More Rosebud Poetry Special: Roger McGough

0:19Welcome to more Rosebud. It's Rosebud, but it's a bit different and there's more of us. there's me and there's harriet how are you harriet i'm fine thanks we've got an exciting week because we're meeting again tomorrow because tomorrow we're going to holland park opera yes because our friend tama matheson wonderful australian actor who came and did an extraordinary rosebud as beethoven and a lot of people are quite cynical come on now come to get some real guests and they listened and they thought well this is uncanny it is a real guest it's somebody channeling Beethoven so effectively, you feel you're with Beethoven.

0:58And he's going to give us, I think, later in the year, Lord Byrne, George Byrne, the great poet. I want to talk to you about poets in a moment. But before that, why are we seeing Tama tomorrow? Because he's doing his show, which is called I Shall Hear in Heaven. And it's a show about Beethoven in which he is Beethoven and he's telling the story of Beethoven's life. And I think there are other actors in it and there are musicians in it. And I don't know if there are seats left. A choir is there? Yeah. Oh, my. I hope the weather's going to be okay. Is it out of doors? Oh, is it outside? I think it's a bit sort of outside-y.

1:31Oh, I think that'll be good. It's atmospheric. Oh, I like things. I'm going to Brigadoon next week at the Regent's Park Theatre. Oh, and that's outside. Yes. You know, when the Regent's Park Theatre was opened, Sir John Gielgud came to assist with the opening, and they brought bits of, you know, bits of grass, cuttings of grass from Stratford-upon-Avon to lay on the turf. so Shakespeare's birthplace was represented by these bits of grass brought all the way from Stratford oh how lovely and Sir John said inadvertently in his opening remarks I'm so delighted that all the sods here have come from Stratford thank you for that one laughter anyway that's tomorrow night today yeah so if you want to get tickets you may still be able to yeah we'll be there and both Harriet and I will be there and we love meeting Rosebud listeners We've met quite a few now, haven't we?

2:23We have. And we're going to be doing more as we have more live events. Do you know what Leon, my husband, calls my fans? I haven't got that many fans, but do you know what he calls them? You've got a lot of fans, Harriet. He calls them the Janiacs. Oh. It's a good name, isn't it? Because your surname is Harriet. Yes, to differentiate you from the Jane Austen fans, we're called Jainites. Ah, yes, so the Janiacs. The Janiacs. What are your fans called? Oh, I know. Bewildered. I don't know. But it's nice having fans, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. A fan did come up to me the other day in the street and said, in my will, I'm going to be leaving you my complete collection of, I was getting quite excited, Billy Bunter annuals.

3:07Oh, that's nice. From Between the Wars. Yeah, you'd love that. I would quite like that. I was telling this story to the great Martin Jarvis, wonderful actor, a friend of mine, at the weekend. and he was telling me how he'd been in a radio play many years ago with a distinguished actress called Marjorie Westbury, who was famous simply for being a radio actress, but very, very well known and much loved. And to celebrate 50 years of being on the radio, she was invited to appear in a play of her own choosing and she chose N.C. Hunter's Waters of the Moon, in which Martin Jarvis, the very young man, appeared.

3:47and I was then telling him about the fan who offered to, said he was going to leave me these Billy Bunter annuals in his will and he said, well, Marjorie Westbury, famously, somebody who had not met her, a fan, left her a cottage in their will. No. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. So, Rosebud fans, feel free to raise your game. If you are a jeniac, Harriet will be perfectly happy to accept, doesn't need to be a cottage, a flat would do. Yeah. Oh, but a little country cottage with the roses around the door and the little lattice windows. I'd love that. You would love that. That's true. But that's a lot of upkeep, actually.

4:27Do you have, I mentioned Lord Byron, George Byron. I think there's an anniversary of his happening this year, actually. Yeah. He's not a poet I read very much. If you ask me who my favourite poets are, I would go among the ancients after Shakespeare. I would go to the metaphysical poets. people like Andrew Marvell, that's how you say it, those sorts of people. I did like Milton. Who are those, of the ancient poets, I'm not talking about contemporary poets at the moment, who are the poets that you remember liking at school? Well, I like Milton as well, but I like Tennyson. Oh, it's not anyone for Tennyson.

5:07You are keen on Tennyson, really? What Tennyson, is he coming to the Garden Maud? Yes, I love coming to the Garden Maud, and I love the Lady of Shalott. yes yeah i and i love i read all about his life on the isle of white you know he had he had this kind of coterie of people like julia margaret cameron the victorian photographer who's a fascinating character too i read this brilliant novel a kind of comic novel about this little um society on the isle of white and they all hung about together by um someone called lynn truss Not Liz Truss. Lynn Truss. I know Lynn Truss as a person. Who wrote Eats, Shoots and Leaves.

5:48Marvellous person. The brilliant book about grammar. I shall read this because I loved, you kindly lent me the book about H.G. Wells, which is again a novel. A comic novel. By David Lodge. The same sort of idea. This is a brilliant novel about, but it's really funny. Well, if you go to the Art of Wight, you must go, I think it's called Tennyson Mount. Yes. And there's a famous statue of Alfred Lord Tennyson there done by the artist G.F. Watts. Oh, yeah. Have you visited his studio ever? Somewhere near London. No, I'm muddling him up with George Layton House. Yes, you are. It's a similar kind of vintage.

6:24G.F. Watts, notorious for marrying Ellen Terry. Oh, not Lizzie Siddle. When she was about 15. Yes. Didn't quite work out. Anyway. And we really digress because we're meant to be talking about poetry. We are talking about poetry. We are, we are, we are. Tell us. Yeah. You're reminding us of The Lady of Chalot, which was a school favourite. Coming to the Garden Maud, which was made into a famous song. But actually, it's rather a touching, sentimental poem, isn't it? Yeah. And a great poet. All right, Tennyson. Now, contemporary poets. There's a reason for this. And it's to do with our special guest.

