The Middle East's creator moment, Hannah Stocking's microdrama and messy influencer measurement

0:00Jasmine Enberg: Hi, everyone. This is Scalable, a weekly show about the business of the creator economy. I'm Kaya Yurieff. And I'm Jasmine Enberg. Every Thursday, we take you beyond the headlines to tell you what's happening, what it means and why it matters. We think that after the podcasting gold rush in 2025, the industry is going to start to face somewhat of a reckoning this year. The whole video explosion of podcasts, like it's just really blurring the lines, right? Like what's the difference between someone's YouTube series and a podcast? Like not much anymore.

0:35Hi, Jasmine. Hey, Kaya. Happy birthday. Thank you. As you know, I have been being served so much astrology content on Instagram, which I have been sending to you nonstop. It is. It's Capricorn season. But I thought that it would be fun for your birthday to do a little compatibility test between the two of us, both as friends and as business partners. So obviously you are a Capricorn. I'm born on September 29th. That makes me a Libra. According to Cosmopolitan, which is, you know, the source of truth for these kinds of things, we are a lot more different than we are alike. But one thing that we have in common is that we're both cardinal signs, which means we're born at the beginning of a season.

1:20You're winter. I'm fall, which apparently means that we're both natural leaders and we're also dedicated to getting things done. However, on the flip side, and I take a lot of issue with this, it means that we can both be a little bit self-centered and insane. Oh my God. Okay. All right. Well, first of all, I agree with the first part. On the second point, I'll say, I think as a creator and as someone like us who have been public facing in our previous roles, like you got to have a level of confidence for sure to get on stages, to be on TV. But I also think when you're in the professional space, especially as women, like think about when you go on TV, there's a hair and makeup room, even the men get hair and makeup.

2:00Like there's a level of professionalism that I think you have to bring to this world. Yeah. And I think also we both love fashion and are very deliberate with our outfit choices, which I don't think makes us vain. I actually think they can be excellent conversation starters. And at South by last year, we sort of coordinated outfits, but not. And last minute, it was last minute. But I remember it was like a few days before I was flying and I was not really liking my outfit. And I walked by Abercrombie in Flatiron and there was this like cow print denim two piece. And I was like, perfect. Tried it on, bought it.

2:35And I was at a party and I was wearing it at South by. And this this person came up to me and was like, oh, my God, your outfit's amazing. And I started talking to him and it turns out he's like the CMO of a major brand. So when you have a killer and he was like, you have a killer outfit, I had to say something. So it is actually a great way to network and meet people and it makes you memorable. A hundred percent. And I am such a believer in when you look good, you feel good and vice versa. But then, you know, our matching outfits, I had a full denim suit that was from one of my favorite brands.

3:06Yeah. That was one of my favorite brands from Finland, Marimekko. And it has this poppy pattern that is very recognizable. And it was actually really fun to see so many people coming up to me and not only recognizing me from being on stage earlier during the day, but also seeing, recognizing the pattern as Marimekko. And it was just, you know, it was a lot of fun. I also sourced my cowboy boots through Facebook Marketplace in Finland, which is another story for another time. But yeah, I think it's, you know, it's part of your brand. It's how you present yourself to the world. And I think it's a really important part of what we do.

3:39So I don't think it's vain at all. But as friends, and this is where it got really interesting. Basically, our relationship can go one of two ways. Either there are way too many clashes because of our differences. And for a little context, Capricorns supposedly can be very serious and Libras supposedly can be very indecisive. Or then it is this unexpectedly rewarding friendship where each is pushed to grow as you're working through a lot of these differences. I think after over five years of friendship and now launching a business together, we can see which way this went between the two of us but clearly you know it can take two very different paths okay well I think it's the latter of at least so far no um but okay I think no everything's okay because I'm not as serious as Capricorn they're supposed to be and you are not indecisive at all I would not put that in your personality at all also Capricorn I mean I can be indecisive on things like what I'm gonna have for dinner but like on the big things in life.

4:46Like I have a very clear idea of what I like, what I don't like and what I want. And I think with like, again, like you said, like the big life moments, like, okay, sometimes we're a little indecisive on like the outfits because we're like, okay, what are we doing? What are we wearing? But I think in the in the big moments again, right, like when we were deciding to go

5:01Jasmine Enberg: independent, of course, this was something that was like brewing and we were thinking about independently for a long time. But I think once we really were like, okay, are we going for this? We didn't agonize over the decision. Like we obviously thought it through, but we're like, all right, we're doing this. And I think even just the start of scalable, I remember I was at your house in LA, and we sat down and we were like, okay, we're gonna do newsletter twice a week. We had a discussion about whether we wanted people to like start their week with us or end their week with us with the podcast, we decided the latter to go Thursday.

5:32And that was it. We didn't like go back and forth and agonize. I'm like, wait, what day is better? We're like, no, Tuesday, Thursday, Thursday podcast, done. Like we, I think make very gut decisions that of course, are driven by not just like, it's not like we're just like willy nilly making decisions, but we both are very decisive. Yeah. And I mean, I think, you know, both of us have had long careers in the space. We know what we're good at. We know what our strengths are. We also wanted to challenge ourselves. I mean, podcasting is a new medium for the both of us, but like we're both writers.

5:58We knew we wanted to write. And then it was just a matter of how do we package this together? And it just made sense. And, you know, I totally agree with you. I am so of the mindset like you just got to go for it, which brings us to the business compatibility front, which I liked this one the best because I will say Cosmo did not have this, unfortunately. So I went to Google's Gemini for this and direct quote, it said, we have a power couple dynamic. Oh, my God. I love it. So basically where we're different, that's actually a good thing, right? We balance each other's out, each other out. So your sort of seriousness and disciplined focus and strategy goes very well, apparently with Libra's social charm and negotiation skills.

