Monty Don

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1:31What has happened? Rosebud has been running now for, well, almost three years. We've had hundreds of guests, but today we're getting a guest who was asked for almost the week we began. And ever since I've been saying to Harriet, my producer and friend, have we got him yet? Have we got him yet? And this week she said, we have. We've got him. And when I told my wife who it was, she said, Giles, will you keep your introduction as brief as possible? Just tell them that it's Rosebud, it's a special guest, and let them enjoy who you've got. He's a gardener, but he's so much more than that. My wife said to me, he isn't just a gardener, Giles, gardener's world.

2:12She said, he is a way of life. So that's what he is, and he certainly led quite a life. Would you please sit back, run faster, get out your truck, keep doing whatever you're doing, and enjoy a very special episode of Rosebud with a very special Monty Don. Yes, it's Monty Don on Rosebud.

2:49Before we begin, Monty, two things to say. One, I have to say, you've come looking the part. You've come dressed as Monty Don. It's very funny. You know, someone... I have a friend who I was filming, and he was talking to me, and I said, shh, I'm doing that. He said, oh, I'm sorry. I forgot you were being Monty Don. Are you being Monty Don? I do wear this sort of thing all the time. Oh, really? Yeah, I do. Even on quiet days? On quiet days. I might not always wear a suit. Oh, this is a suit? It is a suit. Oh. But it's, do you know, one of the problems is I have lots of suits. I mean, I've probably, I've lost them.

3:27Are they made for you? Not as quite. They are made to order. But they're not each one individually measured. You know, I send my measurements, they know my measurements, and they make. What, of course, I haven't done is at one point I haven't said, like I should have done, I've said, I've got old and fat. Could you let them trousers out, should be it? But you haven't. well and if you have they've noticed and discreetly made your judgments no i mean i have i don't know about 20 suits like this i've never counted and so they tend to what happens is they mix and match so i think oh that jacket pair of trousers will get a bit worn so i'll put it with another jacket and then they don't quite match because you know you're looking good but i've realized something else we're in the wrong place one where it's a beautiful place i love the Grosvenor House in Park Lane in you know London's Mayfair it's fantastic but one of our most popular episodes was one we did at Sissinghurst oh really yeah Sissinghurst Castle Sissinghurst Gardens with Adam Nicholson and Sarah Raven yeah people loved it and we loved being there I realize now having feasted myself on your book British Gardens we should be at Woolerton Old Hall in Shropshire because I gather from this I think it could be your favourite garden and it's one you've only recently discovered I knew of it as anybody in the gardening world does because it's wonderful I hadn't had a chance to visit it I'm always very hesitant to name a favourite garden because it's rather like naming a favourite piece of music or a favourite book or a favourite child that's a really dangerous one that is dangerous even though quite often one does have a favourite child but they change, they interchange Oh, do they?

5:08Depends who's been nicest to you in the last sort of half an hour. I've never been allowed that. I, interestingly with children, at any one time, you find that either you're getting on better with one child more than another or that you're seeing one child more than another. Yeah. And that means you're sharing more and so there's more. But no, you love them equally. Of course. But you can get on with them differently. That's the answer that Gary Oldman gave me on this podcast, I asked him if he had a favourite wife, because he'd had five. So he explained he'd loved them all intensely at the time, but he was backing the current line at the moment.

5:46Well, I'm afraid I've only had one, but at least we've been married for 43 years and together for 46. What, for you, though, makes it a favourite garden? Well, I think the one element of any garden that I'm looking for, above all else, is charm. and it's it's a deliberately fuzzy word i mean the whole point about charm is you can't quite put your finger on it it's charming people charming places and but when it's there you know it and when it's not there you equally know it so there are lots of gardens all of which will be nameless which are full of resplendent plants brilliant gardeners they know every latin name and has no charm at all.

6:29Oh. Whereas what Willerton Hall is, the minute you walk in, you're bowled over by the charm. And it's brilliantly done. The Jenkins' husband and wife, Leslie and John, have made it from a field. It's their creation. They're a team. It's actually for sale, which is very sad. Oh. I know. Given the result of our conversation, it's sold. what is the percentage we get now well i the trouble is when a garden like willis and odd hall is for sale and it's been made by two people over 45 years it cannot continue it will change because anyway that's the nature of a garden isn't it that it changes and it evolves i feel very relaxed about that actually because the terrible mistake inexperienced gardeners make is to somehow think it's finite, that it's finished.

7:26It's never finished. I used to go, Adam Nicholson is one of my oldest friends. I've known Sarah for as long as Adam has known Sarah. And we used to go to Sissinghouse a lot in the 80s. And I remember being told there, when those marvellous two gardeners were still there, Sybil and... that Vito wouldn't recognise any of the planting, even though sort of it was only about 15 years after her death because it had all been changed but the spirit was entirely hers that they had changed things adapted them when i say any of the planting i mean the in the borders you know to achieve and sustain vita sackville where spirit you have to keep evolving and changing and that's true of every garden ever my garden now is in its 36th year it's changing all the time all the time and and so be it you know that's where it is well before we discover yeah what your garden is now and the good place that you are in because of all the gardening i have to take you right back to the beginning of your story right and i want to ask you monty don well actually i want to check that i've got your date of birth right Is it the 8th of July, 1955?

8:43It is, yes, that's right. And are you formally called Montague Dennis Wyatt Don? I am, yes. And are the Dennis and Wyatt grandparents? Well, therein lies a tale. Dennis is my father. Wyatt is my mother's maiden name. My birth certificate has me as George Montague Don. George is one grandfather. Montague is the other grandfather. George Don, my father's father, was a Victorian figure, born in 1881, incredibly strict and upright. And he said, Montague's a damn fool name. He said, you know, and my parents, for about the only time in their lives, didn't bow under to what he said. Said, OK, we won't call him George.

9:32We'll keep the Montague and get rid of the George. As an act of defiance. Yes. And so then I was christened, christened although i have the birth certificate saying george montague don i was christened montague dennis wyatt don so your real name legal name is george but your christian name my christian name is montague montague and did it become monty pretty quickly no my mother my grandfather was called montague yeah and he was never called monty and my mother who's an only child and adored her father who died a few months before i was born would never let anyone call me Monty in her hearing.

10:07At school I was Monty and for people who didn't know me outside my family I was Monty but anyone in within the family circle I was Monty. My wife always calls me Monty. Oh would it be impertinent then for me to call you Monty now and again? No not at all I have I have Adam for example Nelson always calls me Monty. Oh well I feel if I may say so very very thrilled to be able to call you Montague. And actually, it's interesting because when I started to do television, and you all know all about this, Monty is a much better name for television. And I remember talking to someone about this and saying, it's a slightly, am I Monty or Montague?

