Piers Morgan

0:00Hello, my name is Giles Brandreth and I'm delighted to be introducing another edition of what some people are calling the best podcast in the world. Well, two of those people are Harriet, my producer, and me. It's Rosebud. I hope you enjoy it. Cue the music.

0:40I'm speaking in a hushed voice because I'm in a very quiet room next door to quite a noisy room. I'm in the green room at the Bridlington Spa. This is in the beautiful seaside resort town of Bridlington in East Yorkshire, where I come every year at about this time of year to be part of something called the Bridlington Business Day, celebrating East Yorkshire and all that it has to offer. I had such fun at the Bridgington Business Day last year when our special guest was Bjorn Ulvers, founder and member of ABBA. It really was a remarkable episode. I wonder who the organisers of the Bridgington Business Day have conjured up for me this year.

1:21Who have they brought to the Bridgington Spa? They're clever guys, Stephen Parnaby and Mark Lonsdale. They'd have found somebody quite interesting. I'll tell you who it is. It's somebody very interesting. It's none other than Piers Morgan, journalist, broadcaster, controversialist. Is he or is he not a friend of Meghan Markle? He certainly talks about her quite a bit. Is he or is he not a friend of Donald Trump? He certainly met him quite a few times. This is a journalist with a record and a reputation. Over the years, we've bumped into one another. I think we had a little tension between us when I was a member of Parliament in the 1990s and he was the editor of the News of the World and I remember they were going to run a story that wasn't true and I phoned him up and I said it isn't true he said if it isn't true we won't be running it but if it is true we will they didn't run it but I was advised by my lawyer they said if you're speaking to Piers Morgan make sure you've got a tape recorder in your hand so in case we need to use your conversation with him in evidence at a later date.

2:26Well, today, Harriet Jane, our producer, has the tape recorder in her hand, and she will be recording my conversation with Piers Morgan at the Brittington Spa. We'll be in front of a crowd, great crowd. The best of East Yorkshire will be here, and they may have some questions for Piers as well. But if you want hot gossip, if you want to know about journalism in our time, if you want a bit of football, a bit of scandal, and a lot of fun, enjoy this episode of Rosebud with Piers Morgan. Uncensored.

3:07You were born on the 30th of March, 1965. What, Piers Morgan, is your very first memory? Well, I know the first memory about me is probably more interesting because the staff at this, it was a nursing home in Guildford in Surrey and the staff on day two took me back to my mother only it wasn't me. And my mother said, where's my baby? And I had disappeared. And it turned out I'd been sent to another mother who hadn't noticed and that other mother was breastfeeding me. and as my army brother put it in my 50th birthday speech he said typical of my brother's jammy luck in life he is two days old and he already has another woman's breast in his mouth so that was a true story yeah amazing yeah amazing story so I got wrestled away from the teat and taken back to my mother who was horrified but yeah and who was your mother who's my mom She's still alive?

4:18Oh yeah, very much so, yeah. And what is her name? Gabrielle. And who was your father? Because your birth name is different from the name we know you about. Yeah, my father died when I was very young. I was one, back in the 60s. And what was his name? Vincent O'Mara. So he was from, Eamon Vincent O'Mara. He was from Galway in Ireland. I got a lot of Irish relatives. He died when I was very young. And then I was very fortunate because my mum met my stepdad. It's my dad, Glyn, who's a Welshman, who came along and took on my mum and two kids. But just before you leave your dad, your mum, what was she when you were born?

4:52What was she doing for a living? She was a dental assistant in a dental surgery. My father was a dentist. Ah. Yeah, so that's how he met. They were happily married. Yeah. And did he have an illness or a car? Yeah, he just had a condition which would be quite easily treated now. It was very sad. And I've got no memory of him at all. Do you have photographs of him? Yeah, I have photographs, yeah. I mean, you obviously think of your stepdad as your dad. Very much so, yeah. But do you feel rather like adopted children? after a while they decide, I'd actually quite like to know about my birth parents.

5:20Well, I know plenty about him. I just never, I have no memory at all. So it's not something I can look back and say I carry any sort of emotional scar about, because I don't. And I definitely feel with my dad that to come along in his mid-twenties like he did and pick up my mum and two young boys who were not his and make us his, I thought was a pretty amazing thing. And again, as I've got older and had kids, myself, you realise the enormity of what that involved. And what was his name? My dad, as we call your dad now. He's still going strong. Good, well done him. They both have birthdays, my mum's actually birthday next Sunday, we're all going down.

6:00My dad had his party last week, they're doing well. Well done and they're together and they're still happy after all these years. Yeah I actually had a funny moment because they've been through a lot my parents as you can imagine. Well, having you as a son. Yeah. Some good. I remember winning Celebrity Apprentice in America and my mum flew over. She hates flying. And she flew over and was standing with me and Donald Trump and Ivanka Trump talking about, because Trump was the host, obviously. And my mum, it was just a surreal thing. You imagine your mum in New York with Donald Trump. So that was funny.

6:32And then there'd been some not so fun stuff to handle. But one thing they always said to me was, don't ever do the jungle. I'm a celebrity. and I've always remembered this and last week I got a call from ITV could we tempt you to do the jungle and I went there's actually not enough money at ITV to get me to go in that jungle because my parents would disown me that for them was the red line so you won't ever see me munching kangaroo testicles I'm afraid what did your dad do when he married your mum what was his line of business they quickly took over running a pub So both sets of grandparents ran pubs, country pubs.

7:12And they eventually found a pub called the Griffin Inn, a well-known pub in East Sussex in one of the villages there, called Fletching. I grew up in this pub. It was fantastic life. The most egalitarian kind of place is pubs because you'd have the Lord of the Manor and the local chippy and the farmers and everything. And everyone just was in there for the same reason, to have fun and have a few pints and have a laugh. And I remember I was at the local primary school and I came back with a note from the headmistress one day and it's very awkward to my mum and dad. But it appears it started arriving at school smelling of alcohol.

7:49I was six years old. And the reason was I was earning extra money doing the bottling up. So in a pub, if you know pubs, obviously you have all the empties and somebody has to lug the empties down, bring up the new bottles, replace them and in the process of being up and down in the cellar you begin to stink of alcohol. So I had a formal warning for smelling of alcohol aged six. And brothers and sisters, where are you in the pecking order? Yeah, I'm the oldest. My immediate younger brother was an army colonel, retired now, did 37 years in the army, fought in Iraq and Afghanistan and Northern Ireland.

