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Podcast Summary: Ruthie's Table 4 - Episode with J.J. Martin
Podcast Overview Title: Ruthie's Table 4 Host: Ruthie Rogers Guest: J.J. Martin, founder of La Double J Episode Theme: A discussion on Italian culture, food, design, and personal journeys.
Key Themes Explored
- Connection through Food:
- The episode emphasizes the role of food as a means of connection, heritage, and personal expression.
- Ruthie and J.J. share the sentiment that food is integral to identity and cultural expression.
- Italian Influence:
- Both women express a profound admiration for Italian culture, particularly its approach to lifestyle, cuisine, and design.
- J.J. reflects on her transition to living in Italy and how it has influenced her creativity.
- Cooking Philosophy:
- Cooking in Italy is described as an art form rather than a strict science, encouraging intuition over recipes.
- J.J. shares her initial struggles with Italian cooking, learning to appreciate simplicity and quality over complexity.
Episode Highlights
Introduction & Personal Stories
- Parallel Lives:
- Ruthie and J.J. discover similarities in their experiences as New Yorkers who moved to Italy for love and creativity.
- Shared Values:
- Both women value creativity, beauty, and a connection to their heritage through food.
Recipe Discussion
- Prosciutto and Radicchio Tagliatelle:
- J.J. reads a recipe from the River Cafe cookbooks, highlighting its seasonal aspects and simplicity.
- They discuss the importance of high-quality ingredients in Italian cooking.
Cooking Experience in Italy
- Cultural Cooking Differences:
- J.J. explains how her understanding of cooking evolved after embracing Italian customs, such as learning to trust intuition rather than strict recipes.
- The women discuss the importance of cooking techniques and ingredient quality.
Food as Comfort
- Comfort Food:
- J.J. shares her complex relationship with sugar and comfort foods, shifting toward simpler pasta dishes as a source of comfort.
- Culinary Memories:
- They reminisce about childhood food experiences and how these shaped their current culinary preferences.
Key Takeaways
- Culinary Journey:
- J.J. describes her struggles with adapting to Italian cooking, moving from a structured approach to a more instinctual one.
- Surrendering to Culture:
- Emphasizing the need to embrace local customs and practices, J.J. discusses her journey of surrendering to the beauty and chaos of Italian life.
- Pasta as Comfort:
- The choice of pasta as a comfort food underscores the simplicity and emotional ties to home cooking.
- Cultural Reflections:
- The discussion reflects on the differences between Italian and American approaches to food, family, and life, highlighting the slower, more relational Italian lifestyle.
Conclusion The conversation between Ruthie and J.J. Martin serves as a celebration of Italian culture through the lens of food, personal experiences, and a shared appreciation for beauty and creativity. Their lively discussion encapsulates the essence of Ruthie's Table 4, inviting listeners to explore their own food memories and connections.
Additional Resources
For more information about the River Cafe and recipes, visit
- [River Cafe Website](https://rivercafe.co.uk/)
- [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/)
- [Facebook](https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/)
Note: This episode includes detailed discussions about food, culture, and personal anecdotes that can resonate with anyone interested in exploring the connections between food and identity.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This is an iHeart Podcast.
0:30Experience cloud-like comfort with high-resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity, and the modular pieces can be rearranged anytime. Check out washablesofas.com and get up to 60 % off your Anabay sofa, backed by a 30-day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping or restocking fees. Every penny back. Upgrade now at washablesofas.com. offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply. J.J. Martin and I, though years apart, have had parallel lives. We're women, New Yorkers, who left there to live abroad for a short time, for love, and stayed forever for love.
1:17Mine was for Richard Rogers, hers was for Andrea Ciccoli, and the magic of everything Italian. A friend once told me that living in a foreign city makes you creative, even if you do nothing all day. But creativity defines JJ Martin and she definitely does not do nothing all day. Though she claims since moving to Milan she has surrendered into the beautiful chaos that is Italy and through rigor and discipline created a brilliant business, La Double J, the fashion, design and lifestyle brand. We have much in common, strong values in our workspace, respect for the people we deal with every day and a passion for color, a passion for beauty.
1:56Maybe a few different things too. JJ is a maximalist. Well, I'm probably more of a minimalist. She loves vintage clothing, whilst I've never worn anything anyone else has worn. But today, we'll share our parallel lives, our love for Italy, our love for food, our love for fashion, beauty. And I am confident that by the end of our time together, we will add our love for a new friendship and a love for each other. How beautiful. I love that introduction. I'm honored. It's so nice because we both know of each other through friends, which is always the great connection. I always think life is about connections.
2:32Maybe we could start by your reading a recipe that you chose. And it comes from, I think, our River Cafe easy book. But it is a really great that you chose this recipe now because it is very seasonal with a radicchio. It's creamy and warm and what we kind of need right now. So would you like to read the recipe? I would love to read Prosciutto and Radicchio Tagliatelle. 350 grams of tagliatelle, six slices of prosciutto, one head of radicchio, one garlic clove peeled and finely chopped, two teaspoons of rosemary leaves finely chopped, 50 grams of parmesan reggiano, grated, 110 grams of unsalted butter.
3:15So what you do is you cut the prosciutto and radicchio into ribbons that are the same width as the tagliatelle. You melt half the butter in a thick-bottomed pan. You add the garlic and rosemary, and you cook for a minute. Then add half the chopped radicchio and prosciutto, and you cook it just to wilt. Then you cook the tagliatelle in boiled salted water until al dente. Drain and add the rest of the butter and half the parmesan. Combine with the cooked radicchio, then stir in the remaining radicchio and prosciutto. Toss thoroughly and serve with parmigiano. Thank you. So you've said that cooking in Italy is an art, not a science.
