More Rosebud - Akshata Murty

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1:57This is More Rosebud. I'm Giles Brandreth. It's the 23rd of June, 2026. More Rosebud with, of course, more content because I've got with me my friend and producer, Harriet Jane. How are you today, Harriet? Yes, I'm very well, Giles. I'm glad you are. I say, more Rosebud, but no more Prime Minister. I know. Because yesterday, and I'm saying this because we know that 20 % of our audience are international. Only about 80 % of our audience are in the UK when we make the podcast. So they may not have been following what's been happening in the UK if you're around the world. In a nutshell, what happened about 24 hours ago was that the Prime Minister, Sir Keir Starmer, resigned as leader of the Labour Party.

2:46He is still prime minister and will remain prime minister until a new Labour Party leader is chosen. Just to explain to people internationally how this works, we have a parliamentary democracy, and essentially the largest party is invited to form the government of the day, and the leader of that party becomes the prime minister. In the case of Keir Starmer, he was elected two years ago with a huge majority and became the prime minister. but there were not very good local election results in fact very bad ones for his party a couple of weeks ago and his backbench members of parliament and some members of his government even members of his cabinet were getting restless feeling he wasn't delivering the goods he wasn't the leader that they wanted and decided he had to go he didn't like this very much as you can understand and in many ways he has some justification in not liking it because he felt he was doing his best.

3:42He didn't break the law. He's not made any mistakes that would actually oblige him to step down. But we now have, or about to have, our seventh prime minister in 10 years. And Keir Starmer, despite winning this colossal victory only two years ago, is out. Now, what's your thinking about that? You, as a member of the public. Yeah, I'm going to speak as a member of the public because I'm definitely not an expert. Although we did meet Keir Starmer, didn't we, Giles? And so then listeners can hear him on Rosebud. And when we met him, I found him to be human, likeable. And indeed, somebody who interviewed me recently from the Sunday Times said that that interview that we did with Keir Starmer explains everything.

4:31Yeah, yeah. His relationship with his parents, his resentment of his father's closeness to his mother, all of that came through. and also his desire to be liked, his need to be liked. And I felt that he was really looking after his family from a young age almost, quite a responsible person that took things quite seriously. And I think you see that in him. You know, he is a serious person. But what's my thinking is, I think it's almost impossible to be prime minister now. You know, I mean, it's just impossible to stay in the job. It's really hard to do the job. And I don't know why that is. I think it's social media.

5:17I think it's the news cycle. It's probably all the podcasts just going on about politics all day long. And I think Keir Starmer really struggled to decide what he wanted to say and stick to it. That was a major problem. The flip-flopping, the U-turns and all of that. And you just get buffeted around in a way that, you know, someone like Mrs. You know, the sort of people we look back at as being people that were in the job for a long time and really had staying power and authority. They they weren't flip flopping and they were possibly ignoring what the rumblings were on the back benches or the rumblings in the press.

5:56I've told you, haven't I? Steaming on. Exactly. I've told you about the little note that Tony Blair keeps in his wallet. Yes, you have. The three words, stay standing up, that he was given by the security people when he became prime minister, advised him to make himself visible so they could rescue him if he was caught up in an attack of any kind. And he kept hold of it because he had observed that if you stay standing up, eventually the storm usually blows over you. Yes. And so you don't fold. And of course, he managed 10 years as prime minister. Yeah. And Margaret Thatcher, 10 years as prime minister.

6:28John Major, seven years. David Cameron, six years. No, that is good advice, actually. But I have to say, I think it's become very, very difficult to ignore because the problem with social media and the way that we have such access to politicians now and they hear so quickly what the Vox Populi is saying. I think it's very hard to ignore it. You know, people can sort of call for suddenly there's a sort of national outrage over something in the space of an afternoon and it all goes a bit haywire. The Vox Populi changed their views and quite quickly. I mean, the Vox Pop people, they're an absolute nightmare, Giles.

7:04If it was me, I'd just tell them all to go away. Well, in 1999, two years after Tony Blair's triumphant 1997 victory, he had terrible local election results, but stood firm, kept going. His results were quite as bad as the ones that Keir Starmer had only a few weeks ago, but he kept going. I'll tell you what my reservation about the present situation is this. you may not think Keir Starmer has been a great prime minister you may not like his policies but you can't deny that he was elected his party won all those seats he was the leader of the party he managed to bring the Labour Party back from its times with Jeremy Corbyn one of its worst results to one of its best results that's not a bad achievement there's only 33 % of course of the people really who actually voted who turned out and voted yes I know but nonetheless it was a good result and now he's out and it looks as if we're going to get somebody that nobody knows much about.

8:03Do you know much about Andy Burnham? I know he wears black t-shirt, black trousers and has long eyelashes. But no, I don't really. But isn't he planning an election? No, we may be getting a coronation. There was the possibility of there being a contest with other people like Wes Streeting, who we've also had on Rosebud. But Wes Streeting is now rode in behind Andy Burnham. speculation being that he's promised him rather a plum job maybe being chancellor of the exchequer maybe being defense secretary something that might be rather and so anyway so west streeting is not going to contest andy burnham so andy burnham could get in so somebody who wasn't even a member of parliament last week could be our next prime minister we know nothing about him he may be wonderful and we're told he has all this charisma we haven't seen much of it yet but but if his people are listening we want to invite him onto rosebud oh absolutely and i'm going to get onto that right away yeah because the one thing you do do with rosebud and we found this with all the political people we've had kemi betenock geir starmer west streeting if you talk to them for quite a while and particularly about their childhoods you do get to know them a little bit more i think than you do from just a you know quick interview on a news program oh absolutely Did you watch his resignation speech?

