More Rosebud - Major General Alastair Bruce

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1:18The industry has changed, scandal dominates, and power always comes at a price. Don't miss The Devil Wears Prada 2 only in theaters May 1st. Get tickets now.

1:53Hello, I'm Giles Brandreth, welcoming you to another episode of More Rosebud, the podcast that on a Tuesday I present with my producer and friend, Harriet Jane. Harriet, if people are listening to this in real time, this is Tuesday, the 21st of April, 2026, the centenary of the birth of Queen Elizabeth II, who was the longest reigning sovereign in British history, fondly remembered by many people. Indeed, this week, the King and the Queen and the Royal Family will be attending events to mark this centenary. There's going to be a big memorial to the late Queen put up in London in Green Park. And we are going to be talking about elizabeth ii today ourselves with somebody very special who knew her very well what as we sit here when i say to you a person you know a couple of generations younger than me what does the queen mean to you i i mean i think like a lot of people it's impossible to sort of imagine your life without the queen and um i still if people say the queen think of the queen as I think a lot of people do uh so yes I think she was constant and when she died I suddenly thought gosh she really was important in making this country feel like a country and also adding some sort of level of um mystery class and obviously I know people always talk about her duty you know she was a great example and a role model i think she was i mean absolutely you're right driven by duty sustained by faith and as i like to say kept happy by horses and dogs correct indeed the duke of edinburgh really did say her husband of 70 years duke of edinburgh really did say if it doesn't fart to eat hay she isn't interested was that true i think she seemed very interested in people she did take an interest in people she did i mean i think she made a deliberate effort to take an interest in people.

4:08Though, as we're going to discover from our guest, she was really quite a shy person, given that she spent her whole life in the public eye. I feel I know a great deal about her because I was lucky enough to spend time with her. And I've published, and it's out now in paperback, a biography of the Queen called Elizabeth, an intimate portrait. And it appeared soon after her death. And I'm proud to say it became a number one bestseller because of the fascination in the Queen. But one of the interesting things I think about her, and one of the people who works at Buckingham Palace now said this to me, the advantage of the Queen in some ways is that we didn't know her.

4:54And therefore we could put onto her whatever feelings we had. We didn't know how she viewed things. People always want to know what was the Queen really like. And I think in my book, I show you what she was really like. But in a way, actually, because we didn't know the detail of what her thinking was, well, she could feel for us. Yeah, no, I think that's true. Do you think she should have told us more about what she thought about things no no i think she played it absolutely right she was authentic she was true to herself but there was something about her commitment her duty and her staying power that meant when at the time of covid do you remember she only made one there was one broadcast when she talked about covid the essence of her message was everything is going to be all right yeah and somehow because you were with someone who had been through so much over so many years, you thought, well, maybe it's true.

5:54Everything is. Oh, she could be really reassuring. Right. And reassuring. Yeah. She was a steadying presence. So let me tell you who our special guest is. Yeah. It's somebody that our listeners and viewers may recognize because he's called Alistair Bruce. And if you know the name, it could be because you watch Sky News, where he is their kind of a royal commentator or a public events commentator, because he was in the army. He was a regular soldier years ago, and then he joined the reservists, I think became a very high-ranking reservist. He's now a general. His own story is fascinating, as we're going to discover, because he is gay.

6:38Indeed, he was the highest-ranking gay officer in the British army, and that is part of his own personal story. But people may have seen him on television because he appears talking about ceremonial events. He's also been the historical advisor to major movies and indeed to Downton Abbey. He talks about that, doesn't he? He knows all about that sort of thing. Also, he was the governor of Edinburgh Castle and indeed invited me rather grandly a couple of years ago to go to Edinburgh Castle to attend the fouling of the salute on the present Queen, Queen Camilla's birthday. official firing of the salute.

7:19So I went there and presided rather exciting. Lots of soldiers and cannons going off and 21 gun salute and he let me do it. What, did you fire one of the guns? Well, no, I gave the command for the guns to be fired. Did you? Yes, I did. What did you have to say? I think fire or something like that. Or maybe, I think maybe what happened is the commanding officer came and said permission to fire the salute and I had to say, permission granted. Oh, I can see you doing that, Charles. I'll show you some pictures. They're quite fun. I don't know if you'd have been good in the army, though. I don't see you in...

7:54Well, you say that. I come actually from an army family. Well, yeah, but you're the one that didn't go into it. You're right. My grandfather was a regular soldier. My father served for six years. I have a son and a grandson who both served in the British Army. So we are an army family and I respect and admire people in the army hugely, but you're right. I'm a cowardly custard. which Alistair Bruce clearly isn't because, well, you're going to hear his story. But the reason we're having him today is because the late Queen never gave any interviews. The only time she appeared on television in conversation was with Alistair Bruce when they had a programme some years ago about the Crown Jewels when they looked together at the Crown Jewels because they shared an interest in the Crown Jewels.

8:36He's going to tell us about that. And particularly during the later years he would go to Windsor Castle simply to call on the Queen. to have tea with her. Well, you would, wouldn't you? I would. If I was friends with the Queen, I'd go and call on her. You would? Yeah. But obviously, they got on well, I think partly because he didn't need anything from her. All he was offering was friendship and a mutual interest in things like, you know, medals and crown jewels and military history. And he is a very, as you discovered, because you met him when we were doing the recording, a very charming person, isn't he?

9:12Oh, yeah, very charming. He's delightful. So I think we are going to have today a conversation with somebody who very rarely, if ever, talks about his friendship with the Queen. So this is a bit of a Rosebud exclusive. Yeah. With a very fascinating human being whose own story is worthy of an episode of Rosebud. Have we got some specially royal music? Cue the fanfare. Failing that, cue the music.

9:53Alistair Andrew Bernard Raby Bruce. Have I got the name right? Yes. Born on the 25th of June 1960. Correct. Very good. I've got the right person in the right place. Are you still a major general? Well, I'm not serving, but the lovely thing is when you're given a commission at a specific rank, then that's you. Some people choose not to use it, but I'm incredibly proud to have made it to Major General, which is the highest you can get as a reservist. And I thought I might keep it, really. Well done, Major General. I like it. You're our modern Major General. And the names, Alistair Andrew Bernard Raby Bruce.

10:30The Bruce is because you are a Bruce of Robert the Bruce. Are you descended from Robert the Bruce? Effectively, yes. And the family has sort of gone through some enormous sort of timeline since then. But what I enjoyed when I became governor of Edinburgh Castle is that the Strathclyde University asked if I'd do a swab. And they did some checks and they said, you connect twice directly to Robert the Bruce. So that'll do. Well done. When was Robert the Bruce? Well, he was king from 1306. So it's quite a long distance. But Robert the Bruce had no direct male heirs except for his son. But he had no children.

11:10So I descend, presumably, a number of times through his daughters, principally Marjorie, who married a Stuart. And that's why the Stuart line began. But I do directly descend from Robert the Bruce's brother, Edward. But this is exciting. We've got royalty in the room. No, you haven't got that. We have. We've got the blood. Aspirant royalty. No, we've got royalty. The royal blood is in the room. And what about the other two names there, the first names, Andrew and Bernard? Well, Andrew, I suppose, patron saint of Scotland. Bernard was my grandfather. But the one I'm most proud of is Rabie, because my mother's family descend from Mary Rabie, who was a convict in Australia.

