Don Lemon on Facts, Fear and the Future of Media

0:00Jasmine Enberg: Hi, everyone. This is Scalable, a weekly show about the business of the creator economy. I'm Kaya Yurieff. And I'm Jasmine Enberg. Every Thursday, we take you beyond the headlines to tell you what's happening, what it means, and why it matters. They're going after independent voices because they've already neutered legacy media. There are no gatekeepers telling us, don't go so hard or don't ask this kind of question.

0:26Jasmine Enberg: Hi, Jasmine. Hi, Kara. And hi, everyone. Welcome to Scalable. Thank you so much for tuning into our weekly show about the business of the creator economy. This week, we sit down with Don Lemon. You probably know him from his nearly two-decade career at CNN. But like many traditional journalists, he's gone independent and is now focused on building his own show on YouTube. The Don Lemon Show now has more than a million YouTube subscribers who aren't all the same people who used to watch him on CNN. He typically goes live on his YouTube channel twice a day, mostly from his home studio, which is a very different vibe from the studio set at CNN.

0:58Jasmine Enberg: Sometimes his dogs make an appearance or he broadcasts from the road. My entire show is in the backpack that's sitting off here. I can do my show from anywhere. We spoke with Don about everything from how he built and monetizes his show to his experience being arrested in Minnesota at a protest earlier this year. They're just trying to do damage to whoever is criticizing them. And I think I was targeted. But number two, they're going after independent voices because they've already neutered legacy media. Not only did I get arrested, but they sought a search warrant for all of my YouTube and I think subscribers on other platforms.

1:32Their information, their personal information. Why do they need that?

1:36Jasmine Enberg: We also asked him what the responsibility of creators is in a world where 36 percent of American adults and 57 percent of teens get their news from news influencers at least once per day. The number one responsibility you have to your audience is to inform them. I think there is a difference between a creator and I think there's a difference between an independent journalist. And I think there's a difference between an independent media figure. But they should also be cognizant that people are getting their news from. I mean, look at Joe Rogan. People get their news from him and they believe him.

2:02We also had to get his take on what it feels like to be making YouTube thumbnails. For us, it often feels like clickbait. It is clickbait. Every once in a while, like the Republican Party will say things that they don't agree with, with Donald Trump. And we'll stay. Well, what do we say? And I said, I don't know. Did Republicans just tell Donald Trump to F off today? And they're going, yeah, he did. I said, OK, put it on the thumbnail.

2:22Jasmine Enberg: Here's our full conversation with Don Lemon, recorded in a historic heat wave in the south of France last month. Hi, Don. Welcome to Scalable. Thanks for being here. We just get it. We just start right away. We didn't get to it. Hi, Kaya. Hi, Jasmine. Is it warm enough for you? It could be a little warmer. A little warmer. Can they turn it up in here a little bit? Thanks for having me on. Thanks so much for being here. What brings you to Cannes Lions this year? It's your first year, right? Well, you guys hang out with folks like you. And it's my first year. It's crazy. And as we're taping this, it's like 180 degrees.

2:50I'm an independent, you know, media owner and host. And I wanted to see what it's about. Someone said, folks have been saying, you need to go to CanLion. And, you know, since you're doing so well. And so here I am.

3:04Jasmine Enberg: So we saw you speak at the Senate Democrats Crater Summit earlier this year. And one thing you said really stuck with us about how you had to do a lot of unlearning. Yes. So I came from traditional media. Jasmine was an analyst for a long time. So that really resonated with us. What have been the biggest things that you've had to unlearn? I'll tell you a story. I have my entire show is in the backpack that that's sitting off here. It's about this big, right? It's just a sort of a normal size backpack. I can do my show from anywhere. I can just pop it up anywhere. And I'm here at CanLion and I see some of the old school media people with these giant tripods and the big cameras.

3:37And I even I think I saw like a satellite truck out there. And I'm like, what are they doing? You don't really need that stuff. It's great if you have it. But I had to sort of unlearn that, be more nimble and to like be able to sort of change on a dime. Right. And deal with the technical issues. But I didn't have to unlearn that. I have to learn that. And then also just some sort of traditional media speak, because there's really no barrier between you. Very fewer barriers between me and the audience or you and your audience. What's an example of traditional media speak? Good evening. As we go on the air tonight, whatever.

4:08As I said, hi, I was in the chemical. No, of course you say that, but we begin with breaking news and you do all these things and all these things. The formality. The formality, and then you go to a reporter and then the reporter does a thing and then there's a question that's scripted. I just hired a reporter for my DC reporter and we'll come on and I'll ask him something. He'll go, let me just say something before we get to that. Do you know how hot it is here? And then we can do those things and then have fun and people like it. So I had to learn getting rid of the formality. It's too formal.

4:37I don't have to wear a cocktail dress. I never did. But you don't have to wear a cocktail dress. I don't have to wear a suit. I don't have to wear a tie. And that's I think people appreciate the authenticity more.

