Back To Basics: Honjozo

0:20All right. Hello, everybody, and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America's First Sake podcast. On the show, we've got two hosts. I'm one of them. My name is John Puma. I also am the guy over at the Sake Notes. Also, I am the guy who started the internet Sake Discord. And thirdly, I'm the lead mod over at Reddit's r slash Sake community. And I'm your host, Timothy Sullivan. I'm a Sake Samurai. I'm the Director of Education at the Sake Studies Center. And I'm the founder of the Urban Sake website. And we are so excited to be here with you regularly talking about sake and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand.

1:03Hey, John, how you doing? Ah, you know, it's another day. It's a beautiful day in sake land. It sure is. And this is our second video podcast. It is our second video podcast. And I promise that it will have fewer problems than the first. that's my two cents it's my promise to myself i'm looking on the bright side i think we did great and it's going to get better and better so i i am full of optimism here and i'm super i am and i'm super excited for today's topics we are going to something that was my uh resolution last year which is back to basics so we are going to talk about something that is back to basics that i'm super excited.

1:50And I'm happy to say this was your idea to bring this back to the table. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like we've got some myths that we need to bust, myths that we need to slay. And one of those myths is that Hanjozo is somehow inferior sake and not as good or as pure as Junmai or other sake of that ilk. And I just want to say that I'm personally offended by that comment. And it's something I've been like kind of brewing, no pun, in the back of my head for a while. And then recently I was at a tasting event and I had a conversation with a brewer and led me through his vertical. And I felt that his Han Jozo was like my favorite thing at the table.

2:47And Tim, I will tell you, this man poured me an Amachi and I still thought the Han Jozo was the best thing at the table. And so after we were chatting about it, I was like, you know, the Han Jozo really is like incredible. And I told him, I think that Han Jozo gets a bit of a bad rap in the US and people don't appreciate it as much as they should. And his response was,

3:14it is same in japan

3:19heavy sigh heavy sigh yeah heavy sigh and he also he really liked his hanjozo as well which i think he probably likes all of his sake and uh but yeah and i was like you know that i kind of i it's something i already wanted to do and then it just doubled down my like no it has to happen We need to clear the air on Honjozo and get people to appreciate it for the wonderful sake that it is. I am like shocked that John Puma is a Honjozo evangelist. Like this is not on my bingo card. Captain Ginjo himself. But, you know, I think that you're not wrong. That is a little surprising. But at the same time, you know, I think that I'm an equal opportunity sake enthusiast.

4:05even though I have my personal preferences. Nobody's talking mess about ginjo. Ginjo doesn't need a hero. Everybody's ginjo's hero. All right. So let's define honjozo to get started. So honjozo, first of all, is one of the types of sake that has distilled alcohol added. So it's, some might say fortified or distilled alcohol added sake. So that's the first part of the definition. And the second part of the definition for honjozo is that the rice used to brew the sake must be milled down to 70 % or less of the grain remaining. So to get into the honjozo category, the rice has to be milled to a minimum of 70 % or less remaining.

4:56So those are the two aspects of honjozo that really define what it is. and uh you know honjozo is the entry level to premium so when you talk about the premium grades and you're talking about the alcohol added style you really start at honjozo so you know you talked about it being looked down upon maybe not respected as much and that's because it's at the entry level to what is considered premium people don't look down on june my and that's the other entry level premium sake. Yeah. So, you know, in the US, another point that I think is really important is that alcohol-added sakes and the Junmai pure rice sakes, they get taxed in a different category.

5:44So Honjozo, Ginjo, and Dai Ginjo, the alcohol-added styles, get taxed at a higher rate because they have distilled alcohol added to them. So we have fewer of them in the States. So So for the listeners who are in the U.S. and are interested in buying a Honjozo, the selection versus Jun Mai is actually a lot less. Have you noticed that, like shopping around? Yes. It's kind of rare in the U.S. And then also, on the brewing side of things, for North American breweries, it's very tricky to get done. So, yeah. It gets a little weird. Yeah. And since we're going back to basics for this episode, talking about what honjozo is, we know it's alcohol added.

