Bombs Away! Defusing the Sake Bomb

0:21Hello, everybody, and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America's First Sake Podcast, and And I'm your host, John Puma from the Sake Notes, also the administrator over at the Internet Sake Discord. Come visit us sometime. But yeah, on this show, I'm the guy who's not the sake samurai. And I'm your host, Timothy Sullivan. I'm a sake samurai. I'm the director of education over at the Sake Studies Center at Brooklyn Kura. And I'm the founder of the Urban Sake website. And you'll find John and I here all the time talking about sake and trying to make it fun and easy to understand. How you doing?

1:02I'm good. I'm good. All right. Well, we have an explosive episode this week, John. Yes, we do. We do. So, Tim, I hear this episode might be the bomb.

1:18You got me. I never thought we'd do an episode on this. So you just do explain yourself, sir. Well, you know, John, you and I are all about premium sake. We love to promote sake. We always love to speak about sake in a good light. We always like to look on the bright side and promote the best of the sake world. But there is a topic out there that dogs all of us sake educators. And I thought it was time that we tackle this head on. Dogs you? It dogs us, yes. I'm fascinated by the dogging. But okay, explain the dog. Explain the canine in the room. It means, you know, it's something that plagues us.

2:13So this is a topic as a sake educator that sometimes comes up and we have to address it. And it's very divisive. It's very, you know, it splits the sake world into two camps. And the topic we're going to talk about today is sake bombs. yeah that i said it would be the bomb and it's that bomb that's the bomb we're talking about so um yeah uh so um and and before we even get anywhere with this tim i have a question for you have you ever done a sake bomb i have never done a sake bomb how about you john true confessions all right so no i have not done a sake bomb either so that makes us the perfect people to be talking about sake bombs today.

3:02Now, why have you never done a sake bomb? Well, I didn't really get into sake till I was like 35. So I think sake bombs are something in popular American culture that you do during college or whatever. And I was not drinking sake during college. I never came across one. I was not a big drinker in college. So yeah, it never crossed my path. And then when I got older, I fell in love with sake and was introduced to premium sake right away and kind of never went down that path. Interesting. So what you're saying is that by the time you got into sake, you were too old for that, too old for that shit.

3:48Has anybody ever offered you a sake? I can't think of one. People have brought it up to me all the time as a sake teacher um in a joking way or you know having serious questions about it but uh no one's ever put one down in front of me and been like let's do this that's right i can't i i feel like knowing you i feel like people would be a fuck like you're very um uh how do i put this delicately you give the appearance of a man of high standing and i think that perhaps people would feel that you would be insulted if they tried to give you a sake bomb that is i'm not saying that that is what people think i've just or that that's what you think but i think that people would be a little bit like i don't know tim sullivan might be offended if I tried to give him a sake bomb.

4:46What do you think of that? Maybe. Maybe. Am I a distinguished gentleman? Look at this distinguished gentleman. You on the other hand. No. I have been offered sake bombs before, but my excuse is the one I haven't. I really just don't drink beer. And if I drank beer, it might be a lot of fun. I don't know. But I don't. I'm going to have a follow-up question for you. Just to kind of gauge your level of distinguished gentleman-ness. When was the last time you did a shot? Okay. I know the answer to this. Does it predate your first interaction with sake? No, I've done a shot very recently. Oh, wow. You did a shot recently.

5:27I'm very impressed by this. What was it? Yes. So I went to a very nice cocktail bar in the city, in the West Village in New York. Sure, sure. It's called Angel Share. Yes. Yes. Ah, the legendary Angel Share. The legendary Angel Share. It's now in the West Village, and it is so fun, and the cocktails are amazing. Yeah. And, you know, when you go in there, and you are in the industry, and I've met some of the bartenders there before, and they do serve Hakai-san sake there as part of one of their cocktails. And they were very, very kind to us and welcomed us as people who are in the industry and one of the suppliers for their products.

6:11And when we were leaving, they said, would you like to do a shot with us? And so they picked a tequila and I did it. I said, there's no backing out. I cannot imagine you doing a tequila shot. No offense. I did it. I did it. You see, I understand listening at home, seeing Tim Sullivan let his hair down is a rare treat. And it happens very infrequently. And I clearly missed an opportunity at the Angel Share. I've been to Angel Share and all I had was$25 cocktails. I'd never had a shot. They're very good cocktails, by the way. They're very good. To answer your question, I have done a shot, but never a sake bomb.