10:51Because at home I'm always Montague. And they said, well, just don't make it a problem. And you said, are you being Monty'd on? yes and actually it's a great hope because there are times when i'm monty don and there are times when i'm montague and montague doesn't go on stage doesn't go on television um he's written a couple of books but but only a couple but this rings lots of bells with me because when i put a jumper on yeah i'm i'm giles yes but when i'm dressed normally yes i'm not that same person yeah yeah and what the this person this friend of mine was saying it's as much of a problem as you want it to be.

11:27It doesn't sound like a big problem to me. You know, you're putting on your work clothes and your work name. Well, we're going to begin with you as Montague, because I want to take you back, Montague, to your very, very first real memory, what you actually remember in your head for the first time. I think my first real memory is being dried by my mother after a bath. I don't know how old I was, but she was kneeling on the bathroom floor, and I was standing on her knees and smelling the back of her neck. So I was two, 18 months, small enough, she'd wrap me in a towel. And that's my, I think that's my first proper memory.

12:08And can you still almost smell the back of her neck? Yes, no, no, I can. It's a very distinct memory. And is it, it's a lovely smell, is it? It's a comforting smell? Yes, it is. I mean, Mr. Freud would have a lot to say. I love the smell of my wife's back of her neck. the nape of her neck um it's that it's sort of skin and a touch of of perfume or you know my mother used to wear i mean my mother had five children i was the youngest um or my me and my twin were the youngest and she was incredibly busy and we didn't get much time with her we didn't get a lot of that sort of stuff i don't think she was a bad mother i just think she was My parents were very old school.

12:52But this is why, I mean, so the nape, I love this, because you are clearly a natural trauma, and this is a very good line to take, because most people will choose something more obvious. You are a nape man. Fantastic. I am a nape man, yes. Now, so who was your mother? Give us her full maiden name and what's her background. My mother, rather interestingly, was called Janet Montague Wyatt, because Montague is a family name that goes back quite a long way. Good. She was the only child of an only child. And when I describe my background to people, the two things that you can relate to is the Foresight Saga and E.M.

13:32Forster. If you've read Howard's End, if you've read or watched the Foresight Saga, that was the world I came from. Home counties, professional classes, quite wealthy, although they didn't my mother particularly didn't behave as though she was wealthy but actually she was my grandmother on my father's side was extremely rich but none of that filtered down to me you know there were a family called the keelers who made marmalade and made a fortune a serious fortune from marmalade in the 19th century how wonderful the marmalade kings yeah they were but unfortunately my great-grandfather married twice had lots of different children they all went off and he bought them farms in New Zealand and yachts and all the rest of it and the money in the process they excavated Avebury and bought 50 ,000 acres of National Trust land and things like that which which is great that's how money should be spent but anyway my mother janet wyatt our only child she was i now know very dyslexic she was highly strung incredibly hard working highly strung to find that what does that mean nervous she had a tick probably didn't sleep very much she didn't seem to eat a lot i mean she was tall then tall thin nervy no she wasn't I mean she was very very interactive with the local community so you know she would run with strides and village fates and she was a church warden and it was it was very very centered on not just being in the community but being a pillar of the community and her grandfather had inherited what was in effect a village small village and he had a brother who built a big house and he didn't so he built the house I was bought up in which wasn't a big house and it was a villa really um rather ugly actually but he also had I think about 11 or 12 houses but they weren't worth much then but it meant that you were sort of squire is over-egging it but there was a kind of social responsibility and they built the church and they built the rectory and all that sort of stuff when he died young and a lot got sold an awful lot got sold But what didn't get sold was that sense of being responsible to the village we were brought up in and the community.

16:00Do you remember an actress called Celia Johnson? Yes, absolutely. Very like my mother. Good. I've got it right. I would cast her in the film of your life. Spot on. Good. OK. And that clipped way of speaking. I think also, and I don't think I know very strongly for my mother and my father, the war wasn't just a defining experience. it was the dominant, shattering, overwhelming experience of their lives. I think it took 10 years off their lives. And I think that everything that followed was in its shadow. How did they meet your parents? And who was he? My father, Dennis Don, his mother was Keeler, and his father, George Don, they were both Scottish, very Scottish, but not living in Scotland.

16:48I mean, nothing so Scottish as an ex-Ban. I think they were living in Wimbledon and I don't know how my grandparents met my grandfather was a bit older than granny as I say both very Victorian my father was an only child I mean it very strictly brought up I was writing a book about France and gardens there and that sort of the Somme because of the war gardens and I discovered then and I would have been in my 50s if not 60s that my father had an uncle who was killed on the Somme and my grandmother, who was very close to him, was thrown into deep depression as a result and never touched my father again.

17:31Gosh. And my father was one. Oh. And that obviously shaped, and I remember asking my father what the saddest day of his life was. He said, when my nurse left me, so the person who did touch him who did look after him i mean nurse old-fashioned word for nanny um and his father was incredibly strict his mother became very remote so he was a very self-reliant fierce man he was a very at times frightening man yes he was a boxer army heavyweight champion and light heavyweight champion he was a commander he was at dunkirk blown up a story which again i discovered later he went across with the expeditionary force got separated from his men had spent two days on a motorbike going through enemy lines as the germans were coming in as they were all retreating towards kelly finally joined up on the beaches at Dunkirk being bombed.

18:38This was not from him, by the way. This was all sort of, because he never spoke about the war. They then were told to go into the water. And this I discovered recently was one of his men went berserk and said, we're all dying. I'm going to kill us all. So my father shot him. Gosh. This is my father at 25. Of course, commanding... Yeah. ...probably, possibly, people who are older than him. Yeah. They were tapped to their waist in the water when this happened. God. For sort of five hours. Then they got into a boat and were taken off, which was torpedoed. He shot him to kill him, just because he had to stop this.

