Gyles's diary, episode 29

0:00This is Giles Brandreth and Harriet Jane. We're together with you again for another episode of More Rosebud. Cue the music. We're here. We're ready. And we're quite keen.

0:29Welcome to another episode of Rosebud. It's a Tuesday, so we call it More Rosebud because there's more than me here. there's Harriet Jane, my producer and friend. How are you, Harriet? I'm very well, thanks. Have you ever been into science fiction? I have to say it's not, no, not really. But I did watch Doctor Who when I was a child and I loved that. Who was your Doctor Who for your generation? It was Tom Baker. Tom Baker? Yeah, with the big long scarf and the curly hair. I am old enough to go right back to William Hartnell. And then was it Patrick Troughton after that? Yes, yeah. And then maybe it was Tom Baker from then.

1:10He was there for a long time, wasn't he, Tom Baker? He was. And then I really liked, and I had a bit of a crush on Peter Davison. Oh, people did. He was brilliant. And who was the smaller person? Sylvester McCoy. That's who I mean. And Colin Baker. Colin Baker was the larger person who also made the audiobooks. Sorry, Colin. You know what I mean? One was smaller. I mean, I'm sorry. I'm very lucky to have known Colin Baker because they do audio versions of Doctor Who. And I have been in a couple of audio versions of Doctor Who. And it's almost my claim to fame. What, playing an alien or playing yourself?

1:46Playing a villain, playing an alien, playing an odd character of one kind or another. Really? And I remember going to a book signing. The season one of these was launched. And I was there thinking signing my books. And I turned up at whatever shop it was. and it was a long queue, longer than my usual queue. I thought, this is marvellous. And it turned out these were Doctor Who fans. And because I even had a minor role in Doctor Who, they wanted their Doctor Who CDs signed by me. You're part of the fandom. Part of the fandom. It is, absolutely. And as you'll discover, because today's a diary day, not necessarily this year, but in a year or two, Tom Baker, with the long scarf and the curly hair, actually is going to turn up as an actor in my story before he becomes Doctor Who.

2:31So I knew Tom Baker before anyone knew Tom Baker. Well, it's not quite true. He was already quite successful, actually. He played Rasputin in a film. Oh, so you didn't discover him. I far from discovered him. Right. But I cast him in the part of Oscar Wilde in a play called The Trials of Oscar Wilde. And people were a bit disconcerted by his appearance. One of the reviewers said, what are we doing with Harpo Marx playing Oscar Wilde? because he had this sort of wild hair. But he was delightful, eccentric. I remember he turned up, we were rehearsing and playing in Oxford, with nothing about him, no case, except a toothbrush.

3:13Because I said to him, do you know you're staying here? We're actually rehearsing him. For a month? For a couple of months. He said, no, I'm ready. I said, really? And he just produced from his top left-hand pocket a toothbrush. That's very Doctor Who, if I may say so. Very Doctor Who. He was perfectly cast. He was quite an eccentric human being. But that's how I know him. And that's why I thought, oh, it's interesting. He is the Doctor Who who still resonates. Yeah. People know who he is. And also he's got a wonderful voice and manner. And I know he's a bit older now. And I thought we would love to have him on Rosebud.

3:47Absolutely. And as people sometimes think we have a whole team of people finding our guests, we don't. It's you and me. It's mainly you, John. Well, let's face it. If it's people I know, like Tom Baker, I send them an email. So I found this address, I think somewhere in my address book or in my computer. It said tom at tombaker.co.uk, similar sort of address. So I emailed and thinking, well, it went. And I reminded him that I'd first met him in the 1970s. I told the toothbrush story. I've sort of said I've been a fan ever since. We've once or twice bumped into one another. How's about doing rosebud?

4:22I told him all the people had done it. And this is the reply I received. from Tom Baker. Sorry to disappoint you. While some people consider me a notable tailor to the stars, Doctor Who, I most certainly ain't. I simply share his name. So I'd written to somebody who is called Tom Baker at this address, and this is the person who replied. I simply share his name, which was quite funny, when at school in Scotland in 1974, I was congratulated on my newfound famous Doctor Who. by my primary school teacher. I was seven years old. This produced a mixed response from me as I hadn't a clue what she was talking about.

5:04It was then that I realised that we were the only family in the small Scottish border town of Selkirk without a TV. Years of friendly abuse ensued in the school corridors along the lines of, where's your fucking TARDIS? How's K-9? And in winter, that scarf's a bit boring. I loved the attention as it was all in good spirits. I subsequently had to make the embarrassing announcement that we didn't have a television at home, which was a regional scandal. More jibes ensued like, what the fuck do you do at night? And my personal favourite, what did you watch on the radio last night? I have subsequently met the great man himself, the other Tom Baker.

5:48He laughed endlessly when I showed him my business card and told him how he had unknowingly persecuted me all his life and still does we are distant friends though i haven't seen him for years i sometimes receive doctor who fan letters one arrived in the post last week with a poem dedicated to me though not the actual me to him it's hilarious 55 years of non-stop confusion we are strangely and mysteriously very similar to we'll find a photo and send anyway you have mocked on the wrong door. I couldn't resist that. Best wishes for now, Tom, brackets, Sir Tom Baker. So he's given himself a knighthood into the bargain, which I don't think the actual Tom Baker has.

