Tom Allen

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1:02Wherever you are in the world, whatever mood you got up in, however you're feeling right now, well, you can take an hour or so off from harsh reality and tune in to somebody else's story. Welcome to another episode of Rosebud.

1:38Hello and welcome to another episode of Rosebud. My wife said to me, Giles, you make your introductions too long. You're burbling away when we simply want to know who the guest is, a little bit about them in case we don't know much about them, and then let them tell their story. We don't need to hear your story week in, week out. So let me tell you who my guest is. He's called Tom Allen. He was born in June 1983, and I first heard about him, well, I think in 2005, when I was at the Edinburgh Fringe. And he was then 22, and he won the So You Think You're Funny Comedy Newcomer Award and the BBC New Comedy Award.

2:23And that launched him into a career that's included sell-out stand-up tours, hosting TV shows, including The Great British Bake Off, Extra Slice and You're Fired, and theatre and film. He's currently actually in a wonderful stage show at the Criterion Theatre in London's West End. It's called Titanic and it is hilarious and he is brilliant. But actually, what we're going to hear about in our conversation today is, well, what we're going to reveal, I think, is Tom Allen's fascinating and unusual personality. This is the odd child who dressed as an emperor when he was a little boy and loved Noel Coward, who died many years before he was born.

3:10This is a charming story, delightfully told by a charming man who I've been lucky enough to know since he was in his 20s. He's now a bit older, but he doesn't seem it. I think you'll enjoy this one. It's Rosebud with Tom Allen. Cue the music.

3:41Thomas Paul Allen. Have I got the name right?

3:43Tom Allen: Correct, yes. Born 14th of June, 1983. Goodness me, you're giving away all my passwords. Well, now I want to discover from you, what is your very first memory, Tom? Well, this is a very difficult one because, of course, as you get older, you forget what order you have things in. However, a very early memory for me, I think, was being in the garden underneath a sprinkler. Oh. Yes. That's of some significance. We'll come back to that in a moment. Where was the garden? In Bromley, where I grew up. Is that where you were born? Born in Beckenham and grew up in Bromley. They moved there just after I was born.

4:32So you don't remember where you were before. You remember Bromley. This is your first home.

4:37Tom Allen: My first home. The garden? Describe the garden. Well, it was a sort of 60s new build house. Still is. And then an unusual shaped garden in that it wasn't particularly deep, but it was quite broad. So it was about 70 foot wide, I would say. And it went round the side of the garage. And so, yes, and the people before, Mr. and Mrs. Collier, had done a very good job of the garden and made it very beautiful. And mum and dad, I think, were quite keen to try and maintain that. And I think felt a pressure, actually, to live up to the standards set by these people who had long since vacated their house.

5:10Tom Allen: But that was sort of the nature of it. And are you sitting under the sprinkler? Is it a surprise? Is it a pleasure? I was running under it, you know, as it kind of does its thing. And there's something now, even now, when the grass is wet on a summer's day, there's something very particular about that smell of grass and earth, I think, that still has... I think it is a lovely thing. It's a lovely recollection. What struck me about it is you will now be the fifth gay actor to have a recollection, as your first memory, of having water poured over you in different ways. How interesting. With all the others' baptisms, I hope.

5:45it's a nice way of looking at it we can explore that perhaps later when we get to those difficult adolescent years for sure i'm just throwing that in so there you are who are these parents of yours

5:54Tom Allen: mom and dad irene and paul um my dad paul at that time was selling nissan cars and mom was working for a company called ladder hire which you've guessed it hired out ladders doesn't exist anymore they'd both grown up in my dad in annerly penge and my mom in sydenham and they'd met working for an electrical company called Grundig. Anyway, they lived in Penge, then they moved to Beckenham, and from Beckenham they moved to Bromley. And what sort of a couple were they? Describe them in sitcom terms. Who do you have playing them? Oh, good question. Well, there was an age gap between my parents, 12 years, so Dad was a bit older.

6:31Tom Allen: And I would say my dad would be played by, oh, who would he be played by? Somebody a bit London, actually, but a bit older um so a kind of i want to say danny dyer but not now danny dyer in sort of 10 years time um and my mum will be played by actually i'm just sort of seeing the cast of the rivals at the moment so i mean oh it's quite glamorous which we're quite well i mean i'm sexy well that's what i'm reluctant to make too much of a comparison then i'm suggesting my parents were in some sort of bonk fest and were they not well i don't i dread to think we had david baddiel on this oh Oh, yeah.

7:09And his parents were at a permanent bong fest, night after night. They didn't necessarily like one another, but they were having it away very noisily in the bedroom next to his.

7:19Tom Allen: No. So bring on the bong fest. My parents were not like that. What were they like? What were they like as a couple? As a couple, my dad, I suppose, was from an era. He was born in 1941, so he was from an era which was much more pub, a little bit more pub-based. He liked to go to the pub, see his friends. but that's not to say he wasn't around because he would just pop into the pub, say hello and then come home. Whereas mum mum was slightly more and is still slightly more conscious of what the neighbours are thinking what other people are thinking. A little bit more of a sort of classic Alan Bennett sort of figure.

7:52Ah, a touch of the hyacinth bouquets.

7:54Tom Allen: I dare say although she wouldn't particularly like that as an age bracket but yes. Yeah but a younger version a younger prettier version of that. Well well she'd like that yes. Yeah we want her to be pleased. Are they alive still? Dad, no, Dad left us four years ago. Left this mortal coil, I mean. He didn't just abandon us. But, and then, and Mum is still, touch wood, touch wood, touch wood. Well, I withdraw the house in the bouquet remark then, since she may be listening. She will be very keen to know how she's described in this. And your brother, you have a brother called James? That's right.

8:26Very good.

8:27Tom Allen: Yes, my brother is four and a half years younger than me, and he's quite different to me in that he's quite normal. and I had this posh voice and sort of had these you know aspirations of grandeur whereas actually my family are quite normal Londoners and my brother is a very normal man he's got a wonderful family and he is he works in the construction industry he's a tiler by trade and he's quite different we've always been quite different but as we've gotten older the closer we've become which of the two of them do you think brought you up very interesting I would say equally in but in ways that were quite distinct.

9:03Tom Allen: My mum, very encouraging of my flamboyant ways, indulged my theatrical fantasies and believed in me like that. Dad, much more cautious, I think testament to his background, you know, didn't like the idea of taking risks and going to showbiz. It sort of terrified him and I knew I had to prove myself to him. Can you remember having an intimate conversation with either of them? A really personal intimate conversation? Yes, yes, lots of times. mum and I sort of speak very openly I would say you know I will talk to her about things I'm worried about or things I'm aspiring towards but dad was a little bit more reserved but we did speak personally but dad would express himself in a way that wasn't verbal so he would express his love to me in particular by giving me lifts so if ever I needed a lift to the station also he would always show it through making breakfast a bacon sandwich Maybe a bowl of porridge.

9:59Tom Allen: Or a piece of toast if I was rushing out the door. That would be how he showed his affection most openly, I would say. Describe your room, your bedroom, when you were a little boy. When I was a little boy, it was quite particular. It had quite a jazzy Habitat wallpaper. Cupboards from Habitat as well. And drawers. And a green lamp, which I like to leave on at night because I got scared. And there was a radio there because I would get scared at night. And my dad encouraged me to listen to Radio 4. Which maybe explains why I've got quite a posh voice. Why? It could explain it completely. It could explain it.