6:33We know the rice is milled to 70 % or less. But what can you expect from the taste or the flavor of sake that's called a honjozo style? Do you have any taste notes that you go back to for honjozo in general? hmm i mean i think that they're generally like i think body wise i think i get a little bit more uh a little more lower thickness a little heavier body out of a honjozo as opposed to a very similar june mai a similarly specced june mai um that's like what i usually think of it's just kind of it's it coats the coats the palate a little bit more coats the mouth a little bit more We're not talking like the way a nigori coats your mouth.

7:18We're talking about how just like a thicker wine kind of does that too. And that's kind of where my head goes. And it's not always going to be the case. But it is just like what my initial impression often is. What about you, Tim? What do you usually think of? Well, I want to mention what you said is so important because you talked about the texture first. And I think that when you add distilled alcohol to sake and you make a honjozo or a ginjo or a daiginjo, it really does affect the texture. And I've found that sake's honjozos tend to have a rounder texture, more mouth coating. Like it coats the palate more.

7:57It's a little grippy and more rich on the palate. And I think that comes from that added ingredient of distilled alcohol. I like that grippy as a descriptor. I'm going to steal that in the future. Yes, you can steal my grippy. And I raise you a rich texture. No, I'm just kidding. I thought I said thick to add whatever. Anyway, the words just come out, Tim. It doesn't always come out the way we want them to. That's right. Yes. Yeah. So I also think that the added alcohol does bring that texture. but it also is because it's the entry level to premium, you tend to get more full-bodied textures as well.

8:42So there are richer bodies, more full-bodied type of tastes, and it can be a little weightier. So that lines up really well for pairing with a lot of heavier, like deep-fried foods in particular. Like if you go to an izakaya and you have some deep-fried foods or okonomiyaki or something rich and heavy, Honjozo is a great choice for that because it has the weight to stand up to it. Yes. And I'm pretty sure I talked about this on the show in the past, but one of my favorite Tonkotsu ramen pairings is the Hakaisan Honjozo. Tonkotsu ramen is very, very thick and it's very flavorful and it's very creamy.

9:24And I think that the Hakaisan kind of cuts through all of that and and and lets you like get ready to reset for another another mouthful of noodles yeah yeah i i just wrote an essay uh it is june of 2026 i just wrote an essay for the uh this month's issue of the true sake newsletter so botan can at true sake yeah he does a newsletter every month. He's been doing it for like over 200 weeks. He's, or sorry, over 200 months, he's been doing this newsletter. And he asked me to write an article about the Hakkaisan Tokobetsu Honjozo. And so if you want to go to Trusaki and check that out, I wrote about some of my experiences working at Hakkaisan and some of the employees' reactions to that.

10:19So that is one of the quintessential Honjozos that's out there on the market. But we're actually not going to be tasting that today. Are we going to taste that today? No. No. That would have been too easy. That would have been way too easy. But what we are going to be tasting is probably my favorite Honjozo. So I'm excited. So do you want me to just get into that? Or do you want to talk a little bit more about... No, I think we covered about what to expect from the flavor. We talked about some pairing ideas. Let's talk about the Honjozo that you picked to taste today. And let us know the name of the sake and give us the stats for that one.

11:05All right. So today's sake, drum roll, is Otago no Matsu Tokubetsu Honjozo. this is to my knowledge the only time I have personally experienced the term Tokubetsu Hanjozo and Tokubetsu if you are familiar with your Junmai's basically means special and it usually means they did something a little bit interesting or different with the sake we'll get into what that is in this case in a moment but this sake comes from Nizawa Jozo-ten which is over in Miyagi Prefecture in Tohoku. And you may, you're like, man, Nizawa, that sounds really familiar, but I don't know this Otago Nomatsu name. Why do I know this brewery?

