From The Archive: Steve McQueen

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1:12Just last week, I interviewed Elton John, Greta Gerwig, Ian McKellen, and Guillermo del Toro. Go to Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you in two weeks. You are listening to Ruthie's Table 4 in partnership with Montclair.

1:37Sitting here in the River Cafe on a sunny Monday morning, with chefs in the kitchen making ravioli with Girols, and waiters laying tables in the garden, the uncertain world we live in feels miles away. The artist and filmmaker Steve McQueen does not separate the world of beauty and the world of suffering in any of his work, political oppression, slavery, sexual inequality. Steve and I met in 1999 when he won the Turner Prize for his radical video art, and we once had dinner together with President Obama. It was clear that the only person President Obama was interested in talking to was Steve McQueen, and he didn't want to share him with anyone else.

2:26Now, a few years later, I finally have Steve McQueen all to myself, and being a generous person will share him with you.

2:39Steve and I share a hero in Paul Robeson. We share the same concerns for equality and justice and food. And today we're going to talk all about that and more. Thank you, Steve. Thank you for inviting me. Tell me about growing up in London. You lived with your parents in West London. And what did you eat? Yeah, we grew up. I grew up in, firstly, Shepard Bush, West London. My relationship with food really starts with the market. I was the kid who was carrying the bags behind their mother you know because basically I would have to go with her because you know I was the sort of decked a pair of hands to carry the shopping back home food was a way of actually getting to go London because if someone had said to my mother there's you know you could get so and so um sea bass in this market for this amount of money she will be there so people used to talk about where can they get particular kind of food and fresh produce.

3:36Yeah, where was your mother born? My mother was born in Trinidad, but she grew up in Grenada. And my father was born in Grenada. How old were they when they came to London? My mother was about 14, 15. I think she was about 15 when she came to London, I think in the early 60s. And my father was a little bit older. I think maybe he was about 21. I think he came early 60s too, but not at the same time. And so do you think her mother had taken her to the market? As you say, the market does introduce us to a culture. It introduces us to a city. It's the first place I always go when I go to any town, in any city, in any country.

4:14But tell me more about the smells of the market and what it looked like for you and your mother's experience of the market. Well, in fact, what happened was that a lot of majority of people coming from the West Indies had land. And they grew their own food, you know, and they look after, you know, the animals and so forth and whatnot. and fishing was a big part of the culture too because obviously my mother lived on on the coast in a place called satyrs and there's a very big fishing spot there you know it's kind of fishing village food was very much directly sort of to do who with who they were so when they came to london of course looking for good food was very important and um you know we used to go to all kinds of money markets all over london i said i set up with it i said miss me football focus on a saturday because i had to go to the market with my mum it was something which i i remember there was all different cultures you know it was dindy you had the sort of you know the londoners and the white londoners you're the indian you're the jewish you had all kinds of people it was fabulous it was really kind of cool it's a good vibe when you would come home from the market what would you eat what would they cook from the market oh so if you get dashing you know um spinach uh you know again you know you cook i mean my my my favorite was like a nice stew chicken i mean that special thing roti just you know um oh my god what was it a beautiful it's like a nice uh stew fish and i used to love what was this there's one thing i used to love very much it was a vegetable what was it it was um okra i love okra i love okra yeah yeah yeah it was all kinds of exotic stuff i mean i say exotic because it was familiar to me but my friends my white friends I was like, what's that?

5:54What's this? What's this? Yeah. Who cooked in the house? My mother cooked. My father cooked. My father was a good cook, too. He took pride in the Christmas ham. That was his job. There was a particular way of cooking. There was a particular way of cooking. That came from because his uncle was a butcher in the West Indies. So there was a particular way of cooking the ham. I can't even describe it now. But it's all clothes, all indented in all everywhere. It was almost like sort of a horror movie. It's gorgeous. It's marvelous. Yeah. Great cooks, great cooks. Did you cook with them? Was it a family affair?

6:28Would you all cook together? I mean, I love being with my mother in the kitchen because somehow I love to help out. I love to sort of be, I don't know, I love that. So I can't say that I'm a great cook, but I was a very good sous chef. I'm a bit of a neat and tidy person. Would they entertain? Would friends come over? Was there that feeling? When people did come over, it was a lot of family. and friends. And I think most of the things I used to do when the people used to come over and they would just listen because there was always stories that would come out that my parents would never talk to us about, of course, but always because adults would talk to adults.

