Justin Welby

0:00Justin Welby: It's a podcast. It's on YouTube. It's a way of life. It's called Rosebud. I'm Gyles Brandreth. Cue the music.

0:30Justin Welby: Hello again, this is Giles Brandreth, welcoming you to another episode of Rosebud. And I think it's another very special one. This is the second week in Lent. I know this because I sometimes go to church. Not as often as I'd like to, but I do go. And I know we're in the run-up to Easter 2026. And of course, I've been following the news this week. There's been all sorts of dramatic news this week. But among the extraordinary stories in the press and on television was a story about an English bishop who'd been arrested and suspended from ministry following a complaint to the Church of England's safeguarding team.

1:11Justin Welby: Well, our very special guest today is the former Archbishop of Canterbury, who resigned 18 months ago because of a report published in 2024 saying that in the early days of his 12 years as Archbishop, he had failed to handle a safeguarding issue as thoroughly or as swiftly as he should have done. But that's not what this podcast is about, though we'll be touching on his resignation in the course of our conversation. This is Rosebud, and I'm going to be talking to Justin Welby about his family, his early years, and what made him the person who eventually became the top man in the Church of England around the world, conducting royal weddings, conducting the late Queen's funeral, conducting the coronation.

2:03Justin Welby: Anyway, Justin Welby's first memory is among the most remarkable I've ever encountered. And his family's story, when you hear it, is simply extraordinary. So I think, controversy aside, you are in for a fascinating hour. Welcome to Rosebud with the 105th Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby. Cue the music.

2:41Justin Welby: Justin Portal Welby. Is that the right name?

2:45Gyles Brandreth: It's certainly a name I like to use.

2:47Justin Welby: The portal bit's a bit of a surprise. What's that?

2:51Gyles Brandreth: That's my mother's maiden name. Very good. And comes from a line of business people on one side, portals paper, banknote paper. Unfortunately, that was the other side, so the money went the other way. Never mind. And, well, it's easy for you to say. And the other one was sort of military civil service, that kind of thing.

3:18Justin Welby: Well, a portal is also a doorway. It's a doorway. And it's Portal.

3:23Gyles Brandreth: They're Huguenots.

3:24Justin Welby: Good. Well, this is a doorway to your story. And I want to begin it with my very first question. Justin Portal will be born on the 6th of January, 1956. Absolutely. Hammersmith?

3:36Gyles Brandreth: uh queen charlotte's yes yes it was hampsmith yes everyone i mean it was just a baby factory three of our children were born there good so what justin is your very first memory it's going to sound very pretentious uh i was staying with my mother which i did occasionally and she said we're going out to tea with someone who I used to work for. I was about five, 1961. And we walked down Church Street onto High Street Ken and along to High Park Gate and down High Park Gate and had tea with Sir Winston Churchill because she'd been his personal secretary for six years. And I just remember a very old man and when I saw him, he cried, so I cried and then I gave him my favourite toy which was a little model of an aeroplane and then we sat down and had some tea.

4:50Justin Welby: And had your mother told you he was a great man? Did you realise you were meeting somebody special? no it was just going to tea with someone well it's we've had some remarkable first memories i think this could be taking the biscuit it's a fantastic first memory it was in it it yes

5:09Gyles Brandreth: and i then four years later he died in january 1965 and at school i was i'd just gone to boarding school and at school they closed down the school for the morning they got television sets in and we all watched the funeral and i remember the commentator probably a dimblebee i think it was i must have been i think it was richard dimblebee yeah as saying you know some people remember this some people some people even be able to say i met him and i thought oh that's me oh lovely so i

5:49Justin Welby: remember those so Churchill well it's a great first memory we have to unpack that who is this mother of yours that you stayed with occasionally that was an amusing reference or or did you only stay with her occasionally I stayed with her occasionally who was she uh she her main name

6:04Gyles Brandreth: was Jane Portal she was born in Merut in India in uh 1929 she grew up in India and then during the war in England with her uncle. He was called Rab Butler, politician, another politician.

6:24Justin Welby: That was her uncle?

6:24Gyles Brandreth: Yes, her mother's brother.

6:28Justin Welby: My goodness. I mean, Rab Butler, for people of my generation, was a huge figure.

6:32Gyles Brandreth: Yes.

6:32Justin Welby: He was the person who had held every post, every secretary of stateship you could, short of being prime minister. He'd done the lot.

6:39Gyles Brandreth: And he was acting prime minister for about two and a half years. I remember him quite well. I He was a sort of almost father to my mother because her parents were in India and couldn't get back to England for a while. So she lived with Rab and went to school, to a convent school. And in 1949, she applied for, went and got a job as Churchill's personal secretary, one of them, when he was leader of the opposition. and stayed there till April 1955. And then she, in 1955, she eloped with someone called Gavin Welby. And they got married in the States. I don't know why. And the marriage didn't last at all, really.

7:39Justin Welby: Why did she elope? Because she's come from an establishment family.

7:43Gyles Brandreth: Fucker people. It's not the sort of thing you do. I know. I don't think she often did the sort of thing you do. She was drinking very heavily. And the night before she eloped, she went out to dinner with the deputy private secretary, a guy called Anthony Montague Brown, who was an RAF hero, DFC, you know, all this sort of thing. And she went out to dinner, and one thing led to another. She eloped the night. she was very worried about eloping she eloped the next day the marriage didn't last and she fell pregnant as they say and um she assumed quite reasonably that that was the result of the honeymoon yeah the wedding night with gavin welby the wedding night with gavin welby and that was what we all assumed until 2016 when the daily charles moore the daily Telegraph discovered we with my agreement did a DNA test and proved that my father was Anthony Montague Brown not Gavin Welby so the marriage didn't last he was very complicated and drank and

8:58Justin Welby: she was drinking can I ask what they saw in one another you think Gavin and your mother you can ask but i honestly don't know um i honestly don't know i mean he was good looking

9:15Gyles Brandreth: he was very very very clever um he was quite an adventurer he told a very good story which was often untrue

9:30Justin Welby: I heard about him, believe it or not, many years ago, Rachel Kempson, the wife of Sir Michael Redgrave.

9:37Gyles Brandreth: I was lucky enough to know the Redgraves.

9:40Justin Welby: And I heard his name because there was the possibility of him, I think, marrying their daughter Vanessa. That is true. And Rachel had worries about Vanessa anyway because of her political views. She felt she was damaging her career. And his name came up as another reason for being anxious about Vanessa.

9:57Gyles Brandreth: Yes, I don't think it reduced the worries. so but he had charm clearly he had charm clearly he was a networker made friends and all your life he was your dad yes he was and um he stopped drinking for quite a while and then started again when i was 12 which funnily enough was the uh my mother stopped drinking I spent a lot of time with my grandmother and that was the good place the happy place

10:35Justin Welby: so in a way much of your parenting was done by your grandmother you would say in retrospect yes and boarding school but just to conclude on your parents Gavin Welby how was he as a father I mean or you don't now in a sense you've now been released from thinking of him as a father but until 2016 he was your dad And he thought he was my dad. Until I was 10, 11, something like that. To me, he was good and affectionate.