4:47Jasmine Enberg: What hasn't changed? What have you brought with you? Oh, facts and telling the truth and, you know, making sure as much as possible to say alleged reporting reported or those things. But, you know, you can do much more point of view, which I did before. But my point of view was based on, was factual and based on my point of view, my experience as a going up in America. Yeah. And so I brought that sort of built in standards and practices to this format. So that Crater Summit was also right after you had been arrested for covering an ICE protest in Minnesota. Of course. And one of the things that you said right after that was that you were arrested for something that you'd been doing for the past 30 years.

5:30which is covering the news. What does it say to you that this happened now? Well, it says to me that number one, I think I was targeted, but number two, they're going after independent voices because they've already neutered legacy media. I mean, you know, with the lawsuits, people are afraid to say things. They don't cover certain stories and they don't really lean in the way that they used to because they're afraid. And that's, that's just the truth. I have friends, many friends who work in, in legacy media and they're nervous. So we don't have to do that in independent media. There are no gatekeepers telling us, all right, you know, don't, you know, don't lean in so hard or don't go so hard or don't ask this kind of question because we need to keep a relationship with the White House or with this person who's in the administration.

6:13We don't do that. We just, we tell the truth without fear or favor and no gatekeepers. I think that's why people are turning to independent journalism than the media. To answer your question is that I think that they want to be able to they're trying to silence us as well. Not only did I get arrested, but they sought a search warrant for all of my YouTube and I think subscribers on other platforms. Their information their personal information. Why do they need that? Thankfully a judge refused two or three times if not more because they didn't need it. Why are they trying to do that? And I think that we especially in these spaces, should be covering that more, what the government is doing, shining a light on that.

6:55I don't think we do enough of that. So that's why I think they're trying to also co-opt us and silence us as well. So what was going through your mind at that moment? I mean, I imagine it's a scary situation no matter what, but when you're at a big media company like CNN, where you were previously, I mean, you have financial, you have legal support. Did you wish that you had institutional support at that moment? Well, of course, because when When you're in legacy media like that, their lawyers are your lawyers, right? Their PR person is your PR person. Their resources are your resources, not in independent media.

7:27So you have to find other ways to fight the government or whoever it is that's going after you. That's the reason that Donald Trump and Elon Musk, I don't know if you read the latest of what's happening with Media Matters and Elon Musk, is that he's suing them and he's He's suing them and he's losing their winning, but the cost of fighting and the attorney's fees, it's doing damage to them financially. When you're the richest man in the world, you don't care. You just keep spending. When you're the government, you don't run out of money. You don't care. You just keep spending. Even though the government is losing most, if not all of these losses, it doesn't matter.

8:00They're just trying to do damage to whoever is criticizing them. The process of all this is the punishment. As I said, when I was released from lockup in Los Angeles, the process is a punishment and that's what they want to do. But we have to be strong and stand. And the interesting thing to me is that the people here in independent spaces are fighting. And the folks who have all the resources in the world and legacy media are acquiescing and bending the knee to this administration. Do you think that's all of legacy media or are there like specific legacy media that you're talking about? I think pretty much it is.

8:35I mean, look at what happened with ABC, a lawsuit with George Stephanopoulos that most attorneys say they would definitely have won. I mean, just look at what's happening with CBS. They are saying they're in bed. They're friends with Donald Trump at the White House Correspondents Center. I think that week, I think they threw him like an appreciation party or at least a party to honor him. And what do you think it is? Just fear or? Yeah, they don't want to get sued. One, even though they'd win the lawsuits. Number two, they want all of their business in Washington to go through. So if you're CBS and you're in the middle of a merger, then a deal, then what are you going to do?

9:09You're going to do what the administration says or you may not get your deal. If you are, you know, any other media organization, you're trying to get something done in Washington, Warner Brothers, Discovery, Paramount, what are you going to do? You're going to do what he says because you want to get your business done. So I think it's more about money and business and making profit for the shareholders and themselves.

9:33Jasmine Enberg: Why are more and more journalists going independent? I mean, we've seen everyone from Tucker Carlson to Megyn Kelly to you. Piers Morgan has an independent media company. What's driving that? Well, I'll answer that question. The other thing is, I think that the people who are also in charge of these large media companies, their worldview is very similar to Donald Trump. So this is an excuse for them to be able to do that. and maybe for people to think that they're being pressured to do it. Why are people doing it? Well, many of us who are outspoken people, whether you agree with Megyn Kelly or not, I just certainly don't.

10:04I don't agree with hardly anything Megyn Kelly says. And I don't appreciate the type of journalism that Piers Morgan does. But I do think that they are incredible broadcasters. There is, you know, what people say, certain je ne sais quoi. You want to watch them. And I think that because of that, they have been pushed out of legacy media because they were so outspoken and because they were just so who they are. And again, whether you agree with it or not, people, you know, they're very, they're talented people. And a lot of people relate to them or relate to us because I'm sort of in that category as well.

10:39I think that even though we've been forced in these situations, we are finding more autonomy, more independence, and the possibility to make more money than we did in legacy media, especially now that the budgets are shrinking. So, yeah, and I think you're going to see more people not just, you know, forced out early. It's because legacy media is contracting. The business model is contracting. So they're going to be and people are going to get laid off. so you will see others who are going to come into this space. It ain't easy, y 'all. So get ready for it. It can be done. You have to be relentless and you have to work hard.