6:59We've had a few poets, living poets on the show. Pam Ayres. Oh, brilliant. I often say to people, they say, what should I start with on Rosebud? I say Pam Ayres is not a bad one to start with. A, it's the beginning of the alphabet, but also she evokes her childhood and that world that she lived in, that kind of rural, working-class world, so brilliantly, doesn't she? Yeah, it's a brilliant episode. And Simon Armitage, the poet laureate, we've had him. Ben Okri, Sir Ben Okri, brilliant poet. So we've had a few. Giles Brandreth. I don't think I count as a poet. i'm a versifier oh that's a good distinction and indeed our guest today is somebody i first met because we i suppose the 1980s we did an anthology of short poems together we may talk about it in our conversation he is the man who has written so many poems i'm just opening literally at random a poem by him called recycling i care about the environment and try to do what is right so I cycle to work every morning and recycle home every night.

8:09Oh, that's brilliant. He is brilliant. You haven't actually said his name yet. He is brilliant. Well, people I hope can guess who he is. This particular anthology is called It Never Rains. But it really is fantastic. Skywriting. Clouds are the earth's handwriting. I open the sky and don't like what I'm reading. You get it? It's great. It's clever, isn't it? It's Roger McGough. Yeah. Now, when you were a schoolgirl, did you read Roger McGough? I mean, when did you discover Roger McGough? I think I did at primary school. And he's on Radio 4, isn't he? He's still on Radio 4. I think he's presented Poetry, Please, for about 30 years.

8:49And he has the distinction. He and two other poets, Penguin published their anthology, their collection of poems, back, oh, maybe the 1960s, the Liverpool Poets. it is still the best-selling collection of poetry published since the war amazing a book of poems that sold more than a million copies so he's quite special he's an unusual person it's roger mcgough so that's going to be our guest today and then we're back with the diodists next week that's how tuesday work yeah and i'm just thinking giles you asked me who my favorite contemporary poet is and actually it's a rosebud listener come on yeah because they've emailed in today Is this somebody who is a Jane?

9:30A Janeyak. I don't know, but I'm a fan of his. And he's called Vince Patton. Vince Patton. Yes. So I'm a Pattonite. Very good. And this, amazingly enough, this email was sent to us yesterday. So coincidentally, just as we were preparing to do this intro to Roger McGough, the poet, Vince Patton sends us a poem about Rosebud, which I think everyone will agree is really good. Hello Giles and Harriet. I heard Giles say he cannot do two things at once, including listening to Rosebud. Fortunately, I'm a multitasker at heart, so with apologies to Dr. Seuss, I offer this. I like my Rosebud in my ear. I like it when my car's in gear.

10:17I like it as I walk the dog. I like it strolling in the fog. rosebud's fine when doing chores i like it when i'm mopping floors in the yard and trimming trees or in the sunroom sipping teas your podcast joins me twice a week rosebud makes me feel so chic thank you vince for that brilliant well i think vince you're going to enjoy this episode it's more rosebud with roger mcgough cue the music

11:00Roger Joseph McGough, that's the name in full. Cesar. Born on the 9th of November, 1937. Is that right? It's fine, pretty well. I've got the right man in the right place on the right day. I'm going to ask him the right question, which is this. What, Roger McGough, is your very first memory? ah my first memory would be waking up in the uterus in the fallopian tube just before i was about to be born and thinking that was the end of it i'd had nine months of pure joy and then suddenly it was all going to end and out i came um that may not be true charles i just thought air came into my head but I think the first memory I have would be my father lifting me onto his shoulders in the middle of the night I could hear air raid sirens I could see over the roof of the houses in front of me like big silver elephants they were barrage balloons in fact floating in the sky and and sort of searchlights and my father take my shoulder and walk me down the back entry behind the house to the shelter at the bottom of the road where all the street used to go, and bunk beds, I remember, in there.

12:21So there's a poem about your very first memory. Yeah, this is it. Yes, just about that. And it's called My Little Eye. The cord of my new dressing gown he helps me tie. But onto my father's shoulder held high. The world at night with my little eye I spy. The moon close enough to touch I try. silver painted elephants have learned to fly giants fence with searchlights in the sky too soon into the magic shelter he and i air raids are so much fun i wonder why in the bunk below a big boy starts to cry lovely so this early days of the war 1940 yes yes where is this and who is your father North, Litherland and Seaforth.

13:12Where is Seaforth? It's, if you centre Liverpool, then you move north, and you become into Bootle, Litherland, Seaforth, and down by the docks, and that's when my father worked on the docks. That's why he didn't go to war, and he was a fireman and a policeman during the war. And what did he do on the docks? People often say, my dad worked on the docks. What does that mean? Well, it was interesting in a way, because he was Catholic, by an Irish Catholic, so they had sort of jobs to do with, I think, going down the hold and bringing up the cargo. You had to be a Protestant, if you're a Protestant, to be able to drive.

13:49Forgive me. Catholics and... Yeah, I didn't know this. This is in Liverpool in the 1930s. Yes, yeah. The Protestants did the driving, and the Catholics did the heavy work of... Yeah, apparently. Yeah, seemingly. But it was just the way things were. And my dad became a foreman in later life. But he was a very hard-working guy and died quite young, died aged 53, as did so many of his friends. But again, my early memories are to do with that, it's to do with sirens, flashlights in the sky, and a very strange memory too about an hour. If I close my eyes, Giles, and see myself three foot high, little toddler, running along, I see this red ball bouncing in front of me and I'm chasing it across the sand and I can feel the sand and see the little dots in the sand.

14:42And then, end of memory. And it goes back to a time when I was about four and my sister and I were taken by my aunties. My mum was one of 13 in the family. Lots of aunties, lots of uncles. All the uncles almost went off to fight. So full of Gabby aunties. Great stuff. But they would have been teenagers then. I remember some of my aunties took us down to Seaforth, to the sands for a picnic on the beach. And I do remember Barbed Wire. I do remember pillboxes over the Mersey. That was the scene. That was life. And what happened was I climbed through the Barbed Wire and ran across a minefield. My auntie ran across, Auntie Kath, ran across the mine in between the mine picked me up run me back saved me now i saw her some years ago i said remember i was crazy that time wasn't it when did you actually run across a minefield to save me she said yeah you did of course i did i said wow because i remember the red rubber ball i was chasing she's red rubber no no no no you're chasing the dog don't remember with this big dog and you're following it and then suddenly it stood on it, it hit her, and it blew up in front of you.

16:03You don't remember that? I said, I don't remember that. This ball. She said, no, no, no. It wasn't a ball, Roger. It was our pet dog, Goldie. So Goldie the dog ran through the barbed wire. And I chased after him. I chased after the dog. Oh my goodness. And the beach was, there were mines there. In case the Germans landed. Yeah, minefields, yeah. To protect the barbed wire. around it. And the dog ran was it, there was an explosion. It triggered a mine. You thought you were following, well your recollection is you were chasing a ball. I can't see the dog. But you were actually chasing the dog. Yeah, no recollection.

