More Rosebud - Gyles's Diaries episode 37

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1:23Okay. Okay. It's Harriet. Is it on? Is this thing on? This thing is on. It's a microphone. I'm sitting by, well, in fact, there are two microphones. Sitting behind one of them is my friend Harriet Jane. I'm sitting behind the other. They both have lovely pink tea coases. What are they called? It's called a pop shield. A pop shield. Yes, because it stops that plosive thing, which is when you do a sound like a P. It can make it sound like it's popping, exploding. it's not very nice to listen to yeah i often think when i see television reporters out and i know it's very windy they have got muffling they've got a windshield a little windshield you really need like a big sort of fluffy thing yeah because otherwise you can really hear the yeah but this is known as a pop shield it's pink you got it for the rosebud colors i did i'm afraid to say i got it from i think i got it from amazon i hopefully didn't i hope i got it from gear for music which She's my preferred supplier.

2:23I think Amazon is trying to put out of business every other shop in the world. It's probably not the best. The only reason I salute Amazon is when they started 30 years ago, I thought they never succeeded. No, no, it's very impressive what they've done. They were just selling books at that stage. Yeah, out of a garage. I mean, it's amazing, John. So when people start something that gets up and works, you can't really complain, can you? Yeah, but then they get too big for their boots. We don't want people getting too big for their boots. I think Amazon's way too big for its boots. Speaking about being too big for their boots, Last week, a week ago today, if you're listening to this in live, real time, our special guest on More Rosebud last week was Michael Heseltine.

3:00Now, Lord Heseltine, 93. Happy birthday to him, who came to a recording. We do some recordings live. We've got some live ones coming up, which we may tell you about. Anyway, he came with his wife, Anne. I think we've been married since something like 1962. It's a very long time. He still seemed really in love as well. Actually, they were very lovely together. She was quite protective of him. And I think when I asked him at the end, I think, was it when I asked about the saddest moment of his life? Yeah, you said, I'm sure it was your father's death, wasn't it? Something like that. And she was sitting next to my wife in the audience.

3:42And she said out loud, not necessarily to my wife, but maybe to my wife. I got it from my wife. Probably to you. That's cruel. Yes. And I didn't hear about it afterwards. And I wouldn't want to be cruel. So if I, I don't think I was actually. He had talked about it. And I think obviously the impact on him was very great. But it intrigued me that she, Anne, was still so protective of him. And of somebody like him who has been in the public sphere for so long. And can handle a pipsqueak interviewer like me. But he was opening up and I think she probably felt he was a bit vulnerable. You're right, he was.

4:22It was a marvellous... I mean, I do feel the privilege of people coming onto Rosebud and sharing their stories, often very intimate moments. He could be quite grand, Michael Hitteltine. I recall, oh, a long time ago, in the 1990s, when I was a junior member of the government and he was almost the most senior member of the government. He was the Deputy Prime Minister. We'd both been invited on the 4th of July to a party given by the American Ambassador to London, a delightful man called Raymond Zeitz. And this was a glorious party. The American Ambassador has a beautiful house in Regent's Park with the largest garden, private garden in London, other than the Buckingham Palace Garden.

5:06Oh, wow. So it's a pretty big garden. and it was a very lovely party with stars of stage and screen and politics, military figures, literary figures, you name it. If you're the American ambassador and you invite people to a Fourth of July party, people turn up. What were you doing there? You may well ask, why had Michelle and I been invited to this party? We were duly honoured. Very honoured. He was thrilled to know him. He was a very civilized man, Raymond Zeitz. Anyway, the deputy prime minister was there. And as we were leaving at the end of the party, we were all lining up to say goodbye to the ambassador.

5:46It was quite formal. He and his wife stood by the door where people left. And you queued up to say goodbye and thank you. And he wanted to shake everybody's hand. And it was quite a long queue because there were hundreds of people at this party. and michelle and i were in the queue with some interesting people and we noticed michael heseltine deputy prime minister stalking past us he's very tall still but he was even taller then because he was in his 50s or 60s he wasn't 93 as he is now and he had this wonderful you know that's why he was known as tarzan he had this wonderful mane but he's like a lion on the on the prowl he He was like a lion, a huge...

6:27Did you even feel that meeting him now? Yes, you know, he's called a big beast, but he actually is like a big cat. He is like a big cat. King of the jungle. King of the jungle. I think he called himself, I think he called his autobiography, Out of the Jungle. Yeah. So this big beast stalks past this long queue, straight to the front of the queue to say goodbye to the ambassador. He queue jumps. Absolutely. And the ambassador says to him, excuse me, Michael, deputy prime minister, this is the American embassy. We're Democrats in America. You join the line. Whoa. And I think for the first time in his life, Michael Heseltine was sent to the back of the queue.

7:10Yeah. Wow. So I saw a moment of humiliation in the life of the great man. Wow. But he hasn't done too badly. No. And it was very decent of him to come and be on Rosebud. We loved having him as a guest. So our thanks to him. and our thanks to Wes Streeting. Brilliant. That was interesting, wasn't it? Yeah, really impressive. The rise from a council flat to the cabinet. Very impressive. It doesn't happen that much. No. Not enough. And he's had a life story as well because some people said, yeah, but what has he done? You know, he was president of the National Union of Students. Then he became an MP.