9:22I did. Well, I saw a bit of it, yeah. And were you touched as many people were? Yes, I was. I mean, he had tears in his eyes. You'd be pretty hard-hearted not to feel sorry for him. I was watching it with journalists at the programme this morning, and I was interested to see that quite a few of them had tears in their eyes as well. Did they? Particularly towards the end, because he concluded his speech by saying, and I'm quoting here, when I leave the biggest job in the country, I shall spend more time on the most important job, being the best husband I can to my fantastic wife, Vic, who has been a rock by my side through good times and bad, and being the best dad I can to my beautiful children, who are my pride and my joy.

10:13Oh, that's lovely, isn't it? And then we saw him going back to Vic, Victoria, his wife And they had a bit of a hug And then they went back into 10 Downing Street Where he will be for a matter of days or a matter of weeks Depending how this unfolds Gosh, that's not going to be much fun, is it? Now, I don't know much about Victoria Starmer But I do know from all that I've read And from hearing about from other people that she is a key person in his life, that this weekend he was making up his mind really very much with her. He'd made lots of phone calls on Friday, Saturday morning, to other politicians to see The Lie of the Land, and then he sat down with her.

10:59And she'd be an interesting guest, I think, wouldn't she? Oh, definitely. I mean, her memories, her own story, but actually the last few days would be intriguing. I mean, it must be very difficult supporting someone that's going through that, don't you think? I've been lucky enough to know, I suppose, well, as you know, I've known a lot of prime ministers, and I've been lucky enough to know the wives' partners of most of them. The first prime minister's wife I met was Mary Wilson. You've heard of Harold Wilson before your time. But he was a Labour prime minister and a successful one, and had two terms in office, won two elections.

11:33and his wife Mary was much mocked in her day. Private Eye ran a column, I think, called Mrs. Wilson's Diary and sort of spoofed her as though she was some lower middle class. It was patronising. And she published a book of poetry and that was rather mocked as well. But it's good poetry. And I read it because it was admired by John Betchman and I thought he's no fool. So I read her poems and I liked them very much. and as I think you know I'm a friend of their son Robin Wilson who's a professor of mathematics, brilliant man and so I've got to know the family a bit. Mary Wilson lived to be I think 104, remarkable lady.

12:12On her 100th birthday the late Queen Elizabeth II didn't send her a telegram. She invited her around for tea so she could deliver the telegram saying you're 100 in person. Oh that's lovely. So I got to know Mary Wilson and liked her. I got to know also a bit Dennis Thatcher and he was a bit spoofed you know sent up as though he was some ridiculous figure who was always on the bottle enjoying a tincture or playing golf he was actually a very successful businessman they liked to have a go at these sort of other halves because Cherie Blair was mocked a bit too she was a QC I mean extraordinary she sensibly carried on as Cherie Booth QC went on with her career But you're absolutely right.

12:57Do you know one of my happiest memories? I shouldn't really say this. I've forgotten how well I knew Cherie for a while. Was she really good fun? Not just good fun. She's a lovely person. I sprained my ankle at number 10 Downing Street. And I sat upstairs. Didn't know she was sharing this with anybody. We sat on a sofa. And she massaged my foot. I was going to say, did she give you a massage? She did. She massaged my foot in a really low, she massaged the ankle and then she stroked the bottom of my foot. Really, Giles? Oh, my goodness. Woo! So I'd forgot. But in a medical, in a caring way. No, in a loving, flirtatious, lovely way.

13:42I was being flirtatious, maybe. Yeah. I mean, well, it was a long time ago. Did you say you'd broken your ankle? No, I twisted my ankle or something, but it was genuine. because Michelle's always said to me, why do we get this card, Christmas card every year from Tony and Cherie? You didn't really know them. You're a Conservative MP. And I've been trying to work, I mean, I interviewed Tony Blair a number of times and he did say to me in the 2001 election, he did say to me. You're laughing at me now. No, but this is a brilliant revelation. Cherie Blair massaged my foot. Can't believe this is coming out now.

14:14This is front page news, Giles. I don't think so. Forget the resignation. Forget Andy Burnham. Cherie Blair massaged my ankle by Giles Brandreth. This is huge. Clear the front page, guys. It was a kindly moment of affection. I love it. We actually got on. By the way, sorry to interrupt. If you think I'm ever going to massage your foot, if you twist your ankle, you've got another thing coming. You've got to call Cherie Blair. There's no way I'm going anywhere near your foot. I'm just saying. Just putting it out there, are you? I'm just putting it out there. Don't go thinking. If you twist your ankle just now walking down those stairs, It's quite steep stairs where we are.

14:51I'll be just caught straight on the phone to Cherie. Well, moving swiftly on. Just saying, Charles. I have been lucky enough to know and indeed be fond of a number of Prime Minister's wives. To have my foot massaged by a number of Prime Minister's wives. Moving on to today's guest. Ah, I'm putting all the joshing firmly behind me because I'm really excited about today's guest. as I mentioned I've known a number of prime ministers over the years in fact all of them and I've been lucky enough occasionally to meet well always to meet their partners and I know Rishi Sunak who was Keir Starmer's immediate predecessor who as you remember only a couple of years ago stood at that same podium in Downing Street do you remember with the rain pouring down as he announced the election that he lost and then handed over and when he was saying goodbye from that very same lectern.

15:49In the background, rather as today, yesterday, Victoria Starmer was standing to one side of Keir Starmer. In the pictures that were taken of Rishi Sunak at the time, standing behind him right by the door of Den Downing Street was his wife, Akshata Moti. And having met both Rishi and Akshata, I thought, well, I hope one day, of course, we'll invite Rishi Sunak to be a guest on Roosevelt. We've had former prime ministers and we'd love to have him. But I thought, actually, having spent time chatting to Akshata, what an interesting story she's got to tell. Because she comes from a remarkable, achieving, hugely wealthy family.

