More Rosebud - Lynda La Plante

0:00You asked for more? Well, be careful what you ask for, because now you've got it. Welcome to more Rosebud with me, Charles Brandreth.

0:28This is Rosebud. I'm Giles Brandreth. And today my guest is Linda LaPlante. We've had, oh, more than 100 guests on Rosebud. but I don't think we've had, frankly, a storyteller to rival this one. Linda LaPlante tells an amazing story. That won't surprise you if you know that she's the person who created Prime Suspect. She created Widows as well, Trial and Retribution. I've been reading her memoir, Getting Away with Murder. It's now out in paperback. And that's why I thought, I want this woman on Rosebud because if she can talk the way she writes, it's going to be an extraordinary episode. I've listened to her audiobook, actually, which she reads herself.

1:17And it's got lovely contributions from people like Dawn French and Simon Callow, Helen Mirren, all people I'm hoping will have on Rosebud before long. But today we've got Linda. And, well, you're going to enjoy this. That's going to... Oh, you're supposed to be having a conversation with me. Yes, it is. It's a Tuesday, Giles. I'm so sorry. I got carried away there. Well, I was enjoying listening to it. It was a very good intro. I was impressed. Were you just coming up with that off the cuff? It was improvised. So you're so good at this, Giles. You're just a natural-born podcaster. Can I tell you what is interesting to me?

1:52And I'm very pleased with the way I've coped with this. I'm on tour at the moment. And every Sunday until the end of May, maybe beginning of June, doing a show. and sometimes before the show and during the interval, I sign books, selling them merch, it's called. And now regularly people come up and they say, oh, I love rosebud. Oh, that's good. Some people occasionally ask Michelle, my wife, who is always there with me, oh, are you Harriet? Oh, no. But the point is, people do ask about you. Oh, that's good. Well, I'll go on tour with you next time. Well, maybe. On the rosebud tour. People have asked for a rosebud tour.

2:29We'll see if that materialises or not. At the moment, we're just so happy to be making Rosebud, which on a Tuesday has an interview, a conversation with somebody who is remarkable. Have you, do you watch Prime Suspect on TV? I loved Prime Suspect. Yeah, it's brilliant. Because obviously now there are so many of those crime, but it is the original and best, isn't it? Did we ask Linda LaPlante when she was born? We must have known that during our research. Do we need to know that? She was born in 1943. We interview quite a few people from that era, don't we? And it's very interesting to get a flavour of a totally different world when attitudes, societal attitudes were very different and when the war was very much present, the Second World War in their lives.

3:13It's amazing to think we're going to be soon coming up to, well, almost a century since the war. It's 80 years since VE Day, isn't it? Yeah. Wow. Anyway, the point is, it's Linda LaPlante. And what did you make of her as a conversationalist? I think this is one of the best. I mean I was on the edge of my seat in the recording and so funny as well this is a real treat it's excellent this is a real treat and it's free for you given to you there's no this is the joy there is no license fee to pay and I've discovered I've discovered a way of fast forwarding if you don't like the commercials I love the commercials myself but you can fast forward them on don't tell them that that's how you that's how you pay cut that bit cut the bit about fast-forwarding the commercials.

3:59I love the commercials. I love reading them. The Aviva one has worked really well, hasn't it? It's excellent, Giles. No, to be honest, it is excellent. And why are we playing it as often as we are? It's done by the computer. It's not done by me. Oh, because the algorithm gave me the Aviva at the beginning. Then it gave me the Aviva halfway through, a shortened version of that. Twice, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I love Aviva. Yeah. Aviva, click. I love it. I'm all in favour of it. Bring on the Aviva. Meanwhile, bring on Linda LaPlante. You're in for a treat. Oh, somebody the other day, this you'll find hard to believe, I'm doing the show, I can't remember where it was, Woking, or maybe the Warwick Arts Centre, which, ladies and gentlemen, if you're going there, bear in mind it's in Coventry.

4:43The Coventry Arts Centre, that's in Warwick, but the Warwick Arts Centre is in Coventry. Somebody in the audience, I just come on, and they called out, cue the music. Oh, did they? Isn't that fantastic? Brilliant. Come on then. One, two, three. Cue the music.

5:09Linda, before we begin, by way of preamble, what's the Freddie Mercury story? I remember reading your memoir, and there was one paragraph that came out on the page, I thought, my goodness, Freddie Mercury knocked on your door, and did you answer? What happened? I did. Well, I had no idea who he was. And I lived in a wonderful flat in Queensgate that had been once owned by a Russian countess. So Freddie Mercury's at the front door. No idea who he is, but I recall the very large buck teeth. he said excuse me he said is the countess and i said no i'm very sorry the countess died rather a long time ago has she still got her organ and i said yes she has i actually have it now and he said well can i come in and play the organ and i said no you can't and i shut the front door that is the Freddie Mercury interaction and only one I've ever had good I'm glad we've got that out of the way thank you very much because that actually is the only reason I wanted to talk to you because I'm such a Freddie Mercury sort of groupie I want to meet anyone who's had any relationship with Freddie Mercury but if that's it that's it seriously let's begin now and we want to begin right at the beginning and we always begin with the same question it's simply this What, Linda, is your very, very first memory?

