Sake Recognized by UNESCO as an Intangible Cultural Heritage

0:22Hello, everybody, and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America's First Sake Podcast. I am your host, John Puma. I am the guy who runs the internet sake discord as well as Reddit's r slash sake community. And I'm your host, Timothy Sullivan. I'm a sake samurai. I'm the director of education at the Sake Studies Center, as well as the founder of the Urban Sake website. And every week, John and I will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake. and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand. Well, hello, Tim. How are you doing today? Hey, John. Good to see you. I'm doing good.

1:07Excellent. I'm glad to hear it. Today's episode is going to be a little more informative, I think, or focused on information. Yes. Yeah, but not the normal kind of how sake is made kind of information. We're not going to be talking about Ginjo necessarily. And we're going to be talking about something a little bit more, a little bit more intangible, maybe. I don't know. Well, let me start by asking you this. If I say the word UNESCO, first of all, UNESCO, do you know what that stands for? And what do you think of when you hear the word UNESCO? I think of high school because I think that's when I first heard the term UNESCO.

1:48And I think it's also the last time I knew what UNESCO stood for. Well, I can refresh your memory. UNESCO means the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization. So this is an agency of the United Nations, fosters international cooperation with education, science, and culture. So it's an agency of the United Nations. And I think there's one thing that UNESCO is really famous for, right? I know that they do the World Heritage stuff. They focus on kind of finding things that are like culturally relevant to different countries and their impact on the world writ large and try to represent and focus on these things.

2:35Okay, this is special. And this is why it's special. Yeah. What I think most people think of when they think of UNESCO is the World Heritage Program, which is a program that UNESCO runs to identify, preserve, and protect cultural and natural sites that they say are of outstanding universal value. and in the U.S. we have a number of UNESCO World Heritage Sites. The Grand Canyon is one, the Statue of Liberty is one, but they also have some in Japan. So Himeji Castle and Mount Fuji are both cultural heritage sites. Really? Yeah. Nice. Everywhere around the world, They have about 1 ,248 as of right now.

3:25So there's 1 ,248 of these world heritage sites around the world. That's pretty nice. And that's, I think, the most famous thing that UNESCO does. And when you visit a place and they say, oh, we're a world heritage site, you know that has a certain cachet, right? Right. Or at least they want you to think so. No. Yes, absolutely. Yes. Yeah. So, but in addition to that, UNESCO has many layers to what they do. They also have a program that recognizes what they call intangible cultural heritage. So the World Heritage sites are physical places. Sure. And the intangible cultural heritage of humanity is another thing that they focus on.

4:21And that's more as intangible, as you said before. It's things that are traditions or expressions of humanity that are passed down from ancestors to descendants. These could be things like performing arts, rituals, festival events. But what we're going to focus on today is something that was recently added to this intangible cultural heritage of humanity that has to do with sake. And this falls into the tradition of preserving traditional crafts. So now sake is considered a traditional craft. Yes. Ooh, sake making, I guess I should say. Yes. So the official description of what they have recognized as an intangible cultural heritage of humanity is the traditional knowledge and skills of sake making with koji mold in Japan.

5:21That's very specific. Let me read that again. The traditional knowledge and skills of sake making with koji mold in Japan. Hang on a second. You said sake making. Yes. And I'm an American. So I need to ask you, are we talking sake making, mehonshu making, or are we talking sake making, alcohol making? Yeah. So that's a really good point, John. In Japan, the word sake means alcohol in general. I think we've mentioned that before on the podcast. If we didn't, we're not doing our jobs. No, I remember we did the how to order sake in Japan episode, one of our most popular travel sake vocabulary episode.

6:06And we mentioned there that the word sake in Japan means alcohol in general. So when they say here that they're recognizing the traditional knowledge and skills of sake making with koji mold, they're referring to making alcohol with koji. That includes what we call sake, nihonshu, but it also refers to awamori and shochu for that matter. Interesting. So even though we're talking about sake on this podcast, nihonshu, if you're in Japan, this UNESCO recognition, is that the word for it? Yeah, that's right. Okay. This recognition covers the whole thing, the whole gamut. Any alcohol in Japan made with koji falls under the recognition of this UNESCO listing.