16:33She's become a philanthropist. She is a mathematician. Her story is very interesting. And so I thought she would make a good guest. yeah and you agreed absolutely because i'm a big fan of uh india you know i think i've read my diary i traveled in india i love that country she grew up in bangalore which is in a beautiful city that i really enjoyed going to and um and i think that her story about growing up in a small town dusty town she says eating mangoes off the tree in india in a really humble you know you say her family's wealthy but they weren't wealthy when she was young you know they they made their wealth by her dad was a brilliant man really and made this amazing company so it's a very interesting story about someone that you know grew up in this family where the parents were just working so hard to build this incredible thing that they did and she saw all that going on around her it's very interesting so look it's a very interesting rather special episode of rosebud yeah so thank you very much for being with us and stay with us and enjoy Akshata Murthy on Rosebud.

17:42Cue the music.

17:55Akshata Murthy. Is that correctly pronounced? Very, very much so. Thank you for making the effort. What does, is the Akshata a first name and the Murti a surname? Correct. Akshata is my first name and it means infinity in Sanskrit. In Sanskrit, infinity. So in Hindu weddings, Giles, towards the end of the ceremony, some holy rice is sprinkled on the couple and that rice is called Akshata. Akshata, should we say Akshata? It's Akshata, Akshata, Akshata, all work. But which do you prefer? Do you know what? I've lived away from home for so long that I'm actually comfortable with all versions of them.

18:38In India, it's Akshata. Akshata. That's it. Akshata. Yes. Akshata. And so the holy rice is called Akshata. And that signifies that the couple, their bond will remain together forever. Lovely. For infinity. Forever. And it's a Hindu. It's a Hindu name and a Hindu tradition. And you are of Hindu upbringing? Yes, I was raised in a Hindu family and I'm practicing Hindu, yes. Born, that's where I've got this right, on the 25th of April, 1980. Yes. And I'm now going to ask you, what is your very first memory, Akshata? I'll tell you this, Giles, I might get quite emotional. My very first memory is of this man.

19:27And he used to visit me quite regularly. I was probably between two and three years old. And I remember him being really kind, really generous. He seemed quite sophisticated. He spoke to me in English, not in my mother tongue. I grew up speaking Kannada, which is a language spoken in southern India. But he would speak to me in English. He enforced no rules. He made me the centre of his world. I felt like a princess and I was always heartbroken when he left. And that man, Giles, was my dad. Oh my.

20:12And why was he visiting only on odd occasions? Because I, until I was about age five, grew up with my grandparents and not with my parents. Did you realise this man was your father? And I've thought about that. I think I was told it, certainly. And I called him Appa, which is the traditional name for dad in my language, Kannada. So I knew it intellectually, I'm sure. But he, it was almost like he was more. He just was this special person in my life. And he came and he went. and I have this image in my head of lying down next to him. He had a nap every afternoon and I would just stare at him. I mean, I still remember the crook of his arm, what he wore.

21:06He would wear this Indian pajama, checked pajama bottom. And even to this day, as you rightly said, I'm 46 almost. He's one of the most special people in my life. Where is this memory taking place? Where are you? At your grandparents' home? So yes. So I was born and raised in a small town in southern India called Hubli. Hubli. Yeah, Hubli. And I was born in my maternal grandparents' home. My grandfather was an OB-GYN surgeon and my grandmother... A what surgeon? An obstetrics and gynecologist. OB-GYN. That sounds for obstetrics and gynecologists. I love it. you young mothers is the language you speak sorry obi-gyne very good yes um and uh my grandmother was a homemaker they made their family home in hubli which was a dusty small town it was very hot all the time still is i think um it to me it was just uh absolutely joyful to grow up there.

22:19One image I have from when I was little is, you know, in India, the mango season is a big part of the calendar. And during mango season, my grandmother would put me in a white dress, a sleeveless white short dress. And lunch was mangoes. And we wouldn't chop them up or we would literally suck them whole, the fruit whole. And it was just so joyful. So why are you having to live with your grandparents? You have a father, this mystery man, we're going to discover more. And I assume you have a mother as well. Yes. And they were married. Yes. And who was your mother? So maybe I'll take a couple of steps back.

23:03Do. My father was born in 1946. I say an almost midnight child. You know, India gained independence in 1947. seven. He came from a family of eight. But my paternal grandfather, who I never met, who sadly passed away before my parents were even married, he was an idealist. And he would encourage my father and his brothers and sisters to think really hard about what they can do for the newly independent India? What value could they add to India, to this young nation? And I think that really planted a seed inside my dad on how whatever he did later on in life, it had to benefit the nation in some way.

23:56But the nation, not just the community or the village. No, the nation. And then you have my mother, whose father was a doctor, and she also spent a lot of time with her grandparents. And so now we're talking about my mother's grandfather. He became a history teacher. So she grew up with these incredible stories also of India and Indian myths and Indian heritage and traditions. And so you have these two people strip them to their kind of basics and they are both motivated by nationhood. And how do they meet? Where do they meet? They meet through a mutual friend. They were introduced to each other because they both loved books.

24:49And my father was sort of this quite geeky, reserved intellectual who read books all the time. and my mother was quite an outgoing, adventurous, optimistic young woman, but also loved books. My father loved physics and maths and my mother loved history and literature. And they were dating before dating was considered a fait. Respectful. Yes.

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26:54What did their parents think about them dating? Because this is an era where the expectation would be the two families would decide, you know, here is a cousin or a friend of the family who would be an appropriate person for you to marry. The arranged marriage concept, you mean. Do you know, that was certainly the norm. My parents defied the norm. Oh my gosh. And what did their parents make of that? they didn't mind they accepted it they accepted it eventually let's say but but both my parents were incredibly focused on making that partnership work I think my mother even made a statement at one point where she said to my grandfather okay so if you don't agree for me to marry Murthy, my father.

27:43That's fine. It's just I will never get married then. So she took a stand. And here's, I think, here's the best, one of the many best things about their marriage. So prior to their meeting, they each signed books, books they purchased in a bookshop or whatever, with their name and the date. And once they got together, they would start signing books with both their names and the date. And even now in our library at home, every single book in our library has both their names and the date and a lot of the times the location where they purchased the book. So they were building a library together. They were building a library together.