8:24Extremely good soldier. And then my sister, who married an army colonel, and she's very talented, runs her own events business. And then my younger brother, who's been doing a few different jobs, is a great guy. They've all been amazing support to me over the years. We're a very close family. We're a massive family. And when my mum's mum, my grandmother, was the great matriarch of the family, when she had her 90th birthday, we got everyone just on her side into one marquee. It was 104 people. So that's just on my mum's side. So we're a gigantic family. And we all get on great. I'm the least opinionated member of my entire family.

9:00And everyone always laughs. I'm like, you ever met my family yet? When they get going, when my brother, the army brother and my sister, and once they get going, wow. So if you ever want to see really uncensored stuff. And what have you learned? What have you got in you today that you got from your stepdad and your mum? Well, I just think, A, hard work. They ran a country pub where they were working seven days a week. They were doing all the cooking, very few staff. They were doing all the stuff in the pub. So really hard work ethic. And I've tried to instill that in my kids too. I said, if you work hard, things will happen to you.

9:36If you basically coast through life, you're going to always be a little bit unsatisfied, I think. I still work as hard now as I've always done, probably harder, because I enjoy it, because I do a job I love. And that's the other thing, is finding something you really love. And I say to my kids, you know, just find something you love. Then it's not work. You and I don't get up and think, I've got to work today. We get up and think we're going to come to Bricklington to a fabulous theatre, meet fun people, have a laugh, and then someone gives us a nice little check. They say, happy days. And in fact, my driver just told me he's bought me some Briddlington Rock.

10:10So I just think that was definitely one. I think, secondly, you've got to have the unconditional support of at least one parent. I had it from both of mine, but I always think when I've interviewed thousands of people, as you have, Giles, and I think the common theme was if somebody had the unconditional love and support of at least one parent, didn't always need to be two, then they could go forever. My mum gave me a brilliant postcard when I was young. I've still got it on my desk in my office and it just has a hippopotamus flying with a flock of seagulls and the headline, ambition knows no bounds.

10:44And I love that mantra. I don't see why any of us should feel inferior to anybody in the world. You might all have an amazing talent you just haven't uncovered yet. And it's uncovering what you're really good at and then being passionate about that then work doesn't seem like work, then life becomes a lot more fun. And I have been so lucky in all the stuff I've done. Ultimately, I've had a great time. And at school, what were your ambitions when you were a small boy? I used to read the Daily Mail when I was seven years old. Good grief. Which may explain everything. But I used to read out headlines to my mum and say, what about this story?

11:24I was obsessed with news, even then. Was there any heritage of that in your family? Yeah, my mum's dad actually was an investigative journalist. used to do a lot of work with Lord Longford. Remember Lord Longford? I knew Lord Longford well. I went on his pornography commission. Well, so my grandfather operated... This was a lovely man. He was a Labour peer. He'd been inclement at his government after the Second World War. He was later in Harold Wilson's government. And he got into his head that pornography was an evil. We'd now probably all agree with him. But he set up this commission that was much mocked in his day and he became known as Lord Paul.

11:56Yeah. Well, my grandfather was one of the investigators for him under the pseudonym of Major X, because he'd been a major in the army. And so, yeah, he was one of Lord Longford's investigators. Oh, well, we went to... You probably knew him. Yes. Yeah. We hired raincoats to... It's all getting very deep, mate. Visit shops in Soho. And we went over to Copenhagen to reap the alien porn. You were probably with my grandfather. I'm sure I was. This is hilarious. It could be that I am your grandfather.

12:32But what was amazing is when we got to Copenhagen, the British ambassador was there, and he gave us each five pounds to go and take advantage of the local sex clubs as part of our research. I think I should take over the interview here, don't you? I want to know a bit more about you and these sex clubs, Giles. Anyway, so that was your grandfather. So you, as a kid, thought, I like this, I'm fascinated by it. I just was obsessed with, I was quite nosy. I wanted to know what was happening in the world. and I became obsessed with newspapers and news. I loved the feel of them, the smell of them. I loved reading the stuff.

13:07And then that was all I wanted to do. And I actually spent a year at Lloyd's of London, the insurance market, because a friend of mine was working there. One of his colleagues broke a leg, couldn't do it. I stepped in, and I found it just so incredibly boring. But it cemented in me that belief. You've got to chase your dream and your passion. You've got to be that hippopotamus flying with the seagull. So I then went to journalism college. But hold on, before you... Your secondary school, what were you... Well, I went to a prep school until I was 13. Then I went to a state school. And that was a boarding school, was it?

13:37It was a weekly boarder. And then I went to a... And were you lonely there? Were you happy there? No, I loved it. Absolutely loved it. I had a brilliant education. The prep school was brilliant. I think I ended up full boarding at the end. But the prep school was brilliant. And the state schools I went to were brilliant too. So I went to Chaley Comprehensive, Lewis Priory, another comprehensive, sixth form. and the common theme is there were good teachers and crap teachers in both and there were good people and crap people and I think you either come out of a mixed education like that with a chip on both shoulders or no chip at all I think one of the reasons I've been able to interview anybody whether it's Nelson Mandela or President Clinton or Oprah Winfrey or somebody on Good Morning Britain who's just been through some extraordinary thing but he's unheard of whatever it was, I just felt like to me they're just another human being I'm sure it's because I had the two educations.

14:29We never wanted for anything as kids, but we never had much privilege as kids. So I think that was the key. So we always had that hunger. Because the other thing I think, I was interviewing Cristiano Ronaldo recently, and he was talking about his son, who's a brilliant young footballer, Cristiano Junior, who's now playing for Portugal, just scored a couple of goals for them. And he said the one thing he can't give him is the actual hunger that he had, Cristiano, when he was young. Because he was genuinely hungry, because his family had no money. His dad had died when he was very young from experiences that he had in the war.

15:00And he was so hungry, he used to queue up on the back of a McDonald's near the Sporting Lisbon Training Academy to get scraps of burgers from some kindly ladies who worked in there. And obviously his son's never going to have that. He's a private chef in the home for whatever he wants. Now he's turned out to be a brilliant footballer and Christiana's instilled in him the need to be hungry for success and to score goals or whatever. but the one thing he can never give him is actual hunger. And a lot of the great sportsmen, as you know, Ever, they're driven by actual hunger. What were you driven by then when you were a teenager before you leave school, before you go to journalism college?

