Special Episode: The Cook and the Book

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1:41There are all sorts of very good reasons to listen to Ruthie's Table 4. But I suspect that for many of us, it is simply the love of Ruthie Rogers. I'm Ashley Baker, a journalist as well as one of Ruthie's many friends, and I am here to turn the table, so to speak, on our host. Her new book is out next week, and it's called Table Four at the River Cafe, Conversations About Food and Life. It is full of so much wisdom about love, food, the pursuit of happiness. But today we're about to figure out what is in that special sauce that makes Ruthie's world so completely irresistible, not to mention delicious.

2:16We will not be sitting at Table Four today. We are going to be sitting at the one where Ruthie and her friends and family so often gather. It's here at Ruthie's beautiful home in London. Ruthie, one of the things that I love so much about this book is that it feels really different for you. Like, you have a restless creative energy. You've done so many incredible things over the course of your career, and now you're giving us something to curl up with in bed at night. Were you nervous about doing a book like this? I mean, or did it seem very intuitive for you? It was challenging. It was challenging to do a book without a recipe.

2:47It was just a very different book. But I loved every minute. I really loved doing this book. Talking about recipes, I never thought of them as poetry, and then I heard Michael Caine read his On the River Cafes podcast. I mean, what inspired this idea to bring recipes and turn them into this means of communication? Well, the real story is that about 20 years ago, Richard and I thought we have this big space. We have a house. We have friends. and what if we did for a kind of charitable event, we would ask actors or writers and musicians to do whatever they wanted to do in this space and we could seat about 100 people and they would come in and then we would ask the person who was performing, they could give the money, the proceeds, half to their charity and half to one that Richard and I believed in.

3:40and one night Ian McKellen did his and he had a piano and he sang songs and he read Shakespeare and he did a sonnet and he told anecdotes and at the very very end that's something I didn't know he was going to do he read a recipe from one of our books for ribollita a Tuscan soup a bread soup and it was just he stood on these stairs and he read the recipe and it was sort of spellbinding To hear a recipe, you know, peel, take four cloves of garlic and gently smash them and, you know, fry the oil. It was beautiful to listen to. And so I think when we thought of doing these podcasts, that people might want to just tune in and hear Ray Fiennes or Jake Gyllenhaal or Victoria Beckham, David Beckham, to read a recipe.

4:31And then our mutual friend, Graydon Carter, said, I think we need something a bit more. And why don't you segue from the recipe into a story? So tell me about the first few episodes and how you tempted these incredible people to come talk about food with you. Why, why? It was the pandemic. There were people were alone in their houses. People were, you know, not flying off to do something in another country. And I think there were people who cared about the River Cafe. They may have also cared about me because it was a time that was quite difficult because my husband had had an accident. I always like to think that if I'd asked David Beckham to talk about football or Michael Caine about making movies or Wes Anderson about directing a movie, they might have said, I've done that so many times.

5:21But if I asked them to say, what we're going to do is talk about food. Did your mother cook? Did your father cook? Did you cook as a child? There's so many questions concerning about food in people's lives. And so we did call Michael, and he said yes. And then I reached out to Wes, that they were the three, and he said yes. And then we asked, I think the third one was, I think it was Jake Gyllenhaal, actually, three men that I knew. And each of them really just did read a recipe. We did a meeting with the iHeart people in New York, and they listened to Wes read a recipe for a roast pigeon. And they listened to Jake read a recipe for tomato sauce.

6:12And they listened to Michael Caine do a, I think it's a recipe with potatoes and pancetta, I think. And so I think just hearing those three voices, they said, let's do it. And that's really how it started. I'm going to read you an introduction that I wrote for you, because you always write these lovely introductions for everyone else. But I hope that this gets at sort of the sense of why I think Ruthie's Table 4 resonates with so many people. This is my answer for Ruthie. Sometimes in life, if you're very lucky, you end up with a friend like Ruthie Rogers, the one who makes you laugh and makes you sing, who always asks about your parents and loves your children almost as much as you do.

6:46For many people around the world, Ruthie Rogers is best known for the River Cafe. And now, all these years into her irresistible podcast, Ruthie's Table 4. But for those of us lucky enough to really know her, she's a shining example of how to live and how to love, which is why I suspect Ruthie's Table 4 has become such a sensation. We can all feel it through the airways, and now we are here to celebrate it because Ruthie has collected all of those best moments into this irresistible book. Congrats, Ruthie. Oh, well now I know how people feel when they have an introduction read to them. I don't usually say this person won three Oscars or found the cure to a disease or kick the ball through a net in the middle of a, you know, the World Cup game.