28:23And how many children did they have? How many siblings do you have? So it's me and my younger brother. He's three and a half years younger and he is, we're very close. And when they married though, what was the plan for them to do for their careers? What was their expectation? So I think my father did come from a family where it was hard to make ends meet. And he knew that he needed to get a job that could help support his mother, his siblings who are younger. And he realized that technology was where the world was heading. And he had a brain for engineering. So he studied to be an engineer. And then my mother again quite unorthodox she loved people she was very bright so she was advised by my grandfather to be a doctor he was a doctor my mother's older sister is a doctor she she didn't think she wanted to be a doctor so she said well I'll be an engineer then my my grandparents were horrified because women didn't go into engineering and I'm talking now in the mid-70s in southern India She was the only woman engineer in her university.

29:39If she needed to use the loo, she would have to come back home because there wasn't even a women's loo at university. Because there'd never been any women engineers before. Correct. And by the way, candidly, I think in that time in India, if a girl was over-educated, it was harder to find a groom. Oh. That's also, I think, why she felt so understood by my father, who was never threatened by any of that. Anyway, so she now says, OK, now I need to look for a job. And she reads about one in the paper. And it's for an engineering position at this company called Telco, which was at the time India's largest car manufacturing plant.

30:29And it said something like, women need not apply. and so of course my mother reads this and says well if that's what they're saying i'm going to apply so she writes a letter to the chairman the late jrd tata of the tata fame and family and there's still a very well respected business in india and she says well I saw this letter, I saw this ad even, and I'm really disappointed. And I feel I'm just as qualified. So at the very least, I request you to interview me. And she thought nothing would come of it and forgot about it. And I think a few weeks later, she received a letter from Mr. Tata's office to come to Bombay to be interviewed.

31:25She met the great man. She went straight to the top. She met the great man. I've written to the chairman. The chairman said, come and see me. Yes. And she got a job to work at Telco, which involved working in offices and on the factory floor. And again, there was the only female engineer on the factory floor. So this has been my mother's journey and and from then on she has uh taken other adventures on and but we're coming on to those other adventures what we've got though is these two people two engineers who get together yes and it's actually a love match and a fellow feeling match which is absolutely not part of the tradition of their families but the families have to accept it they get married they begin to have children quite quickly i assume a couple of years later yeah because they were they dated for four years and so when they got married the family was getting used to it yes yes i mean i don't know i think of india we think of india as being a traditional society when you say they dated we mean they dated they didn't move in together no they did not move in together no so they are dating they get married they then move in together yes and then children come along children come along and the expectation would be that the parents would bring up the children wouldn't they absolutely absolutely so why didn't they so there's a short answer and a long answer and the short answer was they had me 1980 they were both working full-time because there was no concept of maternity leave they my mother had me in Hubli and then took me to Pune where they were living and working at the time and it became impossible to have a newborn and two full-time jobs so when I was 90 days old my mother met my sister her sister my aunt and her mother my maternal grandmother in the airport in northern Karnataka and handed me over and said from now on she is your daughter

33:25and what do you feel about this I sense you feel some conflict about this do you know just I've genuinely thought about whether I feel conflict. I think I feel emotional. I feel emotional because I am so close to my mother. I am equally close to my mother's older sister, my aunt. And I was very close to my maternal grandmother, my late maternal grandmother, who always told me, by the way, that she was the same age as the late queen. So she had great respect for the late queen. So she passed away in 2012. But I feel so close to these three women. And I would, Mother's Day would roll around and I would send three Mother's Day cards.

34:20But as I've gotten older, I have asked myself, have I felt resentment towards my parents? and I genuinely don't. I really don't. I feel sadness, and the sadness I feel is for my mother to let go of this newborn and your first child. I think my mother feels sadness. My mother felt sadness, and I think she still feels sadness, but not resentment. But it is unusual. It is unusual, yes. That your mother literally gives you away when you're only three months old. And as a consequence of that, she almost becomes like an auntie to you. Exactly. That she visits you as an auntie might. And your father is almost this magic charmer who comes and you realise there's this lovely man in my life.

35:21What fun he is. We're not quite sure what our relationship is. I called him father, but anyway, he keeps going away. That is a bit unusual. It is. And they are choosing to do this because they together have this feeling that they are going to give their first duty is maybe not to be parents, but to fulfill this ambition of giving something to India. To their nation. Something huge. And what we're going to discover is that in their different ways, they both managed to do that because they're starting out doing it because they haven't got any money to bring you up. Yes. But if what I read in the papers is right, your father is now one of the wealthiest people in all India, if not possibly the world.

36:09So he didn't waste his time when he came back to charm you because the rest of the time he was out there doing whatever he did to make his fortune. How did he make his fortune? What was he doing when he wasn't with you, your dad? So he was in the midst of setting up this company for which he is now well known. which is called called Infosys he founded it in 1981 yeah when you were a year old yes that's right and in fact even to this day my father will tell you if he was sitting here he has three children me born in 1980 Infosys born in 1981 and my brother born in 1983 which is his favorite or probably he's not allowed to have favorites no he's not and and if you said to me when I was younger what you felt about Infosys before I had my own family I wouldn't be lying if I said it Infosys is my sibling all my memories of growing up are so deeply intertwined with the building of Infosys I mean I remember the first office the the day that my father signed his first contract My mother and I would host Infosys birthday parties.

37:25I mean, on and on the list goes. Is he still alive? My father, yes. Is he still running the company, head of the company? Not at all, no. Because he set it up, Giles, not to be, unlike a lot of other Indian companies, this wasn't a family business. He set it up as a professional entity. So he got five younger, what he called co-founders, to set the company up in 1981. And he borrowed what today is 50 pounds, 6 ,000 Indian rupees of savings from my mother as startup capital. Because my father didn't come from money. He was a man with a dream. I mean, the original Silicon Valley tech bro, if you think of it.

