you are grateful not to see me no there aren't actually i hate it being in the house when i'm on my own i think there must be something wrong with me sorry about that what about you harriet oh so sweet michelle that's really nice uh is the question do i like being on my own or is the question can you have too much of a good thing yeah it's both questions do you like being on your own um sometimes yes yeah but I think what I like is being on my own with other people around so I like doing my own thing like gardening or listening to music or being in my office but I like that the idea that there are other people in the house I could go off and have a chat to briefly yeah I mean I like being on my own surrounded by people in the sense that I do a lot of thinking and work in coffee shops I quite like being in a busy place on a train yeah that's I'm very comfortable with yeah I don't do that very much actually but my friend who was telling me this he was quite specific he just felt it was nice to be at home with his wife but maybe he and his wife when they had a Saturday at home they got in each other's way so he quite liked it when he found a Saturday oh she's out seeing friends today i can be on my own i can do my thing in my own house i mean that is quite nice sometimes that's quite nice so well that's very nice michelle you like my company yeah i do i prefer it when you're in the house very good well we have been together michelle and i now for 57 years which is quite a long time isn't it it certainly is i'm quite appalled no wonder you can't remember how it all began michelle absolutely as you know Giles does like to talk a lot and I couldn't possibly have remembered all the words he used what would you say I think I think I now I was trying to coming in today I was trying to think in one word what would sum up my view of what you have to offer the world and I was also trying to sum up in my head what Harriet has to offer the world and well no because you are now the two most I mean apologies to my daughters but you are now the two most significant women in my life And apologies to the cat, if you're listening.

3:47Oh, yes, because she's a girl cat. Yeah. Yeah. But I would say the one word that sums up Michelle is integrity. Wow, Michelle. That's very good. Is that something I eat? It's something you are. So that is something that you are. You have integrity. And that has informed, that's improved me because of your integrity. I think I have spent a lifetime trying to raise my game. It's also why our children are so special. Now, what am I going to use to describe you, Harriet? What's the word? Well, because I see you, I think the first word that came into my head is energy. I was hoping you were going to say zestful.

4:33Oh, I should have said that. Do you remember that word, Giles? I do. Well, zest is another word for energy, isn't it? But I was thinking on the bus this morning on my way in. I was thinking of all the things we forget to remind people about when we do these. You know, there's lots of things to say, aren't there? So much has happened. And I was thinking, oh, we let the whole zestful thing fizzle out. And we should have turned it into some sort of catchphrase by now. Oh, are you zesty? And we should have it on a T-shirt or something. Is your bestie zesty? Is your bestie zesty? Yeah, cue the music.

5:04Is your bestie zesty? And if they're not, drop them. Oh, dear. what michelle to continue this we've got zesty um zestfulness is harriet's principal quality i interpret it as energy because energy is life force to succeed in life you need energy what do you think in a word what am i well i was just thinking of a sort of overall quality which is determination. Because when Giles wants to get something sorted out, he gets it sorted out. And he's always thinking of something he's got to sort out. So I think that's the word I would choose. For me, that's what it is. What do you make of that, Harriet?

5:50I think that's one of your qualities, yeah. And it's a very good quality to have. In fact, you need to have it if you're going to succeed in life, don't you? Yes, if you're going to survive in life, I think you need it. Yeah. determination that's true yeah great uh i would say for you you haven't asked me but i'm about to say oh i was i mean yes i mean i thought you were agreeing with zestfulness you corrected my energy you can have zest no no about you i'm saying oh i see oh my god all right harriet what do you think i've got generosity oh yeah in all ways both material you know you're very generous of giving presents but in your life force is giving out all the time well after these charles is crying everyone obviously he's very generous with his tears as well funnily enough we should have to go away together and think of another word has anyone got a bucket because charles is very generous well but we are not above criticism because we've had an email this week actually a little bit critical.

6:56Can I read it to you now? Mild. I would say mild criticism. And actually, we shouldn't regard it as criticism. We should regard it as observation. Exactly. We love people leaving reviews, by the way, don't we? Yes. Because the reason we're thrilled that we've become a very successful podcast, it's entirely because of word of mouth. You know, we don't do advertising. You know, we only work because you tell friends and send them the link and they listen. And we love to hear from you. whatever you have to say and this is well not a complaint but it's an interesting topic so shall i share you chose this one do you want to do you want to read it or shall i read it no it's from a lady so why don't you read it okay it's got a great name by the way yes so this was was sent by email from one of our listeners in australia we've got lots of people in australia hello everybody in australia we used to have a lot of listeners in australia until a couple of weeks ago michelle i don't think we're here then when harriet gave us her um australian accent oh do you think everyone switched off well i don't know i haven't had any complaints about that actually no no comments cultural appropriation no but don't read this in australian no i'm not going to you should no i think hi giles no no this listener's british oh yeah and she used to teach at beadales my old school yeah so it's from a listener called claire gammon hello giles and harriet says claire I was saddened to hear Giles recently relaying a story about a listener attending a dinner party dressed as, quotes, the village tart.

