Naz Shah

0:00Naz Shah: Hi, this is Matt from P1 with Matt and Tommy and this episode is sponsored by eBay. The cars you'll find on eBay are just different. They come with a story that you can't wait to share. Like this 1973 Dodge Charger on eBay that has been tucked away in an Arizona barn for over 40 years, only 55 ,000 miles and somehow in great running order. It even has a rare sunroof. Suddenly a car that was hidden for decades is being delivered in just a few clicks with eBay's secure purchase. All the paperwork handled. There are thousands of cars on eBay, from unique finds like the Pontiac Grand Prix SJ to daily drivers, and now with a new way to buy them.

0:39Naz Shah: eBay. Things people love. We optimise everything about our health routines, except the air we breathe. And when your air is off, your body feels it first. The Blue Air Blue Signature Air Purifiers quietly remove tiny airborne pollutants and odours, supporting deeper sleep, better recovery, and clearer focus. Visit blueair.com and use code SIGNATURE30. Hello again, I'm Giles Brandreth. The month is March, the daffodils are in bloom, and this is Rosebud.

1:30Naz Shah: My special guest today is a politician. She's a Member of Parliament. She's a Labour Member of Parliament for Bradford West. I think she succeeded George Galloway there. But she's not here today because she's a Member of Parliament. She's here today because coming up on Sunday is International Women's Day. And she is somebody with an international background, but also with quite a story to tell. Her name is Nazim Shah. She was born in November 1973 in Bradford in England. But her heritage is, well, it's complicated and fascinating. Her father left her family when she was quite young and she was sent to Pakistan by her mother to escape her mother's abusive partner.

2:15Naz Shah: And there she had an arranged marriage. So this is a story that involves abuse and murder, in fact. this is a truly fascinating remarkable story moving alarming but i think you'll find naz tells it with art humanity and at times humor so this is a special rosebud just ahead of international women's day with naz shah mp

2:56Naz Shah: Naz Shah, born on the 13th of November 1973. My first question is simply this. What, Naz, is your very first memory?

3:06Gyles Brandreth: Thank you, Giles. My first memory has been on top of a brown Panasonic TV. And it was colour because it had four coloured dots on it, which were new. And my dad was spinning me around on it. And he was singing the Borne M song, Brown Girl in the Ring. Tra-la-la-la-la. yeah where was this uh this was in hartman place in bradford in my constituency what i serve now yeah because you were born in bradford i was born in bradford born in my constituency raised

3:35Naz Shah: and then yeah and i represent it now and you mentioned there your father tell me about your father who was he what was his name and then tell me about your mother his name was abid abid abid

3:46Gyles Brandreth: Abid Shah, A-B-I-D. Abid Shah. He was a good-looking guy. He had a personality, an infectious personality. When he walked into the room, you knew he entered. He was the most popular father in the street because he bought sweets. And I remember all the kids used to run to hours, and he always had a bag of sweets ready. He had a really lovely aura about him. And he was tall, dark, and handsome, as they say. Well done, him. and your mother and my mum Zora how do you spell that Z double O R A lovely and Zora um she when my dad and her marriage she was only 17 she came from Pakistan so she didn't speak the language like my dad did and she's a slim five foot two um she's in her 70s now but she still gets out and

4:38Naz Shah: about on the walking sticks and how did they meet where did they meet well it was a traditional

4:44Gyles Brandreth: arranged marriage to her first cousin, her dad's brother's son. And they married when she was 17. And he was, I think he was 19. And he'd been living in the UK. So he went to school in the UK. So he spoke with a broad Yorkshire accent. And my mum was raised in a very conservative village. She was the youngest of her siblings, of her six siblings. And she was, in her words, the apple of her dad's eye and she was uh yeah she was she had a boisterous nature about her

5:18Naz Shah: and she was told you were to marry your first cousin and she accepted that with a good grace

5:23Gyles Brandreth: because she was a well brought up girl absolutely it's really funny because when i watch bridgerton and i see how people you know in the old english way how girls were picked to suited to so and so it wasn't very dissimilar it was just in a different era generally it was it was the I don't think at the time. Yeah.

5:40Naz Shah: And they lived where? What was the sort of house? All in Bradford.

5:44Gyles Brandreth: Grantham Street in Bradford, which again is in my constituency. So mum and dad were living there when they had me.

5:52Naz Shah: And what do you remember of them when they were together? Your very earliest memories of them as a couple.

5:57Gyles Brandreth: That's where it gets a bit tricky. So my earliest memories of them when they were a couple is my dad beating my mum. yeah so that's what that's your first memory of him that's one of my first memories yes my memories aren't of laughter they're not of they're not of a couple going out together doing things together like a normal family but to me that was my normal my normal was dad coming home from work he worked night shifts in a mill and my earliest memory was you know she my mum has very long hair and it's in a plait and him having her plait in his hand and dragging her and beating her.

6:36Naz Shah: Dragging her and beating her? Yeah. And you witnessed this with your own eyes as a little girl? Yes, I witnessed it with my own eyes. Were there any brothers and sisters? Did you have siblings?

6:44Gyles Brandreth: So I was the first born, so I was the eldest. I had a brother who came along. He was a baby. And my, yeah, so at that time, that was, we lived in Anvil Street at the time. So that was my first memory.

6:56Naz Shah: And it's a bitter, difficult memory to have. What was, can you, it's difficult, can you picture how you felt about it at the time i remember my mum's eyes and the look on her face

7:10Gyles Brandreth: because i ran up the stairs so we lived in a back-to-back house in anvil street and you had to go down these stone stairs and you turned left and that was the entrance to the house on the right there was a door and then on the left was a was a a kitchen a very small kitchenette and then on on the right hand side was a living room just one living room i can i know very very the clear clear details of how that room was and I remember my mum begging me to go call somebody so I ran up the stairs crossed the road ran up to another set of stairs banged on the neighbour's door to somebody come and stop him beating her and that is one of my first memories and those steps seemed like because I was only tiny I was five or six years old them steps seemed like a mountain to climb and I remember just being wanting him to stop and what language do you and your mother speak together so we speak Punjabi or um with a dialect of Midbri because that's the area that we come from in Pakistan or my my family came from my mum came from and she only spoke that language yes she only spoke that so she was quite isolated very because my dad speaks both languages and but she only spoke that language and who was she sending you to get help from the neighbors they were they were fellow Pakistani neighbors who lived in the street so she was telling me to go and go get them.

8:32Naz Shah: And did help come?

8:32Gyles Brandreth: Oh, they came. They came and they stopped him. Yeah, they came and stopped him.

8:36Naz Shah: And what was prompting him to behave like this?

8:39Gyles Brandreth: So that I'll never understand. I never, you know, whether it was, so like I said, my mum had a boisterous, free nature kind of streak in her. You know the old saying where you say children should be seen and not heard? It's a bit like that. A woman in that mindset, in that culture, you're expected to be an obedient wife and maybe she wasn't obedient. Maybe she shared her opinions. I don't know the detail of that but it's like anything isn't it why do men beat women and how frequently was this happening well I witnessed it quite a lot but I also had some good memories of mum you know washing up and in the kitchen and I remember being in a in a rocking chair my dad was in and I was play fighting with him and I remember winding him and my mum screamed out of the kitchen what we've done to him and he just said it's okay it's okay that we're just playing.