38:11and he also wanted to prove that in the modern India it didn't matter who you were or what money you had or didn't have or who you knew as long as you had a dream and you worked hard. Knowing him well, which I assume you now do, though he didn't maybe as a little girl, what did he have that enabled him to take 50 pounds the equivalent of 50 pounds and turn it into literally billions in a lifetime what are the qualities as a person that he had i mean i that's such a great question but i'll say it wasn't just him you know he inspired a team and it took time so it wasn't an overnight success at all um so that was the journey but what the question is, what are those qualities?

39:05I'll tell you what the emphasis motto was when he founded it. It was powered by intellect, driven by values. And so he was a mix of the two. You know, he had deep intellect for computer science and technology, but he is deeply passionate about the values he stands for, which are honesty, which he calls integrity, resilience, hard work. And he said this when he founded Infosys, I'm not looking to build the most profitable business. I'm looking to build the most respected business. And did he succeed in that? And he did. And I think even as the technological wave was sweeping over India Infosys was always known for being the company that stood out because they had the highest levels of integrity and what's his greatest in your view greatest philanthropic achievement the good works that he's done that you pick me one sure sure My father is a huge believer in social mobility.

40:23He came up with this concept, which had been around, but he used it actively in the setting up of his business. It's called compassionate capitalism. So make money, but make money while you're also being compassionate to everyone around you. So he took on this concept of the employee stock option plan that was well known on the West Coast. So you set up a company and you give a small piece of the business to your employees. Everyone got a piece of the business. He had three children, the middle one being Infosys. Yes. He's probably the one that had most attention during your early years. What is your sweetest memory of him, your happiest memory of you with your dad when you were a little girl or a girl?

41:10Absolutely. So he would travel a lot because the client base for Infosys was always international, foreign clients. And so there were years when he traveled truly 350 days during the year. What? 350 days on the road, flying around the world? Yes. Selling whatever Infosys was. Selling software. Selling software. Yes, yes. I'm not saying that was every year, but there were some years. And so when he was in town, it was a very special time. I bet. Much like that memory I described at the beginning. And he had this tradition. He would take my younger brother and I out to this restaurant. It was called Max Fast Food in Bangalore.

41:55He loved it because it was both Indian and Western. We ate pizzas and he had some Indian food. And there was a toy shop around the corner called Sapphire's. and I always got a new Barbie doll and my brother got a new He-Man toy figure and we ended up having so many dolls and figurines because that was my father's way of showing, I don't want to say showing love, but giving us his time and building that connection with us. And it's etched in my memory. So when my children, I don't know if it's still around these shops, but they were certainly around a decade ago. So I took my kids and they somehow didn't find it as exciting as I did.

42:38Is there a gap though in your life, in your head? Do you ensure that your husband, Rishi, does not give himself totally over to work and there are years when he's only available out of 365 days, only 15 of those is he available to his family? I think Rishi's of a different generation where the concept of parenthood is much more shared. Rishi also, while he has had a very busy few years, he was around when the girls were much younger. He was a local MP. We established a home in North Yorkshire. So we had that time together before he got into frontline politics. and and so I think two things one I grew up where I didn't feel this dearth and and so I I didn't think when I had my children gosh I don't want my family to be that way so whenever Rishi was busy and and couldn't focus as much say on family life that's all I knew growing up and that made a lot of sense to me and this is where this this kind of bigger this bigger entity that was in my life growing up with emphasis but India you know the bigger cause was always India um so when I look at it the same way with Rishi you know there is something bigger for better or worse that's how I think about it well most unusual so what was your mother's contribution we're going to get back to your family life in a moment with the aunt and your grandparents but what was your mother's contribution to India what has it been in her life sure so so she uh she engaged in so many projects big and small so I'll give you an example of a big and a small so she she because again because of my father's she saw the power of entrepreneurship to transform lives and so she started giving out these micro grants to men and women who didn't have a job or were in transition periods of their lives to start very small businesses.

44:54And those were one-off grants and it was a tailoring shop or it was a corner shop. Some people bought a couple of cattle and started a milking business. But then she, and you know, this love for books that I talked to you about, she said, look, I'm going to build a library in every village in my state. Because every child should be exposed to reading and books. This is a large state, I imagine. It's a large state, that's right. And she started small. So she went to villages around Hubli where she grew up. And she would start in a little shop, would carry some books. It then grew in some places to someone's home, a room dedicated in sort of the local head's home.

45:45and then as that grew she started doing this in schools and then as that grew she had standalone buildings and then she expanded it out of the state. I wish I had the numbers for you but tens of thousands of libraries across India and for her it was to get young people to discover the joy of reading because that's how she became curious about the world. And then she then became a writer. Right from when she was probably a teenager, she wrote. She wrote for fun. And now she writes primarily in English. She writes primarily for children. She writes about a few different topics. She writes on Indian mythology.

46:33And it's our version of sort of Greek tales, ancient Greek tales. She does that for ancient India. she writes kind of like Aesop's fables you know stories with a moral ending that she has acquired through her life experiences but also the experiences that she got creating the foundation but what is extraordinary is doing my homework I looked up best-selling authors in India and she turns out to be possibly the best-selling children's author in the whole of India which may now be the most populous country in the world if not. Yes, it is. Yes, it is now. I mean, what we're talking about here, these two extraordinary people who happen to be your parents, who aren't just achievers but super achievers.

47:22And the lesson I'm learning is if you want to be a super achiever, give your children to the grandparents to free up the time to get on with what you want to do. But you have covered that because your family was very loving and giving. Yes, absolutely they were. Tell me about village life when you were a little girl. Yes. Because now you live this super sophisticated life. When you were a tiny little girl, what was village like? What did you eat? So Hubli was not quite a village, but it wasn't a city. So it was a small town. My grandfather was still a practicing doctor at the time. And he himself was quite unorthodox because trust a man in the 50s to pick obstetrics and gynecology as his profession when women didn't want to go to male doctors.

