Joanna Calo

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1:00at washablesofas.com. Authors are subject to change, and certain restrictions may apply. Though Joanna Callow and I have very different professions, she's a writer, producer, director, most recently of The Bear, I'm a cook and founder of a restaurant, The River Cafe, we have a lot in common, and most of it involves drama. Hers is creatively working with actors, mine is creatively working with chefs. People always ask me, how does a restaurant work? On the bear, Joanna and her colleagues brilliantly answer these questions. A friend of mine just told me today that Joanna makes the hardest thing funny with lightness and sensitivity, and that she is a great woman.

1:52So, here we are, here in L.A., and I'm in London, which is the first mistake of this moment. I wish you were here. Are you sitting in your office? I am in my office in West LA, but I wish I was there more than anything. I think I might just get on a plane right now. Right now. We could go to the River Cafe. Have you ever eaten at the River Cafe? I haven't. I haven't had the pleasure. You've never been. Okay. Well, we'll do that. We'll go. Maybe you could bring your children. How old are your children? Oh, God. Don't let... Not yet. They're five and two. She's ready. The older one is ready for restaurants, but you don't want the boy anywhere near you.

2:28Oh, I would. The other day I was flying back from Milan and I saw this woman with a baby and I said, oh, I hope I sit next to you. And she said, you're the first person who's ever said that. Why would you want to sit next to a baby? So I think what we could do is start with the recipe, which you've chosen, Sformata di Spinacci. And perhaps you could read the recipe and then we can carry on with our conversation. So now you will see that I am the least Italian person. and sformato di spinaci, serve six, 1.3 kilogram spinach, stalks removed, two eggs, 400 milligrams double cream, nope, milliliters.

3:10It's very British. 100 grams freshly grated, half teaspoon grated nutmeg. Preheat the oven to 375 Fahrenheit. Beat the eggs and cream together for a minute in a large bowl. Add the parmesan, nutmeg, and season. Blanch the spinach for one minute and drain well. Chop roughly and mix the egg and cream mixture. Pour into a medium-sized baking dish and then place in the preheated oven for 30 minutes until the top is crisp and the spinach is still slightly creamy. So tell me about growing up in your household with food. Tell me what life was like in your family, food-wise. Well, that's honestly why I chose this recipe.

3:48I had an interesting childhood, which is that my parents bought a house in Northern California that we shared with their best friends. So we had a little mini commune. They shared a house. That's interesting. I think we lived upstairs and they lived downstairs. It was a duplex in Alameda. And it was really wonderful. It made me one of six instead of one of three. And it means I had four parents. And it also meant that my parents and my parents' best friends, they were all working. So all you needed is one parent to watch all the children. But I think that's sort of a theme in my life is that both my parents worked.

4:27My dad was a journalist. My mom was a nurse who became a librarian. It's like when she was in nursing school, I think there was less cooking. Then when she was working full time as a nurse, she still was getting dinner on the table, but it was very regulated. It was sort of like there are the four dinners that you always make and then you kind of cycle through that. And there's something so charming about that. So like these these meals are completely ingrained in in our lives. And it was like boiled zucchini with melted cheese on it. That was one of the things we ate. Hamburger patties with Campbell's mushroom soup poured over it.

5:02That's like, I think, very Midwestern, you know. And then she is Spanish. She comes from Mexican parents. And so she would also make enchiladas that were amazing. And my dad is Italian. And on the weekend when he was home, he would make his sauce that cooked all day. And so, you know, I definitely got to have that. And the family that we lived with, they were Hispanic also and sort of had a closer connection to that Hispanic culture. And so we would make tamales at Christmas and some of that. And so this baked spinach made me think about how we used to get the frozen spinach. It was like the Stouffer's frozen spinach.

5:41And it was exactly, not exactly this, not as good, but the same idea. And you would just put it in the oven. And that was how they gave us vegetables some nights. And my dad called it princess food because it was like a spinach souffle. But it was such a good memory when I was looking through the book. I was thinking about that and about how, you know, that is so the act of a parent that is trying to do their best, loves their children, but also has to put a frozen meal in the oven because they're working, because they're busy. And some of those, you know, influences came from my other family as well.

6:16And it brought me a lot of joy to see this recipe. I'm interested still in the commune. Did you have one kitchen for the two families or did you each have your separate kitchens? Each had separate kitchens. And I think that there were sort of different rules in each kitchen. So you could always have fun. What were they? What was the difference? If it's not your mother, you're always going to get away with a little more. Right. So it's like, you know, their kids would come to us and we would go up there. You know, we would swap around and try to take advantage of the system. Is this all your childhood?