11:17Gyles Brandreth: To my mother and grandmother, he was abusive and aggressive. and really from the age of 12 when i was 12 he had a stroke and until he died seven years later i think it was no nine years later 1977 he died i think um he was very complicated to live with he could be wonderful but also he could be very very abusive

11:53Justin Welby: Give me your best moment with him. Something sweet. Something good that we can remember.

12:00Gyles Brandreth: Yes, absolutely. I was thinking this earlier because I thought you might ask that. One of the good moments, I think, was travelling with him. He loved to go to France. He spoke fluent French. And we'd go in the summer and go to a hotel and I'd swim and he'd get me swimming lessons. I learned to swim and travelling with him and chatting and getting to know him was lovely.

12:36Justin Welby: And I imagine he turned up on... I mean, they partied when we were about three, didn't they? They divorced when I was three. I can't ever remember them. Together as a couple.

12:45Gyles Brandreth: Yeah, I mean, I think they partied very swiftly indeed.

12:48Justin Welby: I assumed he turned up occasionally on birthdays. is oh no i lived with him he had custody oh so at the divorce when you're three years of age there is a formal divorce in those days it was a complicated legal matter it was and he wanted custody yes and because of your mother's erratic behavior and drinking probably he was given custody yes so your dad brought you up really and then you had lots of visits to your grandmother your

13:16Gyles Brandreth: mother's mother absolutely who lived in on the north coast of norfolk which was lovely so this

13:21Justin Welby: explains why you say occasionally uh your you stayed with your mother at all all falls into place but you were there christmas was there a family christmas yes but not a very comfortable one can you give me the worst of the family christmases

13:42Gyles Brandreth: I think probably I can't remember when it was my mother refused couldn't cope with seeing him he was drunk the whole Christmas there was no food no food for Christmas no I managed to find a cup of bits of bread and had a sandwich you managed to find

14:03Justin Welby: so you're about 10 or 11 at this time something like that and you're literally roaming around the kitchen saying, I'm going to eat something.

14:09Gyles Brandreth: Yeah, absolutely.

14:10Justin Welby: Here's some bread and maybe there's a bit of ham in the fridge and we can put that together.

14:13Gyles Brandreth: Yes, I think it was jam actually. Gosh, gosh. And I remember sitting in the window and looking out and seeing lots of people in families. I just thought, well, lucky them. That would be nice.

14:27Justin Welby: And what was your mother like at this time? She was clearly drinking. What is the source of this? You must have brooded about it. What made her have this life?

14:38Gyles Brandreth: I suspect, and remember she, when I was 12, she went into a mental hospital for six months and came out not drinking and never drank again. Wonderful. Went to AA and Alcoholics Anonymous and all this. And I think she would say it was something to do with separation from her parents in the war but her sister didn't drink. I think alcoholism and substance abuse, dependency, gambling, whatever, addictions are very strange things because they're partly in the mind and one wonders if they're also partly in the body. I don't know. I've never heard a really good explanation for them. There probably is one.

15:41Justin Welby: Once she was sober, did she seem to you to be a different person? Completely different. She became a Christian and started going to church

15:50Gyles Brandreth: and suddenly the position was flicked around from years and years when I rather dreaded seeing her because it was so unpredictable and difficult, through to years and years when that was much the easier parent to be with.

16:09Justin Welby: It's difficult now to put in your head what you felt at the time, but can you try to conjure up for us how you, aged 10, 11, feel about this strange family set-up? You're living with your dad. Your mother, you know, is wayward. You occasionally see her. You have a nice grandmother. What are you thinking in your head about your place in the world in relation to your family?

16:37Gyles Brandreth: Oh, I just thought this is what life is like. I do remember that because I've often thought about that.

16:46Gyles Brandreth: Children react in very, very different ways to things, as you know. And my reaction, I had no brothers or sisters that I knew of at the time. i just thought well you know in in the words of um mr rumsfeld stuff happens i didn't put it like that but that was my response that life is easier or more difficult but that's the way of the world and feeling sorry for yourself doesn't help very much and i assume that you were brought up as a

17:18Justin Welby: normal church of england boy but not you weren't particularly spiritually aware as a child no i we

17:24Gyles Brandreth: used we were what a later vicar called submarine christians so we'd surface once a year yeah at christmas very good and then we stopped surfacing ever um and we stayed below uh below the surface and um apart from at school when i had chapel morning and evening seven days a week

17:46Justin Welby: well tell us about school you're first of all living clearly in london with your father yes This is, and just getting on with life, you go to a nursery school or something?

17:56Gyles Brandreth: I went to a nursery school, which I hardly remember, and then to a pre-prep school called Gibbs. Oh, yes. Which doesn't exist, I don't think now, but I may be wrong. And then to a prep school in Seaford called St. Peter's, which certainly doesn't exist any longer.

18:15Justin Welby: What was it like?

18:16Gyles Brandreth: Do you know the, well, you would, I'm sure you know the John le Carré books. And the second one of the Smiley trilogy, an honourable schoolboy, one of the characters there is at a boarding school teaching. I don't know if you remember that. It was like that. I mean, it was like every boarding school.

18:36Justin Welby: Every story of those prep schools, and there was the mixture of the good masters and the slightly appalling masters.

18:42Gyles Brandreth: There was a mixture of the good masters and the appalling masters. It was, I remember, never being warm in the winter.

18:49Justin Welby: Did you make friends? Did you have friends at school?

18:53Gyles Brandreth: Yes, none that I've particularly kept up with or kept up with me. Did you feel a bit of a loner at school?

19:04Gyles Brandreth: Not consciously at my prep school, but yes, I did a bit. Yes, actually, I did. Who did you talk to? Was it a matron or somebody that... There was a nice matron, but I didn't talk... I don't think I... I immersed myself in books. There was a good school library with lots and lots of sort of, you know, all the books of the era of John Buckingham and all that. So I just immersed myself in every single book I could find. I do remember they had a collection of bound volumes of Punch going back into the late 19th century, and I read my way through those. I was a very fast reader, and I loved reading.

19:45Good.

19:45Justin Welby: Good. So this is the beginning of the era of the Beatles and the Rolling Stones, but you were immersing yourself in punch from the 1890s.

19:52Gyles Brandreth: Well, something like that.

19:52Justin Welby: We're getting a flavour of the child that is developing.

19:54Gyles Brandreth: Well, yes, quite.

19:55Justin Welby: And then you were sent to Eton. Had Gavin Welby been at Eton?

19:59Gyles Brandreth: No, no, no, but he wanted me to go, and he put me down there, and I passed. Yeah, and you got in. And was that a good experience? Yes, there were a lot of good things there. um there were quite a lot of normal things that were less good but there were a lot of good things it was safe and secure and um nobody was you know drunk um most of the time and i led a life of undistinguished mediocrity there i was in the middle of everything i almost failed all my exams and got checked out once. And then I pulled myself together and sort of clawed my way up to the sort of middle ranks.

20:45Justin Welby: And did you feel safe because you were in the middle of everything? Is that the reason you think you didn't try to...? No, I just wasn't very applied. Sport? Oh, no. No?

