Can Creators and Podcasters Swing the Midterms?

0:00Hi, everyone. This is Scalable, a weekly show about the business of the creator economy.

0:04Jasmine Enberg: I'm Kaya Yurieff. And I'm Jasmine Enberg. Every Thursday, we take you beyond the headlines to tell you what's happening, what it means, and why it matters. It's like the former press secretary who has lasted for five days calling herself a lawyer. No. All I can think about in my head right now, though, is legally blonde and her getting into Harvard and going, what? Like, it's hard.

0:28Hi, Jasmine. Hi, Kaya. And hi, everyone. Welcome to Scalable, our weekly show about the business of the creator economy. Every Thursday, we tell you what's happening, why it matters, and where it's all going. We also bring on founders, creators, executives, and other experts who are driving the industry forward.

0:44Jasmine Enberg: Today's episode is all about whether creators actually influence how people show up to vote. The midterm elections are just around the corner, and we've been talking to politicians media executives, creators, and influencer marketing firms about how politicians are working with creators this cycle and whether it's actually moving voters. Many of the conversations that we've had have been with or centered on Democrats, largely because they've been further behind than Republicans when it comes to creator and social media strategies. And a lot of them are working really hard to catch up right now.

1:16Jasmine Enberg: But we've weaved in examples from both sides of the aisle. We also have a ton of exclusive data to share from our friends at Syracuse University and four, as well as new research from Sounds Profitable. So we have three big questions that we're going to address today. One, how big of a role will podcasts play in the midterms? Two, how much are paid creator partnerships playing a role? And three, is mainstream media making a comeback? Finally, we'll look ahead to the 2028 election cycle with some predictions and expert opinions on what's next. Okay, starting with our first big question, how big of a role will podcasts play in the midterms and even in 2028?

1:51Jasmine Enberg: So a lot of people dubbed the 2024 election as the, quote, podcast election. I was always a little bit skeptical of this label. I mean, obviously, it was the first time that we really saw candidates, including both Donald Trump and Kamala Harris, turning to podcasters, sometimes instead of traditional media and journalists, to reach voters. And those moves obviously made a lot of noise and shaped the narrative around the candidates and the issues. And then, of course, certain podcasters, meaning mainly Joe Rogan, also brought in a ton of listeners. And they also had an outsized influence, especially on specific parts of the electorate, meaning young men.

2:29Jasmine Enberg: And according to a Harris poll conducted right after the election, 43 percent, so almost half of Americans, said they thought Rogan had the biggest influence on the election. that was second only to Elon Musk, who was cited by a whopping 71 percent and ahead of my personal favorite, Taylor Swift, who was cited by 36 percent. But that data is showing just what they think about the environment and not necessarily about how they were personally influenced and certainly not how they voted. And vibes are different than votes. And it's a lot more nuanced than it might seem on the surface. So here's how Marie Baldassar, the chief of staff and senior communications advisor for Democratic California Congressman Ro Khanna, put it to us in an interview when we asked her if podcasts are as powerful of a tool as a 2024 election cycle made it seem.

3:17I think podcasts contributed to the vibes. Like, it was, like, cool. And so I think, like, the vibe shift was actually important and, like, built momentum. Also, just because I think some of the podcast clips got shared so widely online that that made them really powerful, too. But I agree with Sarah. Like, I still think cable is a huge force.

3:44Jasmine Enberg: So the Sarah she's referring to there is Sarah Drory, the communications director for the office of Ro Khanna, who we also interviewed for this episode. I told them both I agree and that cable news can be clipped, too. And I see a lot of cable news clips on my feed. Anyway, there's obviously a ton to break down here. And before we do that, Kaya, I want to hear your high level take on podcasts. Yes. So I do think podcasters and creators can be influential, but there are limits. So we really saw this play out with young men. as you mentioned, 56 % of young men voted for Trump in 2024, which was up from 41 % in 2020.

4:17And the podcast strategy was really well targeted at reaching that voting group. Was it the only reason young men voted for Trump? No. Did it help? For sure. But for me, a lot of it comes down to the format being effective. So on a cable news hit, you have a few minutes max to make your point. And it's really hard for a politician to not come off as scripted. Meanwhile, on a podcast, you can really hear someone talk at length, and it can really humanize them. And Trump did this much better than Harris, who still came off as quite stiff in the limited podcast interviews that she did. Likeability has long been part of how we talk about politics in the US.

4:50I mean, polls literally ask people, which candidate would you rather have a beer with? And political scientists may caution and still say that's not a great predictor. But I think podcasts and creators can still shape how people feel about a candidate, and it does matter to an extent. But at the end of the day, there are so many reasons people vote. A big one in this cycle will be affordability, which is a major concern for many Americans right now. Gas prices and food costs have skyrocketed. And there also may just be other issues that are deeply personal to them that drive them to the polls, whether it's abortion rights or a data center coming to their backyard.

5:24I mean, those reasons are going to be much more motivational for them to actually go vote than a creator telling them who to vote for.

5:31Jasmine Enberg: Yeah, I mean, I totally agree with everything that you said. There's so much about politics has to do with personality. And there's so many reasons why people vote the way that they do. And what they say out loud or in a poll might not reflect what actually happens in the voting booth on Election Day. I will say, though, I do think there is quite a big difference between podcasters and social media creators. Yes, people will follow specific creators, including for news. But more often than not, when people say they get their news from social media and creators, it's a passive thing. They're not necessarily signing on to social media or following a news creator.