10:30Tom Allen: I'm obsessed with chromity. Oh yes, as in the weather forecast. Always talking about Trafalgar and southwesterly winds. Why do you think you were scared at night? I think I didn't like being alone, actually. I think I had anxiety about... Where was your brother's room? Your brother? It was just down the corridor. But he would sleep soundly. He was a good sleeper. I didn't like to go to sleep. and didn't like to be alone. I think I was worried that my brain would play tricks on me and scare me. And I was always convinced that there was something in the wardrobe about to come out. And did you have books?

11:05Did you read books when you were a little boy?

11:06Tom Allen: Yes, I did, actually. With Famous Five, Roald Dahl, things like that. Quite classic sort of children's. Any toys that you remember with perfection? A teddy bear. With a name? Herman. Herman? Yeah, good name, right? Very good name. I actually, instead of toys, what I actually had, which I really loved, was a desk. And I had a small desk and then I begged my parents, by the time I was about seven or eight, to have a larger desk. And I was obsessed with having a, what I thought was a grown-up desk because it had a cupboard on one side and drawers on the other. It had an office chair in the middle.

11:40Tom Allen: And I liked, if ever people said, what do you want for your birthday? I'd always say stationary. That's not very fun, is it? I've got an odd child that I really liked the idea, the accoutrement of like a standard sort of office. It wasn't that I wanted beautiful notebooks and paints and felt tip pens i actually wanted kind of you know kind of a like those branded staplers and a hole punch and lots of ring binder folders i don't know why i think i thought i was well i had some filing to do i don't i think i was i thought i was in nine to five i'm with you all the way for you like this my 15th birthday all the money went into buying me a metal filing cabinet we went to a special shop on the tottenham court road it had to be second hand with a huge metal fine cabinet.

12:23And then I got home and had nothing to put in it.

12:25Tom Allen: That's what I was always thinking. But I loved opening it and closing it. So I remember having a box with index cards in it, which was fine. And I was like, what am I filing in this sort of Rolodex? I didn't have contacts I was going to retain or some sort of reference I might refer back to. Oh, well, I did use my filing index for certain things alphabetically. I did poems by different... So an A would be for Auden. Oh, very good. B would be a poem by Rupert Brooke. C would be, but even though I had a long problem with C, because I hadn't discovered Chaucer at that stage, so I discovered a poet called Charles Causley.

12:59Oh, what did he write? Well, you have to find the index file.

13:03Tom Allen: I would have to go back. Thank goodness it's under that file. D, I cheated. I had Walter de la Mer for D. I think that's okay. Do you think it should have been under Mer? Well, M, exactly. I'm not sure. Anyway, we have that in common. But try to explain to me, if you can, given you've painted these actually attractive couple of people, your parents, good, decent people. Good, decent. Who got on well. Yes. And, you know, your father enjoyed a pint at the pub, but then came home. Yes. All had supper together. Yes, pretty much. Yeah. All that was good. Why? And they were normal. Yes. Ish. By standards.

13:37You've given me a picture of them being quite normal. And your brother, was he like you? No. No. Not at all.

13:42Tom Allen: Very normal, like playing football. You've obviously thought about this a lot. Well. Why? are you like you are now? I don't know. And I've always had it that I've always been an eccentric. Ever since I could speak, I always had a posh voice. And my mum would say, oh, I don't know where he got his voice from. Oh, I don't know where he got him from. Must be a cuckoo. And so I don't know why, but I always had this posh voice. And so, of course, going to a normal primary school and then a normal comprehensive secondary school, people were like, why do you talk like that? Why? Why do you talk like that?

14:12Tom Allen: And I think they sort of saw it as an affront to them as though I was looking down my nose at them. But I wasn't from a haughty background. I just sounded the way I did, and I just had a proclivity for, you know, the finer things. It's very intriguing because people who see you now, to picture you age six, and I've seen a picture of you when very young, you're a miniature version of what you are now. Pretty much, yes. You know, you're one of the people who might, if there'd been such things, you would have had double-breasted pyjamas. I would have loved to have had double-breasted pyjamas. I loved wearing a dressing gown as well.

14:46Tom Allen: And I liked to sit, when I was very young, I'd insist my mum put a tea cosy on my head and I'd sit at the top of the stairs and pretend I was an emperor. Very good. Which wasn't particularly endearing to the other children. So you sat at the top of the stairs in your dressing ground wearing this emperor's mitre. Yes, very sort of ecclesiastical, I suppose, really. I suppose I saw myself as, well, at least an archbishop. Well, I will share this with you. When I was nine, maybe it was more, ten or eleven, there was a new pope. and I aspired to be the Pope. And my father explained to us we're Anglicans.

15:20So I set up for being Archbishop of Canterbury. Well, why not? And I wore the cosy as the mitre. No, so you did it too. With an eiter down as my coat, not the dressing gown. And my father's ties as my, whatever it's called, that you put around your neck. And I conducted a wedding between my sooty puppet and my sweet puppet, which was, I believe, the first gay wedding in the Church of England. Of course. I was so ahead of the curve.

15:45Tom Allen: You really were. I mean, you very much were. And well, if not an archbishop, you were certainly arch. But I came from a middle class family. And so it was less, I talk like my father. So that's more normal. I mean, I was in a way, I'm a bit eccentric, but I was like my parents. Whereas you were different. And were you aware at the time when you're six, seven, eight, sitting on the stairs, dressed as an emperor knowing it's irritating your very few friends where you thought what were you thinking i think i just felt like i know this is different but i've there was some sort of inner force at work that meant i was not going to go any other way you know some people might have said well why didn't you if you if you felt awkward surely your instinct would have been to to assimilate in some way but i felt the instinct to go in the opposite direction and I thought, well, if I can't blend in, I may as well just be...

16:43Were you on a scale of one to ten? This side is proud, this side is embarrassed, okay? Were you proud of your parents or embarrassed by your parents?

16:52Tom Allen: I would say I was neither one thing nor another. I loved them dearly and didn't feel... Fine. I didn't feel anything like that. So you felt quite comfortable living in this house, this suburban life, even though you're already creating for yourself a totally different way of life. Yes. I mean, I know later your mother talks about your Noel Coward phase. Well, of course. And you were actually born after the death of Noel Coward. Yes. Who was born in 1899. Died in 72. Exactly, and died in 1972. So there is this boy who was actually born in 1983, 11 years after the death of Noel Coward, who, according to his mother, is sitting in his imagination in a silk dressing gown with an imaginary cigarette holder.

17:40Quips. Did you have the record, Noel Card in Las Vegas, that you played?