9:28Gyles Brandreth: So there were some of those memories. But it was never... If I look at my children and what they see with me and their father, there is a very big... Whether we're watching a movie together, little things like cooking together, things like happening in a normal home environment, that's not what my experience was.

9:47Naz Shah: Did you think at that age, I've got to help my mum, did you feel you had to give her a cuddle or a hug to show her things were all right?

9:54Gyles Brandreth: at all i didn't think like that at the time the only thing i thought of was saving her from that beating but other than that i was just a just a child i didn't think i didn't that that came later

10:05Naz Shah: on when you're i think only six is when he leaves yes and he walks out he's had enough what happens

10:12Gyles Brandreth: well he eloped with the neighbor's daughter so this this you know this man that i adored and loved so dearly and I was the apple of his eye he left he left for the neighbor's daughter he was he had a car um in those days which was rare to have a car just like the color tv you know he was well to do he had a factory he was making bed settees and furniture it was his factory that

10:37Naz Shah: he was going they were say working at the mill I imagined him being a mill worker he'd moved on

10:41Gyles Brandreth: from there so he'd he'd gone into so after him after he worked in the mill he then set up a factory making bed settees so sofa beds and when he was it was at that time that we'd moved to Hartman Place so the memories for the Beatings were in Anvil Street then we moved to Hartman Place and it was there that he eloped with a neighbour's daughter.

11:03Naz Shah: So he's tall, dark and handsome, he's entrepreneurial, he's successful, you move up in the world and he leaves. Do you remember the day he left?

11:14Gyles Brandreth: I know it was a February. I think it was a February, a date in February. It was soon after my sixth birthday, because my sixth birthday was in November. And I remember that birthday very, very clearly, because I got a walkie-talkie doll child, but it was in a red outfit with blonde hair and really pretty doll. And you put one arm up and she walked and the other arm up and she talked. And I had a little recorder in the chest kind of thing. So yes,

11:40Naz Shah: and it was straight after that not long after and did he tell you he was going oh no he loved you

11:48Gyles Brandreth: know an affair is bad any any day right but then if you're taking a neighbor's daughter and going the whole concept of is that which is a so is that is a word called it's honor right so my book is called honored and is it is a concept with which which is embryonic in us it's it's it's you know I describe it as it's something that I'm conceived with. It's the parameters within which to live life. It's like a cord. It's like a moral conduct behaviour.

12:17Naz Shah: Honour is everything.

12:18Gyles Brandreth: Yes, honour is everything. So you hear about, and I don't like the term in this context, but you hear about honour killings because of honour. And if you've run off with somebody's daughter, that daughter is their honour. So when you elope with, you bring, and this is 1980, it was it was bad it was you there was the days of the bounty hunters if an errant daughter left or wanted to do what she wanted to do and she didn't want to get have a marriage or wanted to get an education and the parents didn't agree and she left home they could literally hire bounty hunters to bring them back those were the days and in those days my father was one of the first people to have done that to have taken off with another band's daughter so he's committing the

13:02Naz Shah: ultimate sin really yes absolutely i mean and well it's appalling and he just leaves overnight one day

13:09Gyles Brandreth: he's there the next day he isn't there no the next day he isn't there and who tells you that dad has left and it wasn't really explained to me it was never explained to me because it was such a big thing it was such a scandal it was such a nobody sat down and said this is what's happened you had to figure it all out and you never quite figured it all out you just you know apart from your mum crying and you know you've been shipped off to your granddad's house because your dad has left and because there was real real fear of retribution on the girls in our family because he had taken somebody else's daughter and somebody else's honor that to exact revenge there could be there was risk to the girls in our family so our girls my cousins who were older than me all of them were stopped from going going to school they were stopped from doing those things you know because

13:59Naz Shah: there was real risk of retribution gosh so you moved from the house yes so we were packed into

14:06Gyles Brandreth: the back of a car and my mum my pregnant mother at the time my younger pregnant by of course yeah husband who just left yes she was uh she was pregnant she had a she had foursie was born in july so this was just before a few months before she was born my gosh so you get into this car can

14:24Naz Shah: you remember being in that car can you remember that drive that i can actually because my mum was

14:29Gyles Brandreth: upset and we had a black bin liner when i now talk about my life and or when i do leadership in because i'm in love with the idea of leadership i usually have a screen behind me and it's just one one slide and it just has a black bin liner on it because a bin liner came to define lots of my experiences of moving and moving and moving with your possessions in the bin yes all your

14:52Naz Shah: possessions in a bin so you're in a car being driven by i think it was my uncle at the time

14:57Gyles Brandreth: might have been a taxi not sure but i remember being in the car yeah i remember it was in the dead of night kind of thing literally you were you were escaping he developed you know how to

15:06Naz Shah: escape yes god yeah in case there was going to be some revenge capture of members of your family

15:11Gyles Brandreth: and where do you go to my granddad's on kirkham road which was still in my constituency it was in bradford seven and my granddad we went there so we lived we stayed with him and his family

15:24Naz Shah: and your mother then is thrown into the real world suddenly yes i mean because she doesn't

15:30Gyles Brandreth: even speak english no she didn't speak any english how are we going to earn your living well she eventually started working but yes she was uh she was destitute she was literally out on her own in a world that she didn't know how long were you living with your grandparents we lived with them for a few months i think and then we moved to a rented house on Derby Street, which is just outside of my constituency now.

15:56Naz Shah: And do you think of that as your childhood home? I don't think of any of them as my childhood home, really,

16:04Gyles Brandreth: because there were so many. Do you know, there wasn't any consistency. There was, I think, Legrum's Lane, which we went into in 82, 83. That became a bit more consistent because we were there until 1992.

16:20Naz Shah: you know so yeah 1991 yeah and what did you make sure was always in your bin liner your black bin liner in my bin liner who that doll i hope yeah that doll no i left the doll i didn't have the

16:34Gyles Brandreth: doll i didn't carry the doll i'll never forget the doll but i i didn't have the doll so what did you have toys weren't a thing that we had that's why that doll was so exciting interesting yeah so it It was just clothes?

16:47Naz Shah: It was just clothes. Did you have nice clothes?

16:49Gyles Brandreth: They were just average clothes, I suppose, at the time. But I certainly didn't have the doll with me.

16:56Naz Shah: That's very interesting. Books? Any personal possessions to you?

17:00Gyles Brandreth: Nothing. Nothing. I do not remember a personal possession to me that we moved around with. It was literally just clothes, whatever clothes we had on our backs.

17:11Naz Shah: and how was your relationship with your mother during these years when you were nomadic because you're growing up by now you're sort of six to eight aren't you it's either if you look at it

17:22Gyles Brandreth: from a child's eyes you don't really think about these things it's just you're normal it's like when you listen to people who have grown up in poverty they don't realize they've grown up in poverty until they leave poverty because that's what's normal to them so to me that was my normal and once I look back on it as a mother as an adult you know it's um I look back on it and it saddens me now you know and nobody's actually asked me the question Charles about possessions you know nobody's ever asked me that detail before about what did I carry so that's quite so that will give me something to reflect on because it is it actually saddens me thinking actually I didn't have a possession I didn't have that favorite toy I didn't have that book you know

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18:54Naz Shah: Like this 1973 Dodge Charger on eBay that has been tucked away in an Arizona barn for over 40 years. only 55 ,000 miles and somehow in great running order. It even has a rare sunroof. Suddenly, a car that was hidden for decades is being delivered in just a few clicks with eBay's secure purchase. All the paperwork handled. There are thousands of cars on eBay, from unique finds like the Pontiac Grand Prix SJ to daily drivers, and now with a new way to buy them. eBay. Things people love.