6:08Jasmine Enberg: Instead, they are getting served it by the algorithm. And then with podcasters, as well as with mainstream media news sites and shows, it's much more self-selective. It's much more active. I mean, people are choosing to watch or listen to a specific person or a news show. And I think that's one of the reasons that podcasts became so important to political strategies in 2024. And also, of course, because of what you said about podcasts really helping to humanize candidates. I think that's absolutely true. And it's really valuable for voters when they're making decisions. And I think also sometimes candidates are hoping for somewhat of an easier interview with a podcaster.

6:46Jasmine Enberg: I will say, though, there is risk to that, too. It doesn't always work out in your favor, especially now that everything is being clipped for social media. And that can remove context and is often designed for virality. Yeah, this isn't a political example, but Mark Zuckerberg recently went on Stripe co-founder John Collison's Cheeky Pint podcast, which you would have to imagine would be a very friendly space for him. And the clip that ended up going mega viral from that episode was Zuckerberg sipping a Guinness on the show and grimacing. And it went so viral because people were commenting on how awkward and uncomfortable he looked.

7:22So as more public figures, whether it's politicians or CEOs, turn to podcasts hoping for a softer interview, this situation shows that they can still end up being the punchline and unexpected things can go awry. I mean, you just never know how the internet is going to react to something.

7:37Jasmine Enberg: No, but Zach is always being dragged for something. I mean, a lot of it is warranted, but you know, he ends up being the punchline a lot. But as a total aside, I have to say, since both of us saw The Social Reckoning this past weekend, and we got to see it together in LA, which was so much fun, Jeremy Strong's Mark Zuckerberg voice is uncannily good. Like, if you close your eyes and just listen to the movie, you literally will think that it's Mark talking the whole time. No, it was so good. I mean, apparently he's a method actor, and you could really tell. And obviously the original Social Network.

8:10Yeah, it came through. And obviously the original Social Network movie was just too iconic, and it didn't come anywhere close for me with this new version, but the voice was so good. And I loved also that we could fit in a movie night with our very packed schedule in LA.

8:22Jasmine Enberg: I know it was so nice. But anyway, back to podcasts. The other thing that made me really skeptical of the framing of the 2024 election as a podcast election was that I also was hearing it being positioned as the quote CTV election, which admittedly does not have the same ring to it as podcast election, as well as the influencer election. So I think so much of this depends on how you're measuring it. I mean, if you take the CTV election framing, for example, that was definitely not because of vibes, but it was because of all of the increased spending that was going toward connected TV ads that year.

8:54Jasmine Enberg: I think it's also just so emblematic of how we always jump to extremes, but the reality is, is that all of these things can be true. There's no single channel that's just gonna be 100 % dominant because voters are incredibly diverse and they get their information and are influenced in so many different ways. And, you know, we already know this and talk about this all the time. We live in a really fragmented media environment. And I remember being quoted in Semaphore about Kamala Harris's campaign strategy. And this was around the time when Charlie XCX had posted that she was brat. Do you remember this?

9:30Jasmine Enberg: And, you know, her Twitter profile was green and the team was so excited and Democrats felt so energized and it felt like all these young people were mobilizing around her. and it pained me to be negative, but I said she can't meme her way to the White House. Obviously, there were a lot of reasons why the election didn't play out in her favor, but unfortunately, I was right on that part. I know the memes were so good. It was like one of those really like, it felt like such an organic, fun moment on social. And like, I don't know that we've seen that same kind of energy for a political candidate before.

10:04But to that point, even when creators do endorse candidates and join them on the campaign trail, which is a step farther than just posting memes about them, it doesn't mean that the strategy will work. I mean, Twitch streamer Hassan Piker is a perfect example from this cycle. He was very active in the primaries earlier this year. And the left-wing streamer supported three political candidates and was with them on the campaign trail. And they all ended up losing their primary races. And then a fourth candidate won in New Jersey's 12th congressional district. Hassan Piker did an interview with Politico about this, and his response was, quote, I'm not a kingmaker.

10:38And he said his goal really is, quote, just trying to identify wonderful candidates that are more responsive to the needs of the masses and push for them and get them elected. And then the last goal is to connect them with his audience.

10:51Jasmine Enberg: Okay, I'm not a kingmaker is such a good quote. It is also a perfect way to bring us forward from 2024 into the midterms this year. I do think we're going to see a lot of the same dynamics play out in the midterms as we did in 2024. Certain podcasts and podcasters are going to play a really big role, especially when it comes to reaching certain voters, largely because they're already influential among those groups to begin with. But the reality is that most people aren't getting the majority of their election information or being swayed by what they hear in podcasts overall. So here's a little bit of data just to back that up.

11:25Jasmine Enberg: According to Syracuse University, under 4 % of Americans considered podcasts to be their primary source of political and election news. Doesn't mean they're not listening to podcasts for political and election news, but it's not the primary way they're getting that information. And to nod back to what Marie was saying, four times as many people in that survey picked cable news as their number one source. The caveat here is that 16 % of people or around 16 % of people also said that they get their news from YouTube, which could bump up podcasts slightly, but obviously people can watch a ton of different things on YouTube.

11:58Jasmine Enberg: But then if you look just at voters who listen to podcasts monthly, and these are then heavy, loyal podcast consumers, about one quarter said that a candidate's appearance on a podcast could make them more likely to vote for that person. Interestingly, almost one in 10 said it could make them less likely, which also goes back to our point about these appearances not always working out in a candidate's favor. And that's all coming from new research from Sounds Profitable. All of this to say is that podcasts are definitely going to be influential, especially among the people who tune into them. But not everybody is.

