Rosebud at Valentine's: Leslie Caron

0:00Welcome to a Rosebud special, a special for Valentine's Day. Cue the music.

0:27Welcome to this week's Rosebud. It's Valentine's Day, so I wanted a very special guest. and I thought back to my childhood. I thought back to the 1950s and I thought back to one of my favourite films of all time, a film, Gigi, which I saw in the 1950s. And the girl playing Gigi in this film was Leslie Garon. She was so beautiful, so wonderful. The songs were so fantastic. The story, perhaps it's a controversial story now, it was written by a French writer, Colette, and Leslie Caron was and is a French actress, a remarkable actress. First came to international fame in An American in Paris, but starred in many movies through the 1950s, 1960s, nominated for Oscars, Golden Globes, you name it.

1:20She was a big international movie star, in a sense a kind of European Audrey Hepburn and famous. She made lots of news as well because she was formidable as a character, fascinating personality. She was married, I think, three times. Oh, I know three times I've done the homework. I know she was. And I knew her second husband, the famous director, Peter Hall, the founder of the Royal Shakespeare Company, director of the National Theatre. So she's had the most remarkable life. She is the most remarkable person. She's now 94, I think, and she very kindly invited me and Harriet, my producer, to visit her at her home in London and to record her, well, her story there, which we've done.

2:09So this is a Valentine's Day special with one of my favourite film stars of all time. My very special Valentine, Miss Leslie Cahill. Enjoy. And cue the music. I hope it's got a Gaelic twang.

2:37Leslie Caron, born nearly 95 years ago, now living in London, I want you to cast your mind back if you would and tell me what is your very first memory. Well, the very first memory that I sincerely remember is flying from the top floor of our house where we lived in Neuilly -sur-Seine, flying down to another member of my family. Out of the window? No. From a balcony? In the staircase. The staircase. Yes, flying over the staircase. So how old do you think you were when this happened? I think I was two or three or four. Wow, and you flew through the air from the balcony and you were caught by a member of your family.

3:35Yes. Can you remember which member of the family caught you? No. Fine. Well, tell us then about you as a little girl. It's a wonderful opening image, you flying through the air. Isn't it? It's beautiful. I mean, it says something about the future. It does. Extraordinary. Well, I'm glad you were caught. Neuilly is near Paris. My grandparents loved building houses, and they built one in Neuilly. They had the ground floor, and my part of the family had the top floor. So tell us about your part of the family. Who were your parents? Who was your father? Who was your mother? My father was the youngest of his family, and he was a chemist.

4:32What was his name? Jean-Claude Chéry. Jean-Claude Chéry. Charming. Chéry was one of his first names, or was that his surname? No. He was Caron. He was Jean-Claude Chéry Caron. Whenever he was asked, what is your name, little boy? He would say Jean-Claude Chéry because he was used to... Oh, people calling him darling. Yes. Oh, Jean-Claude darling. So he thought that was his name. Yes. Je suis Jean-Claude Chéry. That's charming. Yes. Was he a charming man when you knew him? Absolutely. And there he is. It's a portrait of him you have here in your home. Oh, he's a boy there. Yes. In blue shorts and a white shirt.

5:19What is your most vivid memory of your father? If you see him now in your mind's eye, what do you see? What sort of a man? What are you doing with him? His jokes. My father was always lightening up the conversation. My mother would get upset about the time the train was leaving for the south of France. and so on, holidays. My father was calm, slept beautifully and was amiable. And he was clearly a handsome boy. Was he a handsome man as you remember him? Very, very handsome. As a matter of fact, my mother kept saying he looks like Valentino. Oh, the great silent film star. So who could resist Valentino?

6:16Well, Valentino was famously, at that time, 1920s, the most beautiful man in the world. Well, so was my father. Well done. Was he, as a consequence of this, something of a ladies' man, or was he very faithful to your mother? Well, my mother was quite a number herself. she was ravishing and she was a ballet dancer so she had a beautiful body beautiful legs was it your mother I seem to remember you telling me this once may have got it wrong who said if you want to marry a prince or a multi-millionaire if you're an ordinary girl the only way to do it is to become a ballet dancer have I imagined that?

7:08Or did you say that to me once? I'm not sure, but that sounds just like her. This is exactly what she thought. So she was a beautiful young ballet dancer and she caught the eye of your father. Was she much younger than him? No, she was older. Oh. She was five years older. Oh my. But it served her right. she had a way of dominating without meaning to. She was like a southern belle without being a southern belle. But she was American, you know. I didn't know that. What was her name? Margaret. Margaret. And how did they meet? How did Margaret and your father meet? Margaret was going through ballet school.