17:44Tom Allen: Of course, of course. I mean, Maggie Up the Road actually was a big fan of Noel Card, so she gave me, she lent me her copy of that. Who was Maggie Up the Road? Maggie Etheridge, still there. Hello, Maggie. And very much encouraged me. Was she a friend of your parents? Friend of the parents, yeah. we had a very nice neighborhood where we lived and we knew a lot of the neighbors and lovely people and Maggie at the end of the road she saw this it was a bit later on that my Noel Coward phase began sort of about 13 14 I had a great music teacher who said we're doing a concert at the local library for the University of the Third Age which you know is the university for older people and I thought that's my crowd I've got to do a show there and she said why don't you do a Noel Coward song and I I'd sort of been loosely aware of Noel Coward and then went to the library, got out books about him and suddenly everything clicked and I was like that's who I associate with when I'd been younger I'd always associated with Kenneth Williams and then associated with Noel Coward who of course had been a big hero of Kenneth Williams and so, as I know you know but it was kind of an interesting sort of thing that all connected up but Noel Coward suddenly this idea of dressing gowns and and wearing very beautiful high starched collars and bow ties and doing these drawing room comedies and all of that and this fast way of speaking and writing songs and creating these worlds and writing these films suddenly everything to me made sense and the root of this you have not yet discovered no and has it interested you to try to discover it.

19:17Tom Allen: Well, all I can think of is that I know that he came from suburban Teddington. He did Teddington. He came from Teddington. And I think he had a more showbiz family than... Not much more showbiz. His mother was in love with showbiz. His father sold pianos. Pianos. They were a bit musical, weren't they? They were musical. But he was... So I don't know if that's a connection. Yes. Or that sort of idea of... From an ordinary suburban life, he became a world-class international star. And... He decided at an early age to travel through life first class that's it and he had made this decision and against what everybody around him had clearly said because i'm sure back then the boundaries of class were even more constricting but yet he still went no i'm not going to listen to you i'm going to be like this and i'm going to have my and his affected speech of course was a result of his impediment he had earlier on but it was a he sort of affected this new almost a new way of speaking this clipped clipped and at great speed yeah so you as a child have created this persona for yourself Tell me about your friends when you were small.

20:19Who was your first friend? Won't take long. I imagine there were very few.

20:24Tom Allen: No, there were children in the street. As in, they lived on the road where we lived. You stood at the door to the dressing ground saying, oh, there were children in the street. Maybe I should deign to meet one or two. How do you do? How lovely to meet you. I'm having a lovely day. So there were various friends who were... Who was your first one? Who's the first real friend when you're a little boy, six, seven, five, that sort of age? I think it was my friend Matthew, who was, my mum had met his mum at some sort of, you know, kind of postnatal weighing clinic. And so Matthew and I had been at nursery school together in Petswood at the Memorial Hall.

21:06Tom Allen: And a very exciting time. But I think until going to primary school, I felt like everything was fine. I could make friends. and it was only towards the end of nursery school that I found that I was starting to disassociate with the people around me. I didn't want to play with the toys there. The teachers would say, why aren't you playing with a toy? And I say, I don't know, I don't know which one, I don't want to play with a toy. And they say, well, you'll play with a toy or we'll find one for you. And it was all quite aggressive. But I think I realised then that I was starting to be different and I didn't want to do what the teachers were telling me and I wanted to live my own fantasy life a bit more.

21:38Tom Allen: And that started to grow and grow. And when I went to primary school, I felt very odd because I didn't play football with the other boys. The girls didn't want to be friends with me because I was a boy. And that sort of lived throughout primary school, really, that sense of I don't know where I fit in all of this. And as a result, I sort of created my own world even more. What was in your own world? What was going on in your head? Oh, well, it varied. I think I used to enjoy historical ideas of grandeur again. Would love to go to castles. Was obsessed with castles, kings, queens. Did you see the film The Court Jester with Danny Kaye?

22:11Tom Allen: years ago I think my nan made me watch it my grandpa oh you must see it again you'd love that Danny Kaye plays an ordinary person who becomes a court jester oh you would love it so Billy liar was the other one I was thinking obviously oh Billy liar of course there's a pure fantasy you're not unusual but you didn't meet anybody else who shared this with you no and I think to be honest if I had done I would have been furious so that's the contradiction because I'd created my own little fantasy world where I was either a king or an archbishop or some sort of high status person. You were never Superman?

22:46Tom Allen: No, wasn't interested in superpowers. Because this is the era of the Superman movies. Didn't like tights and didn't like the idea of getting changed in a phone box. Very good. Because I tell you, phone boxes aren't what they used to be. Because you're a king, you're an emperor. You're a swashbuckling. Are you a swashbuckling? No. And that was the other thing. I was always the baddie. Whenever I watched a film, I always thought it was so stupid that Flash Gordon won because Emperor Ming has this fabulous palace, wears these big collars and minces about, declaring that people must be destroyed in some way, in some camp way, walking around with a goblet.

23:20Tom Allen: That was the person I wanted to be. And I was so annoyed by the end of the film. I sort of wanted to watch films backwards. Did you feel lonely? Yes, quite a lot, actually. As a child, I didn't know how to connect with people. And the people I was most friendly with were my mum's friends, because I would like to sit with them. I felt like I was a 46-year-old and through some terrible mix-up in time and space, I'd ended up as a child having to live this child's life and I was furious about it. But I was much more inclined to sit there with my mum's friends and talk about, well, manner of things, really, including things I had no idea about.

23:53Tom Allen: Stomach cramps. They were charmed and amused by you. Well, of course. I was very funny and different and quirky. And was your mother, do you think, concerned about it? No, she absolutely loved it. loved the attention and loved that she had this posh little thing running around and could use me as a sort of entertainment thing a bit you know go oh look here he comes oh yes

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25:59These early years, before you go to your second school, give us an example of a really great day, something wonderful that happened to you.

26:05Tom Allen: Oh, oh, when I got the part of Judas Iscariot in the Easter production. Another villain. Another villain. The villains get the best lines. The ultimate villain, in fact. You might say. I mean, my gosh. and because i yes there was that one also i played the um the pharaoh in joseph and the amazing telecom dream come girl costume just right for you as well just right just right so those are good moments those are good moments on stage doing your thing you go to secondary school are you a success there well of course terrified of going to secondary school because as a comprehensive you're thrown in i think with loads of grown-ups and there was a sixth form at my school so I was 11 and a child who thought he was 46 suddenly in a world where you've got people driving their own car or you know and the sick formers could wear their own clothes so they were grown-ups amongst us all so it was quite terrifying because I knew I felt different I knew by that time that I wasn't that I wasn't straight and I was I knew I think I I knew when I was about 10 11 that I was gay and but I knew that there was no way I could tell anybody I felt very much like you gotta to keep this under wraps strangely other things were fine but how does one know age 10 or 11 one is gay well i think i was just starting to get very attached to the you know having crushes on on the boys in my year wasn't fancying girls in the way that other people seem to be and that sort of correlated with me feeling different in in the kind of other things and can you remember when you heard about it in the public sphere i mean how would one know about being gay, the idea, in inverted commas?

27:44Tom Allen: I think it started to become used as a sort of slur in the school playground. And then I was like, what does that mean? And then I was like, oh, right, that's bad. But then I was like, oh, but hang on a second. So always in a negative context, which I think, sadly, is the case for a lot of people of my era and before. I think Section 28 as well didn't really help with that. And remind people what Section 28 was. Section 28 was part of the local government act. It didn't allow them to talk about homosexuality. It couldn't promote homosexuality, is I think the wording of it, which is kind of nebulous anyway, but it certainly didn't help an environment which wasn't welcoming.