12:35Yeah. And this doesn't surprise me, right? Like you said, attention is extremely fragmented now. So, I mean, I certainly see more news now on Instagram, but that doesn't mean I'm no longer reading stories from CNN or The New York Times or occasionally also turning on the TV. You basically just have to be everywhere, whether you're a politician, creator, or brand. And when we talked to Rep Conn's team about this, I mean, they have a sub stack as well, which is doing well. So it's not even just the social platforms, but just across the board. But what else was so interesting about Sound's Profitable's findings was that they were roughly the same along party lines.

13:07So 21 % of likely Republican voters and 19 % of likely Democratic voters say a podcast appearance could make them more likely to support a candidate. So on the Republican side, the most prominent creators that I've seen this cycle have been Jake and Logan Paul. So Logan has a podcast as well. But the strategy really has been an IRL one. I mean, they've been at the White House. They've spoken to troops at the Pentagon. They met with the Treasury Secretary. And it just goes to show you that scale really matters. I mean, they have massive followings. They've been creators for a very long time. So they can have an outsized impact and reach a lot of people.

13:42I mean, just like Joe Rogan, right? The left has been saying we need to find the Joe Rogan of the left, right? It's just become a cliche. But I mean, the Paul brothers, though, are all over my feet this cycle. And they certainly have been the ones on the right that I've kind of seen break through the most. And then the same thing with Hassan Piker, right? Throwing his support behind candidates. He's also someone that traditional media writes a lot about these days, too.

14:02Jasmine Enberg: A hundred percent. And I will say the Paul Brothers memes have been all over my feet as well. OK, but moving on to our second question, how much are paid partnerships with creators going to play a role in the midterms? So historically, creators have mostly worked with political campaigns and spoken out on social issues for free. But what is new for this cycle is that more campaigns and political groups are reaching out to creators for paid partnerships, including with creators whose content isn't inherently political or who've never talked about politics before. So, Kaya, thoughts on this? Okay, so to back up for a bit, it's also worth noting that creators have historically been really hesitant to wade into politics or back a specific candidate at all because they have this fear of alienating audiences, especially when they're in a niche like fashion or cooking that can just appeal to so many different types of people.

14:52Now that's starting to change, though. So more audiences are really expecting them to speak out and use their voice and share what they actually believe and then, like, use their platform for that. And many more creators are now doing that. So Fora's research found that 42 % of creators feel more comfortable posting about politics than they did in 2024, which also was kind of a groundswell of change where more creators were comfortable. And then only 19 % feel less comfortable. And then 57 % plan to post about the midterm. So these are really significant numbers. I will say, though, a lot of them are still really careful about it.

15:28I mean, they rather talk about an issue that's personal to them, like clean water, which seems like that wouldn't be too controversial, right? Or family care programs, or just even telling people to go vote without actually backing a specific candidate or party. And I think this could be a limiting factor to creators' influence, too. I mean, while a creator may appear in a video with a politician or interview them on their podcast, they often stop short of endorsing them. Alex Cooper, for example, never actually endorsed Kamala Harris formally. And Cooper actually opened the episode with sort of a disclaimer, acknowledging that she has a, quote, very mixed audience when it comes to politics and that her goal is not to change your political affiliation.

16:09But in general, you could still interpret a creator inviting a candidate onto their show as a form of endorsement.

16:16Jasmine Enberg: Or refusing to have a candidate on the show as, you know, a form of not endorsing them. Yeah. But anyway, I mean, I do think that's a really, really important distinction. There is a huge difference between throwing your support behind a specific candidate and supporting an issue. And it makes a lot of sense to me that creators are still reluctant to cross that line, even as more of them are wading into politics. And it's not just because they're worried about alienating their audience. They are, but they're also worried about alienating brands because brands historically have not liked it when creators speak out about politics.

16:49Jasmine Enberg: They've often tried to stay away from political creators altogether. I think there's been a little bit more leeway on social issues, especially for companies that share the same values. But it's still been a really tricky environment for them. And to be fair, I do think a lot more brands are starting to become more receptive to political creator content. And partly because everything is now so politicized, so it's impossible to avoid altogether. And because, to your point, people expect creators and sometimes brands now, too, to use their voice and speak out against or for specific issues. And I think that creators, too, have also realized that staying silent can be just as, if not more, damaging than saying something.

17:32Jasmine Enberg: So if you don't speak out about an issue or remain so-called apolitical, especially when things are really heated, people might think that you either tacitly support something or that you're just tone deaf. Here's how New Jersey Senator Cory Booker put it to us in an interview in February. This was recorded just after the fatal shooting of Alex Petty by two Border Patrol agents. I think there's a lot of existential threats to our democracy right now that are going on. I think there are unprecedented attacks on not just basic constitutional principles, but even on the media. I think all of us have to make a moral choice in times like this, where being silent, I think, has a cost to our society.

18:14Being silent can make you, in some ways, be complicit in some of the things going wrong. I understand the importance of picking battles. I always tell people for your mental health, one of the best rules I have is you do not have to attend every argument you're invited to. But I think this is a moment where if you have a platform, you should really be wrestling with what you choose to speak about in the realm of politics because politics affects everything from – I had meetings today about maternal mortality. I've had conversations today about the very food that we eat. All of it is being touched by the world that you are in right now in the Capitol and the decisions that are being made by an executive that is trying more and more to act with greater authority, I would say almost in an authoritarian way.