16:37And the red is the explosion one assumes. Yeah, I know. And she then brave sister. Well no, auntie. She was the sister of your mum. Yeah, she was a teenager. Yeah, it's funny how the brain protects us I suppose. Oh God. Tell us about your mum. 13 children where is she in the begging order? She was one of the eldest I think maybe an eldest daughter auntie mum yeah yes all my aunties very funny they all taught me how to how to dance how to smoke how to drink how to swear all those things yes I was always a good little jiver but it was my auntie and my grandmother on the other side who were very influential in bringing me up and looking after me and I remember saying things like Roger oh he's very he's very nervous isn't he he's very nervous ah Roger he's very nervous and possibly he was no wonder having seen dogs blowing up and things but what was interesting Charles about growing up during the war so we lived in a small terrace house born in 1937 the blitz started in the 40s 42 but I was always brought up to think how lucky I was you're very lucky Roger very lucky you know you're very lucky Roger to have a mum and dad you know in this day and age Lucky to have a nice sister, lucky to be a Catholic, could be in a Protestant, concentrates a hell of them.

17:59Lucky to be born in Liverpool, could be in Manchester, London, wherever that is. So this idea, it sounds silly, but this idea to be told very young that you're lucky and lucky you are. It stayed with me all my life in a funny way. I've never been envious or thinking I'd rather be somewhere else or be somebody else or be with somebody else. Do you know how your parents met? no i don't they live close to each other probably went to church same church but my dad was in the navy when he met mum he's in the merchant navy and then when they got married he packed in the navy and got a job on the docks what was his name roger he was roger he was roger yeah and were you the first born i was yes i was yes yeah yeah and how many over there and you your family i just myself and brenda who died last year oh my so the just two of you yeah and yet they came from very large like traditional catholic families yeah yes yeah is this because they didn't practice um do we know why they had so few children didn't practice what the religion no i know i know you say no i don't know why price back to that generation of things well you know you're going to have too many children you're going to be poor so and your mother was called what uh mary agnes and can you remember mary and roger together what they were like as a couple they were good she was mum yeah my dad was rather rather quiet yeah he he didn't read he he had this working man's fear not fear but didn't like going to libraries didn't like going to anything when i went to grammar school for instance he he would never get involved in that he felt a bit out of kilter when he was with other fathers.

19:43He thought everybody else was cleverer than him. My mum was the one who thought I should go to grammar school, she should pass a scholarship, and she was a reader, and she sent me to elocution lessons, you know, to help me lose a loop of accent, because she used to say things like, you know, you can't speak, like, how are you, you know, you never do podcasts or anything when you don't know. questions that but um you know the sense you know you got to you know speak well what did they share what did together what did they have um they shared catholicism uh the love of the children the love of the families i suppose did he go to the pub every day no not all didn't drink no i didn't approve i think his dad was a drinker they didn't know they didn't but i imagine he smoked he smoked quite right very much so and why did he die at 53 yeah a lot of his friends did too a lot of his mates died around that same that age and and that's what people did i remember when i was 53 coming to 53 having thought that dad's died at 53 when i was 53 that's when i had my first daughter isabel so having had three sons suddenly there i am with the daughter isabel and thinking gosh I remember writing a poem called Cinders it was after taking Izzy to her first pantomime and just walking back and cuddling her and feeling like a grandfather in a way and thinking you know I won't be here to see her go to school won't be here to see her have a boyfriend won't be here to direct her and then three months ago Izzy who's now in her 30s had her granddaughter ariel who's this beautiful little now six month old granddaughter you mentioned the poem that you wrote when isabel was born when you were 53 have you got the poem there i i do and it's called uh it's called cinders after the pantomime carry you back to the car on the coldest night to the year my coat black leather cracking in the wind through the darkness we are guided by a star It's the one the good fairy gave you You clutch it tightly, your magic wand And I clutch you tightly For fear you blow away For fear you grew up too soon And suddenly I almost slip So take it steady down the hill Hunched against the wind and hobbling I could be mistaken for your grandfather And sensing this I hold you tighter still Knowing that I will never see you Dressed for the ball Be on hand to warn you against Prince Charming's and the happy ever afters of pantomime.

22:28On reaching the car, I put you into the baby seat and fumble with straps I've yet to master, thinking, if only there were more time, more time. You're crying now. Where's your wand? Oh no, I can't face going back for it. Let some kid find it in tomorrow's snow. Waiting in the wings, the witching hour. Already the car is changing. Smells sweet to brightening seed. We must go. We must go. When your father died, how old were you? I was at university. I think I'd just finished at Hull University, 2021. So you accepted it? Oh yeah, yes. I wrote a poem called Let Me Die, A Young Man's Death at the time.

23:15And that was very much why I was moving from Hull straight back to Liverpool to be a teacher. and that's when Liverpool was sort of taking off in a way as if the Beatles and everything else and the poetry. How did your mother cope as a widow? Difficult and then she had the onset of Parkinson's disease fairly soon

23:36and I was, as I say, I was then busy shooting around the country being a sort of scaffold semi-pop star poet. take me back to 1940s liverpool you during the second world war little boy the terraced house you describe what was you had a bedroom did you share it with your sister are you on your own i had a bedroom of my own um what was in the bedroom what was a tall boy remember things remember tall boy tall boy little cupboard a high cupboard high cupboard on on a stand I don't know. It's called a tall boy. It's a small cupboard, really. And probably a little wardrobe with a big mirror. Looked out over the yard.

24:21Quite small, tiny. And a bookshelf on my left. So bed, bookshelf. And you had books on the bookshelf? Books on the bookshelf, yes. Supplied by your mother. Probably, yeah. And then Brenda had a, we had a two-bedroom house, terrace house, so the bathroom would be converted to a bedroom for her. so the bathroom was we had a bath put downstairs in the kitchen so that the kitchen was friday night was bath night in the kitchen in the kitchen yeah yeah funny isn't it um yeah what was the food like did your mother do the cooking was she a housewife was that what she yeah she no she mum always worked as well she was a housewife but she worked first job she worked in richmond sausage factory don't quite what she did i think office job and then she worked in various laundries What were the meals she repaired for you?

