More Rosebud - Lee Lawrence

0:20It's time for more Rosebud, and as far as I'm concerned, it's time for a cup of chamomile tea, which I'm enjoying and I was thinking I might chat to Harriet about her favourite blends of tea but then she said there's no time for banter today Charles we've got a very special guest and rather an important subject so you're wittering on about tea is neither here nor there but do you know the origin of the tea leaf? What do you mean? India or China? You clearly don't. PG Tips? What do you mean the origin of the tea leaf? An Indian seer many years ago wanted to pray perpetually and was appalled. This is thousands of years ago.

1:03Was appalled that in the midst of his prayers he kept falling asleep. And he was furious with himself. His eyes would close at the most spiritual moment. So he one day in his anger tore off his own eyelids, threw them to the ground. Fair enough. Well, they took root. and they produced the first ever crop of tea. The original tea leaf was this ancient monk's eyelids and they produced this wonderful plant that banishes sleep. That's wonderful. That's not a sweet story, isn't it? I love that story, yeah. So anyway, I love a chamomile tea. What's your favourite tea? Just think about that when you're next drinking a cup of monk's eyelids.

1:45I know. It's both charming and rather grotesque at the same time. It is. And it may not be the actual origin of tea. When do you have to have your first cup? I tend to drink coffee, actually, sorry. Because I really don't like eyelids. I must and will introduce you to my friend Lee Child. Shall we let them know? Yeah. Can we tell them that one of our guests quite soon is going to be Lee Child? One of the best-selling novelists in the entire world. I know. 200 million books. Why is he called Lee Child? Well, you have to listen to the programme. Yeah. In fact, our guest today is called Lee. And though he's no child, his story actually starts when he was a child.

2:28We'll come on to him in a second. Just finish on the tea front. Do you ever drink tea? Every now and then. I like jasmine tea. I like jasmine tea. We're recording this at Grosvenor House Hotel in Park Lane, where normally the tea tray includes jasmine. It's so nice. But there's no jasmine today, which is for him on the chamomile. Oh. So I'm rather hoping the general manager is listening to this episode and Jasmine may be returned to the... Okay, yeah. Is this how we order things now, just by talking about them on the podcast? Then make sure that they're listening. Okay, so that's two bottles of champagne and a side of smoked salmon.

3:05Now look, to be serious, I mentioned that our guest today is called Lee. He's actually called Lee Lawrence and he's the most fascinating figure. and this is an extraordinary anniversary in his life because it was on the 28th of September 1985 that Lee's mother Cherry Gross was shot by police during a raid on their home in Brixton and this was a famous case at the time horrific case it led to what I think the police then called well Brixton riots there had been riots in Brixton before but this led to another the second Brixton riots in 1985 yeah though Lee Lawrence calls them something else doesn't he he calls them an uprising yeah because I think he was actually very encouraged by the way the community in Brixton came together and and protested the injustice of his mum's shooting but what is remarkable is that Lee Lawrence who you're about to meet uh 40 years ago he had just turned 11 I think it was about a month after his 11th birthday.

4:14He was there. He witnessed the moment that a bullet from a police officer's gun shot his mother, shattered her spine. She never walked again. There was chaos on the day. She was reported as being dead, killed. That's what sparked the riot. and well that's the story that we're going to unpack in this conversation with Lee Lawrence yeah you've read his book The Louder I Will Sing and I think you were moved by it weren't you oh I really recommend it in fact it won an award when it came out in 2020 because it's such a good book a terrible story but very very well written and powerful and definitely very very readable as well so i recommend it so no banter from us today a fascinating powerful moving disturbing story um that you will i think be gripped by so get yourself a cup of tea or a cup of coffee it doesn't need to be chamomile it doesn't need to be jasmine it can just be builder's tea um and sit back or go for your run or listen to this in bed i think you will be moved and impressed by the story of Lee Lawrence and particularly the story of the shooting of his mother 40 years ago this weekend.

5:47Lee Lawrence, born on the 30th of August 1974. I want you to cast your mind back to your very first memory. What jumps out at me was we lived in Vauxhall. So when I was born, we lived in an estate. And I just remember the estate almost going round in a circle so you could see all the other houses, no matter what direction you was in. And we was playing downstairs. I was playing with another child called Daniel. and we were lifting up the drain. Don't ask me why we decided to play with the drain as a game. And he let go of it. And then my fingers got caught in the drain. I remember running upstairs to my mum and looking to her to help me.

6:47And she just cut some cloth, basically, with scissors and then wrapped every finger with the cloth. And then she just said, there's a word she would use, which is hush. She would go, hush. And that was it. And that was, you'll be all right. So I don't even remember ever having to go into hospital or doctors or anything like that. It was a kind of home remedy to sort things out. How wonderful. Just by saying hush, all is well. All is well. All is well. Oh, well done her. So, in this flat, who is living in this flat in Vauxhall? You and your mum? Any brothers and sisters? Yes. Lisa. Lisa would have been the baby.

7:36My sister, Sharon, Rose Marie, my other sister, Juliet. Oh. My brother wasn't living there with us. I remember seeing my brother on occasions, but I don't remember him living in that particular flat. More than one father, possibly? Yes. Before your dad came along, there was another dad, was there? Yes. But he disappeared by then. Yes. Did you ever know him? No. So I just knew my father, who was... And who was your father? Tell us about your father. Leo. Leo Lawrence. Leo Lawrence. And he spent nine years in the army. Mm-hmm. and then he became a security guard very regimental in the way that he was very disciplined was always on time was always neatly dressed his shoes were always polished and spoke well which is one of the things that my mom said she really liked about him that he always spoke well and he pronounced the name as sherry instead of cherry and how did they meet him they met for a mutual friend at a pub and I think their common ground was the music so they were both into music and that's where the conversation sparked and mum used to always say that that was one of the gifts he used to always give to her was have a record or sometimes chocolate or flowers.