7:44What sort of life has he led? Well, the truth is he has led a real life. Yeah. It's always a problem for me as a politician. I like, do you like most of the people we meet? Oh, I do. Yeah, I like all of them. I like all of them too. I'm thrilled to meet people. Well, of course we're thrilled to meet people. But sometimes people can't understand that. You know, we were talking the other day, weren't we, about people used to wear a T-shirt saying, I never kissed a conservative. Oh, I see. Oh, you mean if someone's not on your political spectrum, you should not like them? Oh, I think that's very silly.

8:20It is, isn't it? I mean, I was about to say something. I think I get charmed easily by people, I think. And I want to make friends, so I'm trying to be charming too. I think maybe even if Hitler, before he did all the bad stuff, if he'd come on as a guest on Rosebud, I'd probably have made him a cup of tea and said at the end, he seems jolly nice, Giles. Well, there are stories of one of the famous Mitford sisters fell in love with Hitler before the full horror of him was known. And I think Lee Miller, you remember we interviewed the son, Anthony Penrose, the son of Lee Miller, the photographer.

8:56She saw Hitler in a restaurant or a coffee shop in Berlin with one of the Mitford girls and could see how charming Hitler could be. Gosh, this conversation's taken a turn. Well, I mean, Hitler is one of the greatest monsters of all history. There is nothing good to be said about Hitler. What we are giving is social observation here. All we are saying is that if you don't know the story, you can be charmed by people rightly or wrongly. in the case of Hitler there is no excuse apology of any kind to be made for Hitler in my view or in your view anyway and we're not likening West Street or Michael has a time to do it we are not I just went off on a tangent apologies poor Charles I threw that at him but I will say this it is odd because there was much stuff in the papers the other day when the decision apparently has been made to take Winston Churchill off the banknotes.

9:59Oh, yes. Which, why not vary the banknotes? I don't mind. They're going to put hedgehogs or squiddles on instead. But actually, I don't like the idea of eclipsing our history. No, yeah. And Winston Churchill was our wartime leader and a major figure in our island story. And I was very pleased that somebody put out on social media because there were people saying, oh, it's good, dreadful old Tory. Well, in his time, he'd been a liberal and he was a conservative, but during the war it was a coalition government. Clement Attlee was the deputy prime minister. And somebody put out on social media a picture of Winston Churchill's funeral.

10:38And I was interested to see that one of the pallbearers, one of the honorary pallbearers, was Clement Attlee, sitting in a chair because he could no longer stand up at Churchill's funeral. So you can have, come from totally different parties, be of opposing views for much of your politics, but actually treat other people in a friendly way. You've often said that was much more the case, you felt, in the old days. Much more the case. Yeah, and there wasn't this silly sort of tribalism. I mean, when I was young, I was befriended by and was lucky to learn from people like Frank Field, who was a member of Parliament in the same part of the world as me, but from an earlier generation, Michael Foote.

11:19And he was a Labour politician, Frank Field. Frank Field was a Labour politician. Michael Foote was a firebrand left-wing politician. He was very left-wing, yeah. Tony Benn, regularly used to, we lived near Tony Benn, would have me to his basement for a mug of tea to chat. Nice. Was he fun to be with? Oh, he was fascinating. Wow. He was a great diarist as well, wasn't he? He was a great diarist. That's what we had in common. But he was also a wonderful orator. And he had that skill of making complicated issues seem straightforward and simple. Oh, that's so clever. I think probably politically I would disagree with a lot of what he said.

11:55And I would think it may be simplistic. But the way he put ideas over was very compelling. So you can learn from everybody. So I don't mind who we have. Indeed, I've spent my life collecting people. I'm going to hear about some of the people I've collected. Do you want me to read a letter before we do that? Yes, we could read this. Yeah, this is on a totally different subject, actually. It harks back to something that we talked about a couple of diaries ago. Yeah, because this is Diary Day. Every other Tuesday, it's Diary Day on more Roosevelt. So this email was written to us by someone from New Zealand called Sonia de Friege.

12:32I'm not sure how you pronounce it, but it's a very cool name. What was this inspired by? She says she was inspired by listening to you. Do you remember you were talking about falling in love with someone from the window of a train? and you were saying you fell in love with this girl you just saw on the platform and I obviously mocked you a bit but Sonia writes to say don't knock it it can happen you can fall in love out of the window of a mode of transport and she tells us about when it happened to her I want to hear about that yeah then I want to tell you my Liza Minnelli story oh that's exciting did you fall in love with her out of a train window no but she and I have something in common.

13:13Oh, very interesting. Shall I read this email then? I want you to read it. Okay. Sonia writes, love at first sight happens even through a window passing by on public transport. When I was 17, this letter made it to me after this young man and I fell in love in just a few minutes as my bus paused outside his school. Our love was unrequited as sadly he died shortly afterwards. We did connect, exchange letters, it was the early 80s, and phone calls with the occasional awkward date. But it petered out, as teenage infatuation often does. And then, through an act of foolishness and bad luck, he passed away.

