Ian Wright

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0:34Welcome to Ruthie's Table 4, a production of iHeartRadio and Atomize Studios.

0:44Some weeks ago, Ian Wright and his beautiful family were sitting here in the River Cafe Garden celebrating Nancy, his wife's birthday. Ruthie, the waiter said to me, please go and ask him to do a podcast, especially for all of us, we know he loves to eat, but we want to know more about him. He is our hero. Ian does a lot that I could never dream of achieving, for instance, kicking footballs into nets. But we do share a lot as well, concern for healthy eating for children, advocacy for social justice, a more fair society, and an end to racial discrimination. Today on Table 4, we're going to get to know each other better, discussing all this and more, including having delicious lunches with our family.

1:28thank you so much for doing this and you're going to stay for lunch yes yes

1:37deep fried zucchini flowers okay 12 ml zucchini flowers sunflower oil for deep frying 225 grams plain flour four tablespoons extra virgin olive oil 300 millimeters of warm water sea salt freshly ground black pepper four large egg whites um for batter you have to sieve the flour in a large bowl pour the olive oil into a well in the center and slowly stir with a wide spoon to combine the flour into the oil see these are the kind of things where because i'm not a great cook that these i'm nervous about this you add a little warm water until the batter is the consistency of double cream like season and let it stand for at least two hours eat the sunflower oil to 180 centigrade upgrade that's roast wow just before cooking beat the egg white until stiff and fold into the batter yeah and i was speaking to to louis oh yeah the chef he was telling me about how much he has to beat the egg whites up so as then when you know that they're done you you can turn it around and then they don't fall out which i thought was pretty cool so over your head yes and it doesn't fall out hi i'm louis i'm a chef at the river cafe and today we're going to be making deep fried zucchini flowers with Ian Wright.

2:52Nice one Lou, look forward to it. So basically what we've done is we've made a batter with zero zero flour, olive oil and some like ice cold water and then we'll fold through some whipped up egg whites. Yes. So you want to whip them until they're you know stiff you can hold a bowl up above your head and they won't fall out. Wow. And that really helps to like puff up the batter and like makes them go helps with like the crispiness. We got these amazing zucchini flowers in from from Italy they're really fresh vibrant yeah these these would have been kind of a lot of the you know the crop within the within the last day or two mmm and yeah and we'll dunk these in the batter fry them for a minute 190 degrees and then they're just really delicious with a big pinch of salt and wedge of lemon when I first saw them I was like what what are those about yeah and then you taste them they almost like they kind of they They almost melt in your mouth.

3:49They kind of like dissolve. You know, they're very easy to continue just eating them. I only make zucchini flowers when we're in Italy because you get them. We go and pick them from the garden. Right. And then we fry them. They're so beautiful, aren't they? They're so beautiful. And I think it's what children really love to do because ultimately it sounds perhaps more complicated than it is because basically what you're doing is you're making a batter, folding the egg whites into that, and then you have the flowers. You dip them in. and I like very little batter on them because the flour that's so delicate.

4:20And then I don't know what 180 degrees is when I'm frying oil. So what you do is you just heat it for a long time and then when you put the flour in, it sizzles. And if it doesn't sizzle, it's probably not ready. So it does look like I have to probably write a new cookbook. So I'm prepared to do that. But tell me about your, because you do love to eat out, don't you? I see you here and you always seem so happy. Did you eat out as a child? No. This is probably why I love eating out so much. I didn't actually start eating out until obviously I think probably 21, 21, 22. Didn't have a lot of experiences of going to restaurants.

4:59And even when I started doing that, I started eating pasta very late in my life. My mum never, there wasn't a lot of variety. It was a lot of West Indian food. It was stew chicken. It was curry goat, mutton, tripe, pig's trotters, oxtail, white rice. rice with peas, boiled dumplings. So it was that kind of food all the way up until that point. And I remember when I started playing football at Crystal Palace, I used to get very nervous about going to, like we used to have to go to hotels, we used to have to go to restaurants and communal, eat all of us together. And I was very insecure about it because I didn't know, I didn't know food.

5:36And then we had older players who were really, they were quite mean. Let's say things like, you know, you've got Dauphinoise on there, you know you've got sauteed potatoes and they'd say things like you know you don't even know how to spell duffing you know I mean do you know what sauteed potatoes are can you afford steak so what I would do is I would um I would end up then getting my mum to make me something I'd go down so the boss would see me and then I'd say for a five minute and then I'd leave yeah and get my food warmed up by the people in the kitchen and I'd eat in my in my hotel room and that's what we used to do when we was younger we used to all eat either in the bedroom or in the living room in front of television or stuff like that.