9:00And was he part of your life when you were a little boy? Yes. And was he a good father? My dad was, my mum did most of that, the discipline, and she was the one, the main person. So my dad was very much in the background, and every now and then, if he felt like he had to assert himself, he would. But he wasn't that person who was, I would say, at the forefront of raising me as a child, but he was always there in the background. What's your best memory of him? my best memory of my father is there was always a particular time on a friday evening when we would hear his footsteps walking down the balcony and we would always you know greet him when he came in and he had um sweets crisps fruit it was like his thing religiously on a friday he always brought gifts for us and so that was something that we always looked forward to that was probably my earliest memory and a really joyous memory of us because we we would almost be standing near the door waiting for them to come did you feel they got on well your mom and dad yes they did um it was how can i put it they were totally different characters my mom was a lot more outspoken and she was more forthcoming she was a lot more sociable very well known well known within the community within the community where my my father was a bit more reserved as as a person had very little friends where my mom was a lot more spontaneous she ran the show she ran the show and she kept the show on the road yeah and he was this quiet figure in the background yes but a dutiful father he came he paid over whatever he earned yes and as a young family before the tragedy as a young family what do you remember about life in Vauxhall what's your best memory of your early years just playing outside with everybody and feeling like that community spirit where they say it takes a village to raise a child.

11:17I felt like I was raised by the village. No matter where you went, there was always someone you knew, someone who would check on you. You always felt safe. And it was just fun and exciting. And was it a mixture of black children, white children, all sorts? Mixture, mixture. And were you conscious that there were children of different color to you? Not at that age, no. I wasn't conscious at all. I only became more conscious when we moved from Vauxhall to Brixton. I became more conscious then. And when I started my new primary school, when we moved to Brixton, that's when I started to see people kind of more tribal, people in their own pockets.

11:56And then I saw how teachers may deal with you differently, speak to you differently, depending on who you were. And that's when I started to see myself in the world. And what age did you go to? What age were you when you moved from Vauxhall to Brixton? About five or six? Seven, about seven. And you went to a new primary school? Yes. And what's your memory? Do you have any good memories of that? Not really. Other than the school was just right across from my house. So literally, it would take me two minutes in the morning to get to school. Was there a uniform? There wasn't a uniform for the primary school, no.

12:34and I just remember the first time I went to that school it was about fitting in and there was these boys who were the cool kids and they were called the Panther Gang and that was because they had these pair of trainers which they called Panthers at the time, so Adidas had three stripes these had four stripes and they said, if you want to be a part of our Panther crew, you've got to get a pair of Panthers, and I went home and I begged Mum, I said Mum, I need these trainers I really want to fit in at school I need these Panthers and then she bought these Panthers for me and they were blue and they had Velcro and I went back to school and I said yeah I've got my Panthers now I want to be in the Panther gang and they looked at me and said they're not the right Panthers and they just laughed and I'll never forget how I felt at the time but yeah that was all part I suppose of growing up learning about yourself of trying to fit in, who am I, where do I fit in, and so on and so forth.

13:36Who was your best friend outside of your family? I had a friend called Jason Collins. He's passed away, sadly, from leukemia. And I remember he had a chopper bike, and we used to get on the back of his bike on the weekends, and we would be riding around in our local area on his bike. So were those happy days? Not basically at school, but generally. You were a happy lad. Generally, I was happy. And I felt, although we were really poor, most people were at that time around you. So you didn't see the stark difference. It wasn't like the people across the road had everything and you had nothing. Most of us were, you know, trying to make ends meet.

14:22And you were conscious of that work, even as a little boy. Because your father was bringing in his income as a security man. Yes. And did your mum go out to work at all? No, at the time she was full-time. Looking after all the children. Looking after the children. What was her favourite dish? What did she cook that you really loved? There's so many. On a Saturday, we'd have Saturday soup. So that could be red pea soup, or it could be chicken soup, or it could be lamb soup. So I used to love, you know, having my soup on a Saturday. but on a Sunday it could be anything from curry chicken to stew chicken to oxtail.

15:03I liked steak cooked down but we used to have it like stewed. But that was a real privilege. It sounds like quite good food. Yeah, it was wholesome. Did you have to share a bedroom? Yes. Who did you share it with? What did your room look like? Describe your bedroom. Well, up until even the incident, we were sharing a room. I was in my mum's room at the time. So it wasn't unusual for us to share. It was a little bit like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory where everybody is kind of in one bed at some stage. So that's how we grew up. That was normal for us. I know your mother loved dancing. Yeah.

15:44What was the music in the house like? Was there a lot of music? A lot of music. What kind of music? So I could always dictate my mum's mood through the music that she played. So if she was in a really happy mood, it would be lively. We would be dancing in the living room. And so it would just be more upbeat. She was into reggae and she was into a lot of soul music as well. It could be anything from Al Green to Bob Marley or Marcia Griffiths. Those are the type of artists that we listen to growing up. Motown music as well. So as I said, if she was in a really upbeat mood or if she was sad, she would just sit by the record player and she could play one sad song after another sad song.

