The Art and Science of the YouTube Thumbnail

0:00Jasmine Enberg: Hi, everyone. This is Scalable, a weekly show about the business of the creator economy. I'm Kaya Yurieff. And I'm Jasmine Enberg. Every Thursday, we take you beyond the headlines to tell you what's happening, what it means, and why it matters. We've been so surprised to keep hearing over and over again this year how many brands and big creators still haven't cracked YouTube. YouTube can feel really intimidating. And there's also just so much conflicting advice about YouTube out there. One area that has come up a lot as creators and brands are thinking about YouTube, and it's also very top of mind for us personally, so that's packaging.

0:34YouTube thumbnails are kind of everything.

0:36Jasmine Enberg: YouTube thumbnails are the bane of my existence. I feel like everyone is doing YouTube face where they have a shocked facial expression, their mouth and eyes are slightly open, and it just pains us to do this. We cannot bring ourselves to do it. Later in the show, we're also joined by Hudson Matter. When you were 13, you made one change to your dad, Jordan Matters' YouTube channel that increased daily views from 1 million to 3 million. Can you walk us through the mechanics of the change that you made back then?

1:10Jasmine Enberg: Hi, Jasmine. Hi, Kaya. And hi, everyone. Welcome to Scalable, our weekly show about the business of the creator economy. It's hard to believe, but it's been 20 years since YouTube launched. What's even harder to believe is that some brands and even some of the biggest creators are only just now thinking about their platform and their strategy there. So much so that YouTube has come up in every single one of our 50 episodes so far. And we're not just talking once per episode. YouTube has been mentioned more than a thousand times across our show. And that's far more than TikTok, which was mentioned nearly 660 times, or Instagram, which was mentioned 413 times.

1:46And as more people are now watching YouTube the way that they do TV, one of the things that has come up repeatedly is whether brands need to have their own original show on YouTube. Here's what Zach Bloom, the co-founder and president of Portal A, said when we asked him that question. Portal A is a production company that makes original YouTube content primarily for brands, including those like Toyota and Target. Do you think that every single brand needs a YouTube show now? No, no, definitely not. But if you imagine a world where every brand was making a YouTube show, I think audiences would fatigue of that.

2:21I don't think that's a world that I want to live in either. That said, Zach does go on to say that even if brands don't need to have their own show on YouTube, they do need to have a YouTube strategy. That also has to go beyond buying paid ads on the platform. And a big part of that, of course, means working with creators. Yeah, and that's happening as more creators are also leaning more into YouTube. So some of them are launching shows made specifically for the platform, like Alex Earl's Get Real With Me series and Alex Cooper's reality competition show on Wellwinter Games. Others are building full digital media studios and networks.

2:52And YouTube has long been the most generous when it comes to paying creators directly, and it's the platform creators most often tell us they want to build their businesses on. And since we've been hearing that for years, we've been so surprised to keep hearing over and over again this year how many brands and big creators still haven't cracked YouTube. I think a big part of the challenge is that YouTube can feel really intimidating. I mean, one, it is enormous. And two, it is so many different things to different people. And there's also just so much conflicting advice about YouTube out there.

3:23I also think there's a lot of brands, companies, investors and other business people who just don't watch YouTube, at least not regularly. And you can't fully understand the platform if you're not using it. Here's Stephanie Patrick, YouTuber and former owner of Theorist Media on that. You actually have to watch the platform to understand. You have to understand who this channel is getting suggested against, what the business strategies are of this competitive set, and how ingrained one channel is in a community versus, you know, hey, is this just a community that's sort of transient and kind of bounces off of channels?

3:59So Stephanie was talking specifically about investors and buyers, but I think that applies to any business that wants to be on YouTube. So today we're going to start to bring together what we've learned from brands, creators, and YouTube execs themselves, and also what we've learned

4:13Jasmine Enberg: ourselves in our first year of being on YouTube. Obviously, we can't get to everything in one episode. So we're going to focus on one area that has come up a lot as creators and brands are thinking about YouTube, whether they're developing their own show or not. And it's also very top of mind for us personally. So that's packaging, meaning things like titles, description, aesthetics, especially whether thumbnails actually matter, which is a very big topic of debate. Here's Don Lemon, the former TV news anchor who has built his independent media business around YouTube on that. How do you deal with YouTube thumbnails and titles?

4:45Because to us, you know, coming from journalism backgrounds, it feels like clickbait. We don't want to be clickbaiting, but you have to kind of play the game. Okay, so let me tell you, I felt that too. But the thing is, is that that's just what draws them in. Later in the show, we're also joined by Hudson Matter, who helped his dad, Jordan Matter, grow his YouTube channel to 38 million subscribers. He also launched his own YouTube consulting agency. Hudson's dad and sister Salish also recently signed a deal with Netflix. But first, let's talk about what makes YouTube so hard for brands and creators.

5:16YouTube is just a totally different animal than TikTok or Instagram, with the exception of shorts. And the barrier to entry has just always been higher on YouTube. You need to create longer form content that's higher quality. You need a proper camera and more advanced editing skills. And you also need to know how to tell a story and capture people's attention for 20 minutes, 30 minutes, or even an hour, not just 30 seconds. I would go even further to say that YouTube is its own animal period. I mean, obviously the mantra now is that YouTube is a new TV, but it definitely isn't the TV that we knew and grew up with, nor is it the TV that we get from Netflix, though, of course, they're starting to look more alike.