20:55Gyles Brandreth: I mean, you know, I've got... I can't kick a ball to save my life.

21:00Justin Welby: So you get safety and security and home life in a way at school and through your grandmother.

21:07Gyles Brandreth: Definitely through my grandmother. And school gives you... School was a good place, yeah. And it gives you rails along which to go. It gives me rails, yeah, which I trundle at a moderate speed. What's the best moment of your years at Eton? The thing you think, oh, yeah, that was not the great. Oh, oh, that's easy. Being involved in the theatre there. Not as an actor, but as a stage manager and that kind of thing. And being involved in productions of Richard III. and after we'd finished our Oxford and Cambridge entrance exams, we did a Lever's Play, which was The Resistible Rise of Arturo Uy. Oh, yes.

21:46Gyles Brandreth: By Brecht. By Brecht. And that whole term was a superb term.

21:53Justin Welby: And can you remember from that time, a dark time at all? Was there ever... Picture your head on the pillow in your... Did you have single rooms? Yeah, we did. Yeah, we had a nice single room. Picture your head on the pillow, going to sleep the worst night, a lonely night, an unhappy night.

22:13Gyles Brandreth: Again, very easy. It was the previous term during my A-levels. And my father was going through a particularly complicated period of drinking. and all the way through my A-level exams, every morning, there would be a 10 to 15 page letter in my pigeonhole telling me how ghastly I was and how ghastly my mother was and my grandmother and, you know, etc, etc, etc.

22:47Justin Welby: And what did you make of this? Do you read the letters or did you abandon them? No, I read them.

22:54Gyles Brandreth: I just thought, well, it's life. I mean, but it was very, it was very miserable.

23:01Justin Welby: Did you try to reply saying, dear dad, you've got this wrong? No. And that probably just fuelled his whatever.

23:07Gyles Brandreth: Well, I did reply later and then the following year and then just got another barrage. I mean, you're 16, 17, this is happening.

23:20Justin Welby: 17, yes, 17, yeah. Did you think, should I help? Did you talk about it with the housemaster or somebody?

23:27Gyles Brandreth: I did try and talk about it. The housemaster, I think, knew. What I didn't know was Eton was paying my fees at that point.

23:38Justin Welby: The school was, because they were no... They didn't turn up and they didn't want to chuck me out. Well, that was very decent of them.

23:45Gyles Brandreth: I am... I mean, seriously, I am more in their debt for that than I could possibly ever thank them for. I mean, I think that showed some real generosity and compassion because they didn't anticipate I'd ever make anything of myself. So, you know, it wasn't investment in brains. That was certainly the case. Did you talk to your grandmother? I did talk to the chaplain. No, I didn't talk to my grandmother. I did a little bit, but not properly because he was doing the same thing to her and I thought she had enough on her plate. So you talked to the chaplain and what did he say? I think he was very nice, indeed.

24:29Gyles Brandreth: I think he did get in a cousin, a courtauld cousin. A courtauld cousin of yours? Yes, through my mother. Fine. And he was very nice, but I think he knew what was going on. I think most people in the family did. And they could do very little apart from be nice and sympathetic.

24:54Justin Welby: Later in life, pastoral care became part and parcel of what you did. What would you now advise if a 17-year-old boy was in the position you were in at boarding school? Golly, what a question. How would you help them, given what you've learned since?

25:08Gyles Brandreth: Now, that's a really fascinating question. I think there are two things. First of all, I would make sure... I mean, there's a number of things that comes out of my safeguarding experience. I'd make sure there was someone else with me, and not just do it alone, because a woman ideally. I would make sure that, you said boy, that he knew that he could say absolutely anything, but I would say to him, if I think you're in danger of being abused, I'm going to have to report it. And you must understand that for your own sake and for the sake of other people who might also be in danger. But then, having got those things in place, I think I'd want to see, I would want to explore with him what the possible ways of handling this were.

26:20Gyles Brandreth: was he where was a place of refuge where did he feel safe what could i do to support him if it had a bad effect on his work and on his which is always a huge worry at that age you know if i fail my a levels what am i going to do is one of the things and say to him now how can we how can i help you with this how can i do something that will encourage you to know that

26:47Justin Welby: life will be all right so you're helping the boy the boy that is you but you're not trying to intervene with your parents because you feel they were beyond hope at that stage and i think

27:01Gyles Brandreth: what i would have said to him is is this something that if i talk to your house tutor and we one of us engages with your dad can we do you think we'll be able to help and my answer at that age would have been under no circumstances because i just didn't think there was anything that would make a difference did you blame yourself at all did you think oh inevitably yeah i was told it was my fault a great deal by your by your father by gavin yeah uh and but your mother wasn't communicating much

27:41Justin Welby: until... Well, once she'd come off the bottle, yes, she was.

27:45Gyles Brandreth: And she got married again in 1977, and in the most very happy marriage.

27:53Justin Welby: Good.

27:54Gyles Brandreth: Which lasted till 2019, when my stepfather died.

27:58Justin Welby: So her story ends happily.

28:00Gyles Brandreth: Her story ended immensely happily.

28:04Justin Welby: And you had three parents, really. You had Gavin Welby, you had your mother, Jane Portal, and you had the assistant private secretary, the deputy private secretary to Winston Churchill, whose name was, say it again? Anthony Montague Brown. Anthony Montague Brown. So you are actually the son of Anthony Montague Brown.

28:25Gyles Brandreth: I am. What happened to him? Well, this man used to come and see me from very occasionally. I probably met him half a dozen times.

28:34Justin Welby: Did he have an idea in the back of his head? I had no idea.

28:38Gyles Brandreth: I was a child. But your mother never said anything about it? No, no. Because she was alive when the news broke. Yeah, and she said she didn't remember. She said, I must have been so drunk I didn't remember, which is quite likely. Gosh, gosh.

28:52Justin Welby: So to have been conceived in a drunken stupor.

28:55Gyles Brandreth: Yes, that's right.

28:55Justin Welby: But at least it was by one of the, well, it was the secretary and the deputy private secretary to Sir Winston Churchill. I mean, that's something. I mean, given you come from an establishment-type family, I think it's not a bad start.

29:09Gyles Brandreth: If you're going to be... Yes, it caused a stir in 2016. I remember saying, when it became public, and that's the first I'd heard of it, I remember saying to the head of our comms team, oh, come on, I mean, nobody's going to be that interested. And she said, we're in the middle of the Brexit campaign. No newspaper has had any news to report except Brexit for about two months. This is a story made in heaven. It is, literally made in heaven.

29:39Justin Welby: The Archbishop of Canterbury finds a new father. It's absurd. I mean, it's incredible. After a one-night stand, I mean, it's just phenomenal. It just hits every button. But was he quite distinguished? I think, from what I've read,

29:52Gyles Brandreth: he was absolutely loyal to Churchill until Churchill's death in 1965. and I think that meant that he couldn't possibly have, you know, progressed very much in the civil service. Because he gave his life to Churchill. He gave his life to Churchill and served him honourably and beautifully. And I look at that and I think, gosh, what an extraordinary thing to do and how rare a virtue that is. He got married himself? of he was already married when he had the one i stand with my mother he he got divorced a little later and then married again and stayed married to his second wife so he had other children yes who are now your half brothers and sisters i know there's only one and that's a half sister

30:45Justin Welby: and you've met her now oh yeah you like her are you oh she's lovely are you similar do you see similarities? Not hugely, but she is lovely. Once you knew who your real father was, did you begin to look at photographs of him and sort of, did it intrigue you? Were you relieved, in fact, in a way, to find that this Gavin, well, given Gavin Welby's problems, it might almost...