7:25But it's really more about what they mean to me and why they're here and what I think we can do together. I do have a connection with most of the people who have been on the podcast, but there are some people I've met literally for the first time as they walked in to do the podcast. And so I think it is establishing a trust and establishing a connection and knowing that they're safe, which we're going to talk about. food, really. But that goes into politics. It goes into relationships. It goes into history. And as you say, it's through the lens of food you get the story. On that note, I mean, for a podcast, again, that's ostensibly about food, we get into so many other topics.

8:08And I'm going to take you through some of my favorite parts of the book that are the most surprising things, I think, that we have discovered. Is that okay? Yeah. I'm going to start with Elton John, because he rarely does interviews. I mean, this is an incredibly intimate moment that you have with him. And you have Elton and his husband, David Furnish, who are friends of yours, right? Yes, they are. How did you guys meet? We met, actually, when John Kerry was going to be the Democratic candidate. And we met, I was shopping, they were there. And I guess we, you know, recognized each other, talked, and we started talking as everybody was right then and there thinking this is a crucial, crucial election.

8:46And I told them that I was going to do a benefit for John Kerry in our house. And maybe Elton would like to come and play. And they both leapt at the idea. And that began the conversation of how we could create something together. David is Canadian. They're both incredibly socially active in terms of what they've done for AIDS. And so it was it was out of that through a really close friendship. I enjoyed him. I mean, I didn't realize this really shocked me. Elton says, uh, about the time that they met, he says, I was in AA. So I hadn't really met anybody except AA people for three years. I mean, did you know I, his struggles with alcoholism had been publicized, but did, I mean, this was really surprising to me.

9:31Yeah, no, I, I didn't know that at all. And I think they were sitting there in his house, we went there. I think we went for a walk first, we were in the garden. I think, I do think people are, even people who have given a lot of interviews are vulnerable. You know, I opened up about my struggles, they opened up about theirs, and I think it is a very meaningful interview. At the end of it, a woman who was there listening actually said, you know, I've sat through so many of these interviews over the last 20 years with Elton. But I hadn't heard these stories because would a journalist ask, did you show peas with your grandmother?

10:11Maybe not. I mean, it was so moving how he talked about growing up in a council flat in the aftermath of World War II. And a recurring theme in many of your conversations is this idea of cooking as being a bright spot in very dark times. Did you notice that when you were speaking? Yeah, I did. I think with older people like Michael Caine, who actually went through the war and rationing. And when you ask the question, what did your kitchen look like? And then describing a kitchen. Most of the people in this book, probably most of the people in life, did not grow up entitled. They did not grow up with a sense of the advantages that so many of us have.

10:54And they see food almost as a measure of their success. that there came a point whether they were Paul McCartney or Elton or Tracy Emin all really found that at a certain point they could eat well because they had achieved something in life that allowed it. I love how Victoria Beckham spoke about how her mother used the oven as a filing cabinet. And she didn't grow up with fancy food at all. And then when she was in the Spice Girls, she told you, that's when she started going to restaurants and discovering this love of cooking. I mean, she was a fascinating interview because her thoughts on food and her diet has been so discussed in the tabloids over the years.

11:35What did you learn from her? What I thought about Victoria is that she's rigorous. It's discipline. She really said that she found the food that could make her perform well. And she knew that there was a certain way of eating that meant she could sing and dance on the stage. and that discipline, I think, which is probably part of her knowing how to sing and how to do the moves and how to listen to the music and perform, was the same as the rigor that she does with her diet. I've eaten with her just very recently, and she sticks to it. It's her discipline.

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12:55Rose died in 2010. But for your listeners and your friends who never had the chance to meet her, what was she like? She's a force. She was, you know, in every way she was someone who, you know, filled the room. She's beautiful. She was tall. She was a character, you know. Whatever she was doing, if she looked at you, you felt you were the only person in the room. She was that kind of, she was a great teacher. And the first time I met her, I rang the doorbell of her house because she was a neighbor and friends. Richard had been a friend with her for years. And I rang the doorbell and she came to the door with a baby on her hip and a martini in her hand.