13:53My deep regrets to his family. Giles's train-side romance made me remember this young man with fondness, Sonia. And Sonia's included a picture of the letter that she got from this boy so you know imagine she's on the school bus and she's 15 or 16 or whatever in New Zealand and she stops outside the school sees this boy and their eyes meet and then somehow or other through a friend of a friend or a brother or something he manages to get a letter to her which is written on this piece of paper with blue byro and shall i read it please hello my name's brad and today when i rode my cool sister's bike into the school gate you looked out of the bus window and laughed i was wondering if you were laughing at me or the bike if you go around laughing at everyone i've got black hair and i was on the old red bike going very fast faster than light i glanced up and my eyes met yours I smiled, you laughed, but fate was against us and we went our separate ways.

14:57Please send your explanation for laughing, your address, your phone number and bath night in a sealed envelope so Andrew can't see and look through the window next time, Brad. So she got that letter. Oh my God. Isn't that cool? But also it's cool that she's kept it all these years. I know. This really mattered to her. Yeah. Well, there you are. Love at first sight is possible. and what I want to tell you that Liza Minnelli told me is that that love is real. I've met Liza Minnelli only twice in my life. I'd like to meet her again but she's not terribly well these days. She's published an autobiography recently and if she's well enough I hope we can have her even briefly as a guest on Rosebud.

15:43I first met her when she was over in this country in the 1970s and she was at the height of her success. Cabaret, the film, had been made. Liza, with a Z, was a hugely successful concert that was televised. She was huge. I then met her more recently, about 25 years ago, at a charity event in London, where she had come with her then-husband, David Guest. Yes, I remember. Who was a bit of an oddity, and their relationship was a bit odd. but we spent some time together and we talked about love and straight to the point don't you well we talked about love because people were mocking david she knew people were mocking david and she told me that people had mocked most of her husbands including the first husband who most people liked most of all who she eventually realized was actually gay she hadn't realized that.

16:41She said, people often say to me, you've not been very lucky in love. And she said, I have been lucky in love. And she said, it hasn't always worked. But when it was working, it was real. She fell in love with, for example, somebody called Desi Arnaz, who could he have been Lucille Ball's son? I think maybe he was. And it didn't, they were engaged, didn't go anywhere. But she said when it was good, it was really good. It was love. Momentarily, she met Peter Sellers, you know the actor and suddenly announced that they were going to get married i think they'd only met each other for 24 hours and she said but it was real it was real so because i said you know people say to me you're ridiculous charles you keep saying you've fallen in love with somebody as you do to me um but she said there are lots of different types of love and of course wouldn't it be wonderful if in life you could have love that lasted a lifetime that was mutual that was everything everybody in their ideal dreams wants it to be.

17:40She said, but when she was a small girl, she expected love to be like it was in the songs. Yes. Not in the fairy tales, in the songs. That's what she'd hoped for. And she said, if love only lasts the length of a song, it's still love. Oh, that's so lovely, Jess. So that's... Oh, gosh, that's gorgeous. That's my lesson from Liza Minnelli. How wonderful. I love that. So there we are. The girl in New Zealand, her love was real. Sonia, yeah. My falling in love with the girl through the train window was real. And all that Liza Minnelli has found in her life, as long as it lasted as long as a song, that's love.

18:19Oh, that's a great title for a song. If love lasts the length of a song, it's real. That's nice, isn't it? She should do that number. Well, never mind her doing it. Why aren't we doing it? Let's do it. You may be able to see Harriet and me on stage in the near future. watch this space. Details will be revealed soon. Is it time for reading some diaries? It is, yes. We've gone on a lot here. We have gone on a lot. Maybe cut some of it. Apologies. We're starting another year, Harriet. We've reached January 1974, which means that I'm 25 years of age and I'm still in a way trying to work out what I'm going to do with my life.

18:57I'm doing some journalism, some broadcasting, but I've discovered the theatre professionally. I'd organised this big charity gala at the Oxford Playhouse, and I've now been invited to run something called the Oxford Theatre Festival. And I'm beginning to recruit actors and directors and think of plays. All right. So let's see how we go. Monday the 14th of January, 1974. Oxford Theatre Festival update. Rita Tushingham has definitely agreed to play St. Joan. But today, she cancelled our meeting, scheduled for 11am at the Holiday Inn Heathrow. I'm not unduly worried. She's a film star. These things we must accept.

19:42I've written to Jonathan Miller, asking him to direct it. I've written to Richard Bryers, asking him to play John Worthing in The Importance of Being Earnest. To Celia Johnson, asking her to play Lady Kitty in Daphne L 'Oriola. To Alan Bedell asking him to play the title role in Duran Mutt's Romulus the Great. To Alistair Sim asking him to consider a James Bridie revival. And to Ian Carmichael asking him to consider a stage version of Lord Arthur Savile's crime. If you don't ask, you won't get. Michelle began her six-week stint on Monday Monday on BBC One this afternoon at 2.40. She triumphed.