19:12Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is war. I mean, anybody who glamorizes war. No. This is the true horror of war. This is the reality. Yeah. And then he was picked up. He was taken off. The boat was torpedoed. He was one of the survivors, picked out the sea. He did tell me that. And I said, what was it like? He said, embarrassing, because it blew my trousers off. taken back to dunkirk where he had to spend another day being bombed so this had all happened in 24 hours then taken back to england at which point he decided to marry my mother because he thought as was so often in war i may not live i you know who knows what's going to happen so they got engaged churchill then formed the commandos and selected people that were fit and he was army boxing champion so went up to Scotland and did training and liked it and was in 6th commando they got married in January 42 obviously they had a long when they could basically honeymooned in more than which we'll pick up on later and I don't think my mother saw him again for four years he was as tough as they come yeah and he was in the jungle in burma he was and it he was incredibly tough he was also incredibly damaged how long do you stay in the army for from beginning to end 20 something so the army was the heart of his life the complete heart of his life did you know because i've read about you describing him as frightening yeah did you know when you first began talking about him as one does in interviews yeah why because now you've now discovered really yeah yeah uh the root cause of this yes did you know that then no i i knew he used to have these terrible depressions when he literally wouldn't speak for two weeks and if you walk past him he'd knock you over to bash into you oh he didn't see you didn't He just wasn't relating to you at all.

21:26Gosh. And I remember once my mother sending me to take the bolt out of the gun because she didn't know what he would do. He could shoot himself, shoot you, shoot anybody. Yeah, yeah. So obviously that colours one's childhood. Yeah, totally. Having said that, he was also incredibly practical. so he would rewire the car or build the garage or you know he could use his hands what's your best and sweetest memory of him don't have many what did you call him i think i called him daddy and he called you montague yes but when we met i went away to boarding school at just seven when we met we shook hands that's partly a generational Yes, it is.

22:14It's a generational thing. He used to write to me once a term. And I was very touched by that because it wasn't something he found easy to do. Whereas my mother used to write to me every week with tons of spelling mistakes. How were they together? Can you remember them together? They fought and argued fiercely. Gosh. Did either of them drink too much? I think my father did. I say I think he made his own beer which was incredibly strong and we all drank ginger beer or beer at mealtimes and there was a rite of passage you started with ginger beer and then when you got to a certain age you were allowed shandy and then when you were about sort of 11 and then when you got to say 13, 14 you could have half a pint of beer and then when you got to sort of 16 you could have a pint of beer a pint of his beer was equivalent to about 4 pints of anything you could buy he was present though during your childhood he was but emotionally absent yeah he didn't play with us ever um that didn't matter at the time because i had lots of brothers and sisters and lots of cousins both my parents were only children and my mother had lots of second and third cousins that we treated like first cousins and they all had houses in the village we could easily be at sort the easter holidays and summer holidays 10 15 of us easily there would be lunch you'd sit down to 10 15 people all related can you remember any intimate conversation with him i can remember him saying before i went to france i don't know if you're allowed to broadcast this with his back to me he said montague if you're going to do any fucking use a johnny that was the most intimate thing he ever said to me well it's very sound advice it was but but it was shocking of course It was very shocking, yeah.

24:02I mean, he was a strong, robust person, but very practical, very pragmatic. Incredibly practical. And I have one image of him, actually, which is very typical. I remember looking out the window, him going to work, and it must have been relatively... I mean, I would have been home from university, probably. And he got in his car, and it wouldn't start. Frosty morning. So I remember him getting out his bike. Didn't come back indoors at all. but it had two punctures. So I remember watching him put the bike away, and he just turned around and walked. And it was eight miles to work. And he walked back that evening.

24:42And didn't tell anyone. Just did it? Yeah. Obviously, they'd been intimate, because there were six of you. Yeah, and I think they were passionate, but I think, like so many war marriages, they were both only children. They had no emotional intelligence at all. none i mean my mother loved little children and was very glad to see us go off to boarding school she was very good at feeding us she was very good at taking us to cricket nets at making sure that we had everything we needed it's a generational thing and it's part we no one showed much emotion do you think either of them had affairs no i'm absolutely certain they didn't so what happiness did each of them find in their lives, do you think?

25:33I think my father, not much. I think on his own, with his dog. He loved dogs. Walking with his dog on his own. And the satisfaction of good work well done, I hope. Yes, he would work in the garden. You'd see him, he would dig. He would work in the garden. He would work in his workshop. He would do things. I think he had satisfactions. I think he was proud of us as children. I remember a telling moment. I used to write poetry as a child, and won poetry competitions and all the rest of it. I remember him saying, it's incredibly good what you've done, incredibly well done, but I've written it out as prose and I think it works better as prose.

26:11And I thought that was a terribly telling moment. And I was 10. And I remember even the 10-year-old me thinking, ah, okay, that's interesting. It is interesting because he may have been right. He absolutely may have been. But, exactly. To your 10-year-old child. Yeah. Yes, I've turned it into prose. It works better that way. Learn from that lad. And your mother, how did she find happiness in her life? She loved being surrounded by children, family, doing good works. I think they were both very devout Christians. We all always went to church. My father became a lay preacher. My mother was a church warden.

26:55It was absolutely part of their lives. So they had community? Completely. Although my father had no friends. He was a loner. Gosh. He was a loner. I think everybody was a little bit wary of him. What age did he eventually die? 67. He got leukaemia. My theory is that the war burnt up their lives. And it literally took 10 years off their lives. he was incredibly fit and strong almost to the end i remember he came to see me at university and it was pouring with rain and he had to get a train and wouldn't get a cab and walked the two miles to the train and then had a sort of three hour had to go to london then change and then go home so he would have been sort of three hours and sopping wet clothes and got pneumonia and he was never the same after that.

27:53He was a shrunken man after that and that was about two years before he got cancer but I think he'd had cancer before it was diagnosed. And so how old were you by then? When he died I was 27. So you were still really too young to actually break through to him? No I never did. I mean he'd need to walk into the room now for you to be able to... Yeah and he never saw me on telly, he never saw me do the jewellery, he never saw a book published. But he would have been happy and proud, wouldn't he? Yeah, no, no, what I'm describing is an incredibly complicated relationship. Troubled, difficult. But his great thing was be honourable, tell the truth, stand up, look life in the eye, don't run away, and work hard.

28:45and I think that all my family, my brothers and I, we've inherited that and I'm really grateful for that. And that came from my parents. Well, sometimes people describe that wartime generation as the best generation because of what they went through, what they endured. He paid a price for it, but the values, he exemplified many of those values. Yes, what he couldn't do, he couldn't do emotion in a sort of reasonable way he could do extreme terrifying anger he could weep at something he could laugh he could get drunk and laugh but he couldn't i didn't seem very often but once or twice um i think that wartime generation particularly the people who've been fighting wanted, just wanted peace and inner peace the garden, the church the whist drive and if you've and if you've been through what they went through, that was the best that life had to offer and it was good and I think you say what made them happy that's what they wanted and actually that's what they found, so maybe they were happier than I thought they were.