5:55And like we've talked about before, and we mentioned a little bit at the top of the episode, it is so many different things to different people. And that makes it really hard for brands too, in terms of both strategy and budgeting. If you consider it a social network, a search engine, a digital video platform, or something else, I mean, where does the budget come from? Who owns the strategy? I mean, these are all questions that brands are asking internally right now. Yeah. And all of this means that brands have to treat YouTube as a totally different thing. Luka Dukic, the VP of content marketing for the Chicago Bulls, said that the team actually treats YouTube as its own content pillar.

6:30And it's one of the team's top five priorities for 2026. Here's what he said. We have five like content organizational goals that like all of content, all 30 people are like meant to be kind of like working towards. And one of them is like our long form strategy on YouTube. And this is the first year that we've sort of refocused on that. So that means testing. That means like, what are we using for titles and thumbnails to kind of draw people in? How are we structuring videos to kind of keep them? What is the storytelling that we're doing? Okay, that is a perfect segue onto our main topic for today.

7:00How much do thumbnails actually matter on YouTube? Here's how Portal A's Zach Bloom put it to us. YouTube thumbnails are kind of everything. We put so much work into the videos and the content that we make, but we know that the thumbnail is almost like the gatekeeper for whether people will actually watch. So the amount of time you need to put into thumbnails, you need to treat them almost like the movie poster. And if you make a bad movie poster, people are not going to be interested. So we put an unbelievable amount of time, rounds and rounds and rounds and rounds and rounds of revision before production.

7:34We are mapping out what the thumbnail looks like and shooting for the thumbnail on set. So they are very, very important. Still, there is a lot of debate over this. There's also a lot of disagreement over what makes a good thumbnail and whether you have to be clickbaity to succeed on YouTube and effectively grab attention. So we've gotten advice like only have one of you in the thumbnail because people's eyes are naturally more drawn to a thumbnail when it has only one person. When there are two or three people or it's just too busy, people don't know naturally where to look. So I think there's definitely something to that, but we have ignored that advice.

8:08We are co-hosts and both should be on there. And we also see plenty of other YouTubers who have more than one person in their thumbnail. The other thing that we've heard is that we need to add more depth to our design, which I definitely agree with. Our thumbnails are quite flat. I would say we've ignored a lot of the advice that we've gotten so far. But overall, YouTube thumbnails are the bane of my existence. I think my personal take after hearing everybody's opinions is that thumbnails are important, but only to an extent, especially for us when we're speaking to a business audience. Like, I get that you need to have a strong thumbnail in order to draw people in.

8:43But if the content isn't good, people aren't going to come back no matter how amazing your thumbnail is. So I would rather focus my energy on making a great show rather than spending hours trying to perfect a thumbnail. And I think, you know, the same rule of thumb kind of applies when you're thinking about everything when it comes to packaging and production of a YouTube video, including things like whether you have a full studio setup or if you're recording remotely from your living room or hotel room like you are right now, Kaia. I mean, you have the Stephen Bartlett's and the Alex Cooper's of the world with their professional studios and their Hollywood quality production.

9:21But then you also have shows like Giggly Squad, where they're often recording from home and the video is kind of blurry. They have some weird angles. They're also holding handheld pink mics, which I actually love.

9:32Jasmine Enberg: And people love the show and they keep tuning in. No, it's so true. And they just landed a huge deal with Sirius XM. So it's obviously resonating. And it's the same for me outside of podcasting, right? Like I watch very lo-fi videos of people on Reels or TikTok just like talking to camera in their car, walking on the street with absolutely no production quality. But if it's entertaining or interesting, I don't really care about the aesthetics and I'll watch it. that being said, though, I would still say that the vast majority of people have told us that thumbnails are quite important, at least for initially drawing people in to watch your video in the first place.

10:03I mean, obviously, to your point, the content has to be good for people to keep watching and coming back. But if your thumbnail title description don't grab people, it doesn't matter how good the video is if no one clicks it or watches it. But as we've talked more to more and more people about this from YouTube experts to advisors and creators, I'm just realizing how much psychology and thought goes into all of this. I mean,

10:23Jasmine Enberg: never have I personally thought this deeply about thumbnails. Never did I think we would think this deeply about thumbnails. But yeah, in many ways, the psychology is also unique to YouTube. That's why there is a whole cottage industry of people who are literally paid sometimes in tens of thousands of dollars a month to give this advice, which is also something that you need to keep in mind when you're evaluating it. Yeah, the price tags of some of these advisory services. I mean, even higher for brands, they definitely charge up the wazoo. But it's not just the cottage industry of YouTube experts, but there are also thumbnail designers as well.

10:58And that's probably why in 2025, Mr. Beast got a ton of backlash when he promoted an AI thumbnail generator as part of his analytics service ViewStats. And creators were mad about the tool taking work away from people. And pretty quickly, he ended up pulling the tool and then added a way for creators to connect with human thumbnail designers to work with. And it's interesting because YouTube has had A-B testing of thumbnails for a while now, and it just announced ways to use AI to generate thumbnails as part of its recent Made on YouTube event. YouTube will also recommend the best three options to different segments of a creator's audience.