20:29We celebrated at the Greek restaurant on Baker Street. Teremasalata, lamb kebabs, and a bottle of Othello. Most excellent. Monday Monday, I think, was a pioneering daytime magazine programme on BBC One. And Michelle was, I think, the only female host. I think the other hosts were Michael Parkinson, a young Michael Parkinson, and a man called Derek Hart who was on a programme called Tonight was very smooth and handsome. Amazing. Michelle's really at the top of her game here, isn't she? Oh, absolutely. She, she, yeah, there we are. So. I love all these letters. And I'm sending off letters. These people were all big stars.

21:13Yeah. I mean, really big stars. Many of them are names that we still remember. Yeah. And I'm writing to them saying, be in my play. And would you have written these by hand or on a typewriter? I wrote them on a typewriter. topping and telling them personally, probably adding little personal post-strips along the lines, I've so admired your work. Loved you in. Absolutely. And Rita Tushingham, who was my big catch, she was huge at that time because she'd been in a series of films in the 1960s, A Taste of Honey, Girl with Green Eyes, The Knack, Dr. Zhivago. So she was a big film star. Very beautiful.

21:47So getting her was... And who pays for all the stamps? I was paying for it all myself. And I hadn't thought through, as we all discover, who was going to pay the actors if they said yes, they were going to be in this. I know. I was just writing from our flat in Baker Street to these people, saying, would you come to the Oxford Theatre Festival and star in one of my productions? Was there no budget for it? I had no money. Oh, God. I had no money. Well, nothing's changed, John. As you will discover. Tuesday, 15th January 1974. Well, they can always say no. and some of them do i have now written to richard chamberlain asking him if he'd like to do john worthing in the importance and dunois in saint joan a little touch of dr kildare could be just what the box office needs do you remember richard chamberlain yes i do he was dr kildare i've also written to derrick nimmo and daughter brian suggesting they might consider a spot of bother the Vernon Sylvain farce.

22:50I've written to Arthur Lowe, suggesting he play Watney, that's in that play, and Toby Belch in Twelfth Night. Then maybe my friend Cyril Fletcher could be Malvolio. We shall not be asking Frankie Howard to essay his festi or anything else. Actually, we might if we're desperate. We went to the Palladium tonight to see babes in the wood. Frankie Howard sleepwalked through it. The audience wasn't much amused. Michelle was positively angry. It's so lazy, so insulting to the audience. We were in the circle. He barely looked up once. Oh dear. Wednesday the 16th of January 1974. I've written to Sir John Clements suggesting he play the Inquisitor in St.

23:40Joan. I'm just in from an evening in Pimlico with Sarah Morrison, Vice-Chairman of the Conservative Party. I was there at the suggestion of William Waldergrave. It was a gathering of bright young people. We sat on sofas, on the arms of chairs, on the thick pile carpet, while Mrs Morrison and William talked in hushed tones of the challenge to the nation of the three-day week and whispered to us that an election could come any minute now. We must be ready, and when the moment comes, we must spread out across the land to give support in marginal seats where apparently all the so-called activists are infirm and their associations moribund it is through galvanizing the youth vote that we will win the election it was exciting to be there but i don't think i endeared myself by saying repeatedly this sounds wonderful but what's the actual plan oh fair enough charles fair enough William Waldergrave had been at Oxford I remember yes you were friends with him we were friends and he later of course became a government minister anyway this is still Ted Heath, Edward Heath is the Prime Minister of the time it's interesting that the Conservatives have always struggled with the youth vote because I think people would say they still do that now well what's amusing is I say the activists are infirm and their associations moribund when I became a member of Parliament you know 25 years after this the same we were all complaining that the, you know...

25:11I think it's even worse now, probably.

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27:23All right. Sunday, the 20th of January, 1974. We are off to Joy Adamsons in a minute for an evening of bridge. I am living for the first gin and tonic. Oh, that's interesting. Those were drinking days. Yes, these were drinking days. I am a walking zombie. I began yesterday in Coventry with Simon. That's my friend Simon Cadell. We saw the Belgrade's Babes in the Wood, gentle, and the Coventry Theatre's Dick Whittington with Dick Emery, robust. Mr Emery was very friendly afterwards, in his dressing gown, in his dressing room, Fruity, flirtatious and funny. And kindly obliged with a telephone interview from the stage door at 10.30pm.

28:09Oh, I must have been doing, I'd forgotten this. I'm 25, I'm directing this theatre company. I'm also doing a weekend show or nightly show for LBC Radio. Wow. So I've got my own overnight radio show. I go to the pantomime in Coventry or wherever it is. Go round afterwards, introduce myself to Dick Emery, who was huge. Do you remember Dick Emery? Yes. Rather camp comedian. and we'd come up to people I like you and then push them over. He was very amusing. Well, it was very sweet of him to agree to do a telephone interview. We came back from Coventry and went straight to LBC where I'm doing the overnight shift, hosting Nightline from 10pm to 6am.

28:46Eight hours of talking. Just me and my guests. And once they'd gone home, the listeners, a truly bizarre collection of the sad and the insomniac. Oh dear. One fellow, apparently a regular, called in from his bar. He's an elderly queen who calls himself Charles. He is useful because he does fill the time quite entertainingly. But the trick is to get him off the line before he tells you precisely what he's doing with his rubber duck. Oh, no. This is for real. Giles. Can you imagine, though? Eight hours. Eight hours. I mean, now I know why you're so good at talking. Can you imagine? Eight hours of live radio.

