More Rosebud - Jodie Harsh

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2:26Harriet, what's your middle name? Anne. So you're Harriet Anne Jane. Yes. Can you ask me what my middle name is? What's your middle name, Giles? Daubarney. Can you believe it? I'm Giles Daubarney Brandreth. So this proves that sometimes more is too much. you don't need to be Anne in the middle I certainly don't need to be Dauberny in the middle sometimes more is excessive but not on a Tuesday when it comes to Rosebud the more the merrier as far as we're concerned welcome to more Rosebud now you set cue the music

3:21This is Rosebud. In fact, this is more than Rosebud. It's More Rosebud. We appear twice a week, every Friday we are here with an interview. It's just me talking to somebody of interest. Well, today it's me talking to somebody of great interest, but I'm not doing it alone, because always on a Tuesday, which is the day when this particular More Rosebud drops, I'm joined by my friend and producer Harriet Jane. I thought you were saying that I was the person of great interest because you're talking to me. You are of huge interest to me. I'm not actually. I'll tell you what I want to talk to you about and it's dressing up in the clothes of the opposite sex.

4:04I'm thinking about that because they're doing another reprint of my autobiography. Well, it's a childhood memoir, really, called Odd Boy Out, published by Penguin while we're plugging things. And they sent me proofs to have a look at, including the illustrations, lots of illustrations. And I see that one of the spreads has pictures of me in, well, fishnet tights, dressed as Dorothy from The Wizard of Oz, dressed as Lady Bracknell, dressed as a pantomime dame. Another page seems to have me dressed as Rosalind in As You Like It. And the picture editor was going through these pictures and he said, oh, is there a theme developing?

4:52He said, no, these just happen to be pictures in the book. They said, oh, you seem to do quite a lot of that. And it suddenly occurred to me, did you ever want to dress up as a boy? Harriet. I don't think I have, actually, no. It was quite a big thing in Victorian times for girls to dress as boys. The origin of the principal boy in pantomime goes back to, well, early Victorian times. There was a famous actress called Madame Vestris, who would often appear en travestie, as it was described to make it seem respectable, using the French. And she appeared in sort of tight leggings, looking like a principal boy from a pantomime, because it was an opportunity for people to go to the theatre and see women's legs, which in early Victorian days you couldn't really do.

5:40But it became very fashionable. And there were all sorts of women who dressed as principal boys. But then there became a fashion for women entertainers to dress as men, white tie, top hat, tails, elegant men. Famously, there was somebody called Vesta Tilly. And there was, oh, I'm trying to remember the lady I saw, Hattie King. She was quite old by the time I saw her, appearing at a music hall in London called the Players Theatre, underneath the arches at Schoencross Station. And she was, I suppose, in her 80s by the time I saw her. She looked very stylish. And she came on as a sailor. Oh. Yeah, in a sailor's outfit.

6:24And it was rather fun. So there's been a vogue for girls dressing as boys, as there has been over the years, for men dressing as women. Yeah, but it's... I suppose nowadays... You know, in Victorian times, women wore long skirts and crinolines and things, so dressing as a boy was more difficult. Whereas now, you can just wear trousers whenever you like. Indeed, what are you wearing today? You are wearing a sort of... Yeah, I mean, I'm not dressed as a man, but I'm wearing trousers. So, I suppose the urgency for women of... or the frisson of wearing men's clothes, inverted commas, is slightly gone.

7:05I mean, I can imagine what I could wear to look more blokish. So when you see a woman in a tie, for example, I saw a woman the other day in a tie and a waistcoat and a shirt, and I thought, that looks cool. It was a kind of, yeah, men's outfit. She looked great. But I think it's less clear now when a woman's dressed as a man, because women wear clothes that the Victorians would have considered to be men's clothes. Whereas men dressed as a woman is still a novelty. When we talked to Grayson Perry, obviously he told us that dressing as a girl was for him a fetish. There was a kind of sexual frisson.

7:42And I don't think when the kind of people I'm talking about dressed as boys, the girls who dressed as boys, I don't think it was a fetish. I think it was more style. But wasn't it associated with lesbianism? Oh, that's a different thing. I don't know about these performers you're talking about. That sounds like a performing thing. That was a performing thing. Which it is for many drag artists now. And they were doing it as a performance and it was rather stylish. They came on in a sailor suit, in a white tie, top hat and tails. And they did a number. I'm Burlington Bertie. I rise at 10. They did a song.

8:16And that's their act. Yes. But there definitely were women in the Bloomsbury set, for example, who dressed boyishly or blokeishly, and they were gay, and that was partly... Yes, you're right. It may have been partly, there may have been a frisson, may have also been sending out a signal. Or just a rejection of the norms of femininity. I think it was more about that. Now, the reason we're chatting about this is because I have got a book in my hands, which I'm reading and finding completely fascinating, called You Had to Be There by Jodie Harsh. Now, Jodie Harsh is a drag performer, a DJ, described to me by one of my colleagues at this morning as the Queen of Soho.

9:03You've got Jodie Harsh. We have got Jodie Harsh. Yes. In full drag. In full drag. So this is our first rosebud with someone in full drag. But curiously, we're looking at one person, but there will be two people there. And the other person is Jay Clark, because Jodie Harsh was born Jay Clark. And how one becomes the other and their journey is what our conversation is going to be about. We have a boy born in Canterbury, brought up, realizes he's different, gradually realises he's gay or queer and then eventually doesn't just come out he's outed creates tensions within his family particularly with his father and then he gets onto the scene in London well it's an amazing story it's a roller coaster and I think people will very much enjoy it yeah it involves escaping from the house by the bathroom window which I know is a bit you enjoy Giles because I think you've done that in your time haven't you?

10:04shinning down a drain pipe or whatever you had to do that's for another episode yeah no it's fun it's fun this is a fun one yeah and it's very interesting and it's actually what i love about rosebud in a way is it's a kind of social commentary it's a time capsule somebody was saying to me the account by dame sean phillips of the wartime in south wales was so evocative. Yeah. So on Rosebud, you can get literally the wall in South Wales from someone like Dame Sian Phillips. And you can get somebody like Jodie Harsh telling us about the scene in Soho. The club scene in Naughty's London. Exactly. Yeah.