19:05Jasmine Enberg: So obviously, Booker is encouraging creators to talk about politics. But what's so interesting in his answer is that he's also focused mostly on issues rather than endorsing a specific candidate. He's obviously a sitting senator. He may or may not be running for president in 2028. So we'll see how things change on that front. But at least for now, he's talking about issues more than candidates. Yeah, and being in a campaign cycle or up for election probably does make a difference. But I still think that's generally the route that we see politicians taking with creators and vice versa. When we spoke to Marie and Sarah from Rep Khanna's team about his midterm strategy, they were also very clear that a lot of their work with creators centers around issues rather than promoting him as a candidate.

19:44I mean, part of that is because the congressman isn't in a contested race this cycle, but it's also because that's what they see creators being most comfortable with and what's resonating with voters, too. Here's Sarah on that. An example of this was around the TikTok ban. Roe was super vocal about it, and he introduced legislation to kind of reverse some of that and protect the livelihoods of the creators. He met a lot of them through that. And it was just like natural where they started speaking up about politics because it really was affecting their jobs and like their lives. People who had never spoken about politics in some cases were like getting involved.

20:18So that's one example where it's like kind of natural in terms of like elections. We try to build relationships and if they're not comfortable, gauge their interests and just continue to build relationships. When it comes to this election cycle, Sarah and Marie, as well as other Democratic strategists, told us that the issues they're focused on include affordability, data centers, AI, and foreign policy, especially against the war in Iran.

20:41Jasmine Enberg: So I wanted to talk a little bit about the TikTok ban example that Sarah brought up, because it is an issue that isn't inherently Democratic or Republican. It was obviously very divisive, if you think back to that time, which feels like a lifetime ago. And it's true that people on the right were more likely to support a ban than people on the left were. But there were plenty of Democrats who also supported the ban and vice versa. I think the really big divisions in this case were more along the lines of people who use TikTok versus people who didn't use TikTok. And then, of course, between Congress, which was pushing for a ban, and the people themselves.

21:16Jasmine Enberg: And I think that's one of the reasons that it made it easier for creators to get behind this as an issue, plus the fact that it also impacted their own livelihoods, and for people and even brands to feel a little bit more comfortable with it, too. The problem, of course, is that there aren't all that many issues that aren't politically polarizing, except maybe data centers and AI. And kid safety online is another big one that's emerged over the past year or so and really gotten a lot of steam. Also, for me, the TikTok situation, I was sort of surprised that they cited that as a no-brainer because of the China element of it all as well.

21:52I mean, it just made it even more divisive and kind of more of a politically fraught issue. But anyway, going back to our original question, how much will paid political partnerships really matter in the midterms? So according to the four data, 29 % of creators have been approached to do paid political work ahead of the midterms. That means that most of the work that creators do in politics is still unpaid, like visiting a politician on Capitol Hill or joining them on the campaign trail or having them on your podcast. But a whopping 83 % said they would accept paid political work if approached.

22:23And of the creators who had been approached, nearly half said that they rarely or never talk about politics.

22:28Jasmine Enberg: I was shocked to see how many creators were on board to accept paid political work. Like, just like there is a difference between supporting an issue and supporting a candidate, I also think there's a big difference between organically speaking out about something and being paid to do so, at least in the eyes of their fans or their audience. A lot of it is honestly just optics. I think people just don't like political advertising in general. But I would have expected more reluctance to accept payment for this. And then I was also really shocked to see how many non-political creators have been approached to do paid work.

23:01Jasmine Enberg: Like we knew anecdotally that this was happening, but being able to put numbers around it is really eye opening. And I think, you know, looking ahead, that's one of the things that is going to make creator partnerships paid or not more powerful in the midterms and even beyond. Like, if you're a person who isn't necessarily tuning in to news creators or news podcasts, but you are a diehard fan of, say, Alex Earle and she starts talking about politics, you might pay attention and you might even be swayed by that. Yeah, I was also really surprised by those numbers. I mean, we always love being able to see the data.

23:37And I agree. I mean, someone who never speaks out about something and suddenly does, like, that can really capture your attention. So I'm sure that's why also we see more of these campaigns turning to these creators who don't inherently talk about politics.

23:49Jasmine Enberg: I mean, just think about Joe Rogan. Like, obviously, he talks about politics a lot on his show, but he doesn't have a political podcast, right? It's not a political news show. He just happens to talk about politics and bring on a lot of politicians. But anyway, back to payment. One of the reasons I was expecting more reluctance around it was if you just think back to the media firestorm that followed after it was revealed that New York City Mayor Mamdani's team had a Signal group chat with about 200 influencers and they were sharing talking points and updates with them there. Columbia Journalism Review, which first released the report on this group chat, said that the influencers were not being paid for participating in the group or for any of their coverage.

24:30Jasmine Enberg: But some of these influencers were being paid by city agencies for work on specific campaigns, including things like voting and health care and immigration. And a lot of people were not very happy about that. No, and the payments reportedly ranged from$5 ,000 to$20 ,000 per campaign, which can be very hard to turn down. One other big issue with the Momdani group chat was whether the influencers were properly disclosing their relationship and access to the mayor and his team. I mean, when you're not paid, that gets even kind of murkier with disclosures. And there just has been so many issues in general with political disclosures still.

25:06And laws have been really slow to catch up. I mean, there has been some movement. California Governor Gavin Newsom, another potential 2028 contender, signed a bill in September that introduced criminal and civil penalties on creators who don't disclose paid political ads. So while existing laws already required influencers to disclose whether they were being paid, violators didn't face any legal consequences, according to NBC, which makes no sense to me. Like, why do you have the law then if there's no consequence?

