Alastair Campbell

0:00This is an iHeart Podcast.

0:30Experience cloud-like comfort with high-resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity, and the modular pieces can be rearranged anytime. Check out washablesofas.com and get up to 60 % off your Anabay sofa, backed by a 30-day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping or restocking fees. Every penny back. Upgrade now at washablesofas.com. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply. You are listening to Ruthie's Table 4 in partnership with Montclair. People often say they'd be too nervous to cook a meal for me.

1:13So imagine how I feel hosting a podcast today with Alistair Campbell, whose podcast with Rory Stewart, The Rest is Politics, is the UK's top podcast. Alistair is a journalist, an author, a broadcaster, and a defining political figure of our time. I've known him since the early days of New Labour and remember the excitement of their 1997 victory and the first years in government. Richard was a strong supporter and the architect of the Millennium Dome. There was such optimism and enthusiasm, hope and rigor of the Blair government. Alistair was Director of Communications and Strategy at the heart of it all.

1:51While spending a career advocating for strong political values, he's also been a prominent activist for understanding the responsibility and treatment of mental health in our society. He's here with me today in the River Cafe. We're going to talk about food and family, food and podcasts, food and values, food and health. And how do I really feel about hosting him today? I'm not nervous at all, just honored and excited. Oh, thank you. You were doing a podcast upstairs. Just been recording. Talking about food? No. Did food come up? I don't think it did. Recording this week's Q &A with Laurie Stewart.

2:29I know, we love the Q &A. You told me that you don't really think much about food, which is fine. Look, if I wake up and I'm hungry, I'll eat. But I'm not a foodie. I like nice food. I remember we had meals together. Yeah, but I'm not one of those people who can tell you six months after what I had and how amazing it was. And I'm not very good at describing taste. When you were a journalist, when you were working on the newspapers, was there a kind of, it's over now, let's go down to the pub and drink and have something to eat. But it was mostly alcohol, was it? I'm afraid it was, yeah. So food was...

3:02Very occasionally. There were no three martini lunches or... Well, there were long lunches. But what were they like? My favourite restaurants was the Noshery in Hatton Garden. And you were working for who at the time? I was working for the Mirror. Would you take somebody that you were interviewing out to a meal? Not interviewing. I wouldn't do interviews in a restaurant because there's so much background noise. But I used to have a monthly lunch with Ted Heath. Did you? What was that like? He was quite grumpy. What was he doing at the time? He was a backbench MP causing a lot of difficulty for Margaret Thatcher, hence useful to me as the Taney Mirror.

3:34My best political lunch companion was probably Alan Clarke because he was such a good laugh. What was he like? I mean, he was exactly as you think he was like. He was rumbustious and indiscreet and funny and irreverent and obsessed with women and, you know, just everything. Did he drink? I don't remember him being a big drinker, no. So when you went out for these lunches with the beaters? Oh, you would drink, yeah. In fact, when I had my, you know, I've talked to you before about when I had my breakdown in the 80s. When I was in hospital, they asked me how much I'd been drinking in the build-up.

4:07And the last full day I had before my breakdown was, I went through it and I had lunch with David Mellor, former Tory cabinet minister. And he wasn't drinking that much. He had maybe a couple of glasses of wine. But we got through more than two bottles. And then going back to the office, jacket on the chair, which was the old trick of, you know, you pretend you're there by leaving your jacket on the chair. Oh, I see. When you go out for lunch, you leave your jacket on. No, lunch is fine. Lunch is kind of not frowned upon at all, but when you get back from lunch, put your jacket on, then you go back out to the pub or you go back to a drinking club, whatever.

4:47And this was one of those days where it went, literally I was drinking all through the day, in and out of the office. You show your face for 10 minutes, you make a couple of phone calls, then you go back to the pub. And by then, so I realised I had a drink problem. I didn't think I ate at all that day. And then two days later I was in hospital. What happened? I cracked up, got arrested, banged up. and then stayed in the hospital for a bit. Was it just a proper hospital? Can't remember. Was it a hospital? Psychiatric. Or was it a psychiatric hospital? What year was that? 1986. Can't remember anything about the food there at all.