7:02And there are over 670 elements that have been added to UNESCO's intangible cultural history lists. In Jamaica, reggae music is recognized as an intangible cultural heritage of humanity. And in India, they've recognized yoga. In Japan, they have a number of intangible cultural heritages, including kabuki theater. That was recognized in 2008. Washi papermaking, that very delicate Japanese papermaking. And also washoku, which is traditional Japanese cuisine. So Japanese cuisine was also recognized as an intangible cultural heritage of humanity. So to this very esteemed list, they have added - Right up there with reggae.

8:00No, I actually, I honestly am like, yeah, reggae should be on there. That's like awesome. I mean, that's really cool. Yeah. And it's, if, you know, we'll put a link to the UNESCO World Heritage Site and it's fun to just like look through and see what, for different cultures of the world, like what they've petitioned to be recognized as something that is of such a value to humanity that it should be preserved and protected. And I think that, you know, I've listened to a few interviews with representatives from Japan, and this is something where you have to do a lot of paperwork and applications, and, you know, you have to apply to have this recognized.

8:45And it's a political effort to get everyone in your country on board with submitting this to UNESCO and getting it recognized. But I think that there are three reasons why they wanted to do this for sake making with Koji. Hang on a second before you go any further. I love that you said that there's a lot of paperwork and effort that goes into this. And let me tell you, if there's a country that has people that respect and appreciate the effort of paperwork, it is Japan. So they must have been until you've gone to a Japanese stationery store. Oh my gosh. It is like a little slice of heaven for me.

9:31Yeah, so that's true, John. Yeah, they were down with that and they got it done. So this recognition was officially registered with UNESCO in December of last year, so 2024. So this recognition isn't even a year old, But it was so much work, so much paperwork, so much political will to get this done. Why would they want to do this UNESCO recognition for sake made with koji? um well i i in my mind i feel like just as something that japan would want with with sake being a a special thing to them and with sake breweries popping up outside of japan at a rapid clip these days and also you know sake making in japan is a little bit under threat not just through not just due to climate change but also uh due to kind of like lagging domestic sales and things like that.

10:30I think this is something that they were hoping could maybe kind of give it a punch in the arm. Was I right on any of that? Well, you were right saying that the market for sake in Japan is shrinking. No one can dispute that. It is shrinking and the market is not growing in Japan. But from the interviews I listened to for the different representatives, they actually have an ambassador to the UN from Japan. And that person kind of leads the charge for these types of recognitions. And I listened to an interview with him and he mentioned three things that really were the driving force behind wanting to get this recognition for sake making with Koji.

11:12The first one is that they hope that for everyday regular Japanese citizens, this will renew the interest in sake. Okay. So that number one, it's... You got it. That, boom, I got that one. Yeah. And I think that makes sense. If something that is everyday in your culture is recognized on the world stage like that, how can it not help you refocus your energy on that? I think that one is good. the next thing they mentioned was transmitting the skills of koji making and sake making to the next generation. So when you have this renewed interest, maybe there will be more young people up and coming who will want to learn these skills.

11:54It's been recognized as something that is of cultural importance to humanity, not just to Japanese people, but to humanity. and these traditional crafts and methods of making koji need to be preserved and protected. So that was another hope that this recognition will get people of younger generations to want to learn how to do this. Okay. All right. That makes sense. I mean, the aging population and I think we've talked about this on the show before. No, I'm sure we've talked about this on the show before, but there is this, this idea in Japan among, specifically among the young people that sake is like the grandpa's drink, right?

12:38I don't even think it's like your dad's drink anymore. It's probably moved on to like grandpa's drink. Uh, and so, you know, a lot of the, the sake is a kai is that do really well are ones that are appealing to younger people and able to get them in the door and, uh, I mean, and bring this to a generation. Yeah. And the third thing that they mentioned was connected to exports. The one area of sake sales that's really growing is the export market for Japanese-made sake. Sure. So bolstering the reputation of sake on the world stage through this UNESCO recognition. I think they also hope that that will support and continue that trend of exports growing year over year.

13:23And having it recognized should support that, according to the ambassador to the UN from Japan. And I think all those things make sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty cool. So do you think they'll be effective with those things? What do you think about this type of recognition? How does it land with you, JP? I'm very glad they're doing this. And I think that it is important to showcase, you know, things that are special about your culture. And to me, obviously, I am a person that journeys to Japan every year to try new and interesting sake. And I live in a city that is very friendly to receiving sake.