7:01So they'd find out about sort of how, what was going on. When you left this very comforting family meals where you were cooked for and you ate together, what was that like when you left home? Where did you live? I was actually near you guys, actually. I was in Fulham. I was just around the corner from the house. I was with this girlfriend, and she was great. She was a very important girlfriend of mine. Her name was Anouk. She was Swiss. And then she had discovered this restaurant, this place called Malati, the Indonesian place in Soho, which was delicious. It was gorgeous. And that was my first restaurant.

7:40That was your first restaurant? I think that was one of my first restaurants. Yeah, I was thinking I was about 19 years old. And after that, did restaurants become part of your social life? Did you love restaurants? Absolutely. I mean, what's great about, I mean, now I suppose in London, it wasn't so, when I was growing up, it didn't have that, was the world, I think. And to be introduced to the world through food and of course, good company. That's always the main ingredient for going to a restaurant. So that was wonderful. And then we got to know, so we got a lot of restaurants in Soha, we got to know.

8:11I remember during that time, it was the early nineties, early nineties. Yeah. And also in East End too. Yeah. What about in art school? Was that a revelation? Yeah, I mean, you know, a cannon bit of cheese, bloody hell, and baguettes. I mean, that was kind of like interesting, because again, there wasn't a dish in the West End is cheese. I mean, no cheese I had was crappy cheese. You know, you can imagine a sort of a big block of something, which they called cheese, but getting to know cheese was interesting during my time at the foundation at Chelsea. I mean, it's a kind of interesting life change, isn't it, between this going to the market with your mother and carrying the bag and coming home and cooking and then sitting and down and eating and then having independence and having to fend for yourself and discover life out there.

9:00Did you go home? Would you return home for the home-cooked meal? Yes, I used to love going home for food, my goodness. I used to, oh, oh my goodness, I used to love it. It's just a sort of, yeah, it was difficult because at first It was, how do I cook? What do I cook? I was on the phone with my mum. Mum, how do I do this? Mum, how do I do this? Mum, how do I do that? So a lot of calls about making sort of soups and things like that. And how do I season them? Because I took it for granted. I used to be the sushi, but I wasn't really looking. I wasn't really studying. Yeah, so a lot of phone calls, basically, back home.

9:42The River Cafe Cafe is ready for autumn. Pumpkin and chestnut soup, rotolo di sponacci, polenta and almond cake. And why not a telefonino, one of our favorite cocktails. We're open from 9 to 9, just steps away from the River Cafe. See you there.

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11:21Welcome back to River Cafe Table 4. In each episode, my guest reads a recipe they have chosen from one of our cookbooks. We chose spinach and peas. So would you like to go for it and tell the world how to make it? One kilogram of fresh peas in their pods. Extra virgin olive oil. One garlic clove, peeled and diced. One dried red chili, crumbled. One kilogram of spinach, washed. Tough stalks removed.

12:00Pod the peas, then blanch them in plenty of boiling water. In Italy, no one ever cooks vegetables al dente. Yes, absolutely, only pasta. So rather than blanching these peas, boil them so that they almost melt together with spinach and the olive oil. Gorgeous. So now, Steve, here we are. And we're going to talk about the series that has just been on television that we've all watched and been so moved by, Small Axe. You tell the story of a local restaurant constantly harassed by the police. Is that a memory? Can you tell me about the restaurant, the politics, and the series? Sure. Well, the Mangrove Restaurant was a restaurant run by Frank Critchlow in Lambert Grove on Old St.

12:51Road, and he opened a restaurant in 1968. And it was a sort of home-away-from-home restaurant. You can imagine, as I said before, a lot of people wanting the sort of the taste of home and the vibrancy of having sort of like-minded people wanting to sort of come to a place to eat and to sort of commune with each other. So it was a place of refuge in a way, you know, the vibes that came out of there. And it was just one of those places which became very infectious. If people wanted to go, it was something which was on the scene. and unfortunately the police and the authorities at B obviously didn't like what was happening at this place because again it was people from the western news, it was working class people, it was thinkers, it was sort of activists who were coming there and also the hoi polloi.

13:43So all these people coming to this spot and talking over food having ideas and obviously that was something which the authorities didn't like and therefore they tried to disrupt it as much as they could. It was a case of people not wanting certain ideas having a foothold in the UK and they thought that the mangrove was a place where those ideas could sort of take root. There's something about doing that kind of discussion as well over food. And one of the things that I see in the restaurant is that somehow being out of your house, being away from your domestic life, being looked after, gives you the chance to really focus on a conversation.