3:58And you could practically get laughed out of town were you to use a cookbook. Can you talk to me about that? So I moved to Italy in 2001. I had no friends, no family, no job, no smartphone, no wireless. I was lost and I had no cooking skills. And back at that time, there was really no takeout food whatsoever. If you wanted to get anything taken out, you would get a pizza. Otherwise, everyone was either in a restaurant or at their home cooking. And I went into a panic. I went into like my overachieving American mode of needing to like conquer this, like I did everything else in my life. So I ordered the Dean and DeLuca cookbook online, which was sort of my only reference point of like how, you know, how to make some Italian food.
4:46And I was reading this cookbook like a novel every night. I was taking notes and I was practicing recipes from this book, not knowing that it was the least Italian kind of book I could have ever been working from because each recipe had 45 ingredients and would take two and a half hours. And I didn't, it wasn't until I really started watching the Italians and being part of their environment that I realized that first of all, no one cooks from a recipe. Everyone has learned from their mother or grandmother. And even if they do kind of have like a, you know, a basis of a recipe, the whole idea is to really let your intuition take over and let the magic and real creativity come over.
5:36And it was so funny because, you know, in these, it took a long time for me to learn this. I've been in Italy 22 years now, but I would say like my first 10 years, I was still in this place of like really trying to understand food. I did take one cooking class at an Italian restaurant down in the Naviglio called Tano Passami L 'Olio. And I was at this, you know, table with like 14 housewives, not understanding that this was not a beginner's cooking thing. Like these women knew how to cook. And so he would always say the beginning of the recipe was like, fa una crema, fa una crema. And I was like, what's a crema?
6:12How do you fare una crema? Like I didn't know how to do anything. And he would give us these sheets where the ingredients were written down and there was no quantity. No method? Was there a method? No. There was no, well, maybe a little bit of method, but very approximate and literally no quantity. So the funny thing about this recipe of reading this prosciutto radicchio, it is a very Italian recipe, except for the fact that you have included quantities. Yeah. Yeah. That's so funny. But, you know, I think that it's really endearing that you got a Dean and DeLuca cookbook, because I think that if you don't know how to cook and really want to follow a recipe, then it gives you the confidence to go away.
6:55It's like fashion. It's like drawing. It's like poetry. You can't write free poetry unless you know the rigor of a Shakespeare sonnet. Then you can depart. So maybe unless you have a mother or a father, maybe, who taught you to cook every day in your house, as you say, your Italian friends, following a recipe and then leaving it maybe is okay. Yeah, I think it gives you the muscles and the training wheels and just the comfort around being in a kitchen, around preparing ingredients, around seeing how, you know, oil at different temperatures changes, you know, even cooking vegetables. I mean, it's the other thing I find really interesting.
7:32I was reminded as I was reading your recipe here, Italian recipes are known for their simplicity. But at the same time, there's two things that I've learned that are essential. Number one is the quality of the ingredients. Because they're so few, you can't masquerade anything. So if you don't have incredible quality radicchio, and by the way, I highly recommend Trevisio. Trevisio. It's the best. Less bitter. But, you know, you need to have the best butter, the best parmigiano, the best rosemary. Otherwise, nothing's happening. And the other thing is technique. So the fact that you are, you know, adding half, you're adding the vegetables at different times, you're cooking them at different, it's not as sort of, there's an art really to the way they prepare it that is really important.
8:21I totally agree with you about Italian food. I lived in Paris for five years, six years, and my husband is doing a project there. And I love French food. I love a sauce. I love finding that piece of turbot under a beurre blanc. But then you go to Italy, and the first meal I had was a piece of toast, bruschetta, with a little bit of garlic, and then the olive oil. And that was three ingredients, but had any one of them been any less interesting or of the quality, it wouldn't have worked. And it's so funny you bring up France because one thing that I was so surprised about when I moved to Italy was how proud Italians are of their cuisine and they're quite close-minded to other cuisines.
9:06So you never want to travel with an Italian outside of the Italian borders because they're complaining about the food the entire time. And the other thing which I find so funny is no matter how good it is, French food sucks. They hate French food. And one of the reasons why they tell me, because I really got curious about this, they don't like a sauce unless it's on a pasta. And then it can't be too sauced. It has to be the right amount of sauce. So most Americans tend to oversauce and overcook their pasta. So these are just all these small subtleties. But like, for example, an Italian would never put a sauce on a meat.
9:47That's a big no-no. So it's just funny. Or even a fish. They don't use sauces generally. When you have bolito misto, you have the salsa verde. But they're very separate. They're very specific. Very specific. Yeah, yeah. Very, very specific. In general, they're just like, too much. No, no, no. Topo salsa. Yeah, but if you have a great piece of fish, you don't. We have Ceci here, who's one of the chefs in the River Cafe. And you don't. If it's, as you say, it's a great piece of grilled sea bass, why would you do anything more? Yeah. And that's the, I mean, this is what's so amazing about Italy is they distill everything down to raw, its purest state.
10:23So, you know, you just want the crispness of the lemon and the juicy fragrance of the olive oil. I mean, the other thing that I got, there was an education in olive oil. Who knew? You know, the guy who I was referring to before about where I was taking the cooking classes, his restaurant was called Tano Passamilolio. And he walked in and he had probably 400 olive oils lining every wall of the restaurant. And he was an expert at pairing. People would go to his restaurant because there would be a different olive oil paired with every plate daily. And it was this wonderful symphony that is such a subtlety that you develop.