11:53And she stole a horse in Bury in Lancashire and was sentenced to death because she was a tomboy and they thought she was a bloke. And then when she was sentenced, they deloused her and discovered she had more assets than she'd been letting on. And she was translated, as it were, to life in the colonies. And they went over to Botany Bay. And she married someone there called Thomas Raby and built up a business. She's Australia's first businesswoman. And she's on the$20 bill if you go out to Australia. Well, nobody uses money now. But I'm really proud of her. She's on the banknotes of Australia. And Robert the Bruce is on the banknotes of Scotland.

12:34But this is fantastic because we've abandoned Winston Churchill. and Isaac Newton and all the distinguished people from this country but you've still got your family on the back notes. Are you as a person aware of your heritage to the extent that actually it's touched your life that you have been an aspiring person because of having these interesting people among your forebears? I think I've always been interested in history and partly that's because I suppose the family story was quite interesting and I reacted to it positively and find it interesting. I don't know whether it's been the key motivation, but my father always said, you know, you have a task to go and make your mark.

13:14So I had a brother who was going to be a farmer, and I had two elder sisters who were very effective and able. And I knew I needed to try and find something. You have a task to make your mark. My goodness, that's quite a challenge. Now, tell me, we've got to begin at the beginning. What, Alistair, is your very first memory? Well, I think it is watching Winston Churchill's funeral when I was five. And I'd been sat down. I mean, everybody had very small tellies then. And, of course, it was a very profound event for the nation. I knew it had affected my parents, who had lived, particularly my dad, fighting at the end of the Second World War.

13:58and this war leader was seen as more than a politician more than a statesman he was I suppose the embodiment of what won for Britain and there was this amazing event and I loved the music and the the military drill and I feel that that impacted me a great deal and I always wandered around the garden dressed as something either as a bishop or an admiral mostly and I made sure that my abral's uniform was trimmed with as much gold braid and honors as I could give my childish self but it helped with my imagination and I think that as I then commentated because I'd listened to the dark brown Shakespearean voice of the commentator on the BBC and although I don't remember it aged five I'm sure it had an impression and I found myself commentating myself as I went around my play I was much younger than my siblings so I tended to play and make my own fun where were you living where was this we were in hampshire my grandfather was the fifth son of an impoverished scottish earl and was told to go and find a woman with a pile of bricks and he did the earl of elgin uh the earl of elgin was my great grandfather and his fifth son was my grandfather john bruce john bernard bruce and he was the navy he was uh so So the earldom was the great-grandfather.

15:23Yes. And he had nothing. Yeah. And no money either. Well, because the Elgins had run into a spot of bother trying to recover the Parthenon marbles from the bottom of the sea. Oh, this is the Elgin marbles then. Yes. So my three-greats' grandfather, Thomas Bruce, removed the Parthenon architrave and was bringing it back really for his house in Fife. But it sank. the boats carrying most of the items sank just outside Paphos and therefore they had to recover it and his wife who had some money rather gave up on him and you probably know that he then found himself in some difficulty because he had to get back through Paris at a time when Napoleon was quite significant it was all quite difficult it's marvelous no wonder your father said you were tasked to make a mark.

16:16What was your father like? Who were your parents? Tell us a bit about what their characters were like. My father was a mad keen countryman and he had inherited the farm that my grandmother bought my grandfather down in Hampshire and she also bought him a large piece of Scotland in basically the wettest hill that existed in Sutherland. It was lunar landscape but my father took that on and he was a keen sportsman of the countryside variety which I had very little interest in I neither fished nor did I shoot as a child it didn't interest me at all but he was the kindest of men he was very very adroit in everything that he did he was very encouraging and just all I remember is kindness and I think that watching his son wander around dressed as an admiral was a bit of a worry but he he went through his old naval trunks and found me whatever i could fit into or he'd served himself he had he'd been he'd been uh he joined them because he was at school at the beginning of the second world war and then he joins the royal navy he's at dartmouth when it's bombed and then he did three russian convoys one after the other and then he was at d-day on board hms ramillies ah which the late duke of edinburgh also served on as I remember.

17:36Well I think probably at a different time but they were the same age and Prince Philip and my father were very keen polo players and they both played in the naval team in Malta from different at different times. That's how you became involved in later years in the royal family because of your parents being in Malta was that is that how that happened? Yes I was about to introduce mummy and then that'll probably lead you in. Mummy was an admiral's daughter she was one of three daughters and I think that she had had an interesting time when her father had been captain of Dartmouth back to Dartmouth again at the end of the war because everywhere we went as children every naval officer we we spoke to said oh you're Vernon's son are you ah because of course they remembered Vernon my mother uh being Vernon was her name yes it's quite confusing isn't it but because it sounds like a male name exactly she was known as Vernon and I think it was always very confusing when Vernon and Henry arrived to stay with some people because they didn't quite know how to deal with it.

18:36No wonder I'm so confused now. So Mummy again, she was a very strong woman. She was very, very able but she had been quite dyslexic and I think somewhat written off as women in a broad sense were of her generation. but the question you asked was about how our family came into the orbit of the queen and prince philip and it was literally because my grandfather was the admiral in malta commanding destroyers and the king george vi wanted princess elizabeth and her husband who were newly married to get some time together and away from britain and my grandfather provided HMS Magpie, which was one of his ships, for Prince Philip to command, which was a very interesting time for him because, you know, I know from my own experience, unit command or ship command in the Navy is where you literally make your name.

19:34If you are able to command a ship at sea or to command a military unit in the field, you're proving that you're absolutely able. And that's unpack that a bit how many then men or officers or people are you are working with you why is that so important that that unit or that ship what is the scale of it i think because if you're commanding a battalion in the field you are absolutely responsible for the manner in which you interpret the instructions you're given and deliver calculated precise and legal violence against the kings or the queen's enemies in that battlefield and if you take your ship out from port as Prince Philip did as its captain you are responsible for not only the navigation but also the fighting of the ship and the leading of its crew in times of immense challenge you know and I think that it has always struck me that unit command is where people make their name and the reporting system is geared so that it is where people who've joined the armed forces are truly challenged if they wish to go to the higher levels and prince philip used to say my grandfather's reports on him had helped him immensely because you know i think he he cut the mustard as it were he did the job well he was seen to lead brilliantly and he got a report which would have probably propelled him into flag rank love the way you talk this language of course which to outsiders is a flag rank means becoming a commanding admiral oh my gosh which means they just fly their flag in the in the masts of their ship when they're at sea so your parents meet how do they meet do you know the yes i think i think that our two grandfathers sorry my two grandfathers were in the royal navy one was marginally more successful but they were about the same age and so I think in those days Britain being what it was then families knew each other and so I don't think my father was unknown to my mother but I don't think there was any realization in my mother's mind that daddy was going to to take her towards the idea of getting married daddy had lots of girlfriends in fact we kept bumping into them as children but in the nicest possible way as girlfriends were girlfriends in those days but no they got engaged in malta they were married in malta prince philip came the princess elizabeth was back with her father at the time but she had they sent a lovely present which is a clock which i still have and it's got the letter inside it saying um i hope you have a lovely time together my parents did have a lovely time together they they were very happy until they were separated by death and my mother's now gone so how long were they together a lifetime well we certainly they were married in 51 and um gosh my maths is so bad but we went out to malta for their 60th wedding anniversary oh wow 60 years that's very good was it could have been the 50th but i can't golden golden it was definitely 50th it was 50th I do remember the colour.