6:41Again, don't know if any of this is true, but I like where this is going. We also both value commitment and we're not afraid to take on new ventures. So apparently Capricorns are a little bit more risk averse than Libra's. I think the only catch here is that there has to be a mutual respect and understanding of our differences and a willingness to work through them, which again, we clearly have. I mean, I've been spending, you know, the new year reflecting on the creator economy, but also reflecting on, you know, us as business partners, as friends and as founders. And I think, you know, our friendship as the foundation for our business is what makes this so strong and work so well.

7:20Like you and I, we can disagree and then we can move on to the next thing as if nothing ever happened. We also know each other's work ethic, right? I trust you fully, which is so important because we have a nine hour time difference. No, it's so true. I agree with all this. I literally talked to you more than anyone else in my life, including family. I have no idea how anyone does anything alone. I don't know how people are solo founders. I don't know how people write a newsletter by themselves, start a company. I don't know. So I think what it's been amazing to have you as a sounding board collaborator to co-write with you.

7:55I think also you bring such a different perspective sometimes I'm like I cannot think of an example and you're like oh here's one it's like oh perfect no totally and I think the other thing too like Capricorns you can't believe everything about astrology okay like Capricorns are like very rigid and I think what's nice is also we can be flexible like yes we want to deliver this newsletter and we have you know these things that we've promised the audience but we could like Christmas day was normally when we publish our podcast and we're like all right we're gonna publish it one day later and that's okay and we can be flexible or when things aren't working or when we have to throw out the newsletter because there's a major news story like we can pivot and adapt which I think is great I also think our dynamic is so funny because we'll be like talking about our weekends like this morning we were texting about something and you're like okay but like back to this and it's like we just like snap right back into business so and sometimes there isn't even a transition it's just like a run on thought it's like okay enough of that and I also think we're so efficient and one it's like just running a business that's this lean as part of that.

8:57But like you said, we work across these crazy time zones that when we have this like five hour overlap of like reasonable hours for both of us, we are so efficient. Like over the holiday break, we were just on the phone for three hours straight. And I feel like we got like nine hours worth of work done. So it's nice. And then you pick up when I like log off and vice versa. So that trust is critical for sure. Yeah, I totally agree with all that. And honestly, I could not imagine doing this alone, and I could not imagine doing it with anybody except for you. So I'm very, very excited to get to celebrate your birthday in person in Dubai later this week.

9:35We are recording this just ahead of both of us hopping on flights. Mine is a little bit longer than Kaya's, although they're both long haul. We'll talk a little bit more about the 1 Billion Followers Summit later on the episode, But we also wanted to share what else we have going on this month because it is going to be very, very busy. I'm already exhausted thinking about the flight schedule and the logistics, but I'm also super excited. So first we're going to Dubai. Then we are heading to the Sundance Film Festival. Super excited for that. It's the last time it will be held in Park City, which is so sad.

10:07And we're going skiing. Yes. Or I'm going skiing at least. Maybe. We'll see. I mean, I just I just dusted off my snowboard for the first time in 15 years and did OK. So I'm feeling confident going into that trip. But we are besides skiing, maybe we are going to be recording another live podcast as part of the brand storytelling event, which is an annual gathering of brands and creators because the creator economy is now part of everything, including Sundance, CES, you name it. Then I'm coming back and going to Doha for Web Summit Qatar to moderate a fireside chat. And Jasmine during that time is going to the IAB conference in Palm Springs, where she will host a fireside chat with Zach Miller, the president of Bucket Squad.

10:48So if you're going to be at any of these events, we'd love to catch up. So please reach out to us. But you may have to do the scheduling on our behalf because these time zones are going to be very, very difficult to address. No, I'm just kidding. It is it is a challenge. But obviously, it is going to be a very busy month for us. also because we are very excited to start bringing on more guests regularly onto the show. So today we have Scott Brown, who is the founder and CEO of Second Rodeo. He is joining us to talk about his new microdrama musical series that just launched and features Hannah Stocking.

11:22And in case you missed it on last week's podcast, we actually predicted that we would see more creators launch microdrama series this year. So there's one of our predictions down and we are only eight days into the new year. Perfect. At least we got one thing right for 2026 so far. We're also going to answer some reader questions from our newsletter. So we have a lot to get to today. Okay, we want to start with the Middle East. I have never been to the region, but I will be there twice in Q1, which I think really shows how much of a hotspot it has emerged for the creator economy.

11:53Jasmine Enberg: The reason is the region is really trying to diversify beyond oil, but they also want to be seen as a hub of innovation and culture. So that includes incentivizing creators with interesting deals, funding, speaking opportunities, and more. So first up is Billion Follower Summit. This is the fourth year. And you actually went last year, Jasmine. It is my first time going this year. Yes. It's not my first time in Dubai, but it was my first time at Billion Follower Summit last year. Like anything else in Dubai, it is a show. It's a spectacle. Last year, they actually brought in a world champion slackliner named Jan Russe who walked a tightrope between the Jumeirah Emirates Towers.

12:32That is actually the hotel where I was staying. I missed it, though, because I was so jet lagged and asleep and didn't find out that it happened until I turned on CNN International later in the day. And I was like, wait a second, that's my hotel. But it was it was very, very cool to see. Scary, terrifying, but very cool. Oh, my God. How tall is that building? So I knew you were going to ask me this, and I had a note to myself to look this up before we started recording, but I forgot. I think it's somewhere around 50 to 60 floors, but that is nowhere near the tallest building in Dubai. It's the Burj Khalifa, which is actually the tallest building in the world.

13:13Jasmine Enberg: Okay, I'm excited. Billionfall or Summit is dubbing itself as the largest creator conference. I think they're expecting 30 ,000 attendees this year. and they had a huge win because they have a partnership with Mr. Beast this year and he also will be doing a keynote speech. So that is really, I think, putting the conference on the map in a big way this year. The partnership is this kindness campaign. So basically, they're going to select 10 creators who apply to help build a new village in Ghana, which will be super interesting. And they also recently announced new speakers, including Will Smith.

13:43Jasmine Enberg: They have other big name creators like David Dobrik, Twitch CEO Dan Clancy, Laura Trump will be there. So it's a very interesting roster of folks. Yeah. And they're also planning a speaker dinner for all of us speakers out in the desert on Friday night, which I am super excited about. But, you know, I think all of this sort of this show and the spectacle and Kaya, you started to talk about this a little bit already, is that this is an enormous marketing opportunity for Dubai and for the rest of the countries in the Middle East. Right. I think everybody knows that there's money there. There's infrastructure there.

14:14People are very digital first in the region. But I think some international companies have still been kind of hesitant to really do business there because of some of the legal, political and reputational risks, some of which are real and some of which are more perceived. I mean, Dubai, of course, is an incredibly international city. It is a very advanced city. I mean, the tallest building in the world is there. I know a ton of people from Finland, for example, who are expats there. But it's not just Dubai, of course. I mean, you mentioned Qatar already and Saudi Arabia, which is actually where Mr.

14:46Beast opened his temporary theme park in the end of last year. And I think just with bringing in all of these big American and other international creators, it really is a chance for these countries to reposition themselves on the global stage as also being more forward thinking, more innovative, more modern places to do business. and that's why they're spending so much money on this. And it's working, right? Like just look at all of the buzz that has been generated by the Mr. Beast theme park news, for example.

15:18Jasmine Enberg: Totally, and I think the money, first of all, is just hard to turn down, especially at a time when the US economy is still shaky, right? Like if you're an AI startup, you can still raise capital relatively easy, right? But compared to the 2020, 2021 VC boom, I mean, that's not existing. So you're seeing startup founders look there. And I think like it's super attractive, right? Like where else could Mr. Beast build such a theme park like in the U.S.? Where, you know, where could he do that? Who would give the funding for that? I mean, look at Cristiano Ronaldo's contract with the Saudi Pro League Club, right, which is reportedly worth more than 200 million dollars.

15:51Again, like that money is hard to turn down. And you may not think of him as a creator, but he is consistently the most followed person on Instagram, which is wild.

16:00Jasmine Enberg: Dubai also last year unveiled creators headquarters at Emirates Tower and a more than$40 million fund to support creators. Their goal is to bring 10 ,000 creators to the UAE. So that announcement last year was timed to the billion followers summit. So you're seeing a lot of kind of interesting things happen. CNN also, it's not just the creator economy, but traditional media, as we've talked about, is converging so much with creators. And CNN actually launched a new initiative called CNN Creators. And that includes a broadcast show, which is headquartered out of Doha, which I don't think is a coincidence.

16:34No. And I think that speaks to sort of, you know, the culture and the technologically advanced nature of the region. Right. I mean, there's a huge audience there for a lot of these international creators. And if you think about sort of creators and brands in the Middle East, like they were very early adopters of social media, of digital, of influencer marketing. And I think part of the reason for that is that the traditional media landscape there is much more regulated than it is in other parts of the world. Take social media, for example. I mean, do you remember the Arab Spring? Of course. It was ages ago, though.

17:08I mean, this was 2011. And if you don't remember, basically, it was this wave of protests that swept across the region that were essentially live tweeted. Right. I mean, and this was enormous back then because it just social media was not a place where people went to consume news and information the way that they do today. And all of a sudden you had journalists, you had ordinary people, you even had governments really turning to Twitter and watching these events unfold in real time. And that just had this massive ripple effect. Right. It really kind of kickstarted social media journalism. It really changed the way that newsrooms and even governments treat social media.

17:47I mean, I think back then it was pretty innocent and very positive. I remember Hillary Clinton said something along the lines of, you know, social media can help resolve diplomatic disputes. And today, of course, we know the dark sides with disinformation and election meddling and just the overall sort of negative mental health effects of having access to news and information 24-7 at your fingertips. But this really was a massive turning point. And, you know, just look at what happened last weekend in Venezuela. After the U.S. captured President Maduro, President Donald Trump posted a picture of him on his social network, Truth Social, that was then spread all over traditional media, including CNN, where I saw it.

18:29Jasmine Enberg: No, totally. And I think it's hard to think about social media not as a place for news. But like in 2015, I was an intern at Bloomberg and I was on a team called social media monitoring. And my job and that team's job at the time was to look at Twitter because often news was breaking there first. And we wanted to follow it and make sure that we were up to date on everything. So it's hard to imagine a world where that isn't true, but it's not that ancient history. And it really did start with the Middle East. And of course, that Maduro photo and the perp walk and all the other content that we've seen has spread all over social media has been meme-ified.

19:07There's a million thoughts on the whole situation, but it's hard to ignore news on social media now.

19:13Jasmine Enberg: Moving on to some other news, Spotify is kicking off the year with some announcements. This week, they announced some changes to their partner program. The high level is that it makes it easier for newer creators with less views than before to apply and start earning money from Spotify. The other interesting announcement, I thought, was that they're opening a new podcast and video production hub in LA and West Hollywood. That is going to be the home of the Ringer podcasts. And it's also going to be available for use for some creators in the Spotify partner program. So we're seeing YouTube studios, if you remember, which they shut down.

19:47and it all comes back. It's all circular.

19:51Jasmine Enberg: But Spotify also released some stats. I think stats are often tricky from the platforms to put into context because they often don't say which base or they don't give much kind of historical context over how these things have changed over time. But they did say that they estimate that over the past five years, Spotify has brought more than$10 billion to the podcast industry. So that's both through their direct monetization, the scale of engagement they deliver, all that kind of stuff. I mean, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, those stats, you know, not just from Spotify, just overall. I mean, they can be very, very hard to kind of decipher what it actually means.

20:22And that was the case here. But there was one stat that stood out to me, which is that compared to casual listeners, loyal fans on Spotify, how they define loyal fans, I'm not sure, stream nearly 20 times more of a show and are 150 % more likely to stick around after six months. This kind of, you know, just speaks to the broader trend within the creator economy of creators, brands, platforms, all trying to prioritize these loyal core fan bases over reaching literally everybody. And this to me says that Spotify is also playing into this. I think it's pretty well positioned for it. I mean, Spotify is not as algorithmically driven as say a TikTok or an Instagram or another social media platform.

21:02And just when it comes to podcasts in general, like those tend to be more self-selected, right? You're picking and choosing a few shows that you like and want to listen to and spending a lot of time there. But since we are on the topic of podcasts, I actually wanted to make one additional prediction for 2026 that we also included in Tuesday's newsletter. The predictions keep coming. The predictions keep coming. It'll be November and we'll still be making predictions. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. But this is something that we've been talking about quite a bit recently. And we think that after the podcasting gold rush in 2025, the industry is going to start to face somewhat of a reckoning this year.

21:42There's a couple of different reasons for this. For one, we now have top podcasters like Scott Galloway, who says he makes$35 million annually from his podcast. Joe Rogan almost certainly makes more money than that. But that just isn't the reality for most of the podcasters out there. There was some data from Magellan AI that I saw that said that the top 500 podcasts in the U.S. accounted for almost half of all podcast ad spending in the third quarter. That means that ad spending is heavily consolidated at the top. I will caveat this by saying it's very hard to find an exact number of active podcasts out there, but it is well more than 500.

22:24And that's already causing, you know, some podcasters that we've heard about to kind of rethink their podcasting efforts. Right. I mean, the Try Guys is one example. We also saw Shelby Church recently shut down her podcast and she talked about how she was questioning whether it was worth the time and the effort and the energy really to put it together and that her audience maybe wanted something different from her. Yeah.

22:47Jasmine Enberg: And I think, too, like the whole video explosion of podcasts, like it's just really blurring the lines, right? Like I think a lot of people in the industry have had this conversation, like what is a podcast anymore? It's just a show. Like what's the difference between someone's YouTube series and a podcast? Like not much anymore. And I think, too, with, you know, podcasts now coming on Netflix and Spotify and Spotify going to video and iHeartRadio now going into video as well. Like they're really just TV talk shows now. And one of the things, just to piggyback off of that a little bit, that isn't talked about as much in the media is also what are the implications of that for brands and advertisers, right?

23:24I mean, they very clearly bucket their spending into, say, social, video, podcasts. When the lines blur, that becomes incredibly complicated. And I think that's an argument for, you know, brands to kind of modernize and update their strategies. But in the short term, I think it's going to lead to a lot of issues as they're trying to reconfigure their infrastructure.

23:45Jasmine Enberg: Yes. No. And I think, too, like one thing that we have not really heard people talk about that we talk about a lot is how the explosion of video really exasperates this gender gap for women and minorities. Like they are already make up such a small share of podcast hosts and guests. But as we know, you know, women and people of color are more likely to face appearance based criticism and harassment online. So this kind of need to do video now, if you want to launch a podcast and this kind of pressure, because that's where the industry is going, it might discourage more people from giving it a shot.

24:17Jasmine Enberg: And I think that's really sad because alternative media is all about giving everyone a voice and different people a voice. So I think that's tricky. And I mean, even like I'm getting ready to do this podcast. I'm like, oh, like I had to wash my hair today. Like it's like some days you just don't want to be on camera. run. I know that's silly, but it's like we we talked about this a lot where it's like, OK, we felt like we needed to do video again back to like the gut decisions. Right. We're like, all right, this is where the industry is going. We want to do this. I think it's also a great way to connect with people.

24:47Jasmine Enberg: It lets you splice up your content, put clips on social, all this stuff. But like, you know, as women, we have to put ourselves out there and that can come with, you know, trolls and people saying mean stuff about what we're wearing or what we look like that day. And that's like something that we have to have a thick skin about. But I think it's just a tricky dynamic. And because of the pivot to video, I think it might have an even worse impact and those stats might get even worse over time. Yeah. And more broadly, too, I mean, I'm very curious to see sort of more statistics and robust estimates come out for how people are actually consuming video podcasts.

25:21Right. I mean, we know that there has been a growth in the video podcast. We've also seen, you know, growth in the number of people who are spending time watching them. But we know that audio isn't dead, right? And I know from a personal preference, a lot of times I still like to consume podcasts via audio. I don't listen to many full episodes, if I'm being perfectly honest. I do consume most of it through TikTok and Instagram, which speaks to your point about needing video, at least for sort of clipping and marketing those shows. But I think we're going to start to paint or start to get a clearer picture of sort of the interplay between audio and video and how all of this shakes out this year.

26:00Jasmine Enberg: Okay, moving on to our reader questions. When people sign up for our newsletter, we ask them to send a hello or a burning question about the creator economy. We do that for two reasons, both to say hi and to hear what you are interested in hearing from us and also to make sure that email providers don't put us in spam by accident. So we went through some of the questions we've gotten over the past few weeks and we wanted to answer some of them. We answered more in our newsletter this week as well. I'm going to kick the first one to you, Jasmine. So one reader asked us, what's the best way to truly measure effective creative engagement?

26:34So I know this is a little nitpicky and maybe a little bit snarky, but it really depends on what you mean by effective, right? That's a subjective term and it means different things to different people, right? But let's assume we're talking about how people are reacting to or responding to creator content on social media. In that case, I would say things like time spent, saves and shares are the best indicators of engagement. I'm also really interested in reposts, which Instagram just rolled out pretty recently. These are much better at reflecting, you know, true meaningful engagement than vanity metrics like likes or the number of comments, for example.

27:18They also better reflect the way that people are actually engaging on social media these days. I mean, people are not only posting less in feeds, they're also commenting less, they're liking less, right? And they're interacting far more in private spaces, especially in DMs. And if you kind of think about this, to take liking as an example, right? It's a passive activity. It's normally done as you're scrolling through your feed. It takes less than a second. It doesn't mean you actually watch that piece of content. it certainly doesn't mean that you actually liked that piece of content, right? But if you save something or if you share something, that is a much clearer indicator that you either plan to come back to that piece of content later or you found it interesting enough to send to somebody else.

28:05My big question and the one that is the hardest to answer is why, right? And I think there are some people out there who are very, you know, sort of bullish on the comments section of posts. I, you know, I think you can start to get a picture of how people are responding there. But I would say two things here. One, again, people are commenting less than they used to. And two, to quote Taylor Swift, people are cutthroat in the comments. I mean, it's true, right? You're more likely to get people to respond negatively than positively. So it's, you know, it's very, very hard to answer that question of why.

28:40And then if you want to go beyond that and really look at a piece of, you know, creator content's effectiveness on sales, for example, things get even more complicated. And I think a lot of the strategies that brands have today to understand sales impact are very piecemeal, right? They'll look at things like affiliate marketing or post-purchase surveys. And again, those are pretty good indicators, but it still doesn't paint this holistic picture of the effectiveness of creator content. And so one of the things that's on my wishlist and that we talked about also in the newsletter is, you know, more standardized universal frameworks to better understand, measure, attribute the effectiveness of creator content really at scale.

29:23Okay, next question we're going to talk about, and Kaya, this is for you. Do you think that vertical dramas will last on the apps that they currently exist on? Or do you think this is a trend that will end up transferring to the existing social platforms that people know and love? Okay, micro dramas are clearly a top of mind for people.

29:41Jasmine Enberg: They are very excited. We're excited to have Scott on later in the show to kind of dive deeper into that. But I think, again, as we wrote in our 2026 predictions, we do expect micro dramas to have a big moment this year. And that also means that the social apps are going to be paying attention. So we expect TikTok and other platforms to go big on micro dramas. TikTok has already been kind of thinking about it. Of course, there's a strap is Doyin in China. Microdramas are huge in Asia. So anything happening on Doyin and in Asia, like TikTok Shop, a few years later, will come over to TikTok in the US.

30:17Jasmine Enberg: I think in general, it's always hard for startups and upstarts to compete with the large tech and content platforms, right? They have massive audiences, deep pockets. That's where everyone already is. So to convince someone to download and regularly return to a separate app is challenging. That doesn't mean that these standalone apps will go away. I mean, we've also seen the social apps try to do influencer marketing, and that didn't kill all these other companies, right? So it's not, you know, it doesn't mean that they're going to go away, but it's definitely something that they have to think about and that they're going to have much more competition from.

30:48Jasmine Enberg: I think on the advantage side for the social apps is, again, they have deep pockets, they can make content available for free. Typically, these apps are charging for episodes. And they can also strike deals with creators of micro dramas to host directly on their app. So all of these things, I think, will be challenges. So I'm going with the latter on this one, but we'll see. We'll see what happens this year. Okay, you already sort of teased this one, but we did get asked. I had to think about this one, but someone asked. Same, this was hard. If you had a magic wand, what would you build? Okay, you gave a teaser for yours, so you go first, Jasmine.

31:23I would build a universal dictionary for the creator economy, starting with the term creator economy because people cannot even agree on what that means. And, you know, on a personal note, like not having standard definitions for things like creator and influencer were a really big pain point and still are a really big pain point for me as I'm trying to research and really size the creator economy. And I think, you know, if you can't even agree on terms that are as basic as creator, influencer and creator economy, how are you supposed to effectively build anything within this industry. So that is the number one thing that I would like to see built.

32:02Jasmine Enberg: What about you, Kaia? Okay. Piggybacking off of that, I have said this for years. I want a US census on the creator economy. Yes, we don't know the definitions, 100 % agree, but we also don't have the basic stats of the creator economy. And I think so many different people from Goldman Sachs to Lincoln Bio Startups have tried to size the market and they just are widely different figures. and I think it's a super it's a challenge right it's the reason it hasn't been done is it's a challenge like what's a creator what's a podcast like all these things are blurring but the fact that we don't have basic stats on like how many creators there are in the U.S.

32:36Jasmine Enberg: or in the world is mind-boggling the other thing is I I don't exactly know what I want this AI agent to do but like all the things that I need to do on a daily basis you just want one organized and then you'll decide. No. And I know there's like a million AI agents, but like when you use like, again, there's this gap between the startups and the customer and the creators where it's like, OK, I know there's a million companies that can edit clips for social media, but none of them is doing it 100 percent. Right. Like so many creators complain about it. We've tested stuff. So I want an AI agent that can like help me stay on top of my emails, do clips for social, like all these things that I need on a daily basis.

33:14And to that point, right, it's all so fragmented. You have one AI agent that does this one thing. Then you have another AI agent that does another thing. I'd like to see it all centralized into one. Although I will be honest, more than an AI agent, I would like a human personal assistant. I know. I know. Also that, but it's OK. A human cannot like these are all different skill sets, though, like cutting social cutting social versus like scheduling your life versus like strategy. That's like that's a unicorn. If you find one person, that's like a chief of staff. Maybe we need a chief of staff. All right.

33:48Well, that is a perfect note to end on. We're super excited to welcome Scott to the show to tell us about Second Rodeo and his new microdrama series Playback. Hi, Scott. Welcome to Scalable. Hey, it's great to be here. Thank you for having me. We're so excited to have you here for our viewers who may not know as much about you as we do. Could you give us a little bit of background on who you are and what you do? Yeah, so I'm the founder and CEO of Second Rodeo Productions. We are a creative studio servicing the intersection of legacy and digital media with a focus on digital scripted content as those two worlds rapidly merge.

34:25Quick bio on me. I have been working in digital as a producer and director my entire career. I graduated from USC with a degree in screenwriting just in time for the writer's strike. I discovered the World of Web series. and from there I really went all in on digital. Some highlights of my work include directing Larry King's comeback on Hulu. I was the executive producer, lead director, and writer of Dwayne The Rock Johnson's YouTube channel for a year at its launch. Grew it to 1 million subscribers in just 11 days. I also was a senior producer for Mr. Beast in 2023. Did one of their largest stunts, Train vs.

35:01Giant Pit. And now with Second Rodeo, we are producing scripted digital content with a focus on micro dramas, but with an eye towards what I'm calling the scripted digital boom, which I really believe is just the beginning of audiences finally excited and wanting to consume scripted content in a way that is not only creatively exciting, but also a sustainable business.

35:24Jasmine Enberg: We definitely want to talk to you more about lessons from your career later on, but first let's talk about Playback. Tell us a little bit about the show, what it's about, where you're launching, and who it's for. Playback is a micro drama, also known by the fans as a vertical. It's playing on the app MyDrama, who is our production partner on it as well. And Playback is the story of a young woman named Maddie Bryce, who unbeknownst to the world, is actually the brains and the voice behind a pop superstar that is known only to her to be an AI avatar. And because of this fame, she enters the world of the music industry and meets a young man named Luke Rivers.

36:03And it's really a story about them falling in love and navigating the world of music together, following their dreams, and ultimately coming together in a big finale that's about love and courage and overcoming the odds. It's meant for, I like to think it's meant for a lot of different audiences. It's first focused on the demographic that primarily consumes these stories, which are women in their middle and young life, but also we're focusing on young adult audiences as well. It's also a musical, so fans of music. and digital storytelling in general. Why a musical? I mean, I feel like there's so many different directions you could have gone with this series.

36:42Why did you choose that route? And on a related note, how did you cast the show and then choose some of the people, the creators who you're working with? The reason why I wanted to make a musical, I mean, it partially felt right. When I read all the comment sections, the fan community is highly engaged with us. They're asking for things that are different. A lot of micro dramas tend to be plot lines that are, you know, recycled. People really want fresh stuff. And our first series, The Diamond and Rose, was it was kind of a dance movie, a little bit like Step Up. So it felt like a natural progression to evolve what we were offering audiences while still giving them what we'd learned they really wanted.

37:26Holy Water, the company that owns and operates my drama, they really wanted to explore, based on my background, the ability to cast a creator in one of the roles. So we started a search looking for creators that were interested in being in microdramas who showed an ability to perform and act. And at the same time, we ran a very normal casting process where we did a large call. We had callbacks. We had chemistry reads. And besides our wonderful cast, we were also able secure, and this is brand new news, Hannah Stocking to play the villain in our series. You know, Hannah has a wonderfully talented person.

38:07She's great in this role, a pleasure to work with. And, you know, with 78 million followers, I think she brings a level of notoriety, an audience that might not know micro dramas as much, and people who are really excited to see her act. So it was a combination of reaching out to agencies and a traditional casting process.

38:31Jasmine Enberg: The storyline feels very, you know, meta for the moment that we're in with the AI clone. So how did the story kind of come together? How did the idea come together? One of the reasons people watch micro dramas is they're looking, a lot of people talk about how they're not looking for like a heavy lift when it comes to, you know, the different things that they're watching, whether it's thematic or character or the complexity of a plot, right? But at the same time, I don't think that that desire for a story that is easily metabolized is an opposition to the idea of saying something about the world.

39:03It's just about like anything, how you execute it. So we were like, what? You know, AI is always in our lives. How can we make our story seem timely, but in a way that would still feel timely, you know, roughly five months after the conception of the thing. and a musical about a young woman who was secretly the brains behind an AI phenomenon that the world wasn't sure of whether or not it was AI and making a commentary about, a little bit of a commentary about art and the tools that are used to express that art. It just felt right. You know, I mean, in my career where I've done, I've been fortunate to do many things that have been seen by a lot of people.

39:42And a big component is how it feels to my gut. And just besides the various reasons I've spoken about, it just felt right.

39:49Jasmine Enberg: So AI obviously is part of the plot, but behind the scenes, did you use AI at all in the production of the show or post-production? I think there's a big conversation now happening in Hollywood, how to use AI, how to not use AI. So how did you guys approach it? I just have this really firm belief that if utilized well, AI will simply be a better tool and technology to improve the technology of storytelling. We use it in our logistical workflows often. I'll use it sometimes for the writing when maybe we need to try to fix maybe a plot point or something like that. I'm not fundamentally against the idea of AI doing script writing for us.

40:29I just don't find it to be good enough right now. Like I don't read it. And that instinct that I spoke about doesn't like light up. um and then post-production we're not using we're using generative ai to a degree for like large set piece shots to up the production value but specifically when it comes to our core performers we're steering clear of generative ai there but you know a lot of the things that people don't talk about when it comes to ai is like there's obviously the generative tools but there's also like the noise reduction that's available in da vinci resolve now The AI version is incredibly powerful.

41:04The ability to isolate vocals and fix things that you otherwise couldn't. Incredible. The way that we can organize and log footage faster. Great. So we keep an open mind, but I have not yet found the generative qualities of AI really meet the bar. So listening to you talk about the storyline, and I'll preface this by saying, I mean this as the highest compliment, but it reminds me so much of Josie and the Pussycats. Did you ever see that movie? Yeah, I love it. Yeah, my sisters and I still quote the part about subliminal messaging. Like, I don't know how many years later it is right now. But that is obviously, you know, traditional media, right?

41:45I'm curious to how long it took you to produce this micro drama series. And how does that compare to say a traditional film or movie? Well, this is really important to me, right? So I think in my entire career doing digital, right? I have always sought to take the values, the aesthetic and creative values of traditional media, legacy media, storytelling. And I use the word transpose, I think, really purposefully here. I then transpose those values into the value set that digital has, right? I say this to everyone on this project. If all we did was make a really great Netflix film in a vertical aspect ratio, we would not succeed.

42:36The writing on these, and because editing is a form of writing, the editing process is deceptively difficult. right but the real core values of great storytelling character uh character development uh the the way that stories are told those things still have a place here um but it's important to realize that you're in a digital medium so we conceived of this and wrote this in august and we were on set at the end of october and because of some we're taking a little more time in post-production because of some exciting uh things we're doing that are ambitious on the visual effects side not too much just a little bit um this will be coming out uh in early uh early 26 um but you move fast you know the actual production of this felt like a uh it just felt like a low budget indie film we shot we shot the whole thing in seven days a 90-page script which included 18 musical numbers.

43:38But keep in mind, most of these musical numbers are around 45 seconds because of the length of the episodes. We're moving fast, but I think that's part of what people love about these. You know, they're not, this is jazz music. It's not an orchestra. And I think part of one of the things people love about jazz music is what you do with the wrong notes and the extemporaneous quality that comes from shooting something that fast. So I really look at it as a feature, not a hindrance. So I think one of the misconceptions, you know, among creators as well as, you know, brands and anybody who's creating content online is that shorter means easier, right?

44:14And kind of what you're saying is that isn't necessarily the case. I mean, you talked a little bit about some of the difficulties for writing for, you know, a micro drama. Can you dig into that a little bit deeper? Like, what is it that's so challenging about short form content? And, you know, how does that, again, compare to maybe longer form? So creatively executing these, I think it's, especially in the writing, it can be deceptively difficult to get this right. I think when it comes to my role, this idea of a showrunner is probably the closest comparison that I could draw. when I work with the writers, it's challenging because especially in the first 20 episodes, and this plays into Mr.

44:55Beast retention practices as well. In the first 20 episodes, you have to grab them by the lapels and you have to hold on. And you are literally competing with the galaxy of entertainment opportunity that's with them on their phone, right? But at the same time, you have to be planting the things that are necessary so that by the time they get to the end of your 90-minute story, they're experiencing the emotional joy and even a bit of catharsis potentially that'll lead to high shareability. And a lot of the writers that work with us pretty consistently, especially those that come from a more traditional background, look, everyone wants to do really good work, right?

45:38Of course. and we have been taught often that we don't want to be campy. We don't want to be pretentious. We don't want to be melodramatic. These are words that I think a lot of the times have a negative connotation to them. And when you're writing for a conflict density and a storytelling cadence that is as fast as especially the first 20 episodes of a micro drama, any decent writer's alarm bells will start ringing that you may go into those negative spaces. But what I really try to tell people is you absolutely can tell an incredible story with the demands needed of the pacing of a microdrama.

46:21I actually believe truly, and we're just getting this process started, but I actually think that microdramas are ultimately going to make film and TV better. We have a system that we use where there's an outline that we have in a mirror board. And every story uses it as a template. And it's broken down by episode, all 60 episodes. We operate on a 60 episode structure. And when I show that to the writers, they're often, you know, that seems like a lot of structure. But I promise them, this is purely a place for you to start playing from. And you can do great, exciting, creative work. Playback is the, you know, we're still editing it.

47:01But I can say with a lot of conviction that playback, I really believe it'll be the best thing by my standards that I've ever made. It was the most exciting, joyous thing to make. And I just can't wait to see the world see that joy up on the screen.

47:16Jasmine Enberg: What's the business model of Second Rodeo? How are you monetizing these shows? So right now we we work with the apps and there's a production company fee in addition to back end participation. You know, a lot of people will work at these at volume. Second Rodeo more specifically is focused on creating content that continues to evolve and iterate on what micro dramas and all other formats can be. Specifically in micro dramas, I'm also, uh, 2026 is really going to be about, uh, well, a major part of it will be about focusing on brands and brand integration into scripted storytelling. I think the important thing to remember about secondary business model is that I contextualize the micro drama piece, which is a major part of our current business.

47:59into, I wrote a piece in Tube Filter about what I called the first true, real, digital scripted boom. Because there's not just micro-dramas, right? There's also Darman. There's Alan Chickenshow. There's the Group Chat. There's Brooklyn Coffee Shop. There are so many. And then beyond those shows that get talked about in the media, there are dozens and dozens of, for example, YouTube channels that put out 20-ish minute, fully narrative videos. And only that, they're doing, they have millions of subscribers and every single one of their videos without fail is doing at least 100 ,000 views. That is very, very new.

48:46And so 2nd Radio's business model is about keeping our head on a swivel and capitalizing on all the various opportunities within this larger scripted digital boom. So you brought up Darman, and he is actually one of the creators who has teased that he might be having something cooking in the microdrama space, too. So I wanted to take a moment and just kind of zoom out a little bit and just get your broader pulse on the microdrama space, because obviously they are huge and they're very lucrative in China. But they've been kind of written off here in the U.S. And I think the same happened with live shopping, right?

49:24It really just hasn't taken off to the same degree. Do you think micro dramas are ever going to be as big here as they are in Asia? I do believe that they are going to be a major part of the future. But I think of it, you know, what I've learned is over the years is predicting the future of something that has really powerful early indications. It's tricky, right? When I think about two years ago, right, when I first learned about micro dramas and what really caused me to want to put my foot down on the gas as hard as I did, which was very hard, right? And we really pursued them aggressively. Not only is the consumer behavior to spend money, like I say this to people, if the US consumer last year spent, I mean, by some estimations, over a billion dollars watching what amounts to movies with no known actors in them and no known IP driving them, they just wanted to know what happened next to Jack and Jill.

50:21that is a huge opportunity. I also think that a big difference in this moment is the fandom, right? There are, every day almost, it seems now, I get messages from strangers that I've never met who are passionate about this space, right? It reminds me a lot of the early days of YouTube when a lot of people were dismissing YouTube and YouTubers and creators in general. And I was on set with those people. and I saw the piles of fan mail that they got. And my instincts at the time were like, this doesn't feel like something that, this feels like something that is meaningful. I just keep looking at the growth in America.