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19:57Gyles Brandreth: at six you must have been at school by then um i i'm not sure i was at that point um i used to go to nursery um and green lane green lane was my which is the where barbara castle launched her preschool meals uh so yes i was at green lane nursery and then i went to green lane primary

20:17Naz Shah: for a bit and at green lane primary did you tell any of the other children about not having a dad Did it ever come up?

20:26Gyles Brandreth: I don't remember it coming up. It was something that came up as I was growing up and I became aware of because my dad wasn't around. And then I knew by this time I'd worked it out, figured it out, but he'd left with the neighbour's daughter. But it wasn't something that we sat and discussed. It wasn't something that my mother sat me down and said, this is what's happened. You figured it out through adult conversations.

20:48Naz Shah: When did you next get a settled home?

20:50Gyles Brandreth: Next settled home was definitely Legrooms Lane. when mum went and got that house.

20:56Naz Shah: Got that house. How did she get this house?

20:59Gyles Brandreth: Oh, God, I wish I could turn the clock back. She got that house because she wanted to, it was 1980, Thatcher years, own your own home. So mum decided to sell her jewellery and put a deposit down to get her house.

21:11Naz Shah: Gosh, this is family things that she'd been given by her own parents.

21:14Gyles Brandreth: Yes.

21:15Naz Shah: Who may have belonged to her grandmother, as it were. They might well have done, yes. So she sold this to be able to afford to buy a house.

21:22Gyles Brandreth: so she bought your she bought her own home she did but she couldn't get a mortgage so she the neighbor's nephew who was a who owned a cash and carry local cash and carry he then said he'd put the get the mortgage and she'd have to make the repayment so she got the mortgage in his name

21:41Naz Shah: oh the sounds of it could be leading somewhere we don't want it to lead to yes she gets a mortgage in somebody else's name yes but she's provided the initial money by selling her jewelry she's

21:51Gyles Brandreth: got a home she's got an address she's got a home 251 legroom's lane and you have your own room there um no we had one room we slept in one room that was the story ever since we left because we could never afford to heat the other rooms so we had a small and it wasn't even the larger bedroom it was a smaller bedroom on the back side of the house and it had two double beds in it so my mum

22:11Naz Shah: and my brother shared and me and my sister shared and did she get divorced what happens when somebody leaves you?

22:18Gyles Brandreth: I don't think he divorced her for a while to be honest.

22:20Naz Shah: Is she moving into the world? Is she getting work?

22:23Gyles Brandreth: She is. So she looked after disabled children. So there was a scheme called Give Mum a Break and it used to give respite to parents. So she used to do and it didn't affect her benefits. So she'd get two free children. So she'd get an extra£15. If she got two shifts, she'd get another£30. And then she got a job at a doctor's surgery cleaning. So she used to earn money wherever she could. And did you help her to learn English? Yes, she did start learning English. Very broken English at that point. Very broken, but enough to get her by. And were you helping her? Yes, I had to become a little soldier.

22:59Gyles Brandreth: I had to become, at that point, you know, the earlier question you asked me, when did you, when you had to feel you had to help her? At that point, when you know your mum can't speak English, you become a little translator. So at six, seven years old, I became her translator, going into social security benefits, offices, you know, wherever we needed to be i was her little translator and because she'd been abandoned

23:19Naz Shah: by her husband did she feel she could form relationships with other men would that have

23:24Gyles Brandreth: been a possibility oh no that's not on it that's not a thing in our culture you don't perform you don't have relationships you're still bound by the the cords of is that which is you know a woman is measured through her um you know you you can't be promiscuous you can't be you can't be having relationships you've got three children to raise and you've got to be you know you've got to toe the line and she did well because you said she was quite an outgoing and rebellious spirit in some ways so she was very so here's where it gets tricky jiles if you've got so my mum when she met and the detail which is painful is the day he took her to legroom's lane so this house is in her name the day he took her to legroom's lane was the first day he raped her forgive me who is this

24:09Naz Shah: person this is the businessman who was offering to help her yes but he actually rapes her so

24:17Gyles Brandreth: imagine a 23 year old with three children one baby four year old and a seven year old and he's the neighbor's nephew yes and you have a woman who's destitute who doesn't know the language and he turned up asm asm his name was asm mohammed asm and then he raped her and that continued the cycle of abuse continued for years did he move into the house or did he just no he was a married man respectable married man who owned a owned a cash and carry turned out he got convicted for drug trafficking he went to prison and when did you discover that this was happening to your mother not at the time oh god no not till 1990s my mum kept a lid on it it's not something you talk about it's not something of course it was her sexual exploitation if you look at it In today's lens, with what I know now, that was sexual exploitation.

25:10Gyles Brandreth: Of course. It was a vulnerable 23-year-old with three children, single parent, living on her own in squalid conditions. She was very, very vulnerable.

25:18Naz Shah: And he had taken out the mortgage in her name? In his name. In his name, but she was paying for it. She was paying for it. My goodness.

25:27Gyles Brandreth: So he now had a, you know, he had that hold over her.

25:31Naz Shah: Before we come back to you, how does that story end?

25:34Gyles Brandreth: That story ends after years of abuse she snapped. In the meantime he had designs on me. She sent me to Pakistan at the age of 12 back into the village.

25:46Naz Shah: Because she feared he might have designs on.

25:47Gyles Brandreth: She feared that he might have his, yes.

25:48Naz Shah: So really she was trying to rescue, save you from this horror.

25:51Gyles Brandreth: So to save me, to protect me she sent me to Pakistan for two and a half years.

25:55Naz Shah: Forgive me for interrupting. Speaking of the culture, did she not have any brothers or her father who was your grandfather or male relatives to whom she could say this and who could try and deal with this man?

26:08Gyles Brandreth: Well, A, you can't talk about things like this because, and she'd gone, her brothers had told her to give up her children when my father left. My mother refused. And because she refused, they said, you've made your bed, you lie in it. And if she's been sexually abused, even today, if a woman is raped, how often does women confide in other people that she was raped? We don't. And this is now, we're talking, 45 years later 45 years later we still have women who are sexually assaulted sexually abused who do not talk about it who do not talk about it will not tell people that this is what happened to them so she's enduring all this she's enduring and she sends you to pakistan because she's fearful

26:49Naz Shah: of what azam might be might have his eyes on you next she gets you out of the country she

26:56Gyles Brandreth: sends you back to her family to her family in rural village in pakistan and what is that like

27:01Naz Shah: for you? What's your first memory of Pakistan?