14:23Do you find that in a restaurant? Absolutely. Absolutely. And there's a sense of, I don't know, what is it? Purpose. You're there, you're present. There's another person there and present. But also actually just to listen. It's just a case of being in an environment where you feel comfortable in order to say things and listen. And also, I've talked to various people in business and in film and creating movies or making deals. I mean, one I always quote is Michael Caine, who said that he never did a deal for a movie in America that didn't take place in a restaurant. And he said that was very Hollywood.

15:06Do you work in restaurants? Do you like to meet people that you're going to work with in a restaurant first? I love it. That doesn't happen often. I mean I think it's sort of it's a classy way to do anything isn't it and also I love it because growing up in the art world what was wonderful about growing up in the art world is that artists never paid for dinners never because you're the artist and it was amazing in fact I think that's how I you know grew up in food in an interesting way it was through the art world it's completely different to the film world I mean you know the fact that you you know you might get a crappy sandwich, you're lucky.

15:43But in the art world, it was always the best wines. It was always the best food. You know, if it was an opening or even a meeting, it was always the best restaurant. That was a huge education. Absolutely. I was thinking about making movies and the movies you've made. And of course, here we are talking about food and eating and the joy of being taken care of through food. And then I think of the movie that, you know, was so earth shattering, which was hunger. And so we're talking about a movie called Hunger and the state of hunger and somebody who put their principles and politics above comfort and as a political act actually starved themselves.

16:23So what was it like making a movie that was the absence of food as a political statement? Heavy. I mean, for me, it was, again, food is an interesting thing in that, you know. I related to that in a way that of being a child in the way that, um, you know, often the only power a child has is refraining to eat the his or her mother saying, you're not leaving this table until you finish that plate. And the child sort of, you know, refusing to eat and then you're sent off the bed, you know? And it's interesting because, you know, what, you know, the clothes you wear as a, as a, as a child of a certain age, what time you go to bed, what food you eat is chosen by your parents.

17:09And the whole idea that this child, the power this child has is to refrain to eat. That was my relationship in some ways to Bobby Sands and Hunger Strike, that the power that person had was to refrain to eat. Ever since I was a child, I remember asking my mom when I saw this image of Bobby Sands on television with a number underneath his image and asking my mother, what is that, how old this person is? Because no, that's how many days this person's been on Hunger Strike. So there was an immediate relationship with the story. and it was difficult and Michael Fassbender the way he cast as Bobby Sanders was tremendous and that was a bond we have to this day it was a real kind of a labour of love in a way What other food scenes in your movies in 12 Years a Slave there's a scene isn't there at the dinner table I seem to remember I think there's lots of food in my films you can see after that is Shame the two characters Brandon and his possible girlfriend are at this dinner table and this waiter, annoying waiter, comes in every five seconds to interrupt them.

18:08I remember that from having lots of dinners in New York. It was like every five seconds someone would recover in the middle of something because it was getting bigger. You know how conversations are. They have to get to that point. You know, there's always commercial bloody breaks every five seconds. You have to start from scratch every five minutes. So it didn't make for a good eating experience. So I put that in the movie. What do you eat on a film set? Do you hate stopping for lunch when you're filming? No, I think it's fantastic. I mean, what was so wonderful when I started filmmaking and hunger and shame and all this, it's like all the actors and all the crew would eat together.

18:41We didn't, they'd be in their buddy trailers, they were that crap. Everyone would eat together. There's something about communal eating and it's about we.

18:52It's such a unifying thing to see, you know, the hair and makeup and the camera department and tuning up for food and sitting at the table together and talking about the film or talking about things. There's a camaraderie. It's only time often when you're sort of on set together that you have that sort of time, you know, when you're sitting together eating. And it's fun. It's fun. I love it.

19:24Year Three is an exhibition that was at the Tate And I went to see it three times because every time I went back, I saw something different in the expression of a child, of a teacher. It really told the story of the world we live in through these photographs. And one of the issues that I think is very important is that when we had the lockdown a year ago, one of the things we learned that when children were denied school, they were also denied food. and they were denied food at lunchtime, which might have been their only meal of the day. And the idea that we have a society that children depend on having their food away from the home because of the poverty in the home is appalling and shocking and distressing everything else.

20:15Yes, absolutely. I mean, I had schooled in this, which I paid for by my mother. That's why even today I like hot meals and hot lunches. I mean, and they were vital. They were vital. They were children. I know for a fact that that was the main meal of the day, if not the only meal of the day. And this is with a bottle of milk in the morning before Mrs. Thatcher took it away from us. Yeah. Yeah, I love school meals in that way. Also, just because you're such a good laugh in the canteen. You know, I associate food in school with good times. And I can even remember the smell of it, of the canteen and the noise and the cutlery banging together.

