The WBD bidding war, MrBeast on DealBook and special guest Jon Youshaei

0:00Jasmine Enberg: Hi, everyone. This is Scalable, a weekly show about the business of the creator economy. I'm Kaya Yurieff. And I'm Jasmine Enberg. Every Thursday, we take you beyond the headlines to tell you what's happening, what it means, and why it matters. The Golden Globes announced the first ever nominees for the best podcast category, including Alex Cooper, Mel Robbins, and Amy Poehler. Joe Rogan was snubbed from the list. OpenAI's Sora app is losing steam. That was bound to happen. Netflix's acquisition of Warner Brothers could be a win for the creator economy, but not in the way you may think.

0:36Jasmine Enberg: Hi, Jasmine. Hey, Kaya. So today's an exciting day because we are having our first ever guest on the show. Creator John Yushai is going to join us at the end of the episode to talk about his new company, which helps creators with taxes, payroll, and HR. and starting next year, we're going to be bringing on guests more regularly to share their experiences about building companies in the space and to get their takes for what's happening in the industry. Yeah, we're super excited to have John later on in the show. And if there's anybody else you are dying to hear from, whether that is a creator, a platform executive, a CMO, a founder, please let us know in the comments below, or you can email us at tips at scalablepod.com.

1:21There are just so many people building really interesting companies within the creator economy, and we want to make sure that we can feature as many as possible. And yes, you heard that correctly. We have solved our domain issues finally, and we are now scalablepod.com.

1:38Jasmine Enberg: If you didn't know about our domain issues, let me give you the lowdown. So we had delays ahead of our launch getting the scalablepod.com domain because it's a premium domain. I will not bore you with all the details. So we had to launch with scalablepod.co. But the problem is, is that we had already recorded our first podcast episode in studio. I had flown out to LA so that we could be in person. And at the end of the episode, I told viewers to go to scalablepod.com for more information. So there wasn't an opportunity to rerecord. So I was like, well, can't we just use AI? Like, isn't that what AI voice cloning is for?

2:16Jasmine Enberg: So our video producers in post-production were able to use an AI version of my voice to tweak that and have it be scalablepod.co. Literally no one noticed. No one pointed it out to me, including like family members of mine. I mean, I can tell because it's my voice. I think obviously if it was a full podcast episode with AI voices, you'd be able to tell. But yeah, that was our first real use of AI in this case. So very excited to have the domain back. And thank God for AI in that instance, because you had already flown back to Europe. There's no way you were coming back to LA. But the domain issue was also one of those things that I didn't even think could be a problem as we were building our company.

2:57So luckily, it's all fixed. And we also merged the scalablepod.co domain with scalablepod.com. So if you've been visiting our old website, or emailing our old email addresses, don't worry, they both still work, they will redirect. Speaking of mergers, I know you like that transition. Our first story today is the bidding war for Warner Brothers Discovery and what a Netflix Warner Brothers deal could mean for YouTube and the creator economy.

3:25Jasmine Enberg: Okay, so to get you up to speed on the latest, last week Netflix announced that it would acquire Warner Brothers. The$72 billion deal includes the company's film and TV studios, HBO and HBO Max. But now Paramount, which many expected to be the winner of the bidding war, is coming in with a hostile bid of$108 billion to acquire all of Warner Brothers Discovery. Besides the inevitable antitrust scrutiny, another wrench for Netflix is a new class action lawsuit filed this week from a subscriber to HBO Max who said that the proposed deal threatened to reduce competition in the U.S. subscription video on demand market.

4:05Jasmine Enberg: So all of this doesn't sound like a creator economy story, but it is. Yeah, it really feels like every story has a creator economy angle these days. And in this one, it really is the ripple effect that a Netflix Warner Brothers deal could have on YouTube, which is obviously one of the biggest platforms for creators. And as we wrote in Tuesday's newsletter, the deal would put pressure on YouTube, which we know has been dominating streaming charts. And it's also been trying to move further onto living room screens, really as it is trying to win over streaming ad dollars. That, of course, is Netflix's turf.

4:40And in return, Netflix has been courting YouTubers. It's also been courting podcasters. In October, it struck a deal with Spotify to bring some of the top video podcasts to Netflix. And the catch with that deal was that the full episodes of those shows could no longer live on YouTube. There is the possibility that a combined Netflix and Warner Brothers could give Netflix more runway to strike similar types of deals with creators. It could also potentially give creators new channels to distribute their content. One thing we heard about was that Netflix expects to continue theatrical releases. This is still really speculative.

5:23It's a very, very big if. I think the key word in that sentence is expects. And later in a call, Netflix's CEO, Ted Sarandos, said that theatrical release timelines will evolve. So it's still really unclear exactly what happens to that. He also did say, too, that Netflix content wouldn't necessarily be coming to theaters. And this really applied to Warner Brothers content, which, you know, aside for a few shows on HBO Max, Warner Brothers really hasn't pushed as heavily into creators as Netflix has. But the deal, no matter what, would create a larger creator-friendly rival for YouTube. And that could prompt some pretty interesting moves from YouTube.

6:06Jasmine Enberg: Yeah. And the reason we think this is that we've seen time and time again that competition forces companies to innovate. I think the rise of TikTok is the perfect example. For a long time before TikTok, a major social media, new major social media platform had not sprung up. So the platforms were kind of sitting pretty. YouTube had long form, Instagram had photos, Snapchat had disappearing videos. They all had their lane. And then suddenly TikTok comes in. All this attention shifts there. And it forced all of these platforms to compete, roll out new features. They launched creator funds. They launched their own short form video features.