25:08Can you remember food to the little boy? I, you know, when... A special occasion, you'd have, like, chicken or... Chicken. I don't know, really, to be honest. I don't remember much of it. Just had whatever else. Stew. Scouts. Did you do a cooked breakfast?

25:33I don't remember. Oh no, I'm just thinking all the trouble she went to getting her. Putting on the firepower and doing fried bread every morning for you. I know, I know. And here you are. It's only 80 years later and you can't remember. Maybe it was, was it being Weetabix? Was that around then? I expect it was. How interesting. I don't know. You see, bananas, we didn't have bananas, you see. Bananas came much later. Everything came later. Everything came later. It's the type of a poem there. Yeah, everything came later, man, honestly. Yeah. Whatever we had, we were lucky to have. Lots of chippies around.

26:08No restaurants, of course, no cafes. Or if there were, we didn't know anything. So it would have been a few and far between. Never went out. Never went out. Never had holidays. Didn't go broad until I was in my 20s. Did you have a radio wireless? We had a wireless, yes. And my mum used to like listening to opera for some reason. Oh. Yeah, yes. And my dad played the piano a bit, but very... Oh, did you have a piano? We had a piano. in the parlour the room we didn't go into weren't allowed into the parlour we were very communal I remember talking back to my dad again when he passed away and died the coffin was brought into the house I saw lots of bodies in coffins when I was growing up called my uncles and grandfather and they all died and used to go and visit where they're lying in the coffin and you know say the coffin was put on show on show in the parlour in that room That front room nobody ever went into.

27:04Exactly. Except when the coffin was there. And the coffin was open. Yeah, it was open. And the body was there and you went to pay respects. Exactly. So my mum and my father was laid out in the front room and the road outside, Ruthven Road, queues of men from the docks, his friends would all be in a queue, a literary queue right down the road around the corner, all coming to pay their respects to my dad and give my mum a hug, embarrassed. And, you know, that was very sort of moving as what went on. Very moving, actually. Also to see so many people there lined up. Yeah, no, it's funny. And I, you know, at the time I was seeing, you know, your aunt or the different grandfathers, a grandfather in a coffin or an uncle in a coffin, and it stayed with me.

27:53But I was never sort of aware of it until much later on, I'm writing lots of poems here about death. I wonder why. because so much of my time is spent. Oh, Let Me Die, A Young Man's Death, and this is the poem that was inspired at the time your father died. It was, yes. I wrote it shortly after he died, when Liverpool was all kicking off, it seemed to me. Let me die, a young man's death, not a clean and in-between the sheets holy water death, not a famous last words peaceful out of breath death, When I'm 73 and in constant good tumour, may be moaned down at dawn by a bright red sports car on my home from an all-night party.

28:39Or when I'm 91 with silver hair and sitting in a barber's chair, may rival gangsters with ham-fisted tommy guns burst in and give me a short back and insides. or when I'm 104 and banned from the cavern may my mistress catching me in bed with her daughter and fearing for her son cup me up into little pieces and throw away every piece but one let me die a young man's death not a free from sin tiptoe in candle wax and waning death not a curtains drawn by angels born what a nice way to go death that's sensational

29:25who was your first friend outside the family beyond Brenda and your parents oh schoolmates lads at school star of the sea junior school went there and then age 10 passed the scholarship I go to St Mary's college in Liverpool it was an Irish Christian Brothers a famously tough, famously tough. Tough in a good way? In a good way. Well, I mean, what they would say, they would say they took working class lads and gave them an education with the help of a strap, actually, a black leather strap. It's about 12 inches long. Not just for being naughty or anything, but as a help. So you stand up, go around the class and stand up and answer questions, say about geography or about French or whatever.

30:12and if you got it right, you sat down again but you remained standing, you got it wrong get it wrong second time and got the strap so that did help me to go home and think I don't want to get a strap again So it encouraged you I'm sorry to say it worked it encouraged you to know that the capital of France is Paris I used to be fascinated by these blooming straps that hit them on the desk and I thought where'd they came from you couldn't buy them Woolworths in those days you couldn't go on Google and Google a strap so i imagine they were probably made in in connemara by the little sisters of the good hiding

30:52i love it oh and sold through a catholic teacher's supply shop oh dear me but i was at school with lots of people i mean funny if we're talking john burt john burt the man who became the head of the bbc years ago then became lord burt indeed lord burt and a friend of mine he and lorry taylor big radio foreman yeah full of people turned out by these christian brothers so often we talk with when i meet john burt and other people that we talk about our days there and um it succeeded actually in taking people and giving them a good education and some of them went on to do good things so you know it's i'm is there a particular and there wasn't a word of any abuse at school you know there's nothing it wasn't horrible it was quite you know well it worked and what were your enthusiasms as a little boy what what did you enjoy doing to sport into music i wasn't into music oh no my mum has had took me to send me to elocution lessons to lose that loophole accent you see miss alan miss alan was my elocution and she liked poetry for some reason she used to get the group of lads and we'd recite poems things like half a league half a league half a league on one poems that were dramatic and we'd do them on stage and I also used to play in the drama group I was the girl I was the little girl I was very handsome Giles handsome little boy so I used to get the girl parts I remember Laurie Taylor actually Laurie Taylor for Radio 4 as the prince of somewhere and I was a princess and he gave me his first kiss on stage we had a first kiss on stage yeah um anyway uh sorry i'm sorry i'm charmed by this did you think it was strange that your mother wanted your accent to change no no no no i mean it meant that she it's very common very common in a way i think it was aspirational in her as pervading myself yeah yeah yeah you know preparing me for a life perhaps outside of liverpool and you know what you want to do when you grow up at school i mean In those days, it was very limited, you know.

33:06Get an office job, that would be okay. Be a priest, that was an offer. Things like being a writer just weren't on the cards, weren't around. So it's quite limiting, you just see what's going to happen. You didn't worry about it, you know, get on and see what happens. You took A-levels? I took A-levels. My old levels, I failed English a little. So I couldn't do English at A-level. so I did French history and geography and then went to university and I chose to do French and geography and this is the University of Hull yeah I was 17 very young really straight into a hall of residence called an Edel Hall and the sub warden of the hall was no other than Philip Larkin good grief yeah so he must have come straight from was it Belfast I think before he came to Haldon and he obviously hadn't got anywhere to stay then so they put him up he took over this job as sub warden of Needle Hall and his duties involved as far as I could see in the evening stand up before the meal and say Benedicto or something at the end of the meal and say grace but he was a very reclusive figure but he became a friend but it became, I owe him gratitude for later on when I sent him some poems and he was very kindly responsive and said, Mr McGough, you walk an impressionistic tightrope in your poetry and occasionally you fall off but don't worry, it's worth getting back on.