6:11So I was more comfortable doing that. But my problem was insecurity about ordering the food. So, you know. It's intimidating. It was, and it was intimidating to the point where the manager, I've done it a few times, about three or four times he didn't see me at dinner. And I remember in the morning he said, where are you? I'm not seeing you at the dinner. That's how I get together. And then I explained to him why. and then he kind of sorted that out for me. He had a word with them, you know, obviously. You know, it didn't help because obviously when people. It's bullying. Yeah, it was, it was, it didn't help.

6:48But then I just blasted through it. And so off of the back of that, you know, you start to, because you get into a situation where you can go to nice restaurants. And so I love it. So when you talk about being excellent at your sport, right, being able to do what you do so well and that you're on a team, and then going to a mealtime was painful. And it was painful because you were made to feel unable to do that. I feel a bit inferior, to be honest. I was 21. In fact, I just turned 22 when I joined Crystal Palace. It was very late for me. A lot of my experiences started to come as learning on the job about mixing with people, different people, worldly people.

7:29Even just the knife and forks from outside in, knowing what to do. You know, you sit there and you're nervous. And so those were the kind of intimidating things about going to a restaurant or eating with people that used to really frighten me because I never. We ate on our laps literally all the way through. Was your mother working? No. So was there a table where you could sit? No, the kitchen wasn't big enough for a table for the four of us. It was my mom, my stepdad, my older brother, me, and my sister. Right. So there wasn't enough space for all of us to sit and have that dinner and have that chat.

8:08We never done that. That's something that's happened to me later in my life. And your mother, you were describing the food that probably took quite a lot of effort to cook. So would she cook that all day or would she have a job? No, no, no. She didn't work. She didn't work. But she did cook the food, obviously, from the morning. The thing is we didn't eat a lot of food. I didn't eat breakfast. I could skip those, no problem. Was that because you couldn't afford it? No, it would have been there, but I wasn't used to having it. We could literally go up and, you know, you can have cereal if you want or for lunch.

8:43You can have it if you want, but I found that probably because I was out playing football all day or doing stuff all day, it didn't bother me to eat breakfast, eat lunch, but the dinner was something that was always there. And it was very repetitious of everything that we always have. You know, we had rice and peas and chicken on a Sunday. you had soup on a Saturday mutton curry goat curried mutton and stuff like that white rice rice and peas and that is the diet all the way for I didn't start eating pasta till I was like 21 because when I was at school you used to see little pasta bits that they used to have in school like you used to draw patterns around them fusilli and penne and all that sort of stuff and so I didn't see that as something that we should be eating you'd go to some people's houses and their parents would make macaroni cheese with the with the sundae rice and peas but my mum never made that so I wasn't very good with anything that my mum didn't make.

9:33She didn't make a lot of vegetables for us. We used to get some callaloo when we was younger, West Indian callaloo, like a green cabbagey thing but I didn't eat a lot of stuff because school dinners for me were a nightmare. Why were they a nightmare? It was so bland, it was so plain and everything that my mum cooked with a lot of seasoning. So this is why as time went by, I'm sure we'll get on to it with Arsenal and Arsene Wenger, eating bland food is very, very difficult for me. Is it? It has to be seasoned or some form of taste. You know, I need to have that. So, you know, that is something that my mum done a lot.

10:10And so anywhere I went to eat, if it wasn't seasoned properly, I could easily not eat the food. Did you qualify for free school lunches? Yes, we did, which was obviously, again, it had its own drawbacks. But I was never bothered about being teased for that. And you were teased for that? Yeah, you tease for that because one of the things I always used to wonder why they did it was you had to queue up in a different line. It's shocking. You know, and it was always, you know, you get people who, you know, kids are kids, aren't they? They just tease you and stuff like that. And what I used to get a lot of teasing for because obviously I was quite good at the football at the time.