22:48Describe them together, 50 years together and being happy together is a wonderful achievement. Yes, I mean, I think they had their challenges. My mother at one time was a little bit too keen on the bottle. We had to get through that. But, and I think daddy found that crushing in one sense. But after getting through it, my mother turned to Christian science first. And then, you know, that helped her and guided her. because her uncle, Peter William Paulett, had been captured in Singapore and had kept the fellow prisoners that he could alive through Christian science when they were building the Burma Railway.

23:27And I think they went through so much. I think my mother hugely admired her uncle for what he'd overcome. Is Christian science the belief that you don't need medicine? Correct. That Christ will do your medical work for you? Yeah. She never got in the way of us going to hospital. so I don't know how adherent she was to it and she lived quite a long life herself so yes she and she was always very very healthy she she never complained and although she became a little lame her acumen remained literally until I said goodbye to her just before she died and was the drinking part of that sort of social element of her being no I think she was bored to tears I think she was so able and yet the world that she had been born into gave her very few opportunities she was she was a farmer's wife and although she accepted being a farmer's wife with great happiness and was you know she she did everything I think she would always have loved to have done more and I think she just got bored but she overcame it I I remember being I was at school I was 17 and at school when she hit the really difficult time and anyone who knows alcoholism will know that you can't tell people to stop.

24:40They have to reach a point where they decide it's the right thing to do. And I think we as children have always been a bit fearful of alcohol as a result because it is hereditary alcoholism on the whole. So do you not drink? I'm afraid I do, but I don't drink as much as maybe I would if I hadn't had a mother who drank. You're aware of it? Yeah. And were you as a boy aware that she had problems? Yes, and I was quite ill at school because I was worried about her because my mum and dad rowed a bit. And she was lovely in the morning. Again, people who understand alcoholism will know this. Lovely in the morning, a bit scratchy at lunchtime, and then utterly foul in the evening.

25:18So you had a bit of a breakdown at school? I didn't have a breakdown because actually I became head boy at my school, which was extraordinary. But it was through all this. And I think it was a big issue to carry. But, you know, in life it's good to learn to carry things because everyone's having to carry something. And I think it also armed me to understand that marriage is about sticking together and overcoming things. And I'm very lucky that my parents stayed together. I'm very lucky to be in a marriage that is really strong. And I know it'll need some hits, I expect. But I hope that I learned a lot from my parents through that.

25:58Take you back to being a little boy. Here you are in Hampshire on the farm. Is it a farm like we picture a farm with fields and hay and cattle? Well, it has fields. It has hay. My brother is now the farmer. It's very near Winchester, and my brother has now diversified, and we have a major music festival called Boomtown every year where 72 ,000 people come and gyrate. It's a very different sort of farming from my father's. But I used to go with my father every day to the farm until he told me it was going to be my brother's, and then I never went again. I showed no further interest. So the others, the siblings are all older.

26:39Yes. And how many years is there between them and you? My oldest sibling is eight years older than me, then seven, then five. So it's a five-year gap. What sort of a child are you, and why are you dressing up as a bishop or an admiral? What's your thought about it? Yes, I think I have. I think it was this amazing imagination in me. I loved the grandeur of the story of the nation. And I was interested in the Navy, and I thought that I'd be a very good admiral. I'd met plenty of people dressed as admirals, and I thought that'll be just what I want to do. There are some very sweet photographs of me looking very serious, wearing a lot of gold braid.

27:24And I'm convinced when I reach time to going to my old people's home. If I'm just dressed in an admiral's uniform, covered in gold braid, I'll sit very happily in the corner. I just think it's very smart. It is very smart. Tragically, I was not gifted enough with good eyesight to join the Navy, or I would have. But I would probably have come unstuck because it's a very technical world, the Royal Navy now, and I can't even turn my mobile phone on.

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29:13states. Hi, everyone. It's Paige from Giggly Squad telling you about the 20th Century Studios The Devil Wears Prada 2, only in theaters May 1st. 20 years after the generation-defining classic Meryl Streep, Anne Hathaway, Emily Blunt and Stanley Tucci return to the healed streets of New York and the halls of Runway magazine in its next chapter. The industry has changed, scandal dominates and power always comes at a price. Don't miss The Devil Wears Prada 2 only in theaters May 1st. Get tickets now.

29:47So at home it's happy, you're happy in your head? Hugely, yes. I took over different parts of what was a very lovely garden for being, I don't know, Westminster Abbey or being a parade ground or a ship. And I just wandered around existing in that world. I think it is entirely ironic that I went on, or perhaps inevitable, that I went on and found myself reliving life by being a commentator on television and doing what I did as a child. and I didn't make it to Admiral but I suppose I made it to General and just enjoyed it being in that environment. And how did you get involved and interested in the crown jewels?

30:30Well I think that I was just really interested in the story of how liturgy and ceremony tells us about our past and the crown jewels the regalia of the United Kingdom now but principally of England by history has had its own evolution from the Frankish form of coronation going right back to Byzantium and then to a large extent you can trace some of the rituals back to ancient Egypt and down into Africa so I think it's fascinating from that point of view and I've always studied things like that and I made myself an expert in Byzantine coronation ritual. But what is so bizarre I've seen in your home the miniature crown jewels that you made as a little boy how old were you oh well i started making things out of clay when i was i suppose about seven or eight so seven years of age you're building what i've now seen it looks like a very beautiful collection of the crown jewels people have to go to the town of london to see the real thing but if you're lucky enough to know Alistair you can be shown into his sitting room where there in a glass case is this stuff you made what did your family think of you making replicas of the crown jewels age seven you're the only child in the world I think he was doing this I am aware it is a bit odd now but I think that mummy and daddy were particularly good at just letting me be myself and I suppose you know I wasn't doing anything bad I was not interested in football I couldn't be less interested in going out and kicking anything around but I was just perfectly happy spending hours making out of clay the insignia of the order of the garter and the imperial state crown I could never get the arches to stay up because of course being made out of clay they always collapsed I have asked the most amazing man called Martin who made all the jewels for Downton Abbey to make me an imperial state crown and it's recently arrived it's a perfect copy of the george the sixth george the fifth shape of the imperial state crown when you next come down you'll see it at the end of the corridor it looks pretty nice do you ever put it on would that be i don't uh and i won't let anyone do that i think it would be uh inappropriate it's not what it's for it's there for me to just enjoy looking at and the phrase les majesté i think would apply exactly precisely precisely yeah So for you it's a fascination with history Yes And it's a wonderful hobby It's a passion that sustains you It is but it's not just there It's something that I've managed to turn into a living in a sense Because I knew one day it was likely that it would be a coronation in my lifetime And I wanted to have the ability to explain it and commentate it And also I was given by the last Archbishop of Canterbury The opportunity to play a part in the group of people that helped put it together and I think it was very useful that that group which principally involved clergy people but they had me and you know there were the items of the regalia that perhaps are just objects to most people but I knew the provenance and what they meant and the semiotic meaning behind each of these items because I think you could lay out the regalia in front of anybody who has a position of leadership and those items tell you about responsibilities that you have if you're in charge of people you had opportunities because of knowing her of actually talking about all of this with the late queen Elizabeth the second and I suppose you shared an enthusiasm for it was she interested in the history of it in the way that you were I think the queen lived her life and got on with it and was probably interested where she needed to know but I think she recognized such as she could see that I was absolutely fascinated and obsessed with all of this and that I did occasionally bring her items that I had made to show her I remember I did a painting of myself as a knight of the garter which I showed her as I did it as a child I think at the time I was taking my o-levels and she looked at it and she said well you got the robes right which um so i made a set of garter robes out of some old blue curtains you know i did have a very odd way of entertaining myself when you must imagine that all the other young lads of my age were out playing football or were scrabbling around on rocks i had considering i went into the army very little interest in doing either of those we'll come back to that let's just finish on you and the Queen, because she was allowed to put it on.