6:41Jasmine Enberg: They launched their own editing apps to compete with CapCut. So all of this stuff happened as a result of TikTok's rise. It wouldn't have necessarily happened, especially not on the same timeline, without TikTok. So I think when you are, you know, you don't have competition, it's very tempting to just kind of stay status quo, roll things out, improve your product slowly. You really need the fire under you to do so. Examples of how YouTube could respond kind of to a Netflix Warner Brothers deal. They could bring back funding for creators to develop content. Obviously, they shut down YouTube originals, but maybe that's something that they bring back.

7:15Jasmine Enberg: They could start offering deals to creators to stay on the platform. I mean, we saw this earlier this year with Instagram trying to take advantage of uncertainty around TikTok. And they started cutting those deals again to TikTok creators to make reels, exclusive reels on the platform. Maybe that's something YouTube does, especially as Netflix is bringing on podcasters who are big on YouTube. They could do a number of things from, you know, dedicated ad sales people for YouTuber content. They could provide a better pipeline to get creators onto bigger screens. Obviously, YouTube is already super focused on the living room, already doing things with its products to make creator content into episodes, to make it look more like streaming platforms.

7:57Jasmine Enberg: And that's coming as to be. And other fast channels are also looking at creator content. So long list of things. And I'm sure we missed stuff. But I do think that will kick YouTube into gear if the deal goes through. Yeah. And even one of those things, I think, would be a really big win for all creators, right? The funding question is really interesting because last year I predicted that YouTube might revisit originals. And a lot of that had to do with the competition with Netflix at the time. Now, YouTube has repeatedly said that it won't be doing that, but I never say never. Netflix, for example, said for a really long time that it wouldn't launch ads, and here we are.

8:36Obviously, it is still a long shot, but also, as Kaya said last week, it's all about timing and execution with these things. And this really could be the right time. And a Netflix Warner Brothers deal could be another push in that direction. I mean, there's already signs that YouTube is doing more to support some of its top creators. It's rolling out more tools, like Kaya mentioned, to help them organize their shows into episodes and make it feel more premium or Netflix-like. It's also rolling out tools to help them score more brand deals. There's a creator marketplace, for example, that's in beta.

9:10And then there's Open Call, which has met quite a bit of criticism, but still is an indication that YouTube is focusing more on helping its creators make money outside of ad revenue sharing, of course. And then when it comes to Hollywood, I mean, there were several creators like Michelle Carre, as well as Good Mythical Morning, that were up for Emmys this year. And YouTube hosted a big four-year consideration event that I actually attended in May. So you can see that there are some indications that YouTube is starting to take this a little bit more seriously. That said, we do have to mention that all of this is very far from certain.

9:48Even if Netflix, you know, does win the bidding war in the end, it is also going to have to deflect a lot of those antitrust concerns that Kaya mentioned earlier. What is really interesting here, though, too, is that I think YouTube is going to be the strongest argument that Netflix has. It's probably also going to argue that it competes with platforms like TikTok and Instagram for, you know, time and attention, which means its share of the overall competitive market isn't actually that big at all. But anyway, expect lots of twists and turns, lots of drama and more to come from this.

10:24Jasmine Enberg: Speaking of YouTube, the world's largest YouTuber took the stage recently for a very rare interview. Yes, Mr. Beast appeared at New York Times' annual Dealbook Summit, which is always a who's who of business leaders. It always also makes a ton of news. If you remember back in 2023, that's where Elon Musk, who owns Social Platform X, famously told advertisers to F off. Last year, Dealbook also hosted Alex Cooper. So Mr. Beast is not the first creator they've had on stage. But this was really notable for a lot of reasons. The first is that Mr. Beast rarely gives interviews unless he's talking to other creators.

11:03The other is that he seemed kind of rattled at times by Andrew Ross Sorkin's line of questioning. He didn't seem fully prepared for being in the hot seat. At one point, he said something like, you ask really good questions, not just how a viral video is made. But luckily, he also had his company's CEO there to jump in. It did kind of come off as endearing, though, I think. There were a lot of chuckles in the audience and some lighthearted laughter. So it kind of felt like they were in on the joke. But I think overall, it just shows how important it is for these creators as they're building companies to bring in seasoned business leaders so that, you know, they can continue doing the work that they're good at.

11:45And Mr. Beast is, of course, best in class at what he does on YouTube.

11:49Jasmine Enberg: Totally. And his CEO is Jeff Hausenboldt, who is an ex-soft bank investor. He's very well known in Silicon Valley. And I think the other thing the interview really showed was it sort of gave some intel into the ambitions for the business. And I think Jeff helped with that. But of course, you know, Mr. Beast deserves all the credit for, you know, really studying YouTube and learning how to gain attention on the platform. So they talked about, you know, everything from a mobile company called, of course, Beast Mobile, which would have a built in financial services platform. They talked about matchmaking, Fortune 1000 brands with creators.

12:27Jasmine Enberg: And to sum it up, Jeff Hausenboldt said, you know, our mission is to be the most impactful entertainment brand in the world. Of course, they also talked about Feastables. They confirmed the$5 billion valuation for Mr. Beast's company, which has been floating around. So you could really see them positioning this as a huge business that is so beyond just, you know, a huge YouTube channel. The other thing that stood out to me was we got his point of view, Jimmy's point of view on why he wanted to do the Amazon show, because that's a question that I've gotten a lot where, yes, of course, there's cachet with doing a show with a streamer.