11:06But once you get rid of, I mean, I think it's a really good metaphor for life. Like once you get rid of all the noise, then suddenly your senses are so much more attuned. And then you're really seeing the beauty of something so simple as an oil. Just to go back from your incredible palate and your interest in food and chili and ingredients and the way to cook. Growing up, you grew up in Los Angeles? Yes, I grew up in Los Angeles. Tell me about early life in the Martin household. Okay, well, I do remember the spaghetti sauce my mom put ketchup in. Yeah, okay. We had a very food-centric household because we were all athletes.
11:49And there was copious amounts of food being made and consumed. So my mom actually did make a lot of stuff. My dad was a hunter and a fisherman. So our freezers were stocked with dove, quail, deer, boar. I mean, the thing is he would go out hunting and bring it all back and we would eat this stuff for a long time. It was never really my thing. Did you ever go hunting with him? I did. I did. And then I just didn't want to kill animals. It just wasn't my thing. So I would hang out. I have two older brothers. They were really into this. So I went on a lot of camping, fishing, hunting trips as a young girl and wasn't into it.
12:31Yeah. And being athletes, do they want protein or carbs? This was before knowing that they needed to have the right balance between protein and carbs. They were just starving. I remember so well that we would all come back from whatever. I was in gymnastics. They were in volleyball. We would all come back at like 10 p.m. And we've already had like four meals by that point because my mom used to pack our dinners. We would have Stouffer's frozen food that would be put in a thermos and that we would eat before practice. And then, you know, like at four o 'clock or five o 'clock. And then we'd have another meal when we came home.
13:08We were eating like four times a day. As a gymnast as well. As a gymnast, I was eating a ton of food. Did you have to keep your weight in a certain level or was that not? Well, the thing was I was twice as large as every other gymnast because I was so tall. I mean, I was literally eight inches taller than most people. And, you know, you're working. I was working out three hours every day, six days a week. And that wasn't seasonal. It was all year round. So I did that for about nine years. So it's just an incredible amount of calories that you're burning. How old were you when you started? I started like the hardcore club gymnastics at nine years old.
13:43And then I finished when I was 18. Yeah, so it was really intense. And I, you know, I went to an all girls high school, also very rigorous. So I had this upbringing that was very tight. And that's also has been such a wonderful thing that I explore in this book, the Mama Milano, about the loosening, the softening, the relaxing. Because I really didn't learn that from an early age. And, you know, taking it back to food, it was not relaxing while we ate because everyone was scared that it was all going to be gone. So we were all like fighting and grabbing for the food. So it wasn't this like long, luxurious, you know, relaxing moment.
14:25It was like, you know, scarfing it down as soon as possible. Did your father cook? Was there any man? My dad barbecued. Yeah, that's the thing. Men barbecue and, you know, that's very often the case. And my mom would make really nice stuffings for the meats. It's like I didn't eat the meat so much. I'm not into game. And actually now it's so funny. I know I chose this prosciutto in radicchio tagliatelle. I've since become a vegetarian. So I really don't eat meat or fish. But this recipe was my first and favorite from your cookbook. And it was one that I did so many times and it was so easy. And I was like, this is Italian cookies.
15:05That's why I wanted to share it. You can actually have it without the prosciutto. Yeah, of course. You can make it now. We do it a lot, the radicchio. But sometimes we do a sofrito with the radicchio. So we put a bit of, you know, onion and garlic and really cook it down. And then don't we, Sassy? And then you know what I would add? Maybe if I was doing vegetarian, I would add some toasted pine nuts and maybe just a tiny bit of formaggio, like even another formaggio, just to like, I mean, depends. But I think it's a great recipe. Do you want to say something about, have you made this recipe in the River Cafe?
15:37I have. Okay, talk about it. This is Sassy. Sassy from Rome. From Rome, sounding very English. What I love is that the radicchio is the same shape as the pasta. And so you have like this mouthful and you can't quite differentiate which part is which, but it all sort of is the same shape and it's so delicious when it all comes together. And that is exactly one of the things that I was saying. It's like you can have all the same ingredients, but it's about how you prep it. It's how you cook it. Exactly. There are these very simple subtleties that make all the difference. Yeah, and as long as the ingredients are the freshest and the most beautiful, which we have here at the River Cafe, it just transforms the dish completely, makes it something really special.
16:17Is that the mentee? I still can't believe Sassi is Italian because her English is so English. She's gorgeous. She's amazing. When you left this home of family meals and your mother cooking and your dad barbecuing and hunting and fishing and, you know, shooting and doing all that. Not fashion at all. No one, nothing was fashionable. I thought about what you had, but then you went to university. I went to Berkeley. You went to Berkeley. And was that a big change in terms of food for you? Well, unfortunately, I didn't know who Alice Waters was at that time. And I didn't, you know, I wasn't, you know, probably in the position to go eat there.
16:52But the food was quite sophisticated, even just around Berkeley. I remember, you know, I lived in a sorority house. So we actually had these buffets of wonderful food. And there was an incredible cook there. I've always been a baker. Like that was something that I knew from a young age. My mom was baking a lot. She made a lot of really great desserts. So the cook at our sorority house would always be making these wonderful homemade American cookies that I now cannot find in Italy if my life depended on it. Like what? Which one? Just like anything. Chocolate chip. Chewy. Yes. Ginger, molasses, oatmeal, raisin.