6:32No. But you made further inquiries and find out about this Tom Baker, didn't you? Yes, so this Tom Baker has a shop in the centre of London, a very nice address, and a website, and he makes these amazing bespoke tailored suits and jackets, and I mean, he's a proper tailor. Do you think he would make a rosebud suit for me to wear? I mean, I think we'd need to pay for it because they're not there. But I'm sure he would. I'm ready to pay for it. I've been saying for years I would love to have a properly made suit. It's a kind of Savile Road type tailor. Yeah, I know, exactly. He's in that part of town, isn't he?

7:09Yeah, yeah. So, and would a suit suit you, Harriet? Yeah, I mean, I think, I don't ever wear suits. But you wear trousers sometimes. Yeah. Have you got a trouser suit? No, but I have worn a trouser suit before. I think they can look great. They can look great. Yeah. Why don't we get, because listeners, there's the prospect of us appearing together on stage, either later this year or sometime next year. We will keep you posted. Be quite good for the finale to appear in our matching suits. Oh, what, pink? Do you think they'd be pink? Well, we would be guided by Tom Baker. Oh, yeah. But a well-cut suit is fantastic.

7:46Yeah, you can't beat it, can you? You can't beat it. I told you my Frank Sinatra story. Probably, but tell it again. You sure? Sam. Being in the wings of the Royal Albert Hall, almost his last appearance in London, I'd been sent by the Sunday Telegraph, hopefully to interview him, but he wouldn't be interviewed, but I could write about it as long as I didn't go within 10 metres of him. So I stood in the wings with a kind of minder, and there was Frank Sinatra waiting to go on in the Royal Albert Hall, 5 ,000 people out there. He's got the microphone in hand. He looks fabulous. except he isn't wearing any trousers.

8:20He's got a shirt on, a bow tie on, looking brilliant. The orchestra is already playing the opening music and he looks as if he's going to walk onto the stage. Gosh. And I think, what am I going to do? And I'm not supposed to approach him. I thought this was very good for my story. And then eventually, as the music gets heightened, he steps towards the edge of the stage. And I think, and he's wearing, I think one of the Americans call suspenders. Oh, I know. The things that keep up his socks. Your socks, yeah. So he's got shoes and socks on, these suspenders. and then a kind of boxer shorts, long underpants and a white shirt.

8:54I think this is too awful. I know he's quite old now, but I mean, this would be too terrible, this great iconic figure. So I begin to creep forward. I think no one's stopping me. I've got to prevent him from going onto the stage like this. And as I almost reach him, from behind me, a minder appears, puts his hand on my shoulder. And from behind Frank Sinatra, his dresser appears. and pulls on a pair of trousers, does them up, slips a jacket on, and then Frank Sinatra turns towards me and says, I wear a brand new suit for every performance. The guys out there bought it for me. They deserve the best.

9:34Oh, wow. And he walked on. Isn't that amazing? Wow, that is amazing. And why do you think he put it on so late? So there is not the least crease. I think it would become a... I asked people around then. He said it was a kind of ritual for him. So he'd wait the last minute and then just slipped into it, slipped on the jacket and then immediately went on. So, and he looked, of course, well, of course, he looked a million dollars because he was probably worth a hundred million dollars. Wow. But if we could have a pair of suits like that. That's amazing. For you and I. That's a kind of, you know, a ritual, isn't it?

10:08That performers might have. Do you have any of those yourself? Yes, I do. Oh. I think actually I shared it with one of our guests the other day. So with one of our guests who hasn't appeared yet. Oh, right. So I won't share that because that's something to look forward to. But you don't, you wear your jumper on the way there. You don't put it on in the wings or? Oh, I have to say I do not dress as smartly as I should for my shows. And if we do do a Rosebud show, I think we should try to look good. Yes. Yes. Because quality counts. I do, people expect me to wear a jumper. So I do wear a jumper.

10:50To add a little excitement, I cover the jumper when I go on. So I'm wearing a kind of flak jacket. A gilet. A gilet. It is actually a gilet. It is a gilet. And I build up to it and then I zip the gilet. Yeah. Sometimes I get the audience to do a countdown. Yeah. You know, three, two, one. I've seen this. It's great. Yeah. So that's my little moment. Moment of excitement. But I do, in the wings, I do do certain things. I mean, I remember being with somebody called Russell Harty. Do you remember him? A television presenter. Yeah, I do. Very nice guy. Had been a teacher. And he used to run on the spot at great speed.

11:24Oh, that's good. You were a gentleman up. Yeah. And I do remember working, which I did a lot, with David Frost. And he would, just before it began, he would lean forward and sort of squeeze your knee and say, isn't this exciting? X million people are watching. And then he would go 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. I'm on. And he timed it perfectly. So whatever the music was, that was the minute. That's a good one. Yeah. Gosh. Got to get yourself ready to deliver the goods. That is good. Okay. All of these, I think, are good tips for people going into high pressure situations. Meetings, you know, at work, before you go in the meeting.