13:03Jasmine Enberg: But like a YouTuber like Mr. Beast has, you know, so 450 million subscribers, to be exact, that like, why does he need Amazon, right? Like he already has a huge audience. He doesn't have producers. He doesn't have people telling him what to do. He has full reign. He owns it. he monetizes it 100%. So it was interesting, because he was asked, like, why do that when you have this level of scale? And, you know, he said, you know, when you go to YouTube, you don't go there to watch a 10 episode series, right? And there's so much more of a story you can tell over the course of a season of a show compared to a 30 minute YouTube video or 10 minute YouTube video.

13:38Jasmine Enberg: And it was also really interesting, because it seems like everyone in the world knows Mr. Beast, right? But they actually don't know don't know him just from YouTube. So he said that he's had a few instances. He was at a basketball game where someone came up to him and said, oh, like, I really liked your Amazon show. And he said, oh, you know, how does it compare to my YouTube channel? And the guy was like, you do YouTube? So and you could see Mr. Beast in that moment being like, oh, I guess like people don't know who I am. And he also said this person was older and that streaming services are also a way to reach an older audience.

14:11Jasmine Enberg: So very fun interview. Fun to see kind of a seasoned journalist interview him and ask him some hard-hitting questions. What Mr. Beast didn't say on stage, though, I think is, you know, the paycheck that comes with one of these types of deals with a streaming service. So, of course, he did later say that he lost money, I think, on the Amazon show. But the prestige, right? I think, you know, there is still a prestige associated with Hollywood and streamers that even as YouTube has grown, it just doesn't have. And that's why you hear a lot of these top creators want to strike these kinds of deals.

14:45I mean, if you think back to that four-year consideration event I just talked about, it was Rhett and Link from Good Mythical Morning on stage. And, you know, the interviewer asked them, you know, why do you want an Emmy? And they basically just said, because we just want it. And so I think it's that kind of legitimacy, validation, and prestige that comes with sort of traditional media and Hollywood. But the other thing, you know, that was so interesting to me about the Mr. Beast interview is when he talked about that matchmaking platform for brands and creators. I mean, TikTok, Instagram, and even Snap have sort of dabbled in their own creator marketplaces.

15:20They haven't been very successful. YouTube has one in beta, which I think is partially just for optics to show that it's, you know, keeping pace with TikTok and Instagram. And on Tuesday, actually, Substack just released one too. I think the problem with a lot of the matchmaking platforms that are out there right now is that they're really good for brands and creators who are new to influencer marketing, but established brands and established creators really don't find a lot of value in them. Many of them have managers and agents who are helping them strike deals. A lot of them are already in long-term established relationships.

15:53But we're also in this moment now where we're seeing a lot more creators trying to go direct to brands and advertisers and vice versa. I mean, earlier this year, Colin and Samir hosted a creator up front with Spotter, for example, and I believe that LTK had one too. And so Mr. Beast's version of this kind of does feel like a combination of the two, right? It is this platform that is established by a creator. And I think if it's platform agnostic, meaning that you can strike deals on a TikTok, a YouTube, an Instagram, it might actually end up being more interesting to creators and brands and what's currently out there.

16:28So, you know, we'll be we'll be watching to see how that all plays out. So sticking with the theme of prestige for creators, the Golden Globes actually just announced their first ever nominees for the best podcast category.

16:41Jasmine Enberg: Yeah. So the full list is Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard, Alex Cooper's Call Her Daddy, Good Hang with Amy Poehler, Mel Robbins podcast, Smart List, which is from Will Arnett, Jason Bateman and Sean Hayes. and NPR's Up First, which is a daily news show. One thing that definitely stuck out to me is so many women on this list. Also very interesting to note, Amy Poehler only started her show in March of this year. So I mean, obviously, look, she has long Hollywood ties. She is extremely famous, but it shows how quickly she has built this show. And you see it on social media. She's had a really smart strategy with social.

17:18Jasmine Enberg: Of course, she's had huge big name celebrities on the show. Also some notable snubs. Joe Rogan, who topped all the major charts this year as the most popular podcast, was not included in the list. And also snubbed were right-wing personalities from Tucker Carlson to Candace Owens to Megyn Kelly. None of those made the cut for the nominee list. Yeah, I love that there are so many women on this list. I mean, I think we often think of podcasting as this predominantly male industry. And in so many ways, that's true. Like most of the top podcasts are made by men. Men are also twice as likely as women to actually start a podcast, according to new data that we got from Sounds Profitable, which is the trade organization for the podcasting industry.

18:04I don't think that that is going to come as a surprise to anybody. But what might be surprising from the data was that it also showed that once men and women have started a podcast, they are equally likely to stick with it. And what that says is that the problem for women in podcasting isn't necessarily that there isn't an audience for their content, but rather that there are other barriers to entry that are preventing them from even giving it a shock, right? And so I asked the authors of the report sort of what they thought those barriers to entry could be, and they talked about the pivot to video and how women are more quick to be judged by their appearance, and that might make them less likely to want to appear on a video podcast.

18:48And I think there's some truth to that. I also think just the overall perception of podcasting being this male space is also preventing a lot of women from even trying.

19:00Jasmine Enberg: Yeah, and I think it's something we thought about a lot, right? We're two women. It's a super crowded space. There's not a lot of female-focused podcasts about business, about the business of the creator economy. It feels like a lot of the female podcasters are more in the lifestyle genre. We definitely thought about what it means to be on video every week, but we knew obviously that's the way the market's going. It opens up so many more revenue opportunities. And I think to build on that research, there was also other research from USC Annenberg from November, which got a lot of pickup. And a lot of the headlines were like, podcasting is as bro-y as it seems.