8:29It had a very old-fashioned whiff of misogyny about it. I hate to think of your younger listeners, to whom I know you've been so welcoming, even thinking a village tart is an actual thing. Just be careful with your audience development. Best wishes, Claire. Oh, well, of course, yes, Michelle Chippin. I would like to say something, which is that I think that clearly he makes very, very good tarts, actually. Seriously, he's a good cook. And so from my point of view, he is actually a celebrated local tart. Well, the truth is, we didn't introduce this phrase village tart. No, it was in the email. In the email.

9:14And in fairness to the person who sent the email, what they were describing is a kind of stereotype. Yeah, because they were describing a murder mystery party. That's it. And you could come as a sailor. They were told to come. You could come as the vicar. Yeah, and they were told to come dressed as the village shark. And in a way, it's a catchphrase, we know what it means. Yeah. And I was thinking about, I was actually thinking about the game Cluedo. You know, all those characters, Professor Plum. and there's Miss Scarlet isn't there and I was thinking she always seemed quite maybe she wasn't the village tart she's more of a scarlet woman isn't she yeah but she was very it seemed very attractive to me when I was playing Cluedo as a child yeah she was dressed up nicely why I don't think we need to apologise for it I'm interested in the thought is of course what we do is we simply reflect the world we don't sit in judgement on the world and there was a time when a village tart would be a stereotype so what's your judgment on this well I think wherever possible we do try to use the for example when Giles is reading the diaries we try to use the language of the time as it was written with the understanding that people the listeners you guys listening understand the context and are learning something from the language that was used then because language does change and it says something about the time when it was written so I try not to edit or sanitize or kind of bring the language into the present day.

10:47I think the only time I can remember us doing that was when I was quoting a letter from Sir Gerald of Barrow who was a member of parliament in the 1960s and he used the n-word in full in writing to me and I think when we read it out we didn't. yeah so but on the whole we are really a podcast of record yeah yeah there's the odd word you would probably change because it's just so offensive now fuck me no oh um anyway so it's that but thank you claire for that comment and it made giles and i think about language and the way we use it on the podcast and you very sweetly said about generosity earlier and i hope we are a generous podcast in the sense that we are inclusive and I hope we are kind and I hope we wouldn't want to include anything that would unnecessarily distress people.

11:41No, that's true. Anyway, here we are and it's another episode and Michelle, we have reached June 1970 and you and I in the last episode of the Diaries, I think we had celebrated our two-year anniversary of going out together. Oh, going out, only going out. No thoughts yet of anything. Of staying in? No. I don't know. But anyway, we had been going out together. I'm, literally, I'm about to leave Oxford University. You left the year before me. So you are now out in the world earning your living. And I'm literally about to go out into the world and earn my living. I've had my own television show on ITV.

12:22I've appeared on the radio quite a bit. I've appeared in other TV shows. I'm writing quite a lot of articles. Journalism and TV seems to be the way I'm going. I'm still 21. Let's see what's about to happen. Tuesday, the 30th of June, 1970. Oh, yes, the last episode, I'd met the controller of BBC One. And he had introduced me, was going to introduce me to some other BBC high-ups. So I'd gone to see these people. Tuesday, 30th of June, 1970. I'm not sure what to make of these BBC types and I'm not sure what they're making of me they take themselves so seriously and when they talk about it their world, which should be exciting seems incredibly dull I had lunch with Chris Brasher at the Tratou to Abington Road just off Kensington High Street lunch is clearly an important part of these chaps' lives Mr.

13:20Brasher appeared to know everybody at every other table. It was a good lunch, especially the avocado and prawns, and a trendy setting, like eating in a garden hothouse. But our conversation was pretty desultory. I'd come to talk about features, but Mr. B clearly only lives for sport. He is an Olympic athlete. He paced Roger Bannister at Oxford in 1954 when Bannister ran the first four-minute mile. but he does not have the look of a greek god he is bespectacled and balding and spent most of our meal trying to interest me in the joys of a new kind of cross-country running invented in norway and known as orientation i liked him but i'm not sure that i belong in his world i know for certain that i do not belong in the world of lawrence wade he is the oh boy do we take ourselves seriously producer of tomorrow's world and today in room 4060 at television center he graciously gave me 15 minutes of his time as i sat down he took off his watch and explained to me that it was the latest thing a watch with a timing device our interview was timed for 15 minutes he said that the alarm would therefore go off after 13 minutes it did and when it did as it did he got up and moved me towards the door we shook hands knowing we would never meet again oh giles now what is interesting and i'll be interested to see if michelle remembers that i never saw him again he was not my type as you can see remember him being tall i remember this watch he was so proud of it and the interview was over but do you remember lawrence wade does that Does his name ring a bell?

15:10I do remember the name of Lawrence Wade. And I do remember when I first left Oxford that I started to work for the BBC. And he was very nice to work with. And did he use his timer watch with you, Michelle? Lawrence Wade, he's got this watch with a... Oh, I don't remember. Was he timing your conversations? I don't remember that. I never was good at maths. Maybe you should get one of those for you and Giles. and when, after Giles has been talking for 10 minutes, you could go beep, beep, beep. I could. It's my turn now, Giles. I think that would wrap it up perfectly, yes. We shook hands knowing we would never meet again.