29:24And it's probably only paid 20 quid or something. And no sleep. Oh. Gosh. The studio guests were Richard Bryers, very engaging, and Max Wall. These are big names. I think I booked my own guests. Can you imagine? But what were they doing up at this time of night? Well, they probably were in shows. And they'd just come off stage. And the LBC studios were in Gough Square, which is off Fleet Street. So they could come straight down from the West End. So Richard Bryers would be appearing in a play. Max Wall, who was a great clown, he had rubber legs. He was extraordinary. Anyway, holy eccentric. I put this here in the diary.

29:59It says, Maxwell, wholly eccentric, bent shoulders, wild eyes, lugubrious drawl. He ranged from the monosyllabic to the manic, for a while saying nothing in response to my questions, then suddenly pacing the studio with his trademark funny gait, announcing that he was a descendant of the Great Wall of China. Tuesday, the 22nd of January, 1974. I have spoken at length with Sir John Clements. He is going to direct Sir John. I have agreed that he can have four weeks rehearsal, a fee of£500 and£50 per week expenses. I have not told him that the money has not yet been confirmed. Do you remember I was going to get the money, I hope, from Geoffrey Archer?

30:46Yes. Yeah. And won't until we have all the plays in place. but at this stage in the game I don't have much or any alternative Ian Carmichael isn't interested in Lord Arthur Savile's crime but has come up with his own suggestion a Ben Levy farce called Springtime for Henry on the phone his agent said I haven't heard of you who are you? I've sent her my CV and the festival prospectus I imagine we'll get more of this because the truth is I was nobody and I'd done nothing And I was asking all these great names to be in my plays for money that I didn't actually have. Tonight, we're going to the panto at the Players' Theatre, under the arches at Charing Cross, as guests of Michael King.

31:33He's a very sweet man, an octoroon. His father was a half-Jamaican barrister, a character around the Inns of Court in the 1930s, which is how Pa met him. Sorry, what's an octoroon? An octoroon is somebody who is an eighth part different races. Ah. So he's an eighth part, in this case, Jamaican. Right. Or did Ma meet him first when she was reading law at London University? Why do I know none of this? Michael is an odd, solitary figure who is only properly happy at the Players' Theatre, or with Ma and Pa, or with fat ladies. I have a weakness for the fuller figure, he says, closing his eyes and tilting his head to one side.

32:18Oh, how interesting. That's quite intriguing. This was an enthusiasm of his that lasted all his life. In fact, the last time I saw him was in the room where today we're recording this. Because we're not in Park Lane today. We're at my home in London and we're in the sitting room. Harriet's on the sofa. I'm in an armchair and we're by the mantelpiece. And I can picture this man, Michael King, who I liked very much indeed. I can show you a painting of him later, Harriet. With his head to one side, again telling me, oh, how he loved the fuller figure. He said, that's why he was so fond of my mother, who had a slightly fuller figure.

33:01Now, he wouldn't even mention it or notice it, but he really... Don't make that noise, Charles. I like it because it just goes to show there's something for everyone. Absolutely. And you don't need to edit yourself or change yourself. There's someone that will love you and like you for who you are. Absolutely. And even fancy you. Yeah. In a nice way, because he was a decent man. Absolutely. This wasn't, I didn't wish to make him sound sort of ridiculous. Yeah. Because he wasn't. It was just, he was sort of sharing with me. That's what he liked. That's what he fancied. Tuesday the 29th of January, 1974.

33:35St. Joan is Confirmed. starring Rita Tushingham, directed by Sir John Clements. Springtime for Henry is confirmed, starring Ian Carmichael, directed by me. I have written to Michelle Tetris asking her to play the girl. The challenge now is to clinch Celia Johnson. I'm hopeful. I've spoken to Alistair Sim, and he's promised to hail Miss Johnson when he sees her on his afternoon stroll. They're neighbours, apparently. He is the great Bridie Buff, and he's going to tell Miss Johnson that Edith Evans, who originally played the part, while excellent, was wholly miscast, and that it is only dear Celia who can realise the role as it should be realised.

34:20The games we play. I've written to Geoffrey Archer with an update. I'm now on my way to lunch with Irene Josephi, my agent, at La Boussola. Then on to meet Una Hamilton Wright at the Grosvenor Hotel Victoria. She is the niece of Frank Richards, the creator of Billy Bunter and the most prolific published author in history. I'm hoping to do a book about him. Oh, Giles, the projects keep going on. I do see what a ridiculous person I was anyway. Tuesday the 5th of February 1974. A good day. £965.27 in royalties from the Alice in Wonderland game. Gosh, that's a lot. The world mocks while I clean up.

35:11Nearly£1 ,000, Giles. In 1974, from a game I'd invented and my contemporaries, friends, even Michelle, my parents saying to me, well, you know, what are you doing? Are you writing a book? Are you putting on plays? Are you trying to be a politician? Are you now inventing children's games? The Alice in Wonderland game, just listen to that again.