31:08Gyles Brandreth: No, I just thought, well, there's another strange thing. I thought, you know, life isn't boring. It was very much the same as i said as a child it didn't occur to me to be relieved depressed um excited or anything

31:26Justin Welby: i just thought well there's a thing by the time you discover this you are archbishop of canterbury yes it does and so prayer is part and parcel of your life and people pray in very different ways yes uh was part and parcel of your form of prayer then that you would actually talk to god or think your thoughts through, laying them out before God, this strange experience.

31:50Gyles Brandreth: Absolutely.

31:50Justin Welby: Could you describe a little bit of what you did? Oh, gosh.

31:54Gyles Brandreth: It was a throwaway line, and then it ended up being the centrepiece of what I said, is my identity is not found in DNA, but in who God knows I am. God understands me at an even deeper level than DNA and knows me and loves me and has known since the beginning of time that this was me. It was saying to God, you know who I am at levels and depths so far below, deeper than anything I know and that Jesus Christ loved me and died for me and saved me as I am not how anyone else thinks of me or how I think of myself okay you're giving me the fact

32:51Justin Welby: now that you have four parents and I'd like you to tell me with each one you've got to ask I've

32:57Gyles Brandreth: I often thought that.

32:57Justin Welby: What you have now that you got from your parents, what did Jane Welby give you that you have today?

33:04Gyles Brandreth: Jane Welby, nay Portal, gave me love, support, goodness, huge sense of humour.

33:26Justin Welby: once she was sober. And do you think of those characteristics, which is the one that is strongest in you? How is Jane manifested in you today?

33:37Gyles Brandreth: Your say, I mean, apart from my striking good looks. Yeah. That's just passed swiftly over there.

33:43Justin Welby: I was thinking that you got those from Gavin, except clearly you didn't. No, I didn't, absolutely not. But maybe it's your sense of humour.

33:50Gyles Brandreth: I think it's my sense of... Well, it's... I think what it is, above all, is something I didn't say, but I'm thinking aloud, really, is a deep, deep belief in the possibility of redemption.

34:09Justin Welby: What does redemption mean?

34:11Gyles Brandreth: It means literally buying something back that you've pawned or... Oh, to redeem something. To redeem, it means whatever, however bad things are, that there is always the possibility of change. Gavin, I think, well, I learned how to play bridge quite well from him. He was a professional gambler at one point. Oh, marvellous. And he was always, he was encouraging to me. You know, he believed I could do things. and then if you're talking about parents my grandmother just brought me up to know that i was cared for and loved and was generous and brought me up to love history and i'd sit when i was with her i'd sit in the house in blakeney on the coast in winter with the wind howling round the house from the North Sea and read her endless store of Kipling books and others.

35:21And then my, who else?

35:23Gyles Brandreth: Anthony Montague Brown obviously gave me my DNA and my genetics and all kinds of good things. And then God is the ultimate loving and protective father who some brings me to know the deepest source of love and hope in the worst possible circumstances. Yes, because God is the first real father you had.

35:53Justin Welby: And the only infallible one. Very good.

36:03Justin Welby: When you were this teenager, in the middle at Eton, comfortably in the middle, but you're going to apply for Cambridge. Is that right? Yes. What was in your head your ambition? What were you going to be surrounded by people burning with ambition?

36:17Gyles Brandreth: As they were. It was certainly never to be Archbishop of Canterbury. In the moments where things were going slightly better I thought I very much wanted to be a politician at one point. I've always loved politics. I was brought up with politicians.

36:33Justin Welby: Of course.

36:34Gyles Brandreth: Politics surrounded and immersed.

36:36Justin Welby: Exactly.

36:36Gyles Brandreth: Gavin was a Conservative Party candidate twice. Oh, my goodness. I didn't really begin to think seriously about it until I was at Cambridge.

36:46Justin Welby: What college? Trinity. And what did you read? One of these funny combined subjects?

36:50Gyles Brandreth: I did two years of law. Ah. And then the law faculty and I decided that this was a very bad idea by independent but unanimous consent. And so I then did history with a lot of economic history, colonial history, modern decolonisation history.

37:10Justin Welby: And when did you have your first crush, your first moment? Oh, gosh. Were you at university or school?

37:17Gyles Brandreth: No, no. School? I was at school. It was someone I knew sailing. Oh, from the holidays?

37:24Justin Welby: Yes. Oh, what fun. And was that fun? No. Oh, I'm sorry.

37:30Gyles Brandreth: Because I was too nervous to say anything. Oh, it was unrequited, really, was it?

37:33Justin Welby: Oh, good heavens, yes, it was private.

37:35Gyles Brandreth: Oh. Oh, there's nothing. Well, no, I feel, no.

37:38Justin Welby: It's just silly teenagers. Well, I know, but I was a silly teenager once, and so I'm feeling for you. Well, it's very kind of you. Well, no, but I am feeling for you. So when was your proper, your first romance?

37:52Gyles Brandreth: It was in 1975 in the, wait a second, when did I go? 76 in the autumn term so you're 20 i was 20 and it continues to this day and it's called my wife

38:10Justin Welby: oh how wonderful so describe the moment you first see her across a crowded quadrangle or

38:16Gyles Brandreth: in the boating shed chance it'd be a fine thing where did you first see her well it is worth putting in context that in at that point at cambridge there were 10 men for every woman Of course, different world, wasn't it? Different world. And Trinity had no women at that point. And our vicar, a lovely, lovely man called Sander Miller at a church called Haley Trinity Prompton said, there's a girl just gone up to Newnham and she's come to faith very recently. I wonder if you could look her up. So I dropped a note round saying, would you like to come to supper on Sunday evening? so she accepted Julie appeared and so she was the one woman, there were ten men there and we went off to church that evening after supper and there we went

39:14Justin Welby: You mention Audrey Brompton and Sandy Miller of course people who don't know about all this some people immersed in it will know this is the evangelical you know, flagship. Exactly. I didn't realize that faith was important to you in that way at that stage. It wasn't until I was 19.

39:35Gyles Brandreth: So how do you discover this at 19? Is it through Eldridge to Brompton? No. No, fine. When I was 18, I was teaching in Kenya. That was a really happy time.

39:46Justin Welby: Ah, this was your gap year.

39:48Gyles Brandreth: Gap year. And from January to July of that year, i was teaching up in the in a what they call the harambe school and harambe was swahili for self-help is swahili for self-help and they were schools supported by the local community so no resources and for the first time i met people for whom god was not a philosophical concept in which i had very little interest but was someone who you could know and who was should be at the centre of life. And when I came back to England, I ran a mile from all that for the first year, and then at the beginning of my second year, through a friend, came to faith when I could run no further.