12:0610, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4. I'm on. I performed, and I will have told you this before, years ago with a man called Bernard Manning. Yes. Who was a stand-up comedian whose material was totally unacceptable. Even then. And I appeared in his club. And he gave me a very good note, which was, when they get rowdy, slow down. Just slow down. The noisier they are, the quieter you go. The faster you want to go, the slower you need to go. Take your time. Pace it. Pace it. And when the laugh comes, I do remember Donald Sinton saying this to me, laughter, just see if it goes up to the top. Imagine the roof of a house and the laugh is rolling up to the top of the house and just wait for it to go over, over, over, over, over.

12:54Oh, and just let it roll down the other side and not till it's towards the end of falling down the other side do you carry on with the next line. It's all very good tips, listeners. I hope you're taking notes at home. All a bit ridiculous. If you're ever doing any public speaking, it's all good stuff. Well, it is. I mean, yeah. These things are crafts that over the years you can learn. The other thing is when you're doing public speaking, don't use notes. People find this very, very difficult. I know. You can have the notes. People, you don't need notes. You need to know what you want to say. Maybe write down the notes.

13:30Then fold the piece of paper up. Put it in your pocket. The back of your jeans. the jacket pocket you know it's there if you need it if you have to have notes Winston Churchill said if you've got to have notes brandish your notes don't apologise for them brandish them so you've got them there yeah use them like a sort of prop as a prop yes and then glance down never in the field but you want to feel it's actually happening in the moment so if you can no notes but I've got notes today because I'm going to read from the diaries aren't I yes and you do need to read that don't you Giles you haven't learnt these off by heart yet I have not learnt these off by heart.

14:07And this is, these are my diaries from, I kept a diary, if you're new to this, I've kept a diary since the end of the 1950s when I was at school and we are working our way through them. I've just left university, we're now at the beginning of 1971, it's my first year in the grown up world. I know, you said to me earlier today, you said this is the best year yet. Well I think it's a fun episode. That's exciting. I think it is quite fun. Wednesday, 20th January 1971. Took Michelle to Houston. 11am, meeting at the House of Commons with Sir Clive Bossom MP. An amiable buffer, Major Sir Clive, Second Baronet, best known for his name.

14:52On hearing it, Churchill is said to have rumped, Bossom, Bossom, neither one thing nor t 'other. we were seeing sir clive because he set a wonderful idea during the summer recess open the historic westminster hall to the public and tell its incredible story by means of an archway productions sonne lumiere we stood with him alone in the middle of the vast hall when it was built in 1097 it was the largest enclosed space in europe on the spot where thomas moore and guy Fawkes and Charles I were tried, where George IV held his coronation banquet, and Churchill lay in state, gazing up at the famous hammer-beam ceiling and marvelling at the potential.

15:38It's a matchless setting, and the story we could tell from the 11th century to the present day is England's story. It could be fabulous. We could certainly do it. But will the Commons authorities let it happen? did I explain that I was into Sonnais Lumière? I don't know that I did. Yes, well, you went to see, you've mentioned them a couple of times. You went to see one that wasn't successful in Switzerland, do you remember? That's right, well remembered. And then you've since spoken about them. I have to say, Giles, I don't think I'm with you on Sonnais Lumière. Nobody is. No. As you'll discover, as the story wears on, I'm the person who killed it in this country.

16:17I think they're a sort of joke thing that French people write. Well, they were huge in France. and also a huge, I think, in Egypt, the pyramids. You can see a solar layer. Oh, that would be good, yeah. I mean, that's the pyramids. It's sound and light. That's what the French words mean, son et lumière, and the story is told by great actors with wonderful music and lights light up the scene. So it can be fabulous. But eventually, mostly in the UK, it became a history lesson in the rain. Yes, that's right, exactly. Anyway, but to do one there, and we formed this little company called Archway Productions to put these on.

16:53Thursday the 21st of January 1971 A curious evening A seance at the home of Colin Smythe and Peter Bander In Gerard's Cross We heard the dead speak Through the good offices of Peter's friend Dr Konstantin Raudiva A Latvian who contacts the departed By means of recording their voices on tape The session was conducted like a scientific experiment There were parapsychologists there, but also independent engineers from Belling and Lee Limited, who assured us that the equipment hadn't been tampered with, and that the tapes were virgin tapes fresh from the factory. To cut to the chase, after a lot of mumbo-jumbo and hours of waiting, we did discern distinct voices through the crackle and hiss of the tapes when they were slowly played back to us, and heavily amplified.

17:47Most of it was in Latvian. But I did hear a voice sounding uncannily like Winston Churchill. It declared that it was Winston Churchill. Dr. Rowdiva interpreted what Churchill said thus. Mark you. Make believe, my dear, yes. Once we had heard the recording played back a number of times, I realized that what the voice was saying was a phrase from Land of Hope and Glory. make thee mightier yet. Peter Bander was literally salivating as we listened to the recordings. His lips were dribbling. I wasn't sure what to make of it. Weird. Weird. I still have a copy of the recording on a little EP. I'll give it to you in case we can play it.