16:30And sometimes I'd be sitting next to her and I can feel the emotion that she was going through. And at times, even I would become emotional. That's how infectious it was. Did you have any school teachers who took an interest in you at that stage when you were at primary school? anyone you remember particularly well as being a teacher who liked you and no i didn't feel there was any teachers at my primary school that i felt i really connected with or really took a shine to me or got to know me as a person so that your mum was very much the center of your universe absolutely was there any sport in your life any not really we had a local youth center and there was also a skateboard park so when I when I got a bike for my 11th birthday most of the times I was in the um skateboard park on my bike with all the other kids and it was shortly after your 11th birthday that the tragedy happens because it's on 28th September 1985 that's correct when your mother was shot by police now why were the police there what happened and what precisely are your recollections of that this is about memory our conversation so if you can obviously it's painful for you but if you can describe what you remember of that night and then maybe add to it what you know of why this thing happened at all okay so it was a friday i'll start from the friday night we were all huddled in my mom's room watching the one tv that we had and we would have watched tv until late and we all fell asleep as as usual and then 7 a.m 28th of september 1985 i just remember hearing the noise which woke me up i woke up saw my mum walking to the door i thought whatever it is mum's taking care of it and I laid back down and then I heard it have a loud bang this time and that's when I jumped up and I just saw my mum lying on the floor and I saw this man just shouting at her and at the time he was calling my brother's name which is where's Michael goes where's Michael goes just get him shouting that to my mum all I heard they say back in a really faint voice was I can't breathe, I can't feel my legs, and I think I'm going to die.

19:07That freaked me out. So I stood on top of the bed, and I was eyeline with the person who had the gun. I was like, what have you done to my mum? What have you done to my mum? And I was just, I never felt so much rage in my body at the time. And I felt like I just wanted to protect my mum somewhat. And then the person takes the gun out and points it at me and says, someone better shut this effing kid up. It was like, or else, as if I was annoying him. My dad was in the room, and he started to try and calm me down. And I saw the fear in my dad's face, and I thought, if my dad's scared, and I know he's been in the army, it was a security card, but at the time, as I said, then this must be serious.

19:56and it was only in that moment that I realized that this was a police officer was he in uniform he was in uniform but it was amongst the myths of the madness that was happening at the time I couldn't even see that it was like slowly everything coming into focus which shocked me because I'm thinking these are the good guys I mean I actually wanted to be a police officer at that time so to to kind of see this happen to my mom the person i loved the most and um and it was by a police officer just really confused me i couldn't i couldn't get my head around it he'd come to the door saying where is michael gross michael gross being i assume the name of your stepdad the first your mother's first husband and michael was your elder brother that's correct so how old was he at the time he was 22 at the time and why were they looking for him in connection to a robbery that took place so at that particular time they were saying he may be a suspect in a robbery and they assumed that he lived with us and he didn't live with us at the time and he wasn't in the house had it been an armed robbery is that was that the reason that they had arms on them on the occasion that's their justification so the idea so i can What is happening is the police officer comes in, gun ready, looking for Michael Gross, and trigger happy, shoots the woman.

21:29Obviously, it doesn't look anything like Michael Gross. Exactly. But he sees who opens the door. Yes. Your mother falls to the floor. Your father tries to calm the situation down. How many other police officers are there? 30. 30 police officers in the house. Three zero? Three zero. Guns, dogs. It was crazy. All, as you men? Yes, all men. Mostly white officers? White officers, all men. Cars outside? Cars, well, we didn't get to see outside because we were kind of cocooned in the house. So we got ushered out of my mum's bedroom, which was on the first floor. So as you come into the door, on the right-hand side is my mum's bedroom, which is what they kicked in and then they shot the first person they saw because mum was already up from the noise of them breaking down the door.

22:16So they broke down the front door. They got into the house. looking for your brother. That's correct. And then, trigger happy, it would seem, they shot somebody who moved. Yes. And they later said, we were looking for, we thought he might have been armed. Yes. So we didn't know what was going to happen. In the heat of the moment, this lady fell to the ground. Yes. So you're in this room. Where are your sisters at this stage? So one of my sisters was in the room with me at the time. There was, my youngest sister was in the living room because my mum was babysitting two other children, a seven-year-old and a two-year-old.

22:54And then my eldest sister was upstairs. She was 21 and six months pregnant. So we all got huddled into the living room. And then my mum was left in the bedroom until the ambulance came. How quickly did the ambulance come? Did they call someone straight away? It felt quite long for us, but maybe they came within 20 minutes, half an hour. So one of the police officers called for an ambulance, realising something had gone wrong. Yes. Seriously wrong. And was anything said at the time? You were just ushered into this room? We were ushered into this room. We kept asking questions. I was getting no answers.

23:29At one point, I actually barged back into my mum's room. And at that time, I was saying, you know, what's wrong with my mum? And they said, don't worry, she's just been grazed. And I said, if she's just been grazed, why is she bleeding so much? So I just remember seeing a pool of blood at the side of her. Your dad, I keep calling him your dad, but I think I'm right in saying you didn't call him dad. He didn't want to be called dad for some reason. Isn't that right? Yes, that's right. What did he like to be called? Leo, by his name. So Leo, being the sort of personality he is, wasn't interfering.

24:05He wasn't rushing to your mother's side. He was standing quietly with you, trying to calm you all down. I think it's hard because my dad, we got rushed out of the room. He was still there with my mum and he went to the hospital with her shortly after. But my dad was very, someone who was respectful of authority, being somebody that was in the army. So my reaction and my dad's reaction was completely different at the time. So what happened next? Ambulance arrives. Your mother's taken off in the ambulance. Your dad goes with her. Who's left looking after you children? so we're just left with the police officers and at that point two female police officers were called in to to try and comfort us which was very difficult because as far as we're concerned we can't detach um these female officers from the officers who just shot my mum so we couldn't really trust and again we were worried about his mum is she all right is she gonna live and the only updates we were getting was on the radio or on the tv at the time hold on the radio and the tv i think you're getting ahead of yourself because this can't have been on the radio and the tv yet well it was i mean it was so this isn't this is a more this is a dawn raid this is a dawn raid dawn raid everyone on the street knows this has happened they see a body being taken out of ambulance yeah um how quickly is it on the radio and the tv well shortly after the press came they lined us up on the sofa and they took a picture of us in the immediate aftermath off so this was news straight away but who do you think tipped off the press well the police themselves the only people that could have let them in the house is the police because they were guarding no one else could get in members of the community came outside they wanted to check on us they went to come in the house to see if we was all right they were not letting anyone in they weren't telling anyone what happened but yet the press were allowed to come in and line us up and take the pop take a photo of us good grief and that appeared in the paper When that appeared in the paper.