11:17It's hard, hard, hard work. A lot of people think, well, you know, I used to do an hour news every night or two hours live or three or whatever it is. And it's like, that ain't nothing. That's easy compared to, I know that's bad grammar. That's easy compared to the work that you have to do in order to have a sustainable, successful, and profitable independent media company.

11:37Jasmine Enberg: What have been the hardest things? What surprised you? The hardest thing is kind of similar to what I think some folks in legacy media deal with, is that you can be an independent media company and people are, brands and advertisers are nervous and sponsors are nervous about advertising around news, which to me is, it's mind-blowing because that's where every, that's where the zeitgeist is right now, everything is news. Donald Trump, fortunately or unfortunately, whatever, however you feel about him, he inserts himself into everything. He takes over whatever's in the zeitgeist. He's taking over sports.

12:11Look at what's happening with the Knicks. People are saying, oh my gosh, don't go to the White House. He shows up at the Knicks game. It's the biggest story in the country. Or he goes to a UFC fight or he has a UFC fight on the lawn of the White House. Look at what's happening with the Kennedy Center. And so it's inescapable. And I don't understand when there are so many eyes on the news and on independent media right now, why advertisers are so reluctant and hesitant to advertise around it. All of those fears that people had about, you know, being associated with this and that, Donald Trump has gotten rid of that, you know?

12:44And so if he is able to say and do such outlandish things, certainly the things that people hear about and talk about and learn about on independent media, certainly that's worth advertising around, especially in this moment where people are seeking out independent journalists and independent media talent to watch and listen and read. I think it's interesting because part of what you said about traditional media companies and how they're bending the knee to Trump, I think there's also a lot of fear among big advertisers too. I mean, there was a period of time when brands were taking big political stances or stances on social issues.

13:26And that sort of seems to have dissipated. And, you know, there's always been this fear around news and politics with advertisers because it can be unpredictable. It can be unbrand safe. And now, you know, with independent journalists and social media as their primary platform, I think that adds another layer to it. Plus then, you know, the whole political environment that we're in. But what kind of advertisers do you work with? Like, who are your top sponsors? Oh, well, I work with God so many. I work with Helix. I work with one of my favorite sponsors is the Freedom From Religion Foundation because you know as a person of faith I also realized that there's a separation of church and state and I think our country is many you know are many people have forgotten about that or they choose to ignore it I have worked with Zbiotics I work with

14:12Jasmine Enberg: Shopify Shopify are you doing ad reads I do ad reads how does that feel is that weird I'll tell you about that it is that's a very good question okay it's a Very good question. So, and who else do I work with? Incogni. I just, you know, so many of them. I thought it would be weird. And then I thought about it. And then I happened to be looking on doing research on a story about, you know, how television began. And when television started, every host of a show did their own ad reads. even during you know like I love Lucy or whether it was a sitcom or whatever there was someone who did ad reads even some of the talent some of the actors did ad reads and so it's not you know and I think that's much more authentic and more honest than someone who's sitting in a studio I never hear I never heard the ads if the ads happen to come on in my ear during a commercial break I would say can you take the ads out of my ear and I take it out because I didn't know who was sponsoring the show now I get to choose which brands I associate with and the brands get to choose who they want to associate with.

15:21But can't that be a problem too? That is problematic because I found that if you're in sort of a right-leaning outlandish or outrageous space where facts don't really matter and you can just say the most outlandish things, somehow the advertisers don't find that in this environment not brand safe, right? That's acceptable. In the sort of centrist left part of the independent media or independent journalists, they're like, oh, that's not brand safe. We have a president now who is a convicted felon. And to fear people on the left who actually tell the truth about that is just astonishing to me. And that you would be more concerned about that than folks on the right who are not seeking facts about medications, about vaccines, and on and on and on.

16:13But the thing is, is in the space, if you want to be deemed liberal or centrist or even center-right, you have to become big enough or important enough for them to ignore you. And so because I happen to have a name or name recognition from traditional media, it's hard for them to ignore me. It's hard for them to ignore me when people pick up what I say, you know, just in a monologue on my channel. It's hard for them to ignore me with a million plus subscribers on YouTube and 10 million plus, you know, on all platforms. It's hard for them to ignore me when one in three of my subscribers and viewers are in the top 10 earning percent in the country.

16:55That's hard for them to ignore. But even though they may try to, that's, it's hard for them to do it. But you're right. That can be problematic because they get to pick and choose based on their either religious affiliation or on their ideological leanings. So very good questions. You guys are good. I mean, do people talk to you about this? Do you, have you experienced any of that?

17:19Jasmine Enberg: So we cover the business of the creator economy. So we have to be careful. I think we cover YouTube meta. We want to be able to report on them fairly. So if we're going to do a partnership with them, like we have to think about that. Right. I think it's just also about disclosures and being transparent and just being thoughtful about what partners you work with. I agree. I think one of the most interesting things we've found is that now when we're interviewing high profile C-level executives, for example, they'll come back to us and say, I want you to remove this part of the conversation. And that never happened to me before.