30:04Before we get on to the joy of your young life, what was the most frightening moment for you at home as a boy? Oh, God, lots of those. Oh, my father was violent. Oh. To you, your mother? Well, I remember him punching my older brother in the eye, and you're talking about a heavyweight boxer punching somebody in the eye. And once I remember him to me saying, get your hair cut. I was about sort of 16. And I said, no, I'm not going to. He said, OK, I'll pull it out. and started to try and do that. Wow.

30:37What were you thinking in your head? Because you've seen the fathers of other people who weren't quite like that. Well, I know that my friends were quite scared of him too. And I now know that he had post-traumatic stress disorder. There were triggers. He desperately needed help. And I don't think it was personal. I really don't. He would explode. I mean, often things happen. I remember him throwing a cup of coffee over my mother. I remember him smashing a glass of marmalade against the wall. You know, it was violence. It wasn't always violence against people, but there was violence. Eruptions of violence.

31:15So you were always wary of that. Now, what's interesting is that we, to a certain extent, channeled that. You know, I used to play rugby. I boxed. I knew what violence was. sometimes I used to feel when I boxed against people I used to feel you don't know what you're doing you know I know what what what goes on and you don't and I'm not proud of that I'm not saying that's a good thing but I think that goes back to my father and I tell you one of the things I remember very clearly boxing for Cambridge University against the army and my father came the only time he ever came to watch me do anything I remember knocking my guy out I'm looking at my father and saying, here you go.

31:58Well done. That's marvellous. It is. You did it for him. I mean, it's not a good thing to have done. No, but it was marvellous, but also it was saying to him, it was basically a shot across his bows. Oh. Yeah. Just, I can do it too, Dad. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Don't mess with me. Yeah. How long did your mother live? She lived for three, actually more than that, when she died. She died in 89. She lived six years after him, but she was five years younger than him. So she was 68 when she died. So literally, as you say, they lost 10 years through the war. Yeah. And she was pretty ill for the last 15 years of her life.

32:42She had four strokes, three heart attacks, and died of a heart attack. But you remember smelling the name of her neck. Were you close to her? Yes and no. I liked her company I liked cooking with her I liked shopping with her I liked gardening with her doing things with her when it was just me and her there was a part of her that was very like Mrs Thatcher incredibly strong got things done took no nonsense but also knew how to behave I met Mrs Thatcher once and she was utterly charming utterly charming twice actually but my mother had that quality but she was unfulfilled she was a very strong powerful woman who didn't have a country to run had a household to run and a village to run and because she was very dyslexic you know didn't do well at school and didn't go to university although she did train as a speech therapist but I mean typically when she had spoken and lost the use of speech but trained herself to speak again determined you know um and i think back on her i think she did her best the one thing that didn't work with you and i she had absolutely no artistic life at all none no music no literature no art nothing so and that was the center of my life really so i was a bit mrs thatcher like as well yeah yeah did you have a sense of humor though because that was another problem with just that.

34:16Not really, no. No, I mean, things will make her laugh, but not a true sense of humor, no. It, yeah. So what have you got from her? Work ethic. Good. From both of them. I mean, my wife always says I'm a workaholic. I don't think I'm a workaholic. I just like work. I like, you know, I have that thing that work is more fun than fun. work ethic keeping going uh faith do you still have a faith no it's a very tricky one that because i was completely brought up in the church and i love the bible i love the hymns i love the book of common prayer whenever i go to weddings i think why don't i go to church more often i I really like it.

35:06If I lived in the village of Osborne, I definitely would.

35:12But I'm not an active Christian. And I've looked at very closely, and as my generation did, other religions and what have you. I believe in God.

35:30it's like when Carl Jung was asked if he had faith he said I don't have faith but I know and I feel like that and maybe Archbishop Tutu took me out to look at Table Mountain that's a good line to start a conversation with but he simply said look at that look at Table Mountain look at the trees, look at the flowers there's God that's exactly how I feel

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36:36As a little boy, you had a twin sister. Was she your best friend? I still do have a twin sister. Oh, good. Well, only just. She was sort of my best friend. We grew up together completely for the first six years. Barely ever apart. We weren't always in the same class at primary school, but I mean, we slept in the same room, we shared the same bath, we did everything together. What's she called? Alison. And that is a bond that can't be broken. It's there. It just is there. But when I went to boarding school, that bond wasn't broken, but it was pulled apart. and our past spread apart and all the things that i did were none of the things she did so when we came home for holidays we shared the same space and the same we were twins we did things but actually i was much more i you know the things that i loved were sport and books and painting and poetry and acting none of the things that she did so we didn't share the same interests And have you ever felt that bond?

37:45Because at one stage, she becomes very ill. No, she's more than very ill. She had a terrible car crash. Ah, and you get a message about it. Did you sense that it happened before you knew it? Yes, I did. Well, no, actually, that's not true. Tell us the truth, because this is interesting to people. What happened was, is she had a car crash, was terribly injured, and was blinded and made tetraplegic. Good God. And her lungs, a bag of cement burst and coated her lungs, and she was given the last rites and things. How old were you both? 19. And I was given, I got a telegram. Where were you? You were in the south of France.

38:21Gap year time. Yeah, well, yes. I had three years ago. But yes, effectively. And it just said, ring home Alison accident. And I knew. Yeah. I knew that she hadn't fallen off a horse. No. now you could argue in those days you only sent telegrams if it was really serious but I knew and I remember I had to I mean she being hospital lying under her bed

39:02yeah

39:10and how did the story go on what I mean the interesting thing and I'm not at all ashamed of weeping about this it was 50 years ago that I'm

39:31that's where being a twin I think come here of course but anyway i would lie under her bed and talk to her and she was blind and sort of nuts and bolts on her head and all that sort of thing and then go out and weep and then go back and tell her jokes and tell her about the dogs and tell her about the garden and then i used to go to stoke mandeville where she was for a year and and i was working and my mother had a heart attack and she was in hospital and and i was sort of home holding the piece i had to cook for my father who was furious because that was the only way he could express emotion and he couldn't cook and he wouldn't eat anything my mother hadn't cooked so i had to cook and do all that and i'd go and see and actually she made a remarkable recovery i'm an amazing recovery um and had children got married children although she never got the use of one arm and one eye and she had endless operations i mean 50 gosh um and the interesting thing for me now is that i adored my sister i do adore my sister i love her as much as it's possible to love another human being who isn't your partner in life but we don't share very much how interesting it's emotional which is why talking about that sort of thing immediately becomes emotional because that's all there is.