35:19I mean, she could tell you genuinely how heavy the crowns were to wear. I mean, were you able to reveal anything to her that she didn't know? And did she reveal anything to you that you didn't know about the crown jewels? Well, I did reveal to her, and she pretended she didn't know, but I had been told by her librarian that her father had worked very closely with the librarian at Windsor at the start of the Second World War and he had literally wrenched the principal jewels out of the imperial state crown and wrapped them up and put them in a bath Oliver tin and hidden them at Windsor. A biscuit tin yeah in order to try and make sure that were the Germans to land and were they to find any elements of the regalia which themselves were hidden underneath Windsor Castle they wouldn't find the principal and amazing stones like the Black Prince's Ruby and the Stuart Sapphire the amazing little tiny sapphire at the top of the cross, which is still worn in the crown by the king when he reads the state opening of Parliament's speech.

36:21And that stone, that little sapphire, had been on the ring finger of Edward the Confessor. And I love the idea that, you know, when he's reading out whatever the government of the day is requiring legislation to be considered by Parliament over, you know, this stone is still there glinting as it has over the centuries since Edward the Confessor and before the conquest. You know, I love all of that. And so telling her that these things have been wrenched out of the crown, and I said, you know, did the king and queen tell you? And she said, they told us nothing. You know, they were children. And the way she describes it on television was very sweet because she just was very honest.

37:03Why would her parents have told her? yeah and what did did she tell you anything you didn't know or did you know it all no i of course there's plenty to know i i was very amused by her description of what it's like to wear a crown and then read a speech and she said you know you can't lean forward or else as she said your neck would break you have to lift the speech up or else it would fall as she said it would fall off and i i just thought the way she described that and you know we talk about first world problems but that was a sovereign problem. And of course, the United Kingdom monarch is the only monarch who still wears a crown.

37:41Oh. Well, they're the only monarch, we are the only monarchy that still has anointing by oil. And the purpose of a crown was to adorn an anointed head. So there's no point the others. They have crowns there when they're inaugurated in Europe, but they don't put them on because they haven't been anointed. And of course, the spiritual side of it all, she will have taken seriously because faith... As did the king, I think. You mean the present king? Yes. I mean, you could see when I was commentating the coronation, anyone watching, the seriousness across his eyes and in the almost pained with history as he was in the process of being crowned and anointed.

38:22I know we couldn't see the anointing, and that was probably a good thing. Going back to you as a boy, you're sent to boarding school because that's what happens. That's what happens. And so this was seven and a half. Aged seven and a half. I was very young. I remember I had my birthday, my seventh birthday, probably my eighth birthday when I was there. And somebody else had a birthday on the same day and had this enormous castle of a cake, you know, had everything. And I was given this tiny little biscuit cake. And the head boy came up to me with a crumb in his hand and said, swap. So that was quite tough.

38:57Put you in your place. Yeah, it was very good for me. Very good for me. Prep school okay? Yeah, it was fine. you know I was hopeless at everything I never managed to keep up I was always at the bottom of the class but nobody realized I was very dyslexic I don't think I was ever thick in the old-fashioned sense but I was very dyslexic and you know most of my contemporaries were storming ahead and heading for some of the great schools of of the country and I was supposed to be going to one of the great schools of the country and it became palpably obvious that I wasn't going to get there. So another school was found for me.

39:34And I was just so happy about that because it was a school that took me on. I had a slight impediment in my speech and found it difficult to talk in public. And my next school completely overcame that. And how did they overcome it? And have you thought about why you had this impediment? I don't think I have thought about why. I think I think I would say that perhaps I was quite shy when I was little. I think because I wasn't interested in all the things everybody else was. And when I went to parties, I was naturally quite shy and kept to myself and was worried about saying anything, I think. But at my second school, I showed an interest.

40:16It was an abbey church down in Dorset, Milton Abbey. And I was very interested in the liturgy and the church side of it. And so the chaplain got me to read the lesson a lot. And when you learn how to breathe and project your voice when you don't have today's equivalent of this microphone, and Milton Abbey had nothing, so you had to project your voice, it teaches you a little bit of a performance, a little bit of breathing skill and projection. And that was terribly useful and it built up my confidence. So is that when you began to feel comfortable with other people? You were clearly comfortable in your head because you'd created this world for yourself but when and your parents were kind and loving to you and they let you do what you want but clearly with other people it was difficult you even couldn't quite speak properly to other people you felt shy you were conscious that you were different from the other boys who were playing rugby and soccer and yeah uh but at this next school you began to feel more at ease with yourself tremendously yeah i think that because everyone at the school I was at Milton Abbey had difficulties they were overcoming some of them were dyspraxic some of them were very autistic we all had been as it were set aside by our uniqueness and the thing the school did was that it enabled people to thrive in their area and I remember the school making a great thing of a display for the silver jubilee of Elizabeth II of my crown jewels in the in the theater all the lighting was set up and i i think that you know when all the first 15 came in with their families and parents and said this is alistair's crown jewels it was a sort of affirmation that not many schools could conjure very good and you were proud quite right yeah you know they were good they weren't badly made and i i love detail and when you were at school was that when you realized that you might be gay and did you have crushes on yes boys or teachers i think that i always assumed it was part of the process and to be perfectly honest at both my schools you know one collided with a realization of sexuality in the most delightful and confusing way and life is all about meeting those people again and being delighted to see that they have 14 children and they're very happily married but i'm not you know i suppose i don't know quite how it went the way it did with me but I think I was always very aware that it was an imperfection in my own concept because of the way I've been brought up and there was a demand that you should be heterosexual when I was young and of course I wasn't and so I developed a very good way of just hiding it I think.

43:01And did it worry you that you were hiding it? Did it make you feel uncomfortable? You just thought this is life? I did. Yes it did but I don't think it made me you know people say well are you angry i know i mean it's the way the world was but you know i did recognize that by choosing the armed forces as a route because i found that i wasn't much good at anything else aiming for the armed forces was in its own way going to be a challenge because of course it was illegal in the armed forces to be homosexual and to be actively homosexual i assume to be well because you had to sign a document when you arrived saying i am not gosh and and if you ever change until about 2000 i mean remarkably recently it didn't change until 2000 not about 2000 but i i still probably and so you signed this lying yes i signed this line no i was a very good liar the armed forces taught me to lie very very well and did you think twice as you signed this you thought did you think down the road how am i going to actually cope with this How am I going to, you know, because you were clearly ambitious, you'd been tasked to make a mark.