15:51Harriet, I remember this guy and he looked to me, I'm now picturing in my head, like Clark Kent. Oh, I love Clark Kent. Yeah, but this man did not have, in my view, Superman potential. Yeah, but I like Clark Kent even without, yeah, love it, love him. Well, you might have gone on well with him. Yeah. Okay, Saturday the 11th of July, 1970. Parr's 60th birthday. A good day. The sun shone. In the afternoon, we went to a matinee of the National Theatre's Merchant of Venice, the Jonathan Miller production, in a Victorian setting with Joan Plowright, totally credible and compelling as Portia, and Laurence Olivier, looking like Disraeli, played by Henry Irving as Shylock.

16:34It fulfilled all my expectations, including his much-talked-about offstage cry of anguish. When Shylock has lost his daughter and his ducats, he wails. Olivier read about the way trappers in the Arctic set about catching baby seals. They throw salt onto the ice. The baby seals lick the salt, and as they do so, their tongues stick fast to the ice. They're caught. The trappers then come and claim them. For Shylock's wail of anguish, Olivier tried to recreate the cry made by the seal as its tongue is ripped from the ice. That's horrific. Gosh. We went down the road to the Parioli for the birthday meal.

17:24Ma, pa, children and spouses. Quite jolly, though Peter, the husband of one of my sisters, lay down on the banquette and went to sleep, or affected to. I booked the table and did a special menu. Stracciatella à la Charlie, poulet à la Princesse Alice, sorbet tooting, etc. We raised our glasses to dear old Pa. I think, hope, he had a happy time. Do you remember that lunch? Do you remember the Parioli restaurant? Yes, I do remember the Parioli restaurant. And I think I do remember that moment. And they were very sweet, your family, sitting there doing all that. And Jennifer's husband asleep. I know, I know.

18:10He was an interesting person, wasn't he? He had his own way of getting through life. That's so diplomatically put. That's so diplomatic. Yeah, he had issues. And also, actually, you know, maybe we were quite a strong taste as a family. So we were all there. The sisters, me, my brother, Michelle, spouses were all there. And I think maybe he just wanted to opt out. Fair enough. And, you know, he was probably in his late 20s, early 30s. He thought, oh, God almighty, what's all this? So he just laid down on the bonkhead and slept. Yeah. Or as I say, affected to, closed his eyes. Yeah. Tuesday, 21st July, 1970.

18:52Ian McLeod has died. He was 56. He had a heart attack at 11 Downing Street last night. This is devastating news at all sorts of levels. He incurred a spinal injury during the war and it led to arthritis. When we were doing the programme just before Christmas, he told us he needed a swivel chair because he couldn't turn his head and shoulders. He was quite tetchy. When Elizabeth Longford asked, Are you in pain? He snapped, I'm always in pain. That evening, he only came to life when talking about his time as Secretary of State for the colonies. That was the work he was most proud of, my one achievement.

19:31When the recording was finished, he disappeared without saying goodbye. He wrote later to apologise for his rudeness, explaining that he'd been in considerable pain. And what's interesting about Ian MacLeod, I say this to both of you, is that for certain kinds of conservative of an older generation, he was the intellectual beacon. So I think John Major, when we interviewed him, he talked about anybody who'd been an influence on him. He would have said Ian MacLeod. I can see you're still really sad to read that, that he died. Well, also, he was the first significant person of real power, became Chancellor of the Exchequer, who actually I met more than once and talked to.

20:16And so I felt I had access, you know, in the early 20s, meeting somebody who's in the cabinet is extraordinary. So do you think this is somebody that could have gone on to be Prime Minister if he hadn't died? Not necessarily. I don't think he had possibly the common touch in that way. But intellectually, he was the beacon. Great.

20:42Wednesday, 22nd July 1970. A colleague's account of Ian MacLeod at cabinet meetings. When he had a point to make, he made it with brevity, relevance and force. If he had nothing new to contribute, he did not speak unless invited to do so. That's the way to do it. And I hope too that one day I will have the wherewithal to do my Christmas shopping the MacLeod way. He told me that he had followed the same routine all his adult life, certainly since the end of the war on the last weekday before christmas he would get his chauffeur to drop him at one end of the burlington arcade in piccadilly he would then proceed through the arcade walking down the left hand side choosing his presence half an hour later loaded with gifts he would emerge at the other end of the arcade where his chauffeur would by now be waiting Did he ever look into the shops on the right-hand side of the arcade?

21:42Never. I'm a creature of habit. I realise now that he could look comfortably to the left, but not to the right. The evening standard says Anthony Barber will be the new Chancellor. I'm currently getting the first edition of the standard on a daily basis. Michelle and I are going to get a flat. I'd be inclined to get something around here. Baker Street, Maryland, St John's Wood, but Michelle says we can't afford it. Her plan is that we rent somewhere for£10 per week and save so that then we can buy somewhere. Ma and Pa have always rented. Michelle's parents have always bought. Anyway, I'm looking for flats every day, but by the time I telephone, they've always already gone.