5:27Or being hungry, or did they give you drugs that made you... I was very drugged, yeah. And then came back to London, off work for a bit, then I went back to the Daily Mirror. I'd left the mirror by then. Was there a way of being healthy that included probably they wanted you to sleep, they wanted you to eat, they wanted you to not drink? Yeah, I did all that. I didn't drink. I didn't drink for 13 years. You didn't drink for 13. Yeah. So that would have been 1999. And even then I didn't really drink much. Yeah. And food, I think by then, I mean, the most important thing really was that Fiona stayed with me because, you know, I think I probably worried that she wouldn't.

6:03And by then I think she had become a very good cook. I've always liked good food. I think you do. Yeah. It seems to me that you... But I just don't think about it much. You'd never hear me... It's very rare you'd hear me say, I had an amazing meal last night. Yeah. Very rare. I'll tell you the other thing when diplomacy, when there was one year, I can't remember what year it was, 98, 99, and Britain, you know, when we were in the European Union, the good old days, and you had the rotating presidency. Yeah. We had the presidency, So Tony wanted to have face-to-face meetings with all the other European leaders in quite a compressed time frame.

6:41So there were some days where we were doing breakfast in one capital, lunch in another capital, dinner in another. And as we went through it, we'd sort of talk about, you do, you get on the plane after, you say, oh, the food was pretty shit, wasn't it? Oh, God, that was an amazing meal. So we ended up sort of... So you just said that was an amazing meal. You told me you never would have said that's an amazing meal. Yeah, but that might have been Tony who said that. No, anyway, we ended up... It's true. No, we ended up sort of giving, I can't remember if it was stars or marks out of 10, but grading the food of all the different capitals.

7:10So here's a question for you. Who do you think won out of all the European capitals for our favourite meal of the European tour? Wow, not Italy and not France. No. What did it have been? Scandinavian country? The runner-up. Sweden? The runner-up was Denmark. Belgium? Ireland. Ireland? Ireland. Ireland, that's so cool Do you remember what the meal was? The starter was salmon and the main course was beef but it was just amazingly done I only remember this because I put it in my diary and that's how good it was for me to write about food in my diary and then there was a sort of chocolate mousse type thing and by the way I'm addicted to chocolate And you can remember this from 30 years ago?

7:54Yeah, and I can remember the fact that we were really happy that France didn't do very well Francis got a mid-table I remember Mark Carney describing a meal that he had at the Vatican and I remember when we interviewed Tony Blair talking about the food that he remembered as well what about if somebody was to judge Britain in terms of having food at Downing Street well it'd be tricky because you didn't have a cook well there's no kitchen it's amazing worth the name it's amazing so there is a kitchen but it's tiny and Fiona used to be in charge of getting in chefs to do they did miracles considering I remember once going into the kitchen it wasn't I think it was Gordon Ramsay I can't remember his name anyway when I remember going in there and it was like a tiny kitchen and he was making like this really complicated meal for a visiting head of government and their family and what have you so no Downey Street I do why do you think that is well for a start Downing Street's like a house, and the whole complex is just a collection of quite small rooms.

9:02And I guess it is a way of saying we're grounded. I mean, I don't know if Tony told you, but I think there is now a cafe in Downing Street where you can go, but there wasn't. We were there. There was nothing. You used to go out. Tony would regularly have a Pret sandwich for lunch. That's what he said. He said they had to. I mean, so if you think that you're serving the office of the prime minister, whether it's a house or a palace, you would think that the office of the Prime Minister would have. And it is kind of shocking, isn't it, that it's considered that you have to think as well as being Prime Minister to you being Prime Minister.

9:35What are we going to get for lunch? He would quite often nip up to the flat and just make himself some toast. You think that will change? I think in the current anti-politics mood, it's hard to see any of that stuff changes. And, you know, I don't know if you told you, when he was at Chequers, people think Chequers, grand blah, blah, blah. They had to pay for all that stuff. If it was an official government thing, fine. If Macron goes there or if Trump came over and when he met Theresa May there, that's government funded. But if you're at Chequers for the weekend and just invite a load of friends down, you've got people serving you, but you pay for it.