40:50There is this deep well of slightly inarticulate emotion. And there is no day-to-day sharing of life. And I feel sad about that. I feel sorry about that. But I accept it. It's life. And does she, do you think, feel the same way? Have you chatted about it with her? I think she feels hurt. Oh. I think she feels hurt that we don't share more. I mean, one of the things, if you're a twin, particularly with an opposite-sex twin, when you find a life partner, when you get married... Oh, you're leaving them. You're leaving them. And I realise that my relationship with Sarah is strongly influenced by being a twin.

41:41Gosh. because it's an emotional intimacy that you've had from birth. Wow. So you probably are an easier husband. Well, Sarah would not say that. But you might be, in the sense you've understood what being with a girl full-time is like. Yes, yes. Because from birth you shared a room with one. Yes, yes. I, from day one, I mean, literally day one, actually, when she was married to someone else, wanted just to be with her. Sarah doesn't always want to be with me. I mean, Sarah is not a twin. So we've had to work that out. It's not a great problem. But, you know, I wanted to garden with her. I wanted to cook with her.

42:22I wanted to eat with her. I wanted to go on holiday with her. I wanted to visit gardens with her. I wanted to, you know, you share rooms, you share everything. Because that, to me, was normal. But with that one extra element, because it's not just a love match and a friendship match, it's also like a blood match. you feel it's we're everything to each other now that can be very suffocating for someone who hasn't grown up with them so what age were you when you met Sarah? it would have been I would have been 22 22, so by then your sister was on a road to recovery no, it was a long road it was a very long road so what age was she when she got married?

43:01quite young 27, 28 so a few years later so that resolved, I mean that was brilliant her getting married and her marriage was good and her husband died a few years ago he was quite a lot older than her um she had children she's got children she's got grandchildren she has a life no no she has nephews nieces yes absolutely yeah all that yeah yeah well done and you see her sometimes now yes not as much as i should um because she's not very mobile i mean she's on a zimmer frame now and um she lived abroad quite a lot and then lived in the north of scotland and So only recently, after her husband died, has moved nearer.

43:38So one of the things I'm sure has been said to you on this podcast over and over again, the main issue with linking family and friends is geography. If you don't physically see people, you're not building and evolving a relationship. And one of the dangers I find with friends as with family is if you don't keep in touch enough, everything is about the past. Because that's the connection you have. You don't have time to build, to work on the relationship. And as I've got older and older, I notice that more and more. On the other hand, I notice that my very old friends, the people I went to school with, the people I grew up with, I am so glad that I still see them and I still know them.

44:25It gives me huge pleasure. With your sister, just to finish this thing about twins, when you were ill, you had a form of cancer? Yeah. How long ago was that? I was 10. 10? Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So, but I didn't know it. What happened was, this is very, of course, psychiatrists say, that's interesting, you just drop that in, is that I was playing football at school, fell, and hurt my elbow. It was very, very painful. So, next day, I was at boarding school, they took me to the hospital in Reading, I had an x-ray. and I very clearly remember the day after that matron saying you've been really difficult you've been you know thanks to you we've got to go back because you must have moved during the x-ray and it was until only about five years ago I suddenly twigged what she was saying they'd found something in the x-ray so rather than telling me that she may pretended that I had moved and blurred the x-ray and what they'd found was a tumor and it was just before christmas they let me have christmas so immediately after christmas i went into the battle hospital in reading and i remember i've got a scar from there to there they took the bone out and scraped the marrow out it was marrow cancer and um luckily it hadn't spread what they said is is if it had been six months later it may have been gone into the rest of my body and that wouldn't have been very good and i had radiotherapy for a year amazing i had children i mean in those days you know we didn't know about that but i do remember every time you had an x-ray you were behind lead and everybody left the room and you were bombarded with x-rays and i loved that radiotherapy because and this goes back to your earlier questions my mother my mother would collect me from school and I'd have the day with her and I think that's part of just being in a big family to get your mother to yourself was a rare thing did your sister was she conscious when you were I don't think I was I don't think absolutely not I mean I think she good I knew it was something serious because my mother came to visit me every day and your father possibly once yes absolutely absolutely and i was off literally off games for two terms i think and no more was said of it really and has it affected the rest of your life have you had one there was one instance which was psychological rather than anything else when i went to malvern which was the school i went to which i hated uh i'd been there about three weeks and i had these terrible pains all over my body which were probably growing pains and I went to the doctor and said I know I absolutely know I've got cancer and it's in my body and I don't know what to do and I said I know it because I've had cancer you know I've had this thing and you can look at my records and he said don't be so ridiculous pull yourself together and that was one of the sort of most the loneliest moments of my life because I had nowhere to turn to as a strange school i was being teased about my name monty i i didn't know who did you know i couldn't talk to anyone it was no it was yes you certainly couldn't talk to your father you could have written to your mother i could have done and in fact what happened was i also unbeknown to me had hepatitis and with a few weeks later i was sent home and i then spent the rest of that first term at home mill i think i talked to i think i mentioned it to my parents and they thought i'd rather agree with the doctor well they would given the way you describe them to us yes why didn't you like more than you've been happier at your did you go to a prep school i went to a prep school um with a glorious name called big shot oh um in workingham i liked it i liked it and you weren't there were no masters molesting you it was all yes there were masters who wanted to tried to molested and then we're not of course you were i had one master who was incredibly good brilliant master who used to like to wrestle us um which of course now would not be work but i don't remember anything more he he used to take me aside and comb my hair which again would not go that well it's not encouraged nowadays but he was wonderful we did plays poetry drama and i absolutely am grateful to that.

49:01I didn't mind my hair being combed.

49:05We played massive sport, we did lots of plays, I rather loved it. Why then, having got used to being at a boarding school? It wasn't a boarding school I minded at all. Ah, the prep school was a day school. No, it was a boarding school. I never minded being a boarder. So, you were happy at your prep school, but then go to Malvern, which is another boarding school. Another boarding school. It wasn't the boarding aspect that bothered me at all. What was it? It was, it felt like a very sort of philistine place. In those days, it didn't value the things that I, you know, the artistic side of things.