8:00There was a handsome boy who was in the same school as my mother. She married him. She married him thinking this was the thing to do. And he never forgot her. He was crazy about my mother. would turn up in Paris from time to time. When they needed a legal name to sign a paper, it was always Mr. Green. I suppose my father overlooked the fact that my mother still considered him part of a family. So this young man who was at the school with your mother, they married, did they? They married. Then she met my father. And did she get divorced or were they? Yes. She got divorced from Mr. Green, as we're calling him.

9:07Yes. And then she thought, Monsieur Caron is just as good. Money. There's money in that family. and they're well situated socially. So she never forgot this first love, her first husband, and he never forgot her, but she settled with your father. Yes. And were they overall, do you remember them as a, your mother and father was a happy couple? Oh, very happy. And when they were married, he was running the business. They were helping build the houses that your grandfather was interested in building. and also to have a profession of his own he was built a beautiful pharmacy Place de l 'Opera if you please if we please there's not a more expensive address in Paris exactly and so there was the pharmacy and all the hawkers used to come who came?

10:13hawkers hawkers Yes? All the whores. All the whores. Forgive me. This is France in the raw, Paris in the raw. All the whores would gather outside the pharmacy. Well, because my father was pretty smart and the pharmacy stayed open late. Gosh, to provide you with what you might need if you're going to be spending time with one of the whores. Is that it? Yes, in the street. I never thought our conversation would go here so soon, but why not? Oh, my. I'm not trying to spice it up. This is the truth. No, I believe it. My father's pharmacy was Claude Caron, was open late at night. Very good. And on Sundays, my mother instilled the American idea of opening on Sunday.

11:18So take me, so I've got the family, this interesting couple, your father and mother. I've got the picture of him, tall, handsome, charming, amusing. Your mother, who, as you say, is quite a number, five years older. She's got a man in the background, fascinating home to be born in. You have brothers and sisters? Are you the oldest? Where do you fall? I have a brother. he's also he did chemistry and did proper schooling which I did not do. So how were you educated? How did you learn? My mother took me out of school at age of 14. No need for girls to be educated. But you then did go to school for the first few years.

12:09Yes. Can you remember your first school? Any friends from your first school? No. No. So, the early years. Give me a little picture of Leslie without your brother. Is he older than you, younger than you? What was his name? His name was Emery, after Emery de Narbonne. Oh. Because my mother might have been a ballet dancer. Oh. But she was always in books. And she certainly bothered to learn about French history. She could speak Russian fluently, and she was altogether quite brilliant. What do you think you've got from her, Leslie? What did your mother give you in the long term? I'm practical, and I certainly have had a great deal of talent for ballet and for anything musical.

13:13And I know that your father gave you your humour and your charm because they're self-evident. I remember you telling me once that your mother suffered from depression. Was that when she was young, do you remember that, or was it just when she was older? oh did I tell you that maybe I shouldn't be repeating that but I do seem to remember that since we're talking about her yes she was well listen she was abandoned by her father and then came the war which stopped all social activity. You couldn't receive, you couldn't have lunches, dinners. All she did was to play bridge. And she was brilliant. And she read and read and read.

14:08She had quite a good brain. Well, she had a very good brain and they were sophisticated people. So, let's go back to you. age 14, you're at school which you don't really remember very much but by then the Second World War is on. What do you remember of the Second World War before we get you leaving school? German soldiers, German uniform, the nape of their neck, always fat.

14:42Poor boys. They had fat necks.

14:51And they were not gracious. They didn't have charm. When Paris was occupied, you were living there with both your parents and your brother. Yes, and the Germans had a knife on their belt, a gun on their shoulder. So it was quite menacing. Did your parents ever talk, while the war was happening, while you were in... We listened to the British BBC, which was strictly forbidden and with absolute orders not to reveal that our mother was American. Gosh. So you were leading quite a sort of, well, in a sense, you were captured in your own city. You were left in your own house to live your own life, but you observed the Germans, you didn't fraternise.

15:47Oh, gosh, no. No. No. Everyone hated the Germans. I found it very difficult to adapt at the end of the war. In the sense of once the Germans had gone, you found it difficult to become normal again. Explain that a bit, please. Well, adapt to the idea that the Germans might, after all, be friendly. It was a difficult concept. When you've smelled the smell of their boots, which was always polished with fish. With fish. Oui, yeah. Fish oil. Poisson. Ah, yes. L 'huile de poisson. All of them. Gosh. So they smelled of fish. Goodness. And did your parents, well, did you talk about it privately within the family after listening to the BBC?