6:47I'm not sure how old I was, but I remember what I was wearing. I had a blue coat with dark velvet blue buttons, and it had a little blue velvet collar. The clothes I remember very, very clearly, but I do not remember who I was with. So it could have been a nanny, someone taking me out to feed the ducks. And Duck Pond was across rather a busy road, and there was a bus stop on the right-hand side. So whoever was taking me across the road said, now wait, wait. And she was holding my right hand higher, because I remember I felt as if I was slightly off the ground. And a bus was coming from the right-hand side, and there was a man.

7:50He had a rolled, tight umbrella, and he had a dachon, a sausage dog, on a longish lead. And the little dog just stepped straight in front of the bus. And I can remember this man picking up this Dachshund dog, and he said, entirely my fault. And that memory is as clear I could paint me and the recall of what an extraordinary thing for this man to say. Entirely my fault. His pet had just been run over by the bus. But that's my very first memory. Well, it's fascinating. And it could, in fact, almost be the story of your life. Because there you were, feeling that you were just being a little bit off the ground.

8:48And there is a man acknowledging, it's entirely my fault. And given how you have written about women and men whose fault it has been for much of your life, I think this is very apt. So when was this and where was this? This was, as I said, my age, maybe I'd be two. I can't remember. And it was quite close to the school I eventually went to. And it was called Stratham House. And this was in Great Crosby, Blundelsands, Liverpool. Ah, a suburb of Liverpool. Suburb of Liverpool. Who were your parents? My parents were William and Florence. I think my father actually... And were they known as William and Florence?

9:36Were they known as Bill and Flossie? No, he was known as Bungalow Bill before somebody else got that title. One of Joan Collins' paramours. Yeah, I remember. But he was known as Bungalow Bill because he used to spend a lot of time at the golf course. He loved that place. and Sundays he used to really get a little bit tiddly and my parents eventually sort of retired and they had a bungalow very close to the golf course but my father could never remember which bungalow he lived in and so he became known as Bungalow Bill constantly turning up at other people's houses for Sunday lunch piddled and my mother was called Flossie Florence, Flossie.

10:25And what were they like as people? Describe them. Well, your mother, first of all, Flossie, as you remember as a little girl. Well, my mother was very, very beautiful, very pretty woman, very pretty. Very social. They had cocktail parties. They had wonderful friends. You know, her best friend was called Sybil. They were delightful people who were very warm, openly generous people and extraordinarily private. Was her life being a mother and a housewife? Did she have a job ever? No, my mother never worked. And your father, how did he earn a living? I have no idea. Because you mentioned the possibility of a nanny.

11:11So clearly there was some money here. Yes, there was money. Well, enough money. There was never a lot of money. The nanny situation would have arisen out of tragedy. And the tragedy being? I had an elder sister, and her name was Dale. And Dale was six. The thing about Dale was her beauty. My mother had jet black hair, and only Dale had the same coloured hair, and she also had ice china blue eyes. She was a child that people stopped in the street to look at her beauty. She was perfection and she was cruelly, horrifically killed by an accident, going to look for a Christmas tree with an older pupil from her school.

12:09And the tragedy was made more poignant, I think, because my mother was pregnant with me and was wheeling my brother, who was four, in a pushchair and turned a corner. And a woman said, don't go around, don't turn, don't turn around there. Something terrible has happened. And she saw her shoe. and it was a patent leather T-bone strap shoe and she knew it was Dale, gone. But she didn't die. She lived for horrific horror, two weeks in screaming and I was therefore born in tragedy. And this was a road accident. She was running over by a lorry or a car. Caught between the two big massive wheels. Oh my goodness.

13:06So that tragedy was marked throughout my entire life without it being tragic. Because your parents' portrait remained, it was everywhere. Everywhere. And people would say, who's that? I'd say, that's my sister. But I never knew her. and so I think for a long period of time my mother was inconsolable. And with a baby it's understandable there were other people looking after me, one of whom was my grandmother. Who was your mother's mother? Yes, Gertrude, Gertie. And she was good news, was she? She was quite extraordinary woman. She was about six foot with a hawk nose. She was absolutely the most dominant woman I've ever known in my life.

14:04She used to have a rolled umbrella and she would hold it up as she crossed the road, never looking right or left. And she said they'd stop. And they did, screeching to a halt as she marched across the road. Always wore wonderful hats. And my best memory of her. In Liverpool, there is the infamous Adelphi Hotel. One day she said, I'm taking you to the Adelphi for lunch. And it was such a grand hotel in those days. Oh, the marble and the waiters and the men and the red carpet as you end up. And I think age-wise, maybe five. And she'd ordered roast chicken, vegetables, tomato soup. and were served.

14:55And she suddenly, when the chicken came, she said, young man, come here, now, come here. This is not chicken. This is rabbit. And he said, oh, no, no, absolutely assure you that that, of course, he had had a Liverpool accent, but I assure you that is not rabbit. She said, young man, I am very aware of what is a two-legged creature and what is a four. This is a rabbit. I have never known such crushing embarrassment in my entire life as I sat there because everyone was clustering around as she's prodding this thing and holding up the bone of it. Look at it, look at it. And that was the only time I ever went to the Adelphi.