49:37It felt, and also my housemaster loathed me and I loathed him, and all my life, because I was expelled from my little primary school before I went to boarding school. Why? For being just impossible to deal with, too naughty. Oh, and were you naughty? Yeah, I was, yeah. I was the child that people were told not to play with. Have you worked out why you were naughty? I think I was just incredibly sort of full of life, full of beans. And I was just too much to handle for people. And also, I really rebelled against authority all my life. So when I got to Malvern and found authority, and also it was full of things like you can only have one button done up of this, and all that, and you had to fag and so on and so forth.

50:30I'm not the right person for that. The more you push me, the more I'll push back. So you're almost grateful to these illnesses for sending you back home. Yeah, and also the thing was, I didn't want that. I didn't want to fight the system. The system wanted to fight me. If they had said, look, we've got this wonderful art room and you can learn a musical instrument, and, you know, I was a good cricketer, I liked sport. if they had, just as they did at prep school, if they'd metaphorically combed my hair, I think I could have enjoyed it. Were you during this period having what we would now call breakdowns?

51:04No. Well, was I? Lows that we would know? No, I don't think... I don't remember, is the answer. I first remember feeling profoundly out of sorts and black. I would have been about 17. I didn't like my teenage years. I didn't like the years from 14 to 18. So did you have any crushes? I had crushes, but I didn't have girlfriends. Well, actually, that's not quite true. That's a bit unfair. I was incredibly shy and incompetent and unconfident with girls. But I had crushes and I lusted and I was good at being friends with girls. Because of your sister. And I was very bad at making the next move. So I would have friends that I had a crush on and they would think I was just their friend.

52:07Oh, what a shame. I know. I look back at it. But also that next move is so difficult because sometimes if you get it wrong, the whole thing's ruined. Exactly, exactly that. So you were cautious. Yeah, yeah. So when did you feel... My first proper girlfriend, I was... I first had girlfriends and sort of kissed at dances and that sort of thing, I guess from 16 onwards. But my first proper girlfriend, I think I would have been 18. Yeah. When did you first say, I love you to someone? Was that that? When I was 18, yes. But I think I'd been in love for about two years before that. And I did love her, actually.

52:41I really did. And we had a good relationship. Actually, that relationship didn't survive my sister's accident. And what was interesting was that it took all my emotion, all my attention to deal with that. There was none spare. I was thinking about that the other day. I loved her, and she was lovely, and probably still is lovely. And I hope someone is loving her well. but I didn't have room for it. Well, that's life. Yeah, it is life. And then Sarah, though, has been the love of your life. Yes, yes. Can you remember the first encounter? I remember seeing across the crowd. Absolutely. I can describe that.

53:22I rode in a boat at Cambridge for my college, not the university. And I was seven and the eight, I won't say his name, but he had been a junior Olympic oarsman and was very good. It was great. I loved rowing and he was incredibly good. So it was good working with someone who was good. And after a couple of weeks of this, he said, oh, my wife is picking me up because we rowed before breakfast. Come and meet my wife. She's called Sarah. And I remember it was a sort of April morning. There was cherry blossom behind. And Sarah was down with an upturned boat and said hello. And she showed me a leaf.

53:58She said, look how beautiful that fallen leaf is. And I fell in love just there and then. Absolutely. And I remember thinking, oh, bugger, just my now. Just marriage. Yeah. So for the next year, at least, I mean, I can't... They were friends who I almost didn't want to see because it was too complicated for me. Because he was an incredibly sort of sociable, jovial chap. Do come to dinner, you know. Gosh. Let's go to the theatre. And all that sort of thing. And did you accept some of these invitations? Yes, I did. And you went and you pined and you lusted and you yearned. Well, yeah, I actually, there was a good side to it because Sarah and I from day one hit it off.

54:44We liked each other. We had things to talk about. I mean, one of the things about our early years, we never stopped talking because everything was always so interesting. And I remember when we finally eloped, spending almost a week in bed chatting. and anyway things came to a head well if you were lope they certainly came to a head I mean it was she didn't have any children she got married at 19 I say oh fine we accept it it was a very young marriage and I don't think it would have worked out anyway I mean I think the marriage was genuine and did you subsequently marry somebody else and had children Good, that story ends happily elsewhere.

55:33We can bark that. Although it was not an amicable divorce. Well, because she ran off with me. Yeah, you're a bounder. You were a bounder. I was a bounder, but we were genuinely in love. And also, to be fair to Sarah, she would never have had an affair. She would never have betrayed her husband. Her marriage was over the minute we got together. You mean the moment of the leaf? No, not the leaf. the marriage was over the minute that we consummated our relationship she knew by doing so she didn't have to marry you yes fine uh did you feel i mean we can talk about this because the story ends so happily yeah did you feel at the time terribly guilty and did you think about your parents and their view of this kind of behavior yes and no i think that when you are deeply in love with someone you will sacrifice the world for them you'll sacrifice your family your past your burn every bridge going and people do so on that level I didn't worry about anybody I didn't even worry about him although actually I liked him we never spoke again I mean we you know we didn't end that much I felt very I felt guilty but not so guilty that I didn't want to do it and I knew that we I had met the love of my life and I hoped she had met the love of her life and so somehow that made it better if not right and what have you still got all these years later assuming she still is the love of your life yes of course she is completely I mean marriage has evolved is we there's a So Sarah and her then husband went to live in New Guinea, which is why they got married, because he was going to go to New Guinea for three years.

57:29And they had to, yeah. Yeah. And Sarah learned to speak Pidgin English to get around. And I remember her telling me earlier on that there is a Pidgin English term, which is Wontok, W-N-T-O-K. And actually, it's a corruption of one talk. And because in the highlands of New Guinea, there are thousands of language. so if you meet someone who speaks the same language you can talk to them and what it obviously has come to mean is someone who speaks your language and I've always felt with Sarah is we have one talk we speak the same language we know what we mean and we've built this life together and we have children and we have grandchildren I have three children and we have grandchildren and we've had houses we have a business we have made gardens as Sarah always says Yes, you know, when we are feeling out of sorts with each other, it would be too complicated to unravel this now.

58:26It's the life we have together is the one we have together. You'd better go on with it. Exactly. My wife does not give me that satisfaction. I'm saying, oh, we're going to have our diamond wedding soon. She said, well, that's what you think. Just wait and see. Yes.

58:49Yay! Feliz viaje, Rafa! Sopla, sopla!

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59:53you leave cambridge without taking a degree no i did take a degree oh good i'm so sorry no what happened was is there's an there's a grain a tiny grain of truth in that i took a degree but i couldn't be awarded my degree until i paid my bar bill there is an arcane cambridge law is that you can't leave owing money. Quite right. And I had a buttery bill of£187. Quite a lot of money. It's a huge cent money. Going back to whenever it was. It's about sort of£2 ,000 now. Wow. At least. And it was nearly all Jemison's whiskey, which I used to buy by the bottle. But also, you know, you'd have dinner and you'd buy everybody a drink and one thing like that.