44:06I don't think I'd found ambition then. I think I wanted to just make sure that I did something that would fit what was expected. You know, I had to do a job. My father expected me to find something to do. So did my mother. Well, so did life. And I just didn't think I was clever enough to be a banker, and I didn't think I was clever enough to go into industry or anything like that. I couldn't be a farmer because I had a brother. so I was very keen and determined to do whatever it took to get into the armed forces, because I thought I could do well in them. And you could, and you did, obviously.

44:43I mean, you were tough. You were butch. Well, I don't know how tough I was, but I'd tough enough. Well, you went to Sandhurst, didn't you? Yeah. Well, I remember my first 20 minutes in the army. I was driven. It was almost a case of having to apologize, but I was brought up with a nanny, and my nanny's son-in-law, because my parents were in Scotland, drove me to Purbright, which was the guard's depot. And when we got there, there was a man standing outside this Nissan hut made out of corrugated iron, which was not quite what I had in mind, but it was where I was going to be living for the next eight weeks.

45:15And I went up to him and I said, is this the right place? And he said, yes, it was. He checked me off on the list. And I said, where do you want me to go? He said, inside, turn left, second bed on the right. Now, Jacko, who'd driven me there, got my two heavy suitcases out and came over and said to me, it's in there on the left, second on the right, is that correct? And I said, yes, please, Jacko. And in he went and he came back out and said to me, is there anything else? And I looked at the sergeant and said, is there anything else? And the sergeant said, just waved his, you know, nodded no. And I said, well, send my love to mummy and daddy.

45:48He got into the car and drove off. And the sergeant said, go and get your suitcases, which I did. and he pointed at the end of the long road beside where the hut was, a gate miles away, and said, you ought to run down to that gate, go around it, carrying your suitcases, shouting at the top of your voice, I will not get my butler to carry my kit. So that was how I started in the army. That was the start. So I think I knew it was going to be an interesting environment. But that sergeant, ironically, went on to become my platoon sergeant. and unfortunately he was killed on Tumbledore Mountain in the Falklands War.

46:28So I feel he made an enormous influence on my life, literally with that first moment. And you repaid that because you created a little memorial to him, am I right? Well, I made a memorial actually to the soldier who was my orderly. So you served in the Falklands, is the point? Yes, yeah. What rank did you... Just finish... Let's get the Falklands in a moment. Just finish your time at Santos. What happens? Well, I was always being rushed to hospital for overexerting myself. I was hopeless at getting over the... Do you remember those boxes you had to sort of... You had to jump over. Oh, I do. They were called horses.

47:05Horses. Thank you very much, Judy. Yes, the horse. And the horse at Sanchez was on stilts, not like the one at school. It was really high. And they had this... Instead of a springboard, they had a sort of rather like an elastic... elastic bands holding a piece of canvas on a frame. and you and I I remember running forwards and just losing my nerve and my legs went through the elastic bits and I crashed into the thing and slid down you know that's a sort of Alistair moment in the gymnasium and the the corporal horse told me to go back and do it again and he shouted at me look up and I looked up and I jumped and I must have hit that piece of canvas dead center and I shot up in the air and and the horse just disappeared and I went over the horse I went over all the mats and I landed on the wood the other side they were all staggered of course I had to go and was admitted to hospital I was then admitted to hospital again because I tore my stomach muscles on a run I you know I was really toughening myself up and got there you know I achieved it but also were you doing what the son of Oscar Wilde did Oscar Wilde had two sons one the eldest one Siddle because of the scandal associated with his father he joined the army and was determined to be the toughest that you could possibly be to sort of show that he was a man uh and indeed he ended up literally leading his men in the beginning of the first world war into the gunfire and losing his life was an element of that i'm i i know that inside me is something that you weren't ashamed of but you knew wasn't right within the environment and you were going to somehow prove i mean i may have got that wrong i don't think that was in my mind i think i just wanted to survive i don't think I was ever as admirably capable in terms of physical strength as my amazing soldiers.

48:54I think what I was good at was going up hills. I tended to, for some reason, I've got quite strong legs and a bit of a weedy body. I've got a chest like a packet of 10 cigarettes. But I picked up quite a lot of weight and I could always go straight up a hill. And as long as I managed, when I was with my troops, to end with a very, very big hill to climb, I generally got there first and that was my way of you became an officer because of your background that's where i went to become an officer in the modern army do people who might well have been like your sergeant do they now become officers the opportunity for what they might call social movement and change is enormous social movement well social you know you start in a tough neighborhood and you can become a senior officer is much more prevalent now than it was.

49:42Not everybody wants to be an officer. It's a very different kind of soldiering. People who want to soldier and just achieve that great strength, you know, I have enormous respect for. Soldiering as an officer is different. You just are using your mind to interpret the environment you're in and getting the best out of your troops, encouraging them to deliver calculated, precise and legal violence in the best way they can. and making sure we defeat the enemies of the country and protect what we've got because it's worth... Precise and legal violence. It actually describes precisely what it is, precise and legal violence.

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52:30you were a guards officer yes so you joined uh one of the brigade of guards i was a scots guards because of your family heritage that was well yes i mean my my cousin and chief who's still alive at the age of 102 this is the chief of your clan yes uh the earl of elgin as he is today uh andrew bruce my he's my honorary father now he he was very close to my dad and i took him on when daddy died but he was wounded in 1944 with the third battalion scots guards they thought he was dead and he was pulled from his tank by robert runcy who went on to become archbishop of canterbury and you know he was a fellow platoon commander with willie whitelaw you know just give you a sense of the group and his leg which was wounded has never fully healed he still has a broadly open wound looked after three times a week by NHS Scotland and I think that he was a great influence on me he has always been somebody I have wanted to be proud of me and I've just so admired the way he he endured I think that would be what he did he endured for a lifetime and when you think it happened to him uh you know he was born in 1924 and he is wounded in 1944 age 20 and he's now 102 he's the longest surviving person with a significant limb wound that the armed forces has experience of so santos comes to an end you're now a regular officer yes northern ireland straight to northern ireland in fact i took command of 13 platoon i had the most wonderful group of soldiers.

54:13How old are you? I'm then, I can always do it by the year. So I'm 19. So I go to Northern Ireland age 19. Age 19. And you have a platoon. You have young men under you. Maybe some of them are older than you. Most of them were older than me. And they are under you. Yes. Well, the term, you know, we're all part of a group. We're all doing different jobs. And yes, they obey my commands but at the same time you know i used to say this when i went to uh passing off the square parades for young soldiers joining the army now you know that there i was dressed covered in gold braid but you know as a general i am nothing without them they are the army the soldier is the army not the people who command and it's their strength their courage their capacity to fight what's the worst mistake you made as a young officer age 1920 i think that my worst mistake was when i was duty officer and one of our soldiers had been caught by the british transport police in an indecent situation with another man at victoria station and I showed no courage to stand beside him and conjoinantly leave the army because I knew he was going to be thrown out.