11:31So things are just getting much more kind of specialized, but you didn't really hear much backlash to any of those tools from YouTube. No, at least not yet. And I think in Mr. B's case, people were also really worried about whether AI would steal other people's ideas. And we haven't tried YouTube's version yet. But if it uses just the video to generate those thumbnails, I feel like it could be less controversial and potentially even more useful, though. I don't know how good those thumbnails are going to be, because if shorts are any indicator, YouTube picks the absolute worst possible stills for our first frames on shorts.

12:05Jasmine Enberg: It's wild. And their explanation when we've complained about this is they're like, well, like thumbnails don't really matter on shorts. But I think that's changing because obviously it has started to matter more on Instagram. But also Riverside does this after we stop recording our podcast. Like it cannot be that hard to pick a still image where someone's mouth is not gaping open or making a face that I didn't even know that I could make. Yeah. And it's not just about us. Like we want our guests to look good, too. Like we both think a lot about that French show with the really amazing lighting.

12:35I mean, every celebrity wants to go on that show because they just look so good. But obviously, there's more to a thumbnail than lighting. And a lot of creators really take their YouTube thumbnails very seriously as well. So there's John Yushai. He's a YouTuber who also used to work both at YouTube and Instagram in product marketing. And he has a public Discord where creators can get feedback on their thumbnails.

12:57Jasmine Enberg: It's like they're literally studying it and learning from each other. We should honestly think about joining that Discord if we can. We need to. We need some feedback. But Kim Larson, who's the global head of creators at YouTube, said this is pretty much exactly what big creators do. I mean, she called them students of the business and said that they are constantly testing and learning. Mark, Michelle, like any of Dar, I mean, they have been at this for so long. They've honed her craft. They've also test and learned. They're students of the business. They know their analytics better than anyone.

13:30Average video duration, retention, audience statistics. You can't be a YouTuber if you don't lean in and really understand the, you know, the very inner workings of your business. Anyway, what else is interesting is that thumbnails really aren't as important on other platforms like take Spotify. Thumbnails really just don't matter as much. Our thumbnail for every episode is actually the same. It's just our main podcast cover art. And there it's really more about the title and the description. And so what we've been told on Spotify is that it's really important that your title and your description reflect what you want people to take away from the episode.

14:05So it's not just what the episode is about, but what the key learning or the takeaway is. And none of this, of course, is to say that titles and descriptions don't matter on YouTube. They definitely do. But also what works in a title on YouTube is very different than what works in a title on Spotify sometimes. So here's how Don Lemon explained it to us. The thumbnail or the title that I will use for YouTube is not necessarily the title I'm going to use for Substack or Spotify or iHeartRadio or Apple Podcasts or whatever I'm on. I'm not going to use that because those people are more sort of traditional and even in some ways more they read more.

14:44Right. Okay. I don't know if people on Spotify or iHeart are reading more than people on YouTube. But what he's saying does sort of support the argument that titles and descriptions are more important on Spotify than a thumbnail image. Yeah, we've mostly been using kind of the same title across platforms with the exception of YouTube, where our titles are often slightly more dramatic. So a lot of the real reason or actually seems to work really well there. Some of our recent YouTube titles have included How Big is Mr. Beast's Business Really with really in all caps and the real reason more creators are retiring.

15:20Jasmine Enberg: Yeah, I mean, YouTube loves the drama. They also love a listicle. There's a lot of, you know, three things I learned about so-and-so topic. But I think the other thing to think about on YouTube is keywords. YouTube is often referred to as being a search engine, especially for Gen Z. I mean, search engines historically run on keywords. And obviously, that's now changing because of AI. And there's some disagreement over how much keywords actually matter on YouTube. But broadly speaking, what I would say is that they're less important than they used to be. What experts have told us is that YouTube might use keywords in the very beginning after you upload a video to understand what it's all about.

15:56But after some time, you know, things like contextual clues and other metrics are much more important for recommendations, as well as showing up in search results. So there's no harm in adding keywords. But like anywhere else online, they're just not going to move the needle as much as they used to. Yeah. And we sometimes add additional keywords for SEO purposes to our newsletter description before we publish. And we do see a handful of new subscribers every week coming from Google, but it's not huge numbers. I mean, it's always something, so we'll take it, but it's worth kind of the extra effort to like throw in a few more key terms.

16:29But back to the YouTube thumbnails, we don't know what the right word for this is, but I feel like everyone is doing like YouTube face where they have a shocked facial expression, their mouth and eyes are slightly open, and it just pains us to do this. Like we cannot bring ourselves to do it. YouTube phase is exactly the right term for it. But also, I mean, it doesn't fit with our brand. It doesn't fit with our vibe. It definitely doesn't fit with our audience. We're speaking to business professionals and we need our thumbnails to reflect that even on YouTube. And that is not to say that we can't improve on our current thumbnails.