17:49I mean, I wasn't a journalist like Kaya was, but I worked as an analyst and did a lot of TV work. I also wrote reports and I would never do that. And they would never even ask. Or they ask for questions No, I don't do that as a journalist. But the interesting thing is, do you know Ashley Sinclair? She was a conservative influencer and she was like an ambassador to Talking Points, like very intro. Now she is changed. She goes, it's a, you know, it is a machine. It's misleading people. I'm sorry for what I did. She said the only time that she ever got asked for questions was and asked to give questions and answers to questions was for Fox News or a conservative outlet.

18:30So, yeah, and I think they feel like they can pressure independent people to do it because you don't have as many resources and you want to be able to have access to the folks. They don't really do it. I guess they are doing it now. They didn't when I was there. They didn't really do it with legacy media because.

18:46Jasmine Enberg: Yeah. No, they try. They try. They would try when we would do events. I was at the information after CNN and they would try. But to your point, you could pass it along to somebody else to deal with it. It wouldn't necessarily be your responsibility. Let me say something though, that I think is not problematic. And even as an independent person that I have to weigh, if someone would ask me something like that, maybe they flubbed a word or they meant to say something else. If they're not asking me to change the context and the tone and tenor of a conversation, I will consider it, but I don't always, I don't often do it.

19:26That's very, very, very rare for me to do. But if you, you know, if, if, if that helps to tighten it up and make, get people to understand it better, then that's a, I think that's a perfectly legit editorial process. We do that too. I mean, we'll tighten up answers sometimes. Or if someone says something factually incorrect, we don't want to put that on our own. Right. Right. But as long as it doesn't change what they're saying, the rest of the conversation and the meaning. But it's harder to stand by your ground when you're on your own. I think that's the, that's the thing. The thing is, is that the most I do lots of man on the street interviews, that's kind of my, you know, become one of my brands, the most outspoken people and the people who bully people online and have the most outrageous views are the people.

20:07Once they see themselves online, they will contact us and ask us, oh, my God, can you please take that? People are criticizing me so much. I can't take it. And I'll say, really? Because you call everybody else a snowflake. And then once you start to get the criticism that everyone else is getting, all of a sudden you want to take it down. Sometimes if it's a younger person, I'll consider it.

20:27Jasmine Enberg: But usually, you know, if you're a willing participant and a consenting adult, I don't. I do have a heart. You know, if it's causing harm to someone, I can do it. I have the luxury to do that. But I find it fascinating that that happens and who are the people who the people are who are asking me to remove it. How would that type of request have gone over at CNN? I think you have to take everything on a per case basis. And if it is causing harm to someone, if that person is being threatened or their life is in danger or their emotional stability, then I think it is a legitimate consideration to take it down.

21:05And it just depends on what it is. Yeah. I don't think there's a blanket policy on that. But generally, no. And you also have to think about what does this mean, a man on the street interview? What does this mean for, you know what I mean? If it's causing someone harm and emotional distress. So one of the things you said that you took with you from CNN is facts to the work that you do now. But there was an independent political journalist recently at a party told a GQ reporter that it's, quote, OK to get facts wrong sometimes. What is your reaction to that? I don't think it's OK to get facts wrong sometimes.

21:39I would say people get facts wrong sometimes. And if they do, then I think it's incumbent upon the person getting the wrong facts to correct it. But I don't think that's okay because the whole point is to be accurate and to inform and educate people. So if you're getting something wrong, you have to admit it. But I think you should operate on the basis that you want to be as factual and as fact-based and as truth-based as possible. but some of the biggest people don't do that. And that's why they're the biggest people because they're catering to misinformation or to clicks. And do you think all independent journalists do that?

22:18I mean, check facts and all that kind of stuff, the way that traditional journalists are supposed to do or at least trained to do? No, do you watch some independent journalists? No, they don't. Well, so that's the big thing. I mean, one of the things we've been talking about a lot is accountability. And what we're seeing now is you have politicians and powerful people turning to independent journalists, turning to podcasters, social media creators instead of traditional reporters. And one of the reasons they're doing that is because they're hoping for and often getting an easier interview. They're not asking the tough questions.

22:46They're, you know, sometimes editing out answers that they just don't want out there. So does that concern you at all as we're moving into this era where more and more people are getting their news from social media and from influencers specifically? Yeah, it's concerning. I mean, look, my first my the first foray into this was an interview with Elon Musk.

23:04Jasmine Enberg: Well, because your show was supposed to be on X. Yeah, I had a partnership. It wasn't just just on it, but I had a partnership or content agreement with them where I would do tailored shows for them or they would get, you know, maybe 24 hours exclusive and then it would go everywhere else. And I told them, yeah, I'm going to at some point at time to time, I'm going to have to criticize the owner of this platform. Oh, yes, that's what we want. That's what he loves. But then, you know, during that interview, that wasn't, you know, I didn't think it was a, it wasn't a soft interview, but I don't think it was a gotcha interview.

