Jamie Oliver, Gary Lineker & Seth Doane

0:00We have good news. Ruthie's Table 4 is now a book. Table 4, The River Cafe, Conversations About Food and Life, is a collection of guests, interviews, photographs from over 240 episodes. We have Paul McCartney, Tina Fey, David Beckham, Mel Brooks, Austin Butler, Sarah Jessica Parker, and many, many more telling their stories through the lens of food. Order now, Ruthie's Table 4.com slash book. Ruthie's Table 4, presented by Sky. Food is a fabulous... It's a beautiful magnet. And it can mean so many things, can't it? Like what? Well, it can be food, it can be therapy. You know, if someone dies and you're mourning, you can absolutely create an environment where you're cooking something which can still be full of love, and it can be therapy.

0:54You can cook for romance. You can cook because you need to be electrified and you need to feel alive. Or you might want to cook something that makes you feel sluggish and just curl up and have a cuddle. Do you know what the best thing of all is? Cooking for people. Because to satisfy, whether it's your family or your friends or something, there's nothing better. It's just a lovely thing to do for people.

1:18A few weeks ago, just hours before the opening of Jamie's Italian in Leicester Square, Jamie Oliver came to see me in the River Cafe to talk about our new podcast book Table 4 at the River Cafe. We were joined by friends around the table Gary Lineker footballer presenter and podcaster and Seth Duan foreign correspondents for CBS News who's based in Rome. Together we spoke about restaurants podcasts Italian food cooking for family writing cookbooks and navigating the world around us. We began with Jamie and I flicking through the chapters of the book, most of all his chapter, remembering his early days at the River Cafe when we worked together.

2:02I was looking at the photographs here, and I looked at all these photographs of people, and there's a lot of affection going on. And then I looked at the one of you and me. And I thought, you know, that says a lot, doesn't it? I just literally have you in my arms. I love that picture. It's a beautiful book. So here is it at the end. If you look at this one, I think it's here. There, see? I know, oh, bless. So the two pictures that I thought were so great was one of us in love with each other hugging. And how old were you in that picture, Jay? I came to work for you at 21. 20, see? 20. Look at you.

2:38Yeah, baby. So how many years ago was that? 30 years ago. 30 years ago. So there you go. And then I was looking at the content. Can you believe that? 30 years? Yeah, I can, because we're going to be 40. I know. So you ever came 10 years? We're going to talk about that because it's a long time ago. So what we did with this book is to say, we wrapped it into chapters because with all the people, how do you kind of group it? We thought food is family, and so we have families here, the McCartneys, and we have the Beckhams, and we have food is tradition, food is discovery, and then food is art, so these are the artists, food is politics, and food is food, which are the chefs.

3:15Your guests are amazing. Look at this. If I was going to put you in a chapter, I don't know where I'd put you. Because I thought you are family, right? You are tradition, because as you said, we've been together for a while. You definitely are discovery. You definitely are art. I would say you are a work of art. And then political, yes, food is politics, because you are. And then food is food. So there you go. You could have been in every single chapter, right? Well, thank you. And so this was the food chapter that we put you in in the end. Thank you. Next to Martha. Next to Martha. And I was looking at what this chapter, and I was looking at what we talked about, thinking what we talked about, and I was thinking what we should really do, is what I'd like to do, is talk about what you're doing now, you know, what is your, you know, the project you're working on now that's so exciting.

4:01Well, today, I'm opening a restaurant. Today? Yeah, literally, last night was my first soft launch. So can you imagine that Jamie's actually here? Yeah, but that's because you're my Rufy Rogers. I know, but you can't say no. No, of course I can't. You can't say no. Tell us about the restaurant. Well, as you know, about 20 years ago, I started James Italian and it was supposed to be a really beautiful mid-market offer into fresh pasta and all the things that we love. It was incredibly successful for eight years. It was like a dream come true. And then for two years, it fell apart and I lost them all.