18:42Yeah. So anyway, Monday the 8th of March 1971 My 23rd birthday 9am Hair at Crimper's in Baker Street 11am Brigadier Short at the House of Commons to discuss Sonny Lumière 1pm Meet Mike Palmer from Oxford Isis Day's Leicester Square Tube 3pm Meet Reg Davis Pointer in Berwick Street He's starting a new publishing imprint and I'm going to edit a series of play scripts for him starting with editions of Cinderella and Aladdin by H.J. Byron. 4pm, Irene Giuseppe at her office in Craven Street. She sits at a tiny desk in the corner of her vast empty room, bare floorboards, bare walls, manuscripts in piles on the floor around her.

19:32All day long she sits there, sipping at a glass of gin and water, taking calls, making calls, doing deals. The deal for my column on the Manchester Evening News is done. £54 per month, starting next month. 6pm. Join the parents in their room at the West London Hotel, Bayswater. It's a big room, but a bit bleak. Ben, my brother, now 12, sleeps on a put-you-up bed behind a makeshift curtain in the corner. We went for a festive meal in Queensway. So this is your parents living in a hotel now? Living in a hotel, and it's the West London Hotel Bayswater, so it's hardly Groven House Park Lane where we're recording this.

20:19My father, as you'll remember, was a successful solicitor. My mother was a teacher, but my father never quite got on top of his finances. And they'd moved out of their flat. I think they'd been turned out of their flat because they'd come to a break clause in the lease, and the landlord didn't like the fact my mother was running her nursery school from the flat so they had to move they hadn't yet found anywhere else so they were living in this hotel in the term time my brother was at boarding school but in the holidays he was with my parents sharing their bedroom age 12 and i seem to remember they were only paying rent for two people so my brother had to be sort of sneaked in oh god it was a bit like that not ideal for him not ideal for him and they would go down my father would down for the meal with my mother and they would sort of put food into his briefcase to take it out for my brother.

21:17It was a little bit, I mean, money problems were very real. And I'm sure I was conscious of that when he went out for the meal in Queensway, which almost certainly would have been an Indian meal or a Chinese meal. I loved a special fried rice. Oh, lovely. And would they have been telling their friends that they were living in this hotel? Or do you think they'd have been no i mean not that they had a huge number of friends in that sense my father had a lot of professional friends but no they wouldn't have they would have been a bit ashamed not ashamed but a bit embarrassed yeah a bit awkward a bit awkward yeah

22:04Wednesday the 11th of March 1971 I'm on the train returning to London from Manchester My meeting with Brian Redhead editor of the Manchester Evening News went well He was very fatherly they all are, it's rather irritating and seemed to know quite a bit about me He told me his real passion is contraception We need much more of it, apparently. And redhead's at the ready. He's personally handed around. Yes, but you've got to bear in mind, this is all new stuff. We're at the beginning of this thing called the permissive society. People are sleeping together outside of marriage. It's really an issue.

22:47The pill is a novelty. People are not sure whether it's going to have side effects. So he's a serious-minded person. No, no, and teenage pregnancy was a real issue. I know it's on the decline now, but it was a big thing back then, wasn't it? This is the Brian Redhead who later became very well known as one of the presenters of the Today programme. He told me his real passion is contraception. We need much more of it, apparently, and redheads at the ready. And his one remaining ambition is to become editor of The Guardian. He's a bit chippy and self-consciously northern. He was quite disconcerted when I told him Grandpa lives in Accrington and Pa was born in Cheshire.

23:27But I liked him, and I want to do this well. As I write, 5.30pm, I'm featuring on PM on Radio 4. I've launched the National Scrabble Championships. I've put an advertisement in the personal column of the Times, inviting anyone who wanted to take part to write to me at 11 the Close N10. Hundreds have. The official public relations people for Scrabble have also been in touch, asking me what I think I'm up to. I have not replied saying, doing your job for you, because the truth is, I now realise that I'm going to need their help to make it all happen. Harold Lloyd has died. Of those silent American comedy performers, he was the only one who really made me laugh.

24:15I could do with an evening of Harold Lloyd. Instead, I'm going to the cinema with Simon Cadell. He has chosen Assault for our mutual entertainment. It's an X-rated film about sex and violence. Simon is partial to that kind of thing. Oh, dear. Yeah, exactly. Moving quickly on. Harold Lloyd. Do you remember Harold Lloyd? Harold Lloyd. Have you even heard of him? I can't believe it, Harriet. Sorry. Sorry, Harold Lloyd. You've heard of Buster Keaton. Yes. You've heard of Charlie Chaplin. Yes. This is the funny one. Harold Lloyd is the funny one. Oh, dear. It's slapstick from the 1920s. It's amazing.