10:49That's what Rosebud is here for. Which obviously Giles was a big, big part of as well. So Giles and Jodie really reminisce together about that. Stay tuned, Harriet. You may find that I know more about all this than you realise. I've been to places even before you were born. I was doing fun things. Right, Giles. Say it. Cue the music.

11:25Well, I'm with Jodie Harsh. And Jodie, how have you been? How are you? I've been great. I've been a busy few weeks. I'm sort of coming down off a wild couple of weeks, really. DJing? DJed for Madonna. Forgive me, for Madonna. For Madonna. The one and only. The one and only. Where was this? What was this about? She got me in to open for her in her Confessions 2 album launch. She'd sort of threw this massive warehouse party in East London on the eve of the album coming out. So is that the essence of how you earn your living now? You are a DJ. DJ, exactly. DJ to the stars. Yeah. And you've worked with the stars because you've also been a songwriter, song producer.

12:06Yeah, I've worked with Charlie XCX and people like that. And Kylie mentioned your name to me. Kylie, yeah, absolutely love her. Another person I grew up with, posters of her on my wall. And I opened for her concert tour last summer. So I love Kylie. I mean, she's impossible not to love. Well, can I tell you, Kylie loves you. Oh, that's very sweet. It's a two-way street. I love her. So, that's what you're doing now, but I want to take you right back to the beginning, because you are Jodie Harsh, here with me today, but you were born Jay Clark on the 21st of February 1985. That's absolutely correct.

12:46And at home, if we met at home, I'd be calling you Jay. Jay, yeah. Jay Day Today, and then obviously the presentation of the performance. Well, I'm glad you've come in performance mode. Of course, always. And ready for action. Gotta turn it on. Can I say not just turning it on, but we hope turning us on. Yes. But we'll come to that later. Okay. Jay Clark, 21st February 1985. What, Jodie, Jay, what is your very first memory? My first memory is London. the first time I ever remember being alive um sat on a gorilla at London Zoo not an alive gorilla but there's there's a statue of a gorilla in London Zoo and I remember it being a special day because we traveled I was with my grandparents we traveled on a coach tour up into London we went to London Zoo and I remember it being an extraordinary day because I was away from Canterbury where I where I was born and grew up.

13:44And I remember being far away from home and that being an exciting experience. Well, London is central to your life. When I told people, friends of mine, at the television programme this morning, they said, oh my God, Jodie Harsh, Queen of Soho. You are London for many people. But take us back to Canterbury. That's where you were born. It's where I was born, yeah. And who were your parents? Your mother gave birth to you. Who is or was your mother? My mother is, she's still around and she's thriving and she's recently divorced and she's absolutely loving life. She's a very, she's a very close friend, I would say to me as well.

14:20What's her name? Linda. Linda. Yeah, Clark. Linda Clark. Yes, yes. And what sort of person was she when she was young and met your father? My mum's a lot more quiet than I am. My dad was a little more outgoing. I think I get my performance side from my father. My mum's always been a little more, timid's probably the wrong word, but reserved. I had very, very loving parents growing up. My dad not so much when I hit my mid-teens. But my family, we were a very close-knit family and lots of love. And who was your father? My father was Alan. He passed away a few years ago. he really he really helped evolve my and encourage my creative flair.

15:07What did he do for a living? He was a colour artist so he'd get sent prints from places in London and watercolour them in but like amazing war prints and things. And he did that at home? Yeah he did. We converted the loft into his studio space and there was always lots of music playing in there and I'd go up and hang out in the loft and we listened to David Bowie and Prince and Madonna. So you saw a lot of your parents when you were a child yeah all the time did they get on well then your parents they did up until they divorced when i was about 16 i i believe i was probably the catalyst of their divorce um i i kind of threw a cat amongst the pigeons and it was probably a long time coming anyway by that point the divorce you mentioned of your mother just now is her second divorce yes good yes okay i say good it happened we just had to accept it she's out single and thriving Living her best life.

15:57So going back to you as a little boy, born in Canterbury, the eldest child? Eldest child. One sibling? One sister, a couple of years younger. Good. And what were the games you played as a little boy? I would perform for my family a lot. I would do sort of Michael Jackson renditions and performances with my pants outside my trousers and do make up silly characters. I think when I was younger, I think I thought I was famous. And were they performers themselves? My dad was in a band. He was in a, I'm definitely not a Nepo baby. It was just a pub to pub touring band. I think he was probably a frustrated rock star.

16:40He got sober when my sister was born. Yeah, really, really encouraged my musical knowledge and my artistic streak. And who was your first friend outside of home? Samuel who like me was interested in the performing arts and I remember Samuel we fell out because there was a touring production of Julius Caesar which came to the Marlow Theatre and we both went to an audition to play a minor role in it and Samuel got the part and I didn't and And Samuel, for a week, had to go on stage, on a real stage, in front of real people, and perform for five minutes every night. And I remember being so resentful and so jealous that it really terminated our friendship.

17:28Yeah, it really ate me up. Has that been a characteristic of your life? It's something I worked on quite early on in my sobriety. As I started going through the steps and also started therapy, traditional therapy, I worked on jealousy and resentment. Gosh, we're jumping ahead. I mean, when did you come to grips with becoming sober? I know it was about, yes, it was about 16 years ago? 16 years ago, exactly. I'm 25 years old, and I woke up one morning and realized with probably the worst hangover I'd experienced thus far, I realized I can't drink or take drugs anymore. Good. And that's when you began to get to grips with everything, including the jealousy that you knew had been there since you were.

18:09How old were you when you met your friend? Oh, we were probably five, six. We were friends, I think, from about four. And I think Julius Caesar was probably around eight or nine. Yeah. I just remember it completely ate me up because he was getting an opportunity to perform and I was rejected. So rejection has been a theme of my life as well. So the contented years when you're a little boy are good years. Oh, definitely. Do you have your own room? and share with your sister? I do, yep, yep. And describe the room to me. Covered water wall in posters, pop music, Kylie Minogue, boy bands. At one point I collected butterflies and they were in sort of ornate cages.

18:59Oh, cages, I mean live butterflies. Yeah, live butterflies, yeah. Gosh. There was a place that you could order the pupae from, I think a place in East Sussex and they'd sort of ship them in and you'd have them on cotton wool in the base of this sort of cage and they'd eventually... This probably isn't encouraged nowadays. No, I think it's probably quite cruel. But you love the idea. Yeah, and I used to open the gates of this cage and let them sort of fly around the room and then kind of cup them and put them back into their cages and they'd live for, you know, two weeks or however long the life of a butterfly is.

