Live Streaming Isn’t Dead. Bieberchella and MrBeast Just Proved It

0:00Jasmine Enberg: Hi, everyone. This is Scalable, a weekly show about the business of the creator economy. I'm Kaya Yurieff. And I'm Jasmine Enberg. Every Thursday, we take you beyond the headlines to tell you what's happening, what it means, and why it matters. You can soon get a college degree in the creator economy. And live streaming is having a new renaissance. Mr. Beast and Justin Bieber are a case in point. Today, we dive into these stories and more. Plus, we interview YouTube executive Steve McClendon about the company's podcasting strategy.

0:31Jasmine Enberg: Hi, Jasmine. Hey, Kaya. And hi, everyone. Thanks so much for tuning into our weekly show about the creator economy, starting today's episode with some business news about us. We are so excited that we're now part of the ACAST podcast network, which is home to so many great shows, including a personal favorite of mine, Hannah Berner and Paige DeSorbo's Giggly Squad, as well as the Guardian's Football Weekly and so many more. We are really excited to work with the ACAST team to grow and monetize our show. We have a lot of news to get to, but first... When do we not, though? Always. Maybe there will be a slow week one time.

1:06Jasmine Enberg: But first, here is a stat that stopped us in our tracks. 120 million people now pay for YouTube Premium to skip ads. So that means if you're a brand and you're not working with creators, you are invisible to YouTube's most valuable audience. This episode is brought to you by Agentio, the AI-native platform for creator advertising and the title sponsor of our Scalable Summit happening on May 6th in LA. So Agentio analyzed over 10 ,000 YouTube integrations across brands like Bombas, Maeve, Olipop, Uber, Skims, and Cash App. And what they found is wild. So 40 % of views and 30 % of clicks happen more than 30 days after a video goes live.

1:46Jasmine Enberg: So YouTube organic brand integrations aren't rented reach, their own real estate that compounds and even improves how your brand is showing up in AI results over time. Yeah, I was really struck by those figures too when Agentio first shared them with us. And I think it speaks back to something, you know, that we've been following for quite some time, which is that people on YouTube are going to search for videos versus having it served to them. So as a brand, if you're still attributing YouTube spend to a 30-day window, you're mathematically undervaluing your own program. This is how Maeve discovered an entirely new set of audience on YouTube and saw two to three X higher earned media value compared to Instagram and TikTok influencer programs, all scaled with one person.

2:25Jasmine Enberg: Go to agentio.com to download the full YouTube report and book a demo. Oh, wait, Jasmine, I was very jealous of this because you hosted a live podcast last week from Syracuse University's campus in Los Angeles to celebrate the launch of Syracuse's Center for the Creator Economy. I was so bummed to be not there in person. There are definitely moments like this that give me FOMO to not be living in LA where so much of the action is happening, including Coachella, which is also happening now outside of the city. Well, we definitely missed you last week at Syracuse. But if it makes you feel any better, I have lived in LA for almost a decade in total at this point.

3:02Jasmine Enberg: And I've never been to Coachella. And honestly, I have to say Coachella weekends are always the best weekends to be in the city in LA because everyone's out in the desert and it is so quiet and there's barely any traffic, which is amazing. So some have christened Coachella as the influencer Olympics because it has become such a status symbol for influencers to attend. And it's felt like too, It's like, oh, is Coachella over? You know, there's been kind of ebbs and flows. But this year, it is bigger than ever. We're going to get into that in a little bit. I mean, honestly, I think a better name for it would be Creatorchella, but I digress.

3:35Jasmine Enberg: Anyway, let's move on to Syracuse, which is our real top story. So Syracuse University will let you get a minor in the creator economy starting in the fall. So the university actually has a satellite campus here in LA, as well as in several other cities in the US. And this was the last stop on the university's tour, promoting the new center for the creator economy. And like you said, I got to host a live recording of our podcast with Stephanie Patrick, who is the co-founder of Theorist Media, which if you don't know, is a digital media studio with popular YouTube shows like Game Theory and Food Theory, as well as creator Nick Urteaga and Michael Curtis, who is the founder of Proud Management.

4:14Jasmine Enberg: He is also a Syracuse alum, so that was really fun to have him on the podcast with us. It is a major moment for an accredited university to launch an entire curriculum dedicated to the creator economy. The creator economy is an industry that most people have fallen into by accident. It's almost entirely self-taught, and there are just so many different paths to success. And that's, of course, what's also going to make it really challenging for Syracuse, as well as other universities that may ultimately go down this path to teach. So for a little bit of context, the center provides students with education, resources, and industry partnerships in the creator economy.

4:50Jasmine Enberg: And students can also receive a minor in the creator economy, an actual college degree. So that is really huge. They complete three mandatory courses, and then they can select from a number of different elective courses. And there was one called Trendspotting in Digital Media. There's also AI for creative professionals, sports content for social platforms, and advanced media business. So you can see that there really are a variety of elective courses that these students can take. I like want to take all of those, although I guess this job is sort of like getting a degree in the creator economy.

5:21Jasmine Enberg: So we study this every day. But it is such a really big moment, I think. I mean, over the years, we've seen universities and other educational institutions in the U.S. dabble in creator economy related courses. But most of these have really been directed toward professionals, graduate students, or they've just had a much narrower scope. UCLA Extension, for example, has offered continuing education classes in social media, marketing, and influencers since at least 2018. Shout out to Leah Haberman, who is a friend of Scalable who teaches those courses. And we were both guest speakers together a few years ago.