15:37Well, this will sound awful, but I used to practice my autograph a lot. So my mum still has these books which she produces, which my siblings scorn me over. And it's just endless best wishes, Piers Morgan. And I was just training. But I used to go, it's funny, I used to go and watch the cricket at Sussex with my army brother. And we used to collect autographs. And we can remember to this day the ones who didn't sign for us. That's why if anyone ever asked me for a picture, an autograph or whatever, I'll always stop and do it, always. Because I remember the scars. I won't name them, but they know who they are.

16:11I'll find them. But it's, yeah, I think I was attracted to being in the public limelight. It seemed very exciting to me. I liked the whole fame thing. and I used to love watching the Oscars, I used to love watching the big fights, Muhammad Ali and all that. I just loved all that stuff. And to actually then be able to get into a career where I was then around all these people was fantastic. Were you liked as a boy? Was it a boy school, girl school, mixed? It was the worst of girls at prep school, not many, there were a few, and then the state school was completely mixed. I think I was pretty, I think I was probably like I am now.

16:44People either loved me or wanted to kill me. They either thought I was really funny and charming or incredibly irritating. So there was no real middle ground. Not many people went around going, I don't really know what to think about him. So I think I was often being thrown out of my local pub for being too opinionated on a Friday night. You'll be stunned to hear. So I'd have a load of, you know, high and pumped Harvey's and then get a little bit too garrulous about what was happening. Were you naughty in your teens? Did you... Not really. I mean, I did some stuff which my mum still doesn't know about and I intend to keep it that way, Giles.

17:18I was never that bad. never that bad I used to teeter on the brink you know Top Gun the movie when they're always hovering around the hard deck and eventually they go below it and all sorts of trouble happens I used to try and hover around the hard deck and you never really descended to the depths your first kiss your first romance oh my god Kyle dare you invade my privacy like this well no I used to work for the Daily Mirror

17:48can I remember my first kiss I'm not sure I can I'm certainly sure I won't tell you if I can I can't remember actually it's not weird you probably should remember she obviously probably does was that important to you was romance important to you girls were definitely I lived in a village where there was nothing much to do It wasn't like today when you've got mobile phones and you could, you know, Ubers to take you everywhere. In those days, you just hung around the village, really. And we had four pubs and then a curry house in our village and a cricket pitch, and that was all I needed. Perfectly happy.

18:27So 1 ,500 people, four pubs, basically a pub for every 350, 400 of us. Great life. I mean, I just remember it being very uncomplicated life. You know, it was just, you didn't have any of the weird stuff that goes on with young people's brains now with phones. You know, there's a brilliant book that's come out, Jonathan Haidt, about the impact of smartphones on young brains from 2010 when phones became smart. It's really terrifying, actually, what we've done to young people's brains. You know, it doesn't have bad stuff to adult brains, I think, smartphones. We're all addicted to them. But I think the young people in particular has been a very insidious thing.

19:05So you'd be banning them in schools? Well, I like what Australia's done, which they banned them until 16 now. So no smartphones at all until you're 16. And has that worked in Australia? Yeah, I think they've only brought it in recently, but it seems to me a smart thing to do. I think the trouble with smartphones is they can be very corrosive to people. O-levels? You could take O-levels? I did. I think I got about nine or ten. I could have done a lot better. I wasn't the most industrious person at school. I liked to have fun. My mum tells me about a guy called Tony Freeman, great teacher, history teacher, and the entire parents' evening meeting with Mr.

19:40Freeman, with my mum and dad, went as follows. They sat down and he went, who's your boy? Oh, it's Piers. Ah, your son is a complete and utter buffoon. And with that, he just turned his back. That was my entire parents' evening discussion with my history teacher. But why was he saying that? Because I was a complete and utter buffoon. And in fact, it reminded me, I interviewed Boris Johnson for GQ years, years later. It was a meeting of minds, you can imagine. So I'm in there with old Boris and he's absolute shambles as usual. And I said to Boris, it was like 2008. I think he was about to become London Mayor or just started.

20:22I said, Boris, I've always said to people that beneath the buffoon exterior lies a sharp calculating political mind and that you're going to go right to the top. And he went, really, Pierce, really? He said, well, that's very, very good of you, old chap. He said, but you have to consider the possibility that lurking beneath the buffoon exterior is an actual buffoon. How right were you, Boris?

20:57So you joined, you put in for a journalism school. It was such a thing, was there? Yeah, Harlow Technical College. one of the six places in the country at the time that did the National Council of the Training and Journalists course, the NCTJ. A lot of journalists will have done that. Yeah, I had a great time. There were 56 of us on the course and six of us were male. Wow. It was one hell of a year. But it was great fun. Yeah, I made great friends. We had a great time. I learned all the rudiments of being a journalist, shorthand to 100 words a minute. I can still do that. Journalism, law, all the things you need to be a journalist.

21:32Then I went on to, well, the first paper was Streatham and Tooting News, based in the middle of Tooting Broadway, which was quite a baptism of fire in those days, back in the 80s. But I did it the hard way. I did the hard yards. I did the police calls. I did the, you know, all the stuff. And then I remember I joined the Wimbledon News, and I started interviewing celebrities. I remember interviewing Cliff Richard at the Wimbledon Theatre, and Rowan Atkinson, and Frank Bruno, when he was about to fight to become British champion. And I loved that. And that was the moment really when things went a different way for me as a journalist, where I just loved interviewing big stars.

22:08And the interviews got picked up and repeated in the papers. That was exciting. And I remember thinking then, yeah, this is like the kind of world I wanted to get into, where it's kind of glamorous and it's fun and it's exciting. You're meeting interesting people and they're all at the top of their game, whatever it may be, comedy, sport, entertainment, singing. I loved it. And you then actually became, was it the youngest editor of a national newspaper in several generations? I think I was the youngest ever, I think I still am, the youngest ever editor of a daily paper. So I was 28 when I took over the News of the World, 30 when I took over the Mirror.