16:57Did you sit around the table in the dining room talking about what was happening? Did you think the war would end? Did you think the right side would win? Never, never, never, never. You just thought this was a horror which was there to stay. And later, in the 1950s, when you became famous, did you meet any of the great French resistance people? Did you meet, for example, Charles de Gaulle later in your life? No. No, I did not meet him. But were you interested in politics? Not particularly, but some were friendly, like the British were friendly, and the Germans were not. It took me years, years, years, years to get used to speaking to a German person.

18:01I mean, it seems so odd nowadays. but at first you couldn't say hello to a German. You couldn't tell him where Place de la Concorde was. Oh, you simply didn't speak to them. You just wouldn't. You couldn't. You couldn't bring yourself to. No. They were the enemy. 1945, Paris is liberated. You turn 14. and your mother says, you don't need any more education, Leslie. You're going to be a ballet dancer. At 14, without your mother speaking to you, in your head, what did you want to be? Well, she talked about Pavlova so much that I had to be Pavlova. I had to become a ballet dancer. So you turn 14, 1945, and your marvellous mother, who thinks she's married to a man who looks like Valentino, but still in her heart is slightly beating fast for the mysterious Mr Green, who still loves her but is in the background, she says, Leslie, we are going to put you into dance school, ballet school.

19:19What is the expectation? What are the classes like? Who are you with? Who are the other students? Sometimes, once in a while, there would be a ballet company who would come and perform in Paris and they would take class. And sometimes, eventually, Roland Petit... Oh, the great Roland Petit himself. Himself turned up at class and he said, You, come and see me in my office. and he said that to you yeah and you went to see the great Roland Petit yeah and you stood there aged now 15 yeah and you said monsieur cher maître qu 'est-ce que vous voulez and what did he say to you I'm imagining I'm playing Roland Petit now in the film of your life story what happened tell Tell us about that encounter.

20:23Well, first of all, Roland Petit was quite rude. Oh, no. Tell me, how was he rude? No, he didn't speak grossièrement, but finally, he said big words easily. He was not distinguished. Oh, not Distingué in the way he spoke. No, ballet dancers were not. Oh, interesting. He was quite rough, tough and to the point. Yeah. And what did he say of your potential? He is the great choreographer of the day. He knows it all. And he's with this little girl. And you're standing there. What happens? He said, OK, we open next month. we're starting rehearsal on Monday and I'd like you to do a number and you're playing a clown.

21:32And can you remember, I mean you're still a very young girl, can you remember the opening night when you first went on? Yes. Tell us about it. I was just amazed by the applause. It sounded like rain. And it was quite lovely. And then I had to do it a second time with a girl clown. And we did it together. And more applause, more applause. Those two little girls dressed as clowns and dressed by Christian Dior, by the way. Oh my gosh, it gets better and better. So Christian Dior was there helping out, Roland Petit's choreographer. We'll have Christian Dior, you do the costumes, we've got these two children, they'll be fine.

22:28It's a clown girl, clown boy, get on with it. And so you're there wearing your Christian Dior. Yeah. The applause is literally raining down on you. You are there in your early teens thinking, well, what are you thinking? You're thinking this is the life for me. Yeah. Yeah. I thought this was so thrilling. I walked home because I was living very close to Théâtre des Champs -Élysées. Of course. So you go home. Were your parents not there to watch it, to see it? Yes, on the first night. Ah, but on other nights you just walked home. and so your life as a ballet dancer started. So how many years were you in Paris being a ballet dancer before you were discovered and found yourself in Hollywood?

23:20What happened? Well, I didn't think much of the discovery. To me, American films were not so important as what I was doing with Roland Petit. I thought Roland Petit was the bee's knees The theatre was full up every night And did you have, now you were growing up Did you have people coming round Leaving bouquets for you and all that At the stage at all? Yeah And you took all this in your stride? Yeah Did you have any suitors at that stage Or are you still too young for that? No, no, no, no And were you well, as girl dancers, this is the 1940s in this company, were you well looked after? Were you properly, you know, chaperoned?

24:13Was it a good and safe place to work? My mother saw to it that the girl who was playing the female clown was younger than me. Oh. You know, it's like Les Ballets Reuses de Montegal. the girls were all very young. Everyone forgets that they were about 14 when they joined Diaghilev. Well, I'm glad to hear that in your company they were well looked after. That's good. Yes. And you were happy. These were wonderful years. Wonderful. And you were young, you were fit. And did he give you more exciting dances to do? Did he choreograph more for you? Tell me, what's the most, apart from this one, what's the most memorable dance that you did for Roland Petit when you were at that company?

25:07Well, very soon there was Lee Shin, who was a famous dancer, and Lee Shin favoured me, and there was a new ballet that was going to be created, and he chose me to play the lead. And the leading dancer, Babillet, Jean Babillet, decided he wanted to be my leading man. So everything was quite lovely. Everything was quite lovely. We were riding high. You were still living at home with your parents? When did you leave? No, no, we were travelling. Ah, so you travelled with the company when you were touring. But when you were back in Paris, you stayed at home. You lived at home with your family. Yeah, of course.