27:04Gyles Brandreth: My first memory of Pakistan is I was on a bus, there was lots of noise, the buses jingle, they have these melodies, you know, whilst they're going around the bends of these mountains, and it's so mountainous. And because I was like a little celebrity in that bus, because I was this little 12 year old, who and I can speak, you know, I was really talkative, I was intrigued, I was fascinated. And you had people on the bus who might be carrying hens or might be carrying even a billy goat and you had people on the rafters of this bus and my uncle was the bus driver so we went on my uncle's bus so I got to sit right at the front and that was a privileged position I didn't understand it at the time but I reflect back on it and I was talking and asking questions how far and my uncle would say that mountain over there and then we'd pass that mountain and then there'd be another mountain no that mountain over there so that's what I remember and the mountainous and the weather and it was warm and it was yeah it was september so it was slightly humid um but yeah i remember the humidity i remember the

28:04Naz Shah: had you been happy to be sent there when when the news was broken to you by your mother well at the time i thought i was only going for a holiday oh i didn't know it was going to turn into two years

28:13Gyles Brandreth: and four months five months yeah i didn't know i was going to come back a married woman at 15

28:19Naz Shah: extraordinary or a married girl the early days there are quite good in pakistan oh yes i was

28:24Gyles Brandreth: excited we had chickens we had hens we had buffalo we had a donkey we had dog you know we had it was brilliant imagine you know goats running around and you know you've got these little when that when they chickens when they had baby chicks right you had to isolate the mother because you couldn't pick up a little chick right because the mother would attack you so you'd put the hen into a basket try and lure her in with some seeds and then you'd have these little little baby chickens that you could hold and it was it was every it was a dream it was like living on a farm

28:56Naz Shah: that's what it was like to begin with and when was the day can you remember the day when it began to go wrong when somebody said to you we have a husband in mind for you oh i can remember that

29:06Gyles Brandreth: like it's like in technical well i was out yeah so i was out so i used to take the dog for a walk we had a lovely dog and i went out and i'd play with the boys because i'd been raised like a little tomboy because my my dad had there were nine brothers and I was the eldest of the eldest son's daughter so all the all the guys my my youngest uncles were very not very you know much much older than me so I was you know the cousins the boys I was like a little tomboy and I liked that you know I liked playing with them you know I liked the the going out with the boys and taking the dog for a walk and then my cousin once pulled me up and she said to me I was only literally 13, 14 at the time and she said to me, she went, you need to stop doing that and I said, why?

29:50Gyles Brandreth: She went, you're going to be marrying him and that was it you know, it was just

29:58Gyles Brandreth: it's like you're it's like you know of a take of a movie when you just stop and you just kind of like

30:02Naz Shah: and it was one of these boys who was either a cousin or an uncle of yours a cousin, first cousin

30:08Gyles Brandreth: my mum's brother's son

30:11Naz Shah: and their health risks apart from anything else than that, but anyway we don't need to discuss that now so you suddenly thought what did you think i mean you say the

30:22Gyles Brandreth: shutters closed gosh it is you should just come down and your childhood is gone because you've never had to think about things that adults talk about adults do marriage at the age of 14 it's not something you comprehend i'm out playing i'm taking the dog for a walk it's i'm playing i'm a child

30:41Naz Shah: At that stage, was a legal marriage possible, or would it have been an engagement leading to a marriage?

30:47Gyles Brandreth: So from an Islamic perspective, having a nikah at 15 is you are married, because that is a legal definition of a marriage. From a British perspective, I had to be 16. So I had to go back when I was 16 to actually have a proper... So we re-registered the nikah when I was 16.

31:08Naz Shah: Forgive me, this actually then happened?

31:10Gyles Brandreth: Yes, 15.

31:10Naz Shah: This boy, and how old was he?

31:12Gyles Brandreth: He was two years older than me, so he was 17 at the time.

31:15Naz Shah: And what was his name?

31:16Gyles Brandreth: Mother.

31:18Naz Shah: And what did you, when you were playing with him, walking the dog with him, what did you make of him then, before?

31:23Gyles Brandreth: He was just a cousin. He was just one of the lads, one of the guys who lived in the same, we shared a courtyard, one side was his family, his dad's house, and I lived on this side with my auntie and my grandma and granddad.

31:34Naz Shah: And did he want to marry you?

31:37Gyles Brandreth: At the time, I think he did, yeah. but that was you know the the maturity in men of that that in a conservative village is much more different the way you look at life is much more different the lens with which you look at life is much more different so it's an expectation whereas for me it was never an expectation

31:57Naz Shah: until that point because you've been brought up in britain yeah you just thought i'm a 14 year old yeah absolutely he thought i've been brought up in pakistan i'm 16 if i my family say i'm to marry I'm to marry yes so he just took it on board absolutely and you did get married I did at 15

32:12Gyles Brandreth: and can you remember the wedding day oh the nikah yes the only thing I remember it for is the hideous makeup they called a girl in and I looked like Aunt Sally from Wurzel Gummidge is the only way I can describe it so you can imagine blobs of blusher and dark green eyeshadow but covering in the whole of my late and bright lipstick. So yes, I remember it very... There was no mascara. There was no blending. There was nothing that we'd be doing today.

32:44Naz Shah: And how many people came to this wedding?

32:45Gyles Brandreth: It wasn't. It was a nikah. It was just a family affair. It was just my uncle, my auntie. It's not like a Bollywood movie. Oh, no, no, no. That came the year after.

32:53Naz Shah: So the nikah is like the... It's like a betrothal ceremony.

32:57Gyles Brandreth: Yes. So it's like some would... In today's day and age, a nikah, some would say... Islamically, it is an actual marriage. But it's treated like an engagement at times, yeah.

33:08Naz Shah: So you went home to sleep with your parents. Each of you went back to your family homes.

33:12Gyles Brandreth: Yes, unless you gave your daughter away. So I wasn't given to him. I had any garden with him, so I was technically married. So I was married, so I couldn't get out of it. If I wanted to get out of it, it would be a proper divorce. It would need a proper divorce.

33:26Naz Shah: And did you get to know him at this stage at all? Did you spend time with him?

33:29Gyles Brandreth: Well, I spent time with him two and a half years in the same house. You know, he was in the other side of the courtyard.

33:34Naz Shah: we were in one side of a courtyard and did you get on did you try to get on well you don't really

33:39Gyles Brandreth: have a choice because you're is your cousin and you're going to marry him and you you know you

33:44Naz Shah: get on i say did you have a did you try did you resist it from the beginning is what i'm saying

33:49Gyles Brandreth: i don't i didn't resist it because and the reason i didn't resist it i was told my mom wanted it for me so i would always do what my mom said after what you know my mom had but to me i was told very very clearly Giles the way my cousin put it to me was if I did not marry your mother had lost her other two brothers because she chose you children if you do not accept this marriage you will be separating your mother from the only brother she's got left you will be separating their graves even in death I was 15.

34:24Naz Shah: Did she come over for the ceremony?

34:27Gyles Brandreth: No not for the nicar no She came over the next year when I had to go back to get the actual nikah for the purposes of bringing my husband to the UK with me for the spousal visa. So I had to have a marriage when I was 16. The law now is 18, but at that time it was 16.

34:43Naz Shah: So you went back age 16 to actually get married? Yes. When you came back to England, did you go back to school?

34:48Gyles Brandreth: No, I went into packing nappies in a factory. So you know you get big branded nappies that have got maybe something wrong with them. people buy them and they repackage them put their maybe for stickers not working and you pack them into packs of 50 and you sell them in local cash and carries etc so i was packing them and i remember my first wage it was on faunton road my first first wage was nine pound something because it was a piece rate every packet you packed was 25p so you come back to england return to

35:18Naz Shah: bradford knowing that you've got to go back to pakistan eventually to claim your husband and bring him over to England. Do you discuss any of this with your mother?