19:36Moths, lots of moths. Moon moths, atlas moths. we've had some interesting memories of childhood this is the first one that's included butterflies flying around the bedroom yeah and did you in them did you see yourself in them what did you love about the butterflies there's a nice vision isn't it sort of releasing them and having them fly around um and could you get them back though into the cage yeah i'd cup them in my hands and sort of gently place them back in and place them on their flower um and did you name them No, I don't think so. I don't think they lasted long enough to name. I also had gerbils and Russian dwarf hamsters.

20:14And they bred like crazy. And I remember waking up one morning and there were about 100 hamsters in this sort of cage system that I had. And I was an early entrepreneur and I had this wild dream of selling them to pet shops and no pet shops were taking them. So I think I just sort of donated them to one pet shop. And your first school? My first school was in a village outside Canterbury. a very lovely place where creativity was also encouraged do you have a favorite teacher from that first school mrs marston who um encouraged also um my performing she cast me as a scarecrow in the wizard of oz uh you know which is the lead boy role and um i was determined to get that role and i was in the same year as samuel keller and i think he was like the cowardly lion which as you know it's too too down on the on the credits and so that was that was small win i loved it i loved performing and shortly after i moved to secondary school mrs marston died um she swerved i think to avoid a pheasant or something in the street and and died in a car crash how did that affect you i was very upset by that yeah she was like a second mother so she was the significant other grown up in your life definitely but you felt really comfortable with both your parents yes and did you sense they were comfortable with each other in those days uh yes i do yeah there was no yeah uh then you go to secondary school and this is aged 11 age 11 secondary school hated it straight away yes um immediately felt very different to everyone else in my class i guess it's everyone sort of coming from other places and having to forge new friendships new people New people, yeah.

21:54And what was this school? It was called Barton Court, and it was in Canterbury. And it was a regular state school? Regular grammar school, yeah. I came from a place where being different was probably encouraged in my primary school, to sort of kids having opinions on other kids and things in the secondary school. So how obviously different were you? Immensely. So describe yourself, aged 11, 12, compared with the other boys in the school. Was it a co-ed school? Were there boys and girls? Co-ed, yeah. I was definitely more feminine. I hated sports. I got on very well with the girls, the naughty girls, the pretty slash naughty girls, you know, the ones that started smoking at 13, and we'd all sort of hang out, and you know, they were covered in gold rings, and just kind of probably sleeping with boys, and things like that, and I just thought, oh, so cool.

22:44And so I gravitated towards the naughty girls, and I wasn't particularly bullied, but I was certainly noticed and called out and perhaps teased for being different. Did you look girly? Did you want to look girly? Not especially, not especially, but I was quite camp in my mannerisms for sure. Like it was, it was, it was completely apparent that I was different. The queer was shining out of me from a young age. Yes. But were you conscious that the queer was shining out of you or was your sort I am as I am? A combination of, I was conscious and I was never, I was never scared of it and I've always been quite comfortable in my own skin in that regards.

23:25When did you become aware of the concept of gay or whatever it was then called because it's changed the words over the years? Was it gay in those days? Yeah yeah um probably my dad using the word puff around the house not directed towards me at first but perhaps people in the newspapers George Michael being dragged out of the closet Stephen Gately being dragged out of the closet. And do Do you think that your father was using a word like poof and talking about these other people because he was anxious or about you and aware? Do you think he was deliberately doing this in the margins because he couldn't quite confront you?

24:00A hundred percent. That's exactly. And I've got to the bottom of that in therapy as well. I've kind of decided that that's probably what was happening. I've also wondered whether my dad may have had some sort of suppressed homosexuality with him as well. he's not here to defend himself but i have always that's been at the back of my mind as well so how did that manifest itself at home because if he had anxieties about it did he eventually share those with you um lots of tutting and eye rolling if i was if i had if my if my hand was limping knock it back into place and it's these sort of microaggressions that can really get to a child there was never um shouting and there was certainly never physical violence in my home but he's just kind of like micro taps.

24:44And did this worry you? I mean, did it make you closer to your mum than him? Yes, obviously. Definitely made me closer to my mum. And was she noticing this in you? I don't think as much as my dad. And I think she thought it would be something that I might grow out of, or my parents didn't have gay friends, and they grew up in a different time around different people, and so I can't blame them for anything. So you never discussed it with them? Certainly at the time, you never discussed it with them? Not until I came out. I think the sort of worry about, like, AIDS and things like that was still very prevalent in the media and I think I think because you were born in the middle of it right in the middle of it yeah and so I think you know gay AIDS was a concern as well so we have a worried father a suppressed maybe worried mother we don't know and you said that the tension between them about this may have slightly later was when they went So when did you decide in your head, I am gay and I'm going to tell people?

25:41When I was, I knew by 13 or 14 and I acted on it around 15. And then when did you, had you begun having crushes on? Yeah, definitely. People in boy bands and on TV and characters in Biker Grove and all that kind of stuff. And I acted quite young on this as well. 15 years old. Yeah. How did you act upon it? What does that mean? I went to London. Oh, you went to London? Oh, so it wasn't another boy at school. No, no, I didn't do anything like that at school. Were there any teachers, though, who took an interest in you at school? Later on, around the... Yeah, actually around the same time that I went to London, there was a headmaster.

26:20You already write about him in your book. Yeah, he was a headmaster who doubled up as an English teacher. Ah, and as I recall, and you can explain this, he is genuinely interested in you and is rather a good teacher. Amazing teacher, yeah. So tell us the story. What were we studying? It was a Dickens. It was Hard Times. It was one of the Dickens books. And there was lots of private tuition and lots of... Which you volunteered to give. Yes, yeah. And you were about 15 at the time. I'm 15, yeah. Lots of getting close. Lots of pulling the wall over my family's eyes. Grooming, essentially. You didn't sense it was that at the time?

27:04I mean, or maybe you did. An element of me, I think, probably did. And there were lots of presents being bought and things like that. And I have to think back to being a 15-year-old child and how great I'm getting a bottle of CK1 for doing nothing. So I'm not going to say no to that. As a 15-year-old child, I'm not going to say no to that. I didn't see anything wrong with it. And he came round to your house to do this, to do the extra teaching. Yes, and I'd go to his as well. Yeah, yeah. But nothing inappropriate happened. It was just... Never, never. But looking back in retrospect, it was absolutely inappropriate.