17:04They definitely need a lot of work. I mean, to your point, Kaya, they can be pretty flat. They can feel stale. But I will say. We felt very validated in our conversation with Portal A's Zach Bloom. He gave us some advice on how we should be approaching them specifically for Scalable without being clickbaity. I think you guys should stay above the fray, like maybe play a little bit into what the algorithm needs and wants. But you have a premium brand and there is a difference between kind of like the more premium side of whether it's branded content or journalism, whatever, and playing into the, you know, into the clickbait game.

17:44Okay, so we were obviously ecstatic to hear about this, but Zach also gave some advice on what works overall for YouTube thumbnails. Take a listen. I think a good thumbnail creates intrigue. It teases what a viewer is going to get without giving them the answer. It asks a question. In other words, it's visually arresting. So it immediately grabs your attention. And there's a path you could go down, which is the more kind of clickbaity version of thumbnails. But there's also a path where you're creating that intrigue while also while not kind of playing to the lowest common denominator. And that's what we try to do.

18:20To Zach's point, there's a lot of debate over how clickbaity thumbnails should be. You can probably guess where we fall on that discussion. But one area that people seem to largely agree on is that if you do lean into clickbait, the video should live up to it. I think the problem is, is that most videos don't live up to the title, though, when it's clickbait, you like that. And I think of it very similarly to like news sites in the 2010s that were popping up that had those insane headlines.

18:45Jasmine Enberg: And then the article basically had nothing to do with that at all. No, it's true. And also not everyone has the budget of Mr. Beast to pull off these crazy stunts. And he arguably was the one who kicked off this whole clickbaity dramatic era of YouTube in the first place. But at least the former traditional journalists agree. The longtime broadcaster turned YouTuber Piers Morgan put it this way on stage with me at a podcasting conference in London in May. He said, if you're going to tease, you've got to deliver. Yeah. And as you heard at the top of the episode, Don Lemon has a very similar philosophy.

19:16And he also admitted, which felt really good, actually, is that thumbnails felt weird to him at first, too. You have to stand out because YouTube is the biggest television network of the biggest. Yeah, it's television and streaming or whatever in the world. So you have to stand out. So we quickly had to realize this is what we have to do in order to survive. It has to be clickbaity. So we come up with the most clickbaity things that we think are acceptable. What's an example?

19:40Jasmine Enberg: Yeah, how do you shrink the balance? It's a lot of like, how big is this business really? Or three things you wouldn't believe. in all caps. Every once in a while, like, the Republican Party will say things that they don't agree with with Donald Trump. And we'll say, well, what do we say? And I said, I don't know. Did the Republican Party, did Republicans just tell Donald Trump to F off today? And they'll go, yeah, he did. I said, okay, put it on the thumbnail. Is this a new muscle for you, though? Like, did you have to learn this? Yeah, it feels weird. It feels so antithetical to what you... I mean, it was weird at first to see myself on the thumbnail going.

20:14A facial expression. Yeah, Yeah, but then, you know, when all of a sudden it's, you know, you get a couple hundred thousand people, you're like, okay. But the thing is, is that that's just what draws them in. Once they get there, they're going to get the information. But in order to get them there, you have to be a little bit hyperbolic and a little bit outrageous. So we still aren't going as far as Piers Morgan and Todd Lemon are with our thumbnails. But I'm also relieved that we're not alone and feeling this way. Okay, now it's time for our interview with Hudson Matter, who launched his own company, Next Wave Media, in 2024.

20:48The company focuses on helping A-list celebrities, creators, and brands grow their YouTube channels. He was surprisingly candid and actually told us the equity breakdowns his YouTube consulting agency takes and why he picked this particular business model versus working on a retainer. He also told us why he doesn't think exclusive deals are worth it for most YouTubers. And that comes just after his dad and sister, Jordan and Salish Matter, signed a non-exclusive deal with Netflix. Hudson, we are so excited to have you on Scalable. Welcome. Thank you. So you started on YouTube helping your dad, Jordan Matter, with his channel when you were just a teen.

21:25And he and your sister recently struck a deal with Netflix as well, which brought in 29 million viewers for Netflix, which is amazing, just behind Mark Rober's Crunch Labs. So we want to dig into all of this with you. But first, you know, curious, because you do have your own social media following as well, but you seem to be doing more on the strategy and management side. So why did you go that route versus going the creator route yourself? So I've always wanted to build a business. The reason I got into YouTube originally was to build a company. When I was younger, all my friends were into YouTube.

21:55And so I started my first channel is called Savage Matters. Please don't look it up. The videos were awful. I started out when I was, I want to say 11. And I was with one of my hometown friends. And then it didn't really work at all, but I was just having fun. And I kind of fell in love with it. And then my dad was a photographer at the time. He was doing like dance photography. and I was like, hey, this could make an interesting YouTube channel. And so I was like, hey, you should start a channel. And then it started to do well. And then I started my real channel when I was 13. And I built that to, you know, 2 million plus subscribers, 300 million views.

22:27I'm obsessed with the data side of things and the analytics and how you can really grow channels. And so I started working with a bunch of top creators just for free, just consulting them and saying, hey, here's how you can improve viewership, improve retention, have a better sales ratio. It seems like a lot of brands and celebrities really need a YouTube channel. So why not sell it? And so I did that. And I've kind of been doing that for the last year and a half. No, it's amazing. I mean, that's one of the things we hear all the time now is that more brands and media companies are trying to figure out their YouTube strategy.