24:52Oh, we need to watch it. We do need to watch it. We might watch it together and see if you do laugh. Actually, let's do that. Next time you come round to our house, we've got the television, we just say, Harold Lloyd, and up he comes. Watch it and see. Okay. And listeners, if you two liked Harold Lloyd and are not as old as me, but much, much younger, like Harriet, just write in and put her right. Okay. Sunday, 18th April, 1971. Charing Cross 10.40am Train to Etchingham Cyril Fletcher met me at the station and drove me to his magnificent house Summerhill Park Old Heathfield an exact reproduction of the Queen Anne house in which he last lived he's very droll and very nice and besotted with his wife Betty Estelle who is sweet twittering and bird-like their mutual devotion is touching to see they married in 1941 and go back to St.

25:47Martin in the Fields each year to renew their vows. Betty was an actress, a pioneer in television. She appeared on John Logie Baird's original 30-line TV. A film star in the 30s, she danced with the Prince of Wales. He was a terrible drinker, my dear, and a very poor dancer, whatever they tell you. And now she dances attendance on Cyril. Cyril was a TV pioneer too. He appeared on the first BBC television broadcasts from Alexandra Palace in 1938, reciting odd odes wearing bright yellow face makeup so that my ugly old mug would show up on the flickering screen. It's because of his odd odes that Cyril is to be one of the team captains in the Rhyme in Time panel game I've devised for Radio 4.

26:39If it happens. The other lunch guest was George Rylands, known as Dady. Cambridge Don, Shakespeare scholar, Mary Sprite. He knew Virginia Woolf. He devised John Gielgud's Ages of Man. He directed his Hamlet in 1945. He's the mainstay of the Arts Theatre Cambridge, where Cyril and Betty have been putting on pantos for years. It was my kind of lunch, full of funny stories. Dady gave us the definitive Gielgud gaff story. John Gielgud was taken to lunch at the Ivy by Edward Knobloch, a minor playwright noted for his dullness. A familiar figure brushed past their table and Gielgud remarked, there goes the second biggest boar in London.

27:26Who is the first? asked his host. Why, Eddie Knobloch, of course. Oh, I don't mean you, Eddie. The other Eddie Knobloch. Wow. Great story, isn't it? Yeah. Wednesday the 28th of April 1971 Lunch with Simon D He is quite mad He did not stop talking Do I have things up my sleeve? Yes, and under my pillow Also in my study, lying around my flat Gathering dust in a couple of spare rooms And permanently circling in my mind Ideas for films and television Radio and advertising Series for children and for adults Formats for radio stations Poetry, both obvious and obtuse Short stories and long stories and even longer ones, and of course, the book.

28:10He accepts that his career as a television interviewer is over. Everyone knows I should have a show, and everybody knows I want a show, and everybody knows I can do a show, and everybody knows I haven't got a show. Obviously, something is wrong, but let us leave that to the historians. At the moment, there are far more important things to be done for the race and the planet. Perhaps with your help, Charles, I can find a way. We talked about outer space, inner peace, sex, drugs, women's lib, up with women's lib, hot pants, down with hot pants. It was all crazy and rather uncomfortable. He kept getting louder and louder until everyone in the restaurant was listening.

28:54We went to the Barracuda in Baker Street and had the works, lobster, champagne, brandy, and I paid. He has nothing. He used to earn£1 ,000 a week. He claims to be the first man on British television to earn as much. Now, all that's left is the flat in Drayton Gardens, the double-double bed, and Bunny, his wife. Peace, Giles. Peace, man. Peace. This fellow, Simon D., was as famous as Graham Norton, as famous as Jonathan Ross. He was a chat show host. His show was the biggest show. But he went crazy. It all went wrong. Gosh. But we stayed friends. Friday the 7th of May 1971. At noon, I presented myself at the Dorchester Hotel in Park Lane for the Associated Speakers annual conference.

29:50Siddle Fletcher owns the agency, formerly the Morris Frost Lecture Agency, and I'm now the youngest speaker on their books. It was a very strange occasion. A cattle market, really. I arrived with the Duke of Bedford and Ben Lyon. B.B. Daniels died six weeks ago. This was his first public outing since. We, the speakers, whether world-famous or quite unknown, were given name badges, colour-coded according to booking price. Mine was red. I'm 30 guineas. And instructed firmly not to talk to one another, but to mingle with the bookers. Scores of stout ladies in flowery hats The chairman and secretaries of the nation's assorted literary societies and ladies' luncheon clubs Who are you?

30:41What do you talk about? You're very young I hope you don't expect to travel first class At one o 'clock, luncheon was served We speakers sat on a raised top table facing the bookers I was seated between Polly Elwes Who was sweet, friendly and chatty and Godfrey Wynne, who was less so. Throughout lunch, I was fixated by his hairpiece. It was lightly attached to the front of his head and the room was very hot and he seemed very nervous. He was due to speak first after lunch and as the meal proceeded, the glue from the wig trickled over the poor fellow's forehead and down onto his cheeks. He's homosexual, obviously, but he spoke of not being married as though it was something that hadn't quite happened yet and was about to the moment the right gal came along.