15:46Do you think you've got more from your grandmother, the person you are now became, than from your mother? in fact? I don't know really. I think I do mimic my mother sometimes. And how do you mimic your mother? Things she used to say and things she used to do. She was very posh. You know, she liked to be very posh. Her cocktails. She was a sweetheart. And was the shadow of this tragedy of losing your sister with her always? Always. For the rest of her life? Never left. But did it impinge upon you? Did she make it difficult for the, how many others were remaining of the family? My sister and my brother.

16:30Yeah. But no, it was like an unspoken.

16:39If you met my mother and she was still alive today and said, how many children do you have? She'd say four. Dale never died. This is the thing with death. She remains six. She remains perfect, beautiful. Her books, even to the point when my mother died, all she wanted was Dale. Her hat. Was one of the reasons that maybe your father drank a little bit more than was good for him, than he was often tiddly, was he coping with the tragedy in that way do you think no i don't think so he was just absolutely adored his mates at the golf club absolutely he loved his friends did he did he love your mother i mean how they adored her adored her because she was so beautiful and she was always so well dressed i had no idea i know nothing about their past and why do you not know how he earned his living?

17:42Did he not go out in the morning to work? He did, always with a very posh car and he would be gone for weeks on end sometimes. I have no notion of exactly what he did. Is it possible that he was one of these marvellous people, not marvellous but interesting people, who was leading a double life? No, he didn't lead a double life. He was a hard-working man. He was some form of a salesman but what kind of a salesman, I don't know. I mean my family was very eccentric. My father and my grandmother didn't speak to each other. So we'd have dinner every night and the family would be there at dinner and they were able to have this non-communication throughout my entire childhood.

18:31So you'd hear, tell your grandmother to pass the assault. And that would be past. What happened? It obviously has a tale or connection to Dale, but it was quite somewhere. Some unspoken thing happened that was unforgivable. Not her death, but probably things that went on within the house because sometimes I remember things that I apparently said that upset people. Can you give an example? I hit an apple pie with a spoon and my mother was so preoccupied by her apple pies. She made the best apple pie. You could take her anywhere and her apple pie would win awards. And she used to really mash the apples so that they were very, very, very, very soft.

19:36And then this crisp pastry. They were delicious. And I hit it with a spoon and I said, hard as brick. As a joke, you know. And that was what Dale had said the day she died. Oh, you weren't to know. So things like that. No, I didn't know. You weren't to know, of course. And also the other thing is you have a beautiful child and then you have me. Were you not a pretty girl? No, not at all. I was a bit short and squat. You know, I had this reddish hair and very naughty. She was like this ghost. Not in a bad way. I don't mean in a frightening way. she was perfection and nothing ever could meet up with her and so therefore in a family my brother hated me he used to do terrible things to me and I thought he was the most magical person in this earth and he say would you like to come and play Cowboys and Indians on the beach oh yes right okay we're going to the beach and we're taking her with us mother he tied me to a bolster on the beach and left me for four and a half hours as the tide was coming in and he said well you were a captive indian and every time he asked to play with me he did something terrible over and over again.

21:13Whether somewhere in his young mind I replaced Dale, I don't know. He never spoke of it and, I mean, he never really knew who I was. Did you become friends later in life? No, never really. he never read a book of mine or was particularly interested in anything that I did none of my family were and he used to say why don't you write a comedy we don't like this awful drama, all this crime stuff oh, dreadful and so he had three great sons none of them have read anything none of them have any interest in my life or my career whatsoever

22:08and who who is your first friend outside of this unusual family i had a friend at school i can't quite remember her name can't come to me but she lived on a farm she said to me do you want to come to the farm for the weekend because one of our cows is calving. So I asked if I could go and stay with her. And we were woken in the middle of the night to say it was happening. And we were in our dressing gown and slippers, and we were taken down to the stables where this cow was birthing. And there was a lot of... Oh, God. Oh, God. I mean, I, to be quite honest, had no idea where babies came from, never mind where little baby calves came from.

23:04And it was born with no head. Oh. And it came out with a pointed neck. Oh, no. And I thought, good heavens. And then at some point, the head followed. and I presume that everybody... Was born this way. Was born this way. With a little pointy head. Yes. I thought, oh, how fascinating that is. No head. And nobody ever kind of... We were hurried away. Quickly, get out, get out, come on, quickly. Again, that memory is so powerful. I'm not surprised. Because of the point of the neck coming out. When did you discover the facts of life? oh god I was so late late I never really knew anything I remember we wanted a mouse and my mother said you can have one mouse one only one and we went to the pet shop and got the biggest mouse we could find and of course we'd only had it a week and it had 13 babies and we were overrun with white mine.

24:12And another memory of me, we were in Corwin Bay, we were there for a holiday there was something going on and I was told to go to the conservatory and be quiet and there was an old lady in a wheelchair sitting in the sun and I went over to her and I said, hello she said, hello dear and I said, would you like to see my pet? and she said yes I would like that and I went and my white mouse popped up out of my jacket and he used to sit on my neck and she fainted and I was removed and I can remember my father saying when did you take the mouse out did you take it to her oh I got such a telling off were you a naughty girl yes I'm afraid so and why do you think you were a naughty girl I don't know.