34:46And I found that very nice. Very nice. This is the late 1950s we're talking about at Hull. Yeah, exactly. And you're at Hull. clearly your faith has been part and parcel of your life throughout your life was there a time when it when you lapsed or has it always been part of it was always there in a way uh it was always the back of my mind and i i find it difficult just sometimes to talk to and people say to me you know you still go to church as if you're sort of you know deranged i say yes you actually believe that you know adam and eve in the garden i said no i don't believe that then why do you go to church well because it's it's so different how can i how can i explain um i'm still a catholic practicing catholic but i'm practicing but not not yet being very good at it but you've kept the practice up yeah and it hasn't been has it been a useful consolation for example when your father died at 53 was being a catholic helpful to you i think so i think so i mean not that i and probably times in life you think will you be reunited you know with the family?

35:56Will I go, will I wait to be reunited with them? I don't know. Yes, I really find it hard to put into words. And so much of my writing has been about that in a way, trying to find truths where perhaps truths don't exist. But it's consoling. It's consolatory. What age were you when you wrote your first poem?

36:21Probably at uni. I remember doing French my French wasn't very good but I used to like reading Rimbaud, Baudelaire, Neval and Je m 'en vais au vent mauvais qui m 'emporte de ça de la parée de la faille à mort I don't know what it means but it sounds lovely but you should like that and then one of the students had an LP of Wanda Milkwood and that took me wow I like that and started writing maybe little ditties maybe two girlfriends ends but funny enough jazza about two years ago i found this sheet of paper and it was the beginning of a poem about when i got a job one for student jobs as a waiter in this restaurant and i remember the poem starting off in between the tables silver gleaming i dash full splash soup plate steaming then it goes on to what happened to this waiter and he spilled stuff on people and yeah and this and that was very funny.

37:19But I thought, I could almost have written that last week. So I haven't improved over the years, but I seem to have that initially. I saw the voice, which was great, actually. So it seemed to have, I had the voice for quite early on. I don't know. It made you you, though. That was what was distinctive about you, was that you could do this with words. Tell me about the girls, because clearly the poetry in the girls. How long have you got? How long have you got? Well, people love to hear about this, and I do particularly. Yeah, I know. Tell me, can you remember your first girlfriend?

38:05You see, when you say your first girlfriend, what do we mean? I mean, I can remember girlfriends having a kiss on the canal bank, you know, feeling. But that probably wasn't the first girlfriend. from the first girlfriend was someone who held my hand going down the stairs. Or was the first girlfriend someone who'd go out with and commit to each other? Well, let me be specific then. Come on. I'm going to be specific. Come on, be specific. I'll give you, as it were, what I remember and see if you can give me what you remember. I remember the first time feeling, whatever this is, I think this is love.

38:39And this was somebody, I didn't know, there was somebody on stage. She was appearing in Alice with a Looking Glass. I remember her, yes. She was lovely. I felt the same and I fell for her there and then as chance would have it many years later I got to know her the actress really yeah but you fell in love then but I'm conscious I was about seven I'm conscious that this this is whatever this thing is called love at seven well eight seven no I think it would have been seven it was 1955 but you fell in love with someone who you didn't speak to I didn't speak to she came onto the stage and I felt a sensation that was new to me and was wonderful to me.

39:20Ah. So, do you remember a sensation like that? The first time you saw somebody and you thought, this is something special? No. Fine? Well, not in that sense. No, maybe I didn't go to the theatre enough. Well, it could have been in the cinema. Did you go to the cinema? Could have been a photograph. No, I'm interested in what you're saying because you're seeing somebody and falling in love, in a sense. Yeah, I am. Or your heart skips a beat. I'm sick, yeah, the hard skip to beat. And yes, it was, well, it feels very vivid to me now. Interesting, okay. So what is the first... You're not making it up?

39:56No, I'm not making it up. Okay. What is the first vivid sense? I may, as it were, over the years, glorified it, increased the magic element of it, focused on it. You tend to do that, yeah.

40:13But I'm asking you, as you didn't have anything similar, So, then I would go on, I'd move on from that to a girl in a pub called Susan Thomas, whose dad owned the pub. And I remember, I would be again about seven, eight, playfully running along the top of the bar, falling over and hurting myself, but knowing this was intermingled with desire for this girl. Desire? I was affectionate desire okay can you give me a comparable example of that no god no okay I'm moving on now to the first but I mean this sort of what's interesting I find this fascinating it's all pre-teen I'm supposed to be having a conversation with you sorry no no no because in my case it would be like teens I think I always assumed oh this came this sort of feelings came in in your teens that came to you so early, I find quite interesting.

41:18So by the time you were 11, you were fed up with it, I suppose. No, by the time I was 11, I had a younger brother, who was 10 years younger than me, and I remember pushing the pram around parts of South Ken, Earl's Court, Gloucester Road, where we lived, and walking endlessly along the street where the girl lived. Gosh. and feeling so that we've been 11 so give me your first one you're saying teen teen those are before actually even knowing that the the person knew who you were but what's your first encounter with a with a touched hand or a kiss i don't you know i don't remember i mean there will have been kiss and touched hands i think i can name them patricia maureen girls you liked in a group, but this would be when I was probably a young teenager, going to youth club, the dancing and the jiving and that sort of thing and square dancing, you used to have square dancing on Sunday night, and we used to play Postman's Knock, did you play Postman's Knock?

42:21Oh yes, remind me the rules Well, we didn't have them in Liverpool we'd all be in a group or sit around the sofas like boys and girls and then someone goes out and then they say a number, we all have numbers don't we I think and then they come in and they say the number but if you hold on a number, you go out and you give them a kiss in the hall, and then they come back in and you stay outside, and then you have a number. And it was just a little kiss in the hall, I remember that, with various, you know, wishing you'd changed a number. Oh, sorry, wrong number. That could be a poem, too. I'm amazed you haven't written a poem called The First Kiss.