6:58And I'm okay with that. I think we should lay a few ground rules about this episode because it's going to generate a lot of controversy online, I'm sure. But one thing I want to make clear right from the beginning here is that John and I are not doing a sake bomb today on this episode, right? Right. And I'm not going to lie to you. i wonder why that is because if we're doing it we we do an episode and we always drink the thing we talk about though here we don't and it's not like we can change gears right now and suddenly make a beer appear i don't actually have any in the house but what was the what's the reasoning behind behind that well i don't think sake bombs are intrinsically bad um and And I don't think I want to do it because they're not something that's meant for premium sake per se.

7:59And I think that if you want to do that with your sake, that's fine. But we decided not to do that because it's not something that I necessarily want to encourage. It's not a cultural part of the sake industry that I want to promote. I want to talk about it on this episode a little more academically, but I don't think doing it is going to help and support the sake industry. And that is always my number one priority. Sounds good. I like that explanation. You explained yourself well. That's fine. And I've also heard many fun things about sake bombs, about their place in the industry and what they bring to the party, so to speak.

8:50But I did not do the studying on this one that you did. So why don't you tell us about the origins of the sake bomb? Yeah. Well, we should get some facts out there right away first. Okay, some facts. I'm ready for the facts. In Japan, the sake bomb is almost unknown. Correct. So the sake bomb is not something that originated in Japan or in Japanese culture and came to the U.S. No, no, no, no, no. No, it is the General Tso's chicken of sake imbibing. Yes. So it is something that was born of American culture, and most Japanese people don't know about it. And when they hear about it, they're like, wow, that's really weird.

9:38So there's a lot - Do we need to explain what it is first? Oh, we should do that for sure. Yeah. There may be people listening - Everybody listening now knows his beer. And I think they assume that there's sake. And if you're with us that far, you're nailing it. Okay, John. So John, why don't you give us your description of what a sake bomb entails? Sure. Have you ever had a Jager bomb before? You, the listener at home, have you ever seen an Irish car bomb? Same idea, but it's sake. Sometimes, if they're being especially fancy, they will take the shot of sake and they will place it on some chopsticks above the beer, you know, kind of as a platform.

10:21And then you slam the bar. Inevitably, the chopsticks will give way. The shot glass will fall into your beer and then you pound the beer with the sake in it. that is the sake bomb yeah you nailed it that's it yeah i've seen plenty i just haven't done it yeah and i will put if you're interested in seeing this in action i will put a video from youtube into our show notes so you can see the sake bomb in action someone else doing one and yeah so someone else you know someone is definitely someone else i wonder if people gonna are gonna think that you and i are on a high horse because we're not doing a sake bomb but no i don't care your guy um yeah my horse is quite low i just just don't enjoy beer yeah so you mentioned a few things when you were describing what the sake bomb was john And that actually ties into the origin of what it is.

11:25A sake bomb is actually a cocktail. Really? Sure. Yes. It is literally a cocktail. I am here to tell you it is a cocktail. Okay. This sounds like one of those, like, is a hot dog a sandwich kind of thing. Yes, this is. This is a hot dog. It's a sandwich. A sake bomb is a cocktail. Done. We have that now. I think so. So you mentioned an Irish car bomb. Right. Which is a cocktail. Right. And another one I want to mention is a Boilermaker. Have you heard of a Boilermaker? Yeah, I think a Boilermaker kind of covers all of these derivative bomb drinks, if I'm not mistaken, right? Well, a Boilermaker is the original.

12:10And it started in the late 19th century, so the 1800s. You would order a beer and it would come with a shot of whiskey on the side. not dropped in, but on the side. So a pint with a shot, that was called a boilermaker. And in the 20th century, it evolved into dropping the shot of whiskey into the beer. And that is a modern boilermaker. So it originated with the shot on the side and evolved into dropping the whiskey into the beer. And then the Irish car bomb is Irish whiskey dropped into stout beer. So that's a variation. That may have a mildly offensive name. We didn't name it. That's just what it's called.