22:56So with that in mind, let's talk a little bit more about your agency, NextWave. So can you kind of walk us through this model and why you decided to work this way with creators? To kind of give you an overview, the way we charge is essentially we have two different main avatars. So that would be brands who are looking to build on YouTube. and then mainstream talent. So that's like A-list celebrities or entrepreneurs who want to build an audience to sell their products. We're developing more into thought leaders in the space. And on the talent side, for the majority of them, we actually charge based on an AdSense split or an equity split.

23:30So essentially the way it would work is we only take super high level clientele who we know will succeed. Because I think what a lot of agencies that I've seen get wrong is that they'll focus a lot on, okay, how do we get the most amount of customers possible and charge retainers? which definitely works. But for me, my main goal is, okay, how can I spend as much time as I possibly can with each client? And so I want to make sure that they have a ton of potential on YouTube and that there's big upside for both of us. And I think that it can get very transactional when it's, you know, if I'm charging hourly or on a monthly retainer, instead, if I say, okay, I'll charge based on results, then we're both in it together.

24:04And we're both motivated. So either if we're taking a channel from scratch, or like we just signed on Patrice Ever, who's a big, He was the captain of Manchester United and the France national team. They were huge on social media. And for him, it's like, OK, we're going to upfront the cost and then take a percentage of equity. So if the channel fails, next wave fails as well. And so that's kind of the standard I want to set. With brands, it's a little bit different because the main goal for them isn't necessarily viewership as much as it is brand identity and getting the word out there that they exist or selling a specific product, reaching a younger audience, all of that.

24:37And so that's harder to measure. So usually there we will charge retainers. But on the talent side, it's pretty much all equity deals. On the talent side, you know, you talked about it a little bit, but what are you looking for when working with talent? I feel like in the early days, it was all about kind of the subscriber count. But now social media has changed so much. But do you look at niches, engagement? What are the key factors that tell you like this person is going to be successful? There's a variety of different factors we look at. The majority of them are, OK, are they like A-listers, right?

25:05So if you take someone like, I don't know, Dwayne Johnson, for example, huge, everyone knows who this person is. Even if he doesn't post super consistently on YouTube, you kind of know if he starts a channel, it's going to do well. The other option is someone who maybe isn't as well known, but posting consistently. But there are many things that we can improve because we want to come on and be able to provide a ton of value immediately. And so we're looking at one channel, I can't say who, but very big, you know, 5 million plus subscribers, I think. And, you know, has been a very prominent figure on social media.

25:34But they average, you know, 20 ,000 views video and they post, you know, every day. And so we can kind of come in pretty immediately and be like, all right, here's a ton of value we can provide. Here's how you change your thumbnails. Here's how you change your scripts. Here's how you can increase viewer retention. And we'll do that on the beginning and then be like, hey, if you want to work with us on a consistent basis, you can, you know, bring us on for an equity split. The main thing is, is there a an actual interest in YouTube? And you need to kind of make sure that there's a significant effort there, because I had one conversation with a client, um, of like almost a year ago now.

26:05And he kind of told me in the beginning, he was like, Hey, I want to do this. I'm interested in YouTube, but I have so much stuff going on. And I, you know, I don't want to spend a lot of time on this. Can you guys handle most of everything? And I, you know, kind of messed up and I was like, yeah, of course. And then what ended up happening is we started working with him and viewership took a very long time to take off. And a big reason for that was because the time effort spent by the creator himself was like, okay, well, I only have two hours a month to dedicate this. So then we're rushing. We want to post weekly and it's not going to work.

26:35Are they posting consistently currently? And will they continue that effort into YouTube as well as being, you know, an A-list celebrity who we as the team have confidence that they can succeed over time? Are there any downsides to this model? I mean, obviously you're mitigating some of the risk already because of the vetting process, making sure these creators are posting consistently, also making sure they're, well-known names, but are there any other risks associated with going this route versus the more traditional agency business model where you're getting paid upfront for deals? No, I think it's perfect.

27:08No, I'm just kidding. Yes, of course. I think the biggest thing is that if we spend, let's say 5K a month on a channel and it generates 20K, but our split is, we barely break even or we don't break even, obviously that's a huge risk. And so I honestly think that to kind of transition a little bit, the next way we'll succeed over time is on the brand side. The issue is brands obviously take because it's significant, you know, B2B and we're going for high enterprise brands who are, you know, do$10 billion or more in revenue. Like it takes a lot longer to sign those. And so we almost use the celebrities as case studies.

27:43That being said, on the talent side, the only way to avert that risk is by continuing to do it and, you know, develop, okay, what does this avatar look like? that so that we know, okay, if we're going to bring on this person, we know that we have a bunch of data that would prove if they'd succeed. And how many clients or how many creators are you working with right now? And how do they kind of respond to this kind of a business model? Like, are they happy to give up equity in exchange for, you know, the services that they get? Yeah. So we've worked with over six different celebrities slash talent.