25:09I used to just be naughty. Just mischievous? Yes. And did that make you popular at school? No, not particularly. My school could have been St Trinian's. Ah, how wonderful. It was a wonderful, wonderful school. The only main thing that every pupil had to know was how to fillet a fish. And that was one of our major lessons, filleting a fish. This sounds like an independent girls' school. It was. Stretham House. And there were two very elderly ladies which were their headmistresses. Violet and her sister. You know, there's those ladies with white buns and huge chests. Yes, quite low slung. Yes, very low slung.

25:57And if you were naughty, you had to knock on their drawing room door and they'd say, Enter! And they would reprimand you. and they wanted to, her name was Sylvia in my class and she said, have you got any of the moulds? The moulds. And I said, what moulds? Oh, she said, I've got Snow White and Seven Dwarfs. I've got Rare Rabbit. I said, what are they? She said, oh, you put plaster of Paris in the mould and then you paint them. Oh, moulds. You know, you can make a good amount of money. You can sell these. I said, well, where do you get them from? Oh, well, on a Wednesday walk, we get them then.

26:46So what they were doing was nipping into Smith's and stealing these moles. And I thought, ooh, I want to do that. They were sort of rubber, I remember them. You filled them with plaster of Paris. Absolutely. And then there was a little painting set that came in the same box. I mean, she had Snow White, seven dwarfs, and I think she had about ten extra dwarfs that she was bartering around. So her desk lid actually wouldn't come down because she had so much rubber in it. And anyway, it began these Wednesday walks. Now, I was very small, and so I was always at the front, and it was very difficult to nip out of sight into Smith's, grab a jelly mold, get out, and join the line-up.

27:37But I was determined to do this. I was going to get Snow White, no matter what. Anyway, I nip in, and the only thing I could get was a reel of sellotape. So I got that sellotape. The next day, Daisy Harvey, the door opened. In she comes, Daisy Harvey. Attention, please. This is a terribly, very sad moment for Streatham House School. Please do come in, Officer Harris. In comes a police officer with a very large helmet under his arm. And he goes, good afternoon. It has come to the school's attention that a large amount of theft has been occurring at Smith's in the High Street. Now, Officer Harris is going to teach you all a little lesson.

28:34And he said, I'm not here to arrest anybody. I just want the truth. Those that tell the truth will be spoken to with respect. Those that lie will not. Now, anyone in this form removed any item from Smith's? And on he went. Now, being small, I'm in the front row. Who puts her hand up? Me. You did the right thing, Linda. I was the only one in the class where Sylvia, five rows behind, had a desk full of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. So, I can't tell you what that roll of sellotape, you know. What did it cost you? No, the confrontation with my father. So, why did you take a roll of sellotape? Don't know.

29:26You have to know. Did you need a roll of sellotape? No, I just saw it. So, you stole a roll of sellotape and it went on and on and on and on and on. Very, very traumatic. Gosh, well, that is quite a story. Were you reading at that stage? Did you have books or comics? Did you have a weekly comic that you bought? No, no weekly comic or anything like that. But I was completely dyslexic. And I was very, very... Before dyslexia was a known thing. Before it was nobody. You were just on the silly table. I mean, can you imagine in school today? Can't read, go on the silly table. The silly table? Yes, there was stupid table, silly table.

30:09Silly table was below the stupid table. on the silly table now go go can't read get off there at one point miss ash noticed that i had a book upside down very carefully turning the pages called me out and she said would you sit and read to me i couldn't read and she said when we go around asking stories you tell stories as if you're reading a book, don't you? Yes. She said, so where do you get your stories from? And I said, I make them up because I don't know the letters. But you were a storyteller. Did you listen to the wireless at home? No, no. Did you go to the cinema? No. Saturday morning films for?

30:58Caged very late on, I did. But Miss Ash made for me, only me, an alphabet. A big chart by the letter A was an apple and an ape. So she said, now tell me what that is, apple. Give me the sound of the apple. Ah, good, A. What's that beside her? Ape. Good, ah, A. And I was reading so quickly, I was like, avaricious. I couldn't stop reading and learning. because suddenly the letters became clear. Nowadays, it is tragic how many pupils are stamped with dyslexic as if it's a fault. It isn't. In many ways, it's a blessing because you have a phenomenal memory. You know, they want to put labels on every child at such a young age.

32:00I read somewhere that you have a photographic memory. Yeah. Is that right? Is that correct? What does that mean? I just remember everything. You can see a page and then look at it and then remember what's on the page? Pretty well. Gosh. And when you were at school as a teenager, did you have ambitions? Did you think, did you know what your life was going to be as a girl? No, no idea. Were you doing things at school? Were you in the school plays? Were you a sporting person? We did have plays. I was never in them. I was ballet, ballet, ballet. I was going to be a ballet dancer. And did you take that forward?

32:33Did that after school? I went to, you know, I passed all the elementary exams to be a dancer. And came to London. Oh, to apply for the Royal Ballet School? Yes. To go to White Lodge? To White Lodge. This was a very big thing. Very big thing. You take your position and you're in front of a very long trestle table where you're being examined to see if you can go through the next grade and the next grade before you enter White Lodge. And they said, first position and second. Points, first position. And I heard Dame Beryl Gray, very famous ballerina, very quietly say, there's something wrong with her arms.