25:35Jasmine Enberg: I mean, it's just it's an issue with disclosures in general. I mean, it's a huge topic of debate in influencer marketing. It's mostly it's guidelines, right? And they're very, very hard to enforce. Influencer marketing is really what this group chat is all about. It's not journalism like they're these creators and influencers are being turned to for marketing purposes. And when you think about disclosure, like, yes, it's always important as a consumer. You do not want to be lied to. You want creators to be disclosing when they're in a paid partnership. But the stakes are just so much higher when you're talking about an election or politics versus what sneaker brand to buy.

26:08Jasmine Enberg: And then, of course, there's also the question of accountability, which you and I talk about all the time. I mean, in a world where you already have politicians, government officials, other powerful people, including Mamdani, turning to creators and podcasters, sometimes instead of traditional journalists, it is so hard to know that these people are being held to account. And now if you layer on the fact that more creators and podcasters are being paid for those partnerships, I mean, I think things are getting really blurry. I have so many thoughts, which could fill an entire episode, but I will try to keep it brief.

26:41So newsrooms have really been church and state, right? If you're on the editorial side as a reporter or editor, that is very separate from the business side. Like you typically don't have any visibility into what's happening. You don't know what ad is going to be running on your story or your newsletter. And that separation is really important to maintain independent coverage. I mean, if Amazon suddenly starts pouring more money into advertising on The New York Times, that's not going to impact what the Amazon beat reporter writes about the company or make the coverage suddenly more positive. And even though sometimes companies do think that that's going to happen, sorry, it's not.

27:14And then if there is any sort of potential conflict, media outlets typically will and should be disclosing it. So, for example, I don't know why this is the first thing that popped into my head, but I remember reading this really incredible feature story in The Atlantic around the 20th anniversary of 9-11. And it was written by a staff writer who personally knew the family that she was writing about. And that was a disclosure they made near the top of the story so that readers could keep that in mind when reading her reporting. Because personally knowing someone will give you a very different lens, and readers should know that.

27:43But I also think lines are blurring a tiny bit, right? Like, depending on the publication, you know, sometimes talent, whether it's a reporter who hosts a big podcast for a media outlet or a TV news personality, may have some select meetings with advertisers and brands or help kind of wine and dine them. They still would never be the ones actually negotiating the deals. So there's some separation that remains. But I do think especially as media companies are putting talent more forward facing, they are starting to tap them a little bit on the business side. Yeah.

28:12Jasmine Enberg: And then on the flip side, and we've talked about this before in reference to other industries, including film and TV, creators are much more comfortable with the money and the content being tied together. I mean, that's kind of the core of their business. And I think when it's done right, that can be OK. But the risk of money impacting coverage is really, really high when you have a creator that doesn't have journalistic training or standards or, say, an editor reading their work that could point out any potential issues. And the stakes are just really too high in politics and in election coverage to ignore these issues.

28:48Jasmine Enberg: And then, of course, there's a concern that we alluded to at the very top that some of the reason why more politicians and more campaigns are turning to creators is because they want an easier interview. They don't want to answer tough questions. And they may also think that creators are going to be more amenable to editing out things that they don't want aired, which is something that you do not do if you are in a traditional newsroom. So we talked about this a little bit with Rashida Jones, the former president of MSNBC, who is now CEO of Piers Morgan's media company Uncensored. What she said actually really helped quell some of my fears around this.

29:22Jasmine Enberg: Take a listen. I think the audience is smarter and more discerning than sometimes we give them credit for. I think there's a reason you're seeing some of the bigger names go to creators first. There are two camps. There's one version of this where people are going to safe spaces. And I think the audience kind of sees through some of that stuff. There's another version of this where you've got some of the bigger names going to creators because they know they'll reach people and they know the demographic of people and they know that it's a younger audience, it's a more dynamic audience, it's a more premium audience.

29:57Jasmine Enberg: So I think that's right. I also think there's a place for both traditional journalists and political or news creators. It's kind of two sides of the same coin with what Rashida was saying, but there's different reasons why people turn to each of these. Creators are often there to help people make sense of the news. They're offering their opinion, they're offering commentary, they're offering context or their own personal experience with something. That's a big no in traditional journalism where you're taught that you're not supposed to be the story. They're more there to report the facts and tell us what's happening.

30:27Jasmine Enberg: I think we need both. And I think that's one big reason why you see traditional newsrooms now hiring or working with more creators. Yeah, I would add to that too, that newer media companies like Puck are building their businesses around reporters with trusted expertise around their beat. Like Matt Bellany, who's such a prolific entertainment reporter, Like you're reading his newsletter because you want his take, but it's very much grounded in reporting. I mean, for me, like I certainly was able to give a little bit more of my point of view in my newsletter at the information than I would in even in an article at the same publication.

30:59But I would also add, like, I think journalists always want to help people make sense of what's happening, but they're doing that more through the experts versus their own voice. So like if you're writing a feature story about a trend, right, like you're typically bringing in other voices to help explain that rather than, you know, giving your own opinion. And there's just also a time and place for both of these things, right? This is what Rob Bonta, the attorney general of California, told us in March. His take was that it's OK to sometimes go on podcasts or talk to creators who are going to give you a friendlier interview.

31:28He's also been going on more podcasts himself, including one focused on climate change, which takes place in an actual sauna. I think journalists, creators, can bring us back to where we need to be, where we have a right to our own opinions, but we don't have a right to our own facts. You can have a respectful conversation that's also a hard conversation. You can talk about tough issues. Just because there's not sort of hard-hitting questions that address something that's sensitive doesn't mean it's not an appropriate conversation. I think there's a time and place for all those things. If you're a leader in a space like the governor or a senator, you should expect those questions to come at some point in some environment from some person.