17:31And all of those, like the chewiness and the sort of softness, brown sugar is an ingredient that just doesn't seem to exist in Italy the way we use it in America and in the UK. And they don't use as much butter, I noticed, Italians in general. So I would say the only kind of food group that's missing for me in Italy are the desserts, really. Well, Italians, I always, you know, we always say Italians have their cakes for breakfast and their ice cream on the streets and then an espresso for dessert. You know, the idea... And espresso bread, you're so right. And I've been in homes where the food is so good.
18:06And then they'll bring out one of those kind of custardy pies with the custard and then the fruit on the top. And you think, what relationship does this have to do with the most amazing pasta sauce we just had? No, they don't. They do not. Actually, I have two small complaints with Italian cuisine. One is the desserts and one is the bread. Oh, yeah. Well, you're not even in Tuscany. wait till you get to Tuscany and there's no salt I mean it's like a cardboard it's a piece of cardboard it's so true tell us what's nice though is it's kind of like a vessel so it can carry whatever you put on it because it has no taste so when you do then you taste the new oils and you put them on that bread but I know what you mean though the focaccia is the sort of more saltier, oilier one and focaccia is wonderful but it's not bread there's sometimes when I just miss bread and butter.
18:58Yeah, butter. I love butter. And it's not a cult, we don't have, there's not a culture for that. And there are certain things that I learned, you know, one of the messages of this book that I wrote was surrendering to what is in Italy instead of always looking at what was not there. And at the beginning, I was like, where are the avocados? Where's the cilantro? Where's my nonfat milk? You know, I was trying to find all these things. Where's my butter? Where's my good bread. And what I realized so much of the exercise of living and embracing Italy is just allowing yourself to melt into the wonder and the magic and the beauty that is there.
19:36Because once you do that, you will be rocket shipped off the planet into ecstasy. It's amazing. You should probably say that with most travel, you know, that living in another country that you do if it's Mexico or if you were in China or Japan that you, you know, as you say, surrender. I think it's really interesting the way you use the word surrender so often. I really had to learn it. And you use it in a very energetic and positive way rather than giving up, you know. It's not, you know, in military terms, you surrender by, you know, giving them your flag and we've surrendered. Whereas you're using surrender as embracing, I would say.
20:14Absolutely. You're much more embracing the culture that you're living in. Talk to me more about the book and talk to me what you were trying. So it's so funny. You know, when I first started my company, Le Double J, in 2015, I was selling my collection of vintage clothing and I was showing it on all of the creative women in Milan. The women that I, you know, as a journalist for 15 years, they didn't want me writing about those women. They wanted me interviewing George Romani and Dolce & Gabbana and the advertisers. But I had found that there was this like incredible cluster of the most creative, cool, shockingly adept housemakers in Milan.
20:52Like I couldn't believe that there were these women that had these incredible creative careers and that could still turn out dinner beautifully or entertaining flawlessly. Their homes were decorated incredibly. Everything, even their pantry closets were amazing. And there was so much to learn from them. And I launched the website. I had this whole section on, you know, how to live like an Italian and the school of Shura. A Shura is an Italian or a Milanese housewife, which these women were not housewives, but they had all the tools and they had all the techniques. And they had the time? Well, they're well-staffed.
21:24I was going to wait for that clause because I think to do that, to work all day and then do all that. They know how to. It's a division of power. But like, you know, what I've also learned as having a company, so much of that is understanding like what you can farm out to others, like what should be your own purview and what you can share with others. And the thing is, they don't just farm it all out. You know, they know what can be done and then they know that they should be tasting the sauce here and making, you know, they really know their own. They have the mastery of each of these skills.
22:00Anyway, during COVID, a book agent came to me and said, JJ, you know, everyone is miserable. They've been inside their homes. I think we need a book on all of this brilliance and exuberance that is Italy and all those images that you've produced. Over the years, I've done so many photos of tabletops and our homeware and food and the fashion. And I said, you know, it feels like kind of a cliche. I feel like, you know, we've seen a lot of books like this. I'm happy to give it to you. But if I do that, I also want to tell the real story, which was I was miserable in Italy for my first five years there.
22:37And I was fighting against the system. I was irritated at every turn. I was getting pissed off. I was fighting with people at cocktail parties because their movies were dubbed and I was like against dubbing. I mean the most like absurd superficial things. I found myself in bank lines for two hours for no reason just to like deposit a check. I mean, just, you know, the inefficiency, et cetera. And it really took me so, I mean, I could feel my whole body system in resistance and rejection of everything that was around me. And I was rejecting the food. I was rejecting the customs, the traditions, the timetables, the rhythms.
23:17Everything was wrong in my mind. And this was just my hubris. This was my American privilege coming over and thinking that like my way was better than like 5 ,000 years of expertise. And so the book is a journey of surrender and of letting go of that judgment, that criticism, needing to have things my way and slipping into what is actually a very feminine energetic of Italy. So that's why it's called Mama Milano because later in my life I developed a spiritual practice. I started learning the difference between masculine and feminine energies, the yin and the yang, the divine mother. And I'm like, this is Italy.
24:05And like America was so quite patriarchal and go and move and it's all about checking off things and it's very transactional. And I realized Italy is a feeling-based culture. It's a relationship-based culture. And I had a lot to learn. So the book is filled with all the lessons that I learned that, of course, were how to, you know, decorate my table and decorate the house, get myself dressed, but really how to become a better person. Did you ever think of leaving? Oh, yeah. Yeah. But you stayed. As critical as I am, I'm also as stubborn. So I was like, you know, I had made this decision to move to Italy, followed a guy, and I was like, I wasn't going to give up.