35:28Gyles Brandreth: We discussed it at one point and she said to me why did you do it and then then it became apparent that she didn't agree to it she didn't want me to but she did it thinking that I wanted it and I did it thinking that she wanted it because we only got a three minute phone call in Pakistan you only got three minutes on the phone and that phone got passed around by whoever was there and it was in another house so you had to climb over go out onto the street into another garden over the roof down the other side to where the phone was and at that point you have three minutes to talk 30 seconds have already gone because the shout goes over the rooftop saying there's a phone call for you by time you get you've got two and a half minutes i'm the fastest there because i'm the quickest and youngest but by time i've had 30 seconds 40 seconds on the phone my aunt is there my grandparent my grandmother is there and they take the phone and you know have it's three minutes is a conversation and you've literally got two minutes and 30 seconds so it's it's not a long

36:23Naz Shah: time so you had no choice but to go along with all this no and you go back age 16 for the actual marriage does your mother come for this yes and this is a more what i would think of as a

36:35Gyles Brandreth: a bollywood type wedding i mean it's a celebration yes it wasn't quite bollywood but yes i i can yes it was fancy it was yes so somebody had to get dressed lovely saris and people looking wonderful and yes there was an element of it was a proper wedding and were you happy at all that day and I don't remember being happy because what what overtook that day was my cousin was getting married on the same day so I had to I got married went to my in-law's house which was literally in the other side of a courtyard and did all the traditional things after a bride you welcome a bride home and then I came got changed and came back to the wedding when I look at back at it and I think it was bizarre but I came back to take part in my cousin's wedding the same day so I only stayed in my own wedding outfit for perhaps maybe an hour well it was a job a lot of weddings that day yes and yours took about an hour you in the wedding outfit and you you got married you made

37:32Naz Shah: the vows whatever and then you go do you then sleep with the person you've just married how

37:37Gyles Brandreth: so you yeah so I went away with my cousin so because she was going an hour and a half two hours away I I accompanied her to her new home so it wasn't yet the the consummation of my wedding certainly didn't happen that day.

37:50Naz Shah: When did it happen?

37:51Gyles Brandreth: Oh, when we came back from quarterly. That's what happened.

37:53Naz Shah: But still in Pakistan?

37:55Gyles Brandreth: Still in Pakistan.

37:56Naz Shah: And was that ghastly?

37:59Gyles Brandreth: Oh, God, Charles, we didn't talk about sex them days. We didn't talk about, you know, it was just...

38:03Naz Shah: But it was happening.

38:04Gyles Brandreth: It was happening. In retrospect.

38:06Naz Shah: Yeah. What is your recollection of that experience, what I'm saying?

38:09Gyles Brandreth: My recollection was it was done out of fear. It wasn't something we talked about. It's still a very taboo subject to talk about sex. and my recollection of it is it was something that was you know seen as a dirty thing it was just a thing you had to do there was no concept of you know when you when you're in you know the concept what I understand today is two people meet they want to be together they get married they have you know a relationship that wasn't the case that wasn't that wasn't my radar of understanding at all it was something that I had to do because it was a done thing it wasn't

38:47Naz Shah: anything else and he had to do it too I mean that's it was that was his way of life as well

38:52Gyles Brandreth: he was just I think there's an expectation on both parts because by this time I was 16 he was 18 so he was a he was what I would call it a bit more of an adult by then but yeah did you form a friendship with him was there a relationship of some sort it was I don't think we ever did we didn't do things together we didn't do you know what married couples do you know go out together or do things together or travel together. You know, I was a wife, but I didn't know the... It was just something you got on with and you didn't think about it. You genuinely didn't think about it. And did you then bring him back to England with you?

39:32Gyles Brandreth: Well, no. I came back and I got a job in... I started washing NHS laundry in the NHS laundrette on Usher Street. And I worked there because I had to be earning money to bring a spouse over. So I then submitted my application to get his visa for him to come to England.

39:51Naz Shah: And you never thought you were too young to think it. I don't, I could not do this and he could never come and I could escape all this.

39:59Gyles Brandreth: No, what I did think was that sometimes it took eight, nine years for somebody to get a visa. And I was just hoping that it would take eight, nine years for him to get his visa. I had this really, really, the idea that he wouldn't get his visa. And guess what? My luck. He got it first time. first interview went full and they gave him the visa so how quickly was he over he was over i

40:22Naz Shah: think it was within a year he was here yeah and while he wasn't over did you do you ever meet

40:28Gyles Brandreth: other boys were you oh god we're not allowed to do that your framing is not boyfriends it's just about you're married you get on with it simple as it's just i was only asking because you are

40:37Naz Shah: going out to work you're doing the nhs laundrette so you will be seeing other people including men of your own age yeah but but your your blinkered this is what you've got to do you

40:48Gyles Brandreth: just get on with it absolutely you've got a very very clear path of what you've got to do you've got to work you've got to get your age slips to put an application in you've got to go home it's just the way of life you're never thinking outside of that so while you're accepting this

41:02Naz Shah: way of life your mother is still at home and she is still being abused raped on a regular basis by this businessman who has the deeds to her property in his name but she is paying the rent yeah and

41:17Gyles Brandreth: she snaps and what does she do she poisoned him with arsenic and he died he died a um this was the and his body was exhumed and she was sent to prison she was found guilty she was sent to prison with a tariff of 20 years oh my

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43:16Naz Shah: And did you know anything of this at the time?

43:19Gyles Brandreth: No, to me, it was just, I was, I was very, very clear because, so when he came to the house and the fateful meal that he had, that killed him. I'd cooked for meat the night before. So when the police came, they arrested me. They arrested my mum. And to me, it was a complete, complete, you've got this wrong, because I was grieving him. To me, he was uncle. He was a nice guy. He, you know, he gave his affection. He was kind of, I didn't see him in that way at all.

43:49Naz Shah: He'd enabled your mother to have a home.

43:51Gyles Brandreth: So you thought. So I didn't think of him in a bad way at all. Not at that point. Has your husband by then arrived? Oh, he'd arrived. And were you living in your mother's house? Yes, we were still, we were living in 251 Legrands Lane.

44:04Naz Shah: And your mother knows that this, her man is coming round. She's like, I can't take it anymore. I'm going to get rid of him. Well, unless she gets the arsenic, I don't know.

44:13Gyles Brandreth: So she got it as a, we didn't know, I don't think she knew it was called arsenic. She got it as a, as something that would reduce his libido at the time. it was something to help you know stop him from sexually abusing her that's what she her

44:28Naz Shah: understanding was at the time and her intention was not to kill him no what she by the time she

44:33Gyles Brandreth: so she gave it to him before to um to weaken him if you like and then by the time she gave it to him that the dose what she the fatal dose she didn't care whether he lived or died by that time

44:45Naz Shah: but i can see so her motive was this man's attacking me assaulting me if i give him this it will as it were drug him and prevent him from being able to yeah uh god when were you in the house when he died and he went away i mean he had the meal yes that you had partially prepared helped prepare yes she put the poison in how did you make sure that you didn't eat someone she

45:07Gyles Brandreth: we actually did so she she put it in either it was a sweet dish gajrela or samosas i cooked the meat curry and when when she she was not she was not it wasn't an act of cunning it wasn't an act of because i got poisoned so i became ill so he had gastroenteritis he was really really sick and then he went home and he was really sick and when he was sick at home and his wife kept the vomit and told the coroner that she had concerns because his diagnosis was that he died of gastroenteritis had his wife known about his behavior i think it was his uh it's hard not to if you're you know if you're in a house and you're going to visit somebody then it's pretty obvious that there's something what's going on yes it was an assumption on my part that there was something