5:52Jasmine Enberg: Cornell University also has had a graduate seminar called Platforms, Power, and Precarity in the Creator Economy. Shout out to another friend of Scalable, Brooke Aaron Duffy, who teaches at Cornell. And I will say is one of like the few professors who really, really understands this space. And then in 2022, if you remember, Mr. Beast and East Carolina University announced that they were developing a credentialing program for creators. But it's unclear what came of that. And no one can kind of seem to figure it out or get to the bottom of it. To be fair, Mr. Beast has been very busy recently. And I had actually forgotten this news until you pointed it out to me the other day.

6:27Jasmine Enberg: But that was 2022. too. I mean, he was also much smaller than if you think about how much his business has grown. So, you know, I know his business has been on this crazy trajectory the past four years, but it is interesting what happened there. But the only other program that we could really find that's similar to what Syracuse is offering is in Ireland. The Southeast Technological University offers a Bachelor of Arts in content creation and social media. Fun fact. And when I spoke to the Syracuse professors, what they told me is that the center really came from demand from students. So a lot of them are already creating content for social media.

7:02Jasmine Enberg: They're making money from it and they want to better understand how to operate in this industry and learn the skills that they need in order to build a business. Nick and Michael, who were on the panel with me, echoed this sentiment saying that the number one thing kids now want to be when they grow up is a creator or a YouTuber, which is just so wild for me to think about. And also that being a creator is a legitimate career now. And the data actually supports that. So last year, the IAB released a study saying that there are now over 1.5 million full-time equivalent creators in the US, meaning these are creators who are earning about$60 ,000 or more annually.

7:39Jasmine Enberg: I crunched the numbers when that report came out. That means that there are now more full-time equivalent creators in the US than there are active doctors or lawyers based on the latest available data. If you watch the full conversation, which we published on Tuesday, you can actually hear an audible gasp in the room when I said this. Now, of course, the problem is that medical school and law school have very defined academic curriculums and clear paths to success. The creator economy does not. Okay, that stat also blows my mind. And also, so many doctors and lawyers have become creators and have, in many cases, quit their jobs because being on social media is so much more lucrative.

8:18Jasmine Enberg: I mean, There's a whole other conversation about what that means for society. But obviously, it is easier in many ways to become a creator than a doctor or lawyer, at least from an academic standpoint. So I know that during the panel, you asked everyone how they would design the curriculum and what the most important classes would be. We also obviously have a lot of thoughts on how we would approach designing a creator economy curriculum. I will go first since I have so much FOMO for not getting to be on this panel. Look, I mean, I think the core curriculum should have courses that touch on entrepreneurship, business operations, branding, content strategy, commerce.

8:53Jasmine Enberg: And then I think there needs to be a monetization one on one course. I mean, I think people understand generally that you can make a living as a full time creator. But the diversity of these different businesses is what's not well understood. I mean, I think a lot of people know that you can make money from brand deals, but that obviously has its limitations and isn't sustainable in some cases. And I think thinking back to the conversation we aired on last week's episode, Complexly, the creator education company founded by Hank and John Green is a great example. I mean, it's structured as a nonprofit.

9:21Jasmine Enberg: It earns most of its money from grants and viewer support via Patreon. You know, other creators make a killing on their newsletters or from speaking gigs or from physical products. I mean, there's so many ways to succeed. So I think the core curriculum should help students understand that. and also put a heavy emphasis on the business operations required, because I think a lot of people get into this for the creativity and the content aspect, which obviously is so important and should also be a big part of this. But they have to go hand in hand, because I think even us were realizing like all the behind the scenes business operations that that go into this.

9:56Jasmine Enberg: And, you know, we studied the space and wrote about it for a long time. So we knew what we were getting into to much of an extent. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that's something that is often misunderstood about the creator economy, that there really isn't a one size fits all for the, you know, being a creator, businesses look very, very different. And all of those topics that you just mentioned were things that came up on the panel. And most of them are, you know, things that Syracuse will also address. I also keep thinking back to something that Julie, who's the CEO of Complexly said on our interview the other week, she said that being a creator is essentially like being a small business owner and creators really are just the new entrepreneurs.

10:34Jasmine Enberg: So that did make me wonder though, if a specific curriculum in the creator economy is actually necessary. So much of what you're learning in business school, management school, communication school is applicable to the creator economy. Do you really need a minor in the creator economy itself? I asked this on the panel and Stephanie made a really great point, which is that what 18 year old is going to take it upon themselves to choose and take all of these courses. Not many, most likely. It is hard enough at that age to know what you want to do with your college degree, let alone know which courses to select on your own to prepare you for it.

11:11Jasmine Enberg: Like you said, I mean, I think everybody gets the content creation and the social media side of things about being a creator, but not the business side. So it makes a ton of sense to have a specific curriculum because having this pre-programmed curriculum really chosen by educators makes it far more likely that students are actually going to take the courses that they need in order to succeed. No, it's so true. And I mean, I think you could make that argument for any career, right? Like you could not go to journalism school and then go work at CNN and get a crash course in journalism on the job.

11:40Jasmine Enberg: Unless you're a surgeon. I would like surgeons to go to medical school and take all of the required courses. Obviously, this excludes doctors and lawyers. But in many other careers, it's true. Well, now our surgeons are just going to be trained by Chad GBT. So buckle up, Jess. But there is just so much that goes into being a creator that you don't know until you're actually in it. I mean, our journalism degrees certainly didn't set us up for everything that comes with the job. I think for us in Scalable, you know, it's setting up the business, It's hiring, it's writing, it's looking over contracts, it's paying taxes.

12:17Jasmine Enberg: Even when we launch, right, it's thinking about our brand, not just our mission, but the colors, the fonts, the feel of it, like all these things that we you kind of know on the surface level. But then when you sit down, you're like, wow, you don't really know. Yeah. And I think obviously, we would not have known what classes we needed to take to prepare for this. Luckily, we have a business partner, which is why we went this route with this hybrid business model with the White House that helps us with all of those things. But that's just not the case for most creators, especially when they're first starting out.