33:24And so they said, would you come to the table? So I went to the table and they said, would you stretch out your right arm? So I stretched out my right arm, and there was this quiet... It is, I'm right, she's deformed. Yes, yes, and they're both the same, yes, deformed. Well, thank you very much for coming. So I went out, and I said to my mother, they just said I was deformed. And she said, well, it's not from my side. that was it it was not oh poor darling what's the matter with you what do you mean deformity and my hands are connected to my wrist bone it's the most bizarre deformity and it's in all the medical books oh you really are deformed yes i'm really really deformed oh no uh look i will now I'll show you.

34:21The deformity. Oh, I see. I'm afraid. And my hands are back to front. They really are. I can see that wouldn't look very good. No. So that was the ballet. Put a kibosh on. That really, oh dear. So what else was on offer? Well, then my mother was very distressed about this because she paid for my private lessons from ballet school since the age of three. So elocution was next. I've never been a fan of anything before, but in elocution I met Dawn McCormick. How Dawn McCormick ever came to be at Stratham House School is a wonder because she was so beautiful, so sophisticated. I mean, she used to have slightly bucked teeth with a bit of lipstick across them.

35:16Oh, dear, I was in love with Dawn McCormick's youth. And she had wonderfully beautiful stylish dresses, floaty underskirt, just a little bit of slip showing. Oh, everything about Dawn was just perfect. But I became obsessed with reading Byron Shelley. She used to make me repeat over and over Spencers, the Fairy Queen. and then she said one day, you know, when you're doing poetry, you're not really supposed to move and you seem to want to move. I think you may want to be an actor. You know, if you'd said to me, would you like to be a trapeze artist? If she'd asked me, I'd have said, yes, exactly, yes, anything.

36:04So she said, have you ever heard of a place called RADA? No. Well, it's a big drama school in London. And I think you should try and audition. I'd never been to the theatre. I'd never been to a play. Gosh. Or a pantomime. Nothing. Gosh. And so, guided by Dore, who then said, now there's a Mrs. Edkins, wonderful lady who lives in Liverpool in the city centre. She will give you some acting lessons. Mrs Aikens was about 80 very short sighted she had bifocal glasses on you know very thick heavy legs and so camp right darling you've got to throw yourself about a bit if you're being Joan of Arc you've got to really show it you know let it rip let it rip and she'd fling this awful body of hers around and so gradually Mrs.

37:11Aikens taught me and got me ready for the audition for RADA. Gosh. And they had to up my age because I was only 15. So back to London you came? On my own. I mean, when I said to my father, I want to go to RADA, he said, well, I'll come with you. What is it? Is it a pub, a bar? And my mother said, oh, no, no, she's going for some audition for something. There was no Royal Academy of Dramatic Art, you know. So I had never been to an audition, apart from working with Mrs Aitken. So I had no idea. Now I'd got white high-heeled shoes on and a very full flared skirt with an underskirt with 22 edges of lace and a tight belt.

38:03It was Bridget Bardot, here I come. And it was, because this was 1958 about. And at the audition, my real name is Titchmarsh, and it was something like, in this dungeon of a theatre, and all these people lined up next, Linda Tipmouse, number 44, on I totter in the high heel shoes and the skirt. And what are you going to do for us, came from the doom back of the theatre. I said, St. Joan by Annui. St. Joan was a young woman who was burnt on set. We are aware of who Joan of Arc is. Would you like to get on with it, please? So I was about to launch in. And I said, would you mind if I take my shoes off?

38:56No, not at all. So I took the shoes off and then, could I take my underskirt off? as long as you're not taking anything else or else you may carry on. And so I got this scholarship to Marda. A scholarship, congratulations. It's a wonderful achievement. And who was in your year? Can you remember any of the other people? Ian McShane. Ian McShane. John Hurt. John Hurt. They were my close buddies. Well, if you hadn't discovered the facts of life before, knowing both of those people, I think you would have discovered them quite quickly. I was so green, it wasn't true. I mean, there was a pupil there, and her name was Morag, and she had short-cropped, incredible crew-cut hair, and she used to smoke Gitan's cigarettes.

39:46And she had a leather handbag. Oh, my God. With suede in line. Oh, please. She was just the epitome of that. And one day in the canteen, she said, Have you got a gyno? and I said have you? She said well of course I have I just thought everybody had a so I'm with Ian McShane and John Hart and another actor called Terry Taplin and I said what's a gyno? and Ian McShane goes I don't know John what's a gyno? and Terry Taplin said oh I know what it is He said, you know those maps when they've got those geologists and they put little flags up of that? That's the kind of... I said, well, why is more I've got one?

40:35And it was just... That's how naive. They were a few years older than you, weren't they? Yeah. And did you love your time at Rada? Were you a success then? I hated it. Oh, why? Why? Well, I was too young. Didn't know anything. You learn at such an early age that you're never going to make it there. There's a world, it's brutal. In my final term at Rodda, your final term, you are desperate to get a decent part because you've worked two years and your last performance, you have agents. You can become a star overnight by all the agents if you've got a decent part and are good, you can be plucked into stardom.