19:35Jasmine Enberg: And they analyzed Spotify data from, I think it was 600 of the most popular podcasts of last year. And they found that within the top 100, nearly two thirds were hosted by men and nearly three quarters of all guests were also male. So it's not just the hosts, but also the guests that people are bringing on. And it also found that women were particularly underrepresented in business, tech, sports, fitness, and comedy. I mean, what other genres are there. That's like every genre. Yeah. And look, there are a few companies out there that really are working hard to promote female voices and thinking about Dear Media or Lemonada, for example.

20:12But I think just having the Golden Globes have so many women in their nominations is just that extra moment of validation and also just, you know, brings more awareness to the fact that there are so many women in the space. OK, but before we move on, Kaya, predictions. Who do you think is going to win?

20:28Jasmine Enberg: Oh, my God. Okay, I'm gonna say Alex Cooper, because I think her show has been so long standing and has also evolved so much. And she's like, so synonymous with podcasting. So I'm I'm gonna go with her. What are you thinking? You know, I would love to see Alex Cooper win. I would love to see any of them, honestly, but especially Alex Cooper, because I love her show. But I think it's gonna be Amy Poehler. I mean, that is also a great show. You're right. She has done such a good job promoting it on social. I'm obsessed with the episode with Dakota Johnson, where she talks about her dream about Maddie Healy turning into an asparagus, which you have to watch if you haven't.

21:06It is absolutely hysterical. And she's also a Hollywood celebrity. And I'm just not sure that the Golden Globes is quite ready for a true social media creator to win an award.

21:17Jasmine Enberg: Yeah, so maybe it'll go to Amy Poehler or Smartless. We'll see. We'll see. I will definitely be tuning in in February. Like any one of them would deserve it. Totally. Totally. It's a great list. It's a great list. Here's what else is going on. Stephen Bartlett, who hosts the hit podcast Diary of a CEO, has invested in another podcast, Hot Smart Rich by Maggie Sellers Room. The investment is actually through Bartlett's company Flight Story, which is a media and investment arm of Stephen.com. That company raised funding in October at a$425 million valuation, leaving a lot of people, including us, wondering what he was going to do with all of that money.

21:54So now we have some answers. There's also a ton of support for this on social media. Here's one really good example.

22:00Jasmine Enberg: I think someone who has done such a good job at building community is Maggie Sellers. She's created Hot Smart Rich out of shared values and shared goals. She's one of the strongest communities I've seen, and I'm in her community and find so much value from it. I think what's so interesting about this is that this could potentially be the start of an emerging trend of creators backing other creators. I think we've seen different flavors of it, right? I think like Alex Cooper's Unwell company, that's more her incubating other creators and bringing them into the fold and helping them launch podcasts.

22:30Jasmine Enberg: But I think like talent recognizes talent. And it also shows how much Bartlett is diversifying his business, right? Of course, he has a hugely successful podcast. But he also has a podcast tech company called Flight Studio, which does development, growth, monetization. He obviously has this investment arm, which I didn't even know about until this deal was announced. So he is thinking about his business super holistically. And it's so interesting because he has so much success with his podcast, and it's become such a popular show. But he's thinking bigger and also making some bets on other people that he think will grow to the same level.

23:05Jasmine Enberg: Okay, up next, OpenAI Sora is seeing some fading excitement. I think it had this kind of big moment when it launched, it shot to the top of the app store. Katie Notopoulos at Business Insider was the first to kind of point out last month that it seems like, I think the headline was like, I'm bored of sorrow, which the app, of course, turns text prompts into videos, but it seems like it's flopping. It had a lot of excitement. And now Bloomberg came out with a story noting the same and pointing out that the social networking aspects of the app are also falling flat. I thought this quote from a user quoted in the story summed it up pretty well.

23:45Jasmine Enberg: She said, quote, no one interacts with my posts and none of my real life friends are on the app. So my content mostly sits untouched. Yeah, I mean, this was bound to happen, right? I think app download charts, you know, are a snapshot of a moment in time. They generally aren't a good indicator of long terms to sustainability for anyone app and novelty wears off really quickly. And it's very, very hard to break through into the social space. The last one that was able to do that at scale really was TikTok and it had the pandemic to help. I mean, the novelty would be real, wore off really fast and it's still around, but barely, right?

24:22I think what's really interesting and important to note here too, is that I don't think the end goal for OpenAI is to build a social networking app with Sora that competes with the likes of Instagram or TikTok, right? I think it's more about building excitement around AI overall and turning it from something scary into something fun. It is also an enormous source of user data that OpenAI can then use to train its models and improve its overall business. That's one reason, for example, that we saw X and XAI merge earlier this year.

24:57Jasmine Enberg: All right, that's all the news we have for you this week, but super excited to bring John on to hear more about his company. Welcome to Scalable, John.

25:06Jon Youshaei: Thanks, guys. I'm so excited to be here. We're so excited to have you. And you are our first guest. I know. I know. I've been following your pod since you guys got started in your newsletter. And so to be your first guest is an honor. Thanks again for having me here. Well, we really appreciate it. And we really appreciate you being here. But before we get into all of our questions, for our viewers who don't know who you are, Could you tell us a little bit about you and the work that you do? Yeah, I used to work at YouTube and Instagram for eight years and leading a lot of their creator efforts.