26:11I've still got the clippings of them. Did you have any aunties or family members who would come round to look after the kids? So eventually my gran came round. Right. My mum's mum came round. And I think it wasn't until in the evening that we ended up going to my grandma's house. Well, she would have been in a terrible state. Yes, she was. Gosh. and in your head is it possible to remember now how you felt at the end of that day in your grand's house were you able to see your mum during the day at all no it took us two days before we could see my mum and who took you to see your mum what hospital was she in she was inst thomas's it would have been my gran that brought us to the hospital so that's a good hospital and nearby yeah and you went was she in a room or was she in a ward she was in on a ward in a in a private room I remember going in and seeing her and seeing this box over her legs and I was thinking what's that box and the doctor comes in and explains that mum was shot the bullet hit went in her shoulder punched her lung hit her spine god and then came out through her hip.

27:25And as a result of that now, she's permanently paralysed. There was fragments of the bullet still lodged in her spine that they couldn't remove for fear of further damage. And I just remember figuring to myself, wow, my mum's never going to walk again. When I saw her walk to the door, that's the last time I would see my mum walk. And was she conscious? She was conscious. And she knew it was you? Did you kiss her, hold her hand? What sort of child were you in terms of physical contact with your mother anyway? We were, we wasn't necessarily the type of family where we were all lovey-dovey and kiss each other and say, we love you.

28:11But we knew we were loved by my mum, by her actions. She was the type of person that showed her love through her actions. But I can see in that moment, she wanted to remain, strong for us so there was a sense of her thinking about us how we're going to feel about what's happened but also us thinking about mum and feeling sorry for her in that position and I just remember making a commitment to my 11 year old self to say I could no longer rely on my mum to look after me I'm gonna have to look after my mum and I spent the next 26 years as a carer to her. Did you think, are you sure you thought that when you, at that day?

28:52That day I knew that I would not be able to rely on my mum to look after me again. And what were people around you at the time saying what had happened? Did the women police officers try to explain to you on that first day what had happened? Did anyone say this has gone wrong or try to tell you what was happening? No, they were just trying to console us because we were just all crying uncontrollably and there was a bulletin where it said my mum had died, had passed. And I remember going into the kitchen. Forgive me, a news bulletin that said that? That you heard on the radio or TV? Yes, on the radio.

29:33My goodness. And that was obviously misinformation. That was misinformation. I mean, she did lose consciousness. So I don't know if they reported it prematurely, but I just remember going into the kitchen, getting a knife, trying to slit my wrist. What? Yeah. And it was a female police officer, one of the female police officers who grabbed the knife from me at the time. So clearly, you're an 11-year-old all over the place. Yeah. You don't quite know how to react. You're thinking, I'm going to look after what's happened. I can't live. So you run to the kitchen, you get out a knife. And obviously, you didn't.

30:09The police officer stopped you from doing that, tried to calm you down. and your sisters of various ages they I assume are crying and not knowing what to do as well yes did you cry or do you just make noises how are you behaving on that day I just remember us it was almost like a melody of crying so when one starts another one stops and everyone's when another one stops another one starts so I just I just remember us just crying throughout like the whole night that night. And there wasn't much word said. There was just an emotion that we were expressing and feeling and connecting with in our own different way.

30:50So collectively, but separately too.

31:01It was term time by then. And did you go back to school on the Monday or the Tuesday? No, but two weeks later I was back at school. And how was that? Was that actually quite helpful to get back to school? In some senses, yes, but very difficult because I remember the first day I turned up at school, we was in the playground and one of my friends turned around and shouted out loud, he said, Lee, your mum was shot and there was a riot over your mum in Brixton. and I just wanted the floor to just open up. I was not ready for someone to speak about it in that way and so publicly and I don't feel the school did enough to prepare us for going back into school, prepare the children in terms of how maybe to deal with us.

31:51No teacher, no adult ever asked me what happened, how do you feel, do you need any support? There was none of that. It was just business as usual, as if it didn't happen. And you mentioned the kid saying there's been a riot. What was the local community response on that weekend when word got out that the police had shot your mum, who was a popular local figure and clearly a normal, nice, loving person? Absolutely. and rage I think initially the community came out they wanted to find out what happened to Cherry why was Cherry shot in their home in front of their children no answers and then when that bulletin went out that's where they decided to march down from our house where we lived in Normandy Road to Brookson Police Station which was about maybe a 30 minute walk and how many people were on this march well i've it started off with maybe about 60 70 people outside the house and then as they were walking because we lived in an area where there were so many different estates that you know black people lived in as well so as you walk in on that main road you would have cowley estate then you had angel town estate then you had stockwell park estate and then you had summer late in the state so it's like as people were walking more and more people are hearing about what happened and taking to the streets and joined in and joined in so by the time they got outside the station there was probably a few hundred people now and what were they what were they wanting well they thought sherry had been shot and killed yes and they wanted answers because we had the uprisings that happened four years previously, which was 81.

33:45So this is not a community. This is a community who's already has a sense that the system's up against them, that the police have been abusing them. And so therefore the tension between the black community and the police was already there. And now this is another thing on top of that. So from what I gathered, it was like enough's enough. I take it I guess that your father wasn't on that march no he was at the hospital that wouldn't and it wouldn't have been his style anyway no he was there with his wife and you were visiting as often as you could yes and she was moved then to Stoke Mandeville that's correct where they specialize in trying to repair people have had this kind of to their spine their whole body yes So it was rehabilitation.