22:33well yes i do remember that very clearly and i've always been one of those rather sort of irritating people who says wait till you've got the money for it before you decide to go and buy it we it was interesting because i just assumed we'd always my parents lived around baker street we'd get a flat around baker street and michelle was adamant uh no it's ridiculous we will rent a flat somewhere that we can afford save money and then we can buy a flat in Baker Street I mean what great advice Michelle I mean how brilliant that you met Michelle Giles because if you hadn't you'd still be frittering away some rent on a flat in Baker Street that is completely true because my parents had always done it because they never had enough money to actually put down a deposit but maybe they could have done actually they probably could have done if they but it was a different world I think many more people did rent flats yeah and there are other cultures in Europe where people do rent absolutely and we would go out at 10 in the morning that the first edition of the evening center would appear at 10 in the morning you would go out and there'd be pages page I mean 30 pages of flats for rent yeah and you'd go down you'd see what your price was what area and then you'd find that well we'll see what flat we found Monday 27th July 1970 I might have gone to the Roundhouse in North London tonight to see Kenneth Tynan's erotic review Oh Calcutta.

23:53As it happens, I'm quite happy not to be going. It has had mixed notices, to put it mildly. I love Robert Helpman's line, the trouble with naked dancing is that not everything stops when the music stops. Instead, I've come to Canterbury Cathedral. I'm making a film for Southern TV marking the 900th anniversary of the murder of Thomas Becket. And this afternoon, in the crypt of the cathedral, on the very spot where Becket was martyred, I interviewed his successor, Michael Ramsey, 100th Archbishop of Canterbury. We got on really well. He's a delightful man, all eyebrows and twinkle, and all the right ideas on homosexuality, on developing relations with other churches, on the war in Vietnam, etc.

24:42I was told he was going to be very awkward and inarticulate. in the event he was inspiring we need saints he said we need men who are true to their beliefs who do not swerve or waver in a complicated world we need the simplicity of unwavering faith complete honesty and goodness without compromise Beckett gives us that could I just remark somewhere there of course which is that there was no mention of women in that at all and is it only that men who are going to be going round and making things better i was rather surprised that it was so well you make a very good point and i don't think our daughters we have michelle and i have two daughters have any idea how the world has changed in 50 years there was a complete assumption that the world was run by men if you looked at any boardroom they were entirely men If you looked at the government, they were entirely men, I think.

25:45There were one or two women in the cabinet after the war, but very, very few. And the Church of England, of course, was entirely dominated. There were no women priests, certainly no bishops. We now have a female Archbishop of Canterbury. And this is, you know, 55 years it's taken for that to happen. Tuesday, 1st September 1970. The Feast of St Giles. And I've moved to my new address. 11 The Close, Muswell Avenue, London N10 It's a 1930s block and looks as if it might be more at home on the front at Sandwich than tucked away in a back street in North London But, except for the fact that it's a hike to Highgate tube station, I really like it I've signed a two-year lease at a rent of£461 per annum inclusive of rates and water rates I've also paid the outgoing tenant£250 for fixtures and fittings curtains, carpets, three-piece suite, gas fridge, gas cooker, wardrobe, chest of drawers etc The removal men struggled to get the upright piano up the two flights of stone stairs but otherwise all went well No breakages And we've already discovered some of the local delights a nice kebab restaurant and a useful laundrette also barney my school friend has offered to come and help paint both the sitting room and the second bedroom which is going to be my study the parents don't know where they are moving yet my parents had to leave their flat because my mother had been running a montessori nursery school at the flat and it broke the terms of their lease do you remember all that i do very much i do and um also i was leaving home and my sisters had left home and you know in fact my parents had no expectation that there would be a home for me exactly you were lucky i was there and what did your parents think about you two moving in together because you weren't married at this point were you we weren't what i don't know married by that not for quite a while in fact after that there's nothing wrong with that my parents didn't seem to i bet they certainly didn't make a big hoo-ha.

27:57No, nobody made a big hoo-ha about it. I mean, we knew it was slightly, you know, in quotes, living in sin, but I don't think it was a big issue. It was 1970 by now. By now it's 70. We're getting pretty old ourselves by then. Yeah, exactly. Well, I'm 22. You're 23. Oh my goodness me. Goodness, we're virtually middle age. Yes. Monday the 21st of September, 1970. When I was president of the Oxford Union, Hugh Anderson was president of the Cambridge Union. We were friends. We were the same age. He was a really nice person, and now he is dead. It was some form of cancer. I've just come back from his memorial service at All Souls Langham Place.

28:39The church was packed. Harold Wilson was there. Trevor Huddleston gave the address. Canon Perfect led the prayers. Canon Perfect is Pa's age, perhaps a little older. Pa and Canon and Perfect were at school together. Pa loathed him at school because Perfect was exactly that, Perfect. At least he was Perfect as far as the masters were concerned. He bullied the other boys. All my life I've been hearing about this ghastly prig of a schoolboy and I turn up at my friend's memorial service and there he is leading the prayers. I hadn't realised that Hugh went to St. Lawrence College, Ramsgate too. It was a moving and an amazing occasion.

29:25At 21, Hughes' impact was enormous. He was destined to go a long way. He was a Christian socialist, and during the service, we were invited to view his premature death from the Christian perspective, by which alone it can make sense. I fear the truth is, it doesn't make any sense at all. It was interesting to see Harold Wilson at close quarters, small and hunched. Mary Wilson has a collection of her poetry being published today. Mr Wilson had just come from her first signing session. Sunday, 3rd October 1970. I'm in Wells at the Red Lion Hotel making my film about the life of Wells Cathedral for BBC2.