42:58No, I haven't. But I do remember, and people often say, where did you meet your wife, Hilary? I remember very well meeting Hilary at a bus stop, at a bus stop in Liverpool, and I was waiting for a bus. Unbeknown to us, there was a bus strike. So we waited and waited and talked and talked, and she's from Yorkshire, I'm very chatty. So we chatted and walked down to the pub. Both happened to be going to the same pub, and that's how we met. So I remember that quite succinctly. But first times, no. When I was four or five, like you were meeting your first girls, chasing them around the streets. I don't remember that at all.

43:36I was four or five. I was seven. Seven, sorry, sorry. She was on a stage for safety. Sorry, chasing them around the avenues. And later, I was indeed walking the streets with moist eyes and a warm heart. Ah, bless. And then when I got into my teens, I do vividly remember the first touches and caresses. Oh, should we go into that? No, we don't need to go into that at all. I was just trying to tease it out of you. Okay. so you go to hull and there you begin properly writing your poems yeah but yeah yeah and how does that develop what does that what how does that grow yes it was private thing in a way for me because i didn't know what to do with them like i i did extra year stayed on a year and did the teaching diploma came back to liverpool and went straight into a job in kirby it's outside liverpool at a boy's comprehensive so the plan was be a teacher be a teacher yeah of course but after two years there, I saw a job advertised for, you like this, this was assistant lecturer in catering French.

44:37Catering French. Catering French. So not many of those around, not many of them. So here I went along and I just. This is sauce Bernays. C 'est ça, c 'est ça, c 'est ça, exactly. And there's Miss Odell, I remember was the head mistress of the college. So it was doing this and because all the students there all good little young chefs but they couldn't speak french why should they and so if it was like um a chinois they'd have to use a chinois what is a chinois i don't know i was wondering

45:13exactly that a shiny is shiny shaped oh it was like a colander oh Oh, indeed. It was a Shinoa. Like a traditional Chinese hat. Exactly. Converted with hose on it. So I would say, they know what he did with it. Well, a Shinoa, I didn't know what he did with it, but I know what it was called. But they knew what the word was. But then, of course, being creative, after a while, they're things like, so, you know, Mr. McGuff, what's Brûlée mean? Creme Brûlée? I didn't know what creme, I knew what Brûlée meant. Burnt, of course. But I'd say things like, ah, Creme Brûlée, yeah, ah. that was named after the famous battle of Brueh in Austria in 1856 with Napoleon and I go and it became sort of a source of inspiration for me, I loved it so I did that for two years then when I was there I had discovered Liverpool, Liverpool 8 that part of Liverpool were there's clubs and the music scene was going on and there was also the Everyman Theatre downstairs as Hope Hall, as it was then, were poets were doing poetry reading and folk singers were singing.

46:19Because this is the beginning of the 1960s now. It was, yeah. You're in the early 20s. Exactly, yeah. And Liverpool is beginning to take off. Exactly. And becomes world famous. And you happened to be there. I did. So I used to go to school, teach during the day, and I was dressed like a teacher with my corduroy jacket and leather things around the way. But in my bag I had, like, black polo neck sweater and gold wire cigarettes and a few poems. and I go into a telephone box and emerge, you know, as a sort of beatnik poet and I go down to these places and that's where I met Brian Patton, Adrian Henry and later on, John Goldman, Mike McCartney and poetry and music and scaffold and all the things came out of it.

46:59So what was the first club you went to and what was it like? What was the name of it? Did you literally go downstairs? Was it full of smoke? Yes, the first one was Streets, S-T-R-E-A-T-E-S and those downstairs and they used to have jazz in the evenings and also started doing poetry. And what happened? The people played a bit of modern jazz. Yeah, and then they'd go away. And then you'd stand up. And the someone would come and do really poetry, yeah. Without a microphone in those days. Probably, yeah. Didn't need one microphone. And you just read from a notebook? Yeah, I would do that. I'd listen to Adrian Henry and Brian Patton came along.

47:31Brian was then a young journalist. He came down and he heard about it. We went and he came and read a poem. But then we moved on to, as I say, the Everyman Theatre as it was then. was called Hope Hall. But all these clubs had a night when the place wasn't used by musicians. So that's when the poets would often assemble. And I used to write poems and also I used to write little sketches. I like doing the sort of political sketches and that sort of thing. And who was in the audience? Students, maybe our college students, I think. Six formers. When did you become known as the Liverpool Poets? And how did that evolve?

48:04Oh, that came later on when the editor of Penguin Modern Poets came along, heard about the Liverpool poetry scene and invited Brian, Ada and I to be published by Penguin. So part of this wonderful collection that had been before, Penguin, Modern Poets. And we were number 10. And that's the one that went on to sell over a million copies over the years. Congratulations. This is brilliant. This is so unlikely. Here you are, this Liverpool boy, teaching by day, by night putting on your pernonek sweater in the telephone booth like Superman you emerge and become this sort of beat poet and that was 1967 that was published yeah that's amazing and this of course also is the Beatles time Mike McCartney yeah Mike McCartney as it was then came along and who did you say as he was then he was Mike yes he was a lady's hairdresser Mike and he was he liked he was drawn to it like um John Gorman was very much part of it who's very much a very funny guy, very comic person.

49:06Adrian Henry would take part in these sketches and God Lady. ABC Television heard about what was going on down there, came along and saw us doing our show, a show, a series of shows, and then auditioned five of us for a show called Gazette, and they chose myself, John, and Mike. And Mike, was he related to Paul McCartney? He was Paul McCartney's brother, yes. We didn't know this at the time. We weren't interested in Mike because it was just in a band. Yeah, Mike's brothers in a band. The Beatles. Oh, any good? Oh, very good. Yeah, so then I packed in my teaching and became a scaffolder. Gosh. So you earned your living from your 20s onwards as a performer and poet.

49:53Yes. I mean, I don't think there could be any other poet in the history of the world who has managed that. Well, no. Can you name one? I don't think you can. It's notoriously difficult to earn a living as a poet. Yeah, it is. So congratulations. Thank you. Thank you, dear. So when did it become The Scaffold? Was that the television conference idea? Well, that's it. That's when we got the job on Gazette. And who decided the name The Scaffold? There's some... I think I did. John thinks he did. And Mike thinks he did. So one of us did. I tell you why. Because we used to call The Scaffold. Nothing to do with buildings.