32:11But they don't need to happen every time to legitimize that dialogue at that moment, I don't think. So I just think there's a time and place for it. Anyway, this leads us nicely to some more of the Syracuse research because it looked at the differences between traditional journalists and news creators. What it found was that respondents considered independent news creators and traditional journalists to be distinct roles. In fact, 79 % of respondents said that there was a, quote, meaningful difference between an independent news creator and a journalist. So that was a relief for me to hear because I actually don't understand this, are creators journalists to be.

32:43I mean, I think you need to have had training and experience to be able to call yourself a journalist. And like, that doesn't mean you have to have a journalism degree, but it means you've had to have experience working in the field. I mean, everywhere that I've worked, especially at CNN, it was such a rigorous fact checking and standard process. I mean, sensitive stories would get a legal review. I mean, so much happens behind the scenes that I think readers don't realize before a newsroom puts a story out into the world. And, you know, general social media creators, whether they're focused on news or not, they just don't bring that same level of scrutiny to their work.

33:14And that's OK. But they just shouldn't be calling themselves journalists. It's like the former press secretary who has lasted for five days calling herself a lawyer. I did learn from that exchange that there is a difference between a lawyer and attorney. Either way, she's not either of those things.

33:29Jasmine Enberg: No. All I can think about in my head right now, though, is legally blonde and her getting into Harvard and going, what? Like, it's hard. But anyway. Back to the Syracuse research. The data also showed that despite what you might think, people don't necessarily trust news creators more than they trust traditional journalists. There's a big catch to all of this, though, and we'll get to that in a moment. So that's also a perfect segue into our third and final question. Is mainstream media making a comeback? So to start, there's a lot of conflicting information and opinions about the role of traditional journalists and journalism, especially now ahead of the midterms.

34:04Jasmine Enberg: Yeah, I mean, hating on traditional journalists is nothing new, but it feels like some of the rhetoric has really ramped up lately. At the same time, we're also seeing new research that shows that trust in mainstream media has actually gone up for the first time in a very long time. A journalist's job is to ask powerful people hard questions that ordinary people are either thinking or something that will have an impact on their lives. And then they're going to fact check these people on what they say and what they do. And obviously, if as a journalist, you're doing your job right, these powerful people are not going to like some of the questions or the coverage because they're being held to account.

34:43Jasmine Enberg: It's also up to the interview subjects to either answer and deflect some of those questions that they're being posed. In fact, one of the very first things that you learn in media training is the art of the pivot. And I'm not suggesting that it's a good thing that powerful people are deflecting hard questions, just that everybody has a role to play in these situations. And also readers can draw their own conclusions from seeing someone deflect that way, right? Like, I mean, I agree with everything you said. The watchdog element of journalism is so important. Journalists are, they act as an independent check on power.

35:16And the role is to scrutinize governments, powerful people and institutions on behalf of the public. I mean, I see journalism as a critical part of democracy, not to sound dramatic, but it's true. I mean, just like Attorney General Bonta told us, like, you can still have a hard conversation and it can still be a respectful one. And it's important. And also, there's just plenty of positive coverage that people get from traditional media. So this idea also that all news is negative or that journalists are only kind of out to get the scoop or interrogate people is also just not true. As we've seen the wealth of some of the richest people in the world explode, they're less and less interested in being held to account.

35:53and they have other avenues to get their messages out, right? I mean, Elon Musk bought X. It's his own personal megaphone now. And in general, I mean, they don't need to go on TV or be on a magazine cover like they did 15 years ago. Okay, my rant is over.

36:08Jasmine Enberg: No, well, I'm going to continue it because not to shift the blame onto social platforms, but they really do deserve some of it in this case. And I think I'm also have social reckoning stuck in my head. But anyway, part of the problem, to your point, is that as more people have started turning to social media and to creators for news, that's also changed the way that mainstream media outlets have to report the news, at least on those apps. Because we know the things that are going to go viral or are shared more broadly are often inflammatory. They're meant to spark debate. And everyone, including journalists and creators and Elon Musk himself, you know, they're clipping the juiciest part of their interviews for social media or saying the things that they know that people are going to respond to.

36:51I'm not here to say that mainstream media gets everything right all the time. Like there was always tension between editors and reporters where like they did the story and someone else is writing the headline. And you're like, well, that doesn't really reflect fully the story. There's this tension between, well, we want people to read it. It's just like our whole debate on thumbnails, right? Like you need to get people into the story to read the meat. So that was always something that I personally also struggled with because sometimes it's hard, obviously, to pack all the nuance into the headline.

37:18And then I'm seeing more and more that like New York Times, Wall Street Journal are creating videos then of their stories. So then, I mean, that's a whole new muscle and another kind of job for reporters to do. But yeah, there's always a tension. And also like sometimes the headline is a little bit, you know, veers on the edge of click baby. So it was always nice as a reporter to be able, when the company called you and was like mad about the headline, it's like, sorry, I didn't write it. Now at Scalable, we can't say that, but we do write the headlines. Anyway, that's the midterms.

37:47Jasmine Enberg: But I was going to say, we think about that a lot, too. And sometimes what we put in the email is different than what we put on the web because we know that it hits people differently. And we want to make sure that we're, you know, framing and designing the content for, you know, the medium that they're in. But anyway, all of this has rubbed some midterm candidates the wrong way. Here is how Michigan Senate nominee Abdul El-Sayed explained it on the Weekly Show podcast with Jon Stewart.