20:56And it's so important, you know, also people have to sort of really tip the hat to Marcus Rashford and what he did in the sense of, you know, getting the government to sort of stand out twice about the school meal. Because, you know, again, this is, you know, if we can't look after people we can't afford to eat, then I don't know who we are as human beings. that it took a footballer to do that is kind of a bit you know there you go everyone has got to step up in their own way i suppose if people aren't doing their job properly that meaning the government and also don't forget this again it's just one of those things i feel that you know everyone is unfortunately not brought into this world equally but if you just give someone the possibility a little bit of a shaft of light one doesn't know where that might lead them to so yeah the fact that people actually have a meal in their stomach you know in britain yeah it's it's is more than important.

21:46One thing I was very shocked by when I was shooting in Chicago, shooting Widows, was how I didn't see a grocery store in a black neighborhood. I didn't see any greens in a black neighborhood. You know, there wasn't a green grocers, but there was always some sort of fast food place where people eat. So people are losing their sort of heritage of food. People are not aware of food and nourishment and possibilities within food. And food is politics. in a way it reverts back to what we were talking about right at the beginning of of our conversation it starts with like in a way markets because markets a lot of markets are under threat a lot of markets have closed so this sense of community sense of camaraderie the sense of sort of um love of food and love of each other is being sort of erased in the sort of the you know work class areas i mean you get these markets but they're so they're kind of like posh markets aren't they they're sort of farmers markets they call them and you know the food is so expensive so and and i can i feel that they're becoming kind of food deserts in a way where kids are growing up on fast food and not being introduced to sort of um love food in a way so So that's something which I'm a bit sort of concerned about.

23:04Yeah. Food is a connection and food is a memory. And food is giving and sharing and food is political and social. And it's also comfort. It's something that we go to and we need comfort. And so I suppose, Steve McQueen, what would you say is the food you would go to if you needed comfort? for me the comfort food that i i very much love and i appreciate is often the cold day uh you know and you come in and it's my mom's chicken soups west indian chicken soup which has the bones in it and stuff you know you suck on the bones and it's the sort of you know it's the thyme it's the garlic it's all kinds of stuff which you know the secret ingredient which you still want tarmac the dumplings a bit of potatoes a bit of peas it's wonderful so those are the kind the things I really love.

23:54I could hear my dad sucking the bones right now in my head. It was wonderful. Having those dinners together on those cold days, I remember it was beautiful. It was beautiful. Lots of great memories. My dad is not here anymore. So when I often do think about him, I do think about him in that soup. I do think about him. Christmas and the ham. Oh, of course. And Christmas breakfast was a big thing. hot cocoa. My dad would make a bake. A bake is a kind of a flatbread, West Indian flatbread in the morning. And, oh, my God, how can I not say this? Fish cakes, my mother's fish cakes. Oh, my God. My mother's fish cakes on the Christmas morning, and she used to make these little bakes, which was sort of like a bread where you fry in oil.

24:46Oh, my God. And even my daughter, when my mom comes over, if it's yours, ask Granny, please make fish cakes for me because it's a West Indian fish cake. It's gorgeous. And of course, you know, there's never anything left for me when I get home. But, you know, it's just, I think really what you've done actually is actually given me, and in fact, that's what love is rock. Not even love is rock. That's what the whole of Small Axe was based on. The foundation of all of that was based on food and memory because it's what's so fascinating. I'm rambling on it again myself, but the smell is, the most, and taste is the most potent sources of memory.

25:26Not the photographs. Photographs can only tell you so much because, you know, it cuts out what's beyond the frame is not present. It's not visible. Anyway, going on. Wrapping on. I'll stop myself. Stop. No, don't. It's beautiful. But it is what it does. There are people who say, I never remembered that until we started talking about the food and that brought back the memory. I had somebody whose father had left home, and when he saw his children on the weekends, he would suddenly start cooking for them. And he said, oh, I don't think I've ever told anybody that story. But now I remember my father actually, as a way of his guilt or his love, just started cooking.

26:07And I think when you choose your comfort food, you start thinking about your father and your mother, and you think about the memories. And it's so potent, isn't it? I thought it would be interesting, but what it really brings home over and over again is the connection that food has for us, for memories. Forget about this island. I'm telling you, it's Doug. You've done it, mate. Smell and take. You've done it. Well, thank you. You've done it. It's all to do with you.

26:42Thank you for listening to Ruthie's Table 4 in partnership with Montclair.

26:51We'll see you next time.