34:34And a lot of that was more about them trying to get her to come to terms with how she would now have to live being paralyzed and confined to a wheelchair. And you visited her there regularly? Yes. I mean, once a week or? Well, we only got to go every couple of weeks. Someone would take us up there to go and see her. And how was she in herself? Was she a changed person? Lonely? Lonely, yeah, lonely, because now she's been completely isolated. So she found it really difficult. She struggled. And one of her main things was her children. Now her children are left with other people to look after. So therefore, she's not being able to do what she's always been doing, which is, you know, be a mother to her children.

35:20So being apart from us and us being apart from her was really difficult. And she was there for almost two years. I think she was there for a year and a half. Before you tell me how you coped, how did your dad cope with all this? My dad never really spoke about it. And it was only just before, well, when my mum passed, he said to me, he said, Sherry saved my life. That's what he said. And I said, why do you say that? I've never heard you say that before. and he said what woman would be in her house hearing noise and not nudge the man next to her to go and investigate she went and investigated herself and he feels that if he was the one that got up it would have been more justifiable for him to be shot because they're looking for a male he's a male and he probably wouldn't have survived it probably wouldn't have been one gunshot so in his mind he saw it that he was living with that burden that it was my mum that took the bullet and maybe that should have been him um as the as the man and protector in the house when did he die he died in um 2020 and did you stay close to him as a family over the years that incident changed our whole family dynamic my dad became more and more um distant as a father we didn't see him as regular so i think he was dealing with a lot his own guilt around what happened even though he wasn't responsible but you could imagine being a man in that situation and you can't protect your woman you can't protect your children um that's very difficult and then years later he turned around and said that one of the things that happened was when he went to see my mum in hospital he was in a room and there were some plainclothes officers who came in the room and said to him if he knows what's best for him he better shut up and keep quiet about what happened so he was threatened basically not to report not to talk about what happened on that day yeah not to say what he saw and that's how much later was this it was would have been the same day ah while he was in hospital so from the start from the moment this happened a he had the guilt yes be given the sort of person he was he was intimidated by the threat yes he became a more silent withdrawn person that's correct rather retreated from the family yes And how does this affect you personally?

38:01How does your behaviour at school, what happens to you? How do you behave? Well, before my mum goes to Stark-Mandeville, she was still at St. Thomas' Hospital. So my usual day would look like I would go to school, come back to Samolayton where we were staying with my sister's godmother. I'll change my clothes. I'd go to the hospital. I'll stay there till 9, 10 o 'clock in the night. Chatting to your mum, what were you doing with them? I'll just sit with her. I just wanted to be in her company. Fine. Did you hold her hand? Not really. We didn't. We just would sit there. It was just, sometimes we'd just be sitting in silence.

38:37But for me, I just needed to be next to my mum. And so I did that until she went to Stoke Mandeville. That was my day. And on days when I had days off at school, I would spend the whole day in the hospital. I'd go physio with her so I could really, you know, be in a better position when she does come out to support her. so that was what it was like then when she moved to stoke mandeville i would say probably my behavior at school became a problem i had a lot of outbursts i had anger issues at school i'd blow up over the most simplest stuff um and shout out to the teachers or shout out the teachers slamming doors getting into conflict with other students and did the head teacher or your teacher take you aside and never you just met with punishment detention um temporary expulsions and things like that and no one ever indicated to me that they knew why i might be acting like this and what i had gone through obviously it was public knowledge it was public knowledge and it was just one teacher whose name his name was mr rush and he was good he was good and although it rhymes nicely with hush yes which is good it does so uh mr rush was the type of person who would he was the only teacher who came to my my house to see my mum to speak to her about stuff that was happening in school because she couldn't go to the school eventually after how long she had stoke mandeville she was there for a year and a half and then she comes home yeah to the old house in brixton no we had to move to a bungalow so we had to find somewhere that was going to be suitable for her.

40:25So she comes out in a wheelchair? Yes. And knowing she's never going to walk again? That's right. And is she mentally affected or does she seem quite normal in herself? She would have definitely been mentally affected, but she held it up. And were you looking after your mum? Were you helping make the meals, putting her to bed? Was that something going on? Yes, helping, doing breakfast, meals. Tell me what did you do for breakfast? describe yourself to me as the good carer that i'm sure you were so every day before i went to school i'd make my mom tea breakfast and what do you make for breakfast it could be anything from toast to cereal good um whatever she might request that day um but tea was always there good that was never um can't start the day without tea can't start the day without tea and then um I would have to take my sister to school, one of my younger sister, before I went to school.

41:21So that was my daily routine. I'd have to do things like hoovering, you know, taking out the rubbish, helping with preparation. Mum still remained, she tried to do as much as she could. So in the beginning, when she came out of hospital, she was still cooking meals. Oh, good. She was very proud and independent. And was there any sign of the Gross family during all this? her first husband and Michael your brother they we did not see they were not on the scene no my brother every now and then no different to when we were living in Brixton you know we might see him you know a couple of times for the year he would pop up but he was never around you know it's a side story but was he eventually arrested for this uh the the offense that they'd come around to your house for they were looking for him in relation to an armed robbery of some kind did they eventually find him arrest him charge him how does that he was acquitted of that offense so the whole thing was unnecessary as it turns out the whole thing was unnecessary gosh and was she because we're going to come on to your anger and what you did about it in a moment but in her head was she trying did she brood about what had happened or did she just think this is life did her faith help her how did she cope well i remember the day the verdict came in because two years later after she was shot there was a criminal trial the officer who shot her douglas lovelock was acquitted and i remember going so he was charged with wrongful shooting yeah malicious and he his defense was he done in the line of duty etc etc yeah and so he was found Not guilty.