10:47So they'd find something that they couldn't use against me to try and make me feel bad and insecure. And it used to work. Horrible. So some of the times I used to wait and wait and wait, and then I'd go and do it, and then if people would tease you, you'd just get on with it, you know. Was this an inner city school in London? Yeah, I went to a school called Samuel Pepys in Broccoli. Right. I loved the school. So you did, even though you had such... Yeah, because, like, you know, my friends, you know, and I could play football. Yeah, if you have a skill. Yeah, because my problem was when I was younger was my attention span in the classroom wasn't very good.

11:24at all and when I couldn't grasp what they were doing I'd get a bit disruptive unless this is you know that was I think it's much more recognized yeah but then what they used to do is they say if you don't start paying attention more it's and you know you're not going to be able to play football oh they'd punish you that way yeah and so that was another massive worry for me because it wasn't because I was just being disruptive for being disruptive it's just I couldn't grasp the lesson as quickly as other people so you know now I understand it more but like yeah the food again going back one of the things I did love about um school was desserts and afters because we we never had anything like that you might have had digestive biscuits when we're younger and chocolate biscuits every now and then but it wasn't very we didn't have them a lot yeah you know you go to your friend's house and they would have all sorts of like stuff in their larder in their kitchen but we never had that so school dessert like school puddings was amazing you know What were they?

12:22So apple pie and custard, you know, because I didn't eat custard for a while because obviously it didn't have it at home, so I didn't like that. So I used to always have the sponge on its own. I used to have the apple pie on its own. Then you'd have the sponge with the jam and the coconut on the top of it, you know, and apple crumble. Honestly, I used to look so forward to it. And I remember I used to have a friend who used to give me all these sponges because he didn't like sponge. And then there was a time I used to give him all the apple pies and all that kind of pastry. you on and then I remember one day I just said to him I'm just gonna I'm just gonna taste it because I never tasted it you know and then I tasted it with the custard and I just I said I'm not I can't give it to you no more like it yeah did your mother grow up in poverty yeah she grew up yeah in Jamaica it was very tough um she grew up with like seven eight siblings you know it's quite tough she had to me and she had to move out and go and live with um with my aunt who didn't treat her very well and that was one of the things as well I didn't get to to really find out the deep rooted problems with my mum's with my mum's like mental health and everything what she went through because he'd be sitting down just watching the television and then you know my mum would just burst out crying she just you just see tears just coming down her face but as time went by obviously you know people always talk about my style my desert island disc and I tried to be as candid as I possibly could but I just remember how she used to be she was so she was so sad inside and kind of took it out on me and my brothers and sisters and that.

13:50But like never, ever spoke about what happened to her to the point where some of the times she spoke to me about her aunt and my cousin Ali Alvan, Alvan his name was. Alvan. Yeah, and his mum was, she was really nasty to my mum. Yeah. You know, when she used to tell the story, she'd burst into tears talking about that sort of stuff. That kind of abuse leaves scars. It does. You know, and I think probably maybe the way she had trouble expressing her love, as you spoke about. Well, the thing with it is, Ruth, she always made sure there was a meal on there for us. We didn't have the greatest clothes in there, but the clothes were clean, everything was nice.

14:28Our house was presentable, everything was nice. But she just didn't have much. Very tough. Yeah, it was tough. You talk about your Jamaican family, your mother coming from Jamaica, leaving her family in Jamaica, or did they come with her? No, no, they left. They left. So she left? She left home, yeah. How old was she? She probably was when she came home. She came over in the Windrush generation. So she came here in, I think it's 58. Right. You know, so, and she came on her own. How old was she? My mum was born 1933. In fact, she might have been born earlier than 33 then, because, like, when she died, she was 94.

15:03Right. But, like, she came in that generation, you know, and she came and stayed with friends, and it just went from there. So she had no family at all? Not here, just, like, friends and acquaintances. There was a couple of long-distance cousins who were here as well. They came in and around the same time. And so they met up. So this is why I grew up in and around Broccoli, Lewisham, Deptford, New Cross, all that. So that's where everybody kind of was. Did you ever go back to Jamaica? Have you been back? Yeah, I used to go a lot. When I was at Crystal Palace in 85, like I say, when I was able to afford to do that, because the first time I went on an airplane was with Crystal Palace.