28:26Tom Allen: So I think it meant that teachers wouldn't be able to step in and say, there's nothing wrong with being gay for fear of losing their job. Did you at any stage begin to explore what being homosexual meant in terms of seeing films, reading books, I don't know, Giovanni's Room, James Baldwin. When did you first begin to explore the parameters of gayness as a boy? When I remember very vividly doing my algebra homework on a worksheet in the kitchen and the television had been left on and of course Channel 4. Typical Channel 4 and it went, these to show they used to show like queer films on a Saturday night.

29:07Tom Allen: Typical me. I was at home doing my maths homework on a Saturday night. And I looked up and I suddenly, it was a film about a priest. The name of the film is Priest. And they were, there was something happening. And then the next thing I knew, there were two men in bed together. And well, I could not, I could not concentrate on my quadratic equations, because suddenly I was bewitched by what was happening on screen. I thought this is very interesting and i think that's what i sort of thought it was i was like this is very interesting but of course like a lot of queer films at that time nothing good happened in the end it was always something bad happened so it wasn't a great but um was it was it worrying you you're saying this is interesting this is interesting but i thought i can't tell anyone and i it was worrying because i thought if anybody walks in what will i do and so then but then i knew that channel 4 showed these films on saturday nights so i would be in the kitchen hoping no one would be there but with the sound down and it was an old black and white television so the thing was i was watching all these queer films but they were in black and white with no sound they're basically silent movies i may as well have been watching like a queer charlie chaplin if i played a piano underneath it could have been like the old movies um so that was sort of my experience of of queer life was that it was black and white um and silent often mimed and um And had a sad ending.

30:30Did you explore anything to read? Did you go out and would you have gone to the library and tried to find books?

30:36Tom Allen: Well, no, but sometimes if we were in a bookshop or the library, you might, in Bromley Central Library, this would not have been in the local library, Bromley Central Library, which was kind of an absolute metropolis of knowledge, you would see a gay and lesbian, gay slash lesbian section. And I'd always look at it but never have the guts to go over there because of the fear that somebody might see me, I'd be horrified. so um so you know it was aware of it occasionally you might see something in a bookshop window but it'd be very it would only be on a trip to london that you might see yeah and you never did anything about it when you were older you never got looked to the top shelf and found a gay magazine no i didn't do that until i went to america on my own when i was 19 and i bought a gay magazine which was the most innocuous innocuous and innocuous maybe well inoculation might have been necessary who knows depends how far you're taking it i did um maybe it did inoculate me um and looked at this magazine it bought this magazine from this this shop and it was so um it was so kind of vanilla it was uh it was very innocent but i felt so embarrassed about it what what we're exploring really is here you are going to this secondary school feeling different already because of your manner your way of speaking and the rest and now finding there is this difference too because you are, you're actually realising I'm fancying boys.

31:53Tom Allen: Yeah. And most of the other boys at the school are fancying girls. That's when it all begins. Did you ever fancy a girl? Did you ever have a girlfriend or try one? I think I thought that I fancied Fenella Fielding in Carry On Screaming. Yes. Well, so that was about as close as I got. Do you mind if I smoke? There's no way for me that I would have been able to sort of pretend and go out with a girl. Like, I think I would have, people would say, will you be my boyfriend? And I go, yes. But it was sort of very innocent. There was nothing, it was really just a friendship. Who was the first boy that you said, I like you or even I love you to?

32:32Who was the first boy you made an approach to?

32:35Tom Allen: Well, it was when I was about 18, I think. I was, just became, just kind of really fancied this guy. And I don't think I told him, But I came out to him and we were in London and we were on, we were getting the tube. And I was like, I've just got to tell you this. And he was the first person I ever told. He was really nice about it. And he said, well, I'm not gay, but I really appreciate you telling me that. And I was like so embarrassed, but I was sort of glad that I'd done it. But I felt very isolated. There was no way to sort of celebrate. It didn't feel like a very celebratory thing. It felt very kind of lonely.

33:08Had you kept quiet about it until that moment in your life?

33:10Tom Allen: Absolutely. But your mother had sussed it in some way. She had, it turned out later she'd had her suspicions when I was about 16. It might have been the dressing gowns. It might have been the Noel Coward obsession, the Kenneth Williams interest. Do you think she chatted about it with your father? No. Would it have worried him? Would he have felt, oh, actually, he'd have a happier life if he weren't? I think that's what Dad did feel, to be honest. I didn't come out to my, I came out to my mum when I was 21, and she said, oh, I think I've always known. and then I didn't tell dad for another three years and I told him over the phone and he got very emotional actually because I think at the time I thought oh dad will be annoyed you know as I say he was from a different generation and I thought he would go oh like maybe throw me out of the house or something in some way I thought maybe but actually I was ashamed because that was very unfair of me because dad actually got very emotional he was very loving he was very loving and he sort of felt sad I suppose that I hadn't been able to tell him were you uh obviously eventually become comfortable with it but if you're not telling your father till you're 25 ish 24 24 25 uh are you feeling uncomfortable in yourself yes i think so a sort of a sort of lie that i feel like i've got to carry with me and i was doing stand-up at this time but i wasn't talking about being gay because i think as well i got this sense i'd come up to my friends when i was about 21 as well but i was doing stand-up when i I was 21, 22, and I felt like I couldn't talk about being gay very much because it was at that time when I don't think I got the sense that people didn't want to hear about it.

34:48And were you in your head looking for one wonderful relationship or were you somebody, I'm of an age where I knew a whole generation of people like my friend Ned Sherin, who were quite comfortable with playing the field. He would actually say, I'm going out cruising tonight, meaning he was going out, which was a very dangerous thing to say because it's the beginning of the AIDS epidemic. Right. But there were people who took amazing risks because that was part and parcel for them, the excitement, the thrill of it.

35:16Tom Allen: Yes. Was that ever something for you or were you somebody who in your romantic head is looking... I mean, Noel Cloud himself was always looking really for love. Yes, exactly, all those songs. The one, I mean, occasionally a little bit of sex on the side, but love is basically what he was after. Is that the kind of person you were when you were young? I think I didn't know what my options were. I didn't even open the menu. I think I got the sense that there was a kind of more free kind of option. But at this time, I was sort of in my early 20s. I think I was falling head over heels for people who weren't reciprocal.

35:55Tom Allen: You know, and I think, but at the same time, I don't know if any of your queer listeners will relate to this. I think I loved the idea of having unrequited love because then I could listen to the Noel Coward songs, Someday I'll Find You. Someday I'll find you. Moodlight behind you. You do very good impression. So I think that sort of, I like that idea of the kind of, that notion of pining for love but never achieving it because, of course, as well, that is emotionally a much safer place to be, a bit like the sort of fantasy life I was living as a small child. I think as an adult, this kind of notion of like, well, I'll always be in this hinterland between, you know, between romance and loneliness.

36:42At school, who was the teacher who understood you?