41:30Literally. We know because we... And so when those casting lists go up at the end of your time, the thunder of footsteps towards... Oh, God, what about it? And the principal of Rodder had a daughter, Karen Fernald. and every leading role she had, every single part. And, you know, the heart is dropping as I'm looking and one part was Sister Teresa in a play called The Cradle Song and I was 78 in the first act and she aged 10 years. And the next play, I was a drunken, drunken, elderly woman found in the gutter. That was the two years of my life spent training for this. And Sister Teresa, the cradle song, had two lines in the first act, which was ding, ding, ding, went the doorbell.

42:41and Mother Superior said, Sister Teresa, would you please get the door? Yes, Mother. I went out, I came back and I said, Mother, it's the doctor. Please allow him to come in. Yes, Mother. That was it. I behaved myself throughout rehearsals, sitting there and they gave me a little thing of crochet to do, which I did. I learnt crocheting. I don't know when I decided to do it or what nerve made me do it. It just happened. And so we only have the play for one night at the Vanbury Theatre with all the agents and say, we're off, we're up. Sister Teresa, would you get the door? Pardon?

43:46Sister Teresa, would you get the door? The door? The door? Ooh, yes, yes. Just a minute. It took me so long to get from the chair to the door that I got a round of applause. I was so decrepit. And I remember I aged 10 years in the next act. And when the curtain came down, this director said, I have worked at the Royal Academy for 20 years and I have never in my life seen an entire production ruined. You've ruined this place. I don't know why I did it, but I did it. And you did the right thing. Did you get an agent as a result? Were they queuing around the block? I did, actually. Yes, of course.

44:37Strangely enough.

44:44Did he get you work? Did you get some work as an actress? Yes, he did, actually. He got me an audition for Bramwicks at the Whitehall Theatre. Oh, the famous Whitehall farces. Yes. And, I mean, this, to my family, was saying I got an Oscar. Yeah. Because the only thing my family ever really, really ever thought about as theatre was Bramwicks. So, therefore, I'd come out of RADA and I'd made it. Whitehall farce. Oh, this was incredible. But it was a West End show with a master of fast. You probably learned something from him. Oh, so much. But when I went up for the audition, I was auditioning for Lady Cynthia.

45:30Hello, Aunty, it's Cynthia here. Would you like me to serve some tea? Thank you very much. Off. So I was obviously not right for Lady Cynthia. And I went off the wrong way. And I ended up underneath the stage. and I didn't know what to do. It was inky, dark, black. And all I could hear was, Hello, it's Cynthia. Would you like me to wait? One after the other. And I'm under the stage and I'm in inky dark and I'm now on hands and knees because I presume if I go all the way across underneath this stage, I've got to find a door. So I am now covered in dust and faith. And they're still saying, Hello, Auntie Cynthia, would you like another cup of tea?

46:14When I burst onto the stage, He said, Mr. Rick, I'm very sorry I've been downstairs all this time and I couldn't find my way out. The Liverpool accent was there, everything. And he went, has she read for the maid? Oh. And I got the part of the maid. Well done. See, it's an ill wind. Wonderful. I mean, they taught me, they were the masters of fossa. Yeah. Trips, double trips, wonderful teachers. I had a marvellous time. And of your years as an actress, what for you is the most memorable, what's the thing you're proudest of? And maybe the thing you're most ashamed of of your time actually as a performer?

46:57Calamity Jane. Oh. I love doing Calamity Jane. The musical Calamity Jane? Yeah. And what part did you play? Calamity Jane. Oh, the lead. My gosh, you can sing as well as dance. Why then did you give it up? What happened? Because I was so bored with it. Bored? Oh, you know, it's, you go for TV, you're doing the same part. And because, you know, my CV goes, Liverpool, short, redhead, prostitute. Oh, I see. I played a prostitute in every single crime show that was ever on TV. I think I did two or three in said cars. And it was, hello, you're coming my way. Oh, hello, love. a little darling, one after the other.

47:44A fellow screenwriter, Julian Fellows, said to me that it's marvellous to be typecast because at least you get regular work. So you could have gone on being a prostitute as the years went by. A prostitute just got older and older. There's even more work for the ageing prostitute. And Julian Fellows, you know, he played a barrister in a number of my shows. He was very, very good. Exactly, typecast, you know what you want. Yes. So you gave it up and you became a writer. How did that all happen? And didn't give it up, give it up. I was just bored with it. And you get to a point, you know, I was at the Royal Shakespeare Company and the tedium of working with actors.

48:22I remember one actor, she said, you don't call them actresses now, you have to say actor. And I had to run on stage. It was a very dangerous run. I had to charge onto the stage. And the actress before me, or actor before me, used to have a scene with a lot of coat hangers and throw them about. So I said, could you be a bit careful where you throw the coat hangers? Why? I said, because I'm running on very fast for a big blowout scene and I'm falling over the coat hangers. It's dangerous. Well, it's nothing to do with me. I said, just be careful where you throw them, not by the door when I'm coming in.