10:07Now, people might say, well, why shouldn't you? But I think other world leaders find it very odd. Very odd. Very odd. So how would you, if a world leader came? To Britain. Yeah, they would go to the palace? No, I think if you, look, I think mass catering is very hard wherever you do it. So if you're doing a state banquet with, I don't know, 150 people, it's quite hard. But no, I think most of the time they think Britain does a pretty good job. And I think in Downing Street, most of the chefs who come in and do it, because they're good, they'll serve up good food. I remember when we used to see each other, it was always in situations where either you or Fiona were saying, come on, Tony, you've got to go.

10:48You kind of look at your thing. You were quite scary, but you were such a presence, the two of you. Thank you.

11:24shoptherivercafe.co.uk to place your order now.

11:35Let's be real. Life happens. Kids spill. Pets shed. And accidents are inevitable. Find a sofa that can keep up at washablesofas.com. Starting at just$699, our sofas are fully machine washable inside and out. so you can say goodbye to stains and hello to worry-free living. Made with liquid and stain-resistant fabrics, they're kid-proof, pet-friendly, and built for everyday life. Plus, changeable fabric covers let you refresh your sofa whenever you want. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa anytime to fit your space, whether it's a growing family room or a cozy apartment.

12:16Plus, they're earth-friendly and trusted by over 200 ,000 happy customers. It's time to upgrade to a stress-free, mess-proof sofa. Visit washablesofas.com today and save. That's washablesofas.com. Offers are subject to change, and certain restrictions may apply. Parking shouldn't slow you down. ParkWiz gives every driver a shortcut. Book ahead, save up to 50%, and skip the hassle of circling the block. Park smarter, park faster. ParkWiz. Download the ParkWiz app today and save every time you park. I was born in Yorkshire. My dad was a vet from the Hebrides. So actually one of my first food memories was in the Hebrides in Tyree, where he was from, and they had this thing called carrageen.

13:01What's that? Well, it's made of seaweed. Oh. And it wasn't really to my taste. But I remember my grandfather sort of, I could sense his disapproval if I didn't like it, so I kind of pretended. So they would go out and forage for the seaweed? Yeah, and they turn it into a kind of, it's a sort of grey, porridge-y, moussey type thing. I'm probably getting it all wrong, but I do remember that. But my mum was a farmer's daughter. Both my parents were Scots, but we grew up in Yorkshire. And it was very, very simple. And what I remember of food as a child is a lot of potatoes, a lot of minced beef, vegetables, yeah, but not as much as you would eat probably today.

13:42my mum was a brilliant pudding maker and I've always had a sweet tooth. What did she make? Well her trifles were probably better than any trifles I've ever tasted. Describe it. Sort of fruit at the bottom, she'd do the sponge thing, I remember watching her make trifles, she'd sort of have it all different bits and then, and she'd do them all as individual bowls. Oh I see, so there wouldn't be one big thing. No, she'd do it all sort of you know the little thing and the thing and the thing and the cream and the custard and the blah. so I've got a very big thing about it she was a fantastic shortbread maker shortbread was always on the table I love shortbread, do you?

14:16well her shortbread was amazing it's very buttery shortbread she made a love tablet it's a kind of Scottish fudge thing and I do, and I'm not just saying this because of my upbringing and I'm glad to say that my daughter the other day she said Burns Night is her favourite night of the year she has these little parties she gets haggis in is that grace? yeah, yeah So we did eat a lot of haggis and stuff like that. But very simple. I don't remember much about food. But did she have a job, your mother? No. So she was a home cook. How many of you were there in the house? Four kids. Four kids? Yeah.

14:49That's a lot. Three boys and a girl, yeah. And every night would you sit down to dinner? Yeah, pretty much, yeah. What was that like? It was noisy. My dad was not always there because he was a vet, on call a lot. But my mum was very, very organised in the kitchen. I can remember, you know. It sounds to me like she was a really good cook. You know, she made those desserts, and she put food on the table for four kids every night. Three times a day. Three times a day. Probably you do have that organization, but maybe it's for other things. For other things, definitely. But not for food. I can remember just the thing of watching different pots and pans at different stages of boiling and sometimes overflowing and sometimes turning them down.