36:45Tom Allen: I was very lucky. I had an RE teacher called Miss Jamison, a form tutor, Miss Chandler, an English teacher, two English teachers, Miss Abbott and Miss Brown. Gosh, all women teachers. Yes. And I can see what you gave them. Charlie what did they give you? Give me a special moment with one of them Well they indulged my I got very interested in table settings as a teenager, that was another phase I went through, being very obsessed with etiquette manuals and being very precise about laying the table and doing very formal, I love the idea of formality, this is in the 1990s when everybody's wearing grungy clothes and I wanted to go ever the contrarian in the other direction and start bringing back starched napkins fish knives I saved my pocket money and had and bought fish knives and then invited um my teacher round for luncheon with my some of my friends and very kindly a couple of them came which was really tremendous and and very kind of them well there's a famous case study of somebody like you where it was explained by the analyst at the time that all this what this is about when you have a sense of order and etiquette and obsession with it and laying the table properly turning the napkins It's because there's chaos that you cannot control emotionally and in your head.

38:05You know something strange is going on, but you can create on the table and in your appearance, you can create order that is actually beautiful. And you then get people to come and join you to give you validation. Well, I think that's...

38:20Tom Allen: Gosh, you've put the nail on the head. Gosh, I'm cured. But no, it's not... That's exactly it, I think. You didn't have a problem, but you did have in your head... Yes. Things that were going on that weren't what the world was doing. Yes, exactly. And I think, well, that was about the time that I went through my butler phase, of course. This is waiting at table, rather than R.A. Butler, the famous politician. This was a point when I realised that how could I get into a world which ticked the boxes that I had in my mind of formality, table settings, aloofness as well a sort of a formality which meant not being vulnerable not showing any emotion an emotionless role and of course that was played out when I'd watch things like remains of the day and feel you know that's who I am that man there who lives to serve his master and just lays the table and creates this sense of formality is part of the ceremony I loved ceremony as well the idea of grand ceremony and procession and that kind of sort of courtly life.

39:26Tom Allen: I was obsessed with things like the manners of King George. So I just loved learning about that kind of formal, very formal life around George III and the bowing and the hierarchies. And so I thought a butler, being a butler, would be part of that. So at school, how are you doing? Are you doing well? Are you good? I'm absolutely sensational. No, but are you doing any good subjects? So what are your A-levels and O-levels? I did history, English literature, music and theatre studies. And were you expected to go to university? Yes. And I was very into history. I loved history, as you can imagine.

39:59And would you have been the first in your family that did go to university?

40:01Tom Allen: Indeed. And did you go to university? No. What happened? So they suggested I should go for an interview at either Oxford or Cambridge. Very grand. Went to the interview at Clare College, Cambridge. What a lovely building. I, as an idiot, did not understand how that interview was supposed to go. So just started telling them what a lovely college they had. and I bet it's lovely to be here, what a lovely thing it must be, and I'm head boy at my school, did I mention I really like drama, they were very polite, and duly refused my entrance, and I'd worked so hard at that point, and I didn't understand the wider world, and I think I just became a little bit, very petulant of me, that I thought, I've done what the schools asked me to do, I've done all this, I've worked very, very hard at school, I've played by their rules, and then this hasn't worked out, so do you know what, sod it, I'm going to do what I want, and that's when I really, the most sort of outrageous thing I ever did as a teenager was say to my parents, I don't want to go to university and my dad, who by this point was no longer selling cars, was a coach driver and was very keen that I would have a life that was kind of, you know, established by a university education.

41:03Tom Allen: Something he'd never had the opportunity to do. He was, I think, quite horrified. So that's when I really had to prove myself. And how did you prove yourself? You realised, did you, how much you were hurting them? I think so, but I just had to push it away. I could sense the disappointment he felt when I didn't get into Cambridge. But he, I think they, I think my mum saw that I had an inclination towards the stage. My dad thought that was very foolish and was very nervous about that. But so I had to prove myself. At school, had you been bullied because of your eccentricity and your gayness? Yes, particularly early on.

41:44Tom Allen: I'd say for the first three years, I felt very unsure of myself. And what does bullying mean? How does one define what happened? Well, various forms. I think I felt very uncomfortable, very kind of... But it was the nature of the school, really, that if you are different, then kids are looking for anything to point a finger, any reason to point a finger at you and laugh or poke fun. And because I had this posh voice and these unusual leanings, I think, you know, either people in my year group or in older year groups would shout at me or would say silly names. I can't remember what. They just shouted and said silly names.

42:19You weren't physically.

42:20Tom Allen: But then when I was in year eight, I do remember, there was a boy who'd always sort of had it in for me. And I was queuing up in the school canteen, and I must have just glanced at him or something. And he said, stop looking at me. And I said, I wasn't. He said, stop looking at me. And I said, I didn't look. Anyway, I bought my, I think it was a sponge cake from the canteen, put it in my placer pocket. And as I left via the bags, he, I don't know what the expression beat me up I suppose just sort of launched into me I remember sort of flying kick but I think that was maybe a bit more Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon he wasn't quite as advanced as martial arts but really beat me up and I just sort of stood against a wall being kicked really and sadly I think it's something that happens to some people who feel different and other kids pick on them but I didn't want to tell anybody or make a fuss about it But yeah, I just sort of didn't really tell anyone.

43:11Did you believe in God for a while?

43:13Tom Allen: That's interesting, yes. Did you ever pray about this? No, never tried to pray the gayer way. Is that what you mean? No, I didn't mean to pray the gayer way, but actually find someone who might understand. On the day when you were beaten up by this boy, you weren't going to tell anyone. You wouldn't admit it to your parents or your brothers. You go home. You didn't say prayers. You didn't, in your head, think, oh god help me or this happened today i mean just asking just that's a wonderful question um i think i had a sense of my inner uh self do you know what i mean like this kind of as i say this kind of fantasy castle i'd built in my mind of who i was and the world this kind of fantasy world i'd created um and i think that i did have a sense that somebody else was in there with me and i think that was probably a sense of god that i had at that time um or another presence and i think that but not not overtly so did your parents go to church i was taken to church when i was younger by my dad um then he took up golf on a sunday morning so we stopped going but we went to the church of england uh we went tost mary's church in bromley because our next-door neighbors gene and dennis went there and so i'd been baptized there and i went there till we went on sundays till i was about does church mean anything to you now so yes i live just a few doors down from my local church and it's a wonderful community there and since my dad died actually they've been extraordinarily welcoming and very, I do find it a comfort actually.

44:39I think the idea of religion

44:41Tom Allen: now, people often scoff at, but they think nothing of downloading, say, a meditation app or, you know, and I think a lot of the time religion can offer that, I think, that sense of the inner self, the inner life, I think.

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46:33You have your first unrequited crush at 18. Yes. You come out to your mother around 21. Three years later, your father hears the news. Do you remember losing your virginity?

46:45Tom Allen: I lost it in different bits. Ah. Classic. This may be the advantage of being gay. Explain this to me. well well i suppose i felt like things like a first kiss was kind of an enormous step for me yeah whereas sort of sleeping with somebody was kind of that's that's what we normally mean that's what we normally mean the act of darkness uh intercourse making the beast with two backs these are the euphemisms uh um not just a touch of house your father but the real mccoy but you're Right, a kiss is not just a kiss. A kiss, actually the first kiss... Can be quite continental. But also explosive. And more, maybe, than losing opportunity, I don't know.

47:34Tom Allen: Well, in a way, yeah, I think so. I do remember, in the moment of it, a strange electricity and a real... I mean, it sounds very melodramatic, very cliche to say, but it did feel like the world had stood still. There was almost a ringing in my ears. I think out of fear as much as anything, but I did feel this sense of, is this happening? I can't believe this is happening. Oh my goodness, is this happening? And I think probably made more stressful because I'd spent so long kind of imagining that it might happen or might never happen, or maybe I'll never come out. Maybe I'll always be celibate and a butler.