27:39And I'm so lucky that nothing further happened. Did you blow the whistle eventually? Because I know he moved from that school and eventually ended up, I think, in Austria. And he is now dead. Yeah, he died. And my parents really had no... My dad was quite distant by this point. My mum wasn't really... Your dad had become distant from the family or from you particularly? From me particularly. and that situation. Did that make you sad at the time? Or you just carried on? No, I just carried on by this point. I've always sort of had the feeling that it's just his problem. I'm comfortable in myself and this is more his problem than mine.

28:17If he can't deal with me, then F him, basically. And you coped with the grooming headmaster. You just let it happen and nothing actually happened. Exactly. It gradually just dissipated. It faded. Exactly, yeah. You probably realised he wasn't getting anywhere. Exactly, yeah. And you were growing up when you thought, I don't need this anyway? Absolutely. Anyway.

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30:26So you realize that you want to do something with your newfound awareness of your sexuality. I'm now 15. Come on. I'm a man as far as I was concerned. Yeah, I was an adult. And so you go to London. I get the train to London. I mean, is it unbeknownst to your parents? They were asleep. Oh, you mean by night you go? Absolutely. Out the bathroom window. Oh, please. This sounds like a movie. I know. I hope it will be a movie. give me the time of year the date the how the window opened was it to open that way or did you have to pull it up pull does it climb down a ledge um what floor are you on the first floor first floor yeah so you climb out of your bedroom window bathroom window bathroom window yeah yeah quite a small window then yep yep got to canterbury east station hold on okay what are you wearing um i'm wearing civvy clothes and then in my in my bag i have a crop top that says soho in diamantes that i'd shoplifted from new look okay that i'm asking for the detail yeah yeah so you've got do you have a little bag with you i do have a backpack and you throw that to the ground first um i i think so yeah yeah that's essential can i say yeah escaping yeah because if you don't do that you don't jump yeah once you've thrown that down because he's got the keys to get back in yeah yeah it was we were very close to the ground but they're on the first floor it was a very small so you jump from the first floor bathroom window what time of night is it this is probably about 10 30 at night yeah and your parents have gone to bed my parents were a bed my parents are none the wiser yeah yeah and you walk how fast to get to the station a 10 minute walk yeah and they were by this point as well 15 i was staying with friends houses a lot there was lots of movement you know so they might have expected you to be away 100 % yeah and I was a great liar and you get onto the last train to London yeah from Canterbury East through the Medway Towns through Bromley South into London and what's going through your head see if you can remember sense of excitement panic panic what have I done where am I going what am I doing but I was attracted to London like a fly to fly paper it was like a flare did you know where to go in London I did, yeah, yeah, to right into Soho and to particularly the London Astoria.

32:41And you'd read about this? Yeah, yeah. You'd never been before? No, no. So London Astoria's right by Tottenham Court Road. Tottenham Court Road, it was, yeah. Tube station, you came out of the tube station, you turned right and then right again. Yeah, exactly. Began walking down, forgive me. You must have been through Astoria. Indeed, I have been. Who knows if I could have met you in 1990, which is what the year was. Oh, no, this would have been 2000. Yeah. 85, 95, yes, 2000, forgive me. This may have been almost 2001. Yeah. Yeah, probably on the... So you're coming up for 16. Yeah, yeah. Still way too young to be doing all this.

33:21Of course. But here we are. But there you are. You get out of the tube. Yeah. And you walk down the street. Yeah. And you buy a ticket. What happens? I line up outside the London Astoria, full of nerves, tummy full of nerves. Have you put on your top by then? Oh, yeah, I'm absolutely ready. There's gel. There's probably glitter gel in my hair. And where do you change? In the train? In the rancid toilet on the train. Yeah, yeah. Somewhere probably between Gillingham and Chatham. Good, that's where it was. And you put your nice little outfit, your suit and things back in the... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

33:52And how much money have we got on you? I've probably got about 40 quid, including train ticket. Minimal. So how much would it cost to get in? £10. Did you have courage from drinking or taking anything at that time? I definitely drank. I probably drank on the train. I tasted alcohol by this point many times. I was drinking with friends at the weekend. And I remember the first time I ever had a drink, it was by myself, at home. I bought a big bottle of, is it White Lightning? Yeah. Strong stuff, that. And I drank a lot of it. I remember I was watching Graham Norton on TV. and Graham was like spinning around in circles.

34:34It was like the early So Graham Norton show. And I went out into the garden. I was probably 14 at this stage and everything came up. Yeah. But by the time you were 16, you were handling it better. But nonetheless, there you are. You go into the London Astoria. I get in. And do you think, yes, because they obviously let you get in because you were too young. Yeah, I think I just kind of dipped my head down. I had a fake ID. Oh, which you had made. Yeah, I bought it from a store, and you could just get fake NUS cards. And I think they were just very slack there. And I just sort of flashed my ID.

35:13There was a very young crowd at the Astoria. And what did you feel when you went in? Nerves, excitement, anticipation. Happy or just elated? Elated. Elated. I remember the double doors swinging open and looking out into the vast main room of the Astoria and seeing thousands and thousands of people and thinking, oh my God, I'm not alone anymore. I remember the relief of that, of seeing thousands of gay people, literally. Tops off, kissing, sweaty room, smelling of poppers and, you know, and I just thought, I'm home. Is that when you had your first boy-on-boy kiss? Many, that first night. That first night?

35:56Yeah, for sure. If you're there, go for it. Absolutely. That was your view. immediate sexual liberation. I think that is the first time I ever kissed someone. I'm pretty sure it is, yeah. Yeah. And that was the beginning of really what was 10 years of... Excess. Of excess. Yeah, yeah. Tell me the best of the 10 years and then the worst. The best of the 10 years would be hanging out with people from every walk of life and just mixing with the most fabulous friends in high places, friends in low places. Give me a specific example. Give me the best night that you can remember. Oh, my Lord. Who was there?