43:02Not guilty. Okay. And did any of the family attend the trial? Were you called as a witness? I was called as a witness, I remember. What was that like? Because by then you were 12, 13. That's right. I remember going to the Old Bailey. It was really overwhelming. The Old Bailey? Yeah. But I also remember wanting to do my bit. So there was never a reluctance to go in and being a witness. because I saw it as I was, I saw everything. I knew exactly what happened that day. Does a barrister sit with you in a side room and say, these are the questions I'm going to ask you? Yes. And you rehearsed it, but you knew what you were going to say.

43:44Yeah, which was the truth, which is what I saw. Yeah, exactly. And I don't suppose anyone was arguing about what had happened in the sense this officer clearly shot somebody and he shot your mother. The reason he was acquitted is his line was, their line, was that he was in the course of duty, confused situation, the gun went off, couldn't see the room, lighting dark, a figure approached me. Even though the lat was on. Ah, I'm just now improvising. Yeah. My father was a barrister, my son is a barrister, so I'm just trying to imagine the lines that they would take that he came to the door in the heat of the moment this happened.

44:21And clearly it was a jury trial. Yes. And the judge summed up, and when the judge, as it were, did the summing up they usually give an indication of what their instinct is about it all and did you think he was the man was going to be found guilty or not guilty see i wasn't there for the summing up so i was only there for the day i had to give evidence so was it nerve-wracking it was it was did you have to swear on the bible does all that do you have to hold up a bible yeah everything all of that to go through and it was really intense and intimidating to be in that space but as I said there was also a commitment to wanting to do my bit because I saw what happened and I saw this as a way of getting some justice for what happened um so when that didn't happen and we got that that came on the news I was really angry and upset about that I'm intrigued because I come from a family of lawyers but now you're sitting here and knowing that your new book is called The Colour of Injustice.

45:24Were you aware, as you stood in the witness box, that you and your family, I imagine, were probably the only black people in the court? Yes. I mean, there are black judges, but I don't think you got one that day. And there are black barristers, and this was a few years ago. I doubt there were many of those, nor the clerks. Well, actually, our barrister was Paul Boltang. Good. I'm pleased to hear that. really I was going to ask is if you were conscious as a boy that here you were in a system that was dominated by white people or is that me looking at it as an outsider I don't think I paid enough attention to it from that perspective at that time as a child for me it was the fact that I was just here and the circumstances in which I'm here for was all that I was thinking about and just making sure that i told um what i saw accurately to support this case so the news comes through acquitted completely acquitted yes um stays in the force just a line is drawn under it unfortunate accident deep regret um well i don't i mean i don't remember hearing the words deep regret but yeah no well was there any statement no by the metropolitan police at the time there wasn't a statement made at the time which was hurtful so how did this affect you and your behavior in the years that followed well when that happened i remember going to the kitchen speaking to my mom and saying mom this he's got off like how do you feel and she says to me lee the the police are a force and we can't beat the force and it was just this almost like accepting that you know as black people we're not going to get justice and so therefore that was a big turning point for me because once I realised that how unfair the world was I just became rebellious I had no respect for the law after that how did that affect your behaviour day to day what were you up to well at school my behaviour got worse I would have confrontation I could get on a bus and have a confrontation with the driver and something really small would turn into something big and then the police would threaten me by saying I want to call the police and I'd be like, call the police.

47:50I want you to call the police. You were looking for trouble. Yeah, I was looking for the confrontation between me and the police. Did you break the law yourself? There were times when I got into stuff and got maybe in the wrong kind of crowd and was doing stuff. Give me an example of the kind of stuff you were doing. Well, one of the things I speak about in my first book that I was seeing, I got into smoking weed and selling it as well.

48:27Now you're a teenager, and clearly I look at you, you're an attractive human being. Did you have a girlfriend at this stage? When I was a teenager? No, I didn't have a girlfriend until I was 17. I'm sorry to hear that. When I got my first girlfriend. Because that could have sorted it. Or helped sort it. Helped sort it. Yeah. Did you feel, when you were going through this rebellious period, obviously you were just, you were angry at the world in general, at the police and the establishment in particular, but you were still in your head determined to look after your mother. Absolutely. Did you think, is what I'm doing good for mum?

49:03And that's where, and again I say that in the first book, where that's what kept me centered. Anytime I was going too far off, I'd always be thinking about, Lee, if something happens to you, what's the impact it's going to have on mum? Who's going to do the job that you do? And I don't want to be responsible for please come to the house again, you know, for me this time. And then in April 2011, your mother dies. And what age is she then? 63. free and she has been in this infirm state since it happens 1985 um so it's a long time isn't it that's right uh and what was she like as an older person before she dies what was she like you know when she's in her 50s 60s what do you remember of her what give me some of the flavor of the good times let's have a little moment of of how because there must have been good times she still enjoyed music she couldn't dance anymore because that would be the big joy of her life yes so music was still the backdrop of our lives and because mum couldn't go out no more in terms of you know didn't socialize in the way that she did she brought the party to our house so people would come there'd be a big cook-up there'd be music we played dominoes which is you know you know west indian culture dominoes is a is a big thing a big game and then there was they were there were the moments where we saw a bit of joy like the glimmer of joy and happiness but you know they were short-lived though and when did you left her when did you leave your mum's home um i would say i officially left when i was about 21 so about 95 yeah 1995 and where did you move to you personally i moved in with my girlfriend at the time and my son's mother and then eventually i moved to what she called your girlfriend then Debbie.