26:05Can you remember when you left home, what age you were when you left home and began to live independently? I was 16. And where did you move into? What sort of... Well, Gene Kelly had seen me at the premiere of a ballet where I was the leading lady.

26:31and he said he wanted me. But, I mean, forgive me for sitting here completely startled. We've got this teenage girl in Paris who's suddenly become the star of these ballets being directed, choreographed by the great choreographer of the time, dressed in Christian Dior. She's still a teenager. And suddenly Gene Kelly, the amazing American dancer, choreographer, is there in the audience, sees you, comes around afterwards and says, I suppose first to Monsieur Petit, but then maybe to you and your mother, I like what the kid's doing. No, my mother didn't come around. Tell me what happened. Your first meeting with Gene Kelly, please.

27:15Remember it. Well, I think my mother told me we had a phone call from an agent who represented MGM. And he spoke for Gene Kelly and said that he wanted you to test for the leading lady of this new film he was doing. This was to be an American in Paris? Yes. Good grief. So he'd come to Paris looking for a dancer. He'd gone to the theatre. He'd seen you. He said to his guys, this is the girl we want. And they phoned up. And you and your mother said, well, why not? Is that what happened? Yes. My mother had said no to other filmmakers who were not that famous and that talented. and furthermore were only French.

28:20Of course, she was American. Yes. So Gene Kelly would have meant more to her than to other people. Yes. And she realized this is a major American star. This is MGM, biggest film company in the world. Yes. And they have come in search of my teenage daughter. And so you went for the screen test, which was done in Paris. I did it without thinking anything would happen. It bored me, frankly. I was very happy with Roland Petit and his company. Yes, I love it. MGMR, well, I'll do it. It's boring me, but I'll do it. I'd rather be back doing proper ballet with Roland. Anyway, what happened? How did you, why did you say yes?

29:08I mean, they offered it to you? What happened? Tell me. So I signed some kind of contract and come the day when I was supposed to take the plane and go to Hollywood and start the film. Had you been to America before? Maybe you had because of your mother. Not in America. No. So you're still a teenager. You've signed this contract. Is it one of those long MGM contracts? Ah. How many years did you have to sign for? Six years. So you sign a six-year contract as a teenager to appear in an American in Paris, directed by and starring Gene Kelly. Yep. You get on an aeroplane in Paris. Do you remember the airport?

29:55Well, there was, I think, my mother and father. They came too. And brother. And brother. The whole family came. And you flew to Hollywood. I flew to Hollywood. In those days, it wasn't so easy. You had to stop in New York, change planes, wait around for a couple of hours, and then take another plane, another eight hours flying. Gosh. And then you arrived in Hollywood, sunshine. And what was it like, Hollywood at the end of the 1940s? I mean, what was going on? What are your best, most vivid recollections of your first time in Hollywood? I wasn't excited by it. Gene Kelly was very kind. He had a nice wife.

30:58She invited me for dinner. Good, well done her. Gene was like a brother to me. So you felt at home with them? Yeah. And every Saturday night we would go to Gene Kelly's house on Rodeo Drive and there would be stars from New York. Judy Garland was the hit of MGM. She was a wonderful girl. And did she like you? Did you like her? Yes, yes. You got on well. She was a few years older than you? Yes, she was. And was she helpful to you? Because she had been like you. She was a child star. She was a teenager, as you were. And she was supportive, you felt. She'd call me honey. And she would, yeah, she was very welcoming.

32:03She was the most welcoming. So there you are. You're in Hollywood. You're Saturday nights as the parties when the New York crowd drop in. You're this young girl appearing in this film. What's the first day on the set like, the first day of filming? It was quite dank and dark and not welcoming. It wasn't what I was used to. there wasn't a public welcoming you. There wasn't the rain of applause. No. You were just in this bare studio. And did you have to do a move again and again for each shot? Yes. And that was quite tiring, boring, annoying? Yes, it was. And did you realise while it was happening that the film would become the classic that it became?

32:58No, never. And I didn't think it was as good as... As everybody else thinks. As Roland Petit. Oh. So how many months were you there for the first time for making an American in Paris? About a year.

33:26And is this when you first had boyfriends? Can you remember your first crush, the first boy that you felt fond of? I looked very young. And I think they were staying clear away from me,

33:50thinking she's not a woman. So how old were you before you had your first proper boyfriend? I mean, you got married for the first time when you were, I think, 19 or 20. Yeah. So. Yes. Was your first husband, George, was he your first proper boyfriend? I think he probably was. Geordie Hormel. Geordie Hormel. And he came from quite a successful family, didn't he, Geordie? Yeah, the Hormel spam. Yeah. The Hormel meat. They were the big meat packages, Hormel meat. So he was a young heir to this big meat business. But he was also a musician. And he loved jazz. And also he had a French mother. So you met him, though, in Hollywood, did you?