50:28But we all wore black. and wore gloves and because these sketches I was writing about politicians. So I was taking the mickey out of politicians on the scaffold. We're going to put you down. We're going to... You know, so it was like a political word. The next thing, we're wearing white suits singing Lily the Pink. Do you remember? And thank you very much for the H-E-I-N. Thank you very much. And was that good for you? Because by then you'd had, you'd got married for the first time to Thelma. I had got married to Thelma, yeah. And did that for a while, obviously, that worked for a while? It worked for a while.

51:00She was good in the fact that she encouraged me as a... She was at art college. I lived at art college with John Lennon, actually. She was there in the same group. There were chums. And Paul was around. And she encouraged me as a writer, yeah. And we had two children, but the marriage didn't last. And I was on the road a lot. Being on the road, what was that like? Give us a flavour of this late 60s life now when you're on the road. Yeah, it was sort of exciting in a way at first and doing shows. But then when we were sort of, when the record came out, suddenly you're in demand on this circuit.

51:34You know, the... What was the record called? Oh, Thank You Very Much was our first one. Then Lily the Pink. Yeah. When Lily became a number one, suddenly it was big demand. Off you go around the country and the world later on, but around the country doing these, not working men's clubs, but ones where they, what are they called? Prawn in a basket, you know, chip in a basket. I just want to pause here for people listening to this who don't know all this. I think how extraordinary it is that you and your colleagues, actually, the poetry anthology, the book, the collection of your poems, I think I'm right in saying, was and is the most successful poetry book published since the Second World War.

52:12A million-selling book of poems. And you had number one hit singles. Well, it's pretty amazing. Extraordinary. did it in some way spoil you i mean in the sense that you go out there you become this sort of star you're with this group is that one of the reasons that when you see you come to end up in london that your marriage collapses i mean is that part and parcel of it or was it a good time i don't know so many questions in there aren't there i don't know i mean i do remember doing things like you do top of the pops yeah and then you go and do late night lineup sometime in the evening and and talk about intellectual stuff and all that.

52:55So the poetry, so there's two sides of it, the coin all the time, which sounds great. At the same time, a lot of the critics and poetry critics didn't take you very seriously because you're in the scaffold. You can't really be a serious poet if you're on stage in a white suit singing Leela Pink. You know, you're from Liverpool. What do you know about poetry? Honestly, there's some other things. We refer to it as the three-headed pantomime horse from Liverpool, you know, by well-known people. And a lot of people had a go at us, you know, because it's not really poetry, my dear. But we're popular.

53:26I mean, that was great. And that was the main thing. And we had a voice and gave voice to a lot of people, encouraged people to write poetry. I've always thought that. We all have a poeminess and a sense and a love of it. The music side of it, quite different, because I was never a musician, Charles. You know, it was great fun doing it. But if you go in sharing a studio, as I did, people like Paul McCartney would produce. Elton John, I was Reg Dwight at the time. He would come on as a session singer. Jimi Hendrix sat in on some of our sessions. And you're all talking together in between takes and chatting away about this, and you feel like one of them, one of the gang.

54:06And then someone picks up a guitar or sits at a piano, and then you realise you're not a musician. But you can do something with words. I can do something with words, yeah. You do amazing things with words. is there an element in you of resentment that when it comes to poetry this lightweight thing that obviously began then has has it dogged you in your life that people don't say oh no who have we had as poet laureate from andrew motion to simon armitage well you're as good as them in my book but would you be i mean i know you mean yes i mean it's good to me yes uh in a way and I think, because I've heard it so often, generally not taken seriously because you can be funny as well.

54:53And that's always been... But it's added to my popularity, if you like. You know, and I know I can... People enjoy that side of the poetry. And maybe the ones who, with the sense of humour, like the funny ones, they're not the ones who make the decision about who becomes poet laureate or this and the other. What to you is a poem? Have you got a poem to share? You brought a notebook there. I know, in case I couldn't think of anything to say. No, they're all so good. They are all so good. No, they're not. It's funny. When you said that, Charles, my immediate thought was going for this one I've just written the other day.

55:33And I would say that, if I could remember it. And it's quite funny. But then I'd regret not having done something serious. But I'll do one here, which is a bit of both. can do this one. And wrote this. You don't, I mean, one can still be serious while being funny, I think. Here's the funny one. It's called Chamber. Chamber. The Chamber. I've got to remember, it's not as I've got to remember. Okay, Chamber by Roger McGough from memory. When the Chamber gets smelly, politicians being full of hot air, the Speaker of the House upstanding will declare, Oda! Oda!

56:18he's laughing he's laughing everybody well i'm laughing it's very funny i like it um but this is a poem which is a recent poem and it's um called alexa is this a poem for several months now my routine on waking has been to turn to alexa and say Alexa, who's Roger McGough? And listen carefully to the information she provides. Then, clear-headed, I'm up and out of bed, ready to comply with the narrative and become the person she has described. However, this morning, her response to my simple question was to hesitate before saying, sorry, I don't know the answer to that one. Would you like me to play Radio 4?

57:05stultified paralyzed and mortified i remain bed bound for the rest of the day who am i what do i do who out there in the world can i trust to tell me close to 10 o 'clock at night a thought occurred alexa i said what day is it today april the first she replied known throughout the world as April Fool's Day. Did you enjoy my little joke this morning, Roger? I regret acting as cruelly as I did. I will always remember her last words. Amazon, help, help, help, help.

57:55What does poetry do? that prose can't do. Interesting. When I'm writing a poem, it always takes me by surprise. I don't know what's going to happen at the end, I think. With that poem about Alexa, I did beginning, start off with the idea of asking her how you were, and then I started the poem to see what was going to happen. Whereas if you're writing prose, and if I occasionally do that, and mainly now for things like presentations, award presentations or something, or, you know, give your speech somewhere, you've got to make sure it makes sense, so middle, beginning and end and get it right and, you know, towards where you're going usually.

58:40But I couldn't write, I've written one bit of a novel, but I find that hard to do, I think, to tell the story. I find it hard to be imaginative in the way there's so many good novelists are. What's the story? I don't know what the story's going to be. I don't know where the poem's going to end. Hopefully it will look after me. it's clear what your strength is. Humour, wonderful way with words. Handsome, this glowing animal sexuality. Are you conscious of any weakness? Yes. What would your weakness be?