40:36Gyles Brandreth: You say came to faith. What does that mean in terms of,

40:42Justin Welby: I mean, you'd gone to church, submarine-like, you knew it all.

40:46Gyles Brandreth: I didn't know it all, that was the point. No, but you, forgive me, you knew the superficial bits. Yes, I had read the Bible because there are only two books in the house in Kenya. One was the New English Bible.

40:58Justin Welby: From beginning to end? Yes. From Genesis to... Revelations. Revelations. My goodness.

41:06Gyles Brandreth: With complete incomprehension for much of it. I mean, try reading Leviticus by a gas pressure lamp late on an evening in a wood hut with the rains just starting. I mean, it sounds like something out of some percent more. At the end of it, though, you come to faith. Well, I realized that God sort of seemed, I don't know how to put it, but seemed to be around a lot. and I started praying a bit and the person who I shared a house with prayed a lot and then at the beginning of my second year at Cambridge I mean it's the classic sinner's prayer of saying I think it was something as eloquent as God I'm not sure that you exist but if you do I would like you to be in charge of my life Very good

42:06Justin Welby: Did you say that out loud on your head

42:09Gyles Brandreth: I said it out loud I was with someone else I felt very embarrassed

42:16Justin Welby: And from that moment That is a kind of coming to faith You're committing yourself

42:21Gyles Brandreth: I was committing myself And I was aware that something had changed And much as on many future occasions I tried to run away in different directions That presence of God wasn't always tangibly present but I couldn't get away from it and when you met Caroline

42:43Justin Welby: she had already come to faith herself had she? so that was something you had in common we had that in common and you quickly decided we are for each other I mean how quickly did you decide we're going to get engaged oh I decided

42:55Gyles Brandreth: oh good heavens I didn't think that but I decided as far as I remember almost instantly and why what was it she had she's very beautiful ah you know why not when you're 20 20 that matters a great deal it matters she was very beautiful she had she has the most lovely smile she has a wonderful sense of humor she is incredibly good in really bad situations she's never afraid to answer back or to say what she thinks she is scrupulously honest she is an inspiration always was always has been so you you got married and you had you tell me about your children we got married in december um 78 do i mean that it could be no 79 79 yeah i was going to say yes i went to that's right i went to france in august 78 to work for an oil company there and um we got married a year later i'm confusing mates and nines but

44:16Justin Welby: quite young 23 i was yes i was a few weeks short of 24 and she was 22 and where are you going to set up home paris that's where i was living oh wow working for an oil company i was working for

44:31Gyles Brandreth: a company called elf acuten in france and um i worked in france for five and a half years and caroline was there for three of them so you both speak french yes oh yes marvelous yes i love

44:45Justin Welby: France. So you thought, well, things are going well. I have now the rock in my life that is my faith. That's good. I have this beautiful girl who's going to be my wife. I've got this quite fun job, quite interesting. Oh, I loved my job. Yeah. So you think I'm going to be a business person? I thought I was going to run a major company. That was the ambition. Burma Oil, here I come. CEO. CEO. Absolutely. Marvellous. And you begin a family quite soon?

45:12Gyles Brandreth: Our first baby came along in november 82 and this was a girl joanna joanna yeah and this is the one you lost the baby you lost she died as a result of a car crash gosh how old in june 83 she was seven months oh and um oh my goodness how did this happen where were where were you it was i we weren't together we were it was the day we were moving back to London Elford sent me back to London and it was on the motorway I don't know 60 miles north of Paris not far from Compiègne and then she ended up in Lille I think in a specialist children's intensive care unit a paediatric intensive care unit, and she died after about four days.

46:06Justin Welby: Oh, I'm so sorry. And you heard you were someone else, you were working.

46:11Gyles Brandreth: I was working, and I rushed up there, and we went through all that, and it was a moment when...

46:29Gyles Brandreth: it was a moment when god seemed extraordinarily close to both of us and we both had a deep sense of the presence of god i remember um caroline remembers almost you know as clear as could be at the time of the crash God saying I am still in charge and I remember at the point where she was in her last minutes embracing her and she was in my arms and such a strong sense of the presence of Jesus Christ to put her into his arms, hand her over. That was a very, I can still see that very, very, very, very clearly.

47:31Justin Welby: Some people who didn't have your faith, faced with such an awful thing, would feel angry and as well as distressed that God could have let a beautiful, innocent, small girl be killed in a road accident of all things.

47:58Justin Welby: I mean, we haven't got time for you to explain the sufferings of the world. No. Even if I understood them. Yeah. I don't have...

48:14Gyles Brandreth: I mean, my short answer is the theological explanations of suffering tend to be pastorally unhelpful, academic. the pastoral explanations too often don't say very much about God and in the little understanding I have of God is that on the cross God himself Jesus Christ suffered and suffering is part of being truly human now that always poses the question why and that's where I can we could spend hours and I could try lots of answers none of which all of which I know the answers to the answers but

49:18Justin Welby: there it was and you were helped by this obviously through this agonizing time and you've had since had lots of other children haven't you

49:27Gyles Brandreth: Five others. Well done. Well, it's...

49:30Justin Welby: No, well, actually...

49:31Gyles Brandreth: I don't really want to go into the biology, but it's not that difficult. Assuming you don't have a particular problem.

49:38Justin Welby: Very good.

49:39Gyles Brandreth: We're very fortunate. We've always been... And I'm so aware that this is, you know, a blessing. It's not been a struggle. And we're very... That is such a... It could be so easily.

49:54Justin Welby: What was the most difficult time in your long and happy marriage?

50:04Gyles Brandreth: I think like a... Oh, golly. The most difficult times together have been, or most testing, challenging times together, have been then, when Joanna died, after Joanna died, when a year later our eldest son was very ill and needed neurosurgery. What the surgeon described as a perfectly simple bit of infant brain plumbing, which if you're not a neurosurgeon sounds quite complicated. That was a time that was very difficult. And then carrying on from there, very challenging when things have been really difficult at work, particularly in the church. When we've run into some of the failings and cruelties of the church, that's been quite difficult.

51:12Justin Welby: Do you pray together? Do you resolve things through prayer?

51:15Gyles Brandreth: together we do pray together whether we resolve things through prayer i think it's both together and apart caroline is is um very thoughtful and prayerful um and we talk about things but i think like a lot of couples we have to make an effort to talk through the most personal things it's not that we don't want to it's just sometimes it's nice to talk about things that are banal rather than profound but sometimes it's a very good thing to talk about things that are profound

52:02Justin Welby: so professionally you're beginning your life working in the oil industry this is going very well how do you end up as archbishop of canterbury how do you become a clergyman well you've got to ask someone else that i have no idea how do you become a clergyman i became a clergyman um

52:18Gyles Brandreth: and i was in the oil industry for 11 years after about nine years we were in church one evening and there was someone giving a very good sermon about how they'd ended up as they were american as a pastor and they'd been offered a job at nasa and then they felt god was saying don't do that lead a church and i was sitting there and it just in my head it's very difficult to explain this it sounds as though one's got a line to god and i don't mean that but i sense god was saying that's what i want you to do so i said this carolines we drove home from church and she was as usual very calm about it and we spent two years going through the process with the church of england which is a pretty strict process.