4:39And it was so I had the best of my life, literally. And then I had the worst. so in a really nice philosophical positive way I I feel like a fully rounded restaurateur now because I've had it and I've lost it but really I also think that in life the concept of second chances and comebacks and the attitude in a world that can be quite tricky and dark that's at times in the world we live in or personally I think dusting yourself down and going again and you would call it being relentless is important. So this is my second chance. I think it's relentless and resilience and empathy. Those, I think, if you can teach somebody, I would say resilience is right up there.

5:26But with the resilience, you have to have a kind of empathy too. Totally. So it's quite a big deal, really. Let's go back to that. What helped you kind of do that? Well, I think when I lost them all, you obviously spend quite a long time doing an autopsy in why. what happened, what went wrong. And without trying to massage my own self or ego, we got most of it right. We got the important bits right, and we got the hard bits right. The culture, the feeling, keeping - The food. Yeah, such good food. Yeah, and keeping the staff, and taking a pot washer, and training them to be senior chefs. But what we got wrong was the business side, really, which is kind of, you know, it was the thing that, people always said I was a businessman, but I really wasn't.

6:10so this time around keeping the locations really small making sure I do all the grown-up stuff properly and then yeah I was I did a team a team briefing yesterday like 70 people and I'm they've had all the kind of training and their tasting and the show and the tale and the role play but then I was trying to get into the feeling and you were there by the way you were there with me but the feeling is a hard one to teach so I was talking about trying to find their words for mojo like you like getting your confidence like you and Rose were always so good having these waiters and waitresses that were so individual and yeah they had to do it the River Cafe way but you didn't want robots you wanted them to be individual so finding that confidence and having that confidence with a customer to sort of scan them and sort of see what mood they're in you know what vibe are they into like are they into they want to get going quick or do they want to kind of have an anti-pastia pasta and share a seconde you know so that's the stage that we're in and of course they all think i'm mad but i bet they don't well i think they think i'm very enthusiastic but but but when because they're so young yeah getting them to tune into like heart and soul and energy and vibe and and feeling is it sounds a bit hippie but we both know that it's a very important it's the secret ingredient isn't it making people who work for you feel that is actually I hate to say it's good for business too because if they're happy they're going to be kind to the customer if they're feel there's a and it's not huggy kissy that one it's also knowing that there's a structure knowing there's a system knowing there's a protocol knowing all that but it's all those things that give them confidence isn't it gives them confidence and then they can relaxed.

7:57I was on the pass once with Rose and my wife Jules was a waitress. That's how you met right? Yeah yeah. I didn't meet here but like we were kind of we were kind of that was the time when we kind of got together and when she's concentrating she always puts her foot up like a pelican. Yeah. It's like in a restaurant really and she goes look look at your girlfriend and Rose was there I mean Jules was there with her foot as a pelican and she was struggling to get the cork out of a bottle of Prosecco. So she gave it to the male customer and said, can you do it? And I went, I'm so sorry. She goes, I love it.

8:34But of course, somehow. We're talking about Emily Mortimer, who said she always likes to say that she was the worst waitress in the restaurant that we ever had. And then she always tells the story that she brought two people, one had lamb, one had fish. And the person who had the fish said, I'd like some lemon. So she took the lemon off the lamb and said, you don't need that. and gave it to the fish person. But those are the characters, those are the people that, as long as it's done with that kindness. Yeah, 100%. I always think that you can teach somebody to be a really good waiter, you know, to clear the plates, to hold the plates, to pour the wine, but it's harder to teach somebody to have kindness, you know, if they don't have it.

9:14And that's what I think we do. Yeah, 100%. Well, whenever I come here, it feels like coming home, and I'm sure it's the same for all your customers. Well, no, you're a big difference in that. You know, I tell you that quite often I'm brought here by a taxi cab driver, and they say to me as we're pulling up, they say, do you know that Jamie Oliver worked here? I go, yeah, that's really interesting. And then one of them said, do you know this is Jamie Oliver's restaurant? And I didn't contradict him because I thought, yeah, actually it is Jamie Oliver's restaurant. So there's a whole history of that.