35:36£965.27p in royalties. And I felt at the time the world mocks while I clean up. Someone wrote in to say they still play that game with their grandchildren. I mean, that's lovely. And they absolutely adore it. I'm going to burst into tears again. So you might be due some more royalties there, Giles. I'll write to them and see if they owe you£10. Wouldn't that be nice if they did? But bear in mind, this is 1974. We're now 2026. I know. This was a long time ago. Anyway, on we go. As I came through the door from Cleethorpes, £34.65, I've been making a speech there, the telephone was ringing. A tinkly, distant voice, it might have been the Queen's, inquired, is that Mr Brandreth?

36:19Celia Fleming here? For a moment I wondered who it was. Then the penny dropped. It was Celia Johnson. Yes, she was married to Peter Fleming. She was the brother of Ian Fleming. Anyway, yes, I'd love to do your festival, Mr. Brandreth. Oxford's just down the road. But I don't think the play you suggested, Daphne L 'Oriola, really works anymore, do you? Of course, Edith carried it off, but Edith can carry off anything, don't you find? I'm now sending Miss Johnson the circle. Even though I've already offered the circle to Rachel Kempson and Lynn Redgrave. It's a tightrope. Thursday the 7th of February 1974 The general election has been called and Geoffrey has been in touch to say that he can't think or talk about the festival until after polling day the 28th of February This is to be the shortest election in 40 years Harold Wilson is accusing Mr Heath of making a run for it The Prime Minister, Mr Heath is saying the miners are out to challenge our democratic way of life Who runs Britain?

37:29And who pays for the Oxford Theatre Festival? I'm off to address the South Sea Ladies. £44. Tuesday, 26th February, 1974. A fatuous day on the campaign trail. Was there any point to it? With Tim Rice, I was due to lead Sarah Morrison's shock troops in an assault on Norwich and Cambridge Universities. That's Tim Rice. Yeah. you know, later. So you were campaigning with him? Yeah, because we were both sort of keen young conservatives together. Anyway, I got to Liverpool Street as agreed at 8.30am. Tim failed to show. I got to Cambridge and found the troops, a sorry bunch of chinless wonders. There was a minibus which ferried us here and there.

38:17We handed out some leaflets. We knocked on a few doors. We encountered a few students who were either completely uninterested or positively hostile. At the University of East Anglia, I attempted to say a few words on behalf of Dr. Tom Stutterford, the Conservative candidate. Nobody was listening.

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40:35Thursday, the 28th of February, 1974. One, finish writing The Night Book of Christmas Fun, my third children's book. Two, drinks with Rita Tushingham and her agent. She is charming, earnest and very excited about playing St Joan. The deal is done. And Eric Thompson is now set to direct Springtime for Henry. What, of Magic Roundabout? The Magic Roundabout. Emma Thompson's dad. Emma Thompson's dad, who was also a very sought-after theatre director. He died of a heart attack aged only 53. And I'm asking Emma Thompson to appear on Rosebud to talk about her family and her parents. Oh, fascinating. Because understandably she loved her dad and obviously I knew him going back all those days, all that time ago.

41:33I plan to direct The Circle. It's Somerset Maugham's centenary. I've written to Hayley Mills asking her to play the girl. All we need now is Celia Johnson and Geoffrey's money. I'm writing this at the parents' flat, about to watch the election results on TV. We look set to win, but it's going to be a close thing. Friday the 1st of March, 1974. A nail-biting night. Labour have 301 seats. We have 297. Mr Heath is not letting go. He has been to the palace and told the Queen that he's hoping to form a coalition with the Liberals. Jeremy Thorpe, in his pork pie bookmakers trilby and suspect coat with the velvet collar, is jumping all over the place in a state of high excitement.

42:26He has 14 seats at his disposal and is key to the whole thing. Is he the leader of the Liberals? He is the leader of the Liberals at that time. If he does a deal, he'll expect to be Home Secretary and will want some promise on electoral reform. If we had managed to get out the student vote, perhaps none of this would have been necessary. The truth is, the contribution of Sarah Morrison's young guard was nil. Wednesday, the 6th of March, 1974. Harold Wilson is Prime Minister. Heath couldn't clinch the deal. Wilson is set to govern without a majority in Parliament and was quite funny when asked what he had to say.

43:09All I can say is my prayers. It's a good line, isn't it? He was a clever man. James Callaghan is Foreign Secretary. Dennis Healy is Chancellor of the Exchequer. The miners are cock-a-hoop. All their demands have been met and the strikes are over. Who governs Britain? Not you, Ted. and who pays for the Oxford Theatre Festival now just four months away. I've written to Geoffrey Archer congratulating him on his re-election to Parliament and saying we must now meet. I'm going to phone his secretary and fix a date. I've also written with a wild idea. Michael McCleomore as Lord Porteus in the circle.

43:53I've written to him and Margaret Layton. On we go and I've started on the pantomime book and I should report on our funny supper with Dabba and Paddy Davis out in Hayes. Paddy was, they're the people who ran the agency that were sending me out on speaking engagements. Paddy was a nurse and has a raft of outrageous tales to tell of her time on the accident and emergency admissions wards. Principally, stories of men arriving in the middle of the night with unlikely objects trapped up their backside. Oh dear. Dear. Imagine Paddy's gentle Irish brogue. There was a milk bottle up the backside most nights, and not always with the neck end in first.