31:29When he got up to address the room, I noticed two things. How nervous he was, his hands trembled without ceasing, and how much the ladies loved him. Famously, Lord Beaverbrook once said, Godfrey Wynne shakes hands with people's hearts. How does he do it? It is partly because he speaks very simply and he dares to be sentimental. Oh, interesting. Very interesting. I think I learned quite a lot from him and I'm only realising now how much I learned from him. I mean, he was the highest paid columnist of the day at this time, writing for a magazine like Woman every week. And people, women, the readers, adored him.

32:19And, well, he also, I think, meant what he said. so it was true as well as simple and sentimental Thursday 13th May 1971 telephone call from Lord Longford he is setting up an independent commission of inquiry to look at the whole question of pornography is there a problem? if there is, what can be done about it? it's a high powered group we've got two bishops, an archbishop, a high court judge and Malcolm Muggeridge but we need some young blood I thought of you and Cliff Richard what do you say? I said yes. Oh, I bet you did, Giles. Very interesting. Tuesday the 25th of May, 1971, to the Institute of Advanced Legal Studies, 25 Russell Square, where the Pornography Commission gathers for the first time.

33:07I sit with Cliff Richard, who is dressed in the most gorgeous nut-brown chamois leather suit with silken shirt and scarves to match. He must be 10 years older than me, but he looks so young and so, so wholesome And of course, he's goody two-shoes nice. The room is crowded. Mostly distinguished old buffers, clerics, lawyers, retired civil servants, one or two senior journalists. I recognised Peregrine Westthorne, a couple of token women, middle-aged doctors with heavy specks and low-slung bosoms. Cliff is the prettiest thing here by far. We sat at long tables set in a square, pencils and paper to hand, earnest and eager, and at 4.30 sharp, Lord Longford called us to order and welcomed us to the crusade.

33:57Crusade? I thought this was supposed to be an independent, open-minded inquiry. He told us that he had worked with the late Lord Beveridge on the famous Beveridge report that 30 years ago had formed the basis of the welfare state. He hoped, he prayed, that our work would prove as significant. After the rallying cry and roll call We discussed aims and methods It was all rather humdrum and platitudinous I think I was expecting something more sparky From this gathering of the great and the good Cliff and I kept stroom Lord Longford did most of the talking He's 65 and nutty as a fruitcake But the mad professor look And the fumbly-bumbly way of speaking Make him oddly endearing And because he's been around forever He knows everybody He was a minister under Attlee and Wilson, but he started out as a Tory.

34:51When we were chatting over the pre-meeting cup of tea, he told me about his first encounter with Stanley Baldwin. In the early 30s, Frank, you must call me Frank, was a Conservative Party researcher and found himself at a country house party where Baldwin was guest of honour. After lunch, the Prime Minister, Baldwin, invited young Frank to join him for a stroll. The conversation didn't exactly flow, but eventually Frank thought of something intelligent to ask the great man. Tell me, Prime Minister, who would you say has most influenced your political ideas? After an interminable pause, Baldwin replied, Sir Henry Main.

35:34And what did he say? That whereas Rousseau argued all human progress was from contract to status. The real movement was from status to contract. Baldwin halted in his tracks. His face darkened. Or was it the other way around?

35:58But it was fascinating for me. I mean, I know these names mean nothing to people now. But these were all not just household names, but these are major senior figures. and I'm 23 years old, sitting there with Cliff Richard, who was already very famous as a pop singer, bemused at witnessing all this happening. Excited to be there, but not quite sure what we were supposed to be there doing. And did you, in those sorts of situations, did you feel like you deserved to be there or did you think, oh gosh, I'm a bit of an imposter? No, I don't think I felt I was an imposter, nor did I think I deserved to be here.

36:36I just marveled that I was. And by now I had been very spoiled in that I'd met a lot of very senior people when I was at the university and president of the debating society there, the Oxford Union. That's when I met a lot of famous people. So I'd had my own TV show. I interviewed famous people. So I was getting used to it. But I don't think I was presumptuous. No, I'm sure you weren't. I mean, I was sitting and observing, going back and scribbling it down. And you were polite. Yes. And did you ever worry about, what am I going to say next? Or did that come quite naturally to you? Yes, I think I was already worried about not saying too much.

37:17Well, that's good, Giles. Yeah. I followed Cliff's example. Cliff's been a role model to me all my life. Except my wife says, she said to me first then, start on the oil of Olay. Michelle said that to me. Because obviously I went home and talked about Cliff. And I said, his skin is fantastic. And she says to me to this day, if you first met Cliff back in, you know, 1971, you'd look like Cliff today. You and Cliff would still, you'd look as young as Cliff does. People would think we're twins. Wow. Instead of people thinking I'm his dad. Yeah. Anyway, on we go. Yeah, I mean, Cliff, what a good looking man Cliff Richard is.

37:55He's a very good looking man. But I think he won't want to see me this Christmas. Because the other day on This Morning, the ITV program I appear on, his name came up and I said I hope he's not coming this Christmas for this Christmas album because he always brings his own gravy for the this morning when we're doing the roast joke he brings his own gravy because he's vegetarian well no he's got a vineyard he's got his own wine he's got a special wine he makes his own wonderful gravy oh lovely it's poisonous well it's not poisonous I don't want to be sued it's not as nice as he thinks but for years I've been taking this gravy and saying oh it's a lovely gravy so I'm hoping he's in Jamaica or Barbados and not listening to Rosebud, because we'd like to have him as a guest, wouldn't we?