59:18Well, my ankle's playing me up at the moment, but you don't mean that really, do you? I don't know, a lack of confidence. I was having a lack of confidence and sometimes it's a good thing but you miss opportunities I suppose Tell me, why is it a good thing to lack confidence? Well sometimes people are overconfident and come unstuck or they're pushy, you know I'm aware of that You see, at Friends One One Once I've never really as it goes back to the blitz, doesn't it? The child told, there's bombs banging outside it's a mini mini Gaza in Liverpool C4th 1941 and you're told how lucky you are. If I ask you for a moment of joy in your life what comes instantly into your head?

1:00:06No time to think about it I just say joy Roger McGough

1:00:16Joy Joy Roger McGough The idea is something's supposed to come in isn't it your mind it isn't it yeah a joy I mean well a joy well I think of something no I think of something joyful I think of my Ariel my new little granddaughter and that just brings joy into my life of course and I see my family all the time you know three sons and a daughter and three grandchildren all lovely I like where I live and you know I get old I mean my poem my recent poems people are concerned aren't they Giles about AI people are worried about AI well I'm less worried about AI than AR AR is age related everything is age related now you know you get something wrong with you the doctors go oh it's age related and I mean when you invited me to come along to this podcast and thank you very much for the A &G thank you very much I remember being in A &E at Queen Mary's at the time when your invitation came along.

1:01:26I'd get my eyes looked at. So all these poems now are about being an A &I or not being an A &I. Two more questions. Yes. Then I'm going to ask you to choose a poem. I have five volumes of your poems here. No, it isn't all. I couldn't find the collected poems, which is the big one, which would have almost everything in it. That's more about the Kim the Door Open, I think, by the cellar. Sorry. I'm wanting you to finish by reading this poem. Before we do, two quick ones. I mentioned a moment of joy. And again, I want this, whatever comes into your head, don't self-censor or argue with yourself about whether this is a legitimate thing or not.

1:02:05A moment of sadness. From your early life particularly, because that's really what we're talking about. Yeah, we are, aren't we?

1:02:17But this is good. It's like where we began. You're actually following a ball, but it turns out, the truth is, you were going through barboire following a dog that was blown up, and you don't remember that. That's it. So maybe part of your survival technique is to... See, yes, you're right. I mean, and I talk glibly about being how lucky I was and how tall I look. At the same time, it must have had its effect. I mean, I did have, remember, like a nervous tick when I was a little bit young. I remember that, I was, you know, nervous. And it must have affected me, but I wasn't conscious of it. So again, when I say, as I referred to before, my auntie's saying, oh, Roger, he's very nervous.

1:03:02Oh, Roger, you know, he's very clever, but he's very nervous. And that's what they meant, I suppose. I probably exhibited signs of sort of fear or nervousness. And is one of the advantages of being a Catholic? I don't know, because I'm an Anglican, not a Catholic. is that if you go to confession, your sins, are they wiped clean? I mean, it's part and parcel of your lifelong habit that on a weekly basis, I assume you go to confession once a week. Oh, God, no. Oh, I thought you said you were a practising Catholic. I do. You have to go every week, Charles. Come on. But you go to church every week.

1:03:38I watch you. Oh, pretty well, I do. We are neighbours, and I see you all of a sudden walking down the road. I do, I do. This rather lovely figure. Very nice. It's quite reassuring. Lovely, thank you. I feel it's going on. But, no, you don't have to go every week. No, no, if you go every six months, fine. At my age, come on, once every couple of years, fine. Come on. What I'm really, the serious question I'm asking is that are you in the habit, as part of being a Catholic, one of the advantages is that you get things off your chest. Yeah, I think you do, yes. And that the slate is wiped clean and therefore you are allowed to move on.

1:04:11What it does, you see, spirituality aside, you face up to yourself and say, have I been, did I upset so-and-so? Did I, was I, and you do upset people, you didn't mean to, have I been selfish? Have I been pushy when I shouldn't have been? Have I, did I not listen to someone when they're telling me something? Was I too involved in what I was doing? Have I forgotten to be in, get in touch with Auntie so-and-so or Mrs so-and-so? What in all your life, before you read me a poem, I'm looking forward to a poem, I read them again too, because often they're short. What have you learned? what's life taught you i'm still waiting i'm still waiting uh charles i mean people you know not to offer advice really i mean people i always read these things in the newspapers don't you ends up well advice to somebody or what have you learned in your life what would you offer other people i have no idea you know each to his own um i i i don't know i'm lucky to be here lucky to be here with you thank you very much well what you have given us is hundreds of poems i love your poetry years ago we did an anthology together of a big book of little poems and i do remember you ringing the doorbell here at my house because we are neighbors one day and telling me on the doorstep oh i'm quite excited i'm i'm working on a new poem and i'm quite excited i've just begun i'm working on this new poem and i said oh yes do share it with me and he said you said i will and it goes like this so far so good and then he walked away so those that's my short poem of yours that i remember is there a poem you'd like to to read or you have in your head that you could share with us can i be serious moment i'd love you to be serious okay this is a recent poem you may or may remember but um the eurovision song contest was held in liverpool year before last the reason being because of the problems in ukraine ukraine won it and liverpool did a great job but what they did also was to include various ukrainian exhibitions there's an exhibition of ukrainian photographers and i went along to see it and wrote this poem call me world I am land.

1:06:36I am happy for you to live on me, till and plough, graze your cattle, build your homes upon me. I will feed, nourish, even bury you, but I am not yours. Not yours to fight over, to invade and plunder, divide and destroy. I do not belong to you. Even though you claim me, I am not yours. I have no name, flag or anthem. Call me world. When I make you angry, call me names. Earthquake, wildfire and volcano, call me tsunami, tornado. But do not call me China or Russia, Ukraine or Taiwan. I'm not your Israel or Palestine, your America or United Kingdom. I am land. I've no name but earth. Call me world.

1:07:23I will sit for your landscape paintings, pose for your cameras, for your songs and poems be a source of inspiration but I'm not yours Japan, Pakistan, choose a name Iran, Afghanistan one and the same you come and go only I remain call me world Roger McGough, thank you so much thank you Charles

1:07:57Thank you.

1:08:26Thank you.