30:08Letter arrived from power this morning. Ma's dizzy spells are still unexplained but he reports a highly satisfactory two-hour consultation with a GP in Harley Street how much did that cost? nerves are ruled out also low blood pressure no heart trouble most likely cause is the ears so the next step is an aurist followed by a neurologist and on the weight problem the enemy is fluids mar is to cut it down to no more than four cups a day they leave 5h portman mansions on the 14th of october a sad occasion we've been happy here par is hoping to sell bits and pieces of surplus furniture to the new tenants he says even 10 pounds will be acceptable they're going to take a room at the west london hotel in bayswater on a week-by-week basis until they can find somewhere affordable to move next it's not good bar says we miss you very much and hope that on your return we may see more of you so why had they moved out giles they moved out well they moved out because they had to move out because they broke the terms of the lease that's why they moved out but my father had these money problems and you know he was ready i mean even 10 pounds was going to make a difference to him.

31:35Yeah. That was a very long time ago. It was a long time ago. They moved into this sort of almost rooming house hotel. Yeah. And I remember the room. They shared it with my brother Ben and my parents, my father in 60, my mother, you know, in her 50s. They shared a bed and they lived the three of them for quite a while in this hotel until they could find a flat that they could afford. And my father at the time is 60 years of age. He is a very successful London solicitor. Yeah. And, well, money worries. But presumably they wouldn't, they didn't want to live outside the area that they were used to, you know, W1 or whatever.

32:19Yes, it never occurred to them to move out of London. Yeah. No, because my father needed to get into work, so it had to be within half an hour. And also, I think my mother required my father to come back at lunchtime. yeah so he went to the office which was in leicester square and then he'd come back on the underground which you could do leicester square to baker street quite quickly for lunch and then go back to the office again yeah and also she expected him to be back early evening and was she a good cook oh she wasn't cooking he came back to prepare supper oh gosh she did cook at the occasion she did of course she did cook but as you can see she's not clearly not very well they're going to the doctors about her i mean what is going on here The truth is, I now see, in retrospect, that I think she was depressed.

33:03Yeah. Anyway. Monday, the 9th of November, 1970. General de Gaulle died today. It is the end of an era. He was a giant. And yes, he almost shook my hand. Went to 2 Mansfield Street to the launch of Sir Robert Mayer's book, My Life and Music. Sir Robert spent a lot of time holding Michel's hand. He didn't quite chase around the room, he's 91, but he was certainly very attentive. And he knew what he was up to. He kept a sharp eye open for Lady Mare, who stalked nearby. In his speech, he reminded us that in 1923, when he founded his children's concerts, he insisted that the children pay for their tickets, even if it was only a penny.

33:52Never give people something for nothing, they won't value it. As we left, he kissed Michelle with considerable gallantry and shook me firmly by the hand. He's a remarkable old boy. You are now shaking the hand that shook the hand of Johannes Brahms, he said. I thought you'd like that. Saturday, 28 November, 1970. I'm writing this in my bedroom at the Montrose Hotel Dublin I'm here because tonight I was a guest on the Late Late Show hosted by Gay Byrne Mr Byrne is the most famous man in Ireland by a margin here he is more famous than the Pope truly he's also very charming and leprechaun like and appears quite unspotted by his incredible success everybody in Ireland watches his programme which goes on for several hours and rambles across a wide variety of topics, none of which seemed particularly exciting to me.

34:52My excitement of the evening was meeting Sinead Cusack, actress-daughter of the great Cyril Cusack. We became immediate friends. We are exactly the same age, born two weeks apart. We exchanged phone numbers at once and talked simultaneously, nose-to-nose, non-stop. Our hands kept touching. She's not conventionally beautiful, but she's incredibly attractive and funny and intelligent. And she liked me. For an hour or so at the party after the show, we had a really lovely time together. And then I introduced her to George Best. Why did I do it? She told me she wasn't interested in football. I believed her.

35:38George is fine, of course, but he's not that articulate and he's not that funny and he's not that good looking. He's rather awkward and scruffy, in fact. But he is George Best. Anyway, she went off with him. And here I am, alone in room 23 at the Montrose Hotel. Good night. Anyway, on we go. I'm looking at Michelle. She just shrugged her shoulders. Of course she did. Yeah. Have you heard of George Best? Yeah, of course I've heard of George Best. He was then probably the most famous footballer in the world. Obviously it trumps Charles Brandreth. Well clearly he did trump Charles Brandreth. Yeah.

36:16He trumps Charles Brandreth. Clearly he did. He's an athlete. Well he wasn't well of course he was the most famous footballer in the world. And he was there because he must have been a guest on the Late Late Show as well. Yeah. So anyway the one that got away I do still see we still see Sinead Cusack now and again she's now married to Jeremy Irons. Saturday the 12th of December 1970. This morning I woke up and looked out of my bedroom window onto a wonderful sun-filled view of the Bay of Haifa. I am in Israel. Yesterday with Michelle and Mark Hoffman, who had been at university with us, I took the 10am LL flight from London via Rome to Lod.