6:43No, not my entire childhood. Maybe when I was five or six, we moved to another house. Oh, I see. In Oakland. And then when I was eight, we moved to New Jersey. And that was a sort of another chunk of life. What was that like, New Jersey from California? I loved it. I absolutely loved it. It felt like I was in a movie with fall and spring and snow days. And I definitely romanticize all of it. Did you eat differently? Yes. I had all the foods that I was supposed to have. I ate pizza constantly, bagels constantly. Oh, yeah. Somebody said to me that there was a big deal about you eating in a bagel place.

7:22Is that right? Yes. My senior year of high school. I don't know. Sometimes I do research for this. What was it called? Bagel Chateau. Bagel Chateau. Okay. So this is Willem and I don't know what Bagel Chateau is. It's just the place in my little town. I grew up in a small town called Maplewood, but every single day for my senior year of high school, I ate at the Bagel Chateau. Good for you. Oh my God. Every day. Same bagel or different bagels? You see the detail we get into on this, you know, we ask the questions that really bring back the memories. Oh my God. Okay. So here, here were the things I would get.

8:00I love a sesame bagel. Love. So I mainly get sesame bagel toasted with tuna. And then they always put pickles and chips on the side and it was just a really good dill pickle. And the chips, I mean, And they were probably just from a crappy bag, but they were spectacular, like little ruffled chips. And I dream about those chips still. And then I would also sometimes get sesame toasted with cream cheese and tomato. I guess it's the Garden State. They were getting good produce. You know, the tomatoes were great. They were good. And the lettuce was great. You could get like, my friends would get something called a nothing sandwich, which they stupidly invented.

8:37It was like a vegetarian sandwich. Just no one knew to call it that, basically. But it was just bagel, mustard, tomato, lettuce. And then, you know, that was it. It's like a BLT without the bacon. Without the bacon. But it was like crisp and tasty and fresh. And I think some of those things that we didn't entirely know we were craving yet. Do you think it's still there? It's still there. It's still there. So your parents still live in New Jersey? No, my parents actually left. When I graduated high school, they moved back to Oakland. My mother was, I think, tired of the pizza and the bagels. She wanted to go back to the Bay Area.

9:13So food was important growing up. I mean, even the way you describe the chips, it sounds like it's important. Oh, food was so important. I just loved it. I mean, I think coming from an Italian family, a Mexican family, that's part of the culture. But when we were living in New Jersey, we were very close to where my dad grew up. He's from Queens. And so we would spend time with our Italian family. And so that's all food. It's just about food. Did your grandparents, were they involved? They died when I was younger. But yes. My Italian grandma, the favorite thing that she made for me was the egg creams, which is just very like New York.

9:47We would go to her house and she would make egg creams for us and, you know, we would eat pasta. The whole cartoon. And what about Mexican food? You know, my grandpa would cook for us and he would make chorizo and eggs. But they were, you know, you also just sort of go and you get Wendy's. Did you go back to Mexico or Italy? I have only been to Mexico City, and then I've been to Italy, but there's a pilgrimage coming, I think, for sure. You grew up in this house surrounded by food, and when you left the comfort of this, and also a community, the idea that you had a house with other people. Actually, we always go to Italy in the summer, and the house is full of families, different families, and we're all together, and we meet up for breakfast, or we meet up for lunch, or swim, we do all this.

10:33And then everybody's so happy. This is what we love about the summer. And then we all go back to our own houses and you think, hmm, you know, maybe this is another way of actually living, which we reject, you know, from September to June. But then we embrace in the summer. You went to college or did you start working? I went to UC Santa Barbara and I was planning to study marine biology. And then when I got there, there was also a film major. and I don't know, I don't know why I hadn't thought about it because I was obsessed with movies always and I liked to sit very close to the television so that I could try to go inside and I didn't think about it as a job as a kid.

11:12I just thought about it as something I loved more than anything. And then I realized that my fantasy of being a marine biologist, of being on a boat and riding dolphins was really completely a fantasy and many years in the future whereas I could study film and be lost in film immediately. Do you remember what you ate in college? Oh my gosh. Well, my favorite food story from college is that for whatever reason, I guess I didn't have cottage cheese as a child or that just wasn't like common. And then in the dining hall, you could just get cottage cheese whenever you wanted. And so I had cottage cheese for every meal.

11:53And then eventually I was like, what am I doing? And I didn't eat it for probably like 10 years after that because I would have it with my eggs. I would have it with lunch. I was just so obsessed with it. Like an insane person. And I also, I worked at the dining hall, which was a very strange and interesting experience where I worked in the kitchen. I have such a strong memory of how much fun we had back there in our hairnets, but also how terrible the rubber mats would smell at night, you know, and you would have to hose them down. And I was never a waitress because my brain doesn't work that way.