9:45Bless you for that. So tell me more about the new restaurant. So, well, as you know, it's a pretty rough time out there in the hospitality and it's certainly a mid-market is a mess so I think you'd be quite do you think that's true I think that post COVID post Brexit we lost a lot of our amazing front of house staff that were Portuguese and Spanish and Italian and a proportion of them went home and I think that obviously financially people are a bit struggling at the moment which is mid-market but at the same time when I opened James Italian 20 years ago that was the last recession and we were like just giving that opto you know having optimism and beautiful feelings and delicious food when it's bad it's quite a good time so unless I'm wrong last time I did it it worked and it's interesting because the the industry actually are so supportive they really want me to sort of get back in market and get that energy going again but I think you'd be really proud of me like I am proud of you.

10:46I am proud of you. Right now. Yeah, bless. I'm proud of you. But really nice ingredients, like the pasta's being made like twice a day, every day. It's really simple food. We're doing a carbonara, but it's the classic Roman way. Did you go to Italy? Have you been to Italy lately? I mean, I try to go a couple of times a year if I'm lucky. And if I'm really lucky, I might be in the mountains. Nice. And, you know, I love it. I mean, I started going to Italy. with you. Yeah, so good. Best trips of my life. Do you remember? What do you remember? Which one do you remember? So let's just tell who's ever listening that this is, when Rose and I started the River Cafe, the very, very first year we had the idea that we would take ourselves, because it really was just ourselves, and a few, you know, one other person, whoever was here, Ozzy, who was doing the wine, and we would go to the source.

11:37We would go to the people who make the olive oil, produce the olive oil, and the wine, and stay with them and eat with them. Yeah. And that really is a tradition that we've done when we were five people working here. It's right now when we're 130 people working here. Well, you were the only people doing that. And what's beautiful now is if you look at the family tree of the River Cafe, so many of your chefs that have gone off to do amazing things replicate what you did. Or do their own thing. And no one did it before you. But, I mean, the idea of your boss taking you on what looks like a holiday for like three, four days to eat professionally three or four times a day, which is actually, no one feels sorry for you, but it's quite hard work.

12:17It's hard work. But I think it's interesting because you can train somebody, but until they've been there and seen them and been in that area or up a mountain or seen the nonnas making this or seen the charcuterie that came from that village, that's what changes them. And it's that change, I think, that gives you your spark and your mojo. When I think about your children or my children, how exposed they are. It's about exposure. It's an exposure to a museum, exposure to music, exposure to social values. And in a way, taking people to Italy who may really be good cooks, but they haven't been exposed to what it's like to sit down at an Italian table and eat something that was cooked in a kitchen by, as you say, one of the members of the family, or to be exposed to, you know, I was exposed to suddenly how olive oil is made.

13:15And when they come back from the trip and they pour olive oil over a piece of lamb or turbot or a piece of bread, they do it in a different way because they've seen the olives come from the tree. They've seen people press the olives. They've seen that. Yeah, but that was such a gift, though. I mean, it was sensible to help the River Cafe amplify what you and Rose were trying to do. but also for every cook that went on those buses around the mountains of Tuscany. It changed us forever. And we had such fun. Do you remember? I mean, I remember so many things. But I remember... They're a bit wild.

13:55Now we're much more strict. Yeah, I'm sure. I mean, we had a lot of fun. But, you know, like, just... I remember you guys were the first people to ever bring Caval O 'Nero to Britain. And then I remember Sainsbury's started to stock it. and they're like, what is this? And, you know, that sauce that you make, that you'd have... We brought back the seeds and we gave them to a farmer down in Somerset. What are you saying? Well, I could have sworn it was some Italian growing off the M25 that had all your seeds. And then we put them in, yeah. Right, I think down, yeah, something new. But, you know, and then, as you say, you know, Sainsbury's, if we hadn't brought it, somebody else would have because that is also something, that connection.

14:36That's why Brexit was such a tragedy, I think, because the connection between Europe and us got smaller and smaller. Now that a truck could leave the Milan market and be here the next day, that mozzarella could come from a small place. Well, everything is more complicated now. Are you finding that? Yeah, 100%. How are you doing with supplying, getting the supplies? Everything's just harder. Everything's just harder, and everything's just more painful, and whether that's people or whether that's our kids being able to travel around Europe, like, infinitely to learn and be inspired, or whether it's produce, trying to get a shipment of something special in.