37:03The LL security is impressive. At Lod, we were met by May Hoffman and her beau, Arthur Dow, and driven to Haifa and the handsome Hoffman House on the hillside. Mark and May's parents are lovely people and leading figures in the world of the Baha 'i faith. Mrs. Hoffman, tall and wiry, a former US Olympic swimmer, seems to be the intellectual one and the driving force. But it is Mr. Hoffman, naturally, being the man who is the revered member of the Baha 'i International House of Justice, the council of nine wise men who run the religion. They claim 10 million adherents in 200 countries around the world.

37:48Mr. Hoffman is very sweet and has been most welcoming. I say that. In fact, as he arrived, he retreated to his room to do his exercises. Mrs Hoffman explained that he likes his snoozes.

38:28and didn't over proselytize. I scored by having been to Wilmette and seen the Baha 'i temple there. I've observed that just one nugget of insider knowledge can get you a long way in life. Today we are going to the shrine to the Barb. He is the Baha 'i's equivalent of John the Baptist. And then on to Elijah's tomb on Mount Carmel. Tomorrow we're taking the early train to Jerusalem and then going on to Bethlehem. We're covering the faith waterfront. Michelle is in a separate room because Baha 'is do not approve of sex outside marriage. Homosexuality is taboo. Gambling is out. Gossip is forbidden.

39:12The faith's principal thrust is a belief in peace, internationalism and world government. The unity of God and the unity of mankind. They have been severely persecuted, especially in Persia, where Baha 'u'llah was born.

39:33Thursday, 17th December, 1970. This has been one of the happiest days of my life. We began the day in Jaffa. In brilliant sunshine, through a wonderful warm breeze, we drove to Mount Tabor, the Mount of the Transfiguration. Mark is a fearless driver. If he sees a track marked no entry, not cleared for mines, he charges straight down it. He roared up Mount Tabor. We took the 18 hairpin bends at such a lick I had no time to scream. And the drive was preferable to the alternative, 4 ,000 rocky steps carved into the hillside. At the summit, we were shown round the fine Romanesque basilica by an American monk, and then given the most perfect four-course lunch in the Franciscan hospice.

40:25The pasta dish, spaghetti with tomato sauce and herbs, that's all it was, was perhaps the most delicious thing I have ever eaten. And the table wine wasn't bad. As we ate, Father Augustine, head of a community of five monks and three nuns, played the organ for us and sang. He told us it was the feast of St. Lazarus. It was the setting and the food and the weather, but chiefly, I think, the personality of Father Augustine that made the day so special. He was a good man, and we felt better for our brief time in his company. We drove on to Galilee and walked by the Sea of Galilee at the Ein Gev Kibbutz.

41:11It was quite perfect and tonight we played cards my first proper game of bridge who could ask for anything more oh how lovely giles now michelle we have got somewhere in our photo albums in the old days you know one kept photo albums and so we've got a lot of photo albums of this era we've got a picture of you and me with father augustine oh i can see it quite clearly actually he was rather a little bit of a pudgy man is that correct yes and he was lovely um isn't that nice to remember this lovely man if i can find the picture i will share it with you harriet and maybe we'll put it on the website who knows i love the sound of the tasty spaghetti i love pasta my other best meal which will come true in the diary in several years time because it was in the 1990s i think was in a restaurant overlooking Verona.

42:09And again, it was a very simple pasta. Just, you know, flat pasta, not spaghetti. What's flat pasta called? Tagliatelle. Tagliatelle. Tagliatelle with a sort of cheese sauce. Yum. Just fantastic. Al dente, obviously. Slightly al dente. Not too al dente. Oh, you don't like it too al dente? No. I had an agent one call. I had an agent one call. I had an agent... No, you didn't, Giles. Don't try that one. You didn't. I didn't have an agent called Al Denti. I did have one called Al Fresco. He was the person who got me work in the Regents Park Open Air Theatre. Get it? Yes. Okay, moving on. I could see that one coming a mile off, couldn't you, Michelle?

42:51Yeah, I could certainly do. Do you recognise the jokes when I tell them? Do you know a joke that's coming on? Quite often I do when it's going to come along, yes.

43:03Michelle, once I was making a speech when I was an MP. and you know how sometimes they have place cards with your name on remember how you always put at the end of the table for some reason oh because that was boring no not because you were boring of course i am boring but the boring thing for you was you had no one to talk to on one side of you absolutely oh that's not fair yes i hate that whenever i have anybody to to dinner i always make sure there's a circle everyone's got someone to talk to otherwise you feel sort of embarrassed the old days they used to be sort of top tables and you set the top table because i was usually the speaker, I'd be in the middle.

43:35And they'd go out, you know, man, woman, man, woman, man, woman. And Michelle would often be on the end. And I do remember, I was making, actually in the middle of a speech, and you were sitting at the far end, and I saw you were scribbling a note. I thought, what's going on? Anyway, this note was passed down the table. And as I was speaking, I read this note from Michelle, written on the back of her place card. It simply said, I first heard you tell this joke 30 years ago. Time for a change? Question mark. Friday, 18th December, 1970. It has been a memorable seven days. The train to Jerusalem, packed with soldiers.

