Gayle King

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1:19Gayle King is known as America's best friend. I didn't know countries could have best friends, but if I was a country, I'd definitely want her as mine. Anchor, producer, magazine editor, and amazingly, an astronaut, Gayle is a friend to millions of Americans who wake to her on CBS mornings, loved for combining serious journalism with warmth, intimacy, and fun. Gayle is only in London for two nights, So there's no time for our usual Ruthie's table for the River Cafe. We're recording our conversation here right before we eat at home, which seems exactly right. For where else would you want to have America's best friend?

2:01And I hope very soon mine, but at home. That was such a beautiful introduction. Thank you so much. And I came and I brought my appetite. Tell them what you're eating. So I have focaccia bread with some tomatoes. Yeah, so you have, so we always, the drill, you know, we always ask people to read a recipe. What have you chosen? I wanted to pick a recipe where it looked like you could lick it off the page. Okay. That's not rude, is it? No. It's not rude. Also, please know this, I don't cook. I chose spaghetti with lemon, serve six, 250 g's of spaghetti. That's a gram. Gram. You've got the English, you've got the European version.

2:45What does that mean, g? It means a gram. Okay, a gram. Juice of three to four lemons, preferably amalfi lemons, as opposed to those regular lemons. Yeah, amalfi lemons. Do you know amalfi on the southern coast of Italy? 150 ml of olive oil, milliliters. Got it. 150 ml of olive oil. 150 g's, which I've just learned is grams, of Parmesan. Has to be freshly grated, of course. Two handfuls of fresh basil. Leaves picked. Yeah. And finely chopped. Yeah. We have to pick our basil leaves? Well, you have to pick them off the stem. Oh, okay. Okay. I told you, I don't cook. Okay. Finely, but I'm a very good eater, Ruthie.

3:24That's more important. Finely grated lemon zest. That's optional, but I highly, highly recommend. The only other ingredient needed is sun. Oh. My favorite color is yellow. And why yellow? Because it's a color of sunshine and butter, both of which I enjoy very much. Cook the spaghetti in a generous amount of boiling salted water. Then drain thoroughly and return to the saucepan. Ruthie, you're cracking me up because you're looking at me like, this is the first time you've heard this. You're very good at writing recipes. Like, this is really good. I'm very impressed by your recipe. Meanwhile, whisk the lemon juice, I actually know what that is, with the olive oil.

4:00Then stir in the Parmesan. It will melt into the mixture, making it thick and creamy. Ooh, that's good. Season with sea salt, not regular salt, sea salt. Why sea salt, not regular salt? Sea salt has a saltier taste and it has a grain and you can crumble it. so you do it yourself. And black pepper and add more lemon juice to taste. Add the sauce to the spaghetti and shake the pan so that each strand of pasta is coated with cheese. Each strand? Each strand, yes. Do you know who Marcella Hazana? She was a great doyen of Italian cooking. Okay. And her whole thing was toss, toss, toss, and then toss again.

4:41Toss again. That the whole thing with pasta is making every... Because otherwise, a strand of pasta without the sauce is just flour and water. And it's naked. And it's naked. So each strand is coated with cheese like that. Finally, stir in the chopped basil and ideally some grated lemon zest. I'd never had the lemon with spaghetti before. Okay. I had it at your place, actually. Well, I'll have it. We'll go to Amalfi one day. We can come in the summer to the River Cafe and we'll do it. It's very, very tasty. But you were born in Ankara. Is that right? Well, I was born in Chattanooga, Tennessee.

5:14I was only there for 18 months, but my childhood was in Ankara, Turkey. So from first grade to sixth grade, that's where I lived. My dad worked for the government, and we were sent over there. I've been told, Ruthie, and I do not know if this is true, that people say to me, Gail, your dad probably worked for the CIA. Think about this. A black man in Ankara from 60 to 66, and at our home, we had a room that we were not allowed to go into, the kids. I'm the oldest of four girls. And he would be in there at all hours of the day and night. My mom told me that it was his hobby, Morse code. So he'd be in there with the radios.

5:54So we were told you're never allowed in that room at any time. And he would go in there and that was his hobby. And what did he tell? So I choose to believe he was an electronic engineer. So that's what he said. But he was an engineer, theoretically. I really like Turkish fruit. I think it's a fantastic. You know what I remember about Turkey? I remember Turkish bread. So in Turkey, the breakfast is tea and bread, you know? It's not eggs and bacon and pancakes. And I can remember going to a, when I was a kid, I could speak Turkish, going to a Turkish girlfriend's house for breakfast. And they had, you know, the bread with the jam and stuff.