36:35What happened? Getting invited to award shows. And I remember being invited to the Brit Awards and then being at some afters with Rihanna and Mark Ronson and Amy Winehouse, who I was friends with at the time. And just thinking, oh, my God. You say we're friends with Amy Winehouse. Did you feel you were real friends? Definitely. Yeah. So what do you share with us of Amy and your friendship? She was living in the middle of Camden, up the road from where my flat was at the time. We'd hang out together with lots in the day. She'd go for days without sleeping, obviously, for obvious reasons. And so sometimes you'd get her in all different states, but she was fundamentally a lovely human being.

37:20Very caring, very nurturing. She'd always have friends around her. um you would go around she had a sunbed in her house i'd go around and have a sunbed um and there was obviously lots of madness around as well but i was in a it was in an absolute mad stage of my life as well so because you were going up all night some nights being crazy most nights most nights yeah when then did you leave home i left home at 18 to go to london the college of fashion yeah so the moment in these early years of going to london you're just going for the day you're going for the day all the night you're staying away a few nights you're sleeping on other people's floors exactly etc day trips just like that and first day at the zoo tell me about the worst if our night with amy winehouse and others is the best what's the worst in that 10 years between 16 and 25 so many bleak kind of late mornings still being up and lots of drink and drugs.

38:20What is late morning? I mean, it's when you've not been to sleep at all. I mean, sometimes it's 48 hours. 48 hours a week, sustained by drink and drugs. And what are the drugs that one takes to keep you going? I took a lot of cocaine and drunk lots of alcohol. They were my two main things. And how could you afford this? Oh, at the time I was DJing and I was throwing parties and I was, I think my absolute worst, I was probably 21, 22, 23, 24. So at this stage, I was sort of in the workforce of London Clubland. And during those nine, ten years, were you being very promiscuous? I've always been quite a sexually open person, and so promiscuous, I don't know if that's the exact...

39:02No, you're correcting me quite rightly. Yeah. You wouldn't see it as promiscuous. I don't think so. Some people, people outside, and that's probably why I automatically use the word... Would call me a slag. No, not necessarily. They might call some people a slag. But they would think that in the gay world, there is a more casual approach to physical contact between gay people than you might find among hetero people. I don't know whether that is true or not, but that would be the perception. Definitely would be a perception. And I think that isn't always the case. And I think sometimes it is the case.

39:39than I know heterosexual people who are more promiscuous than some of the queer people I know, and vice versa. But in the openness that you had, how quickly did you work out the difference, and is there a difference, between love, a loving relationship, and an exciting sexual relationship? Encounter. Yeah. And what is the difference, and can both be kept in parallel? I think both could be kept in parallel. I think intimacy and conversation and a deeper connection with love. And sometimes you just want to scratch an itch. And if there's two consenting parties or three consenting parties, then why not?

40:27We're here once. Good. Yeah. So you're going to London. Yeah. You ran away in the middle of the night. Yeah. When did your parents discover that you've been to London? quite soon into my nocturnal adventures and did you go out of the that window more than once oh definitely yeah that was your means of exit absolutely yeah several times um over over several successive weekends and then i was very open with friends at school about it and i um about you know i was telling them i was i was slept with this guy and i he took three pills and i and we went here and we went there. And out of concern, they told my teacher, Mr.

41:11Bailey, and he... Mr. Bailey, the headmaster? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The person who had a complicated interest in you? Yeah, yeah. Wow. They innocently went to him because they were worried about you. Yes, exactly. And was this boys in your class or probably girls? This was girls. It was a mixed group, but it was mainly girls. and it was well-intentioned you think i think it was i actually as i was writing the book i got in touch with with one of them um on instagram and had a chat with them about it i got their number and i had a chat with them about it was quite therapeutic and they said it was well-intentioned yeah um so what did he do mr bailey he told my parents well probably as the headmaster that was the right thing to do because without telling me first there was no conversation he didn't bring you in and say look we've got a problem here yeah i think the ethics in the situation are quite gray um um so he went to see your parents he called them up he called them up yeah because he knew them because he'd been around the house exactly trying to ingratiate himself with them yeah while he was grooming you and so this could also have been part of a some kind of very strange controlling controlling this about your boy yeah absolutely yeah and subsequently ruined my life as I saw it in that stage because what happened my trips to London were cut my I was tell me forgive me sorry the day this happens Mr Bailey reports to your parents and then what happens literally the detail I get home from school um my sister is dropped off um to my grandmother's house um and I'm sat opposite my parents they're sat on a two-seater sofa and I'm opposite them and they challenge me on what they've heard.

42:58Ask me if it's true. Does your father lead this? Yes, mum's crying. Dad is angry slash confused slash wanting to get to the bottom of this slash disappointed. I think everyone's worried, including me, about what this situation means. And how old are you? I'm 15, about to turn 16. it's so many emotions and it was so traumatic um to be dragged out of the closet to have the power of of coming out to my parents taken away from me by someone else um i just felt like it was when it was obviously a complete betrayal um i was worried about my the new london life that i'd started forming and the new friends that i'd started grouping around myself um who i was comfortable with who i was having fun with who was going out with and the clubs themselves I was going to all that was suddenly ripped away from me because your father said you cannot go to London anymore yeah yeah absolutely I'd been found out and you felt you had to obey um I was trying to work out ways around it and I couldn't see a way out because I still wanted to carry on and go out and I was I've always been such a like I said I was so cocky I was like how do I still go to London how did that day end your mother's in tears was there any hugging was there there was no reconciliation at the end of the day no no did you cry yeah definitely in my room afterwards yeah i'm in my room i'm crying i'm worried i'm i did the the suicidal thoughts were rolling around in my head i think that's the only only time in my life i've ever thought what's the point in being alive that definitely rattled around in my head and was there anyone you could talk to did one have phones in those days yes we started to have mobile phones in those days so and i did text a few people saying i can't see you anymore this has happened that there was there was a bit of that like don't contact me don't so how did the next phase go um with your parents and being at home and my dad stopped talking to me entirely my dad um wouldn't say anything to me he'd eat his dinner in a different room yeah yeah there was he completely cut me off living under the same roof and if your dad was in the house when you left it did you slam the door a bit more loudly than you did definitely lots of that to be honest i got queerer i probably blasted kylie louder the evita soundtrack louder yeah i and i got quite into female rap little kim missy elliott lots of expletives and i just turn it up to full volume yeah but at school you went back to school you went got on with your work I did.