15:41you know i was 20 i was just turned 22 and we actually finally we went to qatar it was amazing oh did you yeah it was uh unbelievable but we flew over the alps and that and it was like obviously the first time i was on a plane i just couldn't believe it i was really afraid yeah because most of the trip i was thinking how does this stay up stay up here i still think that you know and i remember like again like we had those um those the older guys who obviously they knew you know this is first time all this experience was new to me and like i think back on these experiences and they were amazing but like it's always always tinged with their nastiness because i remember one of the things that they said to me which i'll never forget um was you have to be you're most afraid when you're on a plane 30 seconds before you take off and the 30 seconds before you land and and to this day i still have anxiety about that can i ask you if if um when you was strut out was the bullying was it racist yeah yeah were there other black players in the team yeah there was me tony finnegan um andy gray henry hewton was there at the time as well but yeah the racism was pretty bad it was very it was accepted it was nowhere near what it's like now the cruelty was from the white players it was from the white players and the older players you know obviously the younger guys who were in and around the same age as us sympathize with us they didn't like it But it wasn't a time where you could stand up to that kind of presence in the dressing room.

17:11This is what year? That would have been 85, between 85 and, you know, 85 until. Yeah. Has it changed? Yeah. It's changed a lot because now what's happened is that there's allies. Yeah. You know, black people don't want racism. Yeah. You know, if it was up to black people for racism to stop people, it wouldn't be there. Yeah. But what you have to understand is that without white people, white allies, you're not going to shift it. You're not going to make a move on the dial. And what's happening now is that there are more allies. There are more people who speak out. There are more people that now are more than willing to put their heads above the parapet and say things that you could never say before.

17:50One of the great, great memories, and I'm much older than you, but one of the really defining memories of my life was watching the Olympic Games in Mexico when the three runners took the salute. Yeah, the salute. And that taught me, I mean, my parents were already, you know, they went south, you know, the civil rights. My brother was arrested in Mississippi. We were a very liberal thinking family, but seeing the power of that salute, and their lives were ruined, by the way. Absolutely ruined. They never ran again. Yeah, never ran again. When they went back, they were ostracized back in America.

18:25You know, it was a sad state of affairs, but like it was a tragedy really but when you look at what it done and that symbol and how powerful that symbol is you know you look at the guys now they're taking the knee the girls as well where they're playing yeah yeah they're taking the knee and people say well it's run its course it doesn't it's got no it's got no effect people are not taking it what has when you talk about racism you know what has has an as has had an effect and you have to look at and you have to say you have to let people still know that you will stand against it and this is what's happening Now you've got kids at their little football matches.

18:59They will take the knee. They'll do it on their little football pitches because they are aware of it. And that is how it changes. Education is the way. Because if someone's ignorant to something, they're going to be against it. When you teach them what's going on and they understand it, you can no longer be ignorant to it. Racism is ignorance. If you reach people, teach people, they'll lose their ignorance. When do you think it really started changing? Was it when they also realised that black players were really important? Oh, there's recently a song. I think when it really caught hold of the world and people really started to say, well, well, well, enough is enough.

19:39Obviously Colin Kaepernick taking the knee for injustice and inequality. But like George Floyd, the death of George Floyd really brought it to people's attention that no, no, no, come on now. You know, come on. Are there places that you wouldn't play? In respects of, there's no way that I wouldn't play because I feel that, again, you have to play. You know, I've been in stadiums where people have targeted you. I've watched my son being targeted, my friends. It's happened to me in stadiums in England and abroad. And there's no way I wouldn't play. But I must say that if I was playing now and it happened like we're seeing it happen now, they should walk off.

20:19But you can't walk off yourself. Your team has to walk off. Yeah. And would that happen? I think that's going to happen at some stage. I think that's going to happen pretty soon. It's going to happen sooner rather than later because I feel like I say the allies and the guys, great people, Harry Kane, Jordan Henderson, all these guys, Kevin De Bruyne, great footballers, great white players who they won't take that and they will stand in solidarity with their teammates. And that is going to happen sooner rather than later because if I was playing now, I would continue to take the knee. And if I got racially abused on a football pitch, whether it is abroad or here, I would hope that my teammates would walk off with me because my character, my personality, I would do that now because the power is there to do it.