6:36I had 13 pieces of bread, the little ones. and the father didn't know I could speak Turkish and he said this little girl was there someone who cooked for you yeah did your mother we did we did have a cook yes we would have bread and the cheese you would have that a lot of fish um potatoes I love potatoes everything yeah do you oh my god I love there is no such thing as a bad potato no such thing and when you'd come home would there be family do you remember family meals where you were all around the table every night talking. Yeah, I grew up in one of those houses that you all had to eat dinner together.

7:12We did, yeah. My thing when we came back from the States, my favorite thing was McDonald's because I'd never seen anything like that. Yeah, that was what year it was then. So going to McDonald's in 66. So McDonald's was a treat. That was a treat for me. And your four sisters were older than you? I'm the oldest. You're the oldest. So there were... People tell me, Ruthie, that I was very bossy as a child. I can't imagine. I can't either. I call it good executive skills. I do not think it was bossy. What was it like, the home life of being with four girls and your parents? I had a really great childhood.

7:47Was it? Yeah. You were close? Yes. Did your mom work? No. Of four kids? I think about my mom. By the time she was 25, 26, she had four girls. I didn't have my first baby until I was 31. Yeah. I can't imagine at 26 having four girls. And, you know, my mom was in college. She was on her way to law school, and she went to the doctor, and they thought she had a tumor, and the tumor turned out to be me. Oh, okay. How old were you when you had your first baby? 24. 24. Yeah, I was little. Did that seem... But I had three stepchildren when I was 21. When you were 21? Yeah, 21. Yeah, so I grew up with little kids.

8:28Can you imagine having... That seems so young. No, but you just kind of did it, you know. You know, you were exactly right. Back then you just did what you had to do. And you didn't think about it. Yeah. Actually, we moved to Paris. And so, again, I was sort of 22, 23 in Paris. Yes. And that was so... Oh, my God. Have you ever lived in Paris? I went to Paris as a kid. Did you? Yes. Your father, the engineer. Well, the thing about living in Turkey, we traveled a lot. So for vacation, we went to Paris. I would go to the Acropolis, which, as you know, is in Greece. I was talking to somebody at the dinner the other night that the majority of Americans don't have passports.

9:06Not only Americans, but our senators. Do you know that the huge proportion of senators don't have passports and they don't, you know, travel? I mean, even now, most Americans do not have passports. I mean, I'm sort of, I'm taken aback by that. Do your kids travel? Did you take your kids everywhere? How many children do you have? I have two. I think travel is, I think exposure and travel, if you can do it, is very important for children. And food. That's the thing when you travel. Again, going back to the food is that when we travel, you know, when you travel now, do you think about where you're going to eat and what you're going to eat?

9:47And if you're going to have tea in Britain, in London, how do you plan that? I mean, you know, you get there. I like to get the lay of the land. And then you like to find out what are the, and it doesn't have to be hoity and choity. I just like to go where they have great food.

10:16Then the space hamster flew his hot air balloon all the way to the bottom of the ocean. Where did that story come from? Book? Dream? Nope. It came from a conversation. Meet Miko Mini Plus, the AI companion that co-creates personalized story adventures with your child in real time. What color was the hamster's cape? And what did he pack for lunch? Unlock your child's imagination. Discover Miko Mini Plus and the magic of AI, exclusively at Costco. You're going to school. Where in California were you? So I lived in a place called Menlo, I went to Menlo Atherton High. So I lived in something, a place called Menlo Park, which is a Bay Area, Palo Alto and Menlo Park.

10:59It's a big Silicon Valley now. You know, when I was in high school, that wasn't the case. But now it's, you know, it's a very hot spot to live. And then you went to college where? I went to University of Maryland. My parents moved to Chevy Chase, Maryland my senior year. And I stayed behind to finish my senior year of high school. Where did you stay? Where were you? So I lived with a teacher. I lived with a teacher and he was my social studies teacher. Well, that must have been a close. Yeah, I ended up living with him and his wife and his two children. And now I look at it when, you know, kids today, they have college tours and they're going, looking at different places.