55:37And I think we looked at each other and knew that each other were in a similar situation. He was actually married and of course in those days people got married to deal with things but he had a child and a wife. He was my age effectively and I think that I could have been more courageous then. I don't know really. Did you try to lead a celibate life yourself in order not to get into trouble? I mean, you can give me a general, I'm not looking for details, but a general answer to that. So I think I was somewhat curtailed. Is that a reasonable way of describing it? But at the same time, you know, a human is a human.

56:17I just knew that I needed to attend to that site. My mother always said there are three ships in life. there's a friendship, a love ship and a bed ship. And if you're lucky, you have plenty of friendships, maybe plenty of bed ships and hopefully lots of love ships. Sometimes you have two with someone, but if you find all three, check that they feel the same way about you and don't let them go. That was her theory. So I used to have really good friendships that became love ships. And if anything else was required, I just had to find it in as creative and clever a way as I could. And I suppose I worried living in London that I might bump into somebody else who I knew in the army.

57:03But as it happens, fate did not put me in that position. But what is strange is how long this went on for. Because while from 2000, it was no longer illegal to begin in the army, you have been with your husband now for more than 20 years. 25 years. We're into our 26th. Well done on there. Congratulations. But in the early days, correct me if I've got this wrong, I seem to remember you telling me that you were both self-conscious if you were out, not arm in arm, but just walking along the street together, and you saw somebody from the army days, that you would automatically slip a farm. Yes. In Winchester, for instance, we'd have an arrangement that if I bumped into someone who I knew from the army and said, oh, hello, he'd just keep walking as though he was not connected to me at all and we'd meet in the next in the next shop but you know I think that it took me quite a long time to to come to terms with the fact that it was all fine but at the same time I think that you know legislation can change an opinion but I'm very well aware that there'll be people listening to this who perhaps still wish that only heterosexual people operated in the army You know, there are people out there who feel that, and I understand that that is a view that still exists.

58:22And I meet people who have strong views, and I wish them well because we're free to think what we like. What I do sense, particularly because I work in the arts a lot, is that the army accepted me. Indeed, sometimes thought that I should be more me than I wanted to be. but at the same time I do think it was significant when I became a general that as far as I am aware I was the first general who had a husband and then when I was appointed to be governor of Edinburgh Castle Stephen was required or chose to help me very much in the important role as a governor of welcoming people and being therefore very much evident as a face of the armed forces in Scotland and he supported me through that.

59:10I don't think really many people battered and I did but Scotland's very good about stuff like that. Going back to your army days, Northern Ireland and then the Falklands? Yes, the Falklands came later. There was plenty of time on royal duties in London which as you can imagine I loved. Lots of parading up and down from Chelsea barracks before the bus bomb went off and slightly altered that. And marching up to Buckingham Palace, St James's Palace and going to the Tower of London. I loved all of that. But then out of the blue, Argentina invades the Falklands. I thought they'd come a long way because I assumed the Falklands were somewhere near Scotland.

59:47Like the pharaohs. Yes, exactly. And the 2nd Battalion of Scots Guards was called up as part of the 5th Infantry Brigade and we were told to get ourselves ready on board QE2, which was a big cruise ship which had been requisitioned, and to go down to the South Atlantic. Gosh. and alarming? No, I was talking about this to someone, actually with the cab driver this morning. He's talking about Iran and the situation we're in. And I said, are you frightened? And I said, look, fear is very different when you're 65 to the fear you face when you're 19, 20, or as I was, 21 in the Falklands. I think when you're 21, you have a different kind of fear, which is mixed with a desire to get stuck in and play your part and you know you're obviously worried whether you'll survive but it's very odd younger people don't feel a vulnerability of of dying in the same way as i'm afraid you and i do but you lost close people who is the person you mentioned well my orderly what does an orderly okay gosh it's terribly embarrassing but as a young guards officer you were allocated from your platoon one soldier who would look after you and it was partly because all the buttons were made of brass and the getting an officer ready for parade was was a job that would have taken most of my time and i wouldn't have been able to lead so they they provided what in old-fashioned money is a batman but we called them an orderly and jim reynolds was my orderly jim reynolds jim reynolds and i got to know him very well and he was he was effectively an orphan in that both his parents had succumbed to terrible drug addiction and he'd been taken away and put into a home in Bridge of Weir along with his younger sister and so I got to know him because you know you talk he's in my room a lot he very sweetly made sure everything was ready for me and so you just and I'm a chatter like you and he told me all about his life he was pursuing a huge number of young women in London and I was always very impressed by that and then when we deployed to the Falklands he was extremely brave and won the distinguished conduct medal he had in the in the description of why he was given the medal it says how he dealt with a sniper in a rock area he went and dealt with that himself and then he went to the aid of a wounded soldier who'd been shot by another sniper and he was shot in the top of his arm and it broke his arm but he turned around and pulled the chap out of cover, still being shot at, behind a rock.

1:02:30He then stuffed his hand, I don't know how he did it, down into his trousers and did up the belt around it. So imagine the pain, he's got a shattered arm, shattered bone. And then he organised the stretcher and as they were going down the hill the Argentinians opened up on the stretcher parties. And although he didn't die immediately, he died quite soon after. and the last thing he asked about and I you know I get very moved by this was you know was the person in the stretcher all right and of course the person in the stretcher was all right but uh he and the other lad David Malcolmson who he was killed with are buried side by side in Nadja Hill Cemetery just outside Irvine in Scotland and I go there occasionally and it interests me that Robert Bruce camped there you know I love that link to history and you know Jim Reynolds knew I loved my history and I used to take him on some amazing trips and I remember taking his sister who I got to know to the Queen as she then was Elizabeth II to receive his Distinguished Conduct Medal which nobody really knows about now but it was literally a shaving below a Victoria Cross and I and I don't know why he didn't get the Victoria Cross because he was very brave and did you create a little memorial to him yes i built a can to him what is a can so the scots used to build cairns which are piles of stone and when a clan was going into battle every soldier would pick up a stone and put it in a pile and at the end of the battle they'd return and lift a stone away and the stones that were left represented those who had died but if you walk around the highlands you'll find a lot of cans and they're not necessarily representing anything like that but I built it was a very cathartic thing to do after battle to go up to Scotland on my own and I dug a huge huge hole in the ground sort of six foot by six foot by four foot deep filled it with rock and gravel and cement and then built up it's about six and a half foot tall and I got a stone flown from where he had fallen all the way back from the Falklands and that sits on the top and i'm delighted that the regimental association up in the highlands has taken it on and they look after it you mentioned taking his sister to collect his medal uh from queen elizabeth ii and you got to know her because of your grandparents and being contemporary of prince edward who is now the duke of edinburgh is that right yes yes and i'm his extra inquiry and what does that what does that i know well i was interested in in helping him in his work particularly when he started royal duties.

1:05:05This is because you were literally at the same age, are you? No, he's a bit younger than me. He's a bit younger than me. But I think that the royal family have a way of connecting with people and then staying in touch. I think it probably is a safe world. And I suppose that the Queen and Prince Philip knew my parents from 1951 in Malta. My mother and Princess Elizabeth loved horses. and they spent a lot of their time worrying about the polo ponies I imagine and my father played polo and so did Prince Philip so you know they were a little bit younger than them both but you know I think that my parents were mutually interested in the things that Princess Elizabeth and Prince Philip were and my mother's father lived two doors down from Guadalamanca which is where Lord McBatton had his house where Princess Elizabeth and Prince Philip lived so they they spent a really important part of the queen's life there together because it was the last time she was the only time she was a naval wife and she was away from britain and within a year she was queen so the queen always used to refer to it as being a very special part of her life and she'd madly enjoyed it what's your so you you knew you know um prince edward duke of edinburgh and i I think, am I right, you're maybe godfather to one of his children?