48:12Tom Allen: And was it good and were you happy? No, I was terrified and I was very, I was terrified. I felt very out of control for the first time because I'd suddenly let the castle wall down and felt very like, what am I doing? This is out of control. I can't do this. This is when in Kenneth Williams case, Kenneth Williams, who I knew and I worked on his autobiography with him. This is when he decided to turn his back on actual sex relations. Yes. Because he did fall in love and he tried a bit of fumbling, as you would say, a bit of the Barclays, as in rhyming slang, Barclays bank, wank. when he was in the army.

48:52I did a little bit of this.

48:53Tom Allen: Yes. But then... And those holidays with Joe Orton. Yeah, but nothing happened on those. Is that right? Nothing happened on those. Well, according to Kenneth, Joe was away literally with the fairies. Kenneth was sitting in a tweed jacket on the beach in the deck chair thinking, it's all happening over there, I can't do it. No, well, according to Kenneth, he turned his back on it when he was quite young because he couldn't cope with the physicality, he didn't know how to behave, it just confused him. so he thought it's better to be celibate well that yes he was happier to be celibate for sure and what i'm asking you was that your initial reaction that was certainly my instinct and that's what i'd always thought to myself i would do that would be my life when i was a teenager that's what i assumed i was like never am i going to be coming out or doing anything like that i shall be in my own like i say in my own little world and my own person that i can control i can control because of course as soon as you do let yourself become vulnerable you do get hurt and And to be honest, my first experiences of those kind of unrequited, very, you know, unsuitable, very, because they were clearly heterosexual men, you know, it did really just sort of floor me.

50:01Tom Allen: I just couldn't, I was, I couldn't believe somebody, somebody wouldn't. I think I did find that very difficult. I mean, you lived at home with your parents off and on until you were in your late 30s, didn't you? Well, yes, off and on, yes. I moved out for a few years. but yes that made it of course also impossible because there's no way you can bring somebody home and be like shush now please don't wake mother it feels too even for me that feels too much of a of a stereotype but i think i did really connect with the the kenneth williams thing from a very young age though and i think a lot of children did connect with kenneth williams you know when he did hundreds of episodes of jackanory and yes all those kids never mind the He was a lovable carry-on films.

50:41He was a lovable carry-on. And he was very good with children.

50:43Tom Allen: Yes, and he really had very intelligent chats. And I really connected with him as a small child because I think I just saw somebody else who, without telling me this sort of telepathy, there was something about him that I knew I liked and I knew that he understood the world as I saw it. And he was happy to be celibate. His great friend, Joe Orton, playwright, of course was murdered by his own lover. Yes. So at least Kenneth was spared that. Things can go wrong. Before we get back to your career, just finish on this arc of your emotional life. When did that change? Because unlike Kenneth Williams, you have had happy and successful relationships, have you not?

51:27Tom Allen: Yes, absolutely, yes. And when was the first one that you thought, actually, this is proper, this is love, it's going to work? When I was 38 and I met Alfie. So that's the first time I've ever kind of felt that sort of... Alfie? Alfie, yeah. How did you meet? We met both trying out for a game show and we'd stayed friends and then it was after the pandemic we started dating then. And it's still going on? Still going on. Oh, well done. Yeah, so that's... And what... He puts up with my eccentricity, sir. What sort of chap is he like? What's he like? Well, I think he's been a very calming influence on me.

52:08Tom Allen: He kind of gets my perspective on the world and appreciates it and enjoys it in a way that I often don't. Are you married? No. Is that on the cards? Maybe. Maybe. I like... You like the idea? I like the idea. Good. You remember Mrs. Patrick Campbell's great line about marriage, what marriage offers? The deep, deep peace of the double bed after the hurly-burly of the chaise longue. the joy of marriage is that nothing has to happen you can actually get into bed and go sleep whereas when you're on the game you know you're yeah i mean did you find great i mean given you'd waited so long 38 before finding a lifetime's partner i know it's not so old by today's standards did you suddenly feel oh yes well that was the thing that was most remarkable I think it was for me was how calm it felt suddenly it wasn't the kind of drama of like you know dreaming of somebody who didn't fancy me back it was suddenly I wasn't pining anymore I wasn't having this kind of this romantic kind of sense of uh of heartbreak I was like I was suddenly feeling just quite quite calm with somebody and relaxed and secure that's quite extraordinary when you're 18 you make this bold decision I'm not going to university Cambridge won't have me well fuck them I'm going to do my own thing I didn't want to swear on this podcast but yes that's what I thought that's what you thought and then had you already been in the National Youth Theatre so that I got involved in the National Youth Theatre after that decision I didn't know what I wanted to do I knew I wanted to be in showbiz and at that time really the only sort of thing you could do was to be an actor now I think it's a bit more broad people can be stand-ups or they can be...

53:56Tom Allen: Well, you've done a lot. Stand-up, presenter. Now you're going to be in Titanic in the West End. Oh, yes, yes, absolutely. So, I mean, you're doing, I mean, and you're appearing as a woman. Well, indeed. Rose's mum, Ruth. Exactly. So you now, the waterfront, literally the sinking waterfront, is all yours. Well. But when you started out at 18, you thought, well, National Youth Theatre, at least I'm going to be performing. Is that the idea? I think, and I didn't know what I wanted to do next and I thought, well, that sounds like a fun thing to do. and I sort of leapt into it and Ed Wilson, who was wonderful, he was very lovely and he auditioned me.

54:31Tom Allen: I did the classic combination of Alan Bennett's A Chip in the Sugar as my audition monologue followed by Noel Coward's Present Laughter and Iago. I did. Wow. Yes, quite a bit. That'd be a great Iago. Well, of course, the baddie. That is the baddie. And Present Laughter, perfect. Perfect. There's far too much nonsense talked about sex. So, let's just do a little bit of the breakout. moment then I want to hear what you're doing now so breakout moment is what you go to the national youth theater yes then then what happens then I worked a little bit as an actor but as because I always seemed older and was eccentric and unusual and I was losing your hair and I was losing my hair as well I was gonna say so um I didn't shave my head till I was about 24 no maybe older than that maybe did that make you feel ugly uh shaving my head no lose lose it receding it I I felt self-conscious in amongst a forest of other insecurities.

55:27Tom Allen: It was the one forest that was thinning. And I was very anxious about down lighting. And since shaving my head, I've always felt very proud of anything. Well, because you're no longer hiding. I suppose that's a metaphor in a way or allegory. Do you like people touching your head? Is it a thing? I don't mind it. People don't often. And I have, it's a little bit long at the moment. I like it the day after I've shaved it. At the moment, it's about two or three days after I've shaved it. Yul Brynner famously had a shaved head. Yes, very shiny. It was only when you had stroked it that you said you could be counted as a friend.

56:04That's another story for another episode. So I wanted to hear about your breakout moment. So when you say breakout, does that mean... Why are you here? Why have we heard of you? Why is it exciting when the call comes through saying, Tom Allen will do rosebud?