53:08Justin Welby: But you succeeded.

53:09Gyles Brandreth: Well, yes. Then the final interview I went in, it was a lovely, lovely bishop,

53:16Justin Welby: Bishop of Bradford at the time.

53:18Gyles Brandreth: He was just a lovely man. And he said to me, now, why do you want to get ordained? I said, I don't. Because as the period had gone on, my work was going better and better. And I just thought, I really, oh, golly. I don't want to do this. But I couldn't get away from the sense God was calling. And so when I said, I don't, he said, well, what are you doing here? Which was a reasonable question. And I said, I can't get away from it. So he said, all right, what will you do if we turn you down? I said, go back to London and take my wife out to the best dinner I can afford to celebrate.

54:06Gyles Brandreth: and he didn't turn me down don't trust bishops I thought I'd sealed my fate of course by becoming

54:13Justin Welby: a clergyman you were taking a big cut in salary because I imagine the oil industry you were quite well paid I was very well and new clergymen are notoriously poorly paid yes so did that make a

54:26Gyles Brandreth: difference or did you have some private means from no we had some private means yes we did have some private means uh but over the few years uh we had less and less so it made a very big difference

54:38Justin Welby: when you became you began in noneaton that was your first parish when you were somewhere what was just give me because we can't sadly go through all your career give me the the best

54:48Gyles Brandreth: moments of your time as a parish priest well i was a curate um so you know reporting the vicar still in training, L plates everywhere, I think the best was just the people who were so patient and we were just learning as the bishop said to me, you have spent your life with people who do things, you need to spend time with people who have things done to them and that was just so wise and that was how most of my time before I was a bishop was spent.

55:27Justin Welby: And you became the Bishop of Durham? I did. Goodness. Lucky me. And then the next thing you know is you become Archbishop of Canterbury. Fifteen months later. Good grief. Yes, quite. The grief was the churches. And some people had reservations, I remember at the time.

55:45Gyles Brandreth: A lot of people had reservations and a lot of them might well have been right.

55:50Justin Welby: I've been lucky enough. My first ever television interview in 1970 was with the then Archbishop of Canterbury, Michael Ramsey. Oh, gosh. And I've had conversations. Yes, it was amazing. I've had conversations with every Archbishop of Canterbury. So you're my most recent one. Yes. And until about 20 years ago, 25 years ago, they all seemed to be happy to be Archbishop of Canterbury. The more recent ones have always regarded as almost a punishment meted on them by God. that they had to go through. How was it for you? What did you achieve? What were the best bits and the worst bits? Oh, gosh, I'm...

56:29Gyles Brandreth: Well, there were fun bits. The fun bits, there was so much that was fun and was lovely and was the most amazing privilege. I mean, so many places, as Archbishop, you have to turn up, smile and walk in a straight line and not be drunk and people will be pleased to see you a bit like being an mp i suspect you know you turn up at some constituency do and if you're nice to people and enjoy being and clearly enjoy them enjoy being with them people think oh they're so pleased and that's such fun it's a fairly low

57:10Justin Welby: bar well no it's like being a member of the royal family in a way there you are somebody they recognize who has come and who is interested in them genuinely interested genuinely because the more interested you are the more enjoyable the experience exactly so there's there's a parallel

57:24Gyles Brandreth: there and that was fun the traveling and going to some really difficult horrible places but

57:30Justin Welby: being able to have an impact what a privilege did you enjoy doing the the big state occasions oh yes well who wouldn't what did you did you did you do a royal wedding yes i did harry and megan Very good. Oh, that was an interesting one, because that was at Windsor, wasn't it? It was at St George's. And that was memorable? Enjoyable?

57:49Gyles Brandreth: Well, you're hardly likely to forget it. I agree. I mean, come on. It was hugely exciting, nerve-wracking. Have you got an anecdote from it? Oh, a very embarrassing one. Good. Reception. Everywhere you looked, there was a face one recognised. and this lady came up to me and said i'm slightly deaf particularly in a crowd and said something and i said excuse me and she repeated it and the third time caroline said oprah winfrey and I had no idea. I'd just gone blank and of course I knew who she was but I'd gone blank.

58:41Justin Welby: Oh dear.

58:42Gyles Brandreth: I mean, I wish the floor could swallow me up. It was so embarrassing.

58:45Justin Welby: Never mind the actress and the bishop. This is Oprah Winfrey and the Archbishop. And the Archbishop. So that didn't go very well. Did you do the late Queen's funeral?

58:55Gyles Brandreth: I did indeed. No, the Dean of Westminster Abbey conducted it. conducted it i preached yeah and at the duke of edinburgh did you do that yeah it was at saint george's during covid and i can't remember exactly what i did but i did something there yeah

59:12Justin Welby: but it's interesting because these are major figures uh and yet it's also families who are grieving so do you know you've just taken the words out of my mouth the queen was queen so many

59:26Gyles Brandreth: people thought of her as our queen but at the heart of it was a family who'd lost someone they loved and yet every second of that grieving is observed i mean just they are the most wonderful extraordinary amazing i know there's all kinds of things i'm not going to talk about that i just have such a huge respect for the late queen also is was undoubtedly an even better

1:00:00Justin Welby: christian than you and she had a that's not setting the bad that's really rude to the late queen that's almost treasonous but she had a blessing which probably you don't have in that i think because i spoke to her on a number of occasions about this her faith was so straightforward would exactly and simple not in a patronizing simple way but just in a clear way she knew

1:00:23Gyles Brandreth: and loved god and she knew god knew and loved her and there was no fear of death there was she it was just she set the most outstanding example give me just one little anecdote about

1:00:42Justin Welby: because you must have spent time with the late queen without any indiscretions give me a fun anecdote about the queen because i think she was much more fun than many people realize such a

1:00:51Gyles Brandreth: sense of humor first time i met her after i became archbishop well no second time because i had to go and swear homage but the first time i preached to her and i'd worked you might imagine rather hard on this and we went into the wherever i think it was the jerusalem chamber for lunch i was sitting on her right and she turned to her left to speak to the dean of the abbey and i didn't realize about all this turning stuff at that point you know you do one course with one side and the other course i thought oh my goodness what what did i say she's turned her back on me and then she turned around as the second course she said well archbishop that was a very good sermon so i said oh thank you ma 'am the sweat dripping down my neck and she said so nice because i hadn't told her all about her life because when I was writing a sermon I thought she probably knows about her life she said so nice for a change not to hear one's own obituary that was a classic dry bit of humor from the late queen and so often she was just she was just wonderful how long were you at

1:02:00Justin Welby: before um 12 years 12 is a long long time we don't have time you'll be relieved to know to go into all the problems of women clergy, women bishops, gay within the church, all of that. Though I imagine those are challenges for you because people have such different views and you've got to... And they feel very strongly about it. And you do your best to walk a steady path in between. Yes. All of that was a bit of a nightmare at times.