34:46You met him in America. Yeah. And you quickly decided he asked you to get married. Why did you get married so young and to him? Well, because you get married to the first man who asks you. Yeah, it was a different world in those days. You know, people didn't necessarily sleep with their boyfriends, did they? So if you had a boyfriend and you said, will you marry me? You thought, well, he seems nice and he does. He's an heir of a meat packaging business. Your mother might have liked that. Let's go for it. Did your parents approve? I didn't ask them oh my you just did it yeah we went to Las Vegas oh my it was awful has nobody made a film of your life story it's actually so wonderful and improbable it's wonderful so here you are you go to Las Vegas with Geordi and you get married in the little chapel on the Where did you get married?

35:51Yeah. In a little chapel there where they do these quickie weddings? Yeah. And did you immediately regret it or were you happy for a while? I thought because I was a Catholic, I thought this is what one does.

36:12And you had better follow the rules. An American in Paris opens and you become a sensation. And afterwards, Gene said, well, Leslie, how do you feel? I said, terrible, Gene. I think I have caught the flu. He said, no, honey, you've just seen your first film. That's a great line And did you remain friends with Jean afterwards? Yes, I did For years and years And you then begin this extraordinary life As a film star I mean, you know, from the end of the 1940s through the 1950s You are one of the world's biggest movie stars But you have to remember we were paid a patent. Really? Yeah. You'd signed this seven-year contract, you just got a salary every week.

37:25Were you given a bonus because of the success? Were you nominated for an Oscar for that film or for later? But you were nominated in your time quite early on for two Oscars, you won all sorts of prizes. Did the company give you a bonus? No. If you win? No? Nothing? No, nothing. So there you are. There you are, married in Las Vegas, appearing with Gene Kelly thinking, I want to be with Roland Petit. I'd rather be back in Paris. Is that what you were thinking in your head? Yes, and I tried to. Oh, you tried to get out of it, did you? And I succeeded. I went back to do a season with Roland in London, as a matter of fact.

38:10Ah. But you still went on making these films. They had a seven-year contract. But they gave you permission to go and do a season in London with Roland Petit to keep you happy. Yes. To make sure she'll come back, she'll do another film. The marriage to Geordi, that came to an end quite quickly. I mean, you were divorced within three years, weren't you? He was taking drug, I didn't realise. Oh, I'm sorry. And he just couldn't. It was just hopeless. There was no communication. So it just had to come to an end. And then you come to London because the film, when I say your name to people now, everybody of a certain generation immediately says Gigi.

38:58That's what a lot of people remember, Gigi. But I think that began on the stage, didn't it? It began on the stage for Audrey Hepburn. Oh. Not for me. But you got the film and she didn't. Oh. Because the first thing I did when I arrived in Hollywood was to look for French books. And Colette was for sale. And she is the author of the original novel, Gigi. Yes. I read Gigi. I thought, well, that would be very good for me. and I went to my producer who had done An American in Paris and I told him a film that might be very successful would be Gigi. They're doing it on Broadway. Why don't we do that?

40:01And he thought that was a great idea, bought the book and started to get the rights. And he said it was so complicated because Colette had so many lovers and friends and she had disseminated the rights. In so many different directions. There were lots of people laying a claim. Yeah. And was this going to be a film already with music and songs? No. So Alan Jay Lerner and co. hadn't become involved yet, Lerner and Lerner. Arthur Freed, to name the producer, thought it should be a comedy as it is in the novel. Then he got into hot water because it is not... it has to do with something so illegal.

41:09The theme, you mean? The theme. Of course, because it's about a young girl, essentially... Who's trained to be a cocotte. Indeed, as we would now say, going to be trafficked in the modern parlance. She's trained to be a cocotte, and indeed, this young man is lined up for her, and all of this. And so even then, they thought, hmm, we're not comfortable about this. You had to present it to the Hayes Committee. And they said, no way. No way. You cannot do this film. You've got to find another way. Another way of telling the story. Telling the story. And that's when the idea of making a musical comedy out of it, and Alan J.

42:05Lerner and Fritz Lowe were brought on board, the My Fair Lady people, to write what became the show that eventually becomes the film. So Audrey Hepburn does it first on the stage. When she heard that MDM was buying the rights of the film for Leslie Caron, she hopped on a plane from New York and came and asked Arthur Freed, hey, I'm doing it on Broadway. Why don't I do the film? I'm sorry to hear this, but at the same time, well done, huh? This is the way people get the jobs. She's on Broadway in a hit. She flies to Hollywood. I want this. Who is this Leslie Caron? And what happened? Well, Arthur Fried said, I'm sorry, but that is for Leslie Caron, who is, after all, French.