44:10Old Jerusalem itself, the dusty streets of Bethlehem, crowded with donkeys laden with petrol cans. The Church of the Nativity, the old prison at Acre, Armageddon, the Negev Desert, Galilee. If I had to pick a second highlight, yesterday on Mount Tabor will remain unmatched, I might choose the Persian lunch we had today. David and Marian Hoffman drove us to the shrine of Baha 'u'llah outside Acre. We toured the Immaculately Kept Gardens and the house and the shrine. In the shrine, boldly, but when the Hoffmans could not see me, I looked at the image of the prophet. It is not forbidden to do so, but nor is it encouraged.

44:57Baha 'u'llah means glory of God, and everything about him is to be treated with reverence and discretion. He is God's ultimate messenger, after all. There are only two photographs of him in existence, and they are not generally displayed, but one of them was here, and I looked upon it. I mean no disrespect, but with his straggly beard and piercing eyes, he looks very like Rasputin. After the tour of the shrine, we had a delicious Persian lunch with the caretakers of the house of Abu, where Baha 'u'llah lived for two years. We were treated with such respect. Travelling with Mr. Hoffman is like travelling with the Pope.

45:38Our hosts wouldn't touch their food until we had eaten, and had second helpings. and when Michelle, to be polite, admired our hostess's necklace, it was immediately removed and presented to her. I believe this was the late Queen Mary's philosophy too. After lunch, we played backgammon. Tomorrow, Cesar Rhea, then Tel Aviv, Beersheba and Elat. I've written a piece for the spectator, Christmas in Bethlehem, and have an excellent souvenir brought to the Good Shepherd General's store. A small linen sachet filled, so it says on the label, with the earth Christ trod inspected for authenticity by Catholic personnel.

46:24Thursday the 31st of December 1970. Time for my end of year review. It is six months since I left Oxford. What has been achieved? Prisons. Some worthwhile visits. H.M. Prison Bristol. H.M. Prison Grinden. loudum grange borstal h m prison liverpool h m prison holloway no easy answers indeed whatever the conditions of the prison the level of recidivism remains much the same horrific conditions aren't a deterrent most prisoners are present dwellers when they commit an offense they're not thinking about the possible outcome good conditions are more civilized but don't of themselves improve the inmates' chances.

47:08Only education and training for work and life can do that. Some of this I can cover in my book, when I start it. Television. The Beckett film was fine. The Wells Cathedral film was dull. Brandreth in Orbit, the optimistic producer's preferred title for our series will not materialise. I've had meetings galore. Robin Scott, nay, Scutt, controller BBC Two. Edward Barnes and Monica Sims, children's department. Boy, do we take ourselves seriously. Chris Brasher, more lunches. All talk leading to more talk. My best idea for the features department, I called it That's Life, a kind of popular newspaper on TV, seems to have gone away.

47:59They paid me£50 for it. I don't really mind. I'm not that interested. What? Yeah. That's Life, hosted by Esther Ranson, was eventually launched on BBC One in 1973 and ran until 1994. What? I still have the outline that I presented to the features department for the show called That's Life, a kind of popular newspaper on TV in my box of memoirs. I was paid£50 for it. Are you serious? Of course I'm serious. So that was actually your idea? In 1970, I gave it to the BBC. Of course, they developed it wonderfully. Blimey, Giles. Yeah, we didn't mention it to Esther when we interviewed her, did we? No.

48:45I'd forgotten about it, frankly, until this moment. That's amazing. Anyway, bright idea. But ideas are cheap. Follow-through is what you need. No, no, but that's something. It is something. That's a huge show. It is. Is there any other big shows you've come up with? Well, Celebrity Naked Attraction. That hasn't got off the ground. OK, on we go. I love that, Giles. Radio. I like Tony Whitby, controller Radio 4. I think that meeting will lead somewhere. I like Con Mahoney, head of light entertainment radio. He's straightforward, a bluff naval man with a shiny face to match the highly polished brass buttons on his blazer.

49:27I don't think the war has stopped for him yet. I like his no-nonsense approach, and I like the people I pump into in his office. For example, Ted Ray and Arthur Askey. They are funny offstage as well as on. The performance never stops. I like the producer he's given me, Peter Titheridge, full of old-world courtesy and the son of the great Madge Titheridge. She was a great beauty, a famous Peter Pan, and a childhood friend of Noel Coward. Writing. £15 for the Spectator Bethlehem piece, £26, five shillings for the Punch piece, Vogue,£25, Guardian,£18 for Prison Art, £20 for the Canterbury Festival.