1:02:30Gyles Brandreth: Not so much in between. you try and walk a path that says to everyone I believe you're my brother or sister in Christ and I value you infinitely but on this we don't entirely agree.

1:02:49Justin Welby: I mean is the Church of England in an okay place? It's been worse. Oh when was it worse?

1:02:58Gyles Brandreth: Civil War. Yeah. Lots of times, I think. I think there have been, you know, stuff happens. It goes up and down. The church is God's creation by an act of the Holy Spirit, the global church. But it's also full of human beings who are sinners. And if you put a whole bunch of sinners together, you don't get saints. You get a whole bunch of sinners.

1:03:26Justin Welby: And when you came a cropper, because you were judged to have not done something, when you should have done something, in terms of safeguarding, that's the essence of it, isn't it?

1:03:42Gyles Brandreth: Yes, a little more complicated than that, but yes.

1:03:45Justin Welby: But basically, you were perceived to have failed to take action.

1:03:49Gyles Brandreth: I perceived not to have given enough priority to a group of victims. That is absolutely correct. And when I resigned, I said I felt that I should take personal and institutional responsibility. This is because I remember reading about it.

1:04:08Justin Welby: So many cases were coming across the desk that you did not give the priority to this one when you had known the man involved personally. exactly and it should have been a red light to you should have said ah i must do something about that particularly because i have a personal relationship well i it's if we go into that

1:04:27Gyles Brandreth: i'm going to sound all defensive and all that kind of thing i think the important thing was that the church failed and i was the senior bishop and i mean in terms of what happened when i heard the initial perception was that we'd not reported it to the police um in fact it had been reported to the police but we found i found we found the emails proving that after the report came out and after i'd resigned i mean it's just one of those things you've been through political resignations and stuff you know what it's like it's always more complicated than it looks but the thing that bears down on me is and bore down on me then is the suffering of the victims and survivors of that case and of many other cases and did you i take that as read did you at the time feel angry and i mean it's now a little bit further back so we can talk about it perhaps

1:05:36Justin Welby: did how did you feel at the time

1:05:42I was hugely shocked.

1:05:51I felt it was very soon, I think it was 11 weeks after I became Archbishop,

1:05:58Gyles Brandreth: that that crossed my desk. Oh. Together with the business with Peter Paul, if you remember. Oh, yes, the bishop. And just so many cases. And it was the bit I hadn't anticipated. I knew there were all kinds of problems with finance, with church attendance, with divisions over women bishops and over sexuality. This was something I was not aware of in its absolute, horrendous, appalling abandonment of the people who should have been at the centre of dealing with safeguarding, that is, those who were abused. And over the previous half century, there were just continual cases where the church's reaction had been to cover up.

1:06:52Gyles Brandreth: So, for instance, the affair with John Smythe, he had left the country in 1981

1:07:08Gyles Brandreth: and in and gone Zimbabwe he left there in 2001 or something like that I've probably got my dates wrong I haven't got my notes in front of me obviously and you know in 1981 I wasn't ordained in I was living in France in when the camp that he was at discovered which I'd been at and knew him there discovered what he was doing and they kept it very much to themselves and I discovered in 2013 and at first it was one survivor and then as inquiries went on they just it got worse and worse and worse and I just would sit there and listen and think, how come this was kept secret all that time? How come that nobody said, what about those who were so horribly ill-treated, abused, and then doubly abused by the church or by the camp trustees not going to the police.

1:08:26Gyles Brandreth: And then triply abused by, particularly after 2013, the Church of England led by the Archbishop of Canterbury, me, not being fast enough in finding a response.

1:08:41Justin Welby: When you decided, I've got to go, I've got to take responsibility, did you discuss it first with Caroline or did you discuss it with God?

1:08:51Gyles Brandreth: I certainly discussed it with both of those. But it was so quick. And so bewildering. In the sense of, I sort of thought, where's this suddenly blown up from? It had blown up in five days. And then, you know, people said you shouldn't have resigned. I was getting emails saying, don't resign. And I was getting emails saying, you're a poisonous excrescence that crept from under a stone, and really what you deserve is to die, but the least that you can do is resign.

1:09:40Gyles Brandreth: It all happened so quickly that I think we were all overwhelmed by it and there wasn't time to sit down and think, okay, what are we going to do?

1:09:50Justin Welby: And this explains something to me, what you're saying now, because I've only met you a few times, and I got the wrong impression of you, which I've now changed during the course of our conversation. I thought this is obviously an intelligent and successful man who's been good as an archbishop in so many ways, but there's something missing. In fact, I said this to Harriet, our producer, before the program. I said there's something missing. He sometimes can't read the room. There's something there. Maybe it's to do with his childhood, not having proper parental relations. He misses something. Because in the immediate aftermath of that, I watched the speech you gave in the House of Lords.

1:10:27Gyles Brandreth: Oh, that was terrible. And I thought, this man is not reading the room.

1:10:31Justin Welby: And now you've explained much more of this to me, the five days, the speed with which the decision was made, the sense of wanting to justify yourself. It didn't work.

1:10:43Gyles Brandreth: Are you hearing what I'm saying? I agree entirely it didn't work I as the Lord's speech I cringe every time I think of it I'm so ashamed of it but because it was not right by the survivors but I just look back and think

1:11:13Gyles Brandreth: I was completely in shock at the time no I didn't read the room and it I'm not sure I still do I mean all I know is that cruelty was doled out to survivors and God's church didn't respond properly over half a century or more in numerous cases. And that when I was imposed,

1:11:48Gyles Brandreth: I didn't respond adequately either.

1:11:56Gyles Brandreth: There's reasons but no excuses. I don't think one can be merciful to oneself on this. I think one has to say, if you're the boss, which I wasn't I mean technically I'm not the boss you know as Archbishop of Canterbury one way to make everyone laugh is to give an order I mean because nobody does anything in response to that but you were the figurehead I was well you're the senior bishop and therefore you know it's the old thing you have to be responsible the buck stops there um how long did it take you to recover from it in the sense of oh I haven't yet oh no I don't know we'll have to wait and see um does it get better yes it does is there an upside to it is there no i mean you talked about redemption

1:12:42Justin Welby: earlier is there a sense of catharsis it's over now i've i've done it i let go i did the right

1:12:47Gyles Brandreth: thing ultimately well i'm not sure i did but you know i'm not sure i yeah i'm not sure i mean you know i'll stand before god as my judge and then i will know it's not for me to be merciful to myself or forgive myself it's for me to commit it into the hands of god seek his forgiveness

1:13:16Gyles Brandreth: and to come to terms with the issues of uh that these sorts of things cause with so many people like you you come across a lot of people like this who've gone through similar events um in one way or another in the public eye and you'll have seen it in politics um that you there's depression there's um guilt there's anger um there's all kinds of emotions have you sought help beyond caroline and god yes i've been seeing a psychotherapist for a considerable period of time And is proving helpful? And a psychiatrist.

1:14:03Justin Welby: And is proving helpful?

1:14:04Gyles Brandreth: Very helpful. Good. Yes, and it's not about saying, oh, it didn't matter, or anything like that, quite the reverse. It's about saying, how does one live with such a failure?