44:37Tuesday, 19th March, 1974. I had a meeting with Geoffrey Archer at his office at 27 Whitehall this morning. He was as bouncy as ever, but he wouldn't commit. He said he wasn't retreating, but I could see that he was. when I told him that I'd secured Celia Johnson he closed his eyes lovely actress lovely actress she's the best we have when he opened them he jumped to his feet reminded me that he'd increased his majority when all about were losing theirs and ushered me to the door it's all very exciting keep me posted keep in touch I'm your man but clearly he isn't something has changed he denied it, but something is up.

45:23Perhaps he doesn't have the money after all. And Harriet, I can tell you he didn't. Because unbeknownst to me at the time, on the 11th of March, a few days before this, he'd been issued with a high court writ demanding repayment of a loan of something like£172 ,000 with interest. And he was on the brink of bankruptcy proceedings brought about by his investment in a company called Aquablast. And the embarrassment of this caused him to step down as an MP later in the year. But then eventually to the making of his fortune because he wrote a novel inspired by that, not a penny more, not a penny less.

46:07And he was on the way back. He tells us this story or part of it, of course, when he came on to Rosebud recently. but that was a problem for me where was the money going to come from consolation lunch with michelle at the mumtaz chicken muglai my favorite oh so do you get the money shall we finish on that cliffhanger ted heath has just lost the election harold wilson is prime minister but without a majority and i have committed myself to these major stars of stage and screen rita tushkam film stars as my St Joan. Celia Johnson, the star of Brief Encounter in one of my plays. All these greats are going to be doing things for me.

46:54But I haven't the means to pay them. And I thought the means was going to be Geoffrey Archer who was going to provide all the money. And suddenly, I've got nothing. It's a dirty business. It's a frightening business. Do you get nervous when you sort of chance your arm like that? I'd be terrified. I wouldn't be able to do it. I don't think I would chance my... I'm 25. Yeah, but I just wouldn't have been able to do it. So I wouldn't do that today, and I shouldn't have done it then. But I was spinning so many plates, because you see, I was writing children's books. I was writing a book about pantomime.

47:26I was thinking about doing a book about Frank Richards, the creator of Billy Bunter. I was doing overnights at LBC. I mean, it was lunatic. And we were going down the road to the Mumtaz, which was quite a grand Indian restaurant, having lunch chicken muglai was delicious oh yum yum really was quite mild isn't it it's a mild creamy and mild that's me yeah creamy and mild that's where that extra stone came probably had it since then and also the gin and tonic oh yeah i was drinking yeah so i was living on my nerves but um because you're obviously sort of known now for having this interesting portfolio career.

48:09You know, you've turned your hand to so many things. And I think it's worked out for you in the long run. But this point, obviously, it was worrying people. Why don't you stick at something? Why don't you pick one thing and specialise? What were you thinking? I wanted to do it all and have it all, including Michelle. I wanted everything. I wanted it. And I thought, I'm going to produce plays. I want the best actors. And of course, I chose people that I either had fallen in love with when I was a child or who were hugely famous people I wanted to meet. I just wrote to them. I wanted to be a member of parliament.

48:44So that's why I did the politics thing. I thought I could do it all. Life was to be had. That was my view. But as the years go by, you discover that maybe, well, you've still got to give it a go, haven't you? Well, yeah, but to do something really well, you're probably better off just doing one thing. We know that. I later discover the three most important words in the English language, which are? Don't double focus. Correct. Yeah. But what I would say about me at that time, two things. One, I was defiant. I think that diary note about the game and how much money it earned me, I was obviously thrilled by that, in brackets, you know, mock that I'm the one who's got the money.

49:31I think I thought I can pull all this off. Yeah. I'm going to do this. I will show them. So I was slightly defiant in my head. I wanted to do it all. And I thought I could. And I did focus on what I was doing at the time. So when I was doing my overnights at LBC, I focused on that. I made sure we got good guests. When I was writing my book about pantomime, well, you saw I was going to see pantomimes during the day. So I was trying to do what I was doing properly. So I thought I could do everything. What were you? I'm 25 now, Rising 26. What were you doing, Harriet, age 35, 26? I was working at a TV company, developing TV programs, you know, coming up with ideas for TV programs for a company called Optiman that made cooking shows.

50:17They did Two Fat Ladies and a Naked Chef and things. Did any of your ideas come to fruition? I was vaguely involved with coming up with the show called The F Word that Gordon Ramsay hosted. It was a sort of cooking magazine show. Yeah, so, but I have to say, coming up with ideas for TV shows is actually awful. It's an awful job. It's terrible. It sounds really fun, and it is really fun for about three months. And you sit around in these ridiculous ideas meetings, people with trendy glasses on, saying, what about that after three months, you completely run out of ideas. It's a nightmare. And nothing ever gets commissioned.

50:57When I get an email from somebody, I look down at their signature, and we see, you know, before you get to the brackets, he, him, or her, she, her. Underneath it says what that role is. Development. If it's development, I'm prayed, I don't reply. No. Because it probably won't come to anything. Development goes nowhere. Development never develops. If you're listening to this and you're in development, you're the one exception. You are the one exception. But it's a tough gig, isn't it? Very tough. Especially nowadays. I think what I realised then, I don't know quite why I realised it, is if you want to do something, you've got to do it.