22:46I was also the youngest editor ever fired as well. And how were you seen by the News of the World? How did you get that job? Well, I was doing the bizarre column on The Sun, the showbiz column. and I got a call to go and see Rupert Murdoch in Miami. I ended up walking along Miami Beach for three hours with the most powerful media tycoon in the world. But hold on, you're editing a column, which is essentially a gossip column. Yeah. And how do you get the stories for that? Why did they think you were good at that? I think it was actually down to peach brandy. Is this a girl or...? It's my first kiss, no.

23:24Rupert had a dinner party at a hotel in London near his home. And I got invited to it. This was in the end of 1993. And I remember there were about... 2003. No, 1993. Oh, I thought you said 1903. No, not in your time. And I just remember there were about 10 of us, I think, and Rupert was here. And to his left was Kelvin McKenzie, a famous, infamous editor of The Sun, and then everyone, all the other executives in the paper around him. And then me and a guy called Stuart Higgins, who was the deputy editor of The Sun, and then Rupert. and we had a few glasses of wine and Rupert was definitely drinking but Kelvin, crucially, wasn't drinking.

24:03He was having a three-month sabbatical from drinking. So when he came to the end of the meal, the waiter went to him, would you like a liqueur? And Kelvin, not drinking, went, no, I'm good, thank you. So everyone took their lead from their boss, the editor. Oh, no, no, no, no, no liqueurs. They're all massive drinkers. No, no, I'm good, thank you. I don't know, no, no liqueur for me. And he got to me and I was like, I don't even know what I'm doing here. I'm 28 years old. I was 27 at the time. I'm doing the pop column. I've nothing to lose. I said, well, what would you recommend? And he said, well, the peach brandy's good.

24:32I went, I'll have a peach brandy. And Stuart went, oh, yeah, I'll have a peach brandy. And then Rupert went, ah, it's my favourite. Make it three. And he could see all the others going, oh, no, no. It's the peach brandy moment. Now, you might think, well, what was the significance of the peach brandy? And a month later, I was made editor of the News of the World and Stuart was made editor of the Sun. Now, was it as simple as we just had the balls to go for a peach brandy? I don't know. I like to think so. Probably more than that. But actually, if you're Rupert Murdoch looking around, you're thinking, load of sheep running around taking their lead from the boss, not doing what they really want to do.

25:14And these two going, I'll have a peach brandy. And I think the moral of it is, just be the peach brandy person. Just say yes to good stuff, to fun stuff. Don't say no. Don't sit on the fence. Don't be worried about failing. Don't be afraid to take risks. I've done it my entire life. And if it all crashes and burns, and this is not actually dead, which is a bit of a downer, if you're not actually dead, you're fine. You're fine. It's all going to be fine. And I found that philosophy has got me through a lot. Now, Rupert Murdoch, you've been associated with him off and on over many years now. He is still, at 94, a huge force in world media.

25:58What have you learned from him? What have you picked up from him? He once told me that he'd gone against his gut instinct, I think he said three times, and he regretted it every time. I thought that was great advice. Again, nobody knows you better than you do. Trust your gut instinct. I think also he's a massive visionary, looking ahead all the time. Don't look back, wasted energy. There's no point looking back and thinking, I wish I'd done this, wish I'd done that, wish I hadn't done that. Who cares? Nobody cares. Always look forward. I think he's been a great visionary like that. And you've got to have balls of steel.

26:31Especially in the media world, as you know, it's an aggressive jungle. He can't afford to be weak in a jungle. Well, the old lion comes around the corner and bites the head off. When have you not followed your instinct? What are the mistakes you've made? I mean, it's interesting. I can remember, like a little story I'll tell you from the newspaper days to show you how tricky it could be sometimes. I remember when Paul McCartney was with Heather Mills. I'd actually introduced them. Gosh. Yeah, not my finest hour. In fact, I was in Kensington High Street a few years later and a woman ran past in a very expensive tracksuit and stopped and came back and went, hey Piers, dad says thanks, you cost him 60 million.

27:13It was Stella McCartney. And so it didn't work out and it was obviously awful. But I remember when she gave birth and all we knew was that the baby had been born and one of my team rang Paul McCartney's brother and said, is it true? Yeah, we're all celebrating great news. Is it a boy or girl? It's a boy, it's a boy. You sure? 100 %? Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. So we ran this. It's a boy was the Daily Mirror headline. Everybody else was, you know, Heather has baby, what a Mac and Joy. And we were the only ones that went, it's a boy, massive headline, screaming. It's a 50-50 shot, right? Well, actually these days it can be a little bit more complicated.

27:57It's a non-binary. But in those days, life was a little simpler. And it was either a boy or girl. It's a boy. And there was a press association news snap at about nine in the morning announcing a baby girl. And I was like, how did we get that wrong? So apparently we rang back Mike McCartney. He said, oh, sorry, lads. I was just having a bit of a laugh with you. Say, Mike. So, you know, a lot of that would go on. So there's a lot of stuff used to go on with people trying to hoax you, prank you, play games, whatever, have their own little thing. So sometimes the stuff that I regret, I always regret mistakes, most of all.

28:36So as a newspaper editor, I was a journalist, actually, Facts are facts are facts. If you get the facts wrong, there's no defence. So the thing that was most inexcusable, you can have arguments about privacy, you can have arguments about what's in the public interest and what isn't, you can have arguments about legality, actually, with newspapers. Some of the biggest newspaper scandals that they've revealed have involved law-breaking. The Daily Telegraph expenses scandal was gained through illegal means, but obviously the public interest outweighed the illegality. So all of that stuff is an arguable point.

29:10Facts are not arguable. And we now live in a weird time led by my old friend, Miss Markle, where people think they can have my truth. What is my truth? You don't have my truth. You have the truth. It's a fact. You know, two plus two is four. You can't say, well, my truth says it's five. Well, I'm sure it does, but it's still four. and I think that's become a really bad thing about society so I look back and I can't even remember particular stories but I do remember the things that most annoyed me where we just got things wrong there's no defence for that there's defence for pretty much everything else you mentioned there, Miss Markle I thought I remember you were talking about the German Chancellor but that is Meghan, that's going forward a bit but since you raised that how did you first meet her and why has there developed this well she slid into my DMs true story slid into your DMs well I was following I loved the show called Suits the show she was in and one day I followed four of them on Twitter as it was then and she replied within five minutes on my direct messaging may have been four actually and I said oh my god I'm such a big fan I don't think she'd say that now but I'm such a big fan, thanks for the follow, right?