43:20Yes. Yes. And can sing. And can dance. and could you sing at that stage? No. Well, at least you had something in common with Audrey Hepburn. But in the film, is it you singing? No, no, no. Audrey could dance as well. Of course, I know she could dance. She was a ballet dancer too. But she could not sing. She did not sing in the film of My Fair Lady. Whereas you, did you sing the songs? Please tell me you did. I tried to, they tried to make me sing the songs and they said it's hopeless. Oh. Oh dear. It was all going so well. Now my whole life is a bit shattered. So in the film, we see you, we love you, we hear your voice and we see you dancing but somebody else is actually singing the songs, are they?

44:17Mostly. Mostly, good, good, good. So there are moments when it is you. Yeah, good, I'll stick with that. Those are the moments I like. best. So you make this film of Gigi with an extraordinary international cast. But nevertheless, it was my idea. It was. And I want to think that Arthur Freed thought it was Leslie's idea. Why don't we stick with her? But I think he actually thought I would do it better. And I know you did it better. I just know that. Also, you were able to look very young, which you needed to be, because by the time you made the film, you were in your early 20s. But the girl is really a schoolgirl.

45:06And tell me a little bit about some of the other performers in it. How did you get on with the older man in it, who is Maurice Chevalier? Maurice, very well. Good. He was just sensational. Who was the young man? Who was the hero in the film? Louis Jourdan. Louis Jourdan. And did you fall in love with him? No, no, no. Sometimes people do. He was very handsome. Yes, he's very handsome. But by then, in fact, you had met your second husband, Peter Hall, in London. Yes. How did you meet Peter?

45:49I can't remember. Were you in a play that he directed? No. Oh, yes. Gigi. That's what I thought. I thought it was done in London. And you did the Audrey Hepburn part in London, and he directed the play. Yes. And he was the bright young... Because I met the producer. He came to see me and said, I'd like to do a play with you. And I said, well, what about Gigi? I'm trying to set it up as a film in Hollywood so he said who do you want as a director and I said I don't know anyone give me an idea and he said there's this brilliant young man from Oxford and we could ask him if he's interested. So Peter said yes.

46:52He was, in fact, a brilliant young man from Cambridge. But he was a brilliant young man because he directed the original production of Waiting for Godot in London. Yes. And was, you know. He invited me to Waiting for Godot. So you went to see the original production of Waiting for Godot. Yes. You've played your life, if I say so, only on the top notes. I mean, you're just, you know, if it isn't Roland Petit, it's Gene Kelly, and now you're in London, the original production of Waiting for Godot, Peter Hall's the director, you meet him and you marry him. And you married him because he asked. Is that why it happened?

47:33Yes. Is it as simple as that? Can you remember the moment you agreed to marry Peter Hall? Try and picture it in your head. Well, I'm going to tell you the real truth. I was pregnant. I did not want an abortion. And I wanted the child. I loved children. from a young age.

48:14So I said to Peter, listen, I'm pregnant. And he said, fine, let's have the baby.

48:28And you had two children with Peter. You married him. Yes. You then had two children together, very successfully, very happily. I knew Peter reasonably well and I remember I once had a conversation with him and I said to him, you were married to Leslie Caen. What more did you need in life? And he gave me a very interesting answer. He said to me, when it's not all right, for me, it's all wrong. and he explained the way he'd been married I think four times if not more was because the moment it didn't seem perfect to him it suddenly became imperfect and I have to tell you I said to him Les Zicaron was always perfect and he said to me this was many years later I think you're probably right so that's nice so you had happy times together wonderful he was really everything I wanted in a man.

49:33Intelligent, educated, brilliant and charming. So everything was wonderful. Except he found it very difficult to use me constantly. he wanted more freedom. And you rather hoped that he would be directing you in plays. Yes. And he wanted to do a greater range of things. I wanted to be

50:17Laurence Olivier and Vivienne Lee. That's what you wanted to be. Yeah. That's the sort of work... Yes, you don't set your eyes anywhere, but absolutely at the top. Because about this time, is that the time you made Daddy Longlegs? It was about the same. This is 1955. Who was the star of Daddy Longlegs alongside you? Is that Fred Astaire? Yes. Yeah, exactly. What I'm trying to get at, Leslie, is that the work you do is only pitched at this extraordinary level. You're with Peter Hall, who's been distracted. You're saying, I want to be the big stars of the day well, Laurence Olivier Vividly why can't we be like that?