13:06Yeah. I did look up the history of the sake bomb to research this episode and they outlined the evolution from the Boilermaker to the Irish car drink to the sake bomb. The Irish car drink. I love it. Okay. So I do remember the Boilermaker and thank you for clearing that up for me. I always, I knew the Boilermaker was kind of like adjacent to the, the bomb, but I didn't realize that it was kind of the predecessor and the precursor. That's really good information. yeah have you ever heard of a jaeger bomb oh who hasn't okay good that is also in the lineage of these drinks oh absolutely yes jaeger meister with uh no jaeger meister dropping jaeger meister into an energy drink i think is yeah i mean you can also do with beer um i've seen both i think you're like red bull right is usually like yeah the energy drink of choice for a jaeger bomb yeah I don't, that doesn't sound very appetizing to me.

14:11See, that's one where I was too old. When it was like, oh, we're going to drop the Hickermeister into a Red Bull. I was like, that sounds like a heart attack. I don't need that. So that one I was too old for. I don't do Red Bulls either, but. Yeah, no, no, me either. Yeah. So that's kind of, I think, some of the evolution. But part of the timing is when did all this come around? And if you look online, a lot of people kind of postulate or suggest that the sake bomb was invented by GIs coming back from Japan after World War II, so in the 50s. But according to all my research, I think that sake bombs originated a little bit later.

15:03And I actually did some hardcore academic research for this episode. And I went online and researched in newspaper databases. and I spent quite a bit of time trying to find the first printed reference to a sake bomb the drink. A drink? Yes. Okay. Do you want to guess what year the first printed reference to sake bomb the drink is in any newspaper in the United States? Guess what year? I don't think I'm going to be able to guess the year, but what I'm going to guess is the 1980s. And here's why I'm going to guess the 1980s. Because the 1980s was that boom era for Japan. There's a lot of investment in the U.S.

15:55and honestly, a lot of curiosity. So I'm going to say the 1980s because that just feels like the right climate for Japanese influence to start creeping over here. Yeah, you're absolutely right. It is in the 1980s, so congratulations. I was thinking that if the sake bomb was invented in the 1950s, that there would be some mention somewhere in some printed newspaper before the 1980s. But I searched high and low, and I did a really in-depth academic search for this. And the earliest printed reference that I can find in any United States newspaper that mentions sake bomb related to the drink is the Houston Daily newspaper in Texas from 1987.

16:48Oh, I don't know if I want to know how you found a copy of a Houston newspaper of 1987, but I'm impressed. Yes. So there's a restaurant. There was a restaurant, Miyako Japanese restaurant. They advertised in the newspaper a sushi happy hour for sushi$1 a piece. And it says sake dash bomb$1.50. sense so this is the first printed reference i can find to someone advertising a sake bomb as a thing but you know these these drinks kind of evolve over time before people they kind of catch up with popular imagination and then would appear in some kind of documented print so it's it existed for sure long before 1987, but that is the first printed reference to sake bomb in any kind of advertising or article or anything that I can find.

17:52Interesting. That's pretty cool. I'm very impressed that you were able to find that. Yeah. And I'll put, I have a screenshot of the, the ad for Miyako sushi happy hour. I have now brought that up. I have now brought that up on my screen and I can now see this, this little like clippy coupon this is amazing by the way yeah one dollar for sushi oh for wow that is yeah tim do we talk about inflation for a minute wow that's that's incredible wow it would be great if we ever get our delorean to go back to miyako in houston and try it out Now, out of curiosity, Tim, because my mind is always on the money, not really on the money, but my mind is always on the sake.

18:41Since we're not doing sake bombs, the hell are we drinking? Yeah, I thought about that. Did you? Yeah. I thought it might be okay if we drink a sake that I'm sure many people have used in sake bombs before. So this is an entry-level Junmai, and it is one of the most popular and most basic entry-level sakes you're going to see. wouldn't you say that this sake has probably been used in a few sake bombs it wouldn't shock me yeah and you know it also doesn't shock me this isn't the first time this sake has been on the show before no yes you may remember historians sake revolution historians may recall that we've had this on the show before and it's funny that we just reference a newspaper from Texas.