12:46Jasmine Enberg: But related to this, one big question I had, and I know you talked about this too, but who is going to teach the courses? The creator economy moves so fast and is constantly changing. And when I think about academia and academic curriculums, they're set so far in advance. And the courses are taught by professors who are obviously experts in their fields, but not necessarily experts in the creator economy. Syracuse said it's bringing in guest lecturers to help. I think that's a really smart strategy, and it also helps them offer diverse perspectives on how to actually make it in this space. Harvard Business School has done something similar, bringing in people like Kim Kardashian and Alex Earle to do guest lectures.

13:23Jasmine Enberg: I think it's also an honor for creators to get to do this. So I imagine Syracuse will have a long list of people raising their hand to guest lecture. I'm raising my hand to guest lecture for sure. Same. Syracuse, if you're listening, you've got two very willing guest lecturers over here. But I have to say the other thing that our journalism degrees did not teach us is setting us up for this current media landscape that we're in without aging myself too much. I went to school for broadcast journalism, which at the time meant TV. And like, yes, the focus by that point was being a quote, one man band.

13:57Jasmine Enberg: Kaya, do you remember that terminology? Yes. Which basically means that you have to be on screen. You have to script. You have to produce. You have to edit. You have to do all of these things by yourself, which isn't entirely unlike what creators do, but it was all designed for cable news versus, you know, social media, YouTube. And now, of course, it is not just TV. It is podcasts. We have one. It's YouTube. It's social media. It's newsletters. And the lines between all of these different channels are blurring. So being a journalist today really means you need to understand how to be on all of these different channels and platforms, often simultaneously.

14:32Jasmine Enberg: And I know both of us have had to do a lot of unlearning from what we learned in journalism school. And of course, it's not just journalists. The creator economy now touches everything from sports to politics to marketing to business, you name it. So it made me think that maybe creator economy classes should just be part of every degree rather than treated as something separate, you know, having a center for the creator economy. Like, shouldn't everybody at this point be taking courses on content creation, on AI, on media literacy, on trendspotting, entrepreneurship? Like, these really feel like things that could be applicable to any course of study or career.

15:11Jasmine Enberg: So Syracuse told me that that's actually one reason why they decided to make it a minor in the creator economy. So what that means is that essentially any student, regardless of what their major or their course of study is, can take it. I am so curious to find out how many people sign up for it, because I imagine that there will be quite a few takers. Yeah, I think there's going to be high demand for it. And you see it now with executives and CEOs of companies. I mean, they are putting their CEOs front and center, whether it's on LinkedIn or TikTok videos. I mean, every executive to a degree now has to learn that.

15:43Jasmine Enberg: And obviously not everyone has to be on camera, but we're seeing that. So to your point, I mean, I think it is a very valuable skill set no matter which direction your career takes you. I also love the debate you had about whether creators are journalists or not. I will refrain from saying my opinion on that. Was not surprised to hear conflicting opinions on that. I was not able to refrain. I had to give my opinion. Well, don't give it away. If you're curious, you have to tune in to the full episode, which is now available on our YouTube channel. But OK, on to our next story, live streaming. Obviously, live streaming has been around for a long time.

16:18Jasmine Enberg: Twitch was founded as Justin TV in 2007. So nearly 20 years ago now. And back in 2014, it was acquired by Amazon. But lately, it seems live streaming is emerging as a way to stand out in a crowded creator economy from Mr. B star studded live stream over Easter weekend that drew in 1 million people at once to this year's Coachella. Let's start with Coachella. So Coachella has been live streamed on YouTube since 2011, which is kind of wild to think about. But this year really felt like a different level. YouTube is calling it, you know, the most immersive today. I know companies always say that about every year.

16:53Jasmine Enberg: But this year, they live streamed all seven stages simultaneously in 4K quality and also in vertical and horizontal, which is so interesting. And I think, of course, over the years, we've seen creators post a ton of stories and videos and photos, but many more of them this year have been live streaming. And I think Coachella is such an event that people want to tune into in real time. And that was also the approach headliner Justin Bieber took as well. I mean, he literally incorporated YouTube into the show. He pulled up old clips. He revisited his origin story. If you don't know this, he rose to fame by singing covers on YouTube before being discovered.

17:30Jasmine Enberg: And he even, you know, sang to his younger self on screen. And also in the months leading up to Coachella, he joined Twitch back in October, and he was live streaming some of his rehearsal prep on Twitch. Yeah, so my sister texted me on Friday night asking if I was going to watch Bieber Chala. I did not, but she watched it from Finland at 9.45 a.m. So I think that speaks to why you had Justin Bieber and so many creators live streaming from the event this year. It helps them to reach a much broader audience. Like, that is not to say that Coachella is small by any means. I think there's about 100 ,000 people who are expected to attend this year, but not everybody can go.

18:08Jasmine Enberg: I mean, Coachella is crazy expensive. It is also hard to get to, even if you live in LA, like you have to drive out a few hours into the desert and there is a lot of traffic. And live streaming really gives people the feeling that they're there experiencing something much more so than seeing a bunch of photos and get ready with me videos or concert clips online, though, of course, people are watching those too. But I think the IRL streams kind of show the real behind the scenes of those big events that you can see the chaos, the wind, the noise, the long lines, the dust. So for audiences, it gives them a lot more of that genuine experience of actually being there on the ground, much more so, again, than an edited short form video where you're often just seeing like the highlight reel or the best moments.

18:53Jasmine Enberg: But a bigger audience also has drawbacks. So take Bieber's performance, for example. You got the full experience, even if you are at home, and not everybody was impressed. So Entertainment Weekly had a lot of negative things to say. It headlined its article with Justin Bieber delivers sleepy Coachella performance, doom scrolls and watches YouTube videos mid show, which is, you know, quite the headline. Honestly, I'm not totally surprised by this. Did you watch his Grammys performance? No, I didn't. So he showed up in boxers and basically just sang and played on his laptop the whole time. But I watched it and I, you know, I felt very Justin Bieber-esque, at least for this moment.