51:00Debbie. Yeah. And was she good news? Yes, of course, of course. And we're, you know, still very close up to today. Good. Yeah. Have you been able, you're still with her? No. Oh, I'm sorry. No, unfortunately. I had too many issues. You had too many issues. Yeah. We're not going to blame her. Yeah, I blame myself. Oh. I take full responsibility. I'm not joking. When you say too many issues, what were the issues? Not in the sense, we don't hear about what you did to Debbie, as it were. but what in your head were the issues that made you feel you couldn't because you would have been looking for having lost in a sense a mother yeah you would have been looking for a wife the mother of your child and you'd want to make it work so what were the issues within you that spoiled that i was emotionally underdeveloped um as somebody who lost their mother although she lived at a very young and tender age.

51:55I had too many expectations in a relationship, so now I'm looking for someone to compensate for what I didn't have, trying to get my girlfriends to be almost like a mother figure to me. I had anger issues that I hadn't dealt with either, so therefore I could blow up very quickly over the most simple things. And while she's still alive, do you begin to think, Actually, our mum was shot by the police. They don't deny that. Her life has been ruined. Our life has been ruined. Is there some compensation that could be paid? Is there some police fund that deals with this? Had you thought of any of that in your head?

52:35Those things wasn't thought about for me as a child. I know those things were happening in the background. And I know that my mum ended up getting some compensation. but I know that the way that was calculated was one her life expectancy was 10 years and two it was for the care that she would need for those 10 years she lived for 26 years so those 16 years after I was the one that had to take care of my mom gosh and how did you give me a flavor of how you helped support her during those 16 years well after a while I got into the music business myself for my love of music started at home but I started DJing eventually I started to organize events myself then eventually I was part of a nightclub I was a partner and then I also did the knowledge and became a black taxi driver so and that helped me because now I could transport my mom in a dignified way but what helped you this is very interesting because you you're a change suddenly you're a changed person having been all over the place uh losing your relationship with your with debbie and having all these anger issues and being on the fringes of criminal behavior you're suddenly a rather successful self-employed person what happened how did that change well one day i had enough of my neighbor was a therapist and i knocked my neighbor and i said i think i need to talk to somebody and she says broadly i can't do it because you're my neighbor but I can introduce you to someone.

54:14And that was my first step towards understanding how my childhood trauma was affecting me as an adult. And who did she introduce you to? To another therapist, Leah, her name was. And I spent over a year with her. Oh, well done. And that changed you? And that, well, I think the first, yeah, it did change me. And I think the first step was for me was unpacking. it gave me the understanding the understanding of self and i was able to even show some empathy to myself because i was very hard on myself about who i'd become um so it allowed me to really understand that this thing happened to you and the way that you are as a result of that is normal this is how it affects people and it helps you because in april 2011 your mother 63 you by then 36 that sort of age yeah i'm actually 37 which was the age that she was when she got shot fine she dies yeah and she just dies because her life has been shortened because of this physical damage to her that's correct were you with her when she died yeah can you talk about that where were you in a hospital or at home hospital and it was for us mom going into hospital but it was normal.

55:33She was in that hospital all the time. She was prone to getting infections. So that was normal. So we went to the hospital and the doctor said, your mum's organs are failing. We could do an operation, but it being successful, even if it is, she would spend the rest of her life on dialysis. So I need you to think about what you think your mum would want. and that was the beginning of the end, in a sense of letting us know that this process is happening. And so we called up everybody, all the siblings, grandchildren, and essentially we stayed there until about 10.30 that night. So all of you came, a lot of you in the room?

56:23Yes. I mean, how many do you think in the room? There was probably about maybe 16 of us in there. And was she aware that you were there? do you think um probably you know she wasn't communicating with us but i think though i felt like there was a sense that she was there was some awareness about what was you know a presence you know our presence in the room and were you sitting or standing by her were you i was um for most of that time i i was sort of like laying on her it was like almost kind of going back to being a child and I was laying on her shoulder and just talking in her ears and letting her know that I will look out for my younger sister because I know that would have been her biggest concern and when she died what did you all do as a group we prayed and then there was this sort of solemn moment where everyone just went into their own mind it was like it was almost like when she got shot there was like that collective mourning but there's also that kind of individual thing that was happening too and i felt like everyone just went into themselves and went into their own reflection about how they were feeling and then you decide actually i'm going to fight for justice you're 37 she's dead and you think actually what do you think about tell me well firstly all the hurt the pain the sense of injustice came flooding back in because we suppressed a lot of those feelings we didn't discuss it as a family i'm thinking what am i gonna do with this and there and there was a part of me that was thinking about revenge you know this was my mum that this happened to but then there was this glimmer of hope in the fact that there was going to be an inquest I remember going to get her death certificate and they said we can't give it to you at this moment because we think there's going to be an inquest into your mum's death why would there be an inquest because you were 63 because they linked the cause of death right back to the original incident wow so she could have died at 63 because you were shot by a police officer in 1985.

58:56That's right. So 2011. Yes. And you think, well, the coroner can maybe unravel this. Yes. So what happens? So that became my moment to channel that energy. So I fully focused on that, probably to the detriment of my relationship at that time, my marriage. But I poured everything into that process. and the first obstacle that we faced was not getting access to legal aid and without legal aid we can't have representation without representation we don't have a voice and i'm not going to allow that to happen for the second time so we then start a petition we get over we got 133 000 people who signed that petition and then we handed that in at 10 down the street and then we got access to legal representation.

59:51So this petition is saying we want justice and we want a proper coroner and we want to be represented at it. You take that to 10 Downing Street, how does one arrange that? Do you get in touch beforehand and say we're going to arrive at a certain time? Yes, and the change.org who we ran the campaign with, they're experts in this. And once we had achieved enough numbers, then then they have to receive it yes officially yeah so you don't get into number 10 but the door is open the door's open and you hand over your box yeah yeah you hand over and then we wait very good and then it all happened from that moment the next obstacle was there was a an internal investigation at the time from west yulkshire police on what happened oh they took another police force to investigate, so they're not investigating themselves.