1:00:35I paid it back at£10 a week. It took me 19 weeks to pay it back. and then they sent me a piece of paper. But I was awarded my degree. Good. Congratulations. Well done. And I can say, I'm proud to say, this summer I'm being made an honorary fellow of Magdalen. Oh. So, I am proud of that. Magdalen, Cambridge. Yeah. Well done you. Yeah. Now, we're going to talk about gardens in a moment. Okay. But your first business is in jewellery. Yeah. And what I find intriguing about it is there are various parallels in your story to my story in the 1980s i had a business that failed yeah and the failing of that business sometimes still not keeps me awake at night but that moment was a very because i you i lost my money but i lost other people's money and i felt it was a great sense of failure just in a nutshell describe your business and why it failed the business was essentially costume jewelry uh when we started it which is sort of 1981 80 you either had proper jewelry or you had rather tacky very cheap sort of made in india jewelry and there was nothing in between and sarah had studied at the sir john cass as a jeweler silversmithing but that world was rather sort of earnest and we sort of fell into the niche of do Sarah wanted to do it I had started a PhD at the London School of Economics and dropped out very early because I realized it was a mistake and was thrown into a deep depression didn't get out of bed for about six weeks oh proper serious yeah yeah clinical and I suddenly thought you've got to get a grip you've just got to do something about this and Sarah said there is a workshop free in old street that I'd like to use so I said I'll come with you we'll do it together because I didn't know what I was going to do you know I wanted to write I couldn't when you're depressed you can't do anything you can't write you can't do it there's nothing so I said okay I'll come with you I found it fascinating completely fascinating so and it was if you remember in the early 80s it was actually a very exciting time it was i mean people talk about the enterprise it was a great time to start something there were lots of young people we thought we could do it exactly exactly and it was really exciting for about four or five years and i learned absolutely on the job you know what to do and i found i had good skills at selling I could design I could draw Sarah was really good I you know I enjoyed the whole set up and we were working we did jewellery for operas we did jewellery for films we did jewellery for pop stars we did record covers we had a shop in Beach and Place I remember doing jewellery Beach and Place?

1:03:31we did jewellery with Alton John we did jewellery for Princess Diana we did lots you know and it was we sold all over America and Japan and we showed in Milan and New York and what went wrong? because we had no capital and we kept borrowing to finance our growth and if you remember i do remember the interest rates yeah people don't remember it was a nightmare yeah and within about six months we had gone from being cock of the walk to being a feather duster and the thing that i think is really interesting i often say this to people losing a business is deeply humiliating I mean it is shameful and my parents would have been appalled I felt utterly utterly ashamed for about three or four years a little longer 10 years I worked I paid back every penny to everybody I sold the business for peanuts I had a house in London lease of two flats big house in the country.

1:04:32I sold our furniture. I sold the furniture I inherited from my parents. I sold everything. And we had nothing. And I worked. I just worked and took anything. I was even mowing lawns. I'd write an article and then go mow the lawn for 10 quid for somebody. I wrote for every newspaper. I started to do some television, said yes to everything. And we paid it all back. But that sense of shame and humiliation never really goes away. I'm with you there all the way but well well done can I just briefly before we get on to the gardens because I think they in a way are a salvation and they are where you have found the enchanted place that to me you seem to be in now um can we just explore these the the lows the depression when you were in bed for six weeks obviously we can see roots of this in your chart what you described to us but did you how have you come through all that did you take therapy did you Yeah, I've had therapy, which I found quite helpful, but the person who I found helpful moved, and then the next person I didn't find helpful at all.

1:05:39So I stopped that. I took Prozac for seven years. And that's a mood booster, basically, is it? It's a serotonin booster. And it worked wonderfully well for about a year. I'll never forget the moment when, because Sarah said to me, we'd lost everything, we were living in a rented place she came to me one day and said look either you move out or I'm taking the children and moving out I'm with you I love you, I'm not leaving you but we can't go on living with you like this, and of course I was slightly unaware, I was angry, I was difficult I was not somebody you wanted to live with, and I said well that would kill me that can't happen, so therefore well, okay, I'll go and see a doctor.

1:06:28That's all she wanted me to do, go and see someone. I remember going to the doctor and saying, my knee hurts.

1:06:38And he said, look, it's fine. Is there anything else? Anyway, he put me onto Prozac. And after about 10 days, I remember washing up the kitchen sink and noticing how beautiful the light was on the leaves in the hedge opposite. and I suddenly feel I don't feel sad I don't I feel okay and for about six months I felt like I was the way I described it is I was on holiday in a nice seaside town and the sun was shining wonderful well that's all we want in life isn't it and that goes and then you keep taking this drug because you don't want to go back but after years i suddenly thought i have no idea how i feel because i feel normal is it because the drug is it because the drug is actually not doing anything at all so you stopped your own account i went to the doctor i said i want to come off and you it takes about six months you wean yourself off and i've never been back and do you now have that thing because this is partly sad this thing yes absolutely do you have lights that help for years as I had a light box and that's important actually the biggest help in my life is about 19 years ago BBC offered me a series called around the world in 80 gardens and for the first time in my life I spent most of the winter in the southern hemisphere Australia South America India and you take Sarah on these trips oh this is a time off for her well done and I didn't feel a twinge of anything other than professional engagement.

1:08:19I know... Sarah says, and I think she's right, she says fame really suits you.