38:20Jasmine Enberg: Okay, so that's El-Sayed's take. But zooming out, what is so interesting about this is that as these politicians and creators are complaining about how they're being portrayed in mainstream media or the way that journalists are behaving, trust in traditional media among consumers is actually up. So according to Gallup, 33 percent or about a third of Americans now have a great deal or a fair amount of trust in mass media. That's up from a record low of 28 percent last year. Republicans, interestingly, drove the increase with trust catapulting from 8 % to 22%. Now, obviously, one uptick doesn't mean this is going to be a lasting trend, but it does feel like a really big reversal.

39:03Jasmine Enberg: So, Kaya, as a former mainstream media journalist, what is your take on this? What's actually going on? As a member of the MSM, I'm glad to see it bouncing back. There are still important caveats here, though. traditional media isn't like suddenly in the clear and so bad. Trust in media institutions is still at historic lows. I mean, even in Syracuse's survey, people were less likely to trust news outlets than the journalists who work for them. And that's because in general, trust has shifted from institutions to individuals. People trust people. This is also why the creator economy is what it is today.

39:38At the same time, though, like mainstream media still does matter. I mean, we see all the time creators posting that they were, you know, on the Forbes or Time list of top creators. It's in their social media bios. They still want to be quoted in the press. I mean, the legitimacy and stamp of approval from legacy institutions still matters. That's why the Oscars still matter. The Emmys, all of these things, like creators want those awards too. And then, of course, plenty of people are still reading and tuning into mainstream news outlets. So I pose the question of why traditional media still matters to Nick Thompson, who's currently the CEO of The Atlantic and is the former editor and chief of Wired.

40:15Here's his answer. They still matter because they have huge reach because the people who do read them trust them immensely. They're hugely influential because lots of people read them because lots of influential people read them. And a lot of the political conversation, cultural conversation is set by publications like this. So they still do matter. The challenge is how to win back trust. So I think this is a great way to sum it up, right? Like, there is still trust. Influential people as well read it. And millions of everyday people still read it also. But there's still work to be done. Also, where do you think that the news creators are getting their information from?

40:47Normally, it's traditional media. They're often not on the ground doing reporting themselves. The people who are doing that are the independent journalists who have left legacy media outlets that are doing it on their own. But the average TikToker is reading CNN and then making a video based on what they read there.

41:02Jasmine Enberg: A hundred percent. And I think that's such an important point because a lot of times that's lost in the conversation. But I also have to say, I am not surprised to hear the CEO of a mainstream media outlet like Nick Thompson say what he said. I think most execs from big media outlets that we've spoken to have said similar things. I mean, obviously, they're going to say that mainstream media still matters, but I also don't think they're wrong here. I want to zoom in on the trust question because that was a big topic in the Syracuse survey as well. So like I said earlier, the data showed that people don't necessarily trust news creators more than they trust traditional journalists.

41:35Jasmine Enberg: That probably is quite a big surprise, at least it was to us, given the narrative out there about how trust has transferred. And what was really interesting about this is that the results were pretty much the same for Democrats and Republicans. The catch, though, which we alluded to, is that this was specifically for when it came to reporting the news. And if you dig into some of the answers to the other questions in the survey, what you see is that trust between independent news creators and traditional journalists is actually pretty equal. So, for example, 61 percent of respondents said they trusted a well-known independent news creator as much as a well-known professional journalist on political topics specifically.

42:14Jasmine Enberg: So this is obviously all super nuanced. And what it says to me is that people's opinions and feelings about journalism and the news are just so much more complicated than they might seem. It is not black and white at all here. And I think a lot of this, too, goes back to what I said earlier about journalists and news creators playing different roles for people. Though I will add now that the lines are also getting a lot blurrier as more traditional journalists are behaving like creators on social media or becoming independent journalists themselves. Here's Sharon Masali, the CEO of media company NowThis, talking a little bit more about why people are turning to creators in an election year.

42:55Every sort of election year, whether there's something midterm or not, what you're seeing the trend being is that there is less and less reliance on traditional news as a way of figuring out how to formulate your opinion and what you should vote for when you go to the polls and a lot heavier reliance on social media. And that as a way to inform you leading into an election. The other thing that's been interesting over time is the decision window is smaller and smaller and smaller and more closely linked to the day that you have to go to the polls. Not that you started thinking about this in July for November, necessarily.

43:32Very few people I think are doing that. I think it just really concentrated more towards the fall. Yeah, I thought her comment on the decision window being shorter, like that really resonated with me because I've seen so much out of home advertising and nonstop ads on TV for political candidates, but I've seen a lot less political content on my social feeds leading into the midterms. I mean, look, all of our feeds are personalized and different, and this isn't a presidential election. But still, I've been surprised that I haven't seen more. I'm sure that will change as we get closer and closer.

44:01But in general, I think the same thing has been happening kind of in the more general news cycle, right? stories that used to take up a week or even dominate coverage for multiple weeks are now sometimes over in a day. Like we just move on so quickly.

44:13Jasmine Enberg: Yeah, I mean, 100 percent. I have not seen a lot of coverage on my social feeds either. And it might not be a presidential election, but it is still a really important election for people in the U.S. So I have also been really surprised at how little content that there has been. But one of the other things that is related to this that stood out to me in our interview with Sarah and Marie from Ro Khanna's office was why they said that cable TV is such a big part of their strategy still. Like, yes, it's because of the wide audience that cable TV still reaches, but it's also because of the volume of hits they can do, which kind of goes to your point of things moving so quickly and just needing to be able to be, you know, up on the news all the time.