11:40I only wanted to go to University of Maryland because it would be closer to family. That was the only place I wanted to go. And your sisters were still there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you lived with this teacher, was it a very different experience? No, because Peggy, the mom, could actually cook. I can still remember her zucchini. She used to make this sautéed zucchini with mozzarella cheese. Isn't that good? Sounds good. Sautéed zucchini with onions, garlic. God, it was so good. Do you think your parents discouraged you from cooking? No, it wasn't that. My mom was an okay cook. It's not like she did the basics.

12:17but it's not that they discourage me. I think I just had no interest in it. I didn't. Fair enough. But Ruthie, I wish I could. Do you? Oh, my God. What else would you, other than cooking, what else do you wish you could do? Sing. Sing. You can sing. We just sang. Oh, I love singing. Go on. L is for the way you look at me. I know. You're a beautiful voice. I love singing. Yeah, I do too. But I know that I can't sing, but I think what a kick it must be. to be on a stage. Like Taylor Swift's new music just came out. And I just think, what it must be like to be on stage where you've just written something on a piece of paper and then it becomes a hit song that everybody knows the words.

13:01What a kick that is. I sometimes go to theater and I just almost die of jealousy. I'm in awe of it. Music is very unifying. Music, sports, food. We live in a world now where everything is such a beat show. that, you know, I crave moments of sanity and joy. And I think food does that. Going chronologically back to Baltimore, you were at University of Maryland. Yeah. And were you living by yourself? I was in the dorm. Did you stay with your parents? Nope, I was in the dorm. I was grown up, Ruthie. I was in the dorm. You went to club. Not only was I in the dorm, I was an RA. What's that mean? So I was a resident assistant.

13:42So I was the one who was in charge of the floor of the students. Responsibility. You said bossy. You said that. Yeah. But did you enjoy that? No, no, no. Not bossy, Ruthie. Not bossy. Executive leadership skills. Yeah. This is the thing about me. I've always been a very curious kid. Yeah. And I also like hearing about other people's problems. And I'm very good at listening to problems and giving unsolicited advice. Oh, yeah. Yes. That's my son and daughter. I'm really good at it. I had this idea of writing a book called, Oh, We're So Smart, Listen to Us. because you know how we always when we're giving advice like to our kids this is like we think we're so smart we're so smart listen to us yeah because we're just so smart aren't we we guess about so go on giving me but i think i have good common sense i really yeah i'm sure you do i really do i i think i have good common sense and i always like listening to how people are doing and what they're thinking oh ruthie i will sit in a conversation and i go i'm not going to say a word.

14:38I'm just going to listen. And somebody will say something and I just frigging can't help it. I'll go, well, why did you think so-and-so-and-so-and-so? Or why did you do so-and-so? This is even strangers I don't even know. So I thought that I would either be a child psychologist. I thought I'd be very good at that. Or I'd be a lawyer because I saw myself arguing my case in front of a jury. And I was never going to represent the bad guy. I was always going to represent the state. I had it all figured out. And then life took a turn. Well, what was that turn? Well, I got a job at a TV station when I was in college.

15:09Went in the newsroom and I was hooked. What was your job? I had a very entry-level job, you know, where you see, like if I was interviewing Ruthie Rogers and I type out Ruthie Rogers and your title. I was a person who did that. I'd get the scripts, rip the scripts and, you know, give them to the anchors, roll the prompter back then, you know, where they're reading. So it was very entry-level. But I say if you're really serious and really good, you can parlay an entry-level job into something else. And that is what I did. So tell me about that. So this was at, I graduated from University of Maryland.

15:48I got a job in, while I was in college, I was working at a TV station in Washington. And then when I graduated, I got a job in Baltimore, Maryland. You can do creative writing on your resume, without lying, but very creative writing. And I got a job. And I always say to people, you want to make sure the boss knows your name. Not in a bad way. Like, oh, my God, she's so obnoxious. You want somebody who knows. I was the kind of kid, you know, is there anything I can do? Or can I go out on a story with you? Or I tried writing this. Could you take a look? So, you know, I volunteer to work on holidays or weekends or whatever it took to make myself useful is what I did.