13:41And that was Rose. And she said, come on in. who are you? She was the most lovable and kind. And she was fierce. You know, she didn't, you know, like something. You would know it. Whether she walked into a restaurant and said, you don't know how to make palento. Should I come and teach you? She was amazing and much, much loved. And we think of her all the time. You know, we think of her when we, you know, grill a piece of fish or make a cake. You know, Rose is there. In Michael's interview, he also talked about, talked about your grandparents and your father in particular coming back to America was sort of a European taste in food.

14:16I wanted to talk to you a little bit about, you know, what that was like for you growing up and sort of the most early taste sensations that you can remember as a child. I think we ate very simply in my house. Both my parents worked. So my mother was a librarian, my father was a doctor. We went to school, we did our homework, and then meals were, good food. They were always served on the table. It was a lot about discussion. And I think it came probably from generations of immigrant families. One said to my grandparents came from Russia, the other from Hungary. And I think the importance of community and family.

15:01My grandfather used to say, my father, when he would bring somebody home, are they family or strangers? You know, the idea that you were in a foreign land and you didn't have friends, you know. So I think that probably stayed with my parents, but the circle spread and we didn't have strangers, but there were friends and people who came to the household. I think our house was a house that my friends wanted to go to, and I think that's nice. Kind of reminds me of the River Cafe. Maybe, I hope so, at our own house. I always liked it when my kids brought friends home rather than went to other friends' houses.

15:34That's another recurring theme in the book, this idea of interesting people getting together, talking about the big ideas and what matters in life. And Wes Anderson had a great anecdote about that. He talked about going on the Queen Mary II from New York to England with Jason Schwartzman and Roman Coppola and his wife Jenny and Tilda Swinton and Wes and his wife. I mean, I love this idea of kind of great people getting together and doing unexpected things. Did you notice that that was a topic that sort of came up as sort of being, you know, as a crucible for the creative act? I think that a lot of the people just saw collaboration and food as part of their work.

16:11So especially filmmakers who are on set all day, you know, particularly Wes, at the end of the day, sitting down and then having dinner and talking about what you did. And that happens with people who are chefs, people who are Vivek Murphy, who was a surgeon general, you know, talks about being government, I'd say, a Mark Carney talking about at the Bank of England, making sure that when people came into his office, there was something to eat or drink. that people could sit and have something to relax. Michael Bloomberg, I asked him if he interviewed people at restaurants, and he said yes, because the way a person acts in a restaurant is so telling of who they are.

16:56Are they kind to the waiter? Do they look the waiter in the eye? Do they share their food? There are so many things that you can find out from meeting with someone about who they are. These are really emotional conversations a lot of the time. I mean, has there ever been a moment in an interview where you've had to stop, reset, you know, where people have ended up sort of surprising themselves with what they've revealed? Yeah. Very early on when we, and I know she wouldn't mind, when Gwyneth Paltrow was on. And we, you know, I love her and we know each other and we started talking. And I think I talked about her first and said that when my youngest son died, we wanted to have, it was very sudden, and then it was very close to the Christmas party at the River Cafe.

17:47And I wanted to do something for all the people who had really seen me through and my family through this terrible time. And so I thought, what can I do for them? So I asked Gwyneth if she would just come and sing a song when they sat as a surprise. And she did. She left a concert, a gig, I think at Wembley of Chris Martin, came across London, got there. And I told them all they were going to hear a lecture in organic farming. They were kind of prepared for that. And then Gwyneth came out in her little Christmas cap and sang. And, you know, when we both started to cry, we told that story. And then as we were sort of teary, we talked about, she talked about her father in Florence and the death of her father.

18:32Another one of the recurring themes that's so beautiful in this book is this idea of a maternal relationship. And I think that for many people, you have that kind of, you know, you're a bit of a motherly figure, especially for Austin Butler, who I know you're very close to. I was so moved by his story of, you know, his mother who was a stay-at-home mother who ended up passing away. And, you know, how Austin started cooking as a child because his dad had to work. He was getting paid$2 a night. I mean, did that surprise you? I don't know if it surprised me, but it told me something more about him.

19:04You know, Austin was someone that he was, Elvis hadn't come out yet. He was here filming with Kerry Fukunega, Masters of the Air, with Callum Turner. We were all bit orphans in the storm at that time. They were away from their families. They were making this film. My husband had had an accident, so we were all other friends who came. There were just about six of us. And so in a world of uncertainty, the certainty was that for 48 weeks or 39 weeks, somebody counted every Sunday we met for carts and supper. And that was it. Sometimes people would come who hadn't been before. Sometimes somebody was in town.

19:48But it was this core group, Austin, Callum, Carrie, my two friends, Katie and Stefan, and that's what we did.