15:29But she sort of had it. She had it all under control. Did your other brothers and sisters? Two brothers and sisters. Did they ever go in the kitchen? My sister, yes. My oldest brother, a bit, he considered himself. Both my brothers are dead now, but Donald, the oldest one, he considered himself to be a great pastor chef. Oh, yeah? Yeah, I'm not sure he was, but he considered himself to be that. But no, we weren't. My mother's sport is on the food front. I love sport as, you know, I love virtually all sports. But I'm not a massive fan of tennis. And I think one of the reasons is during the Wimbledon fortnight, my mother would always pre-make the meals so that she could carry on watching the television.

16:08And the only things you could pre-make in those days were cold salads. So I used to get home, wouldn't I? Soup, a hot main course, and then a trifle. You were spoiled, yeah. Yeah, and instead you get back, there's a couple of pieces of cheese and a bit of ham and a bit of lettuce and a few bits of tomato. But she was watching the tennis. She was watching the tennis, yeah. Good for her. So home, I used to go on all our holidays were in Scotland. All my teenage years were at my uncle's farm in Ayrshire, working on the farm, and his wife, my Aunt Jean, who's the only one of that generation still alive, she was a good cook, but again, very simple.

16:48It was potatoes, it was mince, it was fish, it was pies, but it was really good, hearty, wholesome food, but not the stuff that you're going to necessarily write home about. Your parents were working. Your dad came home. There were four kids. Did your parents entertain? Did they have people over? They had parties, you know, maybe once or twice a year. Going out to restaurants, I don't remember at all, apart from every Sunday we used to go to the Scottish church in Bradford and then we'd go to the original Harry Ramson's near Ilkley. I don't know what Harry Ramsden's is. Fish and chips. And here's another thing.

17:32You're getting all my food secrets now, Ruthie. I've got an absolute aversion to ketchup. You don't like it. I hate it. I can't be near it. That's fine. I can't look at it. Okay, let's go back. Let's trace that back. I don't know what it is. I think it's to do with blood. Remember your first time you've had it? Yeah. At Harry Ramsden's. Okay, they put ketchup on fish and chips? They don't, but it's everywhere. Everybody's putting it on. Salt, vinegar, lots of ketchup. But I think it's to do with blood. Maybe. Or maybe it's just the taste, you know. A lot of people don't like it. Well, I can't remember the taste.

18:00I can't remember the last time I took it. I've always hated it. I've always hated it. And so do you have it in the house at home? Do the kids like it? No, and if it is in the house, I'll get rid of it. Then you don't want to have it. Is there any other food like that that you don't want to have around? That's the only food. And Grace, when she was a kid and she used to want to annoy me, if we were in a restaurant, if she'd find some ketchup and then she'd rub it on my arm. Yeah, nice. And she doesn't understand. And I mentioned this on a radio interview once, this fear of ketchup. and I got in, somebody, a guy got in touch, well, loads of people got in touch with me saying, I've got that as well.

18:28Yeah. And it's got a name, it's called self-thomophobia. And what does that mean? Anything that looks like that? It means an irrational fear of sauce. Yeah, any sauce. No, I'm fine with brown sauce, I'm fine with salad cream, but ketchup cannot be near me, ever. Yeah, interesting. And do you like Marmite? No. Yeah, because I don't either. Do you know what, there's lots of foods I've never eaten Marmite. I say I don't like, I've never eaten, I've never eaten yogurt. Now, I probably have because it's probably been in food that I've eaten. And that's irrational as well. I don't like seeing people eat yogurt.

18:59I don't know what it's about. I don't know if it's rational or if there is a rational or not rational. It's just something that we all have. When I first realized that there was this whole kind of food thing going on was when I was a student and I went to France. How old were you? 20. Yeah, so you were at your university. I was at Cambridge and I went to... And I think the thing is, if you've grown up with quite traditional food tastes, you either go exotic or you go and you carry on with what you've known. And then I got to France. And you won't believe this, the first time I ever ate a pizza was in France.