24:51You know, the thing about Italy is that with all the, we look at Italy and there's, you know, one political party, then there's another, then there's another, then there's a minister of finance, and then there's another, and then the way they run the transportation in Florence is different from Padova. And it just seems to be that. Chaotic. But. Chaotic. No, but you know what? They do it so well. You know, they look at Italy, you know, they produce beautiful clothes, they produce beautiful cars. I remember sitting in the cafe in Florence and every young woman would come and dress so beautifully.
25:27And I think, how do they, are they all kind of making a huge amount of money? And how do they spend that much money on a dress by Prada or a pair of trousers by Dolce Cabana? And somebody pointed out that they're probably all living at home. Oh, yeah. And they're not paying rent. Oh, 100%. And I thought that's so clever. You know, we're all knocking ourselves to my kids to pay, you know, to live in a flat with 16 other people and do that. And, you know, they can't go to the movies or you can't go to the theater or you can't buy whatever you want to buy. And then Italy kind of works in its way.
25:59Absolutely. And the family. And that reinforces this very important focus and importance of the family. and I talk about the mother because that's the center of the family and the table is the center of the family and I don't have the numbers this is not a scientific statement I have no data to support this but I will just say of all the Italians I've met versus all of the Americans the Italians are some of the most well adjusted easy going, happy personally satisfied human beings whereas a lot of Americans that I know are really struggling I think a lot of it has, it's not necessarily about food, but so much of it is like this sense of tolerance that the Italians have.
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26:45And they are at a slower pace and that's okay. And they get it done. And they get it done. Do you agree? What do you think about, because you lived in. I lived in Florence when I was a baby and then I also lived in Paris. I've spent most of my time living in England. That's why I sound very English. I know what you mean, but the pace is much slower, but everything still gets done. And to the highest standard. And it's funny because that family central unit, I know my father when he was growing up in Rome, when you go to university, if you go to university, you live at home with your family, which is such a foreign concept here in England.
27:21And it's not something uncool. No, it's completely normal. Yeah. It's actually quite strange if you don't. Your underwear is going to get ironed by your mom. I mean, it's like amazing. It's interesting about that, again, about women. I always say if you go to, when we go on the wine trips, We all go to Italy to taste the new oil and the wine. And we go there and we look fine. But then you go into some little cafe or bar in a hill town in Chianti, and all the guys are wearing iron shirts, and they're all looking so smart. And you do wonder about the mothers at home who are doing that and the women.
27:55And I'm sure there's going to tell me, people are going to say, I'm not ironing your shirt. I'm just not doing it. I have a book to read or a book to write or something I'm going to travel. And it's, you know, it's one of the concerns about it's as simple as jarring tomatoes, you know, who's going to do that? Yeah, and I do see things. Maybe nobody should do it. Maybe robots can do it instead of this romanticization of we're all going to stay home and put tomatoes in jars. Or maybe, you know, because everybody else is going to be doing every other thing, that will be something that we want to do.
28:27You know, that will be something we love doing. I was seeing men get way more involved in things that I like, you know, jarring things. And there's a real return also I've seen in the last 20 years. I used to be a journalist covering fashion and design for many publications. And one publication, Wallpaper, was always really interested in like all the artisans. So I was always interviewing Italian artisans. And what was so cool was that you had these artisans that were like 70 plus. And then there was this whole new generation of 25-year-olds that realized how cool it was to be a carpenter or woodworker and to make something with the hands.
29:08But there was kind of like that 50-year gap. So I do think that there's... Italy has wonderful values. And it takes longer to figure it out. It's more chaotic. It's less organized. It's less dependable. But once you understand the rhythms, once you start realizing that actually all you need is to make friends, you know, your life just, you know, it just unravels. It's such a gift to me.
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30:38That's why over 200 ,000 happy customers have made the switch. Upgrade your space today. Visit washablesofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply We just had JJ Martin here and I'm here with Sean now and we're talking about shops because she is in retail she's in design she's into spirituality and so there is a kind of parallel life although she's in Milan and we're in London of loving beautiful things and she's going to open a store in New York that has a room downstairs where you can meditate, where you have a kind of spiritual experience as well as shopping upstairs.
31:26I don't know what our spiritual experience would be in the River Cafe. We've got a piano. We have a piano. That's spiritual. And so especially right now with Christmas, you know, so I think if joyousness is spiritual, which it is, I think there's such a joy in our shop, the colors, You know, especially the matches and the books and the bags that we've branded ourselves, that we've put our signature on. So this is our shop. We thought we'd show you around a little bit. And we've got lots of our Christmas things going on at the moment. So we've had lots of fun little things. I know these Italians.
32:02Like Carla Moretti. Carla Moretti, exactly. I'm very familiar with them. This is like legit Italian. I know, it's fully. This is like, this is totally legit Italian. This is not like... So many times my friends bring me to Italian restaurants. They're never legitimate. You know, they don't really do it in the Italian way. But this is legit. You won't find Funterella in England. Ruthie! Hi! How are you? You know what I love about your shop? Is that you have very authentic Italian things, but the packaging that is like totally non-Italian. This is not very Italian. No, but it's fine. Did she see the hampers?