15:12So yeah, I mean, you've just got to crack on there, haven't you? I mean, it's sort of survival of the fittest, so you just keep going. But look, it's... We're so lucky we have the best job in the world. Yeah. I think we do. No, I... You know, I go into the kitchen and you see what we're cooking and we, you know, walk through the restaurant and see a table that might be having a hard time and they seem happier. or you see a waiter who broke up with her boyfriend the day before but somehow is being consoled by the other people. And I just think to be surrounded by people who are really trying to...

15:41Feeding people is a privilege, isn't it? How are the kids? How are the kids? My kids, they're amazing, actually. One's 23, she's a teacher. The 22-year-old's a nurse. And then the other three are still in school. And they're all different and wonderful and wild. And they keep me on my toes. And Jules is an amazing mum. So I've been very blessed. and they yeah it's nice seeing the kids having young ladies as my daughters is quite unbelievable well you kind of get there's a bit of a mic drop moment at 13 isn't it they're sort of not interested in you for about five years maybe six possibly seven but they love me again now so now we're like best friends and actually I'm seeing Poppy tonight she's coming with her friends to the restaurant this is a big opening night so excited yeah yeah yeah in Leicester square and it's an interesting place the building's beautiful the size is perfect the kitchen's open and the name of the restaurant it's James Italian James yeah I mean I wanted to have a creative name but we just kept like I just kept going back to it's Jamie's so it's all right but in a way it's not we just want to over deliver at simple food and and we're not trying to change your philosophies of food or gastronomy like but I know I know because I enjoy it that some of those dishes are just undeniable, right?

17:06I'm going to tell you. Yeah, I mean, we've got a soft serve machine. Did you? Which is like from my childhood. But normally they put like powdered milk stuff in there. So we make proper anglés with like lovely eggs and cream and milk and vanilla. Do you use less eggs when you have soft serve? Yeah, much less. Yeah, yeah. And it comes out so silky. And then last night I just had one with a little espresso over the top. And it's just like simple. It just works, man. And they were serving tiramisu at the table from a big dish, so it kind of feels right. It's going to be beautiful. It's going to be great.

17:36We're going to be there. Yeah.

17:43Tell me about the book. Barbecue. I love cooking over fire. I adore it, actually. And I think British people, if I'm being fair and generalising, are terrible at barbecuing. Oh, okay. And yeah, I think that's just the truth. Do you think it's the weather? No, I think it's a really interesting thing. I'm generalising, but largely we think barbecuing is direct grilling, so without the lid. I think a lot of people buy barbecues and go, what's the lid for? And when you look at the, because I'm a bit weird, when you look at the statistics around fire brigade call-outs and why houses burnt down from barbecues in summer in Britain, the amount that started with aerosol alcohol or perfume like you know like sister what's going on I bet you back come on I bet you barbecue do you barbecue is there a chair for Gary yeah do you barbecue that's something that's my two favorite people talking about barbecue everything I think it's a very male thing yeah you know he's a really good cook yeah I've heard he's got a reputation on the grapevine.

18:56I don't record on football or, you know, kickballs into net. And he comes in the cocks. Kickballs into net? You went all kind of northern. Kickballs into net? Is that what you call it? What's northern about that? It's because you went into net. I didn't use a plural. Into net. Into net. That's how they say it in the north, in Yorkshire and Leeds and all that. Oh, OK, there you go. I like that. OK, I'll keep going. But you know, there's a... I do think it's in the... I'm a big fan of James, by the way. Can I lose a lot of York? When I started cooking, I'd never cooked in my life until ten years ago.

19:31I'm ancient now, obviously. But I never cooked in my life, and I got single again, and I was at home, and I was ordering takeaways, and I was going to restaurants even on my own, and I thought, come on, Gary, learn to cook, get a grip. It's now the biggest passion. Yeah, amazing. I just love it, and particularly in the early days, I genuinely mean this, I'm not just saying it, But I got your cookbooks and they were so easy to follow and you were an inspiration. So thank you. Thank you. And I still cook lots of your recipes today. Particularly the roast, which is my boy's favourite. Sunday lunch, pork belly.