23:33It was mainly about things that he had talked about publicly or things that were in the public sphere about him, but he didn't like it. And so I find that people, especially in government now or people who are, have some attachment to government now will go to places, friendly places.

23:49Jasmine Enberg: What is the responsibility of creators and does it depend on the type of content? Like, should comedy creators be held to the same standard? Because I think I don't know that creators realize the responsibility that they have to their audience. I don't think that they do, but I think that, look, the number one responsibility you have to your audience is to inform them. And I feel to super serve them the information that they are interested in. And then this is what you come here for, but also this is what you may not be hearing. So I always try to cover stories that maybe won't be covered in sort of a left centrist area.

24:27I'll try to cover things on the right. And I told my audience, you're not going to like this, but I need to tell you this. Even during Biden, I can have a lot of folks who were Biden, strong Biden supporters. And I told them, look, you're not going to like this, but let me tell you, I think this is going to happen because of this. And I don't believe that he's going to stay in this race. they didn't like it but it turns out i was right and then afterwards they thanked me for it i'm glad you said that i'm glad you told us at least you told us and i said you're not always going to agree with me and you shouldn't always agree with me you don't always agree with the people in your family maybe your husband your wife your mom your dad do you agree with 100 what they say or what they do and they say no it's like okay then why would you get upset because you don't agree with something that i say or i think that's one of the things that social media has done and And it's getting worse.

25:16It's getting worse because you have algorithms basically catering to your interests and serving you the content that you like and that you agree with. And that's what concerns me about kind of the future of news and media migrating to social platforms that are this way. Yeah, I don't know what the fix is for that. But I think that individual creators and independent journalists should be more responsible. And maybe that's the difference. I think there is a difference between a creator and I think there's a difference between an independent journalist. Absolutely. I think there's a difference between an independent media figure.

25:46You know, let's just take Stephen Colbert, for example. Stephen Colbert definitely informs people. I don't think he considers himself a journalist, but I'm sure people get information and some good information from him. And so whatever he chooses to do next, I think he would be either considered an independent creator or whatever it is. I don't think he's ever going to call himself a journalist. And I think that creators, journalists, media figures should all respect whatever their role is. And to be entirely fair to these creators and podcasters we've been talking about, so many of them have recently come out and said, hey, we're not journalists.

26:22I'm an entertainer. I'm an entertainer. I'm here again to make the guests feel comfortable. I'm not going to ask them the tough questions. I will leave that to the trained journalists. But I think, you know, the lines are just blurring so much that we have to be so much clearer and delineate between who's who and who's doing what. They should also be cognizant that people are getting their news from, I mean, look at Joe Rogan. People get their news from him and they believe him. Look at what happened during COVID, you know, with the whole ivermectin thing and, you know, and vaccines. So I think you should be aware of that, very keenly aware.

26:49And even though, you know, something may work for you, doesn't work for everybody else. That goes for everything, you know, even in these spaces. But I think you should be aware of that. You should say, look, I am not a journalist. I am not an expert. This is my opinion. And not that what I'm saying is gospel. That's the problem. that people believe that their opinions and their own personal experiences are gospel and they're not.

27:16Jasmine Enberg: What have been sort of your strategies for audience growth? I mean, obviously you came from CNN, you've been in the media industry for so long, but that's still not a guarantee that a million people are going to follow you on YouTube. So how have you done that and how have you thought about that? I have worked. Did you have a channel before CNN or while you were at CNN? No. No. To be honest truth is I've worked my ass off. Yeah. It's hard. It's hard. I've worked my ass off. But I think people think like, oh, well, Megyn Kelly, of course she has all these followers. But like, yes, she was a well-known person, but.

27:45Well, that helps. But the audience I had was not in these spaces. I'm actually. You have a different audience either. Yeah. And I helped to bring some of those people over. And then, you know, then I work on building a new audience. So who is the audience? Actually, I'm very lucky to have both young and old and everything in between. And my audience is majority women. I think 60 or 70 % of my audience is women, which advertisers love. And also... And that's on YouTube? That's on YouTube. Wow. And I'm not sure on the other things, but yeah, I think it's like 60 or 70 % women. Advertisers love that, and I love it because I know who really runs the world, who should be running the world.

28:24And I know that if you want to get something done, you hire a woman. Now I hire people and interns and people... Interns from college who come in, I'm generalizing it. the women are heads and shoulders above the men. And I don't know what's going on, but they are, you know, I don't know, but I'm just, that's my personal experience. I'm not saying that that's fact with everyone, but that is my personal experience from being an independent person.

28:53Jasmine Enberg: So, um, back to the audience growth. Yeah. The audience. So the audience growth, but that's an important part of the audience growth because women like something, they share it with their families. And their husband will listen to them. And, you know, so I think I gain more of an audience from there. This is the second time we've heard that. I know. We've been hearing all about women today. It's great. I am in tune with my audience. I know it. I look at it. And I know where it comes from. On YouTube, shorts, social media. My audience is, I have an extremely large black audience. I have every demographic, but a black audience.