51:01You're making a movie another movie now you've done Gene Kelly we'll do Fred Astaire now what was Fred Astaire like? was he very different from Gene Kelly? yes he was much more friendly Gene Kelly was born sort of working class boy Fred Astaire was courteous and personally I was closer to Fred Was it easier to dance with Fred Astaire? Was it more comfortable dancing with him?

51:45You asked me a question I've been trying not to answer for 50 years This is your opportunity Miss Caron to answer the question was it more comfortable not do you prefer one to the other their styles are so different there is no comparison in their own ways they are the two greatest film dancers male that we have known yes I'm really asking you if it was more if when you got up in the day you thought I'm dancing with Fred Astaire today that's nice

52:21personally yes I felt It's much more comfortable dancing with Fred.

52:36Tell me, I'd love to know, gossip about any of the people you've worked with, but I do know that you knew Orson Welles, and he is of interest to us on Rosebud because, of course, the name of our podcast comes from his famous film Citizen Kane. Yes. So over the years, you have met everybody. What was Orson Welles like? Were you a friend of his? Did you like him? Yes, God, yes. He was so brilliant, so fast. And was he easy to work with? Oh, God, yes. It's always easier to work with brilliant people than with dumb people. This is the secret of your success. Yes, I see it. You've just pitched yourself at the top rank.

53:24It can't really go wrong. I'm dancing with Fred Astaire. It'll probably work. Gene Kelly's doing this work. I'll do it. That's wonderful. Did you make a film with Cary Grant? Of course. Of course, exactly. I mean, you name them. You've been with them. I hope Cary Grant was charming. Oh. Cary Grant was immensely charming. and he just had wonderful advice to give you. Share a piece of advice he gave to you.

53:59Don't disclose your secrets to the press.

54:09I was hoping it was going to be a secret about the art of film acting. He always seemed so effortlessly relaxed on screen. Was he relaxed while making the film? Was his persona as relaxed as it seems on the screen? He knew he was very, very good.

54:35And he enjoyed being very, very good. and did you feel on a day when working with somebody like him when you woke up a bit apprehensive no no no you felt because he was relaxed and easy you could become relaxed and easy too oh very much it was you were talking with a buddy yeah i mean his eyes were really riveted on you. Oh, it was just pure joy acting with Cary Grant. All right. We're nearing the end of our conversation. Although, of course, I forgot to mention there was a third husband, but we don't need to go into all the... He was the last there, wasn't he? Was he called Michael? Your third husband, Michael Lachlan?

55:30Yeah. Yeah. Was that okay? for a while? Yeah, well. Yes. Well, bearing in mind Cary Grant's rule, you're not obliged to say anything further about your third husband, but we know he came and he went. And the joy is that Peter left you with these two lovely children, one of whom I've met, who have been a constant joy to you, haven't they? Christopher, you've met. I have. He's marvellous. Is he a director now? What is he doing? No, he's a producer. I meant a producer. Did he produce the thing that I loved you in most recently, The Durrells? Yes. He produced The Durrells. Absolutely. We love The Durrells.

56:17Harriet, my friend and producer, is almost her favourite television series. Of course. We love The Durrells. So you've gone on working, you know, right into your 80s and 90s. It's fantastic. An amazing career. We look back now, and I want you, as I say this, whatever comes into your head first, you must say, a moment of sheer joy in your life. Well, the night they invented champagne. That's the kind of moment. Do you remember that song? Yeah. The night they invented, well, of course, you do know the song. That kind of moment where you feel, oh, yes, yes, I remember that. Actually, was that a fun day professionally, recording that number, or was it a nightmare?

56:59No, not a nightmare. At all. It was fun, fun, fun, because Hermione was so much fun to work with. She was wicked and full of fun. Very good. And personally, what gives you joy in your personal life? My children. Can you give me a specific moment of joy with one or other of your children, just so we can picture Leslie Caron in a moment of joy?

57:43Going to Cambridge and hearing Christopher blow the wrong note. so wonderful what did he what was the instrument he played the trumpet was it trumpet oh the moment he blew the moment my son blew the wrong note was for me a moment of joy well i think he'll understand and now we're almost at the end leslie a moment of sadness in your long life and given your age there will have been many moments of sadness i don't want it to end well it won't end you've got years ahead of you we don't want our conversation to end but you have to share with me a moment of sadness usually for people it's remembering the loss of their parents because they were grateful to their parents when did your father die?

58:38my father died in the Virgin Islands where they went and retired and opened a shop called La Belle France Oh, what a lovely idea. Selling all French goods. French perfume. French everything. And was he a good age when he died? No. He had fallen in love with, not my mother, but some hooker. Oh, I'm sorry. Because I know your mother was depressed towards the end of her life, wasn't she? Yeah. Yeah. And that obviously was a sadness for you and a tragedy for her. And have you suffered, you don't need to answer this, bearing in mind Cary Grant's rule, but have you suffered depression in your life? I mean, it's an inherited characteristic for some people.