1:06:31I'm godfather to his son. Very good. And you became friendly with the Queen. Give me your sweetest recollection of spending time with the late Queen. I think it was her interest. I think she recognised that I was interested in things about her world that she perhaps didn't know much about. I remember coming down and being terribly amused. I'd been staying with her and looking at some old books in the library. And I'd found a letter to Elizabeth I which started, or the salutation was Dread Sovereign. And I called her Dread Sovereign and she told me to shut up. But I think she just enjoyed that.

1:07:12And I remember she loved having photographs taken. And I've got a lot of photographs of her when we were on picnics and things like that. and I remember we were all tidying up after she'd given a picnic in the log cabin up in Balmoral and I was saying can I take a photograph oh yes she said shall I be doing some cleaning and there's a sort of lovely picture of her with her j-cloths working away so they're very special pictures and I think nobody would believe them if they saw them and once a year I always found myself with her when she was doing the final spring clean at the end of her stay and I have an amazing picture of her she was cleaning inside one part of the thing and she just waved with the brush through the window it's a picture that again nobody would believe but I think I think that it was a privilege to be with someone who had such affection for my parents who thereby recognized that I was a pretty good friend to her son.

1:08:13And I think a mother likes to see, particularly her youngest child, with somebody who she thinks will be all right. And I sense that that's how I managed to get on with her reasonably well. Also, you were friendly, and yet you were not obtrusive. I mean, I know you visited her drawing when she was quite old, because she was through 96, and inevitably in her 90s she must have got older and more frail and you would go to Windsor to have tea but if she wasn't up to it you'd just go away again. Am I got that right? Yes, you know, towards the end of her life I think it was very important to... I had time, you see.

1:08:54I've always been lucky I've had time because the contract I have, if anything big happens I have to go and work but I've very often got time to spare and I sensed that I was not unwelcome. So occasionally I went and the trouble is I never stopped talking. And Giles, you'll recognize that as both a foible, a failing and a strength. And I suppose that, you know, it was acceptable that I was part of that stage of her life. Do you ever get anything wrong, do you think? Do you ever feel, oh, I wish I hadn't done that or hadn't said that? Yes, but I think that the only way to get it right is not to dwell on it.

1:09:35Just keep going. I think that you can I applied with the late queen the same that I always applied to people who are older than me I think if you let people know that you hold who they are with great respect it's amazing how much you can tease them and have a good chat and I think that rightly she knew she was entirely safe I'm very proud of the fact that she kept a lot of these albums and I gave her hundreds of pictures which literally hundreds of pictures yes from all sorts things but this i she always let me have a look through her albums and there was some there's one occasion i can't remember what it was she came out of windsor with prince philip dressed in dark red on some anniversary i can't remember what it was and everybody'd gather there were crowds there and i was on the balcony of ye olde heart and garter hotel looking down on it and in her photographs i love the fact it was looking at her below and she scribbled in biro an arrow to me on the on the balcony chatting away for sky and said alistair on sky which i thought was rather sweet very sweet and shows she was aware of what was going on in your life 100 years since the queen uh was born royal family not in the most comfortable position though you and i are great admirers of the king and queen uh do you ever reflect on how she would have, I'm sure you'll ask this regularly on Sky when you're doing your stuff, how she would have coped with all the recent events?

1:11:10I don't know. I think what was a great advantage for the kingdom at that time is that she carried this enormous mantle of respect and almost anything could happen. And because people, whether they were staunch Republicans or just disinterested or whatever. They knew that while she held the deep rudder of the ship in the sea that they would give her their very best. Now the king has adopted much of that, but it's a different time. And in that it is a less deferential time, I think it's more difficult for the king than it was for Elizabeth II. second but you know they're stuck in this awful catch-22 situation that the issue which is in itself both alarming dramatic and the allegations are horrific is also connected to someone who is a blood relative and has been part of a family and is part of a family and I think that that presents a unique challenge and I think that the king has shown eminent courage much like his grandfather and his mother that when push comes to shove, when Edward VIII abdicated, George VI, who had been a slightly shy, quiet younger brother to this energetic, popular elder brother who is now abdicating, George VI showed immense courage and determination to cut away his elder brother.

1:12:47and I think that this fraternal determination, I mean, at least we're not living in the times of Edward IV, and we're not throwing people into barrels of marmsy wine, but the history of monarchy has seen violent moments between brothers, and we see lots of challenges between siblings, and in the next generation for the Prince of Wales with his brother, the Duke of Sussex, I mean, it is just sad when families don't get on. I'd look again at my own family and I think how lucky we were to develop without having to deliver for the nation a fairy tale that it is almost impossible to provide. But such as she lived, I think Elizabeth II was almost blemishless in her delivery of that fairy tale and making it a stone-clad, metal-lined fairy tale to get the country through all the challenges it faced.

1:13:44You know, we're now about to face another massive challenge to the price of oil, and it will have social effect, and it will bring to bear upon the leadership of the king and queen. Do you miss the visits to Windsor? I mean, did she become like a sort of mother or grandmother figure to you in the sense of, oh, I'm looking forward to that? I mean, now? Oh, I absolutely loved it. I think that it was extraordinary. It was a privilege. it was it was just something that happened I don't know quite how it happened but I put it all down to 1951 and my parents yes I miss it but you know the chapter has ended the page has turned the king and queen are now our sovereign and consort and god save the king you know it moves on of your remarkable life what is the highlight professionally what's been the the most I mean you've done so many things.

1:14:40You've been historical advisor on television programs like Downton Abbey. Were you involved in The Crown? No, I thought that was a conflict of interest. Good, I'm glad to hear that. But a great friend of mine I managed to get from the royal household to go and do it. Oh, to be the advisor. And he had a lovely time and I think he did very well. Good. And your professional highlight. Now you are 65. Yes, you must be. I'm 65, yeah. Rising 66. I think I've been really lucky because there have been, can I do more than one? Yeah, of course. I think militarily the privilege of handing over Edinburgh Castle to King Charles III, having handed the same key to Elizabeth II on the 200th anniversary of the key's creation in 1822 for George IV, to present it to her in 2022, one of the last things she did in Scotland, and then to present that key constitutionally, which is an issue in Scotland to the new king.