49:10Well, I mean, you know, it's a very emotional scene. I said, I know it's an emotional scene. I said, please watch what you're doing with the coat hangers. Next night, on I come, there are the coat hangers. So I said, excuse me, ladies and gentlemen, would you mind awfully if I just clear the stage a bit? So I picked up the coat hangers, threw them to one side and carried on. Trevor Nunn happened to be in that night. and there was that, I need a little word with you. He was the artistic director, yeah. We don't do that at the Royal Shakespeare Company. We don't do that. And that tedium was getting worse and worse and I'd almost kind of thrown the towel in and I wrote Widows.

50:01Oh, just like that. Just like that. Had you got married by then? I think I might have been getting married. What was your husband? He's the man why you're called LaPlante. Yes. What was his full name? The only good thing he ever gave me. What was his full name? Richard. Richard LaPlante. Yeah. Was he your first proper boyfriend, given you a late developer? Oh, no, no. There was a little interim. A lot of interim. Who was your first boyfriend? The first... The very first... Yes. The first holding of hands, the first kiss, the... Oh, it was Richard Greenwood. Oh. The great rugby player. Oh. Yeah, a friend of my brother's, yeah.

50:43Oh. I adored him. Good. For many, many years. He was the most wonderful person. Oh. And still is. And why did that not develop into something long-lasting? Well, he was at Cambridge and I was at RADA. Oh. And I still treasure his love letters to me more than anyone. else. Only him, really. I've kept all his letters. That's the joy of that era. People did write to one another. Now there's, you know, there's an emoji if you're lucky. But he was the most lover of my life, I think. And what did he have? I mean, apart from being a magnificent specimen. He was. Well, exactly. He was that. But he was also very, very intelligent, very witty and very poetic, very well read.

51:31Oh. And I adored him. But, you know, we were both very young, both starting on. And then this Richard LaPlante, what did he have to offer? Can you remember when you first saw him? Well, the first time I saw him was at a big society wedding in Virginia Waters. Oh, yeah. And he was naturally white blonde hair down to his shoulders. Extraordinarily handsome face. That's a good start. Very good start. And a lunatic. He was in a rock band. And he traced me from that first meeting. He traced me to Belgrade Theatre Coventry when I was playing Regan in King Lear. Well, that's... I mean, actually, pursuit is quite attractive too.

52:24Yeah. He came with his good looks, his rock band. And he conquered very easily. And he conquered, I see, almost every night. Yeah. Why was the end at Nye for you and Richard? What went wrong with the marriage? Oh, I should have got rid of him 12 years again. Oh, you were with him for 12 years? No, 18. Oh, a long marriage. Yeah. And he was just useless. He was actually very fascinating. He was a fascinating person. And he drew people to him like a magnet because of his looks. He was quite extraordinarily handsome man and a guru, but completely inept. I mean, and we traveled across Mexico and he was doing a lot of buying and selling in Mexico.

53:11and he kept failing at everything that he did. Everything that he attempted, he failed. You'd hoped to have children with him? That would be part of your plan? Oh, yes, yes. But that didn't materialise? No, I had miscarriage after miscarriage and then he really felt that adopting would not be good. And you were keen to adopt? Very. So that became a kind of... At that point, you know, when you say, I don't think it's ever going to work, you can't go on losing one after another. And then one of the worst times of my life was I was at Chelsea Fertility Clinic. And it's very difficult when you're at these fertility clinics because you're often put into an area where they're a very heavily pregnant woman going, oh, I wouldn't bother if I were, oh, I wouldn't bother.

54:13Or you've got very young waiting to have a desperate abortion. So you're in that very strange group in these clinics. And eventually I'm called in for my two o 'clock. And there was a rather pompous man. And he said, well, we've done the test and the reason is you're too late, you know. That's it, really. I said, what do you mean? I was here promptly two o 'clock and I've always kept time. And I've been here and it's only ten past two. He said, no, no, no. He said, you've started the menopause. It's too late. Oh. And so I said, oh, oh. Oh, I see. So I walked down the corridor and I stopped. and I thought that is a terrible thing to do to somebody.

55:04So I went back, knocked on the rise, said, excuse me, if you ever meet somebody at my age and you tell them you're in an early menopause, just do it a lot better. Slammed out. And that was a kind of very big wallop and it came at such a time that you're so unsuspecting of it because I had been trying. There was one very funny time at the fertility clinic when I was told that I had to have intercourse and get into the clinic for a test to see if I was, something in my body was killing off the sperm or possibly it was Richard's sperm. So I said, OK, that's right. So I got home and I said, we've got to have intercourse and I've got to go back in the night.

55:57He said, I can't do it tonight. He said, I've got karate. He said, it's a bit of a big night. I said, well, we could do it. I said, look, I'll ring. So I ring Chelsea Clinic. I am on the fertility phone. I go, hello. Oh, I'm so glad. I said, I have an appointment tomorrow to have a test and I just need to know if I need to have intercourse in the evening or do I have intercourse in the morning before I come in for the test well if I were you I'd have it both times I said oh really I said are you a doctor he said no I'm a decorator I've just picked up the phone because it was ringing

56:51and so these insulins sometimes you get such but eventually you did have a son because you adopted yes i did when you are an older woman and a much older woman i mean how old were you when you adopted your boy about 52 is he called lawken lawken lawken great name yeah and how did how did you organize that because by then you were a single woman yeah well i'd gone through uh ivf I had failed that and given up. And it's a very strange moment in a woman's life to realise it's over. There's no hope. And I was at a very close friend's house in the Hamptons who had a wonderful slanting lawn down to the water where there were rows of kayaks.