48:08But anyway, so he was still a... And he worked for the local government hospital, we say in India, but you know, the NHS. Is it like it is in this country? Are there classes in the sense that, would it be right to describe this as a middle-class family? Exactly. Because they're professional people. Exactly. Middle class. My grandfather had saved enough to build his own home. It was a lovely bungalow, three bedrooms with mango tree in the backyard, green mangoes. I can still picture them. So fragrant. Coconut trees, gooseberry trees. You know, you grow up in the tropics. Those are the advantages.

48:48They enrolled me in a little nursery school. And I was actually talking to my mother's older sister, my aunt, earlier this week. and she was reminding me that this nursery school was literally in a ditch and it was called the ditch school you know it was not fancy at all so today you know we all worry about where we send our kids to school and nursery it was literally in a ditch yeah almost by the side of the road get down to the ditch that's it that's where the lessons taking place that's it yes and uh i studied in canada i didn't speak a word of english till i was five you spoke the local language but when you moved to bangalore at five and that is that a cultural change that was a cultural change it was a it was a big city um i also had to move away from living with my grandparents to now living with my parents oh and that was hard because i hadn't really ever lived just with them.

49:47So we were now that nuclear family in a different city, in a big city. All my childhood friends lived in Hubli. And that was a big move for a five-year-old. So I remember I took my grandmother's sari as my teddy to sleep with every night because I was so attached to her. But you know, I've had a life, and I'm sure we'll talk a bit about this. I've had a life of big transitions Giles and maybe it started young and and you get on with it you just get on with it that's so in Bangalore you're seeing more of your father or is he out of work I'm seeing more of my father of course I am because they made a conscious decision to set up the headquarters for Infosys in Bangalore before that it was sort of working from their apartment and things like that in in Pune.

50:41And yes, we had a more traditional family unit. My brother was born and he was two and a bit by then. And I enrolled in school reception. Did you do well at school? I did well at school, yes. Of course you did. And were you popular? Were you liked? I wouldn't say I was one of the popular kids. I was one of the quieter kids. I was understated. and I was hugely passionate about history, literature and writing. Did you in your head already think this is what I'm going to do? When you're 10 or 11 you're beginning to think what my life is going to be or not? I did, I did. And what did you hope for?

51:26Do you know that's quite complicated and I'll tell you why. I grew up in this family of super achievers. in the India I grew up if you did well at school then you went into either engineering or medicine much like my mother I felt that if I had to make my parents proud I should be an engineer but I didn't I didn't relate it I it didn't speak to me and so I I had this conflict in my head where I sort of knew what I loved. I mean, I knew what I loved, but I felt like I should love something else. And ultimately, I didn't end up becoming an engineer. You did? I did not, no. You did not? No, I studied economics and French.

52:17But I think at the time, I felt like I was letting my parents down.

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53:11And at your next school, your secondary school. Yes. You go on being quite a good achiever. I do, yes. Was it a boy's school or a girl's school? It was an all-girls school. All-girls school. Yes. But did you have any crushes? I did. I did. So, you know, I went to an all girls school, so it was slim pickings when it came to boys. But my mother, who was a professor at this women's college, she did her day job, which was to teach computer science. But again, she loves people. She loves mentoring young people so she became the unofficial school's kind of counselor and so she would finish teaching at say midday or 2 p.m and then she would open it up to help young women navigate life so there would be lines and lines around her office not of young women coming to ask her questions about the computer science curriculum but about love and life and riffs that had with their parents or what they should do when they grow up.

54:21And so she had one student she was particularly close to who she was helping. And the student had a younger brother. And he was a couple of years older. He played the guitar. He wore pink Floyd t-shirts. Again, this girl who who was brought up in quite a traditional upbringing. You know, you meet this boy. He played rock music, listened to rock music. It just felt so exciting. He didn't know, of course. It was just me staring and oogling. We think of, people like me, who know nothing about these things, think about you young people in India being quite innocent at this period. and if you've like me seen and enjoyed a few Bollywood films, you think there's a kind of innocent fairy tale approach to romance, that it's all rather lovely, musical, a lot of dancing.

55:21Frolicking. And then it ends happily ever after. So did you think about romantic things in your head? What was going on in your head? Do you know what? I had quite an innocent childhood, Giles. I mean my daughters don't believe this when I say it but I had much longer hair and I was 15 and my aunt would braid my hair in the mornings and she would make me do one of two things either recite times tables up to 25 or recite verses in Sanskrit none of this sort of listening to Bollywood music or it was a constant focus on learning and tradition and values. So at school you're at this sixth form basically boys and girls.

56:23Yes. There is clearly a tug in your head between the traditional old world. Yes. That you come from. Very much. And the excitement of the new world but you're clever you're going to go to college what's the college you're going to go to so I went to a small liberal arts college in America on the west coast outside of Los Angeles because by now your father has become very much an international person the business the business has done well um and my parents can afford to send me to college abroad but you know i had three jobs in in college so i still needed to to contribute in some way away from home but i was away from home the extraordinary thing is here's this little girl from this little bit not this small town yes this mango eating little child yes speaking in canada speaking in canada yeah brought up by a lovely grandmother and aunties um who is slowly blossoming and now is suddenly sent to America.

57:21Yes. Aged 18? 18. Hey! Yes. And yoy, here I am. But you've been doing philanthropy already. I mean, I read a lovely story about you teaching a boy. Yes, yes, that's right. So when I was, well, let me, I'll share another little story actually. So when we were, so my brother and I never celebrated our birthdays. So whenever it was. For what reason? So whenever it was our birthdays, my mother would say, well, how much do you think a birthday party costs? She would sort of calculate and give or take 200 rupees, 300 rupees. And she said, well, instead of you guys having a birthday party, you can either pick a charity of your choice.