45:56Naz Shah: going on but i didn't quite know what so the first you heard was really when the police turned up

46:01Gyles Brandreth: yes and you must have been horrified terrified i wasn't terrified because i was thinking obviously just they've just got this wrong you know I I loved you know one of the things I used to love watching Columbo and I used to love watching what was it Murder She Wrote and you know I loved watching those kind of things right so when you always get the right person so to me it was just like they've got this wrong you know she's innocent there's nothing how can they even think this oh it's all right it's fine British justice is the best you know so that's where my thinking was i was you know i was only 18 at the time but my thinking wasn't uh you know this is this is this is actually this is my mum's got anything to do with this so she was put on trial did you go to the trial so i was a witness in the trial and about the last meal etc my mum didn't testify and i was called so i didn't sit in all the trial but i was there for the last when i was

46:57Naz Shah: allowed into the courtroom what was her barristers thinking about not letting her testify

47:01Gyles Brandreth: justify i'm not sure because we didn't have that conversation my mum was claiming her innocence because so i believed my mum there was never ever a question that she was she was going to be found guilty i genuinely and i don't think the lawyers prepared me for it they didn't we never had a conversation that she was going she'd get sent down to prison was her defense that she had actually

47:23Naz Shah: administered this no oh she she claimed total innocence she had total innocence i haven't done

47:28Gyles Brandreth: it and that was it fine never gave the forensics were clear you know forensic evidence of you know what happened was clear and so she was found guilty she was and the guilty was a manslaughter no murder murder yeah she was found guilty of murder and she was sentenced to a 20 year

47:48Naz Shah: life sentence with a 20 year tariff were you in court when that i was i was please describe if you can this is about memories what memory you have of that experience that memory so you had

48:01Gyles Brandreth: so where I was sat the judge was on the left the higher up on the left the jury came in from the back a bit to my right about my one o 'clock where they entered and there was a the two benches there my mum was sat on the right hand side and as they walked in somebody said to me when the jury were walk in if they look at your mum that means they've found her not guilty but if they don't look at your mum that means they found her guilty so I watched every single juror come in every single juror and not one of them looked at her and every juror that walked in you kind of like lost a bit of hope lost a bit of hope lost a bit of hope and then when he announced you know when he was he announced guilty guilty guilty you kind of it's like you know when you think about the movies and how the world the room just spins around you and the rest of it is just a blur and all I could see is my mum.

48:52Gyles Brandreth: I know there was a guard stood next to her because she was stood up and there was a banister in front of her and she just had gripped that banister.

49:06Gyles Brandreth: I've never actually described this, sorry. And she had her mouth on one hand, her hand on her mouth and literally holding her mouth and she was just looking right at me and I was just looking right back at her.

49:24Naz Shah: And when did the judge give the sentence immediately?

49:27Gyles Brandreth: I'm not sure whether he gave it immediately or not.

49:32Naz Shah: But you knew she'd be in prison. I think she did.

49:34Gyles Brandreth: I think he gave her immediately. And then, you know, it was in December. So it was cold, cold, cold day.

49:42Naz Shah: And they take you down to the cell straight away. They take you to prison straight away. Yeah. There's no... But she'd been on remand for a while now.

49:49Gyles Brandreth: You know, she'd been on remand for quite a while.

49:52Naz Shah: And what prison did she go to? What was the principal prison she was in?

49:55Gyles Brandreth: Well, they took her to Durham because she was lifed off. And Durham was stage one, so category A prison. And so she went to Durham, which is about 90 or 9 ,200 miles away from that.

50:10Naz Shah: And do you remember the first visit you paid to her there?

50:13Gyles Brandreth: I remember the first visit in Newhall much more vividly. in Durham it was a bit more so so Newhall prison you went it was in the middle of a countryside it was in Denbydale and you drove through the country and you know it was it was half an hour 45 minutes drive it wasn't too far and there was a single kind of story it wasn't a big imposing building Durham was like a big imposing building so it was a bigger it was an institution it was a proper it was overpowering you know and overwhelming and so when we went there it was very different

50:49Naz Shah: and where are you and your mother now able to talk in a way you'd not been free to talk before

50:53Gyles Brandreth: we talked but it's just not something we did it's not it's not you know so I my daughter's 21 my son's 18 and I've got 14 year old we have conversations you know we sit down and say how do you feel about this how do you know let's do this together let's do that together those weren't the memories that I have, Giles, of my mum. It was just, my life was like, it was like a bit of a treadmill. You just lived for the day. You didn't think about, you went to school, you came home, you know, you didn't have, you didn't have those, you ate together. In the evening, my mum insisted we eat together and we ate out of one plate.

51:33She'd make chapattis and we'd eat, you know,

51:35Gyles Brandreth: if we were, sometimes we'd get meat if we had the money, but otherwise it was dhal and it was, she'd make prate which is like ghee and butter and chapati tastes much nicer so you had you know you had that kind of um that was the family familial stuff that we did who when your mother

51:55Naz Shah: was in prison she had these younger your brother and sister yes who was looking after them i did

52:02Gyles Brandreth: so i was 18 and then my brother and sister fosia was 11 uh um raise who called immy and fos now um he was 13 so yeah so you became a mother to them yes and what was your husband doing um he i'd because in january before my mum got locked up i'd left him so i'd actually left him and how does one leave him well i saved up my money i wanted to go to university i had this ambition jill since i was a kid that i wanted an education and i really wanted an education so when my when I was just before in the January before this happened with Arzem died which was in April I'd saved up money because I because I went on from washing laundrette to Seabrook's crisps right and so I was packing Seabrook's crisps which which was a big step up because I was earning like six pounds an hour then and because at home he was at home I was doing more and more hours so I learned to buffer the floors and clean and, you know, take on extra time.

53:04Gyles Brandreth: And it was only a walk away from the house, the family house on Legram's Lane. So I used to walk there, walk back, and I'd do Saturday morning shifts if I could. And then I saved money and I decided I couldn't do this anymore. How long were you with him? Well, in 1992, we'd gone to Pakistan, I think it was in 1989. So it was about two years. I think it was less than two years, actually. And I decided I wanted out.

53:29Naz Shah: There was no prospect of children?