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47:37Can you remember the moment you first dressed up as a girl? I well 18 years old early early London days I'd already been hanging I was back on the club scene at this point um and I'd found my my ways yes because you're 18 by then and you're going to yeah and even at seven exactly and even at 17 I think my parents just thought we can't control your father had given up on you my father given up and your mother still loved you and did her best. Exactly. I think they just gave up on handcuffing me to canterbury. But they so fundamentally disagreed about you and it was a tension in the house that they began to move apart as well.

48:15Definitely, yeah. Once you began eating meals in a different room. Yeah, yeah. The marriage was over, really. And I'm pretty sure I was the catalyst. Yeah. There were obviously underlying problems, as there would be, but... It's always complicated, isn't it? I imagine it kind of came to... Their marriage came to blows at the same time as my dad's disowning of me. So back to the, at a club, and this is your first time thinking, I'm going to dress as a girl. Yeah, I'm hanging out with drag queens at this point. I've kind of found my way into some groups of friends that included some drag queens.

48:48I've always hung out with people that are older than me, and they're getting me into clubs for free at this stage. And I just thought, this is so glamorous. We're at heaven. We're in the departure lounge at heaven, and they've got drinks tickets in their handbag. and I don't have to buy my own drink at the bar. When you say heaven, you mean literally the club heaven at Charing Cross. Literally heaven under the, which you've probably been to. I've been to, I have to tell you, rather alarmingly, I first went to heaven before you were born. I was taken to heaven by my friend Noel Davis. Okay, yeah.

49:16Who thought we'd had quite a merry evening. It was an extraordinary evening, actually, which another time I'll tell you all about. But the first part of the evening concluded with a pair of us on our knees doing a salam to someone who got out of a car in the west end of London and the person who got out of the car was Yul Brynner yeah an actor who played the king of Siam of the king and I right and Noel got me down on my knees and we bowed and we said welcome to England oh king of Siam and that got Noel going and he said we're going to heaven okay and he said literally and he took me down to heaven and it certainly was extraordinary in those days the wages were on roller skates with little white silk shorts.

49:58Wow. And it was quite fun. Was the fish tank in the departure lounge? It certainly was. Yeah, yeah. Dead fish floating on the top. It was, anyway, so you were a regular at heaven. I was also down on my knees at heaven. I was a regular. I was hanging out with these drag queens and they were just sort of celebrities to me. They were like actual clubland superstars. And I thought, I want to do drag. and I think dressing as a girl is not how I describe my early days in drag, there was lots of experimentation with club kid looks and blue face paint and flower pots on my head and different kind of Well I remember in the early days of me being interested in this field, being told by a drag artist, you're not dressing as a girl, you're dressing as a woman and that was made very clear to me the interesting difference we are women, we're not girls I think at some point I was just dressing like an alien.

50:55Just anything that would make me as different as possible and stand out. Describe if you can remember it. And this is about first memories. Yeah. The first moment of dressing up. In drag. In drag. And the bit that was the most exciting bit for you, how it felt, how you looked. I had gone to the MAC Cosmetics store on Carnaby Street and had my eye makeup done. um the girl it's i'd ask me um you know what do you want any specifications just just really simple just some flicks and just some blue eyeshadow and just some just want to look like a gorgeous girl and um i then put sunglasses on and went to heaven and i did the rest of my face myself in the dressing room at the side of the stage and it was hot as hell this would have been the summer of 2003 it was boiling hot and everything I was putting on my face was melting off so you're 18 yes what about the hair a red um there was a fringe it was a sort of a red long just very girly hairdo the first time I ever did drag actually was quite girly I'd shaved my legs because I was covered in cuts from shaving on my legs, bath full of blood.

52:14You know, it was just very slapdash. I was just trying to get by. Were you pleased with the look at the end of it? I thought it looked like a million bucks. Yeah, I looked at myself in the mirror, and I just thought, oh, yeah. Did you later, when you came to do therapy, when you decided to go sober, did you discuss with your therapist, have you thought through why? Being this attractive boy, Jay, wanting also to be this phenomenon that is now Jodie. Yeah. I don't know that I've ever gone into detail in therapy about it because I've always been so comfortable with it and I've always found it so exciting and so creative.

52:57And it's the body as a canvas and it's the performance and it's the... I've just never... It's just never been something I've felt I need to break down. When did you come up with the name Jodie? it was the name was given to me early on um early on in the you mean somebody thought of it or one of the managers who's actually employing you said we need a good name one of the queens yeah one of the other queens and the harsh just given the whole name was just given just really harsh and you thought yeah why not yeah i'll go with that and you can't with that yeah and are you more comfortable as jody or more comfortable as jay or doesn't it really you're just different um i think it depends on the spatial context i wouldn't get into drag at home to hang out because it's so incredibly uncomfortable it's itchy and it's painful and it's and it's the way you sit and position yourself it's just there's a lot to think about and the lashes are itchy and it's not a comfortable thing no one ever said that doing drag was comfortable um i feel in an in a public space i'll only go out in drag because that's my public um presentation and i feel it just gives me that extra it's like armor bit of a cliche but you know it's that layer of armor and that layer of it's my it's my kind of like if i if i worked in the city i'd be wearing a suit and I'd act a bit differently and I would have some more confidence because I'm in I'm in my work clothes you know and I'm ready to work and that's how I feel when I'm when I'm in drag yeah but when you go to sleep you are Jay absolutely as soon as I get through the front door the lashes are off in the cab and I get through the front door and it's being scrubbed off and that's a whole process in itself yes and you are fundamentally a bloke I am indeed yeah that's what Dan LaRue, who I was lucky enough to know for many years.

54:50When Dan was very young, in the 1960s when I first saw him, he was the most beautiful girl you've ever seen. He looked so brilliant. He looked more matronly as the years went by. But he always, I mean, he would come on and say, watch your coat. Yeah, yeah. He'd come on and say, watch your mate. Yeah. He'd make it clear that this is a bloke dressed as a girl. Yeah. And he always was a bloke. Yeah. And I'm so over the top that I don't, you know, the hair's so big in the language of it and I don't think I'm you're a character I'm a character you're a phenomenon exactly I don't think I'm I'm fooling anyone and I've also I never went through um any kind of deliberation in my head on my personal gender I've never felt like perhaps perhaps I was born in the wrong body never anything like that so many of my friends are trans and and non-binary and And I mean, I've, you know, one of my best friends is a trans man.