50:13It adds up. Add lunch with Lynn Barber from Penthouse. A disappointing experience, given the nature of the magazine. She was completely unsexy and made sex seem completely unsexy. But she has£20 to offer me for an article, so I'm going to give it a go. And Irene, Josephie, my agent, has some pieces lined up for me in the Observer magazine. And I'm meeting Brian Redhead to talk about a possible weekly column for the Manchester Evening News. All OK, but nothing startling. Archway Productions. Our brochure looks good. we have the possibility of a production fingers crossed this is with three people we met at oxford um i'd formed a company to present sonne lumiere productions you know sound and light shows telling the story of historic buildings and michelle was going to be the historian for these anyway more of that later i think next year colin smythe limited i'm grateful for the 78 pounds seven shillings and fourpence per month and they're an interesting double act though there's something odd uncomfortable about their world this was a small publishing house based in gerrards cross and i was working for them part-time the firm sort of specialized i remember in anglo-irish letters it had been founded by colin smythe who later became well known because he became terry pratchett's literary agent with a man called peter bander they founded it who was a teacher and author and authority on orders i think relating to the the catholic church and sir robert mayer was the company's chairman so this is a kind of part-time job that i had colin is in love with all things celtic i think he really does believe in fairies they are both obsessed with the paranormal and peter well he's a rum one for sure and there's a glint in his eye and a wobble to his lip that aren't altogether reassuring When he and I had dinner at Tratou, he brought the subject back to corporal punishment again and again.

52:22Nominally, it was a straightforward conversation about education and discipline, but as he described the swish of the cane on the boy's bare buttocks, little dribbles of saliva appeared at either edge of his mouth, and he shifted his knee towards mine. each to his own i say but physical violence whatever the motive is of no interest to me none whatsoever anyway that's 1970 done and dusted it's been fine the flat is a success even barney's purple sitting room wall is a success we like muswell hill i thought i'd never live anywhere but baker street and we love the side saddle we eat there night after night and Michelle is lovely and Israel was memorable.

53:12Everything is good and yet I need to do more and better, much better. Will that always be my cry? Is that a rhetorical question? Well, it's the end of what I write in my diary at the end of 1970. Well, I'm going to answer it. Yes. We must do more and better, much better. That will always be your cry, Giles. Yes. You're still saying that now, aren't you? Don't you feel, Harriet, when you left university six months later, you wanted to do more and better, try harder, get further? She probably has done that. I think it is a very difficult time in your life for most people. Possibly the most difficult time leaving university or starting life.

54:05Starting life. and being responsible for yourself I think I think there's the odd person maybe that lands on their feet and gets a great job and off they go but I think for most people it's a period of confusion self-doubt fear and and not knowing what your life's going to be and I think some people really struggle I mean I remember after I finished my finals I sort of had a mini breakdown it only lasted a couple of days I sat in bed crying and reading the Lord of the Rings which for some reason was felt very nostalgic something about the Shire reminds me of Devon where I grew up and and I think I was it was a mixture of anti-climax of relief of and that feeling kind of carried on for a while yeah and then suddenly you think I should be doing things I should be succeeding I should be earning money I should be I should be but you're not because you're young and you don't know what you're doing and there's a lot of pressure so i i feel for anyone who is at that age yeah of course i had landed on my feet in many ways no i mean you obviously but that's almost makes it you know because the expectations are so high and that makes it hard there's a different kind of pressure there also i've just realized something i've never realized before until this very moment michelle it's because you're sitting here i've never lived alone I lived with my parents until I left university and I've lived with you ever since if you're listening we do have younger listeners if you've just left university or remember leaving university and want to share your recollections of that experience how the uncertainties of deciding which way am I going to go now I'm starting out in the world where do I go how do I start do share them with us because we love to hear from people remind me what's the email address and don't worry if that's how you're feeling that's what i would say is i think that is absolutely natural and normal and it's part of growing up isn't it that feeling of i'm not so sure i agree don't worry share your worries with us no no share but don't you know don't beat yourself up about it yeah that's okay good where do they write to hello at rosebud podcast.com hello at rosebudpodcast.com that's it for this week's diaries and next week we move into another year 1971 as the years go by, time flies doesn't it?

56:29It does more adventures, more excitement and thank you for being part of more Rosebud this week. Oh yeah, thanks Michelle Oh god I didn't really feel I added anything but I enjoyed it. I think you did You added your presence You've been here Did you say presents? Actually, do you remember any of the presents I gave you? In 1971? Can you remember anything I've ever given you? Yes, I can remember a lot of things, but 1971, sometime in... What's the best present Giles has given you, Michelle? I'm not, I mean, anything. I'm always flattered and happy if somebody gives me a present. But I'm not a great, you know, somebody who's looking for people to, you know, give me things.

57:17and I think the very fact we were managing to shuffle along all right, I think that was what was nice for me. That is the truth. We've shuffled about all right. Yeah, exactly. And we're still walking and we've got a lovely cat. Yes. We didn't have a cat at 11 the Close, did we? No, we couldn't have done. We didn't have a cat. Where was our first cat? Our next flat. Yes. So it may not be 1971, maybe 1972. There's cats to look forward to, listeners. Thanks for being with us. Cue the music. it. Oh, yes. Oh, Michelle, you can say it this week. All right, please, now cue the music.

58:39That was more Rosebud with me, Giles Brandreth, and my friend and producer, Harriet Jane. The show is produced by Harriet Jane for Plain Jane Productions. And, oh, this week we had a treat. Michelle Brandreth dropped in. She calls herself Michelle Brandreth on good days. On other days she calls herself Michelle Brown. That's her maiden name. Whether she reverts to that or sticks with Michelle Brandreth, we don't know. The Relate meetings are ongoing. We'll keep you posted.