19:31Jasmine Enberg: A lot of other people online loved the YouTube element and the ode to Justin's roots. And one user on Instagram wrote, he's just like us for real. And another called it iconic. I have to say that I am way more on team Justin on this one. Like I think playing his old YouTube videos and singing to his younger self is just epic. And Coachella is the right place to do something like this much more so than the Grammys, which just feels much more formal and serious and maybe not somewhere you should show up in your boxers. And it also helped him stand out amid all of the other performers who are at Coachella.

20:04Jasmine Enberg: They have a big show. They have costumes, you name it. And here we are, you know, talking about Justin's kind of lo-fi performance. Totally. Okay, so I didn't tune in on the live stream. I was in Paris this weekend, which was some of the benefits of living in Europe that you can just jet over for a weekend. But I was very into this overall. And I spent a lot of time watching clips and like looking at the reactions and all of that. I mean, I think, you know, as a former believer, Justin Bieber has been through so much as an artist. And I think, like, I agree with a lot of the people online who said, like, he's earned the right to do the performance this way.

20:39Jasmine Enberg: I mean, it felt like very full circle, especially, you know, when he sang to his younger self. The other thing that struck me, what you said, is, like, it was so lo-fi, which was, you know, the vibe of so many early videos on the Internet. And even now, too, to an extent. But like, at a time when so many artists put on a crazy show, right? Like I was at the Arrows tour in Germany, which was like amazing and impressive and over the top. And like, obviously, I paid to go there and flew there and all that. So you want to show. But I do think it's kind of powerful to put on like a lo-fi show like that.

21:11Jasmine Enberg: And also not everybody can do that. I mean, Justin Bieber is so talented. Like, I think there's only a handful of artists that would be able to put on a performance like that, right? I mean, not to say that, you know, the big shows, you know, I'm a huge fan. Taylor Swift fan, I didn't get to go to the Arrows tour. And I wish I had there's value in that too. But I think you know, it's there's only a few artists that can do what Justin Bieber did. Totally. And I can understand if you paid a lot of money to be at Coachella, you expected something a bit more exciting, but it did feel like a moment and it was very artistic.

21:40Jasmine Enberg: So I think some of the people that are calling it doom scrolling are missing the point. Okay, but we wanted to zoom out and ask, why is live streaming so powerful? I mean, in general, there is a FOMO and urgency element. You have to tune in during that moment. You know, anything can happen. And it's also just continuous time that someone spends with you. Another huge part of live streaming is the community. The fans talk to each other as much as they talk to the streamer. And again, that real-time element differentiates it from a standard kind of comment section on a TikTok or YouTube video. And this was full-on display with Bieber's performance too.

22:14Jasmine Enberg: I mean, he asked to chat on YouTube live for what songs they wanted to hear and really made them feel part of the show. So So even me watching the clips back, like even though I can see the live stream, I don't think it was the same experience as if I had tuned in live. Live streaming has been really popular for gaming. I think a big reason for that is because you can live stream yourself for many hours playing video games and people love watching people play video games. And then, of course, there's so many opportunities to like react in the live chat and throughout. We talked at length last week about OpenAI's acquisition of tech podcast TVPN.

22:45Jasmine Enberg: There are several reasons why TVPN has become such a breakout success. And a major one is because they decided to live stream their show every day for three hours and then make it available later as a podcast. But they live streamed it both on YouTube and on X. This brings us to Mr. Beast. So he hosted a mega live stream on YouTube over Easter weekend, tapping 50 major streamers who competed to win, of course, because there always has to be competition and money involved. But they competed to win a million dollars to give to their followers. You know, obviously, the crossover effect was huge here, having all the streamers be able to, you know, put this out to their fans who are used to also tuning in live.

23:23Jasmine Enberg: So that brought in a lot of audiences. But even despite a holiday weekend, it did really well. And MrBeast also co-hosted the stream with iShowSpeed, who has become hugely popular, you know, over the past year or so. The stream was a huge success. I mean, it got over 84 million views within about a week or so of posting. but more notably at its peak the stream saw one million people tuning in at once crazy i think as the biggest creator in the world it's always interesting to watch what mr beast does and the fact that he is leaning into live streaming is a big signal as a side note i was scrolling twitter when i was thinking about this episode and mr beast also just posted a video of him gaming with friends, which he said had its highest retention and most views in 24 hours ever.

24:08Jasmine Enberg: And he posted on X, gonna do more chill videos like this with the boys. And like, it got me thinking, you know, especially with with the Bieber performance. I mean, this video was by no means lo-fi, like it obviously had graphics and good camera quality. But the concept is quite low lift for Mr. Beast, who is used to spending so much money and doing all this outrageous stuff. and a user responded to his tweet and said da homies vibed and gaming is unbeatable would love to see more and mr beast said sometimes it really be that simple so the point of all this is that in a world of over the top overly produced content and performances sometimes like people just want something simple and you gotta zag when everyone else is zigging to stand out and even mr beast who's who who ushered in arguably this whole era youtube is going more lo-fi so there you go but i That speaks to your point about community, right?

25:00Jasmine Enberg: I mean, there's one thing to watch a Mr. Beast video where he's giving away millions of dollars or doing some crazy stuff somewhere. It's another thing to kind of watch him, you know, gaming in his living room with friends. It makes you kind of feel like you're there. And I think a lot of people feel like Mr. Beast, to some degree, is their friend. And that kind of speaks to that aspect of the creator and audience relationship. But Mr. Beast isn't just live streaming. He's also been dabbling in live shopping recently. He's actually a perfect fit for that too, not just because he draws a crowd, but also because of those signature cash giveaways that he does.