28:14And I think we actually started with a model that the majority of other people do, which is a retainer plus like they put up a lot of the production budget. So let's say it costs, you know, eight grand a month to produce the videos, then they would put that budget up and then we charge a strategy fee and then maybe like a very small percentage of AdSense. And we got turned down a lot because a lot of these and, you know, lay you in a little secret, which you guys probably know, which is that a lot of celebrities expect stuff for free. And so especially in business or like with products, So, you know, they're constantly getting things sent to them and all that, which, you know, makes sense.

28:49But I think the main issue is that when you get to that point of, OK, now I have to sell them. You need to make sure that they know that you are risk averse and that you are you want to go in with them and you care about their channel long term. And so I think that usually they've responded a lot more positively than when I was charging just a retainer. We used to work a lot with top creators just on my own. And what I realized is it's a lot harder to provide immediate value with them because with talent, we can kind of do anything and it's easier to charge an equity model. And so therefore, if it succeeds long term, so does Next Wave.

29:27That's kind of why we decided to go like the talent route instead of more so into the creator route. And is the equity stake variable or do you have a standard rate? Yeah, I can range anywhere from like, I think the lowest is 20 % and they can go all the way to like 45%. so we want them to obviously own the majority so that they can make all the decisions and stuff but usually usually if we're starting a channel we can negotiate higher if they already have one it'll probably be on the lower end can you give a sense of who's on your roster or is that super secret yeah i could say a few so we have a few of them are secret obviously but um we have the professor who's a basketball creator he's been in a ton of movies been in the game for a long time um we have patrice ever who i had mentioned earlier big soccer captain we're developing his channel now.

30:10So the first video should hopefully go live in a week. I've been saying that for a while, but hopefully first video go live in a week. And then we have a few others, a few others in like negotiation who I can't, can't necessarily share yet, but I will, you know, come back on and assuming this pod does well. Pressure is on Hudson. So let's take a little bit deeper into YouTube strategy, because when you were 13, you made one change to your dad, Jordan Matters, YouTube channel that increased daily views from 1 million to 3 million. And for context for our listeners, many of whom are trying to figure out their YouTube strategies and grow their channels, Jordan Matters channel now has close to 38 million subscribers.

30:47So Hudson, can you walk us through the mechanics of the change that you made back then? It kind of goes back into something I see a lot of creators get wrong now, which is that basically what happened is my dad, he had been making those photography videos that I had mentioned. and he started decreasing viewership. You know, maybe he got half a million views here, 300 ,000 views, you know, a few months later, it was kind of slowly decreasing. And he talked to me and he was like, hey, I don't know what's going on. And I'm, you know, a 13, 14 year old kid. I mean, hypothetically, I don't know. And this was before kind of what I would call like the Mr.

31:20Beastification of YouTube. And what I told him is I was like, hey, the best creators can expand their lane. If you make the same type of content super consistently, no one will watch over time because they get bored. If you expand too quickly, people also won't watch because that's not what they clicked on for. So you have to slowly expand your lane. Now, what's a good example of that? So in this case, he was making, you know, dance photography videos and he did this thing called the 10 minute photo challenge. And so he would basically work with all these like crazy, like acrobats and dancers and do like different challenges.

31:54He did that every week for like two years and it started dying off. But if you transition to what he was doing now, which is, you know, what is really doing well, which is videos with his daughter, those are doing super, super, super well. But it's like way different than those photography videos, way different audience base. So instead, try to go down the middle, try to bridge the gap. There were a lot of challenge based stuff doing well. So I was like, why don't you find extreme acrobats and then come up with interesting formats to photograph them in compared to just doing the same 10 minute photo challenge.

32:21He took my advice and instead of doing, you know, a crazy 10 minute photo challenge, he was like, all right, why don't I do a video titled, I'm forgetting the exact title, but it was like extreme acrobat does, you know, 10 moves in XYZ time. And then that video ended up being his most viewed video in, you know, one week period up to that point. And then he's like, okay, this has a whole new different, you know, different format. Now he could have kept doing 10 minute photo challenges and like slowly died. And so that's kind of the main piece of advice I gave him. And I would suggest that for up and coming creators, which is like, focus as much as you can on how do I consistently expand this lane without it being too wide appealing, but slowly expand it and try to reach those new audiences.

33:01And you've also said that, you know, TikTok and Instagram are kind of the wrong bet for video because YouTube videos keep generating value over time when others don't. And we've seen this so much, right? Where like videos from years ago can still rack up new views. This is something that is reflected in research as well. Agentio found that 40 % of views and 30 % of clicks happen after a YouTube video has been live for at least 30 days, which if you think about like Instagram reels and TikTok, it's like you never see that content again normally. But what are kind of the best practices for brands that want to spend on YouTube and kind of get the best ROI, keeping all that in mind where older videos can do well too?

33:38You're never going to make or get as many eyes on your product or your brand on a short social media video. I bet you, you can't remember the last TikTok you watched before you closed down that. But you definitely can remember the last YouTube video you watched if it was good. And the reason for that is, you know, an audience member is spending 15, 20 minutes with you rather than 30 seconds. But to actually scale that and to actually give it a lasting impact, you kind of have to go to YouTube. And so the issue is no one who these brands are hiring, like the internal social teams, they usually don't know how to do that.