20:11Yeah. Brilliant. Beautiful. Well, I'm touched. I'm so touched. But also, you really have got a reputation of being a good cook. I think cooking is an interesting one. And actually, to sort of take it back to you, Ruthie, and Rose, like not in a political way but I think because a lot of cooking and chefing is masculine and alpha what I learned from Rose and Ruthie was like you have to tune you have to got a tune into the feminine

20:42I'm Seth Doan from CBS yeah yeah Seth Doan from CBS Sunday morning You're doing a story on Ruthie and the River Cafe and the new book. Let's go back to men cooking because I do think you taught all women, you've taught everybody. But with your first book, I really think that, and I'm not the first person to say that Jamie made cooking gender freak. And also encouraged his boys to cook and made it kind of sexy and fun. I think that was a really radical thing. I think I was lucky. I was lucky to have come through you guys at the River Cafe. And I was, there's a lot of luck, but I think in Britain at that, if you follow back what made me famous so quickly, it was largely female journalists.

21:28And there was a moment in time where men and women were going to work. They were putting in a 10, 12 hour shift, getting home tired. And men around Britain would go, what's for dinner, love? Yeah. All of them. And the young women of Britain, and I'm going back 30 years, like this is the beginning of the Naked Chef. were like well yeah and obviously and a lot of the journalists were saying if this young kid on TV can do it well why can't everyone do it so really the naked the naked chef's job was to get men in the kitchen and and and it pretty much worked it took me a long time yeah 20 years in my life it's that I didn't cook when I was young yeah and I know I've got four boys they're not boys anymore.

22:11They're men. Three of them in their 30s now. One to 28. But they all cook now. And also it keeps them coming back. You know, I let them cook and they come every Sunday. And it keeps, food is fabulous. It's a beautiful magnet. And it can mean so many things, can't it? Like what? Food can be therapy. If someone dies and you're mourning, you can absolutely create an environment where you're cooking something which can still be full of love and it can be therapy. You can cook for romance, you can cook because you need to be electrified and you need to feel alive and you feel a little bit sluggish.

22:53Or you might want to cook something that makes you feel sluggish and just curl up and have a cuddle. Do you know what the best thing of all is? It's joyous for cooking for people. Because to satisfy, whether it's your family or your friends or something, there's nothing better. It's just a lovely thing to do for people. I think some of my happiest moments are in my kitchen with a nice, some good tunes on, maybe a little glass of something. And I'm just in bliss doing something. How often does that still happen? Every weekend. Where you can just totally detach from the restaurant empire. I've tried to be religious about weekends.

23:34since I thought I could carry on working too much but when my kids got to three I realized you you have to got to be you know you got to sort yourself out so I've been very religious about I only work at weekends if there's trouble and there's not too much trouble so I'm very lucky I also kind of respect people who don't cook you have to sort of make time for the woman who says you know I'd rather do homework with my kid water out and you know I'd rather do something with them other than cook or you know people who just say it doesn't it's not my thing the pressure sometimes to be the family around the table and somehow you're a failure if you don't do it I we attain that we want that but I also feel that the pressure is a bit hard if you were never taught you can see it in people's fear you know if you were in the UK we're like four generations into kids not learning to cook from their parents for school.

24:31So then, and anything online or on shows, we can't replace what a nonna, a mama or an auntie or someone in the street. And I think like, so the fear they have is like, it's a terrible science exam. And it's like, no, no, it's not supposed to, it's just a sandwich. It's like, so I think that's why, I mean, I think we're both so passionate about like primary schools and getting kids involved in seeing growing and cooking and having that kind of handheld dexterity, just using a peeler or a knife. Also, in the time it takes to put a bag of pasta in boiling water and then put some cheese and butter on it or a little bit of tomato on it, it's faster than getting a ready-made meal that you can actually make it yourself and have fun.

25:16Being able to teach someone something, I do think it's a responsibility of the government to make food available. You've done amazing work by the way. And he has. Jamie, we should really talk about what you've done for education, for kids, for hunger. Yeah, it goes on. I mean, we've actually just started in the United States, actually. Shouldn't be, but it's just that. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a shame that all the science and all the data and everything proves that teaching children about food, where it comes from, how it affects their body, they get better results, better educational attainment, better health outcomes.