25:39Jon Youshaei: And, you know, funny things happen when you spend your days like working with creators. You begin like spending your nights and weekends wondering, hey, maybe I could do this as well. And so I went for it about three years ago. And I'm proud to say like now we have a show that gets millions of views. We interview creators from Mr. Beast to Marques Brownlee. We even had like Steph Curry on the show and just like trying to really show that intersection of traditional and digital and educate creators through interviews, behind the scenes, breakdown videos, just a lot of stuff to help educate and take everything I learned from the inside and now on the outside and share that for folks.

26:12Jasmine Enberg: We definitely want to talk to you about your creator journey and that transition from the tech platforms to being a creator yourself. But first, we want to talk about your new company that you launched this week. So tell us about Boring Stuff. Love the name, by the way. Very fun.

26:26Jon Youshaei: Thank you. My co-founder, Zach, deserves a credit for the name. But basically, I saw it like, you know, throughout this journey of being a creator, like you feel a lot of like different kinds of pain. You kind of take a look at like, okay, like, like, what's something that I could potentially provide a solution to, especially like building a platform for creators. And believe me, like, I never thought I'd be in like the business of taxes and accounting and like helping creators with that thing. Like, you know, there's that old saying, like, how does it go? Like, there's only two things certain in life is like death and taxes.

26:55Jon Youshaei: And I'm not like starting a morgue, you know? So, you know, I guess the next most certain thing is taxes. And especially with creators, like creators just, I don't know what it is. Like creators are so smart creatively, intellectually. Obviously, I'm generalizing a lot of different creators. But I kid you not, I met so many creators who lost so much money from taxes, messy bookkeeping, working with accountants who, quite frankly, are dinosaurs when it comes to understanding like how the creator economy works, how transactions, how revenue works. and they missed out not just on a lot of write-offs and ability to maximize their business, but just frankly mistakes.

27:30Jon Youshaei: And I was like, you know what? Maybe there's something we could do in this space. And I wanted to be really thoughtful and careful. And I also give a lot of credit to my partner, Amanda. She had a lot of just the foresight to bring this business in place. And then we were talking with Zach. He had a similar idea and kind of joined forces. And we brought in Varun, who really has accounting and, you know, like financial background. So all that together and the clients we now have between ARAC, the Try Guys, Yes Theory, and other creators, I'm really excited to see where this goes. And that's a sentence I never thought I'd say about accounting.

28:05Yeah, I mean, I think it makes a lot of sense. One of the things that we hear all the time from creators is that the business side of things overall really is a big pain point for them. I mean, so many of them are creatives. And now we're seeing, you know, big creators bring on executives, right? CEOs, CFOs to help run their companies. With that in mind, though, what is it exactly that you think that, you know, accountants or traditional businesses don't really understand about the business of the creator economy or creators? And what is that disconnect there? And how does boring stuff help solve that?

28:37Jon Youshaei: Even talking before the know-how, it's the speed. So creators, like, it's funny, like, creators work fast and last minute. And any accountant or business person who tries to change that just does not understand the fundamental nature of the business like i will have weeks where it's like okay it's kind of a normal like nothing is ever light but it's sometimes normal and then i'll have weeks where things are so chaotic and we have deadlines and we have sponsorships and we have videos and we have guests coming on the show oh my god and and now i got to file my quarterly taxes it's like it's just like everything is coming to a head at last minute and basically we've trained our accountants as like a concierge service like you you need it last minute you need quick turnaround, we're there for you.

29:16Jon Youshaei: In terms of write-offs, like understanding, okay, so home studio, how much of that can you write off and save as far as expenses? There's a lot of things that come to like when it's like on camera purchase of or off camera. So there's a lot of nuances that, you know, again, I got to give Amanda a lot of credit. Like she went through this process and became so informed and educated about tax code. And then we started bringing in accountants and just like making sure we're training and vetting the right ones.

29:41Jasmine Enberg: And what's the business model, you're opting for a retainer model, but tell us a little bit about what that means and kind of why go that route versus some sort of revenue sharing or other structure.

29:50Jon Youshaei: Yeah, I'll be honest. Whenever I hear revenue sharing and it's like right off the bat, I'm like, okay, whoa, when did we get married? And for us, like a retainer model, we're not trying to take a piece of your business, trying to focus on the things that you need the most help with and taxes, bookkeeping, payroll, and just trying to assess like, okay, what are the costs on our end to service that and do it in a way that meets creators like where they are, like works fast, like speaks like in their language, doesn't like have all this jargon and how can we put a monthly retainer to it that makes sense?

30:25Jon Youshaei: And then by the way, it's like a buffet. So it's like, okay, if they want more services, like a few creators want HR and payroll, like, okay, like there's more discussions to flex that up or down. So I'm super curious about how you brought boring stuff to life. So what was the timeline, right? From idea to launch? What were the steps that you had to take in order to bring this to market? Yeah. So here's the inside scoop. Like, so we, a year ago, Amanda and I were like, why are taxes like, it's just, it's either too expensive and you've got to hire a firm or you go with somebody who doesn't understand creators like we talked about.

31:03Jon Youshaei: And we'd been getting approached by a lot of folks like, hey, why don't you start a thumbnail agency? Or why don't you start a editing house? Or what? Well, like just a lot of things that I think other creators I'm sure have been pitched and we're like I don't know I I like this accounting thing seems like a big problem it's a it's a reoccurring need it's a subscription business and at the end of the day like we I really believe that it takes away creators from the work that makes them successful and creative simultaneously like Zach who has managed ARAC and Yes Theory and and I I think he's so sharp and and he was like thinking about accounting and finance and we just we we we just do catch-ups every now and then.

31:43Jon Youshaei: And he was telling me about it. I was like, we're thinking about something similar as well. And when two different parties have a similar idea, there's probably some validity in it to test it. And then, so eventually, like, we were like, you know what, why don't we join forces?