12:24I can't handle that responsibility. But I think waiters have a really hard job. Don't you? I do too. I couldn't be a waiter. But then I also, in high school, I worked in an ice cream store, this wonderful ice cream store. And I have such a, I have another really strong memory of I would hold the bowl and the person, I would look at the person and they would tell me their order. And by the time I turned around to the ice cream machine behind me, I had forgotten. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I just, I don't, I wasn't cut out for that life. Did you know the River Cafe has a shop? It's full of our favorite foods and designs.

13:01We have cookbooks, linen napkins, kitchenware, tote bags with our signatures, glasses from Venice, chocolates from Turin. You can find us right next door to the River Cafe in London or online at shoptherivercafe.co.uk.

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14:08If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping or restocking fees. Every penny back. Upgrade now at washablesofas.com. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply. Parking shouldn't slow you down. ParkWiz gives every driver a shortcut. Book ahead, save up to 50 % and skip the hassle of circling the block. Park smarter, park faster. ParkWiz. Download the ParkWiz app today and save every time you park. Talking about food, talking about being a waiter, talking about the ice cream, talking about the chips leads us into this idea that you made with Chris about food, about restaurants, about the drama of a restaurant and the drama of people who work in them.

14:53The bear. It is interesting how it does feel like all these things were leading up to he and I meeting in order to make the show. But I'll say that one of the huge things that happened to me that has to do with food was that when I moved to L.A. in order to pursue a career in television in some form, I started listening to the radio when I would drive because I moved to L.A. in 1999. Gosh, is that true? That's true. And there was KCRW, there was Morning Becomes Eclectic, and there was Jonathan Gold. And listening to him talk about food in the city and how food created a city was just life-changing for me.

15:32It just became a real passion for me. The idea of the way that a restaurant defines a city has completely stayed with me. His thing about eating all the way down Pico and just being invested in your town and your city really inspired me. And I think similarly, I think Jonathan Gold led me to read Ruth Reichel and I'm just, I just adored her books. You know, I just love them. I love food in books. I just, I love it. The idea of describing something beautifully and being able to share that idea. My sister and I both have like the idea of food is sometimes even better than actual food, you know? And I just loved Ruth Reichel's writing, but also her passion.

16:16Have you met Ruth? I haven't. Oh, we'll do that. We'll do something. She's a great woman. And she's, you know, as you say, beautiful writer. And so tell me about how did you meet Chris? Yes, Chris Storer is the person who created the bear. And it was really came out of his experiences in your world. His sister Coco was a chef, but I think he also had his own love of not just all food, but I think particularly he had a point of view on the world of fine dining. what was positive about it, what was negative, but also that it was just amazing that it was this secret world. And he had written a movie that was sort of the bear and then decided to turn it into a TV show.

17:00And I had been writing for many years and we met in the most boring way, which is literally my manager was like, do you want to meet this guy? And I was like, oh, I guess. And we Zoomed during the pandemic and I had read some of his scripts. I just thought not only did I love the way he wrote, but I mainly was like, I love this world for all the reasons that we're talking about. And it was really exciting to me. We didn't know each other. We'd never met. We just met on a computer. And then we got on the phone and talked because I wanted to make sure I connected with him personally. And before we sort of launched into this whole thing, some kind of working relationship.

17:37And it just felt like I had known him my whole life. I think it has to feel that way. I've felt, I mean, I've experienced different kinds of partnerships. And I think you either have this like partner chemistry or you don't. And I think I just had this instinct that we had something in common. How did you work together? How did you work? How did you write together? You know, it's changed. In the beginning, we were just sort of trying to see if we could get FX to let us make the pilot. So that meant that I just gave him feedback. And I was like, what if we tried this or this is great or let's move this up?

18:09Or, you know, I think not too surprisingly, he had created the character of Sydney and she was very much based on Coco. But when I first read the scripts, she didn't appear until episode three. And I said, I really like that girl character. Can we move her up? Hi. Hello. Hi. I'm Sydney. I called about the supposition. And the fact that he was like, yeah, let's do it, I think was sort of the beginning of just us being able to push each other and change things. But always with keeping what's special about his voice. What's UPS? That's in Chicago? United Parcel Service. Shit. That's the UPS. Yeah.

18:48What'd you do for them? Sometimes I'm just helping him with his scripts. Sometimes we're writing together. Sometimes I'll outline and then he'll write. Sometimes we'll share. sometimes he'll write scenes, I'll write scenes. Sometimes I'll just write a script by myself. That's the thing. It's completely fluid and there is no one way, which makes it really thrilling. Okay, so you know the drill. You're going to make family. It's meat plus three and we eat around two. Yeah, I heard. Dope. Cool. There are so many parallels between writing and cooking and teaching a chef to make a sauce or working with an actor to create a scene.