51:31So with all these people, most of these things didn't come about. I wrote to all these people. Most of them said no. We'll see who said yes when you get to what actually happened, whether the festival happened or not. But I did do it. And curiously, I worked that out with our guests on Rosebud. We're very lucky. We're very honoured and privileged by the calibre of guests we get. And sometimes people say, oh, I mean, you plan a year ahead. And the truth is, if you or I come up with an interesting or good idea, we try to make the call or send the email straight away. We know some people will say no this year, but they might say yes next year.

52:08So you've just got to do it at the time. Seize the moment. Yes. Seize the moment. Seize the moment, please, if you enjoy Rosebud, to join us for our Sunday episodes, because we are doing special Sunday episodes. I think the most popular of which are the series we're calling Family Secrets. Oh yes, we had one of those on recently. Let's ask on it the other day anyway. You talk about whether you should have therapy, Giles. It's quite honest. I know and I'm cross with myself for doing that because several people have written in saying you should. Here's my therapist's number. Well no, saying I'm a similar generation to you, I resisted it but it is useful and why?

52:48but anyway if you want to listen to the sunday episodes and it's sometimes it's me reading one of my murder mysteries sometimes it's uh us going on a trip down memory lane together and sometimes it's the pair of us just gossiping and revealing our family secrets or your family secrets you can do that by joining our club we call it the rosebud family to do that it's a fiver or something like that a month you go to www.patreon.com forward slash rosebud but you can join us in lots of other ways as well um do just listen the traditional way i know a lot of people are now watching us on youtube but i love it when people just listen to an old-fashioned podcast and then leave us a review which is lovely people say some lovely and interesting things on the reviews.

53:38So that's good. You've got a soothing voice, Giles, apparently. Did you know that? I did know that because as a result of Rosebud, I've had a call from California asking me if I would read Winnie the Pooh stories for an app company that makes go-to-sleep apps. Oh, they're big. And I thought, well, they were offering serious money. Whoa,£964. And, and, and. Think how much money that was 50, 60 years ago. It's pretty good. It's amazing, isn't it? But anyway, it's by the by. Do you know what I thought? And this shows you my commitment to you and to Rosebud. I thought, well, if it's a good idea, why don't, when I finish the murder mystery, or me as an extra, I could do some maybe Winnie the Pooh stories or other stories to ease people to sleep in this for free as part of the rosebud service.

54:38Yeah, good idea. Do some rosebud sleep episodes. Yes, nod off with Giles. Yeah, I listened to somebody on an app who does a sleep thing. She just describes really boring things in detail. So I listened to one where she's describing tidying her kitchen pantry, rearranging the jars and the tins and taking everything out. And I listened to her doing that and that's meant to make you nod off. I'm doing the gratitude list oh yeah not when I go to bed because I go to bed I sleep immediately but at five in the morning when I wake up with so much anxiety terrible time I wake up having listened the night before to the last episode of Rosebud and thinking actually I wish she could re-edit that bit oh sorry what's the bit I've listened to an hour and I wasn't writing notes how I get a caller how do I tell her in a nice way that it's brilliantly edited but there was a little glitch there which I want to have dealt with so my stomach is churning with all of that.

55:31So instead, I'm now doing at five in the morning gratitude. Nice. From the day before. Yeah. And I begin with the family. And I've taken to doing my parents first, then my wife, my children, my grandchildren in date of birth. Then you'll be pleased to know I get to you. Oh. So I'm often asleep before I get to you. Oh, good. Which is good. So what I want to do, actually, is I want to thank the listeners. Oh, yes. Yeah, because you, you're listening to this. It's you. we really like the fact that it's you so thank you for being there because without you the whole thing would be pointless thank you for listening this has been another Diaries episode next Tuesday it'll be something else more Diaries in a fortnight join the club if you want to have us on Sundays otherwise every Tuesday, every Friday it's Rosebud with Giles Brandreth produced by Harriet Jane hooray hopefully I didn't cut out the wrong bit this time no it's not the cutting no I can never remember what you've cut out you needn't worry about the cutting out it's if there's a turn of phrase or there's sometimes because sometimes we do edit them very slightly very rarely do we do much editing I must say that's what you think I do spend ages on it well I know you spend ages on it but are you a slow worker or what are you the point is if it hasn't been perfection because I do believe we have to continue aiming for perfection don't you?

56:53yeah absolutely I think we do we want to be the perfect people you certainly you deserve it you deserve it I told you my Frank Sinatra story didn't I I meant to be saying goodbye I'll tell you the Frank Sinatra story next time I've told it to you before I think I have about the suit oh yeah you sold us you heard the Frank Sinatra story if not there's hundreds of hours of back catalogue to listen through to until you get to Frank Sinatra but from Giles and from Harriet for this week it's goodbye

57:28Have you finished recording now? Oh yes, she's mouthing something at me. It's Boo the Whozick? No, it's Cue the Music!

58:02Thank you.

58:25Phil Leppard, production by Harriet Jane, and in the chair, me, Charles Brandreth. Thank you for listening.

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