31:58Jasmine Enberg: So many startups kind of in the 2021 venture boom era tried to do, you know, tax services and accounting for creators. A lot of them raised big VC money. I covered many of them when I was at the information. Very few of them succeeded. So curious kind of what's different about your, your approach. And are you learning anything from kind of what didn't work for other startups in the past?

32:18Jon Youshaei: Slow and steady. Like, like, there's a reason why we haven't talked about it over a year. And we really try to perfect the service and be our own guinea pigs. Like, so in terms of like the venture backed businesses, and like, I like, like, we've talked to a few VCs, but for us, it's like, let's just provide the best service possible. Let's scale with the folks that we know, like, really are getting value from this and and then go from there. And there's a lot of ideas of like where I think we could take this and hopefully like grow in the space.

32:45Jasmine Enberg: Was there a reason that you wanted to do this now? Was this just something that you felt like was untapped? Or was there a certain reason for the timing of launching now?

32:53Jon Youshaei: Yeah, I whenever I do interviews with creators is like also a great hangout session. And you get to hear about like, what's going well, what's going bad. And the more stories I heard about, like, it just just come out of the woodwork as be like, like, they talk about their financials. I like to ask about a lot of specific stuff and numbers in interviews. And there's a lot of off-camera conversations after that. And they ask for advice. And then just after I'm hearing more and more conversations, and I'm hearing it from some of the smartest minds, and I'm realizing, well, this is just a need that I think we can help a ton with.

33:28Jon Youshaei: And if we build the right team, we're uniquely positioned to grow it. So speaking of building a team, your background obviously isn't in taxes or accounting. Are you planning on hiring or contracting tax accountants? What does, you know, your future hires look like? Well, we already are. I mean, the whole like boring stuff as a separate business, like that is like a, we're like, like, like hiring, betting, like accountants, like they, like, these aren't just people who like, like, oh, I think I understand creators. No, they're, they're they're they're they understand creators uh they've gone through our process and uh they have an accounting background and have done it for years so these are like vetted certified experts like coming um along with like the the the um packaging and the communication and the speed that creators deserve so it's not uh it's it and and we're actively hiring and growing especially now that we're publicly launched so this past year has been okay do we have a deep bench and roster for that.

34:29Jon Youshaei: And Varun, my other co-founder, is directly responsible for that. So we wanted to bring in somebody who really speaks to that. And each of the co-founders have a different specialty so we could hopefully divide and conquer and be in really great shape.

34:43Jasmine Enberg: Well, how are you measuring success? And do you have sort of like an end goal, high level mission with the company?

34:48Jon Youshaei: Our goal to grow? I mean, I used to be like, hey, here's my five year plan. Here's my 10 year plan. But things change so quickly that I just want to build a great, solid business that serves our clients and brings in good cash flow and be able to do bigger and bigger things in the future. So if you're asking about like, oh, is there an exit plan? I mean, I just want to build a solid business. I know our distribution with our channel is continuing to grow. And I just want to do right by our audience and now our customers. So boring stuff obviously, you know, solves a problem that you found in the market as you've been a creator yourself.

35:23And like you, I mean, Kaya and I covered creators and social media and technology for so long. You know, we we had been thinking for a very long time about joining the creator economy ourselves. And here we are. It was, you know, a pretty scary transition, which is part of the reason that we decided to do it together. Curious to know, you know, what finally pushed you to to make the jump?

35:46Jon Youshaei: I'm curious, like, like to hear your perspectives, too. but I don't know I think there comes a time where um you take a risk and and I think um I remember one creator like kind of walked me through his finances uh when I was at Instagram and he's like and I'm like what like you make how much per month and and and just seeing that number and and because sometimes you hear like oh creators are becoming a thing and and uh I don't know I had so many ideas that I felt I was like scratching the surface and the other thing is Amanda and I were like starting to plan our life. We're about to get married.

36:22Jon Youshaei: We were thinking about when we're going to have a kid. And I was like, all right. And then we started pulling our savings together, um, in terms of, all right, let's, let's, uh, let's give this a real shot. Cause I didn't want to just go into it as a hobby. Like I wanted to come out with a big swing and I, you know, that that's why our first interview, like we flew to Puerto Rico to interview Jake and Logan Paul, you know, and that took a lot of money and with the crew. And so, um, and, and since then, I mean, it was just like I was a big believer on like production value of the interview, both from pre-production to the to the questions.

36:52Jon Youshaei: And so that took a lot of savings to like pour in and just I mean, there's so many stories of like interviews and stuff that I'm like, I'm still shocked that they happened. I was like, I have to go for this. And I can't I can't be one of those coulda, woulda, shoulda like parents. Like when I talk to my daughter about like, I had this dream and, you know, like, yeah, I don't know what would have happened. But here I am at year 40 of corporate, like, you know, and and there's nothing wrong with corporate and working that job. And like, but but I do think there's something just worthwhile of just answering that what if question.

37:31Jasmine Enberg: I think that resonates a lot. I mean, one thing you said is support, right? Having supportive people in your life, having a plan. You talked about savings. You had kind of your content and launch strategy. I think Jasmine and I went through similar. What, beyond kind of some of those logistical things, is there anything else you did to really, like, prepare for that transition? And also curious what's been the most surprising thing that you've learned since taking the jump? Because I think you, Jasmine, and I all talked to a lot of creators. We kind of went into it knowing, you know, the burnout, the risks, the, you know, I feel like we all came into it educated.