30:31So we had a few exchanges and then one of the other guys replied to me as well, a guy who played Lewis Litt in the show. It was a very good show. And then we all still exchanged stuff and then they would send me clips from the show and previews and so on. He came on Good Morning Britain and we sent her the pictures and stuff. So I knew her quite well. And then she came to London and we met for a drink in my local pub and got on, I thought, quite well or whatever. And then never heard from her again and that was when she met Harry. I didn't care about that. I thought it was quite funny. He was more annoying because he also ghosted me, the bloke.

31:05Yeah, the other guy. And then he popped up after the wedding grovelling apology. I was like, forget it, mate. No one had even heard of you anyway over here. So it was all a bit weird. And then I just saw there was a pattern that she just ghosted pretty much everyone that was no longer of use to her. And you could see that with her family, with Harry's family, with friends, with her ex-husband, with her, everyone just at some stage becomes superfluous and gets cut. And I think that's been the problem, you know, for where they've now found themselves. So I think that, look... Because she cost you, in a way, your job at Good Morning Britain, didn't she?

31:38Yeah, I know. What was the background to that? Well, because the Oprah Winfrey thing appeared, and I said on Good Morning Britain, I don't believe a word of this, especially about the racism allegations, and especially about the fact she said that no one at the palace would allow her to have treatment for suicidal thoughts. I thought this cannot be true. And sure enough, there's never been any evidence to substantiate any of it. And she also said the Archbishop of Canterbury had secretly married her and Harry in their garden three days before the televised wedding, which if that had been true, he'd have been in prison.

32:11It was a criminal offence. So the poor old Archbishop was about to be taken off to the tower. So anyway, it all blew up and I was like, well, this is my view. I wouldn't believe her if she read me a weather report. And then everyone else was like, well, you can't say that. You have to believe her. I was like, why? So anyway, she wrote without me knowing. She wrote to my boss, Dame Carolyn McCall, who runs ITV, and said, you've got to fire him. And she said, I write to you as a woman and as a mother. You've got to fire him. So I was then told, if you either apologise to Meghan Markle for disbelieving her, or you have to leave.

32:46I went, in that case, I'm leaving. And that was that. Go back to your newspaper days. Journalism ends for you, daily print journalism, when you lose your job at the Mirror. And that's when you find yourself still wanting to be somehow out there. And how do you get this job in America? I had lunch with Simon Cowell. And he said, I'm going to bring back a talent show. And it's going to be three judges. It's going to be any act. It's going to be like any act version of X Factor. Do you want to be a judge? I was like, great. So I ended up doing a pilot with Fern Britton. Remember Fern Britton? to do this morning, and Simon and me.

33:24And Paul O 'Grady was the host. Oh, wonderful. And it was called Paul O 'Grady's Got Talent. And it was going to be my comeback from being fired for the mirror. And then Paul O 'Grady fell out with ITV, spray gunned them in public. The show got put on the back burner and then canned. And I was like, well, that's great, isn't it? And then I remember Simon texting me saying, I've sold the rights to Got Talent to NBC in America. I can't be on it because I'm doing American Idol. and he's someone who's sort of arrogant, obnoxious, very judgmental. Your name is immediately sprung to mind. Do you want to fly out tomorrow to meet the NBC executives?

34:01I was like, happy days. I got on a plane. Simon met me with his dentally at the airport or Rolls, whichever one it was. Drove me back. Next day I said, well, what should I do with these executives? They'd never heard of me. He went, do what you normally do, Piers. Just bullshit like you normally do. And it was, I have to say, world-class bullshitting. But I got on really well with him and next thing, three weeks later, I'm on the Paramount movie lot going through the Melrose Gates, the famous Hollywood gates of the Paramount movie lot. I've got my own trailer next to David Hasselhoff and I'm a judge on America's Got Talent.

34:34And then I remember being at Royal Ascot when the ratings came in for the first show. And Simon had said to me, look, three out of 30 shows work when they're new in America. 27 fail immediately, just dead on arrival. So don't get your hopes up. So the ratings came in And he rang me and he went, it's not good news. It's not good news. I went, oh, oh, I can feel my heart sink. He went, it's really bad news. I'm sorry, Piers, I'm sorry. He said, in fact, he said, for me, it's about as bad as it could possibly be. I was like, oh, oh, oh, well. I said, yeah, I'll get rid of the rented Aston Martin.

35:13I'll check myself out of the Beverly Wilshire. I guess I'll go back to my local pub. a tail between my legs and then Simon went yeah it's it's just incredibly painful to have to tell you that you're number one in the ratings and I was like whoa and he said I feel like Dr. Frankenstein when the monster got let loose and that was it we were the number one show on television in America and my life after that changed dramatically but it was all down to Simon so even though I give him a hard time in public I owe him so much because without him forcing me onto that show with executives who've never heard of me, I would never have done America's Got Talent.

35:55Next year we did Britain's Got Talent. That was a massive number one hit as well. Off the back of all that, I then did Celebrity Apprentice in America because that was another NBC show. I won that, got to know Trump, who was the host. Then I replaced Larry King at CNN. I don't think any of that stuff in America would have ever happened if Simon had taken a punt on me. So I owe him a lot. When you met Trump, did you think he was remarkable right from the beginning? I thought he was different. These are very unique characters. As my daughter says to me the other day, she said, you know, Dad, I keep hearing you talk about Donald Trump being a unique character.

36:31She said, do you think there's such a thing as too unique? And he is, you know, he's a complete force of nature. Even when he was just judging The Apprentice, he, unbelievable self-confidence. Just incredible self-confidence to back himself, the like of which I've never seen. I mean, Cristiano Ronaldo has it in football. A few people have it in other walks of life. I've never seen anything quite like it with Trump. He will just back himself. And you saw recently in the last year, they tried to kill him. They tried to jail him. They tried to ruin his life, wipe him out financially, all these things.

37:06And he ends up winning the White House back. That's unbelievable resilience, whatever you think of him. So I think he's got remarkable traits, the like of which I don't see. He's also personally very loyal. He's very loyal to me. When I got canned out of CNN, I can count on one hand the number of people that bothered to stay in touch from America at any high level. He used to call me every three, four weeks for a chat, send me little notes of encouragement, ask if he could help, get me another gig out there. He didn't need to do any of that. But how well does he know you? Because there was a phone call made to him, wasn't there, by you that lasted 20 minutes and it turned out it wasn't you.