44:52Jasmine Enberg: Take a listen. It's really a combination and also like what he has time for. Like we try to fill up his calendar as much as possible with media, but sometimes it's like what fits in the schedule. And I think like we do like four cable hits a week and we try to do, you know, multiple podcasts a month. And like, it's just kind of what's doable and like what our bandwidth is, but we do try to like do it all, honestly. Okay, I know they frame this as being lower lift, but like as someone who used to be a regular on cable TV news, four hits a week is a lot. Anyway, that commentary is a perfect way for us to pivot back to our original question that we're supposed to be answering of whether mainstream media matters.

45:33Jasmine Enberg: So Kaya, yes or no? Okay, well, of course it does. And I feel like I've made my case on this podcast today, so I will not go on further. Jasmine? Fair enough. Obviously, I agree. Yes, it does. Do I think it needs to evolve so that it remains relevant and continues to matter? Absolutely. And I think a big part of that is because of what you said. Institutions are just so much less important than the individuals who work for them, And that has a lot to do with social media and creators. And I will leave it at that. Okay. So looking ahead a little bit to 2028, let's quickly go through some of the new and interesting tactics some of our experts brought up.

46:10The three things that stood out to us were clipping, Reddit, and harnessing AI. So let's start with clipping. So clipping wasn't as big of a thing in 2024. And now clipping operations are becoming a strategy in politics. We saw this with Spencer Pratt, for example, during his failed bid to become mayor of L.A. earlier this year. The independent tech journalist Taylor Lorenz reported that he was running two clipping campaigns and paying people to post. It might have been more than that, but that was just what she had kind of pointed out. And then in September, The Atlantic reported on a conservative operation that's using a service in Latvia to offer payment for short clips that are designed to look like they're just a grassroots effort supporting the GOP.

46:50So looking ahead, we can definitely expect to see both Republicans and Democrats figure out their clipping strategies. One thing that a Democratic strategist told me is that a big thing in the next presidential election will be figuring out distribution at scale and how to have a really effective clipping operation. One thing this person pointed out is that Democrats may be less willing to, let's say, hire an army of clippers who may be minors in developing countries because that doesn't really jive with the values of the party. Whereas this person said the right may be less concerned about that.

47:19I mean, this is just one person's opinion. Don't come at us. My reason on that is that the Republicans already seem to just be more ahead on clipping strategies, just like they've been ahead on social media and creator strategies in general.

47:31Jasmine Enberg: Yeah. I mean, I think it'll be really interesting to see how all of this plays out. There's a lot of time in social media years until 2028, and we're already seeing a lot of momentum from the platforms to limit clipping. That includes YouTube, which just said it would be prioritizing original content on shorts. And that means politicians, like everyone else who is tapping into clipping, are going to need to evolve their strategies to make sure those videos are still reaching people. But OK, moving on to Reddit, Ro Khanna's team told us that they see Reddit playing a bigger role in 2028, which was actually really surprising to the both of us.

48:06Jasmine Enberg: Long story short, they see Reddit as being really undertapped for politicians and that there's so many ways that they could be leaning in from, you know, AMAs, which are ask me anythings to to social listening. Here's Marie again. You know what I think might be a bigger force in 28 than in 24 is Reddit. Our team has been really interested in Reddit. It's like Bernie Sanders's team had used it during some of his elections and they used it really well. But I don't think that many other politicians have really cracked the code on it. They did a lot of ask me anythings. We've done some of those just posting and in the right groups.

48:52Ro has a Reddit account that we use. So thinking through, I think like the best uses of Reddit is important. Have people been receptive? Like what have been the comments? There's so many like state politics groups on there and different niches that you can post in. So it's very useful in that way.

49:13Jasmine Enberg: Okay. So we go on to talk about how Reddit also is not just for posting and connecting with people, but also gauging the mood and the vibes and what people are talking about. Brands are also still figuring out Reddit right now, but even if they're not on it, they should be using it to understand what people are saying about them. And that really translates to politics too. So Marie had some additional thoughts on that as well. Definitely. And you have to be really careful, too, because people on Reddit don't want to be spammed. Like part of what people like is it's like real people just like asking questions and getting actual answers.

49:46And so I do think that in part is why some politicians and brands struggle to use it is because it has to be authentic. You have to plug in in an interesting way. Okay, finally moving on to data and AI. This is already starting to happen, but experts expect it to become even bigger and more advanced in 2028. So Axios wrote about this back in April, but politicians, especially on the Republican side, are basically building synthetic audiences that model real behaviors of groups they want to reach to test out messages. And the right seems to be embracing this tool much more than the left, who has been kind of more resistant to AI generally.

50:21So what Axios reported is that GOP strategists are using AI to basically quickly simulate voters' attitudes toward events like the Iran war and to scan millions of social media apps to understand real-time trends and public opinion. And in the future, AI agents could be interacting with voters by phone to try to persuade them to vote for GOP candidates.

50:41Jasmine Enberg: Yeah, I mean, it is absolutely wild to think about what's coming. Then on the Democratic side, like you said, many more of them are wary of privacy risk. They've been slow to adopt it in campaigns. And on the one hand, I mean, I totally understand this wariness, but I think they also need to learn their lesson from 2024. It just feels like Republicans are living in 2048 and Democrats just cannot keep up at this point. And Axios actually had some really interesting data on this, too. They had a survey from the American Association of Political Consultants, which found that 64 % of Republican consultants used AI daily in their work compared to 49 % of Democrats.

51:18Jasmine Enberg: So clearly, you know, Republicans are ahead here as well. So much for us to keep an eye on. And of course, we also heard that podcasts will still be big in 2028, though some of the novelty may have worn out. So there will definitely be other strategies too. For example, some candidates have been going on Jubilee Media's YouTube show to debate voters to try to win them over. So who knows what other surprising things. We'll see. Thanks so much for tuning in, and we'll see you here next Thursday.