56:17Tom Allen: well again a bit like my virginity it was in stages so i think so i i started out trying to be an actor didn't work then some friends of mine suggested i try stand-up comedy i had a go at it i went in some newcomer competitions and i think because i was unusual i ended up winning and that was a lovely thing but also a bit of a curse because i didn't know what i was doing i was not in control of what my sort of on-stage clown was but yet i was booked for things and people were like, well, you've won all these competitions, you must be good. And of course, I'd walk out in front of these quite abrasive, macho, blokey crowds, stag parties and things, and start talking about my mum's hostess trolley.

56:55Tom Allen: And they'd be absolutely furious. So I was, and then I'd go to Edinburgh, and I never really found my footing in Edinburgh. I never really knew how that worked or how, you know, and the thing is, we're always creatively better when we're relaxed. But to me, the idea of going to Edinburgh, amongst all these other comedians, being compared, having other people do you know very overtly much better than you was just making me less and less relaxed so i did that for a long time and i was a stand-up for a well a long time and it's about 12 or 13 years and then then things started to change um and sarah millican very kindly who'd been my friend from back in the day of those competitions she said why don't you come and support me on my tour and that was gave me the regularity to kind of hone the things i'd unconsciously learned throughout all those years of learning how to do different rooms and dreading them and being terrified.

57:44Tom Allen: And I'd walk out in front of her crowd who weren't there to see me. And I had to learn night after night. I had to learn how to get them on side. That was a big turning point. Practice, practice, practice, practice. What is your number one trick when you meet aspiring comedians and they say, how do we do it? How do we do it? Is there ever got a, what's the one thing you tell them? I just always say, tell a story, tell your story, tell a story. That's all it is. that's all we're doing really and i think i learned my dad's adage i learned it on the job the world takes you at your own valuation so if you walk out on stage apologizing for yourself or a little bit nervous the audience will feel anxious for you and they might not they might think well you don't seem sure of yourself maybe we're not sure about you but if you walk out on stage and go you will listen to me you you coming with me i'm here you might not like it but we've going to spend this 12 minutes together then over time i learned that the audience will will come with you and that's sort of that was the turning point and then after that it was a number of things i think that maybe built a bit of profile for me most loudly on uh bake off an extra slice with joe brand yeah well you've told a wonderful story today now we're writing a story professionally you've done this is your first novel what's it called i've done two memoirs and then it's my first novel and it's called common decency it's out in may you can pre-order it now i've written it about suburbia and it's not a murder but it's about i wanted to write about people getting along living side by side as a community and i think we talk in our world there's a lot of division but i wanted to show that people live can live wonderfully together and how their secrets and and lies and their their their inner dramas actually can help bind them together oh sounds good well i hope so i hope you like well oh well done you doing that we're coming to the end now three quick questions and with the first two you've got to give me what immediately comes into your head a moment of sadness um my dad dying yeah it would be wouldn't it and when you say it was quite recently in fact wasn't it for four years and did that change you Yes, it did.

59:58Tom Allen: I still feel like I'm kind of ricocheting from it. What age was he? Can't he be that old? He was 80. Not that old, I suppose. Not from where I'm sitting. No, absolutely. Was he ill? No, it was a real shock. To him, especially. You can't keep the good stand-up down. I can't, I'm sorry. My dad died. It was a real shock. To him at least. he but alf and i had gone on our first holiday together and um where did you go we went to grenada oh i thought well we've not been able to go on holiday for so long you know of course so i thought well come on we don't know when we might get to go on another holiday let's go on a brilliant one so we went to grenada we were there for 24 hours my brother phoned me and said what had happened.

1:00:48Tom Allen: And what had happened? He'd had a heart attack on the train between Elmstead Woods and Grove Park in the view of the golf club he was a member of. And my mum had been with him. And I'd, because I'd been going... Your mum was with him on the train? On the train. They were going to see Only Fools and Horses, the musical, because I knew they'd love it and they hadn't been able to go to where they did. And you'd bought them tickets to the treat. And I felt guilty I was going on holiday or something. And I was like, go and see this, you'll love it. And they'd been rushing for the train. But it was an instant, huge shock.

1:01:15Tom Allen: But it is one of those things that we had to fly back. Very sort of, not very regal actually. Felt very much like, you know, the late queen coming back on that plane. Going away a princess, coming back a queen. And felt that sort of... Oh, you did feel that. Well... You did feel no. To bring it back to the regality. No, but seriously, you thought actually... I mean, when my father died, I was rocked for a year or two afterwards. It's a big thing. And was it a big thing for you? Huge, yeah. Enormous. And what was the effect then? You knew something had changed on the plane back. You're thinking, this is different.

1:01:50Because the responsibility of your mother, what was it?

1:01:52Tom Allen: I think, yes, the responsibility there, the fact that you realise that whatever deal you might have imagined you've struck with the heavenly powers actually was in your imagination. That you think, well, if I do this, if I arrange the table neatly, they won't go. Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. There's more to life than place settings. There's more to life than place settings. And sometimes the cutlery is cleared. And so I think that was what it felt. And a responsibility, yes, I suppose, to my mother. Because she was 12 years younger, so she was only in her late 60s. That's right, yes, yes.

1:02:28Tom Allen: She was 68, yes. Did she cope well? Yes, she's been amazing, actually. But it's just that sense of shock of, like, I always say losing someone, it's impossible to imagine because if I told you to look out the window and you see the buildings there, and then I said, if you look back now, those buildings aren't there, you would go, don't be ridiculous, of course they're there. But that's what that moment is, is kind of going, well, there was something physical there, and now it's not there. What did your dad give you in your life? A work ethic, I think, a sense that you can't control anything, you can't rely on luck.

1:03:04Tom Allen: The only thing that you can always depend on is your hard work. That is what defines you, is your industry. And your sweetest moment with him? He was making me some toast, and we were talking about his childhood, I think. And he said, the thing is, you can never have too much love. He said, you can have too much chocolate, you can have too much alcohol. He said, you can never have too much love. Lovely. And your mum, what's she giving you? Oh, gosh, well, my sense of humour. Well, I hope she's listening. Well, well, well, she might do. You get on with her. How often do you speak to her? Most of the time.

1:03:45Tom Allen: She's staying with me at the moment. Oh. Yes, so she's staying in the attic room. So she's sometimes allowed to come down to watch Frasier. And is Alf okay with that, Alfie? Alf, yes. Well, as far as I know, yes. He hasn't complained. Yes, I'm sure they can both write in and tell you. Well, no, you've got to be careful of these things. I mean, you have seriously got to be careful with these things. Yes. I mean, just to follow that through for a split second, if it was Alfie, it's Alfie. Alfie? If it was Alfie or your mum, who would have to come first? Gosh, in what scenario? In the scenario that Alfie can't cope with her upstairs anymore.

1:04:24I'm giving you a choice. I'm saying, it's difficult. Life is difficult, isn't it?

1:04:27Tom Allen: Life is difficult, isn't it? Yeah. What I'd probably do is, in that scenario, is probably leave some shoes on a bridge and then go and create a new life somewhere else. That's the way you've operated all these years. Why change the habits of a lifetime? Why change the totally new character? I'm excited. I'm kind of fascinated by that man who dressed up as an admiral and went to a Remembrance Day parade. But also was doing it year after year. Yes. And increasing the honours that he gave. That's the sort of thing I can imagine I would end up doing. I'm fascinated by him. But he got away with it.