21:02But back in the day, it wasn't there. And you know what it's like? I saw just recently there's a guy playing for Real Madrid who was getting like vilified, racially abused, Vinicius Junior at Real Madrid. And you could see the pain he was going through to the point he just stood there and the tears just started to come down his face because he was being racially abused. He was the one that got sent off. after being racially abused and the crowd were abusing him called monkey chants and stuff and what I saw with him when he stood there and the tears coming down is something that I've I've had to deal with myself because you're you're helpless you feel humiliated and like I said there's nothing you can do and so that feeling is something that you know you don't want people to have to to have to go through especially in this time at any time but especially in these times when we do something there was a very long time ago there was a presented you know michael parkinson yes and you've probably seen it on youtube but there was an interview between him muhammad ali no with david beckham and george best okay george best was comparing or actually david beckham very respectfully said i'm not going to talk on this couch i want you know george best he should he's the person we all want to listen to and what he said was you know he came from poverty you know a very unprotected family.

22:19And he said there was no safety net for being famous. There was no safety net for being suddenly. He was the first best. And that now there is a safety net for players of the big teams or who become celebrities and that they're taken care of, they're looked after. And I think what you're saying is that there may be now, they may have a safety net, but it might not include racism. No, but it will. Because you have to have that belief. because there's enough people out there fighting for it. You know, it's totally different when you look at what George Best went through, adulation, Beckham. We're looking at someone now, Jack Grealish.

22:56It's going through the same. You're just hoping that, you know, we saw what Gaza went through and how it kind of like, what the effects it had on Gaza. But when you're getting that kind of adulation, that kind of love, that can affect you in a certain way. I think David Beckham, obviously, you know, he's dealt with it very, very well. Unbelievably, unfortunately. you know Gaza I didn't deal with it so well George Best was the first like the fifth beat or he didn't he was he was paving the way you know you were going to talk about Muhammad Ali well I was you were going to when you asked you and you know again another hero not the thing with with Muhammad Ali I remember when I was younger it was the interview he had and I even saw it again the other day with Michael Parkinson and how, you know, listening to somebody that everybody loved, white people, everybody loved him the greatest, and listening to how he navigated that interview with Michael Parkinson and twisted him with intelligence.

23:56And I remember one of the things that stuck out in my mind was, in my memory, sorry, was him saying, listen, you can't beat me mentally and you can't beat me physically and I remember listening to that but like what was good about it was it made me realise to see a very intelligent black great man there and obviously very learned and that made you think I want to be like that I want to be able to hold that conversation and put that back on you so as then we can have the conversation where we can move on and go to a better place. And that's what it was. He did, because the questions that he was asking, it was almost like he was trying to test and belittle and he was just too smart for that.

24:45And that is why, you know, I remember meeting him one time in Brixton and then we came over and he kissed my hand. And I kissed his hand and he kissed my hand back. And it was when he's just getting to the place where he's just a little bit slow and that. And it was a moment like, I don't know, touched me deep emotionally.

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26:20What's up there? They are grilled marinated peppers, which are one of my favourite things that we're just starting to do. They're on the menu every day now, so you blacken them off on the grill, steam them with a lid over them, peel them back, and then you marinate them with loads of vinegar. And is that just ready to go now? Yeah, that'll be ready to go. We might try that. Yeah, we'll definitely give you a taste. Yeah, I'll try one of those. Harry, no pressure. Nice one. Thanks, Luke. No worries.

26:52So when you were growing up and you were in school and you were having school food and you were having difficulties, did you turn to any kind of food that would make you feel more comfortable? I tell you what I did absolutely adore is sometimes you might go around to your friend's house on a Sunday, maybe after football. And we didn't have roasts because, like I say, we had we had the rice and peas and chicken every Sunday without fail to the point where I remember smelling the peas in the morning and just burst into tears because I get the same thing. That's why I kind of went off kidney beans for many, many years.

27:27I just I just didn't like the size of them. I didn't like the color of them. I just ate them too much to the point I used to separate them from the rice when we were younger. I remember going to my friend's house, my white friend Johnny's house, and he had Yorkshire pudding. I never tasted anything so nice in my life. I couldn't believe it. That was something that I craved. I remember I used to say to my mom, can we have Yorkshire pudding? Can we have Yorkshire pudding? She would never get it. We'd never have it. So obviously when I got older, you get to a point, Especially once I was able to afford it and stuff like that.

28:01Because like I say, getting to 2021, I was still eating the same stuff, doing the same things. But then when you start to kind of branch out with the world that I'm now traveling, with the football club, and you're going to different places, different cultures, you start to eat different things. So now I will try everything. And the same with Nance. I have to try something new. One of the things of doing these podcasts and these talking with people is that many of them do measure success through their ability to have choice of food. So they can go to a restaurant, they can order a good glass of wine, they can order.