29:28I walk here. Everyone, you know, of all demographics will stop me and ask me for selfies. But the black women come up and they say, inevitably, oh, my God, I love you. I watch you every day. I am supporting you 100 percent. And you are going to be great. And we're going to keep we share you with everyone. So I think that's the audience growth came from that because I believe that is an underserved demographic. Did you set out intending to build this type of audience, meaning a female audience, especially a black female audience? Or did that just happen? I set out to build an audience of thoughtful, engaged people.

30:07Initially, when I started, there were, I started with, I think, like maybe three shows a week, and then maybe some tailored shows around X or whatever, whoever wanted some tailored shows. I would do, you know, content agreement with them or distribution agreement. And then I quickly realized, it's like, what am I doing this for? This is no different than I was doing what I was doing on cable news. and just talking to an audience and there's no feedback. And I said, I'm going to sit in my living room every day at five o 'clock and I'm going to steal from, you know, Chuck Scarborough and Sue Simmons in New York live at five.

30:45And I'm going to sit in my living room and I'm going to build an audience just on the people who are watching me and I'm going to get it to grow. I'm going to grow a community and not a channel. And the moment I did that, that's when the audience started to come. And some days I'd have nothing to talk about. I would just be sitting in front of my fireplace, just reading viewer comments and answering questions. And then it became a full-fledged show that every day people are shooting. Every day people are in the chat. Can't wait for the Lemonheads are there. It's called Lemonheads and then Lemon Nation.

31:15Who called them the Lemonheads themselves?

31:17Jasmine Enberg: They started calling themselves the Lemonheads. And then I said, yeah, you're all part of Lemon Nation. And that caught on. And then we decided to make it part of our membership tier. So you have a membership tier that's Lemon Nation. And then you have Lemonheads. And this is on YouTube. And then you have Lemon Callers. And this is paid? Yeah. And then you have the Lemon Legends, which is the highest tier of our membership. We need some S-words for scalable. We need scalable. I don't know. So I just took a chance on me and I realized that people want authenticity. Yes. And they don't feel like they're getting that from traditional news right now.

31:50How important is it to go live, do you think? I mean, you go live, what, twice a day now? It's hard. Yeah. I mean, when I'm done with this, I'm going to have to do a live show. and then I'm gonna have to go and do more things like this. And then I'm gonna have to do a live show at five o 'clock. I think it's important. It was important in helping me build an audience. And I think it's important because the reason I did live is one of the reasons is because that's how people were used to seeing me. And so why reinvent the wheel? And so I started doing it live because I can, I can, that's, that's easy for me.

32:19I can talk to a wall. I could say, you know, oh, I love your scalable cards. Oh my gosh, you guys, tell me if you like the scalable cards because you do, we'll get some. and tell me your experience with like getting things that are branded better and i can talk to a wall yeah and then i'll you know say oh well sean in the comments says she doesn't like it and i guess she goes well i don't like it because such and such and then we'll just go on but people in that way they feel that they are part of something a community and not just someone that they that's just talking to them and you didn't have that in tv i mean you could read

32:48Jasmine Enberg: the tweets later but you didn't have that real time feedback no i didn't have real time feedback at all. We tried to do it with Twitter, but it became so toxic, you couldn't put it on the screen. That's really, really important for people to feel as though they're part of a community. And I noticed you put the comments on screen as well. Yeah. How important is that for the viewers? If you're in a conversation with someone, I approach it that I am having a coffee with someone or I'm sitting in a bar having a drink or whatever it is with someone. It's important to be acknowledged and, you know, and not just, again, that someone is talking at you.

33:27So if, you know, if you are, if you have something to say and I completely ignore you, then what good, why are you there? And so I want them to know. And then there's a tier of membership where you get, where your members, your comments get highlighted. If you're in a certain tier of membership, your comments are up, they go on that screen.

33:48Jasmine Enberg: It's interesting to see that on YouTube because that's a very big thing on Twitch. I know you have a Twitch channel also, but it's interesting to have that strategy on YouTube. I feel like it's more associated with Twitch where paid subscriptions are much more advanced. I think people, no matter what platform, they all want to see their name on the screen. Yeah, I know it's true. Yeah, but the legends, my lemon legends, they're on the screen with me. It's like a giant Zoom call and they are weighing in and sometimes I have to go, okay. It's like a panel. Yeah, I'm like, listen, Mae, you got to calm down.

34:16Let somebody else get in. And I, all right, we, and then, and it's like that. And sometimes even with those shows, sometimes I know that they won't, um, they're not going to, it's not rate, but they won't have as high of an engagement as a, another show, but it doesn't matter because I'm serving my audience. Yeah. Builds your core audience. And then also most people will do something that they, this is going to get a big click. This is going to get a big number. Let's do this. I don't always do that because I'm a journalist. I'll do things like I'll report on elections or whatever. And I know it's not going to get the engagement, but I say the audience needs to know.