55:43And they do, but they do drag. You know, there are so many layers and so many different. I mean, I get the impression you're totally at ease with yourself. Totally at ease. You're happy to be Jay when you're Jay. And you're happy to perform as Jody because that's how you earn a very good living. A good living. And well done you. And I love to pop my hand into that pot of gender expression. And I feel lucky to be able to do that. and its performance. And I'm so inspired by really over-the-top women and I love to sort of channel that in what I do. Let's get to the end of these crazy years because you have nine years, which includes this rift, total rift from your father.

56:23Yeah. Who you never speak to again, basically? We begin to patch our relationship a little bit when I'm in my early 20s and I'm living in London. You see him occasionally. And by then as he left your mother, they've split up. Yeah, they've divorced at this point. And we see each other now and again and we have a coffee and it's very forced. Did he ever see you performing as... No, he didn't know. I do drag. Oh. Yes. And you didn't tell him because you didn't want to make him feel uncomfortable. He did find out. And I knew that he wouldn't understand it. I knew he wouldn't like it or appreciate it.

56:59The irony here is I was listening to David Bowie with him when I was a kid and Grace Jones and all these sort of genderqueer artists. He did find out I do drag. My family kept it from him. My mum never told him. My sister never, we were kind of sworn to secrecy because we knew that it would explode again. And did he explode again? Was it distressing to him again? Yeah, he was watching TV with his new wife and I appear on screen. His wife knew that I do drag. and he was the only person really that didn't know. And I appear on screen and he recognises my voice, he recognises my facial features and he turns to his wife and he says, is that my son?

57:45And she says, yes. And from that day onwards, we never spoke again, ever. Not once. And he died? He died a couple of years ago. Did you go to his funeral? I did, yeah, yeah. Was that difficult for you? How did you feel on that day? I felt that it was such a shame that we never connected and we never found that place where we could, where he could accept me. I was also always aware that it was his responsibility to, if there was going to be any contact, it would have been his responsibility as a parent. My sister always says, you know, don't worry about reaching out. Don't worry about writing a letter.

58:25Don't, just leave it. Let it go. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I've always believed that it was really his problems. But you stayed close to your mother? Very, very close, yeah. And she's seen you performing? Oh, my God. She's been on so many nights out. Oh, yeah. Tons. She loves it. That's great. So, what brought you to decide, I've got to stop the drinking and the drugs and the crazy life I'm leading you? It was all very normal to me because everyone around me was doing it, pretty much. I was just in that party scene. There was lots of drink, lots of drugs. It was on offer on a mirror or a plate or a corner of a credit card everywhere I went.

59:06And it just felt very normalized. I had a few friends that got sober. They seemed like little beacons of light as I was going into my lowest depths of addiction. And I woke up one day, 25 years old, 25th of June, 2010. and the worst hangover of my life, as I said. And I realized that that can't go on. That behavior can't go on because I think I realized that I would end up dead. So what was the specific action you took? I went to a recovery meeting two days later. With AA or NA? Yes, yeah, it was NA, yeah. And one of your friends who was a regular said, come with me. Absolutely. And you went together?

59:52Yeah, yeah. and I've another another place that I put myself in where I'd never been so nervous in my life it was similar to going to a club for the first time doing drag for the first time I kind of threw myself into this physical space that made me feel very uncomfortable but I knew I wanted to and had to do it um I recognized some faces in the room people that I'd known and had sort of dropped out of my life the the hour went by in a complete blur as there's a lot to take in and at the end I was told to keep coming back and I did and then I found myself with a 90-day key ring and being so proud about being cleaners over for 90 days and having forced myself into this world of recovery and what of all the the steps what for you was the most helpful step one which is powerlessness accepting powerlessness and what does that mean that you have no control that you are yeah i mean do people explain to you what that is yeah yeah step one it's all about um kind of really acknowledging that you have a problem which was plain to see to myself and everyone around me um and i and i i think when i when i got a sponsor and i and i worked the steps i was kept on step one for a really really long time months and months and months and I just wanted to you know I was just wanted to progress through the steps and and get to step 12 so I can get my own sponsees and um I was told not to rush and I was kept on step one for a really long time and I think that that base step is what's kept me sober for such a long time for some elements of AA I know there's a faith aspect to it is there for you as faith being part of it no the word god is used and i and i don't um apply it in any religious sense but it can be used more broadly it can be you can make of it what you wish to make it's the universe exactly yeah um and i i definitely wouldn't say that i'm in the middle of the program right now but i am still clean but you still go to meetings very very occasionally most of my friends when the meeting is everything yeah still yeah it was for a long time because Because you become almost addicted to the meetings.

1:02:13Yeah, 100%. In the way that you were addicted to other things. Because they can be really fun. I mean, you hear lots of stories. There's lots of comedy in those rooms as well as tragedy. You know, you can learn so much about humankind in the back of a hospital or a church. And can you remember the first day that you felt really good after you joined NA? I think the first time I went out and DJed sober. yeah and the day after realizing that I can be in a club environment and I can continue and did it work even better because you were more in control of yourself yeah it felt like a hurdle that I had to get over um just because being in that environment obviously where there's alcohol and these places are kept open via the the sale and consumption of alcohol I was worried about continuing my career and my passions for nightlife and club culture as a sober person um but when i realized the first time i ever dj'd sober i realized i could do it i was elated the day after i thought okay right we're in i'm a couple you know i'm a month sober i've been to a club sober i can do it i can do that again yay yeah and you have been and you are oh i'd still think that every time yeah what did you learn about yourself when you did go into therapy and when when you had as it Well, the breakdown, breakout moment of saying I'm going to go clean.

1:03:34You join NA. You take the steps. We're moving there. But you also chose to have therapy. Yeah, I did. On the NHS or you paid for it yourself? I paid for it. I didn't do it for very long, but it was a really useful thing to coincide with the recovery program that I was in. What did you most learn about yourself? That I'm a good person. I'm not a bad person. I think towards the end of my using, I just thought I was kind of trash, trashy. and so I think self-worth and value some bad things have happened to me in life but a lot worse things have happened to other people and brilliant things happen to me constantly Speaking of brilliant things, your career as a DJ you've been hugely successful people love what you do but you've also worked with some extraordinary people you've already mentioned Madonna and Kylie It's wildest dreams type thing Who's the most exciting performer you've been in the presence of?