1:08:30And if I'm honest, I think there's an element of truth in that. If you're somebody who likes being on stage, being applauded is good for your health. I'll tell you what it is. It's sunshine. Yes, it is. You get sunshine. So you can have sunshine when you go to the Southern Hemisphere, but also when you walk on because i know you're doing 10 or more dates promoting this book yeah when there are 2 000 people a time it's monte don we love him and doesn't he look good in that suit and it's him no i mean you're you it is right you're telling the truth it's and i feel ashamed about that no don't enjoy it well i think also the other thing is that i now know there are basic things you have to do if you know you have a propensity to this you must get up in the morning you must put on clean clothes and shave and wash and feed the dog and you must go outside even if it's raining or it's gloomy when you come back from new zealand go for a walk do something is the dog key as well absolutely absolutely so as well as a sarah in our lives i've never ever not had a dog i had a dog all the time at cambridge i had a dog to prioritize the dog is marginally more important than sarah sarah is just wildly more important you know is the i have always had a dog and often more than one did your father have a dog always fine so that was his companion always when he went out yeah i know endless walks yes with the pipe and the dog yeah yeah that yeah absolutely and i think he related better to the dogs than he did to the children yeah well uh we're reaching the end now and i've i've really enjoyed our conversation and i'm going to go i'm in many of the gardens in this glorious book it really is wonderful and there's a sort of hunky picture of you on the cover for those who are liking you for the wrong reasons um what i love about what you've told me about this book is that these are the gardens that charmed you yes i think that always for me humanity wins out and that gardens are the stories of people and they've used plants to make their story and in the end stories are what we live by stories are everything we're going to come to an end now and i will ask you three quick questions one is a moment of joy in your life a moment of joy particularly maybe from the early years but just when i say joy what suddenly springs into your head sun streaming through the window when I open my eyes.

1:11:04Lovely. You're a sunshine person. Yeah. Now we have to have a moment of sadness. Quite a few of those. Well, you've witnessed one today.

1:11:19Lots. Lots and lots. Is sadness part of the story? I think one of the things about being a gardener that I think is interesting is you do see seasons you see things the way you talked earlier about it being Sissinghurst it's not the garden that Vita Seck for West planted but her spirit is still there I think so you can change the planting as years go by but the essence is the same is happiness and sadness part and parcel I think I think the secret of being a good gardener and of living a good life is accepting change and gardens with gardens you have no choice they change all the time they change for the seasons they change with growth they change all the weather they change with age and if you can be part of that change it's enriching and exciting and rewarding if you try and resist it you come and stuck and I think gardens tell that story very well indeed but it means loss as well as gain and I can be you know I've had people I've loved that have died I've had dogs I love that have died I um you know my nephew was killed at the age of 21 um friends of mine have just lost a son at 20, it's cruel and deeply sad.

1:12:53And I think I look back on my childhood, there wasn't bad things in it. I'm sorry. I'm sorry for that child. But I've had huge joy as well. And I accept that. I think the roots of my depression are a kind of grief. I don't feel sad. I feel really deeply, deeply grieving.

1:13:21And I don't know where that comes from. So I try to avoid it. I try and be positive. And I know, I'm sure, that my rather sort of obsessive work is to hold things away, you know, to keep moving. Don't stand still, keep moving. But I think you have to, by the time you reach my age, you have to accept who you are you have to accept your lot and enjoy it and you know the joy of grandchildren the joy of seeing your children do well the joy also of seeing your children do not so well but come through you know i think i think that coming through is one of the great successes of life so is that your what you've learned in life to keep coming through.

1:14:10What is life, this very extraordinary, fascinating life that you've shared with us, what has it taught you? Two things, really. One, don't give up. Even if it seems hopeless, keep going. It may well not turn out like you meant it to or wanted it to, but it will turn out. and two, try and be kind. You've been so kind. I'm going to cry now. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Montedon, thank you very much. Now we're both going to cry.

1:14:53Well, my thanks there to the amazing Montedon. I'm going away now to spend the weekend mulching my roses. I'm creating a special rosebud garden at home there'll be more of this in the months to come I'll tell you much more about it but meanwhile oh my friend Montague Don I really feel that was rather special we've got some very special people coming up on Rosebud I'm particularly excited because I love the cinema we've got coming on to Rosebud a film director who, well, he's directed more films that I've enjoyed in my lifetime than any other film director alive. That's, by the way, just teasing that up for a week or two.

1:15:43We love hearing from people. If you have comments that you want to make about anything, obviously, we love it if you follow us and if you give us a good review, that's nice. Check us out on YouTube, all these things. If you want to join the Rosebud family, that's a very easy thing to do. you go to www.patreon.com forward slash rosebud tells you all about it but if you want to write to us you can either send us a letter care of Grosvenor House, London W1 or you can email us the email address is quite simply hello at rosebudpodcast.com Ruth Tweedy has been in touch hello, she says I'm an avid follower of yours living in Madrid you bring back so many memories of boarding school that I thought I'd forgotten.

1:16:28One of my immediate memories is the shock as a ten-year-old starting in a convent to be told that I had to wear blackouts in the gym class. Having lived a carefree existence with part of my life in Singapore and Hong Kong and wearing pretty summery dresses, what were blackouts? Basically, a big pair of knickers to cover up the little white knickers we usually wore. To hide what? It also makes me laugh when I think back to ten-year-old Ruth, that's me at ten, who, along with her classmates, was told on a daily basis by the sisters that we were the cream of the nation. To this day, I still wonder what that meant.

1:17:11Double cream? Single cream? Rhoda's clotted cream? Thank God we've all moved on. And although I don't wear a thong, I certainly don't wear blackouts. Anyway, I've diverged from why I'm writing to you. As an amateur piano player at 65, I would love to play your cue the music piece. Is there any chance of access to a piano script? Preferably a simplified version. My sister and I plan to have tea one day at the Grosvenor house, and wouldn't it be just wonderful to bump into you both, Harriet and Giles? Well, Ruth, it would be wonderful for me and Harriet to bump into you, and we would get Igor, who plays the piano here in the park room, to play our Rosebud piece for you.

1:17:56If you like our music, do join the Rosebud family because we have a special episode every Sunday and Phil Leppard has written the most wonderful arrangement of his original Rosebud tune that people are loving and it's for Rosebud family members and I think it's really charming. Let me just give you a little flavour of it.

1:18:38Isn't that lovely? That is the new Rosebud Family music, which we play every Sunday afternoon to introduce the Rosebud Family episode. If you want to join us in the family, we'd love to have you here all you do is get in touch with us www.patreon.com forward slash rosebud and then it tells you what to do wonderful a thong just a thong at twilight and the idea of the blackouts is amusing for years i may have mentioned this before my three sisters who went to Cheltenham Ladies College we used their green knickers which were made of serge, a dark green we used them around the house as dusters so I always think of green girls' knickers as dusters I've never heard of the blackouts before anyway, that's enough knicker talk I think that's enough for today I hope you enjoyed Montague Dawn as much as I did I hope you'll join us next time on Rosebud.

1:19:44The privilege is ours for having you there. Thanks for listening. I'm Giles Brandreth. This is a Plain Jane Media production produced by Harriet Jane, presented by me, Giles Brandreth. Bye now. Oh, and cue the music.

1:20:14Thank you.

1:20:42Thank you.

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