53:31Gyles Brandreth: Well, I prayed. I went to the doctors and I said to Dr. Abbas, he got rest his soul. I went to the doctors before I went over when I was 16 and I said, I need to go on the pill. And he sat me down and he said to me, I'll never forget his surgery. It was in the back room of a terraced house. In the front room of a terraced house was a waiting room. And he said to me, he said, a life that is going to enter will enter anyway. No amount of pill is going to stop it. so there's no point in taking a pill it'll only not be good for you because it's a drug so i said okay so then i went to pakistan and all i did was every time you know we did the deed if you like or had sex it was like nope god please don't let me get pregnant because i didn't the one thing i was very clear about i didn't want children well god was on your side i'm relieved god's always been on my side god's always like god wow so the day comes when you actually get up and go yes i went to watford to a friend's uh so one of my friends was studying in watford i went to hers she put me up for a few days i rocked up at her place and then i got a room i rented a room in watford and the idea was that i'll get a job i'll save up money and then in september i'll go back to college and get my a-levels did you tell him you were leaving

54:49Naz Shah: no i just left you just weren't there i just left yeah and did you hear from him ever again

54:55Gyles Brandreth: well I my mum I ran because again I was leaving home right and I was leaving home which wasn't like eloping with anybody but it was still a scandal it was still scandalous for a daughter to leave home right and not her parents not know where she was so it was still it was a big ruckus it was you know I'd I'd dishonored the family by leaving so my mum was trying to chase me and find me and then I rang one of my friends and she said look your mum really wants to talk to you she's absolutely beside herself so i rang i spoke before she was in prison yes so i rang her and she said to me well i've sent him away i've sent him to germany she said so come home and i said okay if he's not there i'm coming home so i came back i got on the next coach and i came back and she had sent him to germany no oh no no she'd sent him to my cousin's house oh so he was still in bradford but at least I was free from him at that point until my mom went to prison the power of this

55:55Naz Shah: honor idea is so great so inculcated isn't it it is indeed but you do eventually escape it and I mean we're not here to talk about your marvelous working life how you become a social worker and you know work in the NHS and then you become a parliamentarian and all the rest of it because Because, well, we're focusing on your early memories. You campaigned for your mother's release, though. I did. Because, I mean, she was guilty of something.

56:27Gyles Brandreth: Absolutely. She was guilty.

56:29Naz Shah: So what is the grounds for the campaign?

56:31Gyles Brandreth: So when Pragna went to see my mum, it was very... Pragna Patel, who runs Southall Black Sisters, one of the founding members of that organisation. She went to see my mum, and she knew, it was very clear, that she'd committed the crime. The forensics don't lie in this country, right? But why does a woman at her age with three children kill a man? You just don't kill a man. So she then pieced it together and my mum told her over a number of years. She started visiting her, counselling her and my mum told her this is what was going on and this is what led me to kill him. But by the time I killed him, I didn't care whether he lived or died and that she was driven to do it.

57:14Gyles Brandreth: So Pragnaven broke that to me and my sister, which was a revelation, a revelation because, you know, I'd thought of her as innocent. And then it all fell into place. It was like all of a sudden it became clear, OK, she was driven, now it makes sense. Now it makes sense how her behaviour over the years, what's happened, what hasn't, what was really, really going on. And then we launched a campaign on the basis that it was diminished responsibility because she'd been a victim of abuse for so many years.

57:44Naz Shah: And this was successful, ultimately?

57:45Gyles Brandreth: No, it wasn't. Do you know, Giles, you've got three judges, and I remember saying this, I remember very clearly giving an interview to, I think it was Radio 5 Live at the time, you've got three white judges who are from upper-class backgrounds who are men, and this is in the 1990s, early 90s. We still don't get it right when it comes to women. We still don't have an understanding of what it's like. Like, you know, we talked about earlier, women still don't talk about rape. We still don't talk about sexual abuse. So in them days, you had three white judges who just dismissed her and said she was incapable of belief because she had the opportunity to tell the truth.

58:23Gyles Brandreth: Not understanding the concept of the pressures of a woman in any society. If right now we still don't talk about rape, then imagine in the 1990s and a woman from a different culture, a more conservative culture, that concept of Izzet is your parameters within which you behave, then you're definitely not going to talk about sexual abuse. and then when you do talk about it because you've been empowered and counseled and you understand what's happening then you're still thinking about the concept of is it because of your children and then your children are having to say to you we don't care we're the ones that are left we are serving this prison sentence with you we lost the house because of which you endured all of this we because we became homeless we've you know we've been through our trials we want you home and then she talks and then she tells her truth and she literally like you know bears her soul or washes a dirty linen in public and then it's dismissed how many years does she serve in all she served 14 years in all and that so we lost the appeal but then we launched a campaign to reduce her tariff and her tariff lord justice bingham was the first person who actually recognised that she was actually driven to kill and accepted that she was driven to kill not that she didn't kill him because in you know she you know there was a family who lost a son a husband a father you know and that is painful that is no doubt painful for that family you know but she was driven to kill she didn't feel that she had another option where is she now she's at she's right now she's at my house so when i'm coming down to london to parliament she looks she said

1:00:11Naz Shah: she stays over at my house and is she in a good place in her head in her life um i don't think

1:00:17Gyles Brandreth: about her head space but i think in her life yes she she's kind of like reliving her lost motherhood through our children so my children my sister's children you know she has the freedom she has you know she can cook what she wants she doesn't have to think about you know in them days we heated one room now the whole house is heated and she can sleep where she wants she can you know she doesn't have to think about putting the radiators up you know and where are you now

1:00:43Naz Shah: you got rid of you left your first husband eventually you get divorced yes eventually and do you are you able to trust a man well i didn't think i was going to ever ever meet somebody

1:00:56Gyles Brandreth: else but i did meet the father of my children we are we are no longer together but we are friends we you know co-parent we have three beautiful children together and lee plays a big role in

1:01:07Naz Shah: my children's life and even in my life yeah and did it change your view of men i have you been overall are you suspicious of men are you wary of them no i'm not i've not let anything i'd like to

1:01:24Gyles Brandreth: think i've not let any of my life experiences stop me from working with others again you don't think about it at the time because you've got so much going on you know you're homeless your mother's in prison you've got two siblings to look after you don't really get time to sit and think you don't really get time to think this is what i've been through because that was my normal chaos was my normal my conditioning was chaos how do you think you coped with it i think um at the time it was flight or fight it was adrenaline adrenaline adrenaline it was going getting through every day. It was never thinking about the future.

1:02:03Gyles Brandreth: There came a time when I joined, I became a Samaritan. That's when my mental health, I became aware of my own mental health. You know, I had two suicide attempts, horrible experiences. And then I had breakdowns where I had the home treatment service come out and support me to get through that. The Samaritans helped. And I think my resilience came from, I didn't have a choice, Giles, because my mum was in prison if I want my second attempt at suicide my mum found out and my mum sat me down in prison when I went to see her at Durham you know she said to me what would happen to me and the kids and that kind of hits you like a ton of bricks because you know it's not just about you there are other people I've got to think about I've got to think about my mum I've got to think about my brother and I've got to think about my sister so if I you know it appeared a little selfish at the time it was like oh well i'd i'd pop my way out of it but what would happen to them you've got to you know pull your boots up get your best base on and get on and you have i have indeed three last

1:03:05Naz Shah: questions a moment in your life please just what first comes into your head of joy my children

1:03:13Gyles Brandreth: god yeah my children yeah they're beautiful absolutely they're my everything they're my world and you manage not to be too protective given yes your background yeah because i've got faith now i'm not the woman i was you know my understanding of faith and culture was mingled and really really mashed up at the time when you say faith do you mean religious faith yeah absolutely my life is my whole resilience now is steeped in my faith and what is your faith my faith i'm a muslim you know I've tried to be the best Muslim I can be and I just think that's why every tragedy or every trial that I've had is a lesson for me now

1:03:54Naz Shah: The joy, a moment of joy, a specific moment from your childhood

1:03:59Gyles Brandreth: A moment of joy from my childhood

1:04:07Gyles Brandreth: I think the moment of joy was probably the, that my dad probably the joy from my childhood was that brown tv and dancing on it and being the apple of my dad's eye i was his you know in our culture they say which means that this person which means a sky above and the world is this and it means this is my world so what they used to say about me was the sky for your dad was a sky but his ground was you you know you were his ground you were his joy that is probably my joyous moment yeah a moment of greatest joy that comes into your head and yet

1:04:50Naz Shah: he left when you were six and what was the end of his story he died 21 years ago 20 years ago now

1:04:58Gyles Brandreth: um yeah he died he had cancer i don't feel anything for him did he marry the girl he ran

1:05:05Naz Shah: off with?