58:06Or I will talk to you about a few different causes that might be meaningful to you. And we will go and give this money to that charity. And all I wanted at age eight was, you know, a birthday cake and balloons. And I didn't, that wasn't what we did. And so, yes, was that more than mildly annoying at age eight? Yes. Did all my friends have birthday parties? Did I invite it to everyone? Yes. But my mother said, no, this is just how we do things. and so age 16 or 15 actually um I was already thinking about how can I do things that in my own small way I can help others impact others positively and so she introduced me to a blind school, or school for the blind, sorry.

59:05And I met this young man, his name is Anand. And he, I used to read to him, and I would scribe some of his exams. And that got me thinking, well, this is one person, but we should be helping so many more. And how can we do that? and my mother and I would talk about what really is one's duty. Is it to look after ourselves and our families? Is it to look after ourselves and the communities in which we live? Is it to look after ourselves at communities and something beyond? Those were the conversations I was having with her. I was about 15, maybe 16. and so that's when my parents had that discussion and my mother founded in the emphasis foundation you are this is extraordinary because with my daughters at that sort of age we were watching friends we didn't get friends in india child i don't think i was instilling any of these wonderful values so this is the person who ends up in california that's right and what is you get degree yes so I got my undergraduate degree in economics and French and and you know I was so close to my dad and valued his input so much every semester I would send him my course catalog and it would take like three weeks to get to India the physical mail and he would give me suggestions for courses and I would incorporate a lot of those suggestions you know I really looked up to him I really trusted him and I I'll say this you know my dad has been my hero well done him yeah I mean this is the way to do it yes you know 15 days a year but I'm a hero the mistake I made was being around my children all this time because I'm certainly not their Deary me, this is an educational broadcast.

1:01:15Yes. So, is Rishi your first proper boyfriend? No. Oh.

1:01:26I was very close to someone else.

1:01:31And it was one of the reasons, actually, I ended up picking Stanford in San Francisco because he was based there. And why didn't that go anywhere? Because you were too young? No, because I met Rishi Giles. Oh, competition. You met him out there, did you, Rishi? I met him at Stanford University, where I was enrolled to get a Master's in Business Administration, an MBA, and Rishi was there also. What's he got? What does it take? What's he got that the other person didn't? What has he got? What did he have then? How old were you both? We were 24. We were just friends, actually, in the beginning. Rishi was this incredibly energetic, fun-loving British, everyone loved his accent.

1:02:23And I was his friend and I would help him out because Rishi was always rushing around. And he was looking to buy a car but couldn't find a good deal. So sometimes I would drive him to places. That's how we got to know each other. and what I loved about Rishi is his complete love for his country. I mean, he would talk about the UK all the time. In the UK, the supermarkets are better because of whatever reason. In the UK, the gardens are better. In the UK, the education is better. So far, he certainly writes about the gardens. Keep going. Did you counter that, though, with how much you loved your country, given this upbringing you had had of parents who were there to make India aware of the history and the importance and the contribution they've got to make?

1:03:23Did you fight back, or were you so wooed, seduced by him? I wasn't wooed or seduced at all. Do you know what? I was intrigued because I hadn't met someone my age who spoke in that way. and so he reminded me a lot of my parents. How quickly did you realise, actually, we're going to be a couple, and this is going to go on? Oh, only after we graduated. Oh, so it was a while. It was a while, because I wasn't sure, because Rishi was quite honest with me very early on in the relationship that my home will be in the UK, and I wasn't quite sure about that. so it took me some time to make sense of it you know he knew what his path was and then the question was for me do I follow his path or do I make my own so I I lived in San Francisco Rishi lived in London we had a three-year long distance relationship so it can work because people say it can't work yes it was well because we we did have those couple of years together you know so we were together and then we went um off a bit um and it was hard but it was also hard because I spent that time really questioning what I want have you given up your life to actually his life in the sense that you are an achieving person you're doing great things together now philanthropic things like the Richmond project which we must talk about but you have had two girls two girls two girls you then he got into politics then you had to be a constituency wife i know what it's like because i have one and now i have a daughter who's an mp so i don't think a constituency husband involves uh he then quickly uh climbed the ladder found himself chancellor the exchequer eventually found himself as prime minister uh and And then, you know, it rained on his parade and that came to an end.

1:05:25But the point is, we are meeting because I met you because I knew the Prime Minister. Yes. And I thought you're brilliant. But I'm now sitting here, I'm realising that you were brought up to make an impact on where you came from, your duty. That was India. You gave up your life for this man. Do you feel that sometimes? I'll tell you what, Giles. I think in so many ways Rishi's life and my life and the coming together the life we have created is so similar to my parents I think they individually could have done incredible things but they came together and I think the whole was genuinely greater than the sum of its parts and I think I saw that in Rishi and he inspired me and he moved me and and I I love Rishi and I know Rishi loves me and there's nothing we would not do for each other but I don't even view it as a sacrifice I view you know it's interesting you say I rightly I grew up in India and I I am proudly Indian but there's something else my parents did for me subconsciously which is this concept of a nation is but a giant community and whichever nation you make your home you give to it and you give to it in your fullest way and the UK is my home.

1:07:01Did you take it personally or maybe you were spared it but when Rishi already when he was chancellor but particularly when he became prime minister there was lots in the press about you being a hugely wealthy family having had privileged childhoods people didn't know the detail of your particular childhood but basically it was these are usually a what could they know about real life and b you know are they paying their taxes there was lots of stuff like that was it water off a duck's back did you notice it does it matter look i would be lying if i said some of that didn't hurt. I think it's never nice to have negative headlines in the press, and it's never nice when, especially when they're not quite true, or they're sort of misunderstood.