38:04Jasmine Enberg: But even us in the few months that we've been doing this, I feel like have been really surprised at some of the challenges. of building in the space. Yeah.

38:14Jon Youshaei: And first off, Kai, I just want to like, agree with what you said. And just like for anybody listening, this job is more stressful than my last jobs combined. But I would not trade the stress of this job for the stress of those jobs. It's a very odd to say that, because I'm working longer nights, I'm up like, I feel responsibility. Like, I just when when we're hiring, I'm like, Oh, my God, like this is this they're leaving their job. They're starting with us. I don't know. I think the thing that I that also prepared me to answer your question is, you guys know imposter syndrome, that the term that's like thrown around.

38:48Jon Youshaei: Oh, yeah. Do we know? It's like, I'm also a big believer. I don't know many people that talk about this public. I'm also a big believer in anti imposter syndrome, anti imposter syndrome. And my view is like, you ever have that feeling when you're in a conversation, you know, something or you've been studying it, or your experience or your you practiced it, and then somebody across the table says something that is so out of pocket like it's like it's such bs it's like what are you talking about like you say that silently to yourself and that there's like a little fire that that burns i felt that so much when i was at youtube and instagram when people i would watch videos about here's how the algorithm works meanwhile like i just met with the pm and and and team and we're talking about like search and discovery and and and and so many times like i just heard things that people claim to be experienced about when they weren't when i had put in the time.

39:37Jon Youshaei: And I think as a creator, especially like trying to share education, like if you feel that way, there's probably a point of view that you have that can be articulated in a video in a newsletter, whatever form of media you follow. And you should at some point, like I'm not saying it's for everyone, but just follow that a little bit further. One of the other things I think that really resonated me that you talked about was how this is the most stressful job you've ever had. And yet you still wouldn't trade it for any of your previous roles. I feel that deeply every single day. I mean, there's so much going on.

40:12We're writing a newsletter, a podcast. We're trying to plan an event in the spring of next year. And it's just being pulled from direction to direction. And there's a lot of highs. There's also a lot of lows. And there's also, you know, moments of real frustration where you think you're on the right path and you think you're growing. and then you realize that there's still so much more runway. So I'm curious to know, how long did it really take you to grow from, you know, that Jake and Logan Paul video out in Puerto Rico to sort of where you are now? And did you set certain growth goals for yourself or a timeline you wanted to achieve a specific metric, for example, or a specific threshold?

40:52Jon Youshaei: Your question like speaks to two different parts of me. Like, I feel like before I started this job, I could list off a bunch of goals. And honestly, it's, it's a bunch of science fiction, like I could tell you, like, we had this revenue grow, we had this subscriber goal. And now I'm just like, okay, how do I make the best next video possible? And I know that's a cliche answer. But the caveat is and become more efficient, and become more process like oriented. So we do a lot of remote interviews. And I've noticed the process of that there's a lot of things that are repetitive, no matter what city we're in.

41:24Jon Youshaei: And we just try to dial it in as much as possible. And And now we have like a checklist of like, okay, do we have like this camera set up on this tripod? Do we have this lens? Are we zoomed in this much? Like that's the shot. And I think that's where like Amanda is just like shined in helping grow our business and having like, yeah, just like bringing like much more of a production know-how. And yeah, making sure we're streamlined. Like even more recently, this will go out like more publicly soon. But as a little teaser, we're working on like an eight-episode documentary series that's going to be coming out next year.

41:57Jon Youshaei: and um just like that like has been like a huge pre-production process production like between camera operators audio uh guys like um DITs like just you know how do you organize like all the storage and footage like like when you're filming with five six cameras every day like so um it's like okay can we make the best next best thing creatively but also be sound operationally so that unlocks more of those opportunities and so far it has like I can't believe some of the things that we've been able to do travel shoots where we go to England or we go to Greenville to film with Jimmy and just like it's been unreal and I think that's been unlocked because we've been able to make this a sustainable engine.

42:37Can you tell us what the documentary is about?

42:39Jon Youshaei: Yeah we're um we filmed with uh Jimmy as he like we were with him for 45 days as he filmed Beast Game season two and so uh we did uh behind the scenes of like how he went about that his life his team like just how they pulled off one of the biggest shows in history um and uh yeah i can't wait for that to come out it's going to be yeah it's i'm i'm beyond excited because it's been probably five months of work now and just like while running the youtube channel and like building that and just like i i really want to do more in the unscripted and documentary space and i i can't wait for folks to see this because like the initial episodes that we've been putting together and just sharing just yeah it's some of the work i'm most proud of and i'm so grateful to jimmy and the team and Amazon for this opportunity.

43:23Jasmine Enberg: To go back, you sort of talk about implementing these processes and making the best videos possible. What do you think it takes to really make it in this business? Is it creativity? Is it being organized? Is it hiring the right people around you? Is it a combination of those? Like, what does it really take to see success as a creator today a clear point of view you know and and and and articulating that and then also trying to again figure out a way to make that sustainable like I I know so many people who

43:56Jon Youshaei: are great artistically and they live in that zone and they make such amazing stuff but there's not a business model behind it and sometimes it's okay that's a hobby it's okay or um you could tell they go into a format that other people have done or like, like, you know, like podcasting, like, people have done that for so long before. And so, you know, one example is like, I'd watch a lot of like, interviews and podcasts, I'm like, what's going on with the intro? It's like, so whack. You know, it's like, it's like, it could be so much more interesting. So we spend just as much time on the intro now as we do the interview.