37:40What's this story? Well, actually, I got reminded of this. I was in Qatar two weeks ago for the state dinner for Trump. And one of his team came up to me and said, Piers, do you remember that guy that rang pretending to be you? So some bloke had rung the White House, pretending to be me, persuaded them it was me, got through to Trump on Air Force One, had a 20 minute conversation with the president of the United States. This is the last time he was president. And it wasn't me. So then the team go, how was the call you were in? I went, what call? and the weird thing is nothing ever came out they all thought they were going to get fired nothing ever came out whoever did that never did anything with it somebody out there has a 20 minute conversation with Donald Trump pretending to be me and the worst thing as I said to Trump later how could you talk to someone for 20 minutes and not understand it wasn't me it was a very it was a very strange thing but yeah very weird I think we do understand that no no the man is only listening to himself so no he's talking for 20 minutes he thinks he's having a conversation with you what he's enjoying is what he's saying well to a point yeah I mean he's a bit like that I mean he rang me the other day I was in a black cab in London and the phone went I thought it's a bit weird it's me and the cab driver how wonderful what's it say on the phone?

38:56DJT and I thought should I take the call it's a bit of a tricky one I thought well you can't not take the call so I said Mr President I could see the cab driver going whoa and then we talked for about 15 minutes and every time I was like, yes, Mr. President. And I think, yeah, Vladimir Putin, yeah, and President Xi and, you know, Keir Starmer. But yes, Mr. President, yeah, I'll see you. I could see this cab driver. He just kept looking in his mirror at the end. I'll never forget this. I hung up and he said, Piers, I don't mean to pry into your privacy, mate. He said, but was that Donald Trump?

39:26I said, it was actually, yeah. He said, I've been driving this cab 35 years. I've never had anyone in the back of the cab talking to the President of the United States. It's very funny. So, yeah, look, Trump, he'll just call you up on his mobile. The best of him is clearly his sense of humour. He's got a great sense of humour. He's very... Look, I think George Clooney got it right yesterday. I saw an interview. If you like Trump, he's very funny. If you don't like him, you probably don't find him funny at all. So there's very little middle ground. But he can be very, very entertaining. If he was here now, I would defy you, even if you hate him, not to laugh because he'll make you laugh.

40:02It doesn't mean he's a perfect human being. He's very flawed in many ways. But he has a lot of qualities, which I think are also very strong ones. You know, he's very loyal. He's extremely hardworking. His team tell me if he's in the White House, he puts in a 13, 14-hour shift. He's nearly 79 years old. Incredible energy. Never had a drop of alcohol in his life. Never had a cigarette. Never had a drug. So he's remarkably healthy for a guy of his age. And he's, you know, he backs himself. And he's basically doing now what he campaigned on. What he said he'd do. We may not like it. Half of America doesn't like it because they voted against him.

40:40But you can't say he's not a politician who is doing what he said he'd do. You fell out with him. How did you fall out with him? Well, the last interview I did with him, it was all going fine. In fact, it wasn't going fine. I'll tell you what happened. Any Nigel Farage fans in the room? Well, you're... And I'm in reform country, right? Well, you are. Well, I go to Mur-a-Lago. I'm launching Piers Morgan Uncensored. And my team are there. We've got it all set up. We've been there all day. And we're 10 minutes away from me interviewing Trump. And I've interviewed him 30, 40 times before. 30 or 40?

41:14Yeah, but this was the big one. This was the big one to launch my new show. And then an aide comes to me with bits of paper like this. And he said, we've got a problem, Mr Morgan. I said, what's the problem? He said, somebody sent a message to President Trump. I said, what is it? So I had a look. And it was all the worst things I'd said and written about him. in the previous year about the pandemic, about the riots on January the 6th, about the storm election stuff. And I was reading it, I was like, ooh, ooh, ooh. And then right in the middle were two compliments by Nigel Farage. So I was doing the maths, so I checked Nigel's Twitter feed.

41:51And sure enough, two days before, he'd been at Mar-a-Lago having dinner with Trump, who'd obviously said to him, oh, I've got your mate, Piers, coming in. So Farage had gone back to London, dug out all the worst things I'd said and written about Trump, and sent them to Trump 10 minutes before the interview. So Trump was, he's cancelling the interview. God. And I was like, this is a nightmare. So apart from parking the thought of dismembering Farage limb by limb and then setting fire to the limbs. Which you are capable of, I think. Very capable. Still am. We've actually made up, but it was treachery beyond all treachery.

42:29And I thought, what do I do about this? and I thought, I said, look, can I talk to him? At least let me talk to him. So eventually I was allowed to go and see Trump at his office and he was behind his desk, absolutely steaming furious, effing and blinding at me. Yeah, how could you do this? You're my apprentice. I'm really giving you the full barrels. And I suddenly had a flash of inspiration because that morning the Palm Beach Gazette paper, whatever it is, had got an interview with Ernie Els, the golfer who played with Trump the week before and Trump had got a hole in one. So I said, well, I want to do some good stuff too.

43:02And he said, well, like what? I said, you're hole-in-one. He went, you know about that? I said, know about that? I said, the whole world is talking about nothing else but your brilliant hole-in-one. I said, apparently a five iron, it's 170 yards, two bounces straight in. So he said, it was an amazing shot. Yeah, it was amazing. Amazing hole-in-one. I said, was that your first hole-in-one, President Trump? He went, no, no, I've had seven. If you're a golfer, you're like, really? the next time I saw him talk to him about it he said he'd had nine so he either had a very good run or something was going on and I said have you seen what Ernie L said about you he said what did he say he said you were the best hole in one he's seen from any any politician any president he went really what did he say that I said to Palm Beach he said give me ten copies ten copies he said what else did he say he said you were the best presidential golfer he'd ever played with which he did and he went Ernie said that he said I am a very good golfer very good I mean I'm a beautiful I'm a beautiful, I'm a beautiful guy.