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20:44If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping or restocking fees. Every penny back. Upgrade now at washablesofas.com. Offers are subject to change, and certain restrictions may apply. I want to talk briefly about Richard because in many ways he's another through line of this book. Yeah. It's certainly an important part of the life of the show and the life of the River Cafe. Did you tell him that you were thinking about starting a podcast? Did you discuss it with him? I mean, what do you think he would make of all of this? I think he would love it. Yeah, I think he would love it.

21:21And the great thing about Richard is that he was just like, let's do it. whether it was starting the restaurant or having a party. He just was a very positive person. And I always think of all the people that I would like to have. I'm often asked, what guest would you like to have most? And, of course, I would have had Richard because he loved food. I don't think he ever had a meal. And his son, Zad, my stepson, who's the producer of this series, had created with me of it all those days ago. You should have a microphone here. But I sometimes say that I don't think Richard ever ate a meal without a glass of wine.

22:03Do you? Breakfast. Oh, okay.

22:09But I think that he just got such pleasure out of food. He loved to eat. He loved people. He could not understand the concept of wanting to be thinner. You know, the whole thing was about the pleasure of food. And the thing he loved most was having the River Cafe next door to his office. And so he was there all the time. There's a great story, which is that we came in, there was a new waitress, and she was crying. And I said, why are you crying? It was just like 9 o 'clock in the morning. She said, well, I brought a croissant in from home, and I put it on the bar, and Richard Rogers came in and ate it.

22:52he said okay so he loved food he loved people he you do he um so it would have been fun to have him here on these yeah he would have enjoyed it especially since his son and it's a family affair i mean he would have loved carrie russell she's one of my favorite interviews in this entire book because carrie loves to eat yeah she's a girl after our own hearts she said that when she's on sets she mostly eats donuts yeah legitimately i love that don't you love that mel brooks was good mel brooks could remember age 99 the name of the woman who gave him his first spaghetti age seven so for 92 years he's remembered this woman's name that gave him the pasta you know and that's a food memory he was he was great and both he and frank gary had mothers who kept a carp in the bathtub, a huge fish, so that they could make gefilte fish when they wanted to.

23:53And I think that was kind of interesting. They were probably 10 years apart in age. One was from Toronto, Canada, Frank Gehry, and Mel grew up in Brooklyn, but they both kept fish in the bathtub. Sugar is also a main character in this book. I mean, it seems like so many of the people you spoke with have these memories of eating sweets when they were younger, especially people like Stephen Fry who had a memorable experience at boarding school. It was really compelling to listen to Stephen Fry talk about food as comfort, food as something that he craved when he was sent to boarding school so young, where you would have thought the food might be carefully cooked, but it wasn't.

24:35And so the refuge of the sweet shop. I think food is comfort is something that I really am interested in and go for it. Well, your brother Michael is partial to blintzes, right? Was it your Aunt Florence who made a good blintz? Yeah. No, I wouldn't go for the blintzes. I think it really depends what I'm feeling, what kind of comfort. But I think it would be probably a pasta with tomato sauce. I just feel good when I eat that. You know, I think one of the powers of this book is the way that it gives you insight into people that you thought you knew, right? Like people like Nancy Pelosi, Sarah Jessica Parker, Tracy Emmons, Stephen Fry, Jeff Goldblum, Al Gore.

25:14You know, we've read hundreds of interviews with these people over the years. And yet I think your book gives us new insight into what we thought we knew. And that's what makes it so special. So on that note, we are going to try to give people more insight into Ruthie Rogers with a quick lightning round of questions. Okay. The first, what is your karaoke song? All of Me. How do you like your eggs? Scrambled. Richard's favorite thing that you ever cooked for him? A fish souffle with a sauce that is made of the juices of the fish and he put it into the souffle. Favorite city? Mexico City. I lived there for six months and I was blown away by the culture and the kindness and the beauty of that city and the people who live in it.

25:58Does anyone call you Ruth? And if so, who? No. I don't think so. Maybe they're really annoyed at me. Where is your happy place? Right here with you right now. My 11-year-old daughter is relishing this book. Oh. My 79-year-old mother is relishing this book. I think this is a book really for everyone, and that's what I think is so special about it. I mean, who are you going to give this to for their birthdays, for the holidays? Who on your list is getting this? Who is this good for? Oh, yeah. Who needs this book? Who needs this book? I'd love to have it in a library. You know, that would be the nicest thing, as if it could be in school libraries.