14:10So, yeah, like I think that fits the bill, right? This is something very special and unique about their culture, about their situation. And I love the idea of the rest of the world stage recognizing that. Yeah. At least that's my takeaway. That's my main takeaway. Yeah. Yeah. Well, maybe as a button on this whole discussion, I actually went to the UNESCO site, and I mentioned there's paperwork and forms to fill out. And there's actually an application form for this recognition that was online. And they had a brief summary of their argument for wanting to get this recognition. And maybe as a way to conclude our discussion, would you indulge me and let me just read this little paragraph about their thinking on this?

15:02Please. All right. So this is from the brief or the application to become a intangible cultural heritage of humanity for sake making with Koji. This is the nomination of the traditional knowledge and skills for sake making that have been developed through the accumulation of experience of craftspersons since ancient times. Sake, also known as a Japanese alcoholic beverage made from grains and quality waters, is deeply rooted in Japanese culture. An important feature of this element or of this application is using koji mold, which converts starch in the ingredients into sugar. Craftspersons sprinkle koji mold spores onto steamed grain to start the fermentation process and oversee it to make sure the koji mold grows to its optimal condition.

16:03They make adjustments to the temperature and humidity, which requires full use of their five senses. Their labor decides the quality of the sake. The skills using koji mold have been developed reflecting the natural features and climate of regions and gave rise to various kinds of sake, meaning various kinds of alcohol, such as nihonshu, which we know as sake, shochu, and awamori. So they are proud of their skills and the public and private sectors that support them. this application is vital in present-day Japan as a living heritage. So they explain that really the crux here is the use of koji and kind of harnessing koji mold as a way to get sugars out of grains and make different alcohols from that is really at the crux of this application.

17:05So I think if you look at the headline for this, it sounds like, oh, sake is a cultural thing by UNESCO. But it's really not what you and I call sake. It's really alcohol made using koji and the craft of using koji and how important that is. And I think that's really cool. You do have to dig a little deeper. You have to scratch the surface to get down to the true meaning of this intangible cultural heritage. But it's really worthwhile to read the descriptions and learn what they're really protecting here, which is the traditional craft and knowledge of making koji. well yeah i i want to say that you know prior to looking further into it and this is absolutely what you did here too uh you know when you first hear oh sake blah blah blah and you think that they're recognizing nihonshu like that is a yes the immediate thought um because in the west we just think of it that way and and uh and even in my circles in my head i hear because they're saying sake i didn't think to think they meant the japanese term for sake It is very interesting that it is the broader definition.

18:20But yeah, that's the thing that I'm glad they're doing. I think it's important. I don't know. I never know how much of an impact these things are going to have. All we can do is try, but we never know what the end result will be. What do you think? Yeah. I think that 99 % of the English-speaking world, when they read Sake Making with Koji, they're to think of of nihonshu of sake that the way you and i understand it yeah and unfortunately i think that's going to leave shochu and awamori a little bit uh forgotten but they're in there too they're they're totally a part of this so anyone who digs a little deeper will get the full picture for me as someone who has sake as a career having this as something to talk about in my classes to talk to my students about this, you know, being recognized as a cultural heritage of humanity and how this craft needs to be passed on to the next generation and how important it is.

19:19That's just really, really cool. And I think it's well, well worth the effort. I think so too. Speaking of quality products made with Koji that have the word sake in them, um you know we haven't had any sake yet tim i think we've got a if we're going to be talking about uh about this and celebrating this this achievement we should celebrate it our own way and sip some of it now i don't have any shochu or amori on my desk right now but i do i do as often is the case on this show have a nihonshu uh and i believe you do too is that is that the case yes do not do not tell japan distilled but i am fresh out of shochu right at the moment well so i think we're gonna have to go with some old-fashioned nihon shu as we say japanese sake and you and i have both selected one of our favorite brands each I think so.

20:22A wonderful expression of sake made from koji. And so, John, why don't you give us the lowdown on what you're tasting, and then I'll do the same for my sake. This is a sake I did not expect to have on this show. Because one thing that we always try to focus on is sake that you can get in the United States. and this is a sake that earlier this year i had in japan and the reason i had it was because the brand i love dearly and it was a bottle i thought there'd be no chance would be coming to the united states so when i was in hiroshima i was at an izakaya and i saw they had this bottle of the gangi natsu junmai the summer sake from gangi and i absolutely love gangi ganges from yamaguchi right by Hiroshima.