43:58It was a beautiful hole in one. So then he said, all right, all right, we'll do the interview. So then we do the interview. For about 50 minutes, it's great, and it's all going great. And then I have to get into the difficult stuff. And I said, look, you may as well know that I don't believe you have the election stolen. Well, then you are a fool. I said, well, maybe I am, but you've not produced the evidence. I think you should leave that, move on. I think it's getting boring for everybody. Well, you are an idiot. You're a fool. And off he went. And then he said, all right, enough of this. He pulled off his mic and stood up and was storming off.

44:30And as he stormed off, I went, well, hang on. We haven't done the hole in one. So then he goes, all right, five more minutes. So then we do the hole in one chat and he's brilliant, all very upbeat and positive. Then he remembers he needs to be pissed off. So then he went, anyway, that's it, so dishonest. So off he goes. And then I did a big thing about it. I did to him what he did to me on The Apprentice. I did a trailer of the ultimate showdown with Trump, him ripping the mic off, not really revealing what happened. And he issued about four statements about me of increasing venom. And the last one just said, Piers Morgan's so dead, he's now catching flies.

45:08Oh, that's so good. I went about six miles later of total silence. My phone went in the dressing room at the show. It's Piers, it's Donald, are we good? Are we good? I said, we've never been better. And that was it. Like nothing had happened. That's extraordinary. So Elon Musk has nothing to worry about because you just have to give it about six months. You mentioned at the beginning how your parents, they'd been dark times as well as wonderful times. For them, they were tough times, were they? I mean, financially tough or...? Not really. I mean, like I say, I never felt like we wanted for anything.

45:42I didn't go on a foreign holiday until I was probably 16, 17. We didn't need massive amounts of material things, but we certainly weren't poor, but we didn't have a lot of excess cash, is how I would describe it. And have you had dark times in your life? Has there been? Not really. I just, honestly, I just always think you've got to be. Positive. Well, not just positive, but just don't let the bad. My favourite quote is Rocky Balboa. Brilliant. If you haven't watched it, it's brilliant. He just says, you know, life's tough. It's not all about flowers and happy stuff, right? He said, life will knock you down if you let it, and it will keep you down if you let it.

46:19And life is not about how hard you can hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and get back up and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done. And I absolutely believe that. If something bad happens to me or what other people think is bad, often they're not the same thing. But negative stuff's going to happen. The older you get, you're going to lose family. You're going to lose friends. You're going to lose jobs. You're going to lose all sorts of stuff. Life's about dealing with loss. And it's how you deal with it determines, I think, the quality of your own life. and I just normally count to 10, literally.

46:53I got fired from the mirror, just counted to 10. Deep breath, move on, move on. And I had three calls as I was driving back from the mirror. It was Muhammad Al-Fayed, yeah, that guy, saying, offering me a job as a doorman at Harrods. And then Marco Pierre White offering me a very long lunch at his expense, which he would cook, which we did and was great. and Ian Botham rang to say, do you want to come and play golf in Spain at my place there and get away for things for a week? All in their own way, very nice calls to take at the time. But it made me realise, well, okay, I've lost a job, so what?

47:31So what? I think too many people just, they let stuff beat them down and they forget that life's actually about getting back up. And as long as you can get back up and keep moving forward, then take that option. You're going to have a much happier life. I don't ever really dwell on bad stuff or negative stuff because I can't see the point. Other than Arsenal coming second, three seasons running, that is beginning to eat away at my soul in a very dark way. You have four children. I do. By two wives. Do you have a time to see them, given all this travelling? Yeah, yeah, all the time. And you get on well with them?

48:05I read something recently. It was a TikTok, actually. It was an American business guy, billionaire, in his 80s. And he said, what's the definition of success? He said, look, success is if your kids get to adult age and they still want to hang out with you. I thought that was really powerful and so true. Because actually once your kids are old enough to make their own minds up about if they want to be around you and they're not relying on you, that calculation they make is a really interesting one, an important one. I'm very fortunate. My kids like hanging out with me.

48:40Good. We're going to have some questions now from the floor. The first one actually has been sent up from Emma Pearson Kendall. A lot of scrutiny over the years about the methods used by media tabloids during, oh, your time as editor, particularly the phone hacking. We know you've denied involvement. The role of leadership in all this is crucial. Is it ever possible, she's talking about accountability, for a truly successful and respected leader to take credit for the successes of their team and build a career on it, but then disown any wrongdoing as if it happened in a vacuum? Interesting question.

49:11Well, I think it's a perfectly valid question. I think phone hacking was completely wrong and should never have been happening. I think it was a small number of people doing it on certain newspapers. I think it's perfectly possible to run a very big newsroom with hundreds of journalists and not be aware of what they're all up to. But I did not get involved in that myself. I've made that very clear. But I think it raises a good point. If you're going to be passing judgment on leaders of other institutions and companies and so on for their failings, you'd better get your own house in order. Soraya Hutchinson, has ITV ever apologized to you over the Meghan drama?

49:43since clearly they haven't come up with the evidence and you lost your job. No, and what was interesting was Ofcom ruled a few months later in my favour and said it would have been a chilling infringement on my free speech rights not to be allowed to disbelieve Meghan Markle that time. No, they haven't apologised, but I do go back on ITV now. I still remain friends with quite a few of them. I just think they just, they forgot the golden rule of a media company. You should be the standard bearers for free speech, not the ones that surrender at the altar of spoiled brats in California telling you how to instruct your team on what they're allowed to say or not I don't think I'm going to be eating a jar of Megan's new jam apparently it's all sold out really both jars have gone we've got time for a couple of quick questions from the crowd yes right to the back upstairs somebody waving not drowning.

50:42Tell us what your name is and what you'd like to ask Piers. Hello Piers. Hello. Don Brian. Now we know Meghan Markle lies like the timer on a washing machine. Do you think the media, the mainstream media is losing credibility if they keep backing people like her and not revealing the truth because people are now seeking independent outlets online? That's a really good question. I do think the reason shows like mine are going gangbusters on YouTube, for example, is people are exasperated by this incessant war on free speech. And I think the whole woke brigade who seem to, on the one hand, say they hate fascism, but on the other hand, they behave like fascists.

51:26They want to tell people what they can think, what they can laugh at, what heroic figures are allowed to admire, what books they can read, what movies they can like, what comedy they can find acceptable and so on. That is fascism. And they've never understood that irony. I think we're coming out of it. I've written a book where I'm nearly finished called Woke is Dead. I'll be holding some funerals for it all around the world from London to Sydney to New York. But I hope it is dead because that's not what a country like ours was ever built on. This is a country of opinionated people unafraid to express themselves.