38:33You've just said Cliff Richard's gravy isn't nice on the podcast. Well, I withdraw that. Yes. It's just not to Giles' taste. Exactly. It's delicious gravy, Cliff. What kind of fool am I? Cliff, we'd love to see you here. In fact, do you know, he's such a nice guy. I was doing the show that I do with the great Dame Judi Dench last year or the year before, and we looked out of the dressing room window that Judi Dench and I were sharing at the queue of people wanting to go in, and she said, isn't that Cliff Richard? And he was at the back of the queue waiting to get in. He'd bought a single ticket to come and see the show.

39:06That is lovely. And he was waiting. He was just waiting with everybody else. Do you know what, Charles? I think Cliff might be listening to this. So I think you should actually say sorry, because I genuinely mean this. His gravy is probably absolutely delicious. You just may not like it. I mean, you like cold baked beans. So I don't know whether I'm really holding you up as a great arbiter of taste on food. I have no taste when it comes to food. Right, Cliff. Sir Cliff, I hope that you're hearing this. We would love to have you. We love your gravy. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Come and join us on the Rosebud.

39:39And you look fantastic. You do. I mean, you do look fantastic. Yeah. And you look fantastic then.

39:51Let's go back to Tuesday the 1st of June 1971. Bank holiday weekend. We went to Accrington and visited Grandpa and Auntie Edith. They're very sweet and old, and the house really does smell of lavender. We stayed in Burnley at the Rose Hill House Hotel. Yes, Burnley is in the Good Food Guide. That was edited by your father, wasn't it? Yeah, not in 1971, but it was in the 90s. Well, we lived by it. It may occur quite often. Yeah, so did we. And we ended up here in Manchester, where last night I sat with Michelle in the tiny self-operating studio of the BBC. and watched her present BBC One in the North West for the penultimate time.

40:34It's not been much fun for her. When she's on the late shift, she sleeps on a camp bed in the ladies' loo, unless the star presenter needs it for one of his assignations. He has different girls daily. The atmosphere is pretty sleazy, but at least Michelle can say she was the first woman to read the news on BBC TV. Of course, it's only the local news, as the news editor explained to her, we can't have a woman reading the proper news. People wouldn't take it seriously. People wouldn't believe it. I'm still in Manchester. I'm in my dressing room writing this between recordings of Call My Bluff. Frank Muir is lovely, but he does bang on a bit.

41:17He's just been boasting about being made president of his local rifle club. Soto Voce, Patrick Campbell murmured, small bore, I suppose. Much mockery of my involvement in Lord Longford's porn inquiry. Understandable, I suppose. Julian Orchard is the other guest. A wonderful, lugubrious face, like Fernandell's, and a lovely, self-deprecating manner. He's naturally funny. I'm not. I try to be funny. Doesn't work. Tuesday, the 8th of June, 1971. First gathering of the Porn Commission TV Subcommittee. I put on my new flared turquoise trousers. But sure enough, Cliff outdazzles me in a sumptuous plum velvet outfit, complete with medallions and silver and gold chains.

42:11His skin is pretty peachy too. The meeting is chaired by Malcolm Muggeridge, broadcaster and sage. Looking like an ancient dandified turtle, he gets away with not knowing who anybody is by calling everybody dear boy. He introduces me to Peregrine Westthorne. Dear boy, you must meet this dear boy. I get the impression from Perry that once upon a time, Malcolm was a bit of a goer, a proper red-blooded ladies' man. But now that his libido has collapsed, he's discovered the joys of chastity and vegetarianism. Malcolm opened the meeting by reading out to us the BBC's original statement of intent inscribed on the wall at the entrance to Broadcasting House.

42:56This temple of the arts and muses is dedicated to Almighty God by the first governors in the year 1931. It is their prayer that good seeds sown may bring forth a good harvest, that all things hostile to peace or purity may be banished from this house, and that the people, inclining their ears to whatsoever things are beautiful and honest and of good report, may tread the paths of wisdom and righteousness. We all agreed that sadly things ain't what they used to be. And Cliff declared that some of the dancing on top of the pops is undoubtedly designed to titillate. but hand on heart we couldn't say there was anything approaching what you'd call pornography to be seen on british tv mark my words said malcolm muggeridge narrowing his eyes and smacking his lips the rots set in if we don't do something now within a generation nudity and profanity on the box will be commonplace and rampant homosexuality will be offered to us by way of entertainment.

44:06Tuesday the 15th of June 1971. Lunch at the Garrick Club with Lord Longford and the evening standard film critic, Alexander Walker. Lord Longford was particularly mellow, fresh from yesterday's trip to Windsor, where he was installed as a Knight of the Garter. He's devoted to the Queen. She is wonderful, beautiful and very funny. People don't realise how amusing she can be. I suddenly heard myself asking, do you think the Queen enjoys sex? Frank wasn't the least abashed. Of course she does, he enthused, raising his glass of wine to her. She's a healthy Christian woman, and she enjoys writing as I do.