25:35Jasmine Enberg: So earlier this year, he teamed up with live shopping startup, whatnot, putting together a big game, big deals promotion. This was around the Super Bowl. So Mr. Beast gave away a Lamborghini, a San Francisco 49ers Super Bowl ring, speaking about outrageous and over the top, and a literal gold bar. I would very much like to know who won all these different things. But Whatnot is one of the few creator live shopping startups that has seen breakout success. Others have really struggled post-pandemic. It has raised crazy amounts of funding. In October 2025, it announced it had raised$225 million in a Series F round, which more than doubled its valuation to$11.5 billion in less than 10 months.

26:21Jasmine Enberg: Last year, Whatnot also said that it expected to sell about$6 billion in goods, which are mostly quirky toys, but they've since expanded into things like fashion and accessories, you name it. But live shopping in general has a very complicated history here in the US. It is, of course, massive in China, driving about$540 billion in sales in 2025, according to estimates from eMarketer. So many companies have tried to make live shopping happen in the US, but it just has not taken the same effect. So you've had Pinterest, you've had Facebook, Instagram, YouTube all dabble in it to a certain degree.

26:57Jasmine Enberg: So have Amazon, Nordstrom, Walmart, you name it. But TikTok really is the only major social platform so far where it's really taken off. And that makes sense. I mean, Kaye, you talked about the FOMO and the urgency that comes with live streams. And that's what TikTok and TikTok shop in particular is all about. But it's still not a habit even for people in TikTok shop the way that it is in China. And despite all of the hype, I just don't ever really think it will be. It is basically QVC for the internet hosted by creators, and that's fine, but it's just not going to be the primary way that people are shopping.

27:32Jasmine Enberg: I actually did a study with impact.com last year, and it showed that just 11 % of people who had bought something from a creator did so during a live stream. So you can see that it's just not, you know, a common practice, even among the people who are buying from creators and from social media. So that is not to say that live stream shopping doesn't have a place. It can work really well for things like giveaways a la Mr. Beast, as well as limited edition drops or heavy sales periods like Black Friday or Cyber Monday. So last year, for example, Kim Kardashian hosted a shoppable live stream dubbed Kismas for Skims, which I love the name.

28:08Jasmine Enberg: And overall, TikTok said that brands and sellers experienced 84 % sales growth from live streams over Black Friday weekend compared to 2024 and generated about 1.6 billion views. Of course, we don't know where that 84 % was growing from, so it's hard to say exactly how big it is. But the one thing that TikTok has done that has made it work so well on the platform is that it has allowed brands and creators to advertise across the service and promote their live streams and get people to click through immediately. They also provide the infrastructure, meaning inventory, shipping, and delivery for live shopping, which other social platforms just haven't done.

28:47Jasmine Enberg: But even then, you know, most of the shopping and most of the sales that take place on TikTok shop aren't happening through live streams. It's hard to find exact data on this, but I found a few third-party estimates, and all of them said that under 30 % of sales from TikTok shop came from live streaming. And from so many of the TikTok shop creators that I've spoken to, like, yes, live shopping can be very lucrative, but it's also very cyclical and unpredictable. Yeah, I mean, agree on that. And I think one reason Whatnot initially rose to popularity is because it focused on categories like trading cards and physical collectibles like Funko Pop figurines that already, you know, has scarcity and a niche and a market of collectors trying to find those items.

29:29Jasmine Enberg: I mean, obviously, like you mentioned, it's since branched out to fashion and other items, but it has been an interesting tactic to focus on those types of categories. I think another interesting dynamic with streaming is that historically creators chose a platform to live stream on. Now it's easier to simulcast. TVPN, for example, goes live on X and YouTube. But Twitch didn't even allow creators to simulcast to other platforms until 2023. So this is a really recent shift. While pre-pandemic, when I would interview creators, a lot of them would identify as a YouTuber or an Instagram influencer, that was even more true of streamers because they generally picked, because they had to a platform to live stream on.

30:06Jasmine Enberg: So this, to take you back a little bit, caused this huge exclusivity war beginning in around 2019 between YouTube and Twitch, with the two platforms offering, you know, huge amounts of cash to streamers like Dr. Lupo and Tim the Tap Man to stay on their platforms or to join from a rival. Ninja was probably the most high profile example. He got paid tens of millions to leave Twitch to go to Microsoft's Mixer, which then was defunct and then he ended up going back to Twitch. But these exclusive deals eventually stopped and they haven't come back when it comes to streaming. And one major thing that happened is that streamers got paid a bunch of money and then kind of stopped trying as hard, right?

30:45Jasmine Enberg: So that seems really hard to imagine creators doing now. But we've seen this kind of play out in other ways. I mean, TikTok, YouTube and Instagram all fought for short form creators with different incentives, you know, at various points, YouTube Shorts was giving, you know, TikTok creators cash to post short videos exclusively for a period of time. And now we're seeing the same trend play out with Netflix as it fights for podcasters. We will talk to Steve McClendon, who is the product lead for podcasting at YouTube about what he makes of the Netflix podcaster deals later in the episode and whether YouTube will do anything to respond.

31:16Jasmine Enberg: So speaking of picking a platform to stream on, one thing I'm really curious about is the Amazon Twitch integration and how all of that plays out. Like, yes, it's very interesting to see what the biggest creator in the world does. But Amazon is the world's largest retailer and it sets the stage and the standard for what we expect from our shopping experiences. Like it is very hard for me to order from anywhere that doesn't offer a two day shipping or less now. And that's all because of Amazon. And like you said, Twitch is owned by Amazon. And in October, it finally launched shoppable live streams powered by Amazon ads.