25:53Currently when kids go to elementary school, they're getting more unhealthy in that time, not healthier. So, you know, the amount of obese, like 11 year olds has just gone up. So it's such a shame. It's such a waste. So obviously one of the best ways to teach geography or history or science or biology or the, you know, is through food and through seeing stuff grow. So it feels still like it's an add-on and it's cute and it's a luxury. And I just think, I don't know when they're going to get it, when they realise it's a necessity, not a luxury. It's also an investment. They'll get it when they think it's a vote winner.

26:32Yeah. That's when they get it. It's also... And it should be. Yeah, it should be. But I also know that the Head Start programme in America, which gave kids breakfast at school, that what the children who were fed in those years did not need benefits later on you know that they so that investment in early education pays if you want to just look at it from finance you know it's it's an investment that really pays off trying to trying to make this trying to make like proper change is tough and like we just got free school lunches um for primary school kids across the country just because there's quite a large proportion of free school lunch kids at poverty, etc.

27:17And so we have to make documentaries, tell stories. You know, luckily there's good people like Mark Carnot that used to run the Bank of England. He helped me put a team together to prove that giving free school lunches not only was money well spent, but it would actually make the country money over a 10 year period. so you know it's having a feeling about something's one thing but in this day and age of government you have to prove it what about this man and his and what he's done for podcasts for people listening you know you've given us so much gary really you know i can only apologize why no you've given a whole life to listening to people to people talk to educating you know but you don't have one on food i think we should do well we don't no we don't why not we don't but we've looked at food for a long time so we should tell them tell the american audience what you do tell the audience i've got tell them about we've got a kind of podcast business that um thankfully has done quite well you know we've got the biggest podcast in the world and the rest is history we've got a group of podcasts the rest is um including football and entertainment and politics which is also enormous and politics us which is let's say interesting at the moment um with yeah with anthony scaramucci is one of our hosts so we need a food one are you busy well i'm actually free free and available i'll do it with you yeah i think it's interesting the podcast in a day of so much technology like there's something about listening that goes in differently and a bit like reading affects people differently which sadly as a dyslexic i never could take part in that but podcast talk about that for a minute you didn't as a dyslexic well when i was a kid like i didn't do very well at school and words were my enemy and um so and actually i i used to watch you and and rose laying your books out yeah and because design was such a big part of what you're doing design is very helpful to dyslexics because that whole idea of illustrations or step-by-steps or kind of simplifying things.

29:24For a dyslexic that's a, do you know what I mean? It just makes it all easier. So I think it's been, it's something that you have to deal with as a kid. If it's not acknowledged young, it can kind of stain in a bad way lots of people. I did a documentary on it last year. And yeah, I was quite shocked how many well-achieved, robust people would come to me and sob and and and I did an interview which is where it came from I did an interview about a book that I a kid's book that I'd written and it's something they asked me a question and I started crying it's not what we want to do really and it certainly wasn't in the plan and then you go well why that's a bit odd I'm not really like that and and and I think it's just basically seven-year-old Jamie concept of being thick stupid dumb and like not fitting into the normal protocol school so now it's kind of like I'm getting my head around it and I even to the new restaurant I wrote the menu which I never would have done and I just thought well just grow up get around it and I employed someone a lady to come in and teach me how to write for two hours and then I spent seven hours doing it and now it's on the menu funny enough I've written like 30 books I've never written one I did not actually I did on dictaphone in your book where you talk about dictating or you mentioned dictaphone yeah dictating that first cookbook.

30:48I wondered how you, how do you do that? How can you keep track of that? Well, it's quite beautiful really, because everyone goes, oh, your style of writing is very chatty. And I go, well, that's because it was chatty. Come on, it's great. You go to a kid, I use a dictaphone, they're like, what? And I'm like, you know, like a little cassette, you know, and every cassette was a chapter, and they're like, and I'm like, an app. It's like, but no, I think as soon as I earned a bit of money, I employed an editor who just types what I say. But you really have to have very clear thoughts to be able to dictate.