32:37Yeah, she loved them. Yeah. And how many years have we been doing those hampers? six do you think um maybe six i remember when you sat us down and said why don't we do the alternative for the kind of fortnum and mason hamper instead of putting little jars of things that you just kind of give away to make river cafe hamper that's been a big learning curve for us isn't it because once when the brief is that nothing in the hamper gets put in the back of a cupboard you we that was one of our defining things that we had given away to somebody who came to you know everything in it has to be you couldn't go around any shop in britain and put all those things in a box and get that for the you know the price which so it felt like an honest product but also if i had to feel like something that we would all like to receive and ruthie would like to receive so that that was our also we put books in it was so nice when we could put one of our books in one year we put a book of richards and we wanted always to put music in but we've never achieved that.
33:37A playlist. A playlist. And the glasses, as you say, and I think the joy of the box itself. People really love the box. They talk about opening up a brown package and seeing this pink and yellow box and opening that up and finding a beautifully packed... Yeah, and this year we were in Venice and we found this really great linen shop and they've done these napkins for us this year which are really nice cocktail napkins and we often go around the shop ourselves and covet things that we want to buy because it's just so what would you buy this year i love the fruit jellies i think they are bring back a fruit jelly i say that's quite an old-fashioned thing they they're really beautiful i love the cocktail stirrers i i'm sensing a trend if anyone wants to buy me anything shout out what else is that But the kids' coloring book is really cool.
34:34I like the playing cards. And also, hello, the crackers. We have great crackers. Well, that's a bit of fun because trying to design a cracker where you've got something in it that doesn't get just thrown away. We felt that was the hardest challenge. But this year we've done these really cute badges. They're like a kind of enamel pin. My favorite is a spaghetti vongolet badge.
34:59the river cafe is excited to announce the return of our italian christmas gift boxes our alternative to the traditional hamper they bring you all of our favorites from the river cafe kitchen the vineyards and the designers from all over italy they're available to pre-order now
35:29You worked for Calvin Klein before you went to Italy, and I remember a very good friend of mine worked with Calvin Klein, and she was in quite a senior position, but they had a rule that if anybody sent you flowers, they had to be white. So, I mean, talk about control. I mean, I kind of respect it, because sometimes you go into this array of kind of flowers in every single color, But it's interesting that you went from a company like that that was so, you know, controlled to what, you know, and then your joy of what you've done. And I want to talk more about your work. I felt so stifled at Calvin Klein.
36:09I have to say it was kind of a scary place to be. Even the yellow sticky pads were white. So, I mean, everything was sterilized. That was the moment in my life that I discovered vintage because I didn't have a lot of money. And the Chelsea flea market in Manhattan every weekend had this incredible vintage fair. And that was back in 1999 when prices were still incredible. And so you could just get these incredible coats and gowns. And so I was really developing that like eccentric, colorful, pattern loving thing that was always in me. You know, the Calvin aesthetic was never really my thing. But they did do beautiful clothes as well.
36:53Amazing quality. Yeah. All made in Italy. And underwear. And made in Italy, yeah. That's the other thing about Italy, the respect I have for the Italian, as you would say, either craftsmanship or workmanship. I remember the first time Rose and I went to look at where they made Parmesan. We went down this really dirty, dusty road, and it was kind of, you know, everything. You saw these barns in the background. We thought, where are we going? What are we doing? And then you walked into this kitchen where they were making the Parmesan cheese. And they could have been making rockets to go into outer space.
37:24Or they could have been doing a kind of vaccine to cure a disease. They all had masks. They had white coats. They had their hair tied up, you know. And it's a kind of inbuilt pride, which I so, so respect, you know. Did you ever go see any of the ricotta being made in Julia? Yes, I did. Yes, I did. Oh, my God. Worn for breakfast? I know, that's another parallel that maybe we don't have, because I remember taking that ricotta out of the machine and it was warm and it was hot and I thought I might be sick. But let's talk about your eating. So you eat warm ricotta for breakfast, yeah? When I can.
38:04Okay, so how do you do that? In what way do you have it? On a bad piece of bread. Oh, so you take a piece of ricotta. I prefer to have a good piece of bread, but. Okay, so you take a piece of ricotta. That we do in the River Cafe and we love that bake, don't we, Sassy? So what do we do with ricotta? Absolutely. We also bake it in our wood oven with a little bit of oregano. And so it's all slightly crispy at the edges and then really soft and warm in the middle for our starters. That's another thing. Oregano, for me, was a game changer. There were certain ingredients once you come to Italy, like olive oil, that I was like, whoa, what is that?
38:37It's like a whole new thing. Same with oregano from Sicily or from the south of Italy. wherever, especially Pantelluria, I don't know if you've ever been to the island of Pantelluria, but the capers and the oregano from that part of Italy. I like to buy food when I'm traveling to get the local, you know, the frisele from Puglia or especially the capers and the oregano are just sensational. I buy a lot of it and it's dried and then I just fill up my jars. You know, whatever. I'm not going to get cilantro in Italy. I have surrendered. Ms. Santos, you can go back to California. Exactly. I'm not getting cilantro.
39:17Do you feel, as you speak Italian beautifully and you've lived there and you have a company, do you feel linked to the country of your birth in political or socialized? Absolutely. I mean, I do. Both of my parents are deceased. I have two brothers that live around Los Angeles. But there's something really powerful. You know, my mom's family was from Los Angeles. So her grandfather moved there in the early 1900s. And so there is this kind of like ancestral thing whenever I go back and I feel it energetically. Don't you? I do too. I do. And I think the earth of our birth is so powerful and you've got to, you know, I had to do a lot of clearing there.