19:37I'm pretty sure our guest on the show was from Texas as well. So you're talking about the Sake Bible with author Brian Ashcraft, and we drank the Ozeki One Cup, which is exactly what's in my hand right now. We are going to drink the Ozeki One Cup, which is a fine sake. It's a Junmai. It's made in Japan. We talked all about this with Brian. It is a fantastic entry-level sake, and the one cup form factor is super historic and we can talk a little bit about that and refresh everyone's memory. So I'm not saying that this sake should be disparaged in any way, but I think that when you're looking for an entry-level approachable sake that someone might use for this sake bomb cocktail, I think that this is a style of sake that people might grab.

20:26It's affordable. You find it everywhere. I agree 100%. Yeah. So do you want to give us the stats on the Ozeki One Cup Jun Mai and bring us up to speed? Absolutely, Tim. So this is the Ozeki One Cup Jun Mai. Polishing rate on the rice is 78%, which is oddly specific. And at the time that that newspaper clipping was made in 1987, this would have been considered for its issue because I believe at the time Jun Mai needed to be under, what was it, 70 %? That's right. You got it. See, I read it sometimes. I know my sake history on occasion. Sensei is impressed. Oh, Sensei will remember this. Okay. It is a Nakade Shin Senban rice.

21:12The sake meter value is plus five. Alcohol percentage is 13 and a half. I like that they bring it down a little bit because, you know, it's one cup. The acidity is 1.5. This is a 180 milliliter beverage that was made in Hyogo, Japan. Yes. So Ozeki is one of the largest producers of sake in Hyogo. Hyogo is the prefecture that makes the most volume of sake of any prefecture in Japan. And this cup was introduced in 1964, the year that Tokyo hosted the Olympics. And as we've talked about on the podcast in the past, one cups from that moment on became synonymous with riding on the bullet train and having sake to go.

21:57yeah well i think the bullet train was probably it had already been in operation at that point but not that long i don't think and i think that having the olympics is going to be a time where you can really promote the shinkansen you know come to japan for the olympics and use this bullet train to go everywhere and also have the smoke cup so 1964 was the olympics and the start of the bullet train oh really uh for some reason i thought it was earlier than that wow So, yep, that's fantastic. Yeah. And it says right here on this little tech sheet that there are more than 4 billion cups sold all over the world.

22:37Sounds like McDonald's over 4 billion served. 4 billion and 2. Yes. All right. Well, let's get this open up and have a sip. Yeah. Sounds great. Okay. We should put this in a shot glass and shot it. At least we would have been closer to the spirit of the sake of all. We're not shooting 180 milliliters though. People at home, that's not happening. All right. So the aroma is very ricey and a little boozy, right? Right. Mostly, I'm mostly getting the rice, which is kind of surprising. I thought I would get a lot of booze and often when there's booze, I'm very sensitive to it. And I get that aroma really quickly.

23:18Yeah. For whatever reason today, it's really given me a lot of the rice. As it should. Sweet rice. Sweet rice. Classic. It's classic. I feel like I'm on a bullet train in 1964. Except there's no smoke in my apartment. I feel like the bullet train in 1964 probably had a lot of ambient secondhand smoke. Yes. Absolutely. Which would enhance the experience, maybe. I think a one cup of sake on a full train 1964, I'm thinking smoke. Yeah, okay. Yeah, we're all there. We're here. It's good. It's very basic. It's super classic. And I think when Ozeki sells this cup, they're really tuning into the nostalgia of this particular sake, which was groundbreaking for the time.

24:10And this form factor, which was groundbreaking for the time. Sure. So approachable, affordable, accessible. And all that being said, I still believe that if people wanted sake for a sake bomb, they would reach for something like this sake. So that's why we're featuring it. Yeah. Yeah. And I want to tell quickly a little sake bomb story. That's good because I have one too. So you go first. one time i was at a um a popular sake bar in new york uh this sake bar at the time was kind of known for their sake bombs it may still be i haven't checked and there's you know uh people around the bar everybody ordered sake bombs the bartender's like you want one you want and then kind of sold so many people and getting the sake bombs and i was there with somebody else or was it i don't think i was there literally with them i think we're just nearby one another and that person was a little more knowledgeable about sake and started kind of shitting on everybody having sake bombs, being a little uppity about it.