11:55You know this brewery because they're also the people who make Hakurakusei, a renowned food friendly, they say the ultimate food sake. That is why you know that brewery. So in this case, like what makes this sake special is, And we're going to get into the stats a minute. And the stats are where we're going to find some of that specialness. And that is that they are using grade A Yamada Nishiki from Hyogo. Milled down to 60%. They're doing it. They're making a Honjozo, but they're pulling out the big gun rice. They're going to Hyogo. They're getting some of that grade A king of sake rice. And they're making a Honjozo out of it.

12:39And that makes it very special. The sake meter value, that measure of your dryness to your sweetness is plus seven. So I'd say this is notably dry or is going to be notably dry. Acidity is 1.6 and your alcohol by volume is 15 and one half. So, you know, very, very good stuff. If I'm not mistaken, this is also not charcoal filtered. Yeah, so you're right. So Nizawa Jozoten has two brands. It has several brands, but it has two really prominent brands. For purposes of this conversation, they have two brands. Yeah. So Atago no Matsu is the principal brand that kind of dates back to the founding of the brewery.

13:26And it refers to a pine at the foot or a pine tree that has roots in Mount Atago. So there's a mountain near the brewery, Mount Atago. and matsu means pine or pine tree. So it's like a pine that's rooting in their local mountain. And this is their classic old school brand that's been around forever. And the brewery was founded in 1873. And the second brand is Hakurakusei, as you said before. And this one was introduced in 2002. This is their more modern brand. And as you said, they do very much promote the catchphrase that their sake is the ultimate food sake. So when we taste this, we're going to look out for that.

14:20Would this pair well with food? It's something that they hold really closely to their hearts as when they promote their brand, the ultimate food sake. Excellent, excellent. and i have to take a moment here and talk about the label here and since we are on a video podcast i can show you the label because this has one of the wildest labels i think i've ever seen on a bottle um it's just got stickers everywhere so here we are this is the um this is the otago no Matsu bottle label. And you see, we've got this, this big kind of like old school. I'd say it's very old school primary label here. And then we've got, we've got a sticker here.

15:12We've got a neck sticker there. And then we've got a sash that goes across the entire thing. And then another one up here higher on the neck, they put all the stickers on this bottle. and um yeah one of them is explaining that it was pasteurized once another one is giving giving you the recommended serving temperature uh the the neck one is just kind of telling you the brand again you usually see neck labels like this on like really big bottles of sake like the the isho bin you don't really see them on the tiny guys very much uh and then you know you've got your big like this is what this is uh sash sticker so you can't miss this one if this is you see this in liquor store, you know you found the Tago no Matsu Tokubetsu Honjozo.

15:57That's it. The Tokubetsu stands for the number of stickers. It's very special. Now, what does Tokubetsu really stand for? Well, I'll tell you real quick. So Tokubetsu does mean special. And in the case of this sake, when you polish your rice to ginjo quality, that's the grade that is more premium than Honjozo. So if you polish your rice into ginjo territory, and this just makes it at 60%, you have the option as a producer to label your sake as a tokubetsu or special honjozo when you've milled to technically the more premium category. So they've chosen to sell this in honjozo, but alert consumers, alert us that the milling is more premium by calling it tokubetsu.

16:45So that's really where the specialness comes in. Although it is very special to have all these stickers too. It's also very special to have like Toku-e Yamada from Hyogo in your Han Jozo. I think that's very nice. So let's open this up. All right. So this is a lot of stickers here, as you said, but it is very old school as well, wouldn't you say? It's very Showa era. The main front sticker is very old school. Harken back to the days of your... All right. Okay, I've got my sake poured. I haven't tasted this in a while. I'm very excited. I've got mine as well. So, Tim, I think you might have poured a little bit heavier than I did.