39:59I had to do a lot of letting go, a lot of forgiveness. And now I go back to Los Angeles and I just, I'm like, there's a reason it's called the City of Angels. I feel it. It's so potent. And that being said, I don't really want to live there all the time. I love having the kind of best of both worlds. And I don't really feel like I, you know, like either one is really my home. I don't, I feel like I'm just a home on planet Earth. Yeah. Do you find being a woman in Italy, we talk about the role of the woman as a mother, as a connector, as the person who creates the people who can then create. But do you feel as a woman that you're treated differently in business as you might be in the United States?
40:43Do you have the respect for your work that you would have? I think they're surprised every time I show up and like I'm the boss. And I think they're like, you know, they're sort of like, oh, wow. But this is the thing about Italians. They're very open-minded. Yeah. So I think that it's like it doesn't occur to them that it would happen. But when it happens, they're very open. And the thing about an Italian, if you can just connect to their heart and get them excited and motivated about something, they will do anything for you. When I started the website, all those women, they were gallery owners, they were furniture designers, architects.
41:22They weren't bankers. They were all creative people. There are quite a few powerful women. Like your prime minister. Exactly. I mean, even, you know, you see that like the Missoni family with Angela and Rosita. There's a lot of female, like the Wanda Ferragamo taking over for Salvatore. You know, Max Mara is led creatively by a woman who's been there for like 50 years. There's a lot of like Donatello Versace. There's a lot of Muccia Prada. Yeah. They're bossy. Yeah. They're strong. They're really strong. They're not like men calling us bossy. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. You're right. You know, I'm actually living in like a...
42:03Men are ambitious and then women are bossy, but that's all right. You're right. But we can be bossy too. Bossy is okay. How many people work for you? 70. 70. One of whom is Julia. I'm bossy. Sorry, I'll just say I'm bossy so everyone feels better about this.
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43:14Plus, they're earth-friendly and trusted by over 200 ,000 happy customers. It's time to upgrade to a stress-free, mess-proof sofa. Visit washablesofas.com today and save. That's washablesofas.com. Offers are subject to change. and certain restrictions may apply. Cesar, you told me the story about the kitchen. I did. I did read somewhere that when you were searching for a new kitchen for your house in Milan, you had a friend of yours who suggested that there was a sort of 90s polyform kitchen. Would you mind telling us the story? There was. So I was newly divorced. I had to start a home from scratch.
43:54And, you know, when you move into apartments in Italy, there's generally no lights, no kitchens, no closets. It doesn't matter if you're buying or renting, like it's just, they're empty boxes. You basically have to start from scratch. So it's quite like an expense. I was like, I guess I'm getting an Ikea kitchen. Like, I guess that's what I'm doing. And I had a friend who, um, he's a wonderful antique dealer, Raimondo Goral. Look him up when you're in Milan. He has just the most fabulous eye, finds pieces so special. And I always kind of refer to him anytime that I'm doing something new and I just, this is so Italian.
44:31Come over, let's have a cup of coffee and talk about my new creative project. This happens all the time. So he came over and he was like, you know what? I think there's a signora. I'm buying some other stuff from her. She might have a kitchen. Let me just see. He calls me up a few days later. He's like, yeah, you know, she's got this 90s polyformed kitchen. It's Bordeaux red. And, but you know, it's about, what did he say? What's this? Like 20 centimeters, something like, he's like, it's 20 centimeters too short for your wall. I was like, Raimondo, I can handle like a 20 centimeter hole. I mean, that was so Italian that he had, like it had to go all the way to that.
45:10I'm like, I'll use it as a broom closet. So the next thing I know, this marble topped polyformed kitchen that cost me, in order to buy it, ship it, and install it ship it, it was in Milan, but bring it over, cost me less than going to get a new tricked out IKEA kitchen. And it brings me so much satisfaction. This kitchen is so gorgeous. And I love cooking on it. I mean, the only problem is that they don't have gas. It's an electric. It's annoying. Yeah. I have a kitchen story, which is that my husband, Richard Rogers, was building the Lloyds building. And when we moved into our house, we do have an island unit.
45:49You'll have to come and see it. It's stainless steel and it has five burners. So it's in the living space. It's very, very minimalist. And this is before I was cooking in a restaurant. And we've had it for 40 years. And for the last, I'd say, 20 years, you can't light all five burners. At the same time? No, no. So you can light one and then maybe you can light the other. And so every engineer in London would come over and try and fix the gas and try and do this and try and do that. And I went into Bofi, you know, Bofi, which is really fancy Italian. The fanciest of the fancy. And I went over there and I was talking to the guy and I said, you know, I told him, he said, Richard Rogers' house, amazing.
46:27I'd love to go. I'll solve this problem for you. And I would come in and he'd be lying on the floor underneath the island unit drawing, you know, all the gas and the places and where the gas flowed. And I, how's it going? He's going, fine, you know, I'm really doing well. He left, and then three days later we got a letter from him. He said, dear Ruth Rogers and Richard Rogers, I've spent five days in your kitchen, and what I really think is that it's the most beautiful kitchen I've ever seen and that you should donate it to the Museum of Modern Art in New York and buy a boffy kitchen, which we didn't do.
47:05I still have, you know, 30 years later. You have to light it 10 times, but a kitchen is important. It's important. How you work in it, how you live in it, how you make it work for you. And it's so funny because I also found that when I was a journalist, I found the process of cooking so helpful. Because whenever I had a creative block and I couldn't write, I could cook. And then I would get back into the flow because so much of creativity is just allowing yourself to get into that frequency. And it was so healthy and satisfying for me. The bigger my company gets and the more responsibility I have and the more travel I have, I find it very challenging to spend as much time cooking.
