Bonus: Dame Jacinda Ardern on unexpectedly becoming a world leader

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0:47Just take me to your life as the prime minister. That is a big deal. It was relatively unexpected. I was the deputy leader in 2017 when New Zealand had an election, and my boss decided that he was unlikely to win, and so he was seven weeks out from the election. Who was your boss? Andrew Little was his name. Was he Labour? He was. He was an ex-trade union lawyer and president of one of our bigger trade unions. A great guy, but was struggling in the polls. So he came to work one day and then just quit and nominated me to be the leader. and so I suddenly found myself campaigning unexpectedly to be Prime Minister.

1:28How much time was there between being made leader and having to run for election? About roughly seven weeks. Oh, so soon. That's very short. That's very short. Very short. Yeah. I mean, we already had the billboards up with his name on them. Have you met Kamala? I have a couple of times. Not since she had the same experience. Same experience. So, you know, there are parallels being thrust into the situation. Yes, it was a real situation. And then, of course, New Zealand has an MMP system, so it means you don't always know who's going to be able to form government. So we then, after the election, went into negotiations for a couple of weeks.

2:08During those negotiations was when I found out I was pregnant. and then three-ish days later the small party who was making a decision over who they would form a government with chose us and I became prime minister. Governed for five years until I... Now we know that and I do have to say, you know, I said in my introduction how you are heroic and the world was watching you. Thankfully I didn't know that at the time, which is quite helpful, I think. You didn't know that? No, not really. I remember snippets during COVID. I remember the UK media covering our COVID response. And, you know, at times thinking, you know, everyone's just doing the best they can.

2:56And yet I remember thinking, how could things that are meant to be based on science, how do they become political? I feel the same way about climate change. You know, these issues where actually we have an evidence base around the problem that exists. And sure, you know, there might be different interpretations around what the best thing is to do. But so often now politics creeps into things where I just don't think it belongs. You know, and nothing's ever universal. But in New Zealand, some of those values of actually we're an island nation where we expect people to do their bit to look after one another.

3:30That mentality really shone through. How did you meet? Well, my father very proudly, I remember him arriving and announcing very proudly to everyone, Don't worry, I have bought the bread maker. Isn't it amazing how bread was such a huge thing? Bread became such a thing. Fascinating, fascinating. I remember, of course, we had, just like everyone else, we had worries about flour and yeast shortages. And I remember walking home after we'd made an announcement and just saying, everyone, look, supermarkets are going to stay open. You don't need to hoard. And it's going to be okay. I was walking home from Parliament towards Premier House, and as I was walking over the overbridge, there was this couple and they flipped open the boot of their car and pulled out a big five kg bag of flour.

4:16And they turned and they saw me and immediately said, look, it was the only thing, there was the only size we could get, you know, they were full of apologies. I was like, it's fine. It's fine. But it almost felt illicit, you know, to have a large quantity. But so we had the bread maker. Yeah. And, of course, my mum bought everything out of her store cupboard. And then we would just do what others did. And we just cooked at home. Yeah. One of the great concerns of COVID, many, many concerns, was poverty. Yeah. The effect was, you know, awakening for many, many people that children who didn't go to school didn't have lunch.

4:58Yeah. How many families depended on the school lunch? Yeah. Very often it was their only meal of the day. Yes. Did you approach that? We were mindful of that. I remember when we were planning for having to be in lockdown, thinking about what about our rough sleeping community? How do we house them? What about those who experience family violence because the stress of these circumstances exacerbate it? And for some children, their relief from family violence is school. And what about, of course, those on on low incomes? And so we thought about all of that. that we increased rates in our benefit system.

5:39We were providing essentially forms of care packaging for families, both of essentials but also of school educational equipment so that schooling could continue at home. We used two of our TV channels to run education shows in English and in Maori. I remember that constantly being on my mind. I was the Minister for Child Poverty Reduction, so kids were always in the front of my mind. And so we did what we could, but it was tough. And is it food poverty in New Zealand a big issue? Yes, it is. We created a lunches in schools program when we were in office, targeting low-income schools, and we provided universal food in schools.

6:22We hated the idea of stigma for kids. So if we were going to provide a program, it would be for the kids, it would be for the teachers. Everyone would have access. because before that, you'd have kai boxes, so kids would have to go and ask, and I didn't want that. We did the same for period poverty, so we've put period products into all New Zealand schools because we wanted to overcome stigma around those issues as well. What I really want is to ensure that people have dignity, and there is dignity in financial security, and yes we have to have a welfare system that needs to be a decent welfare system because you can fall on hard times you can lose your work you can find yourself an illness you can find yourself suddenly caring for children on your own so we need to have a dignified welfare system we can't forget that the core work still required of lifting incomes decent jobs job security decent housing

7:57We'll see you next time. Amico Mini Plus. Only at Costco. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.