1:04:28I was in the presence of Frank Sinatra. Wow. And I noticed complete control. Let's use Kylie as an example, because I spent a lot of time last year on the tour with her. I think the amount of hard work that goes into it, I think fans might think that you have all these managers and teams and they all do all these things. The artists themselves does more work than anyone, and there are decisions to be made constantly all day, and there are rehearsals, and there's physical stuff, and there's body recovery and there's performance and there's nerves thrown in every night and there's performance expectations.

1:05:05And this is all before getting on stage and performing and remembering lyrics, dance steps, where you've got to be, where you're getting picked up and carried across the stage. I mean, so much must go through Kylie Minogue's head in a day. So many decisions and so many things to remember. It's incredible. And there are just business decisions and there's, you know, hundreds of thousands of tickets being sold and people to entertain and Kylie Wine to sell and videos to make and the next album to record. It's just, it's completely amazing. And you're going to go on in drag forever? I don't know.

1:05:44It's a challenge, but as I say, as you know, I worked with Hinge and Bracket and they made a feature eventually. They grew to be as old as the characters they were playing. So it can work in maturity. Daniel Roo went on. yeah but he actually had to keep coming back he kept saying I'm giving up the bra and then he had to put it on again a farewell tour like Cher that just keeps happening every few years I love it I'll always make music I'll always DJ for sure I love to make and then to perform music in front of people I love the energy exchange what's the best music you have made what's the because you've had things turned into records yeah yeah absolutely I've put stuff out there was a track that I put out called My House which came out towards the end end of the pandemic and that's sort of my biggest my biggest tune i'm very proud of that um and when i play that at the end of my set and everyone goes like ah and everyone's sort of seeing and seeing thousands of people singing lyrics along with me i just think oh my god i'm just that kid from canterbury that sort of used to bunk out the bedroom window and get the train to london and this is all so cool i'm so glad i've met that kid from canterbury well no because i feel i've met that kid from Canterbury, and I've met Jodie Harsh, who are living very comfortably inside the same body.

1:06:55We can coincide. You are coincide. We're best friends. I think you're more than best friends. I think you're lovers, in the best sense of the word. Okay. I don't think you need necessarily to have a partner because you've bred your own. Yeah. But do you protect yourself? Yeah, definitely. And I have my shortcomings, as everyone does. I mean, I'm pondering why you haven't had a long-lasting relationship. I mean, is it partly because you... I don't think I've looked hard enough for one. And also maybe you've been protecting yourself too much. I don't know. Maybe. I definitely think a guard is always raised with me.

1:07:29Yeah, definitely. And have you ever been on the brink of it and thought, no, I don't want to fall in love? Oh, many times, yeah. Yeah, I've definitely had partners that have lasted several months and then I've thought... Several months. I'll find something to... That is too much. I'll find something to... So you are the person who usually spoils it. Sometimes it's happened, yeah. So it goes away. Yeah. Sabotage. Do you feel you're missing something? No. No. I really don't. And you don't feel I'm missing something, you don't have children at the moment? I don't have children. I think my career is like my child.

1:08:06Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing that I really nurture and I'm constantly there for. You're hugely self-sufficient, Jay. I think so. You've read your own wife. Here she is, Jodie. you have a career which is your child yeah it's the whole unit absolutely and you have no regrets really no regrets that's another thing that that therapy taught me as well i've been naughty in my life but i think to go through life with regrets is a very sad thing um and so um no regrets fine well i'm recommending to everybody you had to be there and you really did have to be there and i think you've taken us there um i've i've loved it people will love it because it's now out in paperback.

1:08:48What's your life lesson? What has life taught you, Jay? That things can get better. Stay positive. Keep going. Be nice to people. Work hard. People aren't necessarily going to do any favours for you.

1:09:13Keep going. keep going well I'm glad you stopped by here while I'm keeping going Jodie Harsh J Clark I'd like to thank both of you and your offspring for being with us today on Rosebud thank you thank you oh my thanks there to Jodie Harsh and also to J Clark I found both of them interesting and oh look Jodie has signed my book the book by the way is called you had to be there an odyssey through noughties London club land. Giles, thank you for the fabulous chat. It was so much fun. That's how I felt about it too. Jodie. And that's published by Faber and I do recommend it. Yeah, somebody says about it, the gutter and the stars.

1:09:58It's all in here. We do get amazing guests on Rosebud. We are very much blessed. Don't know who it is going to be this Friday but whoever it is, I think it's going to be interesting. Do join us then. Cue the goodbye music. It's Elaine Page. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, that's so exciting. Who's going to be on Friday? Oh, I know. Oh, Jodie Wilde. Amazing guests on Rosebud. We are very much blessed. Don't know who it is going to be this Friday, but whoever it is, I think it's going to be interesting. Do join us then. Cue the goodbye music. It's Elaine Page. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, that's so exciting. Who's going to be on Friday?

1:10:43Oh, I know. Oh, Jodie will go berserk with this guest for Friday. My goodness. Jodie adored Cher, adores Madonna, has the hots for Kylie. But when I said the name of our guest on Friday, there was melting in the room. Dame Elaine Page is on Rosebud this Friday. Don't say we don't spoil you. Cue the music. Thank you.

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1:12:16Welcome back to Two Judgy Girls. I'm Mary from the Bay. And I'm Courtney from LA. TJG is the podcast where we spill all the tea on your favorite reality TV shows, celebrity gossip, and everything in between. We're here to bring you our unfiltered opinions, hilarious commentary, and plenty of laughs along the way. We're two SDSU Delta Gamma sisters with a microphone and a whole lot of opinions. Each week, we dive headfirst into the wild world of reality television from Bravo to all the trash TV you could want. We break down the drama, dissect the latest scandals, and share our thoughts on everything from the jaw-dropping moments to the embarrassing antics.

1:12:55But that's not all. We're not here to just gossip. We're here to connect with you, the jurors, and share our love of all things pop culture. Whether we're dishing on the latest celebrity breakups, discussing our favorite guilty pleasure movies, or sharing embarrassing stories from our own lives, we promise to keep it real, keep it fun, and keep you coming back for more. Come judge with us. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere.