Piers Morgan Wants a Billion-Dollar Media Company and Corporate Natalie on Her Career and AI

0:00Jasmine Enberg: Hi, everyone. This is Scalable, a weekly show about the business of the creator economy. I'm Kaya Yurieff. And I'm Jasmine Enberg. Every Thursday, we take you beyond the headlines to tell you what's happening, what it means, and why it matters. Piers Morgan has a podcast, but don't call him a podcaster. And why B2B influencer marketing is bigger than just LinkedIn. Plus, an interview with Corporate Natalie, everyone's favorite corporate influencer. Bill, I can see you. Can you see me? Sorry if you're some splishy splashes, team. Just hopping in the shower here. What, you've never seen a girl shave her legs?

0:30We lost the Brigham deal. When you get into the benefits portal, you're going to plug in your first and last name. Oh, and then you're going to add your company ID.

0:42Jasmine Enberg: Hi, Jasmine. Hey, Kaya. And hi, everyone. Thank you so much for tuning into our weekly show about the creator economy. Okay, Kaya, you were in London last week for the podcast show. How was it? It looked so great from all the photos and videos that I saw. I was very impressed with this conference. Everyone going in was telling me that this is like the best podcast focused conference. I think it's also a great excuse for people in the US to fly to London, which is always a treat. But it's been around for a few years. This is my first time going. I'd actually never heard about it before this year.

1:12Jasmine Enberg: I hadn't either. But I was invited to moderate a panel with Piers Morgan. So I could not pass that opportunity. You cannot say no to that. I also spoke on a very fun panel with Patreon. But in general, I mean, the weather was great. There were super interesting people. It was easy to kind of bump into people. I mean, it felt much more like an expo. Like all these companies had booths. Companies like Canon were selling equipment, which I almost bought because I was like, I need a new podcast mic desperately, but I didn't have time. But in general, like the panels were packed. I mean, the first day I flew in in the morning and I got to the conference around 4 p.m.

1:48Jasmine Enberg: and it was still packed. Like people were in meetings, people were taking notes and really engaged, which is great. And apparently last year, things were much more audio focused. And of course, this year, unsurprisingly, it was all about video podcasting. That makes a lot of sense, given the way the industry has been going. I am so excited to hear about your panel with Pierce Morgan. I mean, I feel like he's one of those people who just consistently manages to remain relevant in both good and bad ways. And also, I imagine he's quite the interview. I mean, it was a fun one. There is a lot to unpack today.

2:18Jasmine Enberg: We are also going to be discussing B2B creators and B2B influencer marketing today. It's the perfect opportunity to go a little bit deeper on the topic because our guest today is corporate Natalie, who is one of my absolute favorite creators who books fun at corporate culture. And she's really helped bridge the gap between the creator economy and B2B. She tells us why B2B isn't just about LinkedIn anymore and what her green flags and red flags are when working with brands. But first, a message from our sponsor. The biggest brand deals in the creator economy are happening at Cam Lyons. And this year, the Lyons Creators Program takes center stage at Palais Beach.

2:49Learn from creators like Max Klamenko, Tejas Huller, GK Berry, Hannah Stocking, Stephen Bartlett, and more. And be in the room with brand teams building partnerships with creators, including Dove, Gap, and DoorDash.

3:00Jasmine Enberg: Beyond keynotes and panels, there will also be dedicated networking opportunities. Events like the Creator-Marketer Mixer are planned specifically to get you in front of key decision makers. In partnership with Adobe, Lions Creators is the place to connect, create, and curate future opportunities. It takes place from June 22nd to the 26th in Cannes, France. Okay, Kaya, tell me everything. I want to know all about your session with Piers Morgan. Okay, so unsurprisingly, he was very entertaining on stage. He was peppering in some jokes. He got some audience laughs. He did get some boos when he walked on stage.

3:32Jasmine Enberg: But this also very well could have been because the host introduced him as a massive Arsenal fan. And we know people in the UK have very strong feelings about their football teams. He was also wearing an Arsenal shirt under his blazer. So I feel like that one might have been on him a little bit. Yes. And I opened the session by saying like, Piers Morgan, you're a podcaster now. And he bristled. He did not like that label. Why? What did he say? Well, first, let me back up. I mean, I'm sure listeners know Piers Morgan. He's had such a long and varied career in media. And he's really been able to stand the test of time, right?

4:07Jasmine Enberg: Like he started in British tabloids. He became a newspaper editor. He went on to win, you know, Donald Trump's Celebrity Apprentice back in 2008. He was a judge on America's Got Talent. And eventually he landed his own show on CNN as well. He has been a very polarizing figure in media. I mean, he's been fired for multiple jobs. He was the editor of the Daily Mirror when the paper was implicated in the major phone hacking scandal. And he's had public beef with Meghan Markle. I mean, he's never been one to shy away from controversy. And people either really like him or really don't like him. So to answer your question, because of this longtime career, it seems that he thinks that a podcaster label is maybe not quite the right label for him.

4:43Jasmine Enberg: But here's what he said exactly. So I said, you're a podcaster now. He goes, I'm a what? I'm like, you're a podcaster. You're a creator. He goes, I'm, quote, a globally renowned broadcaster and journalist. The word podcaster, no offense, but it carries certain connotations about how you dress, what food you eat, sometimes what football teams you support. I bet there's some top man fans in here as well, right? You see, this is the problem with podcasters. No real taste. We are a podcast, but actually we're mainly a YouTube channel. So that's how you answer that question. But he did admit that they are a podcast in there.

5:17He just doesn't like being called a podcast. I know. So funny. I am dead at that entire answer to your question. But mostly what football teams you support, because the booze obviously really got to him at the beginning of that session. Also, do you get the Topman reference?

5:32Jasmine Enberg: Okay, so I didn't in the moment because I was just trying to process that answer in real time, but I did used to shop at Topshop back in the day. So it clicked later. Topman is the men's clothing counterpart of Topshop, where I also used to shop when I lived in the UK. And both Topman and Topshop were very cool at that time, but clearly not anymore, or at least according to Fierce Morgan. I mean, it's so interesting, right? Because I definitely wouldn't associate podcasters with any of those things like a specific football team, a specific clothing brand, or like what food people are eating. But I do think he's right that podcasters do have a certain connotation to them.

6:15I mean, my mind immediately goes to white right wing man, even as podcasters ourselves, like we know that the industry is much more diverse than that.

6:24Jasmine Enberg: Yeah, I mean, you immediately think like Joe Rogan or Theo Vaughn. So I understand. For some reason, it's always Andrew Huberman who's in my head. And I don't know why. Even before Joe Rogan. Okay, well, any of those three, I understand why. And no shade to them. But I just think it's a certain type. And here's Morgan, maybe just wants to put himself in a different bucket. I mean, I can understand that. But anyway, if you haven't been following this chapter of Piers Morgan's career, he now has a YouTube channel and media company that is very fittingly called Uncensored with more than 4 million subscribers.

6:55That might also actually be why he vaulted the word podcaster. I mean, Uncensored started as a linear TV program for a fast channel in the UK called Talk TV that ran from 2022 to 2024. It also had a YouTube channel. And so what was happening was that not a lot of people were tuning into the program on TV, but the show would get millions of views on YouTube. So Morgan ended up leaving Talk TV and worked out a deal to keep the YouTube channel and launched into independent media.

7:25Jasmine Enberg: Yeah, and he talked about that on stage. I mean, he was very clear that like the linear TV program didn't work, but the YouTube channel and the full episodes, it's not like the clips were, you know, going viral, but the full episodes were getting views on YouTube. So there really hasn't been a ton of kind of in-depth coverage on his business. So I was excited to ask him more about that and kind of his ambitions for it. And he broke quite a bit of news on stage. He said that Uncensored is close to closing an investment round, valuing the company at $130 million. Earlier this year, he hired Rashida Jones, the ex-president of MSNBC, as his CEO, which is a pretty notable move.

7:59Jasmine Enberg: I mean, for a media veteran, especially coming from more of a left-leaning program to join, I think it shows how much the creator economy is becoming professionalized. We did a graphic and timeline in our newsletter a few months or weeks ago. I don't know. What is time? Recently, we did it. And it shows how so many of these veteran executives are joining to become CEOs or other senior figures. And Rashida Jones is a really big name. I mean, that's huge. Yes. Piers Morgan also said he now has a 15-person team. I also love this tidbit. His assistant, Kerry, has been with him for 30 years. And to prepare and kind of bring myself up to speed on all things Piers Morgan recently, I was listening to some recent interviews he did, and he talked on a Semaphore podcast last year, and he claimed that Kerry can look at him and figure out what he wants to eat.

8:51Jasmine Enberg: So when I met her backstage, I was like, so excited. I was like, oh my God, you're Carrie. Like, I was so excited to be here. And I brought up that story. And I was like, is that true? And he goes, oh, but she brought me the worst breakfast ever this morning. I guess she brought him like really bad eggs. So anyway, he does talk about other matters as well. So he does have big ambitions. This feels like the most wide ranging interview of all time, Oh, yeah. Also, that that part was backstage. And then he brought up the eggs and get on stage. So I guess. And then he like pointed to her. And so then everyone was like mobbing her after being like, Oh, my God, you're Pierce Morgan's assistant.

9:30Jasmine Enberg: Anyway, he also didn't want to have a prep call, right? So there was no prep call. So I don't know, which like makes it easy and hard because you can just I don't know, I could take it in so many different directions. Yes. But then he can also taken in so many different directions. He did outline kind of the big ambitions he has for his company. He said that within five years, he wants to build a billion dollar company. And then he said, I want to sail off on my yacht on an island. And I was like, do you actually though? And he was like, well, I don't know if I could really retire, but he, it does.

10:01Jasmine Enberg: And he was like in my arsenal shirt. So it was all about the arsenal shirt. But obviously that is a very big ambition. So the way he wants to do that is to build a network of shows under him with different hosts in different categories, history, true crime, maybe even sports. He floated the Royals, right? He's a long time, I think, Stan of the Royal family. And he said he's going to test the waters with a FIFA show around the World Cup. So again, like lots of newsy tidbits that he dropped on stage. Yeah. I mean, honestly, he's not the first creator to kind of go this route to try to expand their businesses by going into different topics and formats and working with other creators.

10:40But it's really interesting because we haven't really seen creator-led podcast networks work very well so far. So take Alex Cooper's Unwell, for example. It really hasn't had another hit beyond Call Her Daddy. And then there's The Daily Wire, which produces the Ben Shapiro show. It's probably the most popular of its shows. And it's really struggling right now, to say the least. And there's probably a reason why Joe Rogan, who is arguably the biggest podcaster, never launched a network under him. Or why you see Stephen Bartlett. so far choosing to invest in individual creators like Hot Smart Rich or build out tech to support podcasting versus launch a network of his own.

11:20On the other hand, what seems to have been working better so far is companies launching podcast networks that then bring together a variety of talent. So if you look at Vox Media, for example, they just sold their podcast network and other parts of the business for about 300 million. It has so many high profile shows with well-known hosts. I mean, think about Kara Swisher or Scott Galloway, both of whom I love. Then there's Maria Sharapova, Esther Peral. I mean, the list just goes on and on. And I think, you know, when you're thinking about why this is happening, a big part of that is that the podcasters who have launched their own network so far, they just don't have the experience or the infrastructure of an established media company like Box, for example, even as they're bringing on seasoned executives like Rashida Jones.

12:08Also, podcasters are really big personalities. And that's, you know, a good thing. But it also has seemingly gotten in the way of building out some of these companies. And I could potentially see that being an issue for Pierce Morgan as well, just kind of given his history.

12:24Jasmine Enberg: We did talk about this on stage. I also need to shout out Max Cutler, who is the founder of PAVE, who organized this panel with Pierce. And he was able to get some thoughts on stage, even though Kyrs was doing a lot of the talking. That is very impressive. No, it is. And Pave is another example. I mean, they've built out a really impressive roster of shows. They don't really call themselves a podcast network because everything that they're doing is video shows and the lines are blurring so much. But they do kind of go into that category of podcast network. They work with kind of big names like Khloe Kardashian, but also creators like Morgan Absher, who hosts Two Hot Takes, which is a very funny Reddit-focused podcast.

12:58Jasmine Enberg: I actually interviewed her at Cam Lyons last year. But the clear reason why Piers Morgan and Alex Cooper are doing this, even though it hasn't had a good track record, is because you can only scale yourself so far. And what we've seen happen is that, like you said, I mean, it's hard for these talent to kind of grow other shows to the same level as theirs. Whereas if you look at like Pave, Max Cutler is not a creator who's founding this. So he sees that as an advantage because he can bring together kind of all this other talent, which maybe doesn't, to your point, like compete with each other in the same way as when you have a network with a creator on top.

13:33Jasmine Enberg: Another interesting tidbit from the panel that I really was excited to talk about is that Piers Morgan and Uncensored has a recent deal with Time magazine. So I asked him about that as well. The two are partnering on an ongoing long form interview series with notable figures. And I'm like, you already have such a big brand. So right, why partner with Time? But he wants their brand. And we've talked about this a lot. I mean, the Time magazine brand has so much legitimacy. And I'm sure Time also wants his audience. I mean, 4 million plus on YouTube is a very big, big audience. And I'd argue that Time also has an audience that Piers Morgan wants to reach, too.

14:13I mean, maybe not in terms of size. I don't have those numbers off the top of my head, but definitely in quality. Like, the readers and the viewers of Time are probably somewhat different from viewers of Uncensored on YouTube. But yes, I mean, I agree. I think the primary part of all of this is the prestige and the legitimacy, because we see this all the time in the creator economy. I mean, just think about creators wanting to be on the red carpet at Cannes Film Festival, campaigning for Emmys. I mean, TVPN took out that billboard for it. Now you're seeing podcasters writing columns for newspapers like the Wall Street Journal, even YouTube, which is kind of in the same boat as all these creators, has nabbed Oscars rights.

14:51So they're just really looking for that legitimacy, that approval from the traditional world, even as we're seeing so much more attention shift really into digital and creators.

15:01Jasmine Enberg: And Piers Morgan is such an interesting example because he comes from the traditional media world, right? Whereas a lot of these other creators are trying to break into it. And he doesn't want to be called a podcaster. Yes. But it does seem like he wants to keep a foot in the door still in traditional media, right? But what was also interesting is he said on stage that he thinks traditional media will, quote, be dead within 10 years maximum. So hopefully his time deal is not for 10 years, if that's his prediction. Yeah, I mean, it's such a catchy thing to say, but it's also, you know, not exactly what we're seeing play out.

15:32It's also pretty contradictory, just kind of given all of the things that, you know, Piers Morgan is working on and that we've talked about, including this Time magazine deal. And we talk about this so much from the creator and the consumer perspective in that what we're really seeing right now is convergence between the traditional and the digital worlds. We have creators striking Hollywood deals. You also have people now turning back to analog media, also to live events. But I think the one piece that's kind of missing from this conversation and what we really haven't dug deeply into yet either is that if and when traditional media dies really depends on where the ad dollars go, not necessarily consumer behavior.

16:09Like, yes, ultimately, these two things do align, but ad dollars tend to take longer to catch up to where consumers are. And if you look at some of the estimates, I mean, like from places like eMarketer or Madison and Wall, which are both ad consultancy or research firms, or Michael Beach, who writes a really great newsletter called Screen Wars. I mean, they show streaming TV overtaking linear sometime between 2028 and 2030. So that's only two to four years from now. So obviously, there is this massive shift happening now away from traditional media. So nobody is wrong to point to that. But if you take Michael Beach's forecast, which I thought was the most bullish, even there, TV ad spending, meaning linear TV ad spending, does not go to zero by 2025, which is about 10 years from now.

16:56Like, yes, there is this massive decline from 2023. But again, it's still not at zero. So it isn't entirely dead. And then when you're seeing, you know, all of these traditional media players, including Time, right, now partnering with creators or building out their digital strategies or their YouTube strategies, what we're going to see is more of this convergence. I mean, we're seeing that already happen, even with traditional broadcasters like NBC and their streaming services like Peacock. So it's hard to pinpoint an exact moment of death for linear or traditional media, especially because all of these things really are converging from all sides.

17:32Jasmine Enberg: One thing I wonder a lot about as a CNN alum, though, is like you saw like Stephen Colbert, right? Like he did his last show. I mean, those shows are so expensive to produce. I mean, same thing. Like if you think about the CNN sets and the staff and all of the money, like even if the ad dollars are still there, can they sustain the show? Like that's also like a whole nother question. Like I'm so curious what CNN looks like five to 10 years from now, right? Like are they still going to be having these massive sets? Like, I don't know. We did a status, which is a great media newsletter by a CNN alum, Oliver Darcy, had a scoop recently that CNN executives had creators come into the newsroom to like talk to them.

18:14Jasmine Enberg: So I'm very curious to see how this all plays out. I mean, completely agree with you on the convergence. I mean, you mentioned the Wall Street Journal example. So Ben Gilbert and David Rosenthal, who are the hosts of the business podcast Acquired, are going to be writing a regular column in the journal, which is so interesting. and it will include an excerpt from their episodes, which if you're not familiar with Acquired, they run episodes for multiple hours. It's almost like an audio book with the deep dive of a company, right? Visa, JP Morgan, you know, they dive deep into these companies and they tested the waters with this in April where they wrote a column for the journal about Ferrari.

18:48Jasmine Enberg: So I assume it must have done well since they turned it into a more regular thing now. To your point about what these TV shows will look like five to 10 years from now, I mean, I think they're going to look different. Like they're going to have to. I mean, even Jake Tapper, remember, he filmed one of his shows from his living room, right? Wasn't it his office? No, from his office. Yeah. Was it his home office? No, his office at work. No, I mean, and I'm not surprised. They had Anderson Cooper with like more of like a podcast radio style mic, and it got so much backlash. Like they were like, you're and again, it was very still highly produced.

19:23Jasmine Enberg: I mean, they're still like in the big CNN office, right? Like he wasn't like, you know, calling it in from home, but he did anchor for a period of time from his work office. Yeah. And this is the part that, you know, people don't really like to talk about, but they got backlash probably because that's the age range and demographic of the CNN audience. I mean, they're older. And I think probably on the other side, too, you had younger people who are thinking that this is cringe or whatever. And CNN is just trying too hard, which I understand as well there. But I mean, ultimately, I think it's the same thing, right?

19:53We're going to have to see convergence in actually how these shows are put together and produced just the same way that we're seeing it in terms of, you know, what people are watching and where ad dollars are going. But there's been a couple of other examples of this, too. The Washington Post Creator Network, as well as CNN's Creator Show. We have a whole newsletter from a few months ago that goes deeper on this. Another recent example, though, Condé Nast is now open to working with Substack writers, according to its CEO, Roger Lynch. He told that to Business Insider in a recent interview. What he said was that the rise of independent writers, quote, does make us think differently about how we operate.

20:31We have to be more creative, he said. So definitely a lot more to come on those fronts. And we're expecting more deals like this to come.

20:40Jasmine Enberg: Yeah. And even Piers Morgan on stage was like, yeah, there's probably going to be more deals like this. So everyone's on board. All right. Moving on to our next topic, the B2B creator economy. B2B influencer marketing has become a hot topic, especially in Silicon Valley, where AI companies are clamoring to partner with creators. But it's not just AI companies. B2B companies from CRMs and other software makers are figuring out their creator strategies. We're joined by Natalie Marshall, better known as Corporate Natalie, to talk about some of the opportunities and challenges in the space. But first, a little bit of background.

21:10I think for years, the narrative has been that B2B is behind B2C when it comes to the creator economy and influencer marketing in particular. At this point, though, almost all B2B brands are now working with creators to some degree. The data on this is varied. It ranges anywhere from 75 % to 94 % of B2B marketers who say they're working with creators, depending on the source. But no matter how you look at it, it's now roughly the same as for B2C marketers, meaning that B2B has caught up to B2C, at least in this regard. But I would argue still that B2B creator strategies are far less sophisticated than B2C.

21:48If you just look at the platforms, for example, most people still associate B2B creators only with LinkedIn. It is definitely the top platform, but there's so much more to B2B marketing than just that. I mean, as the B2B buyer has gotten younger, it's probably now the same person who's scrolling on TikTok or Instagram on their lunch break who's involved in the buying decision. So ignoring all of these other social platforms is a mistake. And, you know, that's something that B2C marketers have known for a long time, and they rarely have just a one platform strategy.

22:22Jasmine Enberg: Yeah, that really stuck out to me from our conversation with Natalie as well. I mean, she talked a lot about how this combination of Instagram and LinkedIn is actually much more powerful than using just LinkedIn alone. And we heard something similar from AI and tech creator Meghna Dar, too, who told us that while LinkedIn is her core platform, Instagram is now growing faster. I mean, she's had some viral hits on Instagram Reels. And as a side note, we actually hosted a LinkedIn live event with her this week. We'll have more on that next week. But it was part of a test for paid events featuring creators that LinkedIn is launching.

22:51Jasmine Enberg: And it's part of the platform's big bet that it's making on creators this year. According to a report from Business Insider, the company wants to host 4 ,000 or more events like this with creators per year. Yeah, so two things there. I mean, obviously, creators are a huge priority for LinkedIn. And I think live video and events just make so much more sense for LinkedIn than short video does. When you think about B2B video content, you think of an educational webinar, not a funny 30-second clip, right? And there's data that supports that. So from top-ranked marketing, some of the most effective or the most effective types of B2B marketing were social media posts at 56%, followed by in-person events at 39%, and then webinars, interviews, or interactive content at 34%.

23:36And that was ahead of regular videos. So you can see that that is a really popular type of marketing content there. I continue to be shocked by how many people love a webinar.

23:46Jasmine Enberg: Like even after the pandemic, like people really love it. And I'm happy that they like it. But I did so many of them. And I know you did so many of them as well. But they like it. This crowd likes it. No, they love it. And people are so engaged in the webinars too. Like the amount of people who would be chatting in the comments, leaving questions that we would have to answer afterwards as well, which I mean, was always a lot of fun because the questions are always so great. But I was always just shocked at how how engaged and interested people were in it. And none of this is to say that there isn't a place for funny B2B clips or content.

24:21I mean, corporate Natalie is such a good example, but those just seem better suited for, say, Instagram or maybe even TikTok than LinkedIn. I also think with live events, it really gives LinkedIn a way to stand out and separate itself from the other platforms that it's ultimately going to have to compete with even more. Like everybody has a short video feed now and LinkedIn just is never going to do it as well as TikTok does or Reels, which, you know, as we've talked about in this podcast has gotten really good now. I mean, I think text is obviously another really big differentiator for LinkedIn, but there's only so far that you can really take that too.

24:55Jasmine Enberg: Yeah. And I think pivoting a little bit to something else that Natalie said that stuck out to me was that B2B briefs from brands are still very basic. They're stale. Like it's a lot of text heavy posts on LinkedIn to your point. And that can mean like, you know, sticking to strict talking points, a ton of calls to action, not a lot of creativity. So she's trying to shake that up. Yeah, I mean, B2B advertising isn't exactly known for being the most creative. I mean, take Can Lions, for example, they didn't launch a B2B creative award until 2021. So, you know, it's been behind B2C in that regard.

25:29In fairness, though, I do think a lot of that comes from and speaks to some of the challenges within B2B marketing. I mean, these are often really high ticket, high consideration purchases. So things like credibility, trust and expertise and creators are much more important than say, you know, a creator who is selling a lip gloss on TikTok, for example, and finding these people with that expertise, with that credibility, with authority can be really challenging. I mean, there are so many hacks and fake experts out there, including on LinkedIn. Either way, I mean, there's obviously a ton of opportunity for B2B and creators.

26:04And it's not just for working with creators who are those experts who, you know, have built that authority, but also creators who can make B2B fun. And we're seeing that happen more and more now.

26:15Jasmine Enberg: Yes, and for sure. Like you said, these B2B buyers are people they like to scroll, they like to have a laugh, right? Like even though it's a more serious topic. But one pocket growth that we're seeing, unsurprisingly, is a ton of interest now in AI. So many of these startups are raising massive amounts of funding. So they have money to spend on marketing, and they need to because the competition is so fierce, both for consumers and enterprise customers. Yeah, totally. And a lot of them are spending that money on creators. I mean, did you see the reel that Alex Earle posted the other day of her visiting Microsoft?

26:48Jasmine Enberg: Yeah, it was such a good example, I think, of bridging that gap between B2C and B2B worlds. and she approached it just like she does with any other travel vlog. She showed some of her day, right? Like she talked about doing a Q &A with the marketing team, but she also got a tour of the headquarters and showed like interesting tidbits, right? Of like there was a room that's like the quietest room. Oh my God. Silent room, right? This was the craziest part. We're going into the quietest place in the world at negative 20.35 decibels. I was a little scared when we went in here Because they said more than like an hour in here in pure silence.

27:24You will lose your mind. You'll hear your heartbeat. You'll eventually start to hear your blood flow. Now there's not so much echoing. Here we go. There you go. I would love to go in that room. So I love everything in silence. And you had just sent me that reel from Alex Earl, where she had been talking about how, you know, she's always in silence, basically, like when she's getting her clam down, when she's driving her car, which is very opposite from what you hear from a lot of people. But I'm the same way. But point being is what was really interesting is then when she posted this video of her at Microsoft, it's kind of like hearkening on the same theme.

28:01So it just felt very organic and very natural. So I thought it was super well done.

28:05Jasmine Enberg: Yeah. And she showed like these molds of ears that they have where they like test different products. And like, it was very interesting. And it was fast paced. And it was a fun it was a it was a fun video. Microsoft and these other AI companies are paying creators upwards of$600 ,000 for long-term partnerships, according to CNBC. So there's big money going into these deals with creators. This interview with corporate Natalie was so fun. She is so funny. I was laughing out loud at the end. She really is as funny as she is in her short-form videos. We talked to Natalie about the opportunities in AI, as well as her rise to fame on TikTok during the pandemic, how her career has evolved since then, and what makes her new agency, expand collab different from traditional ad agencies.

28:48Jasmine Enberg: Corporate Natalie, welcome to Scalable. We are so excited to have you. Thank you for having me. I am such a fan of both of you. I can't believe I'm here. I honestly consume every piece of content you both put out. So thank you for allowing me on your podcast. Stop. Thank you so much. That's so nice. We're both very early fans of your content on TikTok during the pandemic. Obviously, when you were spoofing work from home, corporate culture, all of that. I actually think it might be time for you to own this initiative. I am empowering you to take ownership of this. And I was actually scrolling back and looking at our DMs because I was like, I feel like we've DMed over the years and I wanted to see what we're talking about.

29:28Jasmine Enberg: So we initially connected because I mentioned you in an article in 2021. And then I wanted to shout out a very funny one because I had responded to one of your stories about like being out of pocket during work from home. and I was like oh my god I just was at the hair salon and my boss facetimed me because it was because because it was that era where we had to like I hadn't gone in person to the information so they had to verify my passport so like I'm literally in full foils and did you pick up no obviously not and I'd responded because I think your story was like something about being out of pocket.

30:06Jasmine Enberg: And then and I told you that story. And you were like, wow, incredibly out of pocket. So anyway, oh, I love that. Take us back to kind of those early days. Like, why did you start posting on TikTok in the first place? I remember distinctly the day I downloaded TikTok was the same day that I posted my first video. I was just so excited. I saw a few videos, I learned the scroll function. And I was like, I kind of want to do this. And I think that comes from me just being such a doer in life. I in high school joined the improv comedy troupe, zero improv experience. In college, I launched a jewelry business without knowing how to make a necklace.

30:38And same with TikTok. I was like, I texted my friends my first video. And I said, by the way, guys, I'm going to be famous just so you know. They were like, shut up, Natalie. No, you're not. But it ended up being the case, which is crazy. And it all just happened really fast. I think a lot of creators who started in COVID say the same thing where you were just seeing this immense growth, like 5 ,000 to 10 ,000 followers a day. It was all moving so quickly. And the brand deals and the sponsorships came quickly as well. And I think at this time, I kind of positioned myself as this B2B creator that I still identify as with the work from home jokes that I still make to this day, still part of the shtick.

31:16But yes, it happened fast and it's grown into now six years of making content, which is crazy. Where did you get the idea from? I mean, obviously, we were all kind of working from home at the time. I mean, there was lockdown orders in place. But like what inspired you to do the, you know, work place humor kind of skits and content? Yes, I miss the days when inspiration was unfolding right before my eyes on every single Zoom call that I was on. I was working at Deloitte and consulting and was used to traveling across the country and racking up airline miles and hotel points and all these things.

31:48And then I was trapped in my tiny apartment and everyone else was experiencing the same thing. And I was seeing it through this window on my computer. You know, my boss with his wife walking behind him with a towel on and they both scream and he frantically tries to turn off his computer. Like all these things were happening and I built characters and kind of this fake world around the things that were real in my life. People are always like, is Bruce a real character? Bruce was the kind of OG boss character in my videos. And of course my boss wasn't Bruce. No, I would never make fun of him like that directly.

32:18You said that brand deals came pretty quickly. At what point did you realize that this was a real business? I'll speak to my first brand deal with a very reputable company, Twisted Tea. I was so excited they reached out to me. They offered me$500 to post a video across all of my channels. I thought I was rich. I thought I was the richest person in the world. I'm like, this is amazing. Let's do it. I posted the video and I got a lot of comments up front that were like, wow, I didn't know this was an ad and this is really organic. This is still really funny. It was getting a lot of shares. and as brand deals started to come, I kind of built this corporate Natalie kind of branded content methodology, which was, I really want it to feel like an organic part of my channel and if it doesn't and if it sticks out like a sore thumb, it's a bad video.

33:02I realized it was a business. Probably there was this moment when I went to a Paycom commercial shoot and they invited me out to Kansas City to do a three-day commercial shoot for ads to run on TV and they wanted to kind of bring TikTok to TV. They shot vertically. We shot like 20 spots over the span of three days and I had never been on set before. And I remember they were asking me a lot of questions about my background in my initial work from home bedroom. They were like, what's that lamp? Like, what's this bookshelf? And I was sending them all these links to my, you know, Ikea furniture at the time.

33:39And I showed up on set. And in the meantime, I had my roommate acting as my fake assistant. because I wanted to seem legit. Like I'm the talent. I can't show up alone. That's crazy. And, you know, she shows up with a clipboard. I'm like, what are you doing? Are you role-playing? Like we don't need a clipboard. She really got into it. I love it. She got so into it. And we show up on set and they had rebuilt my entire bedroom, a complete set of my corporate Natalie OG bedroom from my San Francisco apartment. And it was this moment of just like, wow, this is crazy. There is a crew of 60 people watching me.

34:17I'm the only person in these spots. I get to just do my thing and improvise and be on set and be on TV. And it was a moment in my career that was, I realized this was legit. And I think shortly after I left my full-time job and took this full-time, I was out of PTO as well, but yes. How many years was this since you first started creating content? Like how long did it take you to get to this point? It's a good question. This was probably two years into my content creation journey. I really waited until the last possible second. I mentioned I was out of PTO. I had saved up enough money to where if this whole thing came crashing down, I had a year of insurance built in.

34:56And right when I quit, I made my full-time hire. I knew I didn't want to do this alone. I didn't want to be alone in my bedroom every single day. I wanted to build a team and build a company and treat this seriously and have some accountability with someone reporting to me and be a manager in the space. And so I brought on Annie, who's my now my brand director. She started as my brand manager and we've been working together for over four years.

35:20Jasmine Enberg: How big is your team now? We have four full time, including myself. I have a full time content specialist who came on about a year ago, who helps edit content, trend track, post everything you see that goes live on the page. She's she's the one posting it. And then I have Annie, who's now my brand director, who runs all sponsored content, brand direction, PR, kind of the overall corporate Natalie brand. And then I have a COO of Expand CoLab, which is my new agency, B2B Influence Marketing Agency that I think we'll talk about today. And then I have a bunch of part-time help, newsletter writers, editors for YouTube, everything in between.

35:59The team gets very big, very fast. I think one thing that's unique about me is we're not signed to a talent agency. We have no true agent representation. We do it all in-house. So every brand deal you've ever seen is from us sourcing it or an inbound lead. And we kind of have built our own media company through that.

36:18Jasmine Enberg: So walk us through your business. What are the biggest revenue drivers? So my core business is the corporate Natalie content that you see every day. I committed to posting every day, I think two and a half years ago. I said, I want something to go live on some channel every single day. And I have never let that slip. So you see a corporate Natalie video, probably too many of them, but you will see something every day from me. That is the core business. Obviously, brand deals are a large part of revenue, for sure. I had a podcast with corporate bro Ross, who Jasmine, you know, and met at a conference.

36:48We winded down demoted, but that was a really exciting time. We kind of released like a season of it, which was really fun to do and dip my toes in the podcast water. I'm sure we could talk offline about everything you all do every day. So we did the podcast thing. I have a newsletter that we release a newsletter every Wednesday. It's called Working Girls Guide. I do a lot of advising for early stage startups on social media strategies, how to activate influencers. And I also have a virtual assistant company that I co-founded with the aforementioned roommate from our San Francisco apartment who was acting as my assistant at the time.

37:23We source virtual assistants who are US-based to content creators who are trying to juggle having a full-time job, doing a bunch of things at once. a lot of our VAs kind of act as that talent manager role when before a creator is ready to sign with an agency. And that's a still fully operating and functioning business. And my newest venture is Expand CoLab, which is the influencer marketing agency that we launched about six months ago. So I wanted to dig in a little bit deeper into sort of the branded content that you do. And I actually played this game with Corporate Bro on stage at that conference where I met him.

37:55So I thought it would be fun to bring it back. It's called Green Flag, Red Flag. So what's one green flag when you're working with brands and what is one red flag? I have a bunch. We could play this all day. A green flag is one core CTA. What is the one thing you want to get across with this video? I've seen briefs with five calls to action and it's like, I'm trying to do this in 30 seconds. I don't even have the time to say all of those words, let alone make it funny. So I would say briefs that have one call to action is a huge green flag. And then I think a red flag on the other side of that is when brands say, I want you to be your authentic self.

38:31Do you? We chose you for a reason and they don't mean it. The brands that say, you don't like the word authentic. I can't often say I'm over it. No, we wrote a whole argument in our newsletter, I think in November about how we need to retire the word authenticity because it is so overused. It no longer means anything. What does it even mean anymore? Um, yes, I think one green flag that is very rare. It's usually when I work brand direct, but when they tell me and other creators who else they're activating. I think that's a huge green flag. I love knowing what other creators are in the campaign.

39:07Sometimes it incentivizes me to take a lower rate or do it because I want to be associated with this broader campaign of creators. So I love when there's visibility into the broader campaign and other influencers they're activating. I think that's a huge green flag as well. How often does that happen? Very rarely. It's actually one of the our core kind of beliefs with expand collab is we want to break down that those barriers that people put up between creators and between creators and brands. I'm sure there's a multitude of reasons why they keep that close to chest. But every time it's happened, I've been thrilled to know who else is is a part of it.

39:40Jasmine Enberg: So tell us more about collab kind of what's the vision. And also, I'm curious, do you when even when you were working with brands directly, like were you ever hearing feedback from them after the campaign about like what they like, didn't like, anything on performance? Because we often hear that creators just don't hear anything and then it's like on to the next. No, it's a great question. We always ask for feedback after campaigns wrapped. We've been doing this for three years with all of our brand partners. And we also build postmortems with every partnership we do. We pull together all of the comments, the DMs, the things the brands might not see that, you know, this partnership has led to, when we pull it all together and kind of offer new ideas for future collaborations, all of those.

40:21So we've been doing postmortems for three years. And we asked from the brand, how did this perform? Like, and I've had videos, I'm sure you hear this from a lot of creators where I don't think it's performing well. I'm like, oh my gosh, should we do a make good post? And they're like, that was our highest performing asset of the whole campaign. I'm like, who knew? So it's just, there's, it's such a bigger puzzle. Obviously you both know this, that I think that feedback is super important. So on to expand collab. We are a B2B influencer marketing agency. I do hate the term agency. I don't like using it.

40:53And I think it's because we've worked with so many agencies that aren't fantastic. And we're like, do we need another agency? But that's what we're sticking with now. And our core model is collaboration. I think I mentioned this when I'm seeing the visibility into who else is in a campaign, both collaboration between creators and with creators and brands, we believe that that leads to better content. There are so many times when I do a sponsored partnership and I don't even meet the brand. And it's so confusing to me. It's like, you're paying thousands of dollars to have a video made. Why don't you get to hop on a call with me?

41:26Why can't we chat about what your goals with this campaign? And so we just try to break down those barriers and really, really build that collaboration.

41:33Jasmine Enberg: How big is the team and how are you, what are you hoping to kind of do differently, right? I think at the same time, Obviously, B2B is one part of that. But Alex Cooper has an agency now. Darmann, a lot of creators are getting into this space. So for me, with this collaboration emphasis that I mentioned on the last 28 days on my corporate Natalie Instagram channel, the median collab post drove 50 % more engagement than our median just organic post. So there is the data behind this, like collaboration is the future. And as a creator-led agency, there are increased incentives for the creators to want to be part of our campaigns with every collaboration we do.

42:09If it's in person, we designate time for creators to build and collaborate on organic content totally outside of the campaign. If it's remote, we create group texts with the creators and we're talking about the content that we're posting. This transparency, creators are really fired up about. And I think in parallel, we have a collective of creators who we've met with. We meet with creators every single week who are all excited about working with B2B brands. This is talent roster agnostic. We are not representing talent in any way. But these are creators who agree that collaboration is the future, who agree that the brief is kind of broken.

42:45And even if they're not included in the ultimate campaign mix, they're excited about consulting and working directly with brands in some small way. And who are the creators who are part of this collective? We have about 50 creators, 50 B2B creators. A lot of them you'll see on my channels in organic sponsorships. I just flew to New York and did, did you see the, the, my videos that he played like a robot. He was in the gray Teletubby suit. It was like POV or company hires an AI agent. There are five like B2B comedy creators in New York that we, we planned a whole shoot day around fully organic.

43:17So there are, there are creators, you know, the creators you're seeing on LinkedIn, on Instagram and, and that, you know, that group of creators grows every day. And what does payment look like? So we are a brand agency, so we don't take any cut from the creators. We often work with the creators, managers to get their rates. We never want to, you know, we always want to honor creator rates. We get paid off of the brand side. So we take a small percentage of the overall campaign as our fee, and then we execute from start to finish. I'm not expecting you to give me the exact percentage, unless you want to, of course.

43:47But how does that compare to, you know, agency fees that we see? I mean, one of the things that we've been looking at is just how varied it is across the board. And I think one of the big challenges within influencer marketing is because there isn't any standardization in these fees or in payment rates. Like how did you think about pricing and when, what kind of fee that you're going to take as you were putting kind of this business model together? Definitely. I mean, I'll be completely honest in the first couple of campaigns we did, we took 0 % because we were just excited to work with the brand.

44:16The percentage ranges, right. And we're happy to eat into our margins to throw a little bit of paid behind the assets to make the content perform better. I won't share our exact percentage target goal, but we, you know, it really depends on the campaign.

44:31Jasmine Enberg: So B2B marketing for creators is still early, but it's growing. And I think there's a lot of excitement around it. Like at South by, there was like a B2B marketing panel and it was like line around the block, right? Like people are really excited and fired up about it. What do you see as kind of the biggest opportunities? And then we'll get into some of the challenges too. I think being in San Francisco, we're really uniquely positioned with this AI boom. A lot of companies are raising millions of dollars every single week. And a lot of them are pouring it into like, let's get a billboard and let's do a really awkward founder launch video on LinkedIn.

45:04And I think that's all become kind of table stakes. And 70 % of our outreach strategy goes to directly to funds, Andreessen, Google Ventures, Redpoint, any companies that just recently raised that you want, you know, you want us to get involved in, and also directly to these startups. We think this is a huge opportunity. There's, I mean, just being here in the moment of it all, we try to focus on those early stage companies and get involved early. One example of this, I did a campaign with Juicebox AI for their Series A funding round. They raised$30 million. They brought myself, Corporate Bro, and Austin Nasso into their office.

45:41And we filmed this whole kind of high production guess who game. They're a talent recruiting tool. And they're like, you know, Recruiting shouldn't be a game of guess who. And it was just a full day shoot, really fun, really exciting. And seeing them invest in that, we actually got a lot of outreach from other AI companies. So a lot of opportunity with the AI boom. And I think in parallel, and I'd be curious, both of your thoughts on this, we're seeing a huge appetite for IRL experiences on the B2B side. Everyone's having a conference or a showcase. We're seeing so much AI slop that I think people are just craving being in person.

46:13And we love kind of activating creators in person. That's our bread and butter. And so we're trying to jump on that momentum as well. So those two, I think, are pretty core to our focus and our outreach strategy with why this, why now and why this is a huge opportunity.

46:28Jasmine Enberg: Yeah, I mean, we just hosted our first conference in LA in May. It was great. It was really great. But I think like that excitement was palpable. Like people are so ready to be back in person. To be in person. Yeah, they want to. There's so much demand for it. So AI makes perfect sense, right? Some are raising billion dollars seed rounds. It's crazy. But in the SaaS side and other parts of B2B, the life cycle is just so much higher and longer than B2C. And the goals, I imagine, are different. Maybe the AI category is a little bit different. But what are some of the challenges, I guess, especially as you've worked with different B2B brands over the years?

47:08Jasmine Enberg: Is their CTA as clear as it is for consumer brands? What are you seeing on that side? It's interesting. Um, the life cycle is so long. The, the LinkedIn's B2B Institute found that I think like 5 % of B2B buyers are in market at any given moment. So you need to hit them across channels, across platforms. Our solution to that is this creator collaboration. If you don't follow me, but you follow corporate bro, you'll be able to see the same video on his channel. Um, so that's kind of our, our emphasis on this collaboration. I think the, um, B2B overall there, they definitely understand LinkedIn, but they aren't as familiar with other platform strategies.

47:44My bread and butter personally is Instagram. And I think there's the marrying of Instagram and LinkedIn is very powerful instead of just a pure LinkedIn collaboration. I think in general with B2B, they're a bit behind, right? And so the briefs are very stale. I'll be on calls on the creator side where they're walking through and reading slides from a 50-slide brief for an hour. Our solution to that is bringing creators on these calls before the brief is even placed in front of you. we were working with a large identity and access management company. And instead of doing a traditional briefing call, we're doing a multi-part series on their channels.

48:22And we spent the entire time as like a writing session with two other creators. And we just co-wrote this three-episode series that we're going to film in person here in San Francisco in a couple weeks. And that time was so much more valuable than here's what our company's about and let's read through the 25 five CTAs. So that's, that's not a B2B specific answer, but that's something that we're bringing on the B2B side that we think is powerful and bringing the brand on that call. They were happy to be on that call to observe the process, to apply some of this creator edge to what they're doing.

48:53So there's a ton of opportunity in B2B and we're trying to bring that across, across channel. The other thing, you know, I think a lot about too is B2B companies for some reason seem to forget that B2B buyers are people too. Like to your point about marrying LinkedIn and Instagram, Like it's the same person a lot of times, especially as a B2B buyer has gotten younger, who's like scrolling TikTok in, you know, in the middle of the night watching funny videos. When you think they're doing it, we work bathroom stall. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And I think that's now starting to change. I mean, you have played such a big role in that really kind of as the crossover between like B2C and B2B kind of, you know, talking to both audiences.

49:29But in your experience, like how has working with B2B marketers changed and what are they still kind of doing wrong at this point? Yeah, I mean, I firmly believe that the brief is broken. I think I would even go as far as to say we don't need a brief. We can just kind of get on a call together and you can explain your product to me. You're often very complex, very technical product. As I say to Claude every day, explain it to me like I'm five. That's me as a comedy creator. We work with a ton of technical creators who are far more capable of explaining those really intricate products. I think creators are also hard to reach.

50:05And B2B companies are more willing to kind of just throw it at an agency and not be involved in the process. But the real magic happens when they are involved and they are on those calls. And I don't know if you guys agree as consumers, but I think the one-off B2B influencer activations are starting to feel a little bit stale, especially on LinkedIn. We're seeing large blocks of text. It's reading an awful lot like it was written by AI. There's a static image of like like a stat or an infographic. And I think bringing creators to do a bit more riskier, exciting campaigns with B2B companies is where you start to differentiate.

50:40I don't know if you saw the ramp activation around the Super Bowl with Kevin from The Office, but that was a huge play for ramp. They had ramp air, a private jet. They brought him into San Francisco. They did a lookalike contest. It was very fun. They made a ton of social cutdowns for it. That was a huge win for ramp. And we want to do similar kind of splashy moments. John Summit at LinkedIn, where he released his new album and like things like that. Even before AI, I mean, there were so many hacks on LinkedIn and on other platforms too, like pretending to be experts or, you know, just kind of putting together listicles that felt like they were from BuzzFeed in 2015 that didn't really say anything.

51:19And so to me, that speaks to kind of another challenge in B2B that B2C doesn't really have, which is that you really have to build this authority and credibility. I mean, do you find that like, how do you kind of navigate that in your work? Yeah, I think there's building a creator mix is where this is really important. You can have, you know, corporate Natalie, I'll speak to myself, is not the technical expert on the newest AI product, but me alongside a developer creator doing a Q &A and there's kind of some humor laced in and then they're speaking to the product. It builds that mix and it touches on those things that the brand really wants to hit with that credibility, while also bringing that broader brand awareness to someone who just doesn't even know the name of the company.

52:00So I think it's a mix. It's a balance. And I think sometimes if you go too technical, it's the wrong strategy. Why get a super technical influencer when you can have your own employees speaking to that on LinkedIn? So it just depends. And I think it really depends on the company, the offering, the risk appetite.

52:17Jasmine Enberg: Do you think LinkedIn is still the primary place where B2B marketers should be or not necessarily? LinkedIn is great. I'm super bullish on LinkedIn. I have a great relationship with the LinkedIn team. But I think as I mentioned before, it's really that mix. It's that syndication to Instagram. I don't think TikTok is the right strategy for B2B marketers. Why not? So it depends on the product. I think it is, for me, it works far better when I do, you know, B2C content, when I'm promoting a makeup line or speaking directly to the camera on a physical product that I'm holding. There's shorter attention spans.

52:54People on my LinkedIn watch for around 20 seconds. People on TikTok watch for about four. I think there's less watch time, less appetite for maybe these like technical offerings that we're talking about. Even me, when I'm scrolling TikTok, my brain is completely turned off, right? Like, I don't know. It's just a different mindset than when I'm scrolling LinkedIn and I'm curious to learn and I'm in a bit of a different mindset.

53:15Jasmine Enberg: We've been thinking about this a lot because we have a very B2B audience. scalable speaks to business professionals, right? But we've thought a lot about like, okay, well, social has to be part of our strategy. And honestly, what you're saying resonates because like our TikTok is like the slowest and worst engagement. But Instagram and LinkedIn are and YouTube like, with shorts hit or miss. Things that hit on YouTube shorts are very different than things that hit on Instagram, for example. And then we've had a couple of TikToks that have done, you know, well for us, relatively speaking. And they've always just been so different than what performs on Instagram and YouTube.

53:49And I'm like, I don't really, it's hard to know what's going to hit where. Same. I mean, I can speak to that as a creator myself. Like you never know. We're trying to use kind of AI and tooling and dig into the data of all of the posts that I've ever made to try to be able to answer that question of why does something go viral? You know, what's the recipe for virality? And we're still working on it, but I'll report back. Well, in a few months, you can bring me back on Scalable and we can talk about it. So speaking of not knowing, Creators' careers can also just be really unpredictable. So when you're thinking about your own career, like what are your longer-term goals?

54:24Like what's the vision? Do you always want to be on camera creating content? Do you ever want to go back to the corporate world? Like what are you thinking? Great question. I think when a lot of creators want to start businesses, you guys even talked about like, why are all these creators launching agencies? Is that the right answer? I think for me, we spent a lot of time kind of trying to boil down like, what is the problem? We knew the brief was broken. We knew agencies we worked with were creating this separation. We even went back and forth on, should we launch a course? We knew we wanted to work with creators in some way.

54:57I think everyone has that. Should I launch a course moment? I don't know if you do. We haven't had that yet. And I'm happy about that. The answer for us was no. But I think with launching Expand CoLab, it hasn't felt like work because it's so fun to work with these brands. And there's really a natural flywheel between corporate Natalie partnerships, even ones that don't work out that can then be fed into Expand CoLab. And it just makes a ton of sense for us right now. Even if I'm not in the campaign, I'm working with creators, I'm co-writing with them, I'm building, you know, helping them write their content.

55:30I mentioned we're all in group texts, we're sharing each other's content and that's really fun and fulfilling to me. And I think that's how I was able to launch an agency and plan a wedding in the same year, which is deranged and I don't know why I did it. I've been following your Bachelorette content. And it's all so good. I swear I have worked, as I mentioned, as a creator for six years and the Bachelorette content. I mean, I might as well throw the other stuff away. Everyone loved it. They're like, I just have to I just have to start traveling and posting my girlfriends on trips. Like, I don't know.

56:01It was people loved it, but it was really fun.

56:05Jasmine Enberg: It felt very obviously fun and natural, but like, obviously, there was planning involved, right? Like you had the skits, everything. So tell us a little bit about that. And I also love that two of your friends from growing up are also creators now, which is so fun. Yes. We say there was something in the water at our high school. It's crazy. The three of us started our creator journeys completely independently. But yes, a lot goes into planning for that stuff. The last thing I wanted on my bachelorette was to be hunched over my phone editing and directing and managing a whole thing of like the whole content cycle.

56:35I got some comments of people who were like, just enjoy your bachelorette. Like, Jesus, like, you know, unplug. I was completely unplugged. We filmed for about 15 minutes total in the whole thing, got it all done and sent it to my content specialist who edited content and posted it live. So we were able to be so present. And that takes preparation. I mean, heading into my wedding, I expect to see similar comments, but there's a whole team of people behind this. I plan to not have my phone on my wedding day. I have had multiple meetings to plan. What content are we posting? What has to go live today?

57:10What can we wait and post the week after? And there's a whole strategy behind that. And it's far greater than me. It's a lot of people who do that. So it's definitely top of mind as I head into my wedding, for sure. It's also so interesting you say that that's what really resonated with people. Because one of the things we found, and obviously this is at a very, very different scale for us, but when we look at our social content too, and the stuff that people are really resonating with tends to be really personal about me and Kaya versus, you know, the stuff that we write in the newsletter, which works really well for the newsletter itself.

57:43And it's just such an interesting experience and finding that balance between, you know, how much to share with an audience and how much to kind of keep to yourself has been something that we're like kind of figuring out how to work through. So how do you think about that? I've teetered on this. When I started, I was working a full-time job and I was so scared that they would find out. So I kept everything private. You could never find my last name online. I didn't want to get fired. And as I've evolved, I obviously share more tidbits of my life. Hence why my bachelorette went so viral. People are so excited to see me outside of my work from home desk.

58:16They're excited to see me in this new light. And I think it's a balance. I think my fiance is very offline. That's intentional. I try to keep our special moments special to us. I think it's exhausting when creators have to wake up and share their relationship status and everything happening in their marriage and their with their kids and all that stuff. I don't know if I'll ever get to that point. But sharing a little bit here and there, especially with the audience in the community who got me to where I am is is totally fine.

58:43Jasmine Enberg: When you think about when you started on TikTok, like by no means was it easy, right? But like it was easier to go viral. It was easier to kind of stand out. But now things are so incredibly crowded. And I think obviously the rise of AI and like the fact that Instagram is so algorithm driven now, right? Like it wasn't like that when TikTok was first starting. And things are so much more personalized, right? Like what you see on your feed versus Jasmine's feed versus mine. It's like so totally different. Like I get now Polish language speaking creators because I'm Polish, right? And I get like funny niche, which is amazing.

59:14Jasmine Enberg: It's great. So there's obviously positives to this, right? Like you find creators that you never would have found, but it also makes it harder to kind of stand out and keep reaching like your community. So how do you do that? Right? Like you've had to navigate the different changes, but you know, what's sort of your advice? I mean, so many people are struggling with this established creators, emerging creators. Yes. It's a great question. I think there, when you first started, everyone was saying you have to have a niche and you have to do one thing and you have to do it really deep and really well.

59:42And I think now what, what I test every single day is what new thing can I talk about? What new character can I play? I can be the roommate. I can be the fiance who I can be the coworker who I can be the worker. bestie. I can be the scary boss. Um, and kind of, especially as a skit content creator, I'm able to really test these things every single day. And it always shocks me how something that I filmed in two seconds, like a type B person on the work trip and in the airport that Danny and I were like, can you just, can you film me for a second? I think this is kind of funny. Got, you know, 8 million views on Tik TOK and it's just, it always surprises me.

1:00:21So my advice to creators would be keep testing. If you feel like you're in a niche, you know, you don't have to be. You can, you can do a hundred things and you can keep testing and it doesn't, all your videos don't have to be viral. I firmly believe this. A lot of other creators would say every video has to be viral or I'm embarrassed or it was a failure. I disagree. I posted every day for three and a half years and some of my videos don't do well. And that's totally fine. That's a learning lesson. And we're able to take that and say, okay, we're retiring this character. She was fun. glad we tried that onto the next.

1:00:52And so those failures are just as important as the successes. And I think that makes a lot of sense too, because we're in this era now where established creators too are recognizing that they need to expand kind of beyond their original content and beyond themselves, because there's only so far that you can take like a very specific niche, right? So I think it makes a lot of sense. But anyway, let's move on to rapid fire.

1:01:14Jasmine Enberg: Natalie, what is a piece of corporate jargon that needs to be immediately retired? Open the kimono. I've never heard anyone say that. I've never heard that. What? People don't use it anymore as they shouldn't. It's awful. When did they use it? Like, let's open the kimono on that. Let's dive in. It's like, no, we're not going to do that. What is the biggest mistake brands make when working with creators? saying, we love, we love you. Just be you. Just do your thing. And then I'm somehow talking direct to camera, disclosing the partnership in 400 words. And the video is horrible and it's not funny.

1:01:53And I'm like, did you want a funny video? I'm a comedian. Like, did you want it to be funny or did you want it to be horrible? Because I think you might want it to be horrible.

1:01:59Jasmine Enberg: Work from home or work in office? Work in office, but not five days a week. Who has been your favorite character to play so far? I love putting on my man wig and being a dad. A dad character or the tech sales bro, especially when I'm filming at our WeWork and other people see me in the wig and they're just like, please, I'm trying to work here. Putting on the man wig. You're like, same. Do they recognize you? Do they know? When I get recognized in the man wig, it's we we did a partnership with a like a tourism company where we took a like a tour through San Francisco on a double decker bus. And of course, the script I wrote was I was playing a dad, like a dad on vacation.

1:02:44And so we took a three hour tour with me in the wig and people in the group started to recognize me. And I was like, oh, we've made a grave mistake.

1:02:54Jasmine Enberg: I'm crying. Who's the most insufferable person in the office? I just made a video on this. It's the Boomer boss. It was like, did you resend that? Wait, where is that? Is it a PDF? Where do I, can you print it out for me? Just like a million questions about one thing. It's like, I've aged 10 years. Can we please leave it? It's in your email. It's at the top of your inbox. Okay, finally, dream partnership. There are partners that I have currently that are a dream that I can't believe I'm living. I think I'll shout out one brand partner, United, that I've worked with for three years. One of my favorite parts of the partnership was they gave two round trip first class tickets to my parents to go to Italy.

1:03:32And that was like life-changing for them. And it was so fulfilling as a daughter to be able to send my parents on a trip. And United was the reason it happened. Well, thank you so much, Natalie. Thank you. This was so fun. This was so fun. Thanks so much for joining us and we'll see you here next week.

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