21:15Really, really great stuff there. And so I had a sip of it in This Isakayan. I thought it was lovely. And I thought that was going to be the last time I had that sake for quite a while. Lo and behold, our friends here in New York at Mutual Trading have picked up this sake and it's now available here. And I could not be happier because I'm, again, a big fan of their stuff. And I also really like Natsu sake. I'm happy when people bring it over and I'm always happy to see more of it here. Now, let's clarify. You're saying Natsu. Natsu. Natsu. Which means summer. Summer. This is summer sake. This is not anything else.

21:56Oh, my goodness, Tim. I didn't even think of that. Anyway, this is, I'm going to be drinking the Gangi Natsu. They're calling it Katakuchi, so it is a little dry, apparently. Junmai. It is made with Yamada Nishiki for the Koji and Saito no Shizuku for the Kakamai, the starch component. The rice polishing for both is 60%. We're dealing with Kyokai 901 yeast. The sake meter value, that measure of dry to sweet, is plus 9. So the Karakushi was true. It is a touch dry. A little more than a touch. The acidity is 2 and the ABV is 15%. So touch light, not as light as some Natsu, but a touch on the lighter side of things.

22:47Now, while I'm getting ready to pour this, Tim, why don't you talk about what you've got? Yeah, so I also wanted to pick a very classic and much-loved brand from Japan to highlight this UNESCO-honoring sake-making with Koji. So I went with a sake from Suige, often known in English as drunken whale. This is a Junmai Ginjo, and this is their Suige Koiku 54. Yes. That's a wonderful sake. Yeah. The rice variety that's used is Gin no Yume, polished to 50 % remaining. The alcohol is 16%. The SMV is plus 6.7 with an acidity of 1.3. So I think this falls into the light and dry cleaner category. Sounds right up my alley.

23:45And yeah. And the prefecture is Kochi Prefecture. Yeah. Wonderful sake from a wonderful prefecture and a wonderful brewery. Yeah. All right. So I'm going to open this and get it into my glass. And while you're getting that one into your glass, I'm going to take a little whiff of the aroma on my Gangi Natsu. All right, John. So go for it. Why don't you do your tasting first? Let's hear. I have not had the Gangi Natsu, but I don't think it's a secret if I reveal to the world here and now that I am a Gangi fanboy of the first order. It just means you have taste, Tim. It's okay. so the aroma on this is it's just a nice light like fluffy kind of um pillowy aroma like a like a very not not ginjo ka in your face but a soft sort of um almost sweet rice very very soft hints of fruit this is wonderful very subtle uh and then on the taste on the palate

24:59so this is nice and dry especially on the finish nice and crisp you would love this tim this is right up your alley uh there's there's a tiny it's a little bit of acidity on it too not nothing too distracting just really goes really well it's all very well balanced it's dry it's not aggressively dry this wants food desperately and i think it's going to go with a lot of nice things that you can pair with it but that dryness is going to go super well with fish especially i think this is the sushi lover's dream right here really good stuff i'm very happy about it. Let's talk for one moment about natsu sake, summer sake.

25:47If I'm a consumer and I see that the bottle says natsu or summer sake on it, what can you kind of expect from that? Like, what do you think? I've got some ideas about what it means and how I would serve it, but Do you have any thoughts on that? I do. In my mind, the Natsu, the summer sake, you're generally going to get a little bit of a lower ABV because you're not just dealing with summer in whatever part of the world you're in. You're dealing with summer in Japan, which can be punishingly hot and humid. And super high ABV sake, it's not a great idea when it's really hot out. It's going to dehydrate it.

26:29It's not the move. so a little bit lower on the alcohol content and and also a little bit tend to be a tiny bit like crisper and drier which i really enjoy you know just just very like you know soft and drinkable stuff with that with that with that nice little bit of crispness on the on the finish i see that a lot you know you don't get the the viscous fruit bombs you get the lighter thinner soft-bodied stuff, not the heavy, you know, it's hot out. I'm going to drink this heavy, high alcohol sake. Like, no, it's going to be stuff that's going to go nice and cold. It's going to be stuff that's nice and smooth.