16:29And then you get noticed and people start calling on you and asking you to do things. I think as on the other side now that we're both on the other side of that table, don't you notice it when people do it with you? Yes, yes, yes. I remember, do you know David Putnam, producer in great films? He was looking for an assistant. Everybody kept trying to impress him, impress him. And then this young person said, Mr. Putnam, I will make you the best cup of coffee you've ever had. You're hired. and it was just something about the simplicity and the passion and wanting to do something that's why when people come in and they're interns you can tell there are some interns that are looking at their watch like oh my god how much longer is this going to be and others that are really eager and there's a way to do it without kissing ass we as employers don't want to take the person necessarily who make us the best cup of coffee we want to take somebody who's curious Yes, curious.

17:26That's the one when people ask me what I look for in an interview. I always say curiosity. Yes. I think. You know, I was told as a kid that I was nosy. I hate that word, nosy. We don't like that. Not bossy, not nosy. No, I agree. And I said, I'm not nosy, I'm curious. Curious. There is a difference. Yeah. There is a difference. So tell me more about... I mean, so I got into a reporter training program back at D.C. And what year, what decade are we in? Like we're in the 70s. Do you think it's changed the way you did it? Digital makes it different. But I think, you know, the work ethic doesn't change.

17:56I mean, I applied for this reporter training program, and I didn't get it the first time. And I thought that I was a shoo-in because I knew everybody who was interviewing me. It was at my old station. I said, they know me. I think they like me. And I didn't get it. They only had four slots. And I remember being stunned that I didn't get it. And so I went to the boss, and he's in his office, and he's reading a newspaper, and his feet are up on the table, which is you know never a good sign and i walked in and he went yes and i went well um i was just curious about why i didn't get the reporter training program because you know i've been here and i think you all are familiar with my work and it just it just didn't seem fair to me and he's sitting there he doesn't miss a beat he's reading the newspaper he goes gail life ain't fair anything else?

18:49I mean, you just kind of go, uh, no, sir. Thank you for your time. I mean, I was so thrilled by that. What a great thing to do. But Ruthie, it was such a lesson. Life ain't fair. You don't always get what you think you're supposed to get. You don't always get even what you think you deserve. Sometimes life ain't fair. It has nothing to do with you. And so that was a really, really, uh, defining moment for me. And then what did you do? To know, well, so then I applied and got another job and then I ended up in Baltimore as a production assistant the entry-level position and I did that and then I got my first real job where you're Gail Kang Action News in Kansas City Missouri I applied all over the country and got this job in Kansas City Missouri I had my little resume tape and I can remember being out on my first live shop there was breaking news I was supposed to interview the police chief and I was very nervous my clothes hadn't come you know from moving cross country i'm wearing the same thing i'd worn two days in a row so i called one of my mentors and i said bruce i'm so nervous my clothes haven't come it's breaking news i'm about to meet the police chief and i'm not sure what to do blah blah blah blah blah and he goes oh grow up and hung up the phone that was lesson number two you know where you go hello because you can't believe i've called you in distress yeah and you're like oh grow up click wow but But Ruthie, in the moment, it's shocking.

20:16It's shocking. And then you've got to put on your big girl panties and figure it out. But at the time, Ruthie, I didn't think it was good. At the time, I was devastated by it. And another good lesson for me was Maya Angelou. She was, you know. Maya Angelou. Maya Angelou. I was friends with her. And she was like wisdom and liquid poetry. And Oprah and I would go to her house. and we feel like we needed a notepad because everything she said was so good. And I remember calling her. Something had happened at CBS, and I said, and then they said blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then I didn't get to do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

20:52And she goes, stop it. I go, wait, wait, I'm not done. She goes, it doesn't matter. Right now, just say thank you. I go, what am I saying thank you about? Just say thank you. So I went, thank you. She goes, Gail, whining is so unbecoming. It lets them know there's a victim in the neighborhood. Isn't that good?

21:30Then the space hamster flew his hot air balloon all the way to the bottom of the ocean. Where did that story come from? Book? Dream? Nope. It came from a conversation. Meet Miko Mini Plus, the AI companion that co-creates personalized story adventures with your child in real time. What color was the hamster's cape? And what did he pack for lunch? Unlock your child's imagination. Discover Miko Mini Plus and the magic of AI, exclusively at Costco. How did Oprah happen? But Oprah, I met her when I got the job in Baltimore. Oh, she was in Baltimore? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we met when we were 21 and 22.