34:12And they don't know how to actually build a successful channel because it's a totally different game. There's so many different numbers that go into it. It's a streaming platform, right? And it's bigger than all the top dogs that most people would think of. So, okay, how do brands actually build on YouTube? The way I usually think about it is a three-step process. One is identifying who your audience base is. So what is your target demo? Now, a lot of brands I've noticed want to hit that younger audience. So let's say like Home Depot, for example, they would want to make sure that for Gen Z and Gen Alpha, when they're coming up and now they need to go to different hardware stores, they want to make sure they have some emotional connection to Home Depot.

34:48I'm just speaking hypothetically here. But if we were to sign with them, we'd be like, okay, how can we make content that's dedicated to them? Now, the second part of that equation is you can't just make videos about your products because how is that going to expand to a wide audience? Why are younger audiences going to care? So you almost have to think of an overall mission statement that you want your channel to be about. One channel I have consulted on a little bit is Emco Beauty. And one thing that they're very good at on social media is they kind of have this idea of we dupe luxury for everyone.

35:15Okay, if I were to work with them, how can we make that a lot more like relevant and come up with really, really cool ideas around that mission statement that aren't super, super specific to the brand, but still can, you know, be essentially like sponsored by them. And so another example is one idea I've wanted Tinder to do or any dating app, honestly, is, you know, just a live dating show. They can easily integrate their products or new app updates into it. And it's proven to work on YouTube. You know, if you look at most brands' channels, it's like, obviously, the titles and thumbnails are awful.

35:48And, you know, it's really tough for them to do that. But, you know, beyond just like the tactical stuff, it's like they don't really know what the channel theme is because it's so much different than creating a social, like a short social media video. So I am going to disagree with you a little bit on what you said about ads and how people don't form emotional connections to them. I think you absolutely can form an emotional connection to an ad. I mean, just think about, you know, the Coca-Cola Christmas ads that come every year that people either love or hate, like the one that used AI last year or maybe it was the year before.

36:19And it wouldn't have sparked so much debate and controversy if people really didn't have an emotional connection to those ads to begin with. That said, I mean, the ads have to be good, right, in order for them to really form that connection with people. And I think part of the problem is, is that what works on, you know, traditional channels doesn't always translate to YouTube. It also doesn't translate to TikTok and Instagram. So if you kind of like zoom out and think about this landscape, what are brands getting wrong on YouTube and what are they getting right? It's a fantastic question. And I think you're totally right.

36:51I like I think that if you create a really cool ad, obviously people are going to care. That being said, I think my biggest argument against it is is not the ads are bad in the first place. It's more so that why are brands spending, you know, billions of dollars on them and not delegating, you know, a couple million dollars a year to a successful YouTube channel when the upside can be so significant and comparable to ads. Because again, it's, you're not playing the game of, can I get more eyes? We were going to work with a few politicians, actually. I can't say who, but I had talked to the guy, you know, representing them.

37:22And I was, I was pitching our services. And I was like, well, one thing he said is like, okay, well, why would we spend, you know, a bunch of money on a YouTube channel? And we could just keep pouring our campaign dollars into ads. And I was like, your goal is to get this person elected. And the way they would do that is by caring about them. And they're not going to care about them by any more, you know, this video was sponsored by Donald Trump campaign. Or like, no one's going to care about that anymore. You know, no matter how much like fear or excitement you think you can instill in someone in an ad, the way you can really, really do that is through YouTube.

37:50So can we delegate some of that cost and invest it into YouTube for such a significant ROI on what you'd be investing? One of my favorite avatars to go after is sports companies. We just did a channel breakdown on NASCAR, for example. And I think what NASCAR, as an example, or like any NFL team, NBA team does really well is they have all this influx of content. And then they're just they post it all to YouTube. The full breakdowns of the games and, you know, the announcers and all that kind of stuff. I think the issue that they run into is, OK, we have all of this content. We just don't know how to, like, package it.

38:20Right. We don't know how to make this actually interesting for that, you know, next generation of viewers who are watching YouTube and, you know, want to be entertained. And they don't know how to do it because they don't fully know how to package this content directed toward them. I will agree with you that, you know, prices for traditional ads, especially around things like the Super Bowl, like are totally exorbitant. And there are, you know, a lot of times better places for these brands to be spending their ad dollars. And YouTube is definitely, definitely one of those spots. But I don't think it's one or the other.

38:48And I don't think you do either. It's about convergence, which speaking of which one trend that we've also been following this year is Netflix striking deals with YouTube creators. And in the early part of the year, a lot of these deals, admittedly, they were with podcasters, but they were exclusive, meaning that these creators or podcasters couldn't publish their shows on YouTube. Jordan and Salish also struck a deal with Netflix around that time. But it seems like they got kind of a happy medium, right, where the new programming is exclusive to Netflix, but they can still publish on YouTube.

39:20So where do you stand on this kind of exclusivity versus everywhere debate? Do you think it's a good idea to take an exclusive deal from a streamer like Netflix? Definitely not. Oh. I think that in terms of exclusivity, I mean, I love Netflix. I love that they need a bunch of catalog to fill and that they decided to go with creators because I think it's a long time coming. And I think that they're realizing that the next, the future of content is through those creators who they're spending time with, right? But I do think that most creators would realize that the majority of their revenue over time and brand identity will come from YouTube.