57:40and I was standing there and I saw this young woman just walking towards me with a child of about maybe 18 months, blonde, balanced on her hip and it was so extraordinary because the pain, it was like a punch and I thought, I'll never have that, ever. Even now, it makes me want to cry, but it was so extraordinary to get home. And there's a phone call. And I think I joined every single adoption society in Florida, you name it, wherever. I put my name down. And there was a baby in Florida. and I mean it was just like the most extraordinary. And did you go to Florida? The following day. And you arrived in time?

58:47In time for his birth. So you saw your baby being born? No, because she was quite fragile and he was quite... But within hours, within days? Yes, yeah. And I mean the lunacy of it was I had nowhere to stay, I didn't know what to do. I just said, I'll get the plane. Nobody knew. Not one person in my life knew what I was doing. I don't think I really knew, truthfully. And the legal ramifications were incredibly difficult to get. But I just flew out there. And the weird thing is, is that, man, he was an ugly baby. Oh, you know, you think, oh, this is going to be. you know the predominant child oh dear heavens he had terrible birth mark over his nose and the biggest hands and i thought oh but the overriding unbelievable powerful emotion was i will never let any harm come to you you know this was my this was it this sprawling ugly and with these hands wafting in my face.

1:00:03I'll never allow any pain to get to you. And did you manage that without suffocating him? Yeah, I think too well, really. Well, maybe you did suffocate him a bit. You overloved him. No? But it's been a success. Yes, he's an incredible boy. Training to be a pilot. Well done. Nearly there. Well done. Now look, we're coming to the end of our time, so you're going to have to rely on me to plug your books, etc., after we've finished our conversation, and I will, but anyone listening to you will know... I hope so. I've not been here for nothing. No, will know, just listening to you, that you are one of the great storytellers.

1:00:38You really are a great storyteller. Hence the success of Widows and then Prime Suspect, the book and then the series and Helen Mirren. Did you get on well with her? I adore her. Oh, good. Yeah, and Zoe Wanamaker, I love them. Two great actresses. Good. And Mitchell from Widows. They're all still my close friends. Well, I shall recommend all of that, including the memoir, which I've got on my bedside, and the new book, Crucified. But I have three quick questions before we lose you. I want you to cast your mind back, really, on your younger years and give me a moment of joy, ecstasy, pleasure. In fact, it could be any part of your life.

1:01:22It's been a long time now. Joy. Suddenly, what comes into your head? well it's hard because i've just expressed joy the joy of my son yeah and my middle name is joy oh um that is that surpasses any form of joy i've ever i know does he call himself la plant or titchmash oh la plant you quite like being called the plant despite yes it's the only decent thing my husband never gave me. His name. And he tried to get it back, but I wasn't giving it to him. Oh, really? Yeah. Did he want, he didn't want you to use it professionally? No, he wanted his name back. And because I was married in America, you know, they have the right.

1:02:08No, to reclaim their name. I didn't know that. Yeah. I must bear that in mind when I next get married.

1:02:16So, yes, we can have joy and your son as being the moment of joy. That phone call can be your moment of joy. Okay, a moment of sadness. I'll cry. That's okay. We'll cry too. We always do. I don't think I can even...

1:02:40My dog died. This is quite recently. Oh, I'm sorry. And I loved... How long did you have him? Three and a half years. Oh, not long. And what sort of dog was she? He was a boy's eye. Oh. And he was... Quite classy. He was beautiful. I bet he was. Boy's eyes are. But I love that dog. Oh, I'm sorry. I don't think I've ever known such terrible grief in my life. the picture of him of such beauty. And then to see him, I tried to give him the kiss of life, but his tongue was cold. I've never known any pain like it. I still grieve all this time. He died in August, but I still mourn him. I miss him every day.

1:03:46More so, I think, truthfully, it was the first time I knew what grief was. Also, to know that that grief my parents had, how did they cope? We've come full circle back to Dale. What do you think you've learnt in your now quite long life? What have you learnt? What do you share with Lorcan and our listeners that you have learnt? The most important thing is rejection does not mean no. I live by that. Explain that a bit. Rejection does not mean no. If in my world as a writer or my world that used to be as an actor, you get rejected all the time. and if rejection, the first time you get a rejection, it means no, you can stop, don't go ahead.

1:04:50No, because that rejection, the next person you see will say, oh, I love it. And that is if you constantly realise rejection does not mean absolutely finished over. It doesn't. With Prime Suspect, with everything that I've dealt with, How many times rejection has hit me over and over and over again. But if you don't let it floor you, if you don't let it hurt you, you go on. And that's what life is about. So to me, my biggest lesson has always been rejection does not mean no. We want you to keep going on in the middle of the plant.

1:05:40Thank you.

1:06:18That was more Rosebud with music by Phil Leppard, production by Harriet Jane, and in the chair, me, Giles Brandreth. Thank you for listening.