19:23And I think that restaurants are quite dramatic places. There's a drama between the chef and the other chefs. There's a drama between the chefs and the waiters and the waiters and the customers and the customers and each other. You know, you see people crying in restaurants. We've seen it in your series. We've seen the intimacy between people who are doing repetitive work. You emote. It's very emotional and it's very personal. Do you think? Oh, I couldn't agree more. I don't think it had occurred to me how many similarities there are to my business and to being a chef, but they're so similar. And I think at the core of that is just passionate people, feeling people, and also just the humanity, right?

20:07It's like, that's what I love about the bear, you know, especially season one is like they're all jammed into this tiny space. And so you have really different kinds of people. Some are leaders, some are followers, some are aggressive, some are soft, some are doing the repetitive stuff and that's where they feel best. Some want to create, you know, and they're all within two interests of each other. I mean, that's insane. Have a conversation for a second. Whoa, what is this? This is Sydney. I'm staging today. You're what today? Sydney, she's helping us out today. Cousin, you ordering different mayonnaise, bro?

20:39You're ordering these bananas? No, all you chef. Yeah, all you chef. This bib, he was using them to make a giant nutball. It was a play on a panettone. It would have been beautiful if you'd let me finish the play. Fine, cousin! Richie Jaramovich. Pleasure to meet you, sweetheart. Don't say sweetheart, you weirdo. Sorry, Carm, you're so woke. I mean, nothing by it. Sydney, St. Sweetheart's just part of our Italian heritage. That's beautiful. Thank you. Okay, listen, I'm trying to talk to you, okay? Don't be rude and start doing a million things like a smartass. I don't have time for this right now.

21:06I don't have time for this right now. We have, in the River Cafe, an open kitchen. There's no wall between the person who's eating and ourselves. And when we first opened, a friend of mine who was a theater director came and I said, doesn't it look like theater? And he said, no, actually it looks like ballet because everybody is moving. Nobody can shout. We all go next to each other. We, you know, we move around the kitchen and speak very softly. but I think that it was also interesting for me to see in your kitchens a kind of way of growing forward you know that how we how we move this profession of being a chef into being like a lawyer like a journalist and that's kind of what you want to achieve you want that energy and that drama but you also want it to be fair and you want it to be hope rather than fear Yeah, I mean, yes, of course we do.

21:57And also, I am really interested in this idea that I think we're always circling on the show, which is where do the hard edges fit in our lives? Do we need that? Do we need anger? Do we need release? Are we all trying a little too hard to push away the part of us that's saying that there's a darkness too? How does the darkness benefit us? You know, does it? You know, I just, I think, I don't know, I'm interested in that for sure. Tell me about one of the episodes that you directed that you'd like to talk about. Oh, my gosh. I mean, I'll talk about in season two, I directed the episode where Sydney is going out and eating everywhere.

22:37Yeah. Because that seems the most relevant. But I will say it was so hard. I mean, it was so challenging. We shot in so many locations all over the city, interrupting these restaurants that were just trying to do business, but they opened their doors to us, you know. It was such a special look into how those kitchens work because it was kind of like half documentary, half, you know, fiction. And so that was such a challenge to try to really tell honest stories about the people that worked there and to use real chefs. But also they have to act and they have to say lines. And I had to figure out how to direct non-actors.

23:17And then you had Ayo just eating every single food, every single thing. and I was so proud of her. I was so proud because it's hard. It's hard to just eat and like, you know that moment when you're eating and then it's like you take one too many bites and it's no longer food. It's just like matter in your mouth. I'm always delighted by that experience and I pushed beyond that and really put a beautiful performance on the screen. We wanted to talk about the pasta, but why don't you ask? I love that episode because there are two scenes in it that stand out to me one is the beautiful way you show the montage of all the pastas on the plate which is so beautiful it really crosses like you say in the line of art and documentary and fiction in that episode but I also love where Kami and Sid are in the kitchen testing this pasta recipe together over his kitchen table and I like the idea of when there are scenes like that does it is it the food that influences the scene or is it the other way around what food would involve both of them and that's such a good question.

24:20I love that scene too because I think, are you talking about the one where they taste it and it's bad? Yes. Yeah, yeah.

24:32Oh. Oh my god. Chef, that's way too much acid. Oh my god. Holy sh**. Did I f**k up your recipe or? No, I must have just given you the wrong count. It's fine. Wait, do you need roll-aid or something? did I give you heartburn? Because I, that's... No, no, no, no, no, no. It's, I'm sorry. In sign. Yes, I loved it. I was like, oh, it's so funny to be like... Yeah. Sometimes it's bad, right? Like, I realized we hadn't seen that. You know what I mean? We hadn't seen a mistake. And that's obviously such a character moment too. But I just liked the idea that we often see in movies when they take the bite and it's delicious.