34:50Here's a very sort of personal question for us. How do you deal with YouTube's thumbnails and titles? Because to us, you know, coming from journalism backgrounds, it feels like clickbait. We don't want to be clickbaiting, but you have to kind of play the game. Okay, so let me tell you this. I felt that too. The thumbnail or the title that I will use for YouTube is not necessarily the title I'm going to use for Substack or Spotify or iHeartRadio or Apple podcasts or whatever I'm on. I'm not going to use that because those people are more sort of traditional. And even in some ways, they read more, right?

35:24And so they don't need, they're interested. They're going there. But for YouTube, you have to stand out because YouTube is the biggest television network or the biggest, yeah, it's television and streaming or whatever in the world. So you have to stand out. So we quickly had to realize this is what we have to do and in order to survive, it has to be clickbaity. so we come up with the most click-baity things that we think are acceptable yeah how do you

35:47Jasmine Enberg: strike the balance it's a lot of like how big is this business really or three things you wouldn't believe in all caps let's just say like every once in a while like their the republican party will say things that they don't agree with with donald trump and we'll say well what do we say and i said i don't know did y 'all did the republican party did did Republicans just tell Donald Trump to F off today? And they're like, yeah, he did. I said, okay, put it on the thumbnail. Is this a new muscle for you though? Like, did you have to learn this? I mean, it was weird at first to see myself on a thumbnail going facial expression, you know, when all of a sudden it's, you know, you get a couple hundred thousand people and you're like, okay.

36:31But the thing is, is that that's just what draws them in. Once they get there, they're going to get the information but in order to get them there you have to be a little bit hyperbolic and a little bit outrageous but we make sure like when they get to when they click on this thumbnail and they tune into this show they're going to learn and they're going to learn facts and they're going to learn they're going to get a point of view and they'll get some opinion as well how big is your team and what are the roles uh scalable my team is small it was a team a team of three for the longest and then i hired a dc correspondent okay because what are the other i have a technical director and editor that gets things on the air and edits and then i have um um the executive producer of the show who also is has technical knowledge so he can be a backup to the technical director and then i have let's see

37:27yeah team of four of me it's three i still have three what am i You can count yourself. Yeah, I forget. Because someone else moved on. And I'm still looking to fill that position. And then I have a social media team that's contracted. So it's really a team of four, including me. And then my husband will come up with the most outlandish thumbnails. He's a thumbnail. Because he came from sales. And actually he worked with one of the people you were just interviewing.

37:52Jasmine Enberg: Oh, fun. At NBC. And so he'll come up and he'll say, well, what about such a... I go, that's great. And I'll tell the team. What about your business? What does it look like? And we talked a little bit about brand sponsorships. We talked about the membership tiers that you have. But how does that all sort of break down in terms of your larger business? Can you give us a pie? So YouTube is the biggest part of the pie. There's RevShare there. And then there's also merch, which does well. And then there are memberships, which does well. And we have become sort of an example on YouTube about memberships.

38:25And then for my business, I guess that's part of it. speaking engagements that I do, which promotes the thing. And then sales, ad sales. What's the biggest driver? Brand partnerships? YouTube and brand partnerships. And are those brand partnerships primarily on YouTube or is it elsewhere as well? YouTube and social media. Yeah. We see now that social media is starting to learn, companies are starting to learn about monetizing social media because in many ways, that's where the eyes are. I mean, you know, I have a million plus subscribers, almost a million five subscribers on YouTube, but I have, I'll tell you right now, let's look at this.

39:04We need up to date. Up to date on right now on Instagram, I have 2.8 million. And then there is Facebook, which I have.

39:17Jasmine Enberg: Are you making any money on Facebook? I have 4.2 million on meta. Yeah. Yeah. And then on, where else am I? Well, anyway, you get the point. There are way more. Would you ever go back to traditional media in some capacity? Like, would you do a contributor role on TV? I mean, I never say never on the contributor role, but it'd have to be the right thing. I don't want to go anywhere where someone is telling me or someone is censoring me. So I may do a contributor role if that contributor role would help to inform people. But lots of times, I have friends who are doing very well in independent journalism or independent media.

39:53And actually going on traditional media is hurtful because it doesn't help them.

39:57Jasmine Enberg: Interesting. Because the people who are interested in them will say, well, you're just part of legacy media, so why should I even trust you over here? So I'd really have to weigh that. Yeah, I ask because we're seeing sort of these interesting hybrid approaches like Joanna Stern, who was a Wall Street Journal tech columnist for a long time. She went independent. She has a YouTube channel. newsletter and she also has an NBC contributor deal. So it's interesting to see people kind of keep one foot in the door sometimes. Yeah. And then I have a newsletter as well in Substack. So that's where I'm in.

40:25I don't know. I don't know the analytics, but pretty well. I mean, we're often one of the top trending news. Is it paid? Both paid and free subscribers, but we, the paid is good. And yeah, Substack is good to us. All of our platforms are good tools. So we have saved the easiest question from us. Where do you see all of this going? Like, If you're thinking about traditional media and cable news specifically, like what's next? Like, where's all of this headed? I do think it's going to reach critical mass pretty soon. And it's going to be harder to stand out. So if you're not in this game now. What's going to reach critical mass?