52:02You should be free to have your own opinions If you don't want to believe Meghan Markle, whatever it may be, you are entitled to not believe her. You shouldn't be bullied into having to do something like that where to me, it was preposterous. I could tell she was lying anyway. But regardless of her, it's not really about that. It's about free speech. Everyone in this room should be allowed to express themselves in an honest way, to express opinions they like. Sometimes you're not inciting violence, it's nobody else's business what your opinion is. and we've got to a place where too many people have been cancelled for putting the wrong thing on Facebook or Twitter or misgendering somebody or any of this stuff or not using the right personal pronouns, it's all bullshit we've got to get away from all this go back to normal life normal life there we are

53:00would you like to lead a political party people start new parties and next thing you know, they're top of the polls. Well, I'm launching my campaign. What a place to begin it, Bridlington. I do think, yeah, it's a great place to do it. Also, it's probably the epicentre of the anti-woke sentiment. It's probably right here. I can definitely feel that. And also, PM for PM has a good ring to it. PM for PM. Have I got any votes in the room? I mean, what are you all thinking? Yeah, I'm feeling the love in Bridlington. All right, the campaign starts here. One last question. Five very quick questions requiring 30 second answers maximum.

53:35Your greatest personal failure?

53:41God, that's a good question. I don't think I've had one. Greatest personal failure. Well, it's interesting because I think what other people would think of failures. I don't think so. I went to America, for instance, replaced Larry King, did 1 ,200 shows. No, I don't mean that. I meant personal. Oh, personal? I mean personal. I mean, you've had two marriages. Yeah. Well, I don't think, look, you never want to have a marriage end. No. So I would certainly say that. I get on very well with my ex, and she's the mum of my three boys. But yeah, that was certainly a failure that you would rather not have.

54:16You don't get married to get divorced. So I would probably say that. Other than that, I think I've tried, as I've got older in particular, to just be more aware of being a good son, a good sibling, a good father, a good friend. And I think as you get older, you realise how important that is and how unimportant relatively money, cars, houses and all the material things in life actually start to become. And I think you've answered the personal success by mentioning earlier the guy who said if your adult children still want to hang out with you and yours clearly do. I think the fact that my kids want to hang out with me as much as they do, I love that I hope that continues that to me is the definition of success and it costs you nothing three more then we're over if I say to you joy a moment of joy in your life and I mean your personal life a moment of joy that suddenly brings a smile to your face to think yes that was great I think the births of all my kids it's a miraculous thing to watch I mean certainly the first one I told my oldest recently When you take that little bundle home and the door shuts and you're on your own with it, you're like, wow.

55:26I was in my 20s and you're thinking, this little thing is now reliant completely on me for everything, including its life. That's an amazing thing to suddenly have. So I think that, again, I think it's that, isn't it? I could talk about professional things that have been successes, but I sort of view the successes and the failures in the same light. It's all been a bit of a laugh, to be honest. I don't take any of it that seriously. So, joy, I love that. What about sadness, a moment of personal sadness? What springs to your mind? Not when you rationalise it, but as I say, sadness. What suddenly comes into your head?

56:04I think Thierry Henry going to Barcelona can kill me. And the worst thing about that was when he, I'd interviewed him for GQ three months before, and he gave me his shirt he'd worn in a match, and he signed it. Two peers, a gooner for life. Best wishes, Thierry. Also a gooner for life. Before that interview came out, he'd gone to Barcelona. And I later, he called me. He was at the New York Knicks, I think it was, in basketball in New York. And I bumped into him. We were both there. And he looked at me and went, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I said, it's not me, but my oldest boy, he's inconsolable. and so Thierry left him a message on his answering machine Spencer this is Thierry I am so sorry for upsetting you so much and actually it turned out he is a goon of a life Thierry Henry but no to be serious I think I remember when my grandmother died I remember that as being probably the saddest moment of my life and I remember she was like the matriarch of our family that was an incredibly sad moment for me she was such a guiding spirit it.

57:16She had these great sayings, one of which was, one day you're the cock of the walk, the next you're a feather duster. And she used to send it to me in good times and bad. And the point being, don't get too excited about either of those two things. Don't get over full of yourself when you're cock of the walk, because you're going to be the feather duster at some stage. And when you're the feather duster, don't worry, because you could be cock of the walk again. Brilliant. And do you have, finally, a maxim that you could share with us? You've given us so much good advice, both from your own experience and things you've picked up observing other people.

57:48Is there a lesson you have learnt in your 60 years that you can sum up in a nutshell to send us the end of our day here on our way? What have you learnt? Nelson Mandela. And it was a quote I asked him about when I saw him, because I loved it. And he thought this was a great maxim in his life. And think about this guy who'd spent 27 years in a 6x6 cell. for his political beliefs. And when he came out, he could have gone one way or the other. He could have come out and exacted terrible retribution against the white population of South Africa, but he went the other way. And he tried to become, as he was, an incredible unifying force.

58:28But he had this saying, it always seems impossible until it's done. And I love that. Because we're all going to have moments in business, in life, whatever it is, where you're going to face what you think are insurmountable odds to get something you want. A deal, a this, a that, whatever it is. Just remember Mandela. He was in that cell thinking, one day I'm going to be president of this country. It seemed impossible, and then it was done. So Nelson Mandela. It always seems impossible until it's done. It always seems impossible until it's done. Well, we launched the campaign PM for PM in Bridlington.

59:11It almost seems impossible until it's done. It began here and you were present. This is where it started, folks. Piers Morgan, ladies and gentlemen. Piers Morgan. That was marvellous. That was marvellous. You're marvellous, I think. Well done. Wow. That was Piers Morgan. And he's gone already. We said goodbye and he disappeared. Didn't even have time to shake him by the neck. I mean, shake him by the hand. Actually, he's great fun. We had a fun time. I did want to show him, though, Bridlington Pier, because I thought peers ought to meet peers. Now, I'm on my way to the station, too. I'll be catching the later, slower train.

59:49But that's me. That's Rosebud. See you next time.

1:00:29Rosebud is produced by Harriet Jane, artwork by Freya Betts, and music by Phil Leppard.