50:58I keep looking at how more and more new people are watching these. And I look at our own work. It just really feels like early YouTube. And so to really answer the question, I do think it'll get as big. I think it'll have a different shape to it because of different cultural factors. but really the idea that the phone is a new medium and not that the phone is a second screen right it's actually a new medium it is the main event for certain parts of our lives that's that's a really seismic shift and it's something that we're just starting to fundamentally understand you all just add this too i say this a lot to my team when when movies came out when film came out as a medium, right?

51:45It was intended as the exhibition of entertainment first, right? When television came out and began to enter into homes, it was intended as an entertainment vehicle first. The phone entered our lives not as an entertainment medium at first. I mean, in a way, I guess you could call it that, but it really was meant as a communication device. And because of technology, it has evolved into a medium for the commerce and art around storytelling, right? And because it's delayed, I think people sometimes, because we've held phones in our pockets for a long time, but if you really contextualize it in this idea that we are only really able to enjoy phones as a new storytelling medium and the implications of having storytelling with us wherever we go.

52:36that's where I get really, really excited.

52:38Jasmine Enberg: So one of our 2026 predictions is that micro dramas are going to explode in the US. We also think that that means that TikTok and social apps are going to be paying more attention. We've already seen TikTok make some moves in that direction. So do you think that's a threat to standalone apps like MyDrama where you're premiering or Real Short or the others if the big social platforms get in on the space? I mean, I think it's going to be a factor that they're gonna have to be concerned with, right? And it's gonna have to be something that factors into their plans. But, you know, I look at Dropout and Nebula for examples of platforms that do a really good job of actually utilizing social media, YouTube, everything to actually increase the audience's use and love of their brand, their app, things like that.

53:28I think that these platforms will be a threat to these apps if they don't really embrace them, right? It's not TV, it's HBO. That was a really powerful tagline for a long time. And because of the way that these social apps work, there's gonna be a lot of different types of content that simply, they probably will not exhibit, right? So it's not YouTube, it's the app, right? And if they smartly and strategically utilize social media as a tool to build audience, to bring in audience. I mean, you know, one of the things that gets talked about a lot is, and there's not absolute clarity on, but so much money is spent in the paid acquisition of users in micro dramas.

54:14I think a big opportunity that I think we're going to start seeing in 2026 is to lower that ultimate customer acquisition cost utilizing organic reach on social platforms. But I also know these social platforms also want to become a place where users can transact as well. So, you know, look, as a person making content, I tend to become very excited by places that my content can exist, by diversity and the ways that I can monetize that content. And the apps only need to be worried if they don't adapt, because these platforms are wonderful and very powerful. And if used correctly, they will only lead to the acceleration of, I think, your very prescient observation that microdramas will be exploding this year.

55:04Jasmine Enberg: So now you're all in on the microdramas. But before that, as you mentioned at the top, you've had such a fascinating career of, as you said, bridging the gap between traditional media and social media. You talked about your work with The Rock and Larry King. Looking back kind of on your career to this point, what's been the most important business lesson that you've learned so far? The most important business lesson that I've learned is that if you treat the audience with respect and give them what your instincts tell them will be something that they love and you give it to them authentically and in a really exciting way, they will respond to you with views and transactions that allow you to continue to do what you love.

55:45So along a similar vein, what has been your biggest win and your biggest loss so far? I really believe my biggest win was discovering microdramas and the success of our first series because it showed that quality, when executed well, is still an audience preference. And it must be strategic, right? You know, when we made the Diamond and Rose, I wanted to entertain, I wanted to make a hit, but I also wanted to show the larger entertainment industry that talent and brands could get involved in this space. And with Hannah Stocking being in our next series playback, I think we've begun to prove that thesis out.

56:23And that's how much I believe in micro dramas. The biggest win was discovering them and making our first hit. Biggest loss? Oh, the biggest loss. I ran a company called Liquid Light, and we raised some money after I did the Rocks YouTube channel to hopefully build more YouTube channels for notable names. and the pandemic really threw a wrench in the works of that. There's a lot of wonderful momentum we were building and the pandemic specifically at that time interrupted what I think is still proving out to be a really powerful opportunity for notable names and brands. But the inability to leverage that I think was the biggest loss due to the pandemic.

57:03Jasmine Enberg: Now that you're a founder in the creator economy, you've obviously worked at companies in the past, but now that you're a founder, What do you think it really takes to succeed in the creator economy from the founder perspective? I mean, you got to think like a creator, right? One of the toughest things about the creator economy is that we don't have hiatuses. We don't have summer breaks, really. And it has to be a willingness to adapt and grow and listen to the audience and meet them where they are. If you don't keep an open mind and accept that change is inevitable, which I think the best creators and having worked with some of the best creators, they absolutely do understand.

57:39that they have to continuously evolve. I think those are the most important things, just continue to evolve and grow. So Kaya and I have both been covering this space for a very long time, over a decade each, actually. And what we're doing now feels so meta because now we're covering the business of the creator economy, but we're also creators and founders ourselves. But we only launched Scalable about two months ago. So what advice could you give to us as first-time creators or founders in the creator economy? Be bold. Do things that trust your gut. I know that's such an obvious thing that people tell you, but really following your instincts and what got you here and listening to this voice inside.

58:23the more I do that, the more I find that the success and the milestones of that success happen. But also, and there's actually a theme in playback from the patron saint of playback, David Bowie, just always make sure that you're going a little bit farther outside of your comfort zone. You know, again, be strategic, be thoughtful, but go a little bit farther than what you're used to doing. Get to a point where your feet are just not quite touching the bottom. Go a little bit farther. That's where the really exciting work and the innovation lies.

59:01Jasmine Enberg: Thank you so much, Scott. And by the way, I have the same birthday as David Bowie. So how funny is that? Wow. Well, thank you, Scott. That was a great, a great end. And we so appreciate the time and you coming on. Thank you. It was really wonderful to come back and start the day, start the new year like this. I look forward to I subscribed and I look forward to continuing to watch the podcast. Awesome. Maybe we'll run into you in Dubai. We'll see.