27:07Yeah. I think for me, the primary note on serving a Natsu sake is that it should be nice and chilly willy, like nice and cold. It is summer in Japan, as you said. And if you're out there sweating to the oldies, getting around Japan, you know, you want something that is going to be cold and crisp. And I think that the drier styles lend themselves to that serving temperature so, so well. So when I see Natsu, I think like this should be served icy cold and crisp. Absolutely. Yeah. So let's talk about the Suigae. Okay, drunken whale, Koiku 54, again from Suige. If I give this a little aroma test, let's see.

27:58Okay, so this has aromatics that lean more towards the ricey side of sake. I'm not getting tropical fruits or a classic ginjoka. I'm getting more of a balanced rice aroma. and it gives me the impression from smelling this that I might get a hint of dryness on the palate just from like my intuition from smelling this type of aroma so a little bit on the ricey side but very balanced not overpowering not too much ethanol or alcohol aroma just really good balance but more more on the ricey side and let's give it a taste so this is really interesting it does it is overall dry. The finish is dry, but it's not crisp and light.

28:46This has a little bit of layered richness to it, and the rice flavor comes forward the most. So again, I'm not getting much of a fruity characteristic at all. It's bringing that Gin no Yume rice flavor forward. And for everybody at home, the Gin no Yume was a rice cultivated by sake, well, not by sake but by farmers in Kochi for sake brewing specifically. So it is specifically a local rice that's been bred specifically for Kochi sake. Yeah. When I sip on this, the word that keeps coming to mind is like layered or depth of flavor. You get the initial hit of the flavor and then it unlocks a few more layers as the sake washes across your palate.

29:34And these are a little bit more grain or rice forward. Again, not getting much fruitiness or tropical fruits here, more rice forward, but really delicious. And above all, the balance is there, which is a danger when something, you call it ricey. Is it too ricey? No. You've got balance between the small amount of residual sugar, the alcohol, and the rice flavor. that kind of like just a whisper of umami as well all kind of play together really well and bring great balance so i think this is a food-friendly sake the finish is a little drier than i was expecting but i'm really enjoying it yeah i mean so we can't kind of known for making dry sake i think they're the tokobatsu junmai is like the king of dry sake in some cases some people encounter that as their first like first like super dry sake and they really like it a lot for that reason.

30:30Yeah. I think that this comes in a little bit lighter than the Tokobetsu Junmai. I think it's a fabulous sake. It's so drinkable. Yeah, the Tokobetsu Junmai from Suige, which we've had on the show a few times as well, that is like the poster child for medium-bodied dry sake. You know, just like, just, you know, if you're out with your friend and they don't know what to get, just give them that and just say, here, drink this, you're going to love it. And it like wins every time. It's really good. Yeah. So, Tim, this was a lot of fun. I learned a few things today about UNESCO. It's been a long time since I've even thought about UNESCO.

31:11And thank you for bringing it to my attention. Also fun to sip this. I'll get it with you. Yeah. I think that this happened last December, so we can't classify this as breaking news. But I thought that this still warranted an episode and it warranted us taking a moment to pause and alert our listeners who are all emerging sake fans of all levels that this is something that happened late last year and it's something we can all look to to raise the profile of sake across the world. So we couldn't let it go without acknowledging this amazing elevation of sake made with koji as an intangible cultural heritage.

31:59So happy to talk to you about this. Thanks for indulging me, JP. Always a good time. Always a good time. All right. Well, it was great to taste with you. We had two amazing sakes on the show today. I also want to thank all of our listeners for tuning in. Thank you so much. We hope you enjoyed this episode. A special hello and thank you to all of our Patreon members. If you're looking for a way to support Sake Revolution, one thing you can do is join us and support us on Patreon. Please visit patreon.com slash sake revolution to learn more. And if you're a fan of ours and you want to check out our show notes, we talk about our show notes a lot on this show.

32:41And honestly, that's because we put a lot of effort into them. and so um you know there's not just uh you know pictures of the bottles for everything that we drink we have a lot more in-depth statistics on a lot of the sakes that we have we also have a full transcript if you you know want to read something instead of listening that's completely fine yeah so get over to sakerevolution.com and uh and check all of that out now tim grab your glass and you at home too make sure you grab your glasses we're going to congratulate sake on its intangible cultural heritage recognition from UNESCO. So remember to keep drinking sake and Kanpai!