47:48I usually do it on the weekends. But it's really nice. I'm in a new relationship now. And it's so fun to have a boyfriend that cooks for me. I'm like, this is the sexiest thing that could ever happen. Yeah, we said that to Michael Caine the first interview we did because there's a scene in his movie, The Ipcrest File, where he seduces a woman by cooking for her. It's amazing. No, it is so, because not only is it, I mean, it's just, it's so nurturing. And they're like so self-reliant and it's just such a gift. It's really amazing. And so what do you, what would you like to do next? What is your plan?
48:22Do you have a kind of idea of where you'd like to be in a year's time, five years' time, next month or next week? Okay, so next year I'd like to have a store open in New York, and I'd like it to kind of be weird. Like my Milan store, we have a Divine Mother Goddess cave downstairs you have to come and visit. What is a Divine Mother Goddess cave? Before I say I'm coming to visit? I'm not committing to anything. I don't know what it is. So it's underground. underground, I commissioned this artist from Romania to kind of create this whole descent into the feminine, into like the darkness. And so she's got all of these symbols, mystical symbols that she's painted.
49:01And then I asked her to paint me five manifestations of the divine mother. So you have Kali, you have Kuan Yin, you have Mother Mary, Isis, and Green Tara. And they're all mother frequencies from different wisdom traditions, etc. But they're all really talking about the same thing, which is this feminine energetic. I really started getting like obsessed with this. You know, it was like Italy was teaching me this. I was learning about it in my spiritual practice. And we use this space downstairs. We hold meditations there, yoga, spiritual channelings, all sorts of different things. So, you know, this is on the most traditional road in Milan.
49:41You've got a very untraditional thing happening. So when I go to New York, I'd like to do another thing as well, where we, maybe it would be nice also in New York to have some of our, our homeware that we, we create alongside the fashion has been popping up in little cafes here or there. And I, and I think like, it would be really nice to have a showcase for that. So maybe partnering with someone in New York, that would be a great goal. But my real goal is ultimately to buy a piece of property in Sicily and open up a retreat center. Okay. Can you do that? Why not? I think so. I think you can. I think you can do anything.
50:14I think you have. Maybe we'll grow some cilantro. I'd love to see the Sicilian take on that. I'm just kidding. It sounds to me like you can and you have done so much. And so I think before we end this really fabulous conversation, I would ask you, we've talked about food as adapting, of surrendering. We've talked about food as connecting. We've talked about food as creating. But it also is comfort. And so my last question to you, JJ, is to ask you if you need comfort. And I hope you don't very often. But if you need comfort and you want to find it in food, what would be the food you would reach for?
50:55Okay, so I'm just going to be really honest and tell you for many years, sugar was my comfort food and I was using it and abusing it. It was such a gift. It was such a friend and then it was such an enemy. So for many, many years, my comfort food was those chewy American cookies. So I would even like when I first, I was really using it as like, you know, as someone would alcohol or drugs. I mean, it was really my drug. And I would in Italy, because I couldn't find the desserts, I would make cookie dough, especially oat milk. How good is oatmeal cookie dough? It's the best. So, you know, it's a really honest question.
51:37I mean, like people do use, many people use food as true comfort. And I was using that for a long time. I try not to eat as much sugar like that because it's not good for my system. So now just a homemade plate of a spaghetti that I learned, a tagliatelle that I learned in Pantalluria that has capers, olives, tomatoes, super simple. A pasta dish gives me that comfort food. Interesting that it's tagliatelle. It's tagliatelle. I use tagliatelle. Yeah. Well, also because most of the time I'm trying to go gluten-free, so I'm eating my quinoa and I'm eating my brown rice. But if I really want comfort, I'm like, bring it on.
52:19Okay, well, let's go have some pasta. Thank you so much for coming today. Thank you, Ruthie. I'll see you in Milan. Ciao, Bella. Ciao, Bella.
52:30Ruthie's Table 4 is produced by Atomai Studios for iHeartRadio. It's hosted by Ruthie Rogers. It's produced by Willa Malinsky. our executive producers Azad Rogers and Faye Stewart our production manager is Caitlin Paramore our production coordinator is Bella Cellini this episode had additional contributions by Ceci, Giuseppetti, Sian Winnowan special thanks to everyone at the River Cafe
53:15Let's be real. Life happens. Kids spill. Pets shed. And accidents are inevitable. Find a sofa that can keep up at washablesofas.com. Starting at just$699, our sofas are fully machine washable inside and out. So you can say goodbye to stains and hello to worry-free living. Made with liquid and stain-resistant fabrics. They're kid-proof, pet-friendly, and built for everyday life. Plus, changeable fabric covers let you refresh your sofa whenever you want. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa anytime to fit your space. Whether it's a growing family room or a cozy apartment.
53:57Plus, they're earth-friendly and trusted by over 200 ,000 happy customers. It's time to upgrade to a stress-free, mess-proof sofa. Visit washablesofas.com today and save. That's washablesofas.com. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply. Parking shouldn't slow you down. ParkWiz gives every driver a shortcut. Book ahead, save up to 50 % and skip the hassle of circling the block. Park smarter, park faster. ParkWiz. Download the ParkWiz app today and save every time you park. This is an iHeart Podcast.
From the publisher
Ruthie and J.J Martin, founder of Milanese lifestyle brand La Double J, meet for the first time and immediately discover how much they have in common - most of all a passion and admiration for everything Italian.
If you'd like to send Ruthie a message for the 100th Episode Lister Q&A, send a voice note to: +447983396982
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