44:35Jon Youshaei: And that's like, you know, sometimes an hour, hour and a half, two hour interview. And then versus a 60 second trailer, we'll spend the same amount of time to make it really feel like a movie trailer. I think it takes a point of view. And then it takes enough like, humility and understanding to be like, okay, I'm probably gonna like mess up and I got to develop a product. Like I made so many mistakes and so many things I spent on I get shiny objects syndrome and all that. But it's like, okay, was that worth it? What about it was and let's let's make it better for the next time. So what is your tech stack like?

45:06What products are you using? What different types of tools? How much are you using AI in your work?

45:11Jon Youshaei: We use Opus Clip quite a bit. Full disclosure, they've been a sponsor and partner of us for quite a bit now just to go from long form to short form and clip things. And just that's another thing like I've been really excited about is like, you know, a lot of the tools and like tech that we use, because they're creator tools, they oftentimes come to us and be like, hey, can we do like a monthly consulting in addition to a sponsorship? Because my background being in like product marketing, it's like, like wearing that hat, though I don't talk about as much publicly it's like something that's been really great i mean we use uh discord to organize like our team internally we also have a public facing discord so i like being able to like go between my internal team and make sure that we have all the we have different threads for different video projects that we have and you know those are broken down by like trailer uh body like thumbnail graphics etc and then we have our public facing one where like you know folks who go to the created discord and uh they get thumbnail feedback idea feedback um yeah it's so funny i don't think about like i don't know like is there a specific tool or thing you're curious about i don't i don't think about like i've never written one of those x posts where it's like my tech stack is this like i i maybe i should do a proper audit i i wasn't one of those i mean for us like it's g

46:27Jasmine Enberg: suite like we live in g suite google docs like that's like that's critical to our business which Like I hear that from a lot of creators, but like, what are the products you use that are just like critical to get done what you need to get done? Ours also includes Canva, though, I have to say, because I have been learning Canva for the past month and a half. And it has not been easy, not because of Canva being difficult, but because it is an entirely new skill set for me.

46:53Jon Youshaei: Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's interesting. We use Canva like it's I like to because, again, I'm a big believer in everyone on our team is a designer. So we have folks who, if they want to sketch out a concept before somebody in Adobe After Effects really gets technical with it and designs it, we'll do it in Canva or even like Keynote or PowerPoint just to get like a mock-up and then make it visual and be like, because a lot of our interviews, like there's like three editors on the trailer, the body, and then the graphics. And the graphics get time-consuming as well. But when you can mock it up and yeah, use Canva, it's been great.

47:24Jasmine Enberg: I'm sure the design ethos also comes from your Instagram days because Adam Maseri is famously a designer and I know that app has been very, very design focused from from the beginning.

47:34Jon Youshaei: Oh, 100%. And not to mention, like, Instagram is so thoughtful about design that like, if you ever go to their offices, like, you'll notice, I don't know if they still do this, but they won't put a trash can on the outside of a conference room, because they want everything to be like, tidy and all that. And that goes from like, the conference room to like the app. And yeah, so there's like, yeah, to your point, there's definitely a lot of things I've learned when I was on Instagram that we apply now.

47:58Jasmine Enberg: To go back to AI for a second, how are you feeling thinking about AI? I think there's some fear, there's some excitement, but curious, do you think it's overhyped, underhyped for creators? How big of a threat is it to the creator economy? What's your point of view?

48:12Jon Youshaei: Well, I'm the eternal optimist. So anything I say, you got to just like filter through that. Like I'm like, the glass is not just half full. It's like tipping over type of guy. So I really believe that for creativity, like, like, there's a lot of other conversation that could be had about AI and like job automation and all that, that I think is just like a lot of hard truths and can be scary. But for creativity, I think like, it's going to be such an amplifier. And, and also, I think this is one of the reasons that if folks are listening, they're thinking about becoming a creator, it's going to get harder and harder because if you don't have a brand or if you don't have trust the more content that comes out through ai deciphering the bs from what's been there like the fact that somebody could go on chat gbt and say like write something in the voice of john yushai and there's enough data there and there's enough public posts that can give them an output but if they do that it it's it's our it's like a a worse version or a copy versus something that we've been building for years now i feel like every creator has to develop that moat and develop that brand and develop that trust because it's going to get easier and easier to put out better and better output.

49:20Final question. What advice do you have for us as first time founders and creators, actually?

49:27Jon Youshaei: I don't know. My micro answer, like in terms of like, like advice and all that is like, it sounds so crazy, but thumbnails matter. I like, I was just looking at your thumbnails before and I feel like even more people could be like getting value from the conversations and the breakdowns that you guys had. I don't know if you mentioned, Jasmine, you're like working in Canva. Like I remember when I was like, just like trying to do the design and try to like figure that out while doing the interview prep while, you know, trying to like, you know, make sure the audio sounded good. So I just think about, yeah, the like, so we need better thumbnails.

49:57Jasmine Enberg: You're being super nice. You're going to coach us with our thumbnails offline.

50:00Jon Youshaei: Well, and that's like if YouTube is a focus versus like, you know, like, like news, like you guys are fantastic writers and reporters and bring a real like journalistic like background to an industry that really needs it. So it's like, okay, it's written more of that. And because, yeah, so I don't know. I don't have a lot of advice for you guys because I think you're so well-versed in what you've done. And more than anything, I think the biggest thing was like taking a leap and the risk that you have. And now it's just about like the time and the reps and the hours.

50:30Jasmine Enberg: Thank you so much. We so appreciate it.

50:34Jon Youshaei: Of course. Thank you so much for tuning in and we will see you back here next Thursday. Find out more Hasan