1:07:53So that did hurt. I also understood that this is the world of politics. I mean, you know that. and that's part and parcel of it and you say okay this is this is what it is and you move forward the best way you can and that's really what I tried to do you know I made changes I didn't want there to be continuous distraction and I realized that actually what really matters is why we're doing it why why Rishi is in public service in elected office were you able to laugh together absolutely because I do you remember well of course you won't have forgotten the day that he announced the general election yes and that terrible downpour yes the poor fellow what does he do can't stop you've got to keep going so he gets drowned and then asked to return were you in downing street that day I was I was I was behind the the window watching him and I'll tell you what it was it was it was tough it was tough because that that period was a tough time and he goes out and as you rightly say you know he starts making the speech and the the drops become what felt like a deluge um but hey that's that's i think we as we've spoken you know you get on with it and he got on with it and he came back inside and my mother called me and she said gosh Akshata you and Rishi are so lucky and I said what do you mean and he was you know it was quite a busy day it was chaotic and she said Akshata in Indian culture when it rains it's a sign of good luck so it's actually auspicious to have rain when you have big moments.

1:09:51So she said, how lucky are you that you had rain during this moment? And that just took away whatever angst there might have been inside. What was the best moment of being the Prime Minister's wife? Oh, Charles, I'll tell you, I love British history. So when I moved to the UK, my way of making sense of, well, North Yorkshire actually, when Rishi was selected and then elected as an MP, my way of making sense of that place was to read history. So when it was the coronation and sitting there in the Abbey and being and feeling a part of this incredible history, this thread of history that has been woven through a thousand years, you know craning my neck to see King Edward's chair I mean I get goosebumps even as I talk to about it you're only 46 not yet 46 in April exactly yes so you're only 45 I'm only 45 yes and you have these parents yes what are you going to do this next what are you going to do we are only 45.

1:11:15Our first endeavour and something that we are so proud of and we care deeply about is the Richmond Project. Which in a nutshell is what? First of all named after Richmond in North Yorkshire which is Rishi's patch and he's still the local MP there. So the Richmond Project is all about transforming people's lives by giving them greater number confidence. Is there anything you're ashamed of? Anything that you didn't anything you didn't once say to somebody or you regret now? Something? Gosh I really have to think about that one. Well it's good. There's so many things that I'm ashamed of or at least embarrassed by.

1:11:59It's wonderful. I'm sure there will be some things that I will have regretted. Give me one of those. yeah

1:12:16who

1:12:22I'm having a complete mind that's okay because you are somebody who tries to be good yes you try always to tell the truth yes this idea of integrity is important to you and what do you do to unwind yes I read history and I'm currently reading a book called The Man Who Knew Infinity. Given that's your name. Yeah, there you go. Akshata means infinity. The Man Who Knew Infinity. Yes. Is this the autobiography of Rishi Sunak? Hardly. It's about this incredible Indian mathematician who came to England to go to Cambridge in 1913 or 1914. he transformed the way we think about numbers and his work is relevant even today whether that being AI or cancer research but he had a very tragic life I think he died incredibly young at 32 and so I'm reading his biography at the moment.

1:13:24To me as you know because I'm a fan of yours I love you I think you're wonderful but to some people they will think you are odd there is something odd about your childhood coming from this extraordinary achieving family all the wealth that you've been surrounded by that you are not grown up in child no no no i accept i mean the journey has been extraordinary and also there was hard graft your parents gave you up so that they could make the achievement all that i'm taking but people who don't know you will think oh isn't she odd she's reading this book about a mathematician um you know she's like oh they are very quite an odd couple these two are you conscious of that are you conscious that other people do look at you as being a bit unusual does that bother you or have I got it totally wrong no I mean look we have certainly had um one might say an incredible life one might say a life out of the ordinary but then again I've talked to you about my parents and their lives a bit and that's who we are and we are proud of that and we're grateful to have the interest and the opportunities that we do.

1:14:45Three more quick questions. Yes. A moment of joy from your life. do you know since um we have um moved away from downing street we've been able to spend more time together as a family and there will be the odd moment well actually i shouldn't say odd we've had some real uh cherished moments where rishi and i and the girls come together and we're laughing or sharing when you were down street were the girls living there as well um one of them was and one of them was a boarding school. Because you had the flat. Did you have the flat above 11 Downing Street? We did, yes. Which is a bit more spacious.

1:15:24No, sorry, no, we had the flat above number 10. Oh, which is not so spacious. Yeah, well, it was plenty spacious to us. It was lovely. You liked it? You were actually quite happy there? Yes, we made a home. Good. Yes. But anyway, now we are the four of us together as a family and we will just, we won't be doing anything fancy, but we'll watch a film. will watch Friends say. Oh, good. And have such, just, it's almost like I have this out-of-body experience looking in and I say, wow, this is my family and this is us coming together and we have these connections and that's sheer joy. I'm so happy you're watching Friends because I feared for a moment you're going to be doing mathematical puzzles with one another.

1:16:10That's going to be your idea. Oh, no, Giles, no. You can be occasionally larky. We, we, watch way too much friends. And do your, are your daughters going to end up in India or do you think in the UK? Oh, no, no. I'll tell you this, Giles. They are, if you wake them up in the middle of the night and ask them where they're from, they'll tell you North Yorkshire. They are girls of Indian heritage who live in the UK, but their identity is firmly rooted in North Yorkshire. Because so much that's exciting is happening in India, from all I'm told, and I've been there. Yes. Whereas Britain, for many people, is sort of backward looking, or the past is the excitement for Britain, and the future is excitement for India.

1:17:02But you don't feel that, clearly? No, absolutely not. And my children certainly don't feel that either. And Rishi and I are so excited to start a new chapter in the UK, which is home, which is our daughter's home, and which will be their future. What has life taught you, Akshata? You know that poem, Giles, The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost. And I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference. That has been the story of my life. and I'm proud of it and I will not shy away from it. I think when I was younger, I tried a bit more to fit into the moulds. But I think at 45, it's taught me that...

1:17:52So you feel you've taken the road less travelled by because the poem is about coming in the wood. Yes, two roads diverged in a yellow wood, yes. and you took the one that you feel not necessarily everyone else would have taken yes and you feel that's rewarded you that has certainly been the making of me well I'm very glad the road you've travelled by today has included the Rosebud Studio I'm honoured to be here, thank you thank you Akshata

1:18:35Thank you.

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