1:15:41That was a spectacular privilege for this subject. Then I think the challenge of doing the coronation on television, but maybe even better than that, was Diana, Princess of Wales' funeral, because I'd known her very well. So it was a very complicated time. How did you know her? She was the daughter of Dad's great mate at school. I'll spend some. Yeah. he was Altrep lots of photographs of daddy and Johnny Altrep when they were boys at school and daddy went to stay at Altrep and Johnny's father who was then the Earl he was a little bit eccentric and he had shotguns propped up at all the windows so that if the Americans who were training at Altrep ever appeared he would fire out of the window at them of course it wouldn't reach them but the American soldiers used to love running past to see if they get shot at but daddy went to stay and was sent away and back to school along with johnny because they thought it was very funny to put some enos salts in old lord spencer's potty and of course he relieved himself in the middle of the night and it's it's like alka-selt said in his chamber pot in his chamber pot yeah and it just all went everywhere so i think that you know the games these addisters play so i i knew her because of that and her sisters knew my sisters so so but my point is that did you like her did you yes hugely she was fun she was terribly funny she was a great tease i think that what was what was imperative is that sky news had a plan to cover it by putting reporters all the way along the funeral route and i persuaded i persuaded my boss to to let me take the program from the beginning and and let me take the whole thing and John Riley did he was the producer of the day and it worked he was always going to pull away from me if he felt it wasn't going to work but I said to him because I was advised by Tom Fleming who taught me who was a commentator of the BBC at the time of the coronation he taught me you know the art of good commentary is silence and I felt that so many people were coming to that funeral with either anger sadness fury or whatever that they they needed a lot of silence not a lot of people telling them what they were thinking at that time and I think it worked really well I was very proud of that because it went to nations all over the world because Sky had the satellite capability which then the BBC didn't so that was my biggest audience.

1:18:17And how did you guard against becoming too emotionally engaged yourself? I think that I sometimes do get emotionally engaged I think I see it as business I remember during Elizabeth the second's funeral from the moment she died I went live on air within minutes from a cruise ship where I was and I held it together until until she was being conveyed into St George's Chapel and the camera angle took the coffin of Elizabeth the second straight past Stephen my husband and I had to come off air I was really moved by that he was on the front row and I subsequently learned that a place had been kept for him on her instruction and I was you know that's a big deal when you think you go through life worrying about how people see you you get married and she she knew him and I just saw that as as kind of gesture as you could face and I didn't know that until I saw it and then I had to pull I came off air you know how these things work pull yourself together that the producer was very worried about it and I said no I'll be fine put the earphones back on she was taken in up the steps and into the into the choir and i was back on so it's fine but what a lovely thing to have done oh i was overwhelmed to have thought of that i was overwhelmed your husband oh now i'm becoming emotionally engaged we've reached the end of the road so let me ask you from your long and interesting life particularly from your younger days a moment of joy well undoubtedly the moment that Stephen and I got married in the pouring rain it had been the most beautiful day in Edinburgh and we just knew you can always tell in Scotland that the clouds are coming I could never have imagined I would get married in my younger years I could never have imagined I would meet somebody like Stephen he and I both wanted to get married in church it's not achievable in England that's a matter for the church but the Episcopal Church of Scotland and permitted it and I went to see the Bishop of Edinburgh.

1:20:24I was after all the governor of Edinburgh Castle and asked him if he'd marry us and he said we don't marry same-sex people. So I was a bit surprised. He said we marry people and he led the service and it was during Covid there were 24 of us there and everyone was wearing masks but nothing was going to break the breath of hope that came out of us both. And, you know, I'm so happy and I'm so proud of him. And it is literally, you know, I found my three ships. I found my friend, I found the person I love, and I don't want to be with anybody else. We ought to end there, but I always ask for a moment of sadness.

1:21:08I think the moment of sadness is that, you know, I wasn't more able in a time of battle to be there for my troops in a more effective way and bring them all home. And what have you learnt? What have you learnt in this curious journey you've been on, unlike any journey of any of the people that we've spoken to? We've had 150 or more interviews now. What has life taught you? Well, I think it was a saying from my mother which sounds incredibly negative. but she always said however negative it sounds once you accept it life becomes easier and she said whatever happens in life always remember people can be very disappointing and if you accept that people can be very disappointing your life is going to be much easier I think you're brilliant thank you very much Major General Alistair Bruce you're brilliant thank you John

1:22:11I thought that was fascinating and rather touching Yes, it was. And we will not see the like of Elizabeth II again, I wouldn't have thought. The length of her reign, longer even than the reign of Queen Victoria. Why is it always the women that do so well, Giles? Well, they stand out from the crowd because they are women. We remember the great women, Elizabeth I, Queen Victoria. Well, no, but they are the greats. I mean, they're the longest reigning. It's not just because you don't just remember them because they're women. They were the best. They were the best. I'm not going to argue. They were the best.

1:22:43They were. I mean, what is amazing... Indisputably, I wonder why. I'll let you go on wondering. What is extraordinary to me is you remember Elizabeth I and her speech at Tilbury, though I have the body of a weak and feeble woman. Yeah, I have the heart and mind. Was it heart and stomach of a king? Yes, that's it. And a king and England do. What's intriguing to me is that those were words that were spoken hundreds of years ago, and yet they still resonate. Anyway, enough of that nonsense, except to say if you want a serious study of the Queen. My book by me, Giles Brandreth, compelling and fascinating according to the Daily Mail, wonderfully entertaining according to the Financial Times.

1:23:22Anyway, it's Elizabeth, an intimate portrait. It's a very long book. It's only£12.99. It's out now in paperback and I recommend it. I've given you several of my books. I've read them all, Giles. You haven't read one of them. I just don't have time. I'm always editing or asleep. You say that to me but last week when you were away for a few days we had a text exchange. which I told you what I was reading, which is fascinating. I'm reading a biography of Jan Morris, which I'm finding very enjoyable and interesting. And I then said, what are you reading? And you sent me a list of three books. Yeah, but I read about two pages of each of them.

1:23:58That you were reading concurrently. So I know that you read books. I have given, listeners, I have given Harriet Jane at least three of my books, including my autobiography, Odd Boy Out. I did read some of that, actually. Can I tell you, you've got to read a book from beginning to end. Like, say, oh, I saw some of that movie. It's like seeing life through reels on Instagram. I know. Also, I will say this. I often give people one of my books as a present, as a keepsake. Not to read, but just to have. Oh, that's nice. Well, I have got them. And I will read them. I think I'm going to give you this book all the same.

1:24:35Oh. Because I can date it on the centenary of Elizabeth. you're going to have a copy of this book by me anyway that's it from me i'm giles brandreth and my colleague friend and non-reader uh harriet jane thank you for being with us join us again on friday for another rosebud which also will have a royal connection oh yeah quite intriguing and it will be a woman on friday and then who knows if you belong to the Rosebud family, you'll join us on Sunday as well. If you'd like to join the Rosebud family, by the way, all you have to do is go to patreon.com forward slash rosebud and the details are all there.

1:25:19But every Tuesday, every Friday, there's more Rosebud and there's Rosebud all over the world. Thank you for joining us on this special centenary day. Cue the music.

1:25:39Thank you.

1:26:14That was more Rosebud with music by Phil Leppard, production by Harriet Jane, and in the chair, me, Charles Brandreth. Thank you for listening. Hi, it's Paige from Giggly Squad, and this episode is sponsored by Experian Boost. Summer glow-up? Check. Credit glow-up? Even better. Boost your credit scores instantly by getting credit for bills you're already paying. Your phone, utilities, rent, and insurance. I wish dating kind of worked like that. Connect your bank account, add those on-time payments to your Experian credit file, and your FICO score updates right away. You could instantly raise your FICO score by an average of 14 points with Experian Boost.

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