31:51Jasmine Enberg: And Elf Cosmetics was the first partner. Elf is always one of the first to, try out many of these new shopping channels. But basically, it's letting people buy its makeup directly in these streams. This also comes as Amazon has been making a bigger push into video ads more generally. It's in putting shoppable videos into Amazon Prime Video, for example, letting viewers shop those products that they're seeing on the screen. Twitch is obviously also another huge property for Amazon to monetize. And so point being, if Amazon is moving into this space, it is definitely one that is worth watching right now.

32:26Jasmine Enberg: Yeah, I mean, I'd be curious to see how they bring, you know, creators into Amazon's ad strategy with Twitch more broadly. I mean, so many influencers have Amazon storefronts and affiliate codes. So it does feel like a little bit of a missed opportunity for them to not integrate Twitch more deeply. I mean, I think part of that has to do with kind of the risks and the downsides of live streaming. Yes, of which there are many. I think one big one, of course, is safety. I mean, do you remember back in 2019, when the Christ Christchurch attacks in New Zealand were live streamed on Facebook. I think that spooked a lot of brands and people more generally, and brands have taken that with them as they thought about their live streaming strategies, because anything can happen live and they have way less control over those experiences.

33:07Jasmine Enberg: That makes them more cautious. I mean, obviously the Christchurch attacks, I mean, that is a very different case than say a shoppable live stream that's filmed in a studio, but still there's a lot of risk of, you know, something happening that's out of a brands control while they're hosting a live video like this. Yeah, if you look at Twitch's business, I mean, it makes sense that they've had more success with paid subscriptions and other digital goods, such as giving, you know, viewers and fans the ability to pay to send, you know, animated emojis to stand out more in the chat. And that's a huge way both creators and Twitch make money, which is unlike many other platforms and creators that rely primarily on ads.

33:43Jasmine Enberg: So Twitch is also trying to bring in more brands and build out its ad business. And that's another reason why you see the closer integration with Amazon now. Yeah. And I think, you know, on the brand side of things, it is not just the risk of someone saying or doing something wrong. Like, what if the tech malfunctions in the middle of the live stream? And then what? I mean, it takes a lot of tech and infrastructure to get live streams to work. And I think that more than brand safety at this point is the biggest roadblock for brands. I mean, it requires so much effort. You have to make sure you have enough inventory.

34:16Jasmine Enberg: You also have to make sure that you're prepared for the potential influx and orders, you often have to find a partner to host it for you. And for a lot of brands, live stream shopping just isn't sustainable outside of a few special events a year. So take Orca, for example. I mean, they were originally a live shopping company that worked very closely with TikTok. I mean, they recently merged with another agency called Sapphire Studios. And I think on the one hand, this shows that there's growing interest from brands for live shopping, but it also shows that it's probably not sustainable as a business on its own.

34:48Jasmine Enberg: I mean, brands are now looking at live shopping as part of their broader commerce strategies rather than a primary or a singular sales channel. And so being able to offer all of those services like Orca and Sapphire Studios are doing now under one roof is probably a better route to go. There's also just this bigger question of how sustainable live streaming is for creators over the long term. I mean, it could be potentially bad for live stream focused platforms like Twitch. I mean, YouTube obviously has live streaming, but it has so many other kind of parts of its business, whereas Twitch is really live streaming focused, as well as creators.

35:21Jasmine Enberg: You know, there have been many stories over the years about the burnout that comes with live streaming, obviously the burnout that comes with creators in general. But this Washington Post story from May 2025 that profiled a streamer named Emily, who live streams basically every living moment of her day. And it's been extremely lucrative for her, but it comes at huge cost to her personal life, her well-being. But in the piece, she says she worries that taking a break would be, quote, career suicide, as she called it. I mean, being a creator is hard, period. But live streaming showing up unedited frequently in front of an audience takes it to a new level.

35:56Jasmine Enberg: I mean, you're often streaming for hours, often every day. It's a lot of work and energy. And you also have to be entertaining on top of all of it. We are really excited to dive into all things live streaming with Twitch CEO Dan Clancy at our Scalable Summit on May 6. It is not too late to get your ticket. You can visit scalablepod.com slash summit for more information. Now we have my interview with Steve McClendon, product lead for podcasting at YouTube, where we dive into the company's plans to make podcasting even bigger. Hi, Steve. Welcome to Scalable. Thank you. I'm really excited to be here today.

36:30Jasmine Enberg: So YouTube has emerged as a dominant force in podcasting. Was that on purpose by design or was that sort of an accident that you guys took advantage of? Definitely by design. I think, you know, in many ways, yes, early on, maybe podcasting was sort of informally on YouTube. But over the last few years, we've really invested in helping podcasters build and grow audiences on the platform. And then also on the user side, ensuring that we are servicing great podcasts for users, but also making podcasts available in all the times and places and ways where they want to listen to their favorite podcaster.

37:07Jasmine Enberg: And I think YouTube could be credited with kickstarting the Rise of Video Podcasts. Would you agree? I would definitely agree. And in some ways, video podcasts have always been on YouTube. You know, I talk to early podcasters and, you know, they'll talk about like This Week in Tech and other shows that were effectively podcasts that have been on YouTube for a long time. But, you know, obviously recently, you know, video has really taken off. Yeah. And I think one of the effects of that is that it's really blurred the line between, what was originally an audio format to now other video formats, right?

37:38Jasmine Enberg: Like talk show style programs. So I'm curious, I think the definition now of a podcast is a bit up in the air. So do you think we'll still differentiate between a podcast and other shows or do you kind of see these mediums converging? I think we will continue to see some of the lines blurring between what is a podcast show and what is a show show. I don't know a better way of describing it. I'm thinking like challenge accepted by Michelle Kari. Like, could that be considered a podcast? I ask because we're starting to see creators upload to like Spotify, which traditionally has been kind of an audio platform who don't have podcasts, but are now on the charts.