59:44Yes, at times. Yeah. But you're feeling okay now? You look at... I'm feeling good. Yeah. And so was your mother's death the saddest moment, do you think? Oh gosh, yes. Awful. Awful. We've reached the end of the road. I'm really sorry. She died. I mean, death is a sad thing.

1:00:21but for some it is worse than... Life is worse than death for some because she took her own life, didn't she? Yeah. And that must have thrown you for a long time afterwards. Terrible. Yeah, yeah. But you remember both your parents with great affection. Oh, yes. I think on the whole they were very good parents. And my grandparents were wonderful. My grandfather, my grandmother. And what have you learnt? Here you are, 95, in my view younger than springtime. What have I learned? What have you learned? What has life taught you that you can share with us?

1:01:26Education, education, education. And more education. Well, this has been an education for me. Until I arrived here, I did not realize that all the people you've worked with, Roland Petit is the one that really counts. you've got on the table there is it a French novel on the desk in front of you? Yeah. It looks at me about a thousand pages long. Yes. And you're still clearly keeping your mind brilliantly arrived. It's in French. Yes. You're reading. What is it called? What is it? La Maison Vide. La Maison Vide. Well you'll soon have La Maison Vide because we're going to leave you in peace. I think you're completely remarkable.

1:02:11Leslie Caron thank you so much for joining us on Raspod. Well, thank you for giving me your time. We've given you time and attention. And your ladies. It's been very exciting for us. Don't you think, girls? Completely wonderful.

1:02:47Well, let's take our own. 94 or not, my gosh, she's still got it, hasn't she? I think she's remarkable and wonderful and beautiful and brilliant. And she was my Valentine's Day treat. Valentine's Day, of course, is tomorrow, if you're listening on the day that we actually put this out. And if you haven't got a card coming to you, you can always make one and send it to yourself. Or you can think the whole thing is a lot of nonsense. or you can be rather thrilled when one arrives for you tomorrow. Who knows? Anyway, enjoy Valentine's Day, whether you're with somebody or on your own or maybe if you're with your cat.

1:03:23I know that my Valentine, my lovely wife Michelle, she will be happy so long as Bella, our new cat, is purring. And Bella purrs so loudly. My gosh, Bella jumps onto our bed in the middle of the night and the noise of the purring is extraordinary. wakes us up but then we see her peering at us and we think oh we love you anyway um we love you when you write us interesting letters well look it's a cat has written to us well she's called Kathy but the name is spelt c-a-t-h-y so Kathy King has written to us from oh it's rather lovely from Akron Ohio she writes I listen to Rosebud or what I now call my favorite podcast as soon as a new one pops up in my queue.

1:04:10While listening to your talk with Michelle about your nightly routines, my curiosity was piqued when you mentioned leaving a light on so your cat could see in the dark. Today, curiously again, a friend emailed an interesting article about cats, and I thought I'd like to share it with you. Cats have evolved to thrive in low-light conditions. They require a mere one-sixth the illumination levels humans need to see well. Moreover, their distinctly shaped pupils dilate up to 135 times their smallest size, maximising their light intake. Cat's eyes also feature a layer of cells behind the retina called the tapetum lucidum, which reflects ambient light, further enhancing night vision and giving cats their iconic glowing eyes in the dark.

1:05:05Thanks for your always insightful conversations, Cathy. And Cathy, thank you for your very insightful email. How intriguing. So I think we're doing the right thing to leave Bella with a little bit of low light in the night, because thanks to it, she can see brilliantly and beautifully. So, Bella is our Valentine's Day treat, though secretly, it's Leslie Caron. That's it. If you want to communicate with us, you can. It's simply hello at rosebudpodcast.com. And if you want to see Leslie Caron, you can watch us on YouTube. You just go to wherever you find YouTube, Rosebud Podcast, and there we will be Leslie Caron and me.

1:05:47I dressed up for her. Anyway, so you can see us on Rosebud, and you can listen to Ad Free if you want to ever. www.patreon.com forward slash rosebud. And if you are a member of the Rosebud family, I'll be with you on Sunday. If you're not, we'll be with you as usual next Tuesday and then again next Friday. And we have another remarkable guest in store for you. Thank you for your company today. And whatever you're doing, do it well. Happy Valentine's Day. I'm blowing you a kiss, if it's allowed.

1:06:23Thank you.

1:06:56Rosebud is produced by Harriet Jane, artwork by Freya Betts, and music by Phil Leppard.