22:14So I'm here in the newsroom, and she's here. She's the anchor. She's like, whoa, that's Oprah Winfrey. She's the anchor. I used to go to Oprah and say, do you have any chyrons for your piece? She was 22. Yeah, and we became friends there. And now we're 70 and 71. We've been friends a long time. And I remember calling my mom and saying, Mom, my friend Oprah in the newsroom, she went to Casual Corner and she bought two sweaters because I was putting mine on layaway. And I remember Oprah was 22 and when she turned 30, she made$30 ,000. And I said, wouldn't it be cool if when you turn 50, you make$50 ,000?

22:55Boy, things have changed. Things have changed. She's doing all right, Ruby. She likes food. She loves to eat. Yes, yes. Yeah. Tell me what she cooks. She's really great with pasta. Yeah. She makes really good pasta. She makes lovely sandwiches with turkey and melted cheese, and she likes crunchy bread. She's good. So you remember those days when you would go. She does that now. She still cooks. She wasn't cooking when we were younger, no. I think that's the thing, when you're working, and then when you had children, because you had children while you were. Yes, yes. Your career. So how did you manage domestic life and the surge in your career?

23:31I was married. I had a husband. Unfortunately, my husband didn't believe in monogamy, so that can be challenging. Okay. So I got a divorce when my kids were four and five. And I just think that you just, you know, a working mother, you just juggle a lot of balls. You're going to drop some. Yeah, that's a lot. You're going to drop some. Did you have help? Did you have, was your family nearby? No, no, no, because I was anchoring the news in Connecticut. No, but I had a nanny. I had a nanny. But I just think, you know, when you're a mom and you're working, you don't get it right all of the time. And my thing is you drop some balls, but pick the balls up and keep on going.

24:08What my children did know is that they were the most important things in my life. I tried to make it so I was the first thing they saw in the morning and the last thing they saw at night. I really did try to do that very diligently. You always an anchor? Yeah. Yeah, I was an anchor. I was a reporter. Yes. I started as a reporter, then I was a reporter slash anchor, then I became a full-time anchor. And I just think, you know, I think when you're happy at what you do, it actually makes you a better mother. Yeah, I do too. I do. I didn't, listen, being a staying-at-home mom was not something I wanted to do.

24:44You know, when I started in my career, because he was a lawyer, the plan was that I would be working and by, you know, he would go to law school. and then by the time his career was up, then I would be ready to leave mine, say, when the kids were 13, 14. And it just didn't work out that way. They turned 13 or 14, I was thinking, I don't want to leave my job. I was divorced by then, but I was still thinking, I don't want to leave my job. I'm sitting here today at 70 thinking, I don't want to leave my job. Why would you? Well, I keep waiting for that feeling. Then after my grandchildren were born, people said, oh, she's going to quit, she's going to go, she's going to...

25:20I don't want to do that. I still really love what I get to do. Still. Of course you do. Still. I just thought about doing a new restaurant this summer. Really? And I thought, yeah, and everything, you know. I heard the restaurant business is very difficult. Every job is hard. And I, you know, being a restaurant person or being a journalist. Yeah, but some jobs are harder than others, Ruthie. Not really. Well, maybe they are. Yeah, they are. I think the way you work in the image of a restaurant, that old-fashioned male image of the angry chef. And they're screaming. The bully, and they're screaming, and they have to get the food out.

25:52I think back in the day, people, like in the newsrooms, you had people throwing typewriters and screaming and hollering. And in kitchens, you had people burning people's hands. On purpose? And they would punish chefs by just getting the thing hot. I have a chef that said she was taking soufflés out of an oven here in London. Yes. And the, I won't say who it was, but the owner went over to her and he said that if those soufflés don't rise, this frying pan will be on your head. Because he was threatening to hit her over the head with a frying pan. And that's against the law. That's what I think is so great that women today don't take the stuff.

26:29They don't take it anymore. Yeah. Are there more women that you work with now than before? Do you find that? Yeah, yeah. It's still not equal, but yes, there are definitely more women. And I think women are lasting longer too. You know, it used to be 35, 40, 50, forget it. You know, because men can age. They can get wrinkles. They can get fat tummies. They can go bald. And they're just distinguished. When it happens to women, it's like, God, she looks old. And I just think that that's changing. I think that that's changing. Tell me about space because we have to go up to dinner soon. Tell me about the...