38:14Jasmine Enberg: Where do you draw the line? Like, what makes a podcast a podcast these days? At least for us, the way that we have thought about it is a podcast at some level should be listenable. And, you know, I think of the journey of, yes, you might watch your favorite podcast on a television device, but you also, like in my case, when I'm walking my dog might want to take that podcast with me and listen to that podcast. So how does that convergence and kind of thinking about these lines blurring, how does that impact kind of the features you're rolling out or your strategy around podcasting on YouTube? I think what it means is we actually work more closely with more parts of YouTube to bring podcast experiences to those kind of times and places.

38:54And whether it be on the studio side, where a lot of the creator-facing features that have launched, think about a feature like collabs. That is a broad feature for all creators, but really beneficial for podcasters, because oftentimes podcasters are interviewing folks and really collabs help them sort of reach new audiences and leverage sort of the capabilities of the platform. But it's also things like clips and shorts and living room again, where we are really partnering with these teams. And I think of it as like, in some ways, we are expanding the notion of what a podcast is. And all of these things, I think at times are met with varying degrees of skepticism, but have proven to really expand the overall audience and overall reach of podcasting.

39:41Jasmine Enberg: Is that skepticism internally or from the public or from creators? I think from the public. You know, I think podcasting, while it does not have an official body, does have sort of, you know, gatekeepers and folks who are looking to preserve what podcasting has been. And I think there's real value in that, by the way. I don't think of that as a bad thing. But I think oftentimes the skepticism is a fear that change will be destructive to podcasting. And I think what we've seen really over the last decade is every time those fears sort of crop up, in reality, it's actually expanded podcasting. There are more people listening to podcasts today than ever before.

40:21Jasmine Enberg: You guys have rolled out weekly podcasting charts. You've allowed your creators to organize their shows into a podcast playlist, which we do at Scaleful as well, among other features. So what else can you tell us about kind of what's coming down the pipeline when it comes to podcasting tools? So we're really excited about the charts and, you know, in terms of like kind of formally supporting a podcast via playlist. I think on the studio side, we're thinking a lot about how do we make it easier for podcasters to reach new audiences. Oftentimes, podcasters rely on shorts or they rely on clips to reach those audiences.

40:55And so we are in the process of launching features in YouTube Studio, leveraging Gemini to suggest shorts, to suggest clips. And you can, as a creator, in effect, almost instantaneously create clips. Obviously, the creator has lots of control. But we think if we can make it easier for more podcasters, particularly smaller podcasters who don't have large teams around them, don't have staff to go and create shorts, if we can make it easier to do that in studio, we think that will help those podcasters find and grow their audiences on YouTube.

41:34Jasmine Enberg: Yeah. What do you make of kind of the explosion of clipping? Because I think there's mixed feelings. I mean, we talked to so many people in the industry and some people are like, no, I want to clip kind of conservatively because I don't want to give too much away. Other people have said it's an amazing kind of marketing and awareness channel. So the other downside is that people are like, oh, yeah, I watch that podcast, but they only watch the short form clips of it and not the long form. For sure. And I think, you know, clipping and video in some ways have gone hand in hand. I think this is one of the benefits of video is it allows your content to travel to maybe spaces where it couldn't travel before.

42:09I think there are two types of clips and you see creators do both of these things. And in particular, using, say, YouTube shorts and vertical video, oftentimes that's much more of a tease and much more of an intro to the content itself. And certainly even within our own data, we have seen that that tends to drive lots of long-form consumption. And an area we're invested in is how do we make it easier to bridge a user from, say, watching a short to watching a full episode? And then I think you see creators who maybe do much longer clips. I've seen 15-minute clips. And I think oftentimes that is much more of an opportunity potentially to reach an audience who won't sit down for, say, a two-hour podcast.

42:57Oftentimes the podcasters who do that have very long podcasts. What we've seen is oftentimes that's additive. And it's actually a way to maybe create content for the user who won't necessarily sit down for a two or three hour full podcast episode.

43:15Jasmine Enberg: The biggest challenge for us has just been all the conflicting advice. Like some people are like, you know, keep the podcast short, keep it long. We've landed on hour long episodes. We do kind of half of it, Jasmine and I, and then half we bring on a guest. And what we started doing is clipping kind of the interviews into their own segments as well, because then also the guest is more likely to share it. And like you said, I mean, So there's all sorts of kind of different strategies, but is there kind of a bigger or more formal role shorts and podcasting could kind of play? For sure. So, you know, I think there are direct linkages between, say, a short and a podcast episode.

43:46I think one thing that we could do better and we are investing in is improving the linkages when potentially a short isn't created by the creator themselves, but is actually created by a viewer. and in turn recommending the full episode of the podcast for users who might have consumed that short. One of the powerful things about vertical video and shorts is you actually have your own community engaged with the content and doing their own flips and things like that. So we want to take more of those implicit signals and leverage those to drive full episode consumption as well.

44:24Jasmine Enberg: You also announced a new top podcast lineup for advertisers. One of the things that is critically important for podcasters is monetization. And we think about it from the perspective of how do we help podcasters build sustainable businesses on YouTube and recognizing that ads are a really important part of that. Podcasting is also a very special ecosystem. It doesn't necessarily look like the rest of YouTube. And so selling podcast content like the rest of YouTube in some ways doesn't make as much sense. So what we wanted to do was enable our ad sales teams to kind of sell podcasts as podcasts on YouTube.

45:06And part of that is the genres and the ways that, you know, traditionally advertisers or the folks who have advertised on podcasts look for these certain types of packages. Like they want to buy a sports package or, you know, things like that. And so we want to better support that. And, you know, in turn, we have now launched these new packages for our sales teams.