17:42Congratulations. That would not be the first time that's happened. No, but I think usually I take the lead. But this reflects his excitement, I think. Yes. So looking at the sake in the glass, we have a not totally crystal diamond clear in that there's a hint of color here. And I think you mentioned that this is a Muroka sake, not charcoal filtered. And that little tinge of straw color can come from that. So this may be the Muroka showing, that little tinge of straw color. Do you see that as well in your class? I do. Yeah. My trick that I always do here, which I can't really show you guys even though we are on video, is I bring up a pure white image on my screen.

18:39Usually it's an empty notepad and I'll hold the glass up in front of my screen and it'll tell me exactly how, how clear, how clear the sake is or isn't. And yeah, this is just a touch, just a touch yellowed. All right. How about that aroma though, Tim? hmm i mean to me it smells very ricey and almost a little nutty are you getting anything kind of like nutty hmm uh very lightly peanutty it smells like ricey rice uh steamed rice but also like peanut shells a little for me like a little nutty smell very very nice i see where you're going with that but for me i'm getting kind of like it's like definitely the rice definitely that sweet rice but i'm getting a tiny hint of fruit and not like pineapples or not the ginjo ka so much but more of like a berry kind of thing it's very faint

19:47yeah i mean the aroma overall is pretty restrained wouldn't you say like it's not it's not super earthy there's not much umami coming through it's like it's like pretty pretty restrained and quiet. Yeah. And I think that from your sake meter value plus seven, I think sometimes that you get a little more subdued on the aroma from the really dry stuff. Not always, but sometimes. Yeah. Hmm. Very nice though. All right. Are we ready to taste? I'm ready to taste. All right. Cheers.

20:25Hmm. that's really good it's great it's a really really tasty sake and don't let don't let that plus seven fool you this is not to me it's not coming off as overwhelmingly dry but it is it's dry but it's not a dominant dryness yeah it it has this texture to it that to me is super Honjozo-esque. It is, I want to say creamy. I don't want you to think nigori or anything, but it's got this creamy texture to it. It rolls across the palate. It's got a richness and a chewiness. And that comes from the added alcohol, I think. The rice really comes forward on the palate, and it has a very elegant earthiness to it.

21:21Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. There is, in the very finish, there can be, after you've had a few sips, at least in my experience, there is a little heat that builds up a little bit of that alcohol heat. But by and large, if you're sipping and pacing yourself, it actually presents very elegantly. I actually don't get too much heat. I think it's got really good balance. And again, I'm getting the aftertaste for me, my interpretation, my impression is that it has something a little nutty. So it's like, if you think about, you know, brown rice can have that kind of nutty taste to it. Yes. It's kind of like that.

22:05It's this little ricey nuttiness that I'm picking up on. And it's really so fantastic because it has just this very subtle earthiness. When you say earthy, you think like kaboom, like punch you in the face. But this is like very subtle and gentle, balanced. We always come back to that, don't we? Like the balance is so important. Yeah. I think that like you can have so many different styles and so many different flavors. but when something's out of balance the whole thing just feels off but yeah this is really really tasty and obviously I think this is a sake is going to go great with a meal but I also think that this is incredibly sippable you can just drink this and relax kick back this is a wonderful John Puma on the couch sake and John Puma has experience on the couch with this sake.

23:07I'm a little surprised. I think you're more like the tropical fruity ginjo style, but this is something different. I mean, I am, but this is fine. Tim, you're not wrong. I absolutely am that kind of guy. Guilty as charged. But I also really enjoy this and would love to sip it on the couch. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, it's very drinkable. Now, do you think it's the ultimate food sake? What would you pair with this? by the way for the record i think that was the hakaraxia that's the ultimate food sake well i think they i think they apply it to their brewery in general yeah so they get this one gets grandfathered in because absolutely the original brand

23:53so i'm going to say i want something a little bit oily um i want I think I might want like a shrimp scampi with this, maybe. Shrimp. Yeah. Shrimp with pasta and a little bit of garlic and oil and stuff like that with it. Or maybe pesto would be nice with this, too. What about you? What do you think? Oh, well, I think there's a very subtle restrained umami here, savoriness and i think that anything that has that little hint of umami like any dishes like a brown rice rice bowl uh with salmon or something like that yeah like that nuttiness from brown rice i think would work really well with this um anything we'll get along famously here i think that's a good call yeah i also think anything with uh like a dashi or a soy sauce broth is going to be really good with this.