1:14:20Justin Welby: We've come almost to the end. Three quick, quick questions. I want you just to say what comes into your head. You've had this extraordinary rollercoaster life. I mean, quite remarkable. A moment of joy. Just a moment of joy. What comes into your head?

1:14:39Gyles Brandreth: Strange one. Refugee camp, Eastern Congo, back 2016. At the end of walking around the camp, seeing people with a local friend of mine, Congolese, a crowd of women. And the local bishop says, say something to encourage them. And I started by saying, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. My old thing, archbishops say something while they're thinking about what they need to say. And they began to sing one of the songs of the East African revival, just spontaneously. Because Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. That was a moment of joy. That's marvelous. I was...

1:15:30Gyles Brandreth: Very moving. I can just... I thought, that is extraordinary. That's God, not me. And then, what was the second one?

1:15:38Justin Welby: A moment of sadness. And you've told us already about the death of your daughter, which really, there couldn't be anything sadder, except there was that... Yes, go on.

1:15:52Gyles Brandreth: Maybe tell me. If we leave out what we were just talking about, and the last... Of course. the resignation that put that that's in the category all of its own a moment of sadness that same local clergyman in eastern congo who was by then a bishop of goma the first bishop of goma a man of absolute courage and a very close friend getting a series of whatsapps from him as he showed the signs of covid declined and then an hour before he died him sending me a WhatsApp saying, please educate my children. And thinking we've just lost one of our greatest of our thousand bishops.

1:16:42Justin Welby: You mentioned there the sadness of your resignation. When the moment came to resign, who do you tell? Was it the king? You have to get permission. And then you just sent a letter in via the secretary saying, I resign. Well, actually, it was done rather because of the speed, I think. I can't quite remember to be honest. I think it was done verbally.

1:17:04Gyles Brandreth: I think I rang the principal private secretary.

1:17:07Justin Welby: And then what did you do in the evening?

1:17:11Justin Welby: I can't remember. Stunned. You blanked it. Well, good. I'm glad you're on the road to recovery. I've loved our conversation. You have led a remarkable life. tell me what you've learned what life has taught you justin well i'm gonna you know you've

1:17:32Gyles Brandreth: you've got what used to be called abc 105 sarah being 106 very good the abc means archbishop of canterbury 105 so you were the 105th i was 105th sarah's 106th as one of the children said and then we got abcd which archbishop of canterbury is dog and then actually we have a daughter whose name begins with e and so she said well i'm abcde i'm the archbishop of canterbury's daughter x and um so um what have i learned if you're going to have an archbishop of canterbury you're going to get quite a bit of god and this is absolutely true what i've learned is god is good god is faithful.

1:18:16Justin Welby: And I think you're good.

1:18:18Gyles Brandreth: Oh, well, I then, you know, as Abraham Lincoln said, you can fool some of the people all the time.

1:18:24Justin Welby: Well, you've certainly succeeded with me. It's been a most wonderful rosebud. Thank you very much. Well, thank you very much. Indeed.

1:18:31Gyles Brandreth: I've enjoyed it hugely. Charles, it's a great privilege to be on it. Thank you.

1:18:36Justin Welby: My thanks there to Justin Welby for a fascinating conversation. They said childhood lasts a lifetime. What an extraordinary childhood. And I thought Justin was very interesting about his resignation and its effect on him and, of course, his emphasis on thinking of the victims at all times. Anyway, fascinating conversation. So, two archbishops. I think we've had three prime ministers. Oh, Rosebud is the place to come. We're not giving... I tell you what, we're not giving up. is interesting guests for Lent. I've given up bread, rice, pasta and potato for Lent, but that's not to do with faith. It's to do with vanity, trying to lose a little bit of weight.

1:19:19Justin Welby: But anyway, if you are a Christian, I'm sure you will have found that very interesting. If you aren't, I also hope you found it interesting. We don't have any particular adherence to any individual faith. We just, well, love hearing people's stories, very human stories. And that was one. And we also love hearing from people. And people send emails from all over the world. Janine Marshall Wood has sent us one. And I thought, since we had an archbishop on the podcast, we should stick to being in church. And Harriet has found this email from Janine that is a church story. It's Janine's earliest memory.

1:19:59Justin Welby: Here she goes. My earliest memory, writes Janine. Big sister and the next door neighbour are bathing me. it's obviously very small mommy and daddy are out at church across the road they this is big sister and next door neighbor haul me out of the bath hoist me up onto the table and begin to dry me both of them rub at me and after all that rubbing and scrubbing in the bath i've reached the end of my endurance i've simply had enough so seizing an opportunity when they're distracted choosing what to dress me in, I make a dash for freedom. I race across the dirt road and head straight for the open church door.

1:20:40Justin Welby: I run down the aisle and sit myself in all my naked glory beside my mother. Later, I don't understand why mummy regales everyone with the story of how embarrassed she was when I joined in church with no clothes on. Why, I think, is it anything to arouse comment? this memory has remained lodged in my consciousness in part because i heard it repeatedly i recall being mystified that this simple and ordinary behavior of mine running naked into church would be raised to comment worthy status well i don't know that's a wonderful story thank you very much indeed for sharing it with us janine do you think at my local church this sunday i should be running in naked.

1:21:24Justin Welby: Oh, that would wake him up a bit, wouldn't it? Oh, it sounds like one of Ken Dodd's jokes. Oh, what a beautiful day. Beautiful day for pushing a cucumber through the letterbox and saying, hey, the Martians have landed. Anyway, enough nonsense from me. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of Rosebud. If ever you want to write to us and tell us what your early memories might be. I don't think you can quite beat, actually, I don't think anybody can beat Justin Welby's first memory, or the memory of running into church naked. I think that's pretty good going. Whatever you've got, do share it with us.

1:21:58Justin Welby: It's simply hello at rosebudpodcast.com. We love having you with us. If you want to join the Rosebud family, by the way, this is our subscription. We'd love to have you with us. I think it costs something like a five or a month. There's VAT. But anyway, it's quite simple. You go to something called patreon.com, p-a-t-r-e-o-n dot com forward slash rosebud they tell you what we've got to offer which is extra episodes on a sunday so when you've come in the humiliation of appearing in church and nobody noticing you come back home think oh dear how can i distract myself you can listen to one of the bonus episodes that's available when you join the rosebud family and that involves well family secrets that's something that um harriet and i are doing once a month and we take you on a trip down memory lane.

1:22:44Justin Welby: Again, it's Harriet and me together. And then I'm reading you one of my murder mysteries, which some people are finding quite soothing to go to sleep with. Anyway, that's the Rosebud family, available by going to patreon.com forward slash Rosebud. But as ever, regular Rosebud is going to be with you every Tuesday, every Friday, I hope for many years to come. Meanwhile, whatever you've given up for Lent, keep at it. Be good. But whatever you give up for Lent, don't give up, Rosebud. We need you. We love you. Thanks for being there. Cue the music.

1:23:43The End

1:24:06Justin Welby: Rosebud is a Plain Jane production produced by Harriet Jane hosted by me, Giles Brandreth with music by Phil Leppard and recorded this week at the JW Marriott Grosvenor House in London's Park Lane.