1:05:05Gyles Brandreth: Yes he married he had three children um so he had three boys and they lived very locally but he died he had cancer he was um yeah he died 21 years ago.

1:05:17Naz Shah: And a moment of sadness?

1:05:20Gyles Brandreth: A moment of sadness I think the sadness for me it's bittersweet really a moment of sadness was probably the day I got selected to stand as a parliamentary candidate for Bradford West because I went home and I just hugged my mum and cried.

1:05:39Naz Shah: Explain this to me.

1:05:40Gyles Brandreth: So here you are, a woman who is, the moment of sadness for me is hugging my mum who'd lost all her izzit. She's not got any izzit left.

1:05:51Naz Shah: What do you mean exactly by that? Izzit is honour.

1:05:54Gyles Brandreth: Honour, exactly. Back to the honour. Yes, so it comes back to honour. So you here have a woman who is hollowed by the trials and tribulations of her world. And here her daughter comes home and you imagine being sat on that bed and she's woken up and she's sat upright and you just go and hug her to say, you got the job. Not the election, you haven't won the election, but you've got the job. You've been selected as a candidate for Bradford West. And it's been on the news, so she knows before I've got home. But just to be able to, it's sadness because it's like, The joy that would bring normally would be a joy of achievement.

1:06:36Gyles Brandreth: But the joy here is about honour. And it's still about how much honour I gave her back that day. Do you see where I'm coming from? It's really, really...

1:06:47Naz Shah: I'm going to get weepy now. Absolutely see that. We end now with just one last question. What is this extraordinary story, this remarkable life of yours? And we've only touched the early years. your being this heroic member of parliament your service to the people of Bradford we'll take that as read we haven't got time for it what though has your life taught you that you'd like to share with us with your children because you've had a tough life oh the purpose of life is to live a

1:07:23Gyles Brandreth: life of purpose and those aren't my words they were a young girl who um who wrote who was suffering from cancer and i read it years ago and she'd put on the back of a mirror and she'd written lots of quotes on the mirror and when she died she was only 14 and when she died she literally wrote the words to the purpose of life is to live a life of purpose i shall remember that and i shall

1:07:49Naz Shah: remember our conversation. Naz Shah, thank you so much for joining us on Rosebud.

1:07:53Gyles Brandreth: Thank you, John.

1:07:55Naz Shah: Well, my thanks there to Naz Shah. What an extraordinary story. And if you want to read her account of her life, I do recommend her new book. It's literally out this week in time for International Women's Day on Sunday. It's called Honoured Survival, Strength and My Path to Politics. So that's Naz Shah's book, which I wholeheartedly recommend. And I hope you found that conversation with her as gripping and extraordinary as I did. She's a remarkable individual. Now, we do have marvellous people listening and you get in touch. So if you have any reactions to the conversation with Naz or the one we had earlier in the week with Mary Archer, a different kind of person and from a different political background, but two contrasting but fascinating women.

1:08:44Naz Shah: And if you want to write to us, you know you can. And the address is simply hello at rosebudpodcast.com. Hello at rosebudpodcast.com. Thank you for your emails. We've just heard from Father Jason Murphy. So that suggests to me, Father Jason Murphy, and this is a very proud dad, that he could be a Catholic priest. He writes, Dear Giles and Harriet, In the first week of December 2025, I spent the days on holiday in North Yorkshire with both my parents who are in their 70s now. So he's a relatively young priest. He confirms that. I'm a Catholic priest from a place called Bell Turbot, County Cavan in the Republic of Ireland.

1:09:24Naz Shah: We visited Yorkshire at this time to see Castle Howard and Harwood House and the houses in the Beamish town decorated for Christmas. we attended the Advent service of light and cattle service in York Minster and visited many beautiful churches decorated with Christmas trees we traveled the roads of Yorkshire in a rented car listening over the week to your interviews with the likes of Maureen Lipman Judy Dench Sue Pollard and our very own favorite Pam Ayres each time we took to the roads of North Yorkshire my mother would turn to me to remind me to return to an interview we had left in mid-air or to join in another conversation from the start.

1:10:01Naz Shah: We all spoke of our memories as we travelled along. My own first memory is sitting in a primitive child seat at just 18 months in the back seat of my father's Opel Manta car, travelling the country roads of County Westmeath in Southern Ireland, watching the trees whiz by. The precious conversations had by you and your guests prompt conversations and allow the listeners to enter into the attic of our minds to revisit and share our own first memories. Keep doing what you're doing. You bring great joy to listeners in Yorkshire, Ireland and across the world. For everyone loves a story. Yours sincerely, Father Jason Murphy.

1:10:43Naz Shah: And everyone loves a lovely, generous letter like that. Thank you, Father Jason, for taking the time and trouble to write to us. And thank you, we didn't know when I was going to read this, for choosing one, two, three, four, four of our female episodes to pick, given that we're in the run-up to International Women's Day. We, Harriet and I, we just invite guests we think and hope you will find as interesting as we do. We don't actually try to tick any boxes with the guests, we just think of somebody and say, are you free? I might see if we've invited as many men as women, or as many women as men.

1:11:21Naz Shah: we don't really think about that very much but we've certainly had a lot of women do go to our website rosebudpodcast.co.uk for a complete list of all the episodes not just the big friday ones tuesday ones as well dad is it's all there and you can maybe discover people you haven't thought about or you might not know thelma ruby i think is one of the most interesting and impressive women we have interviewed now this month she will be 101 years of age she was the first interview of this year 2026 what an extraordinary story and she has led an international life working in africa in israel in new york in london yay listen to her this sunday on rosebud or if you're a member of the rosebud family there will be a special episode for rosebud family members this Sunday and every Sunday.

1:12:20Naz Shah: If you want to join the club, you simply go to www.patreon.com forward slash Rosebud and sign up there. But anyway, my thanks to Nash Shah, my thanks to you. Buy her book and be with us next time for another episode of Rosebud. Thanks for your company. Cue the goodbye music. She'll be played by a woman this week. Is it being played by a woman? oh oh oh this is the week harriet instructions to harriet please from me i know i can't give her instructions we are equal partners suggestion to harriet please at grosvenor house there are two people who play the piano quite deliciously in the park room one of them she plays on mondays is a brilliant female pianist i think she has recorded a version of our theme tune we're going out today with music played by Grosvenor House's female pianist.

1:13:18Naz Shah: It's Sarah at the Keys. Take it away. Cue that music with a feminine touch.

1:13:46Thank you.

1:14:28Naz Shah: Rosebud is a Plain Jane production produced by Harriet Jane hosted by me, Giles Brandreth with music by Phil Leppard and recorded this week at the JW Marriott Grosvenor House in London's Park Lane. Room service. Youth mental health is a complex challenge that requires comprehensive solutions. We must strengthen after-school programs. We must make digital literacy tools available in our schools. We must work with mental health professionals to support children. And we must empower mentors, educators, and parents to keep kids happy. Learn more about our commitment to finding lasting solutions at empowerourfuturecoalition.com slash solutions.

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