44:48She isn't a Puritan, you know, and nor am I. People expect me to be teetotal, but I'm not. I love wine, and I enjoy sex greatly. After all, I've had eight children. I swim in the nude regularly. There's nothing nicer. I doubt that the Queen swims in the nude. Prince Philip might. They've got a pool they're bugging in Paris, you know. Alexander Walker, his can tan very much in evidence, then brought us back to earth with a crisp analysis of the current cinema scene. Forget what it says in the papers, old-fashioned romance is not making a comeback. Ever more explicit sex and violence are on their way.

45:29Lord Longford sighed. this is bad news Giles you and I are going to have to go and see some of it wow this is fun and we did next episode sex and violence can you believe it sex and violence and does the queen enjoy sex that's interesting I can't believe you just came out straight out and asked that question I can't believe that but I think he said I'm surprised I didn't record this maybe I was a bit bashful I think he said, because I certainly remember him saying about the riding, he said, you know, Christian people, it's almost their duty to enjoy sex, but also people who like riding enjoy sex.

46:10Because he rode regularly, the Queen rides regularly. And I think he saw the two as going hand in hand. Oh, that's what I'm sure Jilly Cooper did, didn't she? She wrote a whole book about it. Called Riders. Exactly. Absolutely. And as we know, Queen Camilla loved Jilly Cooper. Oh, and she likes riding too. And she loves... So there we are. I think we've revealed enough. This may appall you. You may not want to know this. I'm terrible on horseback. Oh, really? It doesn't surprise me, Charles. I'm really bad. I'm so frightened up there. Oh, really? Oh, it's such a long way down. I've been on a horse once or twice or maybe three or four times.

46:50Oh, no, I used to have a pony. Oh, what was your pony called? Gemma. Gemma. Oh, this is interesting. Often when I ask people, think of a moment of joy, often into my head comes, because I often try to think of what would I say at this point in case they don't come up with an idea to try and encourage them. Often a moment of joy that comes into my head is the time I went pony trekking in Iceland. And it's not something I would naturally do, but somehow because Michelle wanted to do it, I got onto the pony. they were small ponies and we were running it was rough territory and it was so exhilarating yeah just holding on to the pony with my knees and my hands we didn't have helmets on thing they were tiny little ponies but it was it was thrilling oh that's lovely yeah yeah i think mine is a is in a moment of exhilaration whenever i think about that it's being on the waltzes at the fair in Dartmouth.

47:51I used to love the funfair and it's one of those ones where they spin you round. There's someone on the back and they spin you round and I thought that was so fun. I like those because they're on the ground. I couldn't... I once went on Wild Mouse. I don't know where that is. Wild Mouse. It's one of those funfair things but it would go up, and then along, and there, and then down. Oh no, I don't like the dots. I don't like that. But actually being on the ground is fine. Whizzing. Whizzing is fine. Whizzing. Where were you on the Dodgems? Oh, this is the Waltzers. I know the Waltzers. The Dodgems.

48:24I've been on the Dodgems loads. I love the Dodgems. I love a bit of Dodgems. I think I'm really good on the Dodgems. Do you? Well, I'm one of those annoying people that thinks I'm a really good driver. So I think I'm really good on the Dodgems. Oh, look. We've got two treats in store. And you people listening to this, think of what your weekend treat is going to be. I'm going to have Harriet over to watch the television. We're going to show her Harold Lloyd. Harold Lloyd! And we're going to see if she laughs. Yeah. and maybe we'll go to a fun fair somewhere. Oh, great. And you can take me on the Dodgems.

48:53Yeah. And you can show me your driving. Yes. Because I think I'm a pretty dab hat. I'm a terrible passenger. Oh, yeah. And I'm quite a good driver. Are you? Oh, yes. Oh, wow. Can't wait to see. If people want to get in touch to put us right on all sorts of things. Yes. What do they do? If Cliff wants to get in touch. Gosh. I mean, I think we should set up a bespoke email account for Sir Cliff. I think we should. That's big news. but everyone else can email hello at rosebudpodcast.com. But actually if you are Cliff or Tom Baker or their associates you can do that for a start because it isn't anybody else except Harriet opening the emails.

49:30It is just Harriet. Hello at rosebudpodcast.com. Harriet does try to reply to as many emails as possible and if she hasn't got around to yours yet it doesn't mean to say she hasn't read it. She reads all of them and she forwards a lot to me. Almost too many, Harriet. Oh, almost. Not quite. Sorry. Because I do love hearing from people. Oh, and there is hot news. Some of Charlotte's rosebud cake recipes, particularly for the icing, are now on our website. That is exciting. So that is rosebudpodcast.co.uk. We're all over the place, aren't we? It's hopeless. We are all over the place. Who's doing our social media?

50:10Oh, it's me. It is you. Look, it's been great fun. as ever thank you so much we've got somebody very special on friday um coming up is that it that's it cue the music

51:07That's this week's More Rosebud with me, Giles Brandreth, and my friend and producer, Harriet Jane. It's produced by Harriet, and I turn up too.