45:26Jasmine Enberg: So does that go across like categories of podcasts as well, like sports or? Yeah, so it goes across genres. And, you know, what we're trying to do, again, is really make it easier for sort of the existing buyers of podcast content to also buy on YouTube in the ways that they've been buying podcasting on other platforms and in other places. Competition is also heating up. We saw Apple make a big announcement with new video podcast features, including being able to more easily switch between video and audio. Of course, Netflix has been making some aggressive moves into video podcasts. What do you see as YouTube's biggest edge in podcasting and how do you maintain it?

46:03I think YouTube really benefits from being a whole ecosystem. And so I think we think about podcasts as a sort of narrow thing, but the reality is users engage with podcasts in these different ways. We've talked about clips and shorts, but they're also engaging with other content on the platform. And if you're going deep into a topic, there might be creator content alongside that podcast content. In addition to that, we have community features. you know, the ability for users to go live. I think these are all different ways to engage and drive audience that are sort of beyond, you know, sort of like a video download or a broadcast type model that is really unique to YouTube.

46:49Jasmine Enberg: We've also seen over the past few years a shift, right? Like if you think about the Spotify, Alex Cooper deal, there was these kind of this era of exclusivity and big deals. And I think it shifted back to creators wanting to be, you know, available across platforms. Alex Cooper now is doing super well on YouTube. But some of these recent Netflix deals like with Spotify are not allowing podcasters to post full episodes on YouTube anymore. How big of an issue is that for YouTube? And are you seeing, I mean, there was some interesting Bloomberg reporting about kind of engagement falling for some of these shows in the early stages, at least via third party data.

47:20Jasmine Enberg: But what do you make of that? Our general point of view is we want creators to succeed. And I think different creators will have, you know, sort of different business models that will work well for them. You know, I think of it less about from the YouTube perspective and much more from within the ecosystem. I think you'll see a breadth of different models. And, you know, we've seen some of these models sort of ebb and flow over time. But ultimately, you know, if the creator is finding success and it's a business model that works for them, I think, you know, we celebrate that. You know, we're not overly focused on, you know, what a particular competitor is doing.

47:57We're really focused on how do we continue to do what's right for the podcaster on YouTube? How do we continue to build features for their audiences and improve the experience here?

48:08Jasmine Enberg: We saw this with streamers as well, right? There was the battle between YouTube and Twitch for exclusive streamers. I mean, do you expect this to play out with podcasting again? I mean, do you think YouTube could entertain doing some sort of exclusive podcast deals as Netflix is doing this? It's really not something that we're thinking about. I guess I would never say never because the world always changes on us. But, you know, I think we're much more focused on the creators being able to build sustainable businesses to own their IP and to sort of leverage all of the things that YouTube has to offer.

48:42Jasmine Enberg: As podcasting has exploded alongside the broader creator economy, what do you see kind of as breaking through on YouTube? I mean, what trends are you seeing in podcasting? I think as much as like AI tools have helped and kind of lowered the barrier to entries, that means more and more people, you know, can come into the space. There's more content, more competition. So what are you seeing really succeed on YouTube these days? I think in some ways, the same things that have succeeded in the past continue to succeed today, which is authentic voices, connecting with their audiences, the regularity of, you know, being sort of like publishing on a regular cadence and, you know, being committed to your podcast.

49:23You know, I think all of those things continue to be true.

49:25Jasmine Enberg: Are there certain shows that you're kind of following that you think are leading the charge or that people should kind of pay attention to? I mean, in the same way that, right, Mr. Beast is such a dominant force on YouTube and so many people kind of emulate him. Like, are there certain shows that you're seeing on the podcasting side? I've been watching this Korean podcast, which is My Korean is Not Great. And what has been really interesting to me about that is they are a radio broadcaster who has really fully embraced YouTube. They drive like over a million plus views every episode. They have this incredible community of people who watch it live and are engaged with it and talking to each other.

50:04And I think that's a really sort of exciting space and in some ways not a way that podcasters have thought about their shows. You know, oftentimes podcasters have thought about the podcast as, you know, I make a thing. It, you know, is an MP3 file or a video and it goes out as a broadcast and it's this static thing. And the creators who sort of are embracing the live aspects of YouTube and the community aspects of YouTube, I think that's a really kind of fascinating space. The Taylor Swift showing up on New Heights. if you were on the live stream at all and you saw how the fan community was engaged with the content with each other as well.

50:46It's just a different way of engaging with a podcast than you would have ever imagined a podcast, say like five years ago. And so those kinds of things are actually pretty exciting to me because it portends like a way that podcasting just continues to evolve and grow and change.

51:02Jasmine Enberg: For people who want to start a podcast or want to grow on YouTube, what advice do you have? Some of the advice is like old advice, which is have a voice, be authentic, speak to a particular audience. You're not trying to speak to a billion podcast users. You're trying to speak to your particular audience. One thing that sort of gets lost on YouTube is, you know, you mentioned Mr. Beast earlier, and I think everybody is like, oh, how do I get 100 million views? And the reality is we get more watch time from videos with under 100 ,000 views than we do from videos with 100 million. Audiences can be very sort of niche, right?

51:38And again, like being authentic to yourself, speaking to a particular audience, being consistent, you know, those are all the things that ultimately drive success on the platform. I'd love to say that there's some magic bullet or some, you know, something that we could do, but in reality, it's the same things that made you successful, probably in RSS podcasting that makes you successful on YouTube. You know, I think YouTube has a few more tools in the toolkit in terms of the algorithm and being able to drive discovery, but ultimately success still really boils down to those kind of core features.

52:09Jasmine Enberg: Thank you so much, Steve, for joining us. Thank you, Kai. Thanks so much for joining us and we'll see you here next Thursday.