19:34What year would that have been? That would have been 1977. So when you were in Cambridge, could we just go back one step? Cambridge was then, that was carried on being spoiled because you go in, again, you get three meals a day put on the table for you. I was at Keyes College. The breakfast, I can remember. What were they? Anything you wanted. Anything you wanted. And I used to have two poached eggs. My mum, by the way, was an amazing poached egg maker. Two poached eggs, one sausage, one piece of bacon, and one slice of brown toast. And that was pleasure for you? I did it every day, so it must have been.

20:08And then I'd sort of have a light lunch, and then in the evening you go into the hall, and it's three courses again. But I went to France, and I discovered things that I didn't know existed. like what? Mussels. Oh. Onion soup. I think if I was only allowed ever to eat one thing, your last meal, whatever, the fish soup, the first ever fish soup I had in Nice. Oh, in Nice. It was in the old town in Nice. So was it a bouillabaisse or was it a soup? No, it was a very traditional soup, a riz crouton, that was it, a bit of garlic to rub on the thing. And it was like, I was blown away by it. And then there's that other thing in Nice, it's called soccer.

20:44Yes. S-O-C-C-A, and they make it in the street. and sometimes when I was hungry, I'd go out. There's a guy, I lived in this place called Plas Garibaldi and there's a guy in the corner that he made it all day and if I was hungry but couldn't be bothered going out, I'd just go to him, give me a plate of it, take it back to my flat and that was my dinner. It is delicious. We make it here and we call it Farinata because it goes from the coast, from Nice. You know how when you go around the whole border down to Genoa from Nice, it kind of still feels that if you're in Italy that you're in France and if you're in France, it gets more Italian.

21:18And this street food, which is socca, is made with chickpea flour and olive oil and water. It's really, and now we make it, it's all around the coast of Nigeria. We make it, you might have some at lunch today. And it's great for people who don't eat gluten because instead of bread, we give them a piece of the farinata. It's interesting that you mentioned that, that you can remember that. But it felt, of course, Nice had, Nice felt quite Italian. What were you doing there? I was, when I did language at university and that was my year abroad, I really struck lucky. I was teaching 12 hours a week in a French school.

21:50Did you explore the food down there? Do you remember? Yeah, I didn't explore the food as a foodie. Yeah, no. But I struck lucky. I got some very good friends. I got people who I never cooked there, ever. And I didn't have a kettle. Yeah. If I was making tea, I mean, I'm a massive coffee drinker now, but I wasn't there. And if I was making tea, I would boil water. I think that was the only thing I had in my flat was a pad. instead of a couple of cups. So I'd go in and about, and I'd developed a network of people who would cook for me. That's great. And then if I had nobody, I'd go to the university.

22:26I had access to the university, an East University. And also I was busking with my bagpipes. Yeah. And that was often a way of restaurants would call you in. Were you quite broke? I wasn't, no. Busking made a lot of money. Did you make money then? Made a lot of money, yeah. Accidentally, I went to, do you know Ayers, which is where they make all the perfume? Yeah, of course, that's where, yeah. So I went to Ayers one day, I had my backpipes with me, and I just thought, oh, it's a bit embarrassing because it's so loud. And I found this sort of tiny space in a quiet car park, and I was just tuning them up.

22:57And suddenly people were coming out of their cars and standing around, and then eventually they started throwing money at me. I'd never thought of busking, so I became a busker. Oh, you see, that's how it happened. Yeah. Because you were just... Yeah. And then that night I went to the Zonne Pietone, the pedestrian precinct in Nice, and I set up and within 10 minutes I had a crowd, within 20 minutes I had people throwing in money and then there was a guy who ran an Italian restaurant in the street. No, he actually wasn't the guy who ran it, he was a musician who played the guitar there in the evening and he said, do you want to come and play for our guests?

23:31And he went round with a hat and I ended up, I made a lot of money that year. When you went on those summers to the Hebrides, is that where you learned? No, I learned as a child in New Yorkshire, and my dad, he was a player. Is that very often that in families you think it goes? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, yeah. Is it very hard? I think it's one of those things if you take to it quickly, it's hard to be a really good player. But, no, to get the basics as long as you've, yes. Have you taught your children to your children? No, Grace keeps saying that I should have taught her, but they never really express that much of an interest.