40:59Just the amount of independent. The amount of like independent journalists and people, you know, people are going to be able to afford, I believe, especially in this economy, only so many people. I wish that I had the opportunity to do this five, eight, ten years ago. Had I known if I could look into the future, I would have left legacy media or maybe scaled back what I was doing on legacy media, maybe perhaps being a contributor or whatever. And I would have gone into this because I would be so far ahead that I would have made more money that I could ever make in legacy media doing this and had way more influence now.

41:37The interesting thing is that legacy media has the reach, the numbers. For some reason, I am more relative now than when I was in legacy media. People still recognize me from that, so that's a huge advantage that I had. But the amount of people who stop me on the street every day and say, my God, I love your man on the street, or I watch you live on Instagram, or I watch you live on Twitch or watch you live on Substack or watch you live on TikTok. That's where people are spending their time. Yeah. And so those things are able to be monetized now and people are getting their news in bite-sized chunks.

42:17So I try to update them throughout the day on news because I know some of them will only be on social media. But I think that's where it's going. And if you're not in it now, it's going to be even that much harder for you to get into it and be successful at it.

42:29Jasmine Enberg: So what happens to the New York Times, cable news? I think that they will be there, but it'll be different. The New York Times is a little bit different, but I think the cable news channels. The New York Times is going to be there. I think cable news. I think CNN will be there. I think MS Now and Fox News. Fox News is killing it, right? Super serving their audience. Not a lot of facts most of the time. Fair and balanced. Yeah. Okay. But I mean, they admitted that they weren't a news organization. basically with the Tucker Carlson trial. And I think - That was pretty wild. When they said, that's not news.

43:06I'm like, oh, okay. Well, a lot of people think it's news.

43:12So where does it go? I don't know. I think the New York Times and those, they're going to be around, but they're not going to be as influential as they were. They are now. People aren't watching the way that they used to. So, and, you know, the longer this goes on, the younger the demographics get. And sadly, cable and broadcast news, their audiences are older. Do you think they can ever come back, though? I mean, they're trying so many different things, like putting podcasts as shows on CNN and MSNBC, for example. I think they could have a renaissance, perhaps, maybe a bit of a renaissance. But I don't think it's ever going to change, especially if they're putting people from streaming and independent media who are legacy media coded.

43:59who still have the patina of cable news or legacy media. That's what they're doing now. And it looks like cable, but with a podcast, Mike. Yeah. And I...

44:09Jasmine Enberg: Well, they literally did that. Anderson Cooper had a podcast. I love Anderson. Jake Tapper was in his office. Yeah. Jake, I love Jake. But yeah, that was a bit cringe, I have to admit. But they just hired a financial creator as an analyst. Did you see that? Yeah. Kayla Scanlon, which is interesting. I think that's great. I think that's great. I think it'll work. But I think like, you know, people like complete independence. And I think that, you know, for it's going to take a while for people to believe that they're not being influenced by their owners. And especially now, if you look at what's happening with CBS and possibly CNN.

44:42Yeah, it's hard to come back from that. It's hard to come back from that. If they continue on the road that they're on now, as I've been speaking to media executives, the quote is they're going to need a miracle to stay afloat. Well, that's a note to end on.

44:58Jasmine Enberg: We're going to do a quick rapid fire with you. Okay, what's the one thing you can do now that you couldn't do on CNN? You seriously want to? Well, one is whatever I want to is I could say f*** if I want to. What's one news creator people should be paying attention to? Don Lemon. Besides Don Lemon. You can say scalable, though. Scalable. I try to watch a lot of people, but I think who... Oh, you know, I think I love watching... I love watching Sam Seder on the majority report. Who's your favorite person to interview? My favorite person to interview. That's hard because I like interviewing a bunch of people.

45:38I love doing man on the streets. It's not easy. People think it's easy. It's not easy. How do you pick the people? I look and go, that person will talk and that person will talk or I'll ask him and they'll say no. And I'll say, it's really easy. This is very J school. Like this is how they hazed you. They made you go to man on the street And they call it a one man bag. I'll say it's really easy. Come on. And sometimes they'll do it and they'll say, I'll pay you. And I say, I'm kidding. I can't pay you. And if they, I'll leave them alone. I don't like to badger people, but most times people are willing to talk.

46:05But I loved interviewing Hillary Clinton. She's one of the smartest people I know and just overly qualified to be in whatever political office. She hasn't been on my show yet, but we're going to get her. Well, that's probably going to be your answer to the next question, which is who is on your wish list to come on the Don Lemon show? I would love to get the Obamas. I would love to get, in this moment, which I think could happen, Jimmy Kimmel. I'd love to get Stephen Colbert. I would love to get Mr. Beast. And, oh, and I'd love to get Kaysenak and Speedy. What's the best career advice you've ever received?

46:41Well, two things. Work hard and make sure you're telling the truth. Future of media in one word. Tenuous. Thank you so much. Tenuous, but I am optimistic in this independent media space. We are too. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for doing that. Thanks so much for tuning into Scalable. We'll see you here again next week.

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