1:04:58Tom Allen: He got away with it. Years on end. People were saying we didn't realise someone of that rank was coming to us because I think it was a fairly sizable town. But it was a local Armistice Day Remembrance Sunday event and he turned up full kit for joining the salute. Salute. Admiral. I think, you know, and as well to pretend not to be a lowly shipman but to be an admiral of the fleet. When I next go to Rome and I'm in St. Peter's Square, I'll look up at the window and look at that because the present Pope looks a bit like you. Oh, don't say that. Maybe this could be my Jonathan Price with the last one.

1:05:31Tom Allen: That's the Pope. That's the Pope. This could be your new way of life. And I always have liked balconies. That was one of my things as a child. I always dreamed of having a balcony. Oh, wonderful. I think you should go in a papal robe. I'm not very good on balconies. I know people say, as Mussolini used to say, give me a balcony and I will give you Rome. But you look a little bit like Mussolini, actually. There we go. You could do a one-man show as the great villains of history. leaders of Italy yes after you've done Titanic what a lovely thing I think we will create a one person show Garibaldi that's a moustache I think was he Iago Italian yes yes of course they're all there it's Othello the more of Venice yeah Venice I think so oh well there we are we've got it all a lovely one man show that's what I fancy a moment of joy from particularly your early years suddenly I say there's a moment of joy of ecstasy oh when I first learned to ride a bike and I had been practicing my friend's garden and I kept falling off and then we got home and I said to somebody in the street, can I borrow your bike?

1:06:35Tom Allen: And then I just did it. And I remember riding past our neighbors opposite Elka and Les and their daughter Sarah, who's a few years older than me. And they were having dinner in their dining room at the front. And I waved to them and they got up and waved. They were so excited to see me riding a bike. That's also a lesson for entertainment. Get on the bike and ride it. Get on the bike. Write it right across the stage. You're glorious. My dating profile, of course. What have you learnt from life? What has life taught you? Never save anything for best. I like to wear formal clothes, but don't save them.

1:07:15Tom Allen: Because the time will come when that particular outfit won't fit anymore. So just do it now. Never save anything for best. I think that's it. Well, I think you've given us one of the best podcasts we've had. please I'm sure that's not true that's very kind of you but thank you for letting me plug my book and I always say that but I don't always mean it on this occasion I do mean it you really are one of the best well you are very and I have to say Giles you've always been very very generous to me and I remember in those early days when I was starting to get a little bit further ahead I was booked on just a minute and I was quite terrified of you because I knew you were connected you were the linchpin to so many of my heroes and I was quite terrified of going on just a minute and you were so generous and so warm and I remember you turned to me halfway through and said you've made one of the best debuts on this show, which was I'm sure more than generous, but was very well, very much gratefully received, so thank you.

1:08:09Tom Allen: Go to person to tears all over again. Don't, don't cry. That's enough for now. Tom, thank you so much. Thank you, Jazz. I enjoy every conversation that we have on Rosebud, but I have to say I really, really enjoyed my time with Tom Allen and I have pre-ordered his novel Common Decency. It's not out yet but if he writes as amusingly as he talks it's going to be a very good read and Titanic Titanic Titanic is the show he's currently in in the West End of London at the Criterion Theatre. I recommend that as well. So Tom Allen this week's guest on Rosebud. Who will we have next week? We've got some very interesting people coming up.

1:08:53Big names and unexpected names. That's what Rosebud is all about. It's also really all about you because you're listening and you're writing in. Thank you very much indeed for the emails that you send to us. I don't see them all. Harriet sees them all and people have absorbed that. Here is one to Harriet. If you're new to the podcast, Harriet Jane is our producer and this is somebody who has written to her. It's from Lois Burwell and she writes dear harriet i know you have a thousand emails or more to reply to please don't feel obliged to respond i thought though you might enjoy some of these photographs i think the first might be of interest to both childs and you it's a photograph taken i believe during or shortly after world war ii when my mother nora burwell maiden name dilly was the first telephonist who worked on the switchboard at Grosvenor House.

1:09:48I kid you not. Well, it's a wonderful photograph. We must find a way of putting that out there on social media so people can see it. Grosvenor House on Park Lane in London's Mayfair is where we record so many of our episodes of Rosebud. We have our own studio here, courtesy of Grosvenor House, and it's had apartments and been a hotel since the end of the 1920s. And here is this wonderful photograph of Nora, mother of Lois, looking very chic and smart and young, sitting at this, well, it's when people, it was, you know, people made a phone call. There was a switchboard and somebody called in and then you sort of plugged one switch into another switch and that's how you connected people.

1:10:33That's fantastic. It is so evocative. If you have an email you want to send us, please do. it's simply hello at rosebudpodcast.com oh somebody said it's a present as well this is bedside reading that looks really intriguing it's a series of novels written by a listener called guy hale and i think they're murder mysteries set in william shakespeare's era oh look i've just picked up one by chance all are yesterday's quotation of course they've all of course got Shakespeare quotations as the titles, Sleep No More, Put Out the Light, The Croaking Raven. Anyway, if you like a history mystery, these have got very inviting covers.

1:11:17They're by our listener Guy Hale, and I'm going to dip into them, see what they're like. If you like our podcast, please leave a review and spread the word. And if you'd like to watch us on YouTube, I have to say, Michelle, my wife, is loving watching us on YouTube. And she doesn't really, well, we've got a television where you can just go to YouTube and you then say Rosebud Podcast and up it pops. But you can do it on your phone as well. Giles Brandreth's Rosebud, Rosebud Podcast, that's where you find it. And, well, there are a couple of dozen episodes of Rosebud there, which I think are proving popular.

1:11:54In fact, we've had more than a million people downloading on YouTube already. So it's a good different way of seeing the podcast. And occasionally, because it is simply a podcast filmed, you will see get a guest appearance from, as they now are calling her, Harriet Hitchcock Chain. Because Harriet is making cameo appearances in most of the episodes. She is adjusting a microphone with one hand, putting a glass down with another. Or in case of our conversation with Wes Streeting, marching boldly across front of frame. So if you want a glimpse of Harriet, our truly professional producer, do tune in to Rosebud on YouTube.

1:12:38And if you want to join Harriet and me on Sunday mornings, and some people, my wife particularly, thinks twice a week of you, Giles, jabbering away is enough. But I tell her I'm not jabbering away, I'm listening. But anyway, if you'd like to hear Harriet and me chatting, we do a Sunday episode some Sundays it's actually me reading one of my history mysteries the Candlelight Murders which is set in Victorian London and then that's on alternate Sundays and then on every other Sunday it's either Harriet and me on a trip down memory lane or us sharing family secrets to do that there's a small subscription you join us via Patreon so you simply go to patreon.com forward slash Rosebud patreon.com forward slash Rosebud fit in the form and you can catch us on a Sunday as well but we're free available to you whenever you want us every Tuesday every Friday this has been Rosebud I'm the presenter Harriet Jane is the producer but you are the reason we're here thanks for being with us cue the music

1:13:54Thank you.

1:14:31Rosebud is a Plain Jane production produced by Harriet Jane, hosted by me, Giles Brandreth, with music by Phil Leppard, and recorded this week at the JW Marriott Grosvenor House in London's Park Lane. Room service.

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