1:00:44That's right. And they reinvestigated the case. Yes. And what, take us to the bottom line, what was the coroner's verdict and what was the result of this second investigation into what happened? Serious, multiple failings at every level on the planning and implementation of the raid in our home. And they concluded that that was the cause of my mum's death. Wow. Well, well done. Game, set and match to you. Not much satisfaction for the family or your mother, but justice achieved. Absolutely. What happened then to the officers originally involved, not just the officer who held the gun, who you named earlier, but his commanding officer and all the other people who say failures at every level.

1:01:35What was the result of this? did they go back and say well tell me so the result of that outcome just meant that we received the public apology from sir bernard hogan howe and he was the commissioner at the time so he gave this public address and then came to apologize to us in person did you do that well did you find him convincing as a person when you met him i thought the content of what he said was fair. It was correct. Yeah. And whether I felt it was delivered in a really meaningful way is another thing. But the content, the words that were used acknowledged what happened, acknowledged irreparable damage to my mum and her family.

1:02:25So he outlined that the impact wasn't just, you know, in that moment and to my mom. It was wider than that. So the mere fact that that was acknowledged, we, as a family, we were saying, we want some accountability for that. You know, my mom wasn't just, you didn't just step on our toes. My mom died as a result of officer's actions. And at the time, he wasn't prepared to agree to that. He said he had to speak to the powers that be, you know, and come back. and then we got a letter from his solicitor saying they're not going to accept accountability because they owed no duty of care to the children who were traumatized as a result of witnessing that.

1:03:13And that's when the battle began again. So on that day you accepted that he got all the wording right. You were not convinced that it was coming from his heart but his mouth was saying all the right things and you were not satisfied because they stood behind the fact that woman is now dead we can't pay on to the next generation and the generation after that case closed in their view you felt not so you persisted that's right what happened next and and and just to make it clear for us it was about accountability words is one thing but actions is another so two years after we ended up in high court and it was only then with a really good high court judge who was holding them to account and basically saying you did this this happened there was an inquest that found the failings you've apologized why are you refusing to accept accountability and it was only in that moment that in the end they agreed to accept accountability and then that's when we moved to the next process.

1:04:22And you come out of court going, yay! Well, and when we say ultimate victory, nothing can ever

1:04:34replace or compensate for our loss and what we had to go through. And no one was really held accountable in terms of, you know, being punished or disciplined or going to prison, nothing like that happened. So therefore, we didn't get justice in a formal way in which society would expect. All the people involved kept their jobs, completed their careers, and are living on the pensions. Right, yeah. So we see it as we got restorative justice, and that's something that we had to kind of think outside the box to be able to walk away with something and say, you know this was still something significant to us yes justice was done honor was satisfied was money handed over or was money irrelevant compensation was a part of it but the the main thing was the things that we spoke about in terms of what we would like to happen as a result of this because that was the most important thing to us what do we learn how are those lessons implemented and how is it going to make a difference and that that's the work that continues to be done today so you do feel you made a difference yes i mean the kind of thing that happened to you should not in theory ever happen again the systems are supposed to could i guarantee that no no but in theory the systems have been improved the sort of mistakes that happened there has been some improvement and i think it's important to acknowledge that however there's still so much more to do hence why the second book is even this second book the color of injustice what in what are you trying to do with this what is the essence of it because it's other people's stories here isn't it that's right and we successfully had our voice heard eventually it took us 29 years 31 years all in in total but we finally had our voices heard and as a result of that i've gone on to do more stuff i'm a part of police training new recruits oh you help with that you personally personally involved in that and i'm involved in senior leadership training also so i've now built up some experience around how the organizations work i also um advise on some current issues that that take place and this now is my attempt to look at the issue more widely and shine a light and to look at how more importantly how do we move the dial forward because we're not where we should be are you optimistic i mean it used to be said what has been said that the met has been institutionally racist would you take that view now or do you think that isn't the case as an organization i still take that view yeah i still feel they are institutionally racist so that means you've got to change the way the institution operates the the only the institution can change the way they operate but the institution is made up of people isn't it that's right and my my focus at the moment and my hope is in the people.

1:07:56So if you can change the people, the institution over time will change. We can't give up. And in the same way, my mum didn't give up. She went through that ordeal, but she fought right to the end. As far as I'm concerned, all I'm doing is carrying that torch. And then there'll be someone else that will carry the torch once I get to a certain destination. so a wise person once said to me lee you may not see the fruits of your labor in your time but trust people will benefit from what you do and that's the message that i'm hoping that people get across through the book as we go give me your sweetest memory of your mother my sweetest memory is when my mum comes home from Brixton with the food shopping and the one record that she's bought because that's her treat and she puts that record on the record player and the song in particular is called Someone Loves You Honey and it was one of those more real feel-good songs and we got up and we was all dancing in the living room around the coffee table while she played that song.

1:09:14And that reminded me, that's one of my best memories of love and seeing my mum on her feet, enjoying life. And that's sadly what was taken away from her. Well, this, this Lee Lawrence, is for your mum.

1:09:42Day and night And I want you to know That whatever you do And wherever you go Remember Someone loves you, honey No matter what Just be my guy Someone's new, honey More than anything in the world I'm so glad I'm the one This has been More Rosebud, produced by Harriet Jane for Plain Jane Productions, presented by me, Giles Brandreth, and Lee Lawrence's latest book is The Colour of Injustice. Lee Lawrence Costa prize-winning author of The Louder I Will Sing and the new book is published by Abacus Books. Thanks for being with us.