25:01And you could even get into pork chops or any other white meat is going to be great with this, I think, because it has just enough savoriness to be really good with those gentle umami types of meats and sauces that are really great. And the other thing I'm really craving now that I think about it is like tonkatsu fried pork cutlet with the tonkatsu sauce. Oh my God. That's like my favorite thing in the world. I always get that when I go to Japan. I had no idea you had a tonkatsu thing. John, I'm so happy after five years, we're still learning things about each other. I love that.

25:52Yes. It's true. I'm glad I can still surprise you after all these years. Yes. No, do you like tonkatsu as well? It's like one of my favorite things. I do like it. I don't like it as much as you do. I'm not usually wild about the tonkatsu sauce as much. But if you give me some... Yeah, it's a little surprising. But if you give me tonkatsu with some curry, perhaps, So Japanese curry, it's like the pairing. You have your curry rice with your pork cutlet on top of it. Oh, my God. That's really good. Yeah, that's so good. And that would pair great with this sake as well, too. Curry, tonkatsu would be amazing with this.

26:37I think we may have come to the conclusion that this is the ultimate food sake. Perhaps. Perhaps. Although my hankering for shrimp has not gone away, just for the record. I can still I can still go for the the shrimp dish of my people

26:56so yeah that was a lot of fun that was really good tasty tasty sake and I hope that some listeners are going to be like oh wait a minute Honjozo I'm sorry did I say listeners? viewers some viewers might be like wait a minute Honjozo maybe I need to try some of that maybe it's not as bad as I've heard. And I do think that part of the hanjozo stigma comes from like in recent years, there was this thing about just like pure rice and like Jun Mai being a very, being a more true representation of sake. And I think that's just, you know, big Jun Mai getting out there. And, you know, I think to a certain extent, it's gotten some traction.

27:51And I think that poor Hanjozo and then the Aruten sake have been left in the dust by it. Yeah. Well, like I mentioned, there's just fewer of them here in the States. So they have an uphill battle, but I think it's good that we're highlighting them. And this is a great example to get started with. Yeah. I do wonder like what percentage of sake that comes to the United States is actually Aruten. and then how much because i did some research on the japanese side of things and it seems like it's like 40 or 50 percent r10 uh in in japan that's not counting that's only for premium sake so if you were to count futushu you'd get to like 70 i think or 80 percent gets really high up there but But if you don't include that category, it scales back to like 40, 50.

28:47That's my little bit of knowledge for the week. Now, Tim, before we go anywhere, I have to ask you something. Because I haven't asked you this in a very long time.

28:59Nizawa. Yes. Have you been there? John. You have this twinkle in your eye. Not only have I been there, but I've actually worked there.

29:16Wait a second. How about that, Tim? All these years later, we're still learning things about each other. Yes, it's true. Yeah. So... Wait, when? Yeah. So this is back in 2011. There was a big earthquake in Japan. the Great East Japan earthquake. And I heard about a volunteer group from England that was going to Japan to visit and support a bunch of breweries in the affected areas. And I contacted them and asked them if I could go with them. And also, Brian from Sipt Importers was also there. So it was two American old guys, me and Brian, and then a group of college people from England, and probably a group of like 20 people.

30:16We all went over, and we visited several places. And one place we stayed for three or four days and worked was Nizawa Shuzo. And it was interesting because it was a very transitional period for them. A few things happened. And they're in a town in Miyagi called Osaki City. And they had three brewery buildings there. And they were all really, really damaged. And I'll tell you an interesting story. There were aftershocks at the time that we were there. And there was an alarm system that the brewery had put up. And if there was any movement in the walls, this alarm would go off and we all had to run outside.