25:17Thinking, you know, acting like the sake bomb was bad for sake. After everybody did the sake bombs, everybody pounded them and there's beer and sake everywhere. The bartender is like, look, you gotta, you know, you gotta understand like this, this sake bomb, these sake bombs, you may, you may shit on them, but this is stuff that's going to get these people into sake. and more importantly it's the thing that keeps the lights on here so we can have the nice sake that you like to drink because we sell a lot of these and that you know and that person was like oh shit and i kind of shut up and went on their way it was an interesting moment of like remembering that like you don't don't don't shit on something just because you don't like it you know it's it's good for other people and and there may have a it may serve a purpose in the business that you're sitting in, which I thought was interesting because you don't really think about it that way in a lot of cases.

26:07That's my story. Do you agree with that bartender's point of view? Do you think sake bombs are a gateway to premium sake? I don't know exactly. I've never spoken to the people who had them there. I did speak to somebody once whose first sake experience was a sake bomb. So there is at least circumstantial evidence that it might be the case, at least in one situation. So Tim, what is your story? Yes. My sake bomb story also involves a sake bar that you've probably been to. It is no longer open. I was having dinner at this sake restaurant and I was sitting at a table that was adjacent to the bar.

26:54So I wasn't at the bar, but I was within earshot. And this restaurant used to be on the Lower East Side. And there was a group of, I guess I'll call them frat bros, frat guys. You can just say bros. Bros? I don't think we need to identify the type of bro. They might've been fraternity bros, but they were bro-ing out. They were bro-ing out with each other. And they were not disturbingly rowdy, but they were a little bit rowdy and they were having a good time. And they kind of stumbled into this restaurant and they sauntered up to the bar. And the bartender, yeah, the bartender went up to them and said, hey guys, just so you know, we don't do sake bombs at this bar.

27:52Did they ask for one? No, but they looked like they looked like they were. They looked like, oh, my goodness, to me and the bartender, they looked like they were going to ask for that. They got profiled and they there. It was so funny. They immediately like sat up straight and like their tone, like quieted down. And the bartender saying that was basically like, you know, you guys are just a scooch, too rowdy. We don't do sake bombs here. And I thought it was a very interesting way to like say like, hey, this is like a little bit of an upscale restaurant. You can't be coming in here like it's, you know, beer pong Thursday at the frat house.

28:45Beer pong Thursday at the frat house. Beer pong and sake bombs. bombs so they they immediately were like oh yeah yeah of course no we're not gonna ask for that and they were not apologetic but just like oh yeah like they got the message right away and they straightened up and ordered some great sake and you know this story has a happy ending john so everyone enjoyed their sake and so you had people who avoided sake bombs and got good sake i have people who maybe one day they'll have the premium experience. Yeah. But I think that that point you mentioned before is a sakebama gateway to enjoying premium sake.

29:28I have a strong opinion about that question, and I'm going to tell you what it is. Okay. I thought you might. I'm not going to hold back. Just like it kind of ties into the amazing episode we did with Goto-san about sake cocktails. Are sake cocktails a gateway to enjoying premium sake? And I said emphatically at the beginning that a sake bomb is a type of cocktail. Yes, you did. I don't necessarily believe that having these alternate versions of sake or mixed drinks that have a little bit of sake in them are going to make you a sake drinker. It's like, oh, if you love martinis, that means in the future you're going to be a vermouth connoisseur.

30:15Like, no, it doesn't work that way. I really enjoyed me some tiki drinks in Hawaii, and now I have a really good taste for excellent rum, which you don't necessarily get in a tiki drink.

30:32So you're the counter argument. I am saying that anything is possible. I agree. And you are talking to the guy who got into sake because he had Hakatsuru draft at the Ginza Lion once in 2006. Yes. Would you have assumed that there would be a correlation there? No. On the other hand, there are restaurants that if you go in to the bar and say, can I do a sake bomb here? They're going to say no. It is not acceptable in certain scenarios. You want to say in polite company, Tim. For a distinguished gentleman, such as myself.

31:22So Tim, what have we learned today?

31:29Well, what have we learned? I don't know what we've learned. I learned that you can find newspaper clippings from 1987 in another state if you try hard enough. And if your target is sake bombs, apparently, which is amazing. And I'm super happy that you did this. I don't know how you did it, but I'm happy that you did it. I also learned that sake bombs have a much longer history than I thought. I also learned that the Shikhan Sen actually happened in 1964 and not in like 1959 or 60, which I previously had assumed. I learned that you can tell somebody they're being rude in your restaurant by telling them that you don't serve sake bombs.