39:55And so whether that's YouTube AdSense, whether that's brand deals, whether that's the products they can launch from that, YouTube is the place to be. And so I think that creators, if they are offered, you know, an exclusive deal, probably it makes sense. Again, I don't know the specific case. Obviously, I offered, you know,$20 million, like do your thing. But I think that in general, it makes more sense to be focused on either just YouTube or some middle ground. I think that the catalog deals that Netflix is doing is fantastic. I think, again, for both the creator, because that justifies them into more of the mainstream world, which Netflix is in that a lot of people don't consider YouTube in, which I think could bring them a lot more opportunity.

40:34So I think for that, it's great. But in the majority of the case, I think it's better if they're focused on at least YouTube for the majority of the way. And I've talked to my dad about that, too, who obviously you mentioned did the deal. And he, you know, his number one focus is on YouTube, like 80%, 90 % of his day is with his team working on like the creative vision of next week's video. And so he knows that the majority of the revenue that he'll bring in for the rest of his career will come from that. And so I think that it makes most sense to focus your attention there. Unless, you know, you have bigger goals.

41:06You want to be an actor, like, and that's your, you know, stepping stone. Yes. But in general. And I think also what we're seeing is that so many YouTubers now, the production quality is so high. I mean, from the Mr. Beast to the Mark Robbers to Michelle Kare, right? And a lot of that content is really well suited for TV screens in general. YouTube is seeing huge watch time in the living room. But curious, kind of how does viewership kind of break down for your clients? And are you seeing that trend also where people are watching more content on TV screens? I mean, Instagram now has an app for smart TVs, too.

41:35Although I don't really want to watch Reels on there personally. Or shorts. We always talk about this.

41:40Jasmine Enberg: We don't believe that people are really watching shorts on TVs. Oh, 100%. And actually, I will pull this up live just based on my, I don't post anymore, but on my channel. I'm just curious to actually give you an exact number because it's huge. When did you stop posting on YouTube consistently? I stopped posting about a year and a half ago or about a year ago when I like really locked in on the business. Do you miss it at all? Yes and no. By the way, the answer is 60%. So 60 % plus of my viewership in the last year without me posting has come from TV. And for a lot of channels, it's even more.

42:12And is that on long form? Yeah, all long form on shorts. It's crazy high, too. It can be like 20 to 30 percent. I've seen, which, you know, for most people doesn't make sense because you're like, you know, on your phone, whatever. I think that, again, it goes back to YouTube beating like Netflix and other streaming platforms in terms of viewership. Like, I think that's that's huge. I think also a lot of the channels who have a lot younger based audiences have more viewership on TV because, you know, it's a lot of co-viewing and it's a lot of parents or kids watching on parental devices. And so it's like, hey, get home from school, throw it on the TV.

42:41And so when they used to watch Nickelodeon or Disney Channel, now it's YouTube. Even if you have a podcast like this, like you watch it, you know, you turn on the TV while you're cooking dinner, right? That's something I do. To answer your question, also, do I miss it? Like I miss it because I think for what I'm doing now has a lot more upside. I'm taking a lot of financial hits doing this because it's like a lot bigger of a cost investment. But I think that over time it will succeed. Most YouTubers have like a five to 10 year shelf life. But if you can build something that like lives beyond you, it has a lot more potential.

43:08I don't want like my face to always be attached to next wave media. And so again, we're in the very, very early stages of this. But I think that over time, I do think that this has like a ton more potential. And I think with YouTube, I kind of know what I would have had to do to get to that next level. And it didn't excite me as much as really starting a huge business. Tell us a little bit about the family dynamics. What has it been like to work with your dad and your sister and kind of all of you being in the YouTube space?

43:32Jasmine Enberg: And is it hard to kind of separate business and work sometimes too? I mean, people call me and Kaya sisters. We're not. We're friends, but we're not sisters. So I'm so curious what it's actually like. I actually thought we would be sisters. See, a lot of people think so. I think it's great overall. There's definitely like some things that come with that, which is like, you know, how do you balance time where you're eating dinner with family and then making sure that YouTube doesn't take over that conversation. Both my dad and I are programmed to just be, not purely, but primarily focused on work.

44:03And so I can get pretty bored easily with conversations that aren't around something work related. So it's something that connects you guys and brings you together. It's nice. Yeah. Like it's if we're just hanging out, usually the conversation will go to, you know, either business or and it's cool, too, because I'm very more, I would say, like business versed than he is. And he's more like creative than I am. And so it's we can we kind of learn from each other in that way. Like he's really, really, really good at knowing what works for his audience and honing in on that. I'm very blessed because I'm able to learn from him in that way.

44:36But then I'm also able to, I think, provide some value on more of the business side of things. And we're kind of able to work with each other in that way. So I think it's great.

44:45Jasmine Enberg: I think that is a perfect note to end on. Thank you so much, Hudson. Of course. Thank you so much for joining us today. And we'll see you back here next Thursday.

45:03Thank you.