Why the NFL is all-in on creators and where influencer marketing M&A is headed next

0:00Hi, everyone. This is Scalable, a weekly show about the business of the creator economy.

0:04Jasmine Enberg: I'm Kaya Yurieff. And I'm Jasmine Enberg. Every Thursday, we take you beyond the headlines to tell you what's happening, what it means, and why it matters.

0:15Your call has been forwarded to an automatic voice message system. A missed call doesn't feel like anything. No red flag, no notifications screaming at you. It just disappears into your call log. And nine times out of ten, that was someone ready to hand you money. That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Q-U-O, the business phone system built so you never miss a call. Here's what I like about it. All your calls, texts, and voicemails live in one place, so anyone on your team can pick up a conversation, see the full history, and respond fast. No more, wait, who talked to this customer last?

0:51And if you're worried about after-hours leads slipping through, Quo's optional built-in AI agent can answer questions and even book appointments while your team's offline. It's the number one rated business phone system on G2, and over 90 ,000 businesses already trust it to stay reachable. Money is on the line. Always say hello with Quo. Try Quo for free. Plus get 20 % off your first six months when you go to Quo.com slash tech. That's Q-U-O dot com slash tech. 160 creators are going to the Super Bowl this year. We'll tell you why many of them are not sports creators.

1:33Hi, Jasmine. Hey, Kaya. We are on the road again. As you can see from my background, I'm not in my typical space. I am back in the Middle East this week, this time in Doha, speaking at Web Summit Qatar.

1:44Jasmine Enberg: I was also in the desert this week, but on the other side of the world, There were also no camels, which after watching the video that you sent me, Kaya, I am both disappointed and happy about at the same time. Okay, so I promise I worked very hard in my trip in Doha, but I did sneak away for a desert tour because that has been on my bucket list. And I was super excited to ride a camel, but there was an issue with the saddle of the camel. So I am hanging on for dear life. I look like Superman. I am so glad you're letting us play this, by the way. I mean I debated but I was like it's just so funny it's so funny and my boyfriend who was filming me was like sit up like what are you doing and I'm like I can't I'm gonna fall off and in fairness after I watched every single other person who rode the camel had the same issue so there was something with the saddle and this and this camel had an extra large hump so I just had everything stacked against me but it was on my list we and when we were in Dubai we did not have time for the desert or camel.

2:45So I was happy to sneak this in on this trip.

2:47Jasmine Enberg: I'm very happy you were able to sneak it into. I've done it once before. I honestly, I don't think my experience was like that because I'm sure I would have remembered it. But thank you for sending me that video. I watched it 100 times literally laughed out loud. It was incredible. But while Kaya was off riding a camel in the desert, I was in Palm Springs in California at the IAB's annual leadership meeting. I was there hosting a fireside chat with Zach Miller, who's the president of Bucket Squad, which is Jesser's sports apparel company. It was a great event, and we'll tell you more about both of the events later on in the episode.

3:27Later in the show, we will also be joined by Jennifer Quigley-Jones, who is the founder of influencer marketing company Digital Voices. In case you missed it, Digital Voices was acquired by PMG Advertising Agency in January.

3:39Jasmine Enberg: Yeah, and we also went deeper into this topic in Tuesday's newsletter, we looked at the sale of digital voices to PMG in the broader context of all of the M &A that's happening within the influencer agency landscape. We got some data from quartermaster advisors, which shows that influencer marketing M &A is showing no signs of slowing down. There have already been four influencer marketing agency acquisitions in January alone. And one of those, of course, is digital voices. And it follows a really big year of influencer M &A in 2025. Last year, about 21 % or a fifth of all creator economy M &A deals were of agencies.

4:19Jasmine Enberg: Within that category, influencer marketing agencies were the number one type of company that were acquired. That category also includes things like social agencies as well as podcast booking agencies. I don't think this will come as a surprise to anybody who's been following the M &A space within the creator economy. You've seen big holding companies and other companies really snapping up influencer marketing agencies as they're trying to bolster their efforts there. But I think the implications for the independent agencies are also really interesting because they're finding it harder and harder to compete with these big companies when it comes to media spend and scale.

4:56Jasmine Enberg: So we talked all about that in our newsletter, which I hope you all go check out. And we will certainly see more of this type of M &A this year as well. So let's dive into the news. The Super Bowl is on Sunday in the San Francisco Bay Area, and the NFL is inviting a record number of creators. They're also hosting, you know, in the lead up to the Super Bowl, all sorts of events. And it's, I think, most interesting to see who they invited because the NFL has been developing its influencer strategy since 2019. But it's really been ramping it up over the years. And it's expanded to include all types of creators from comedy to fashion to food.

5:33if you're thinking, why is a food creator right at the Super Bowl? But they're sharing tailgating recipes, fashion, you know, and lifestyle creators are showing what they're wearing to the games. And this is all really with the goal of the NFL reaching younger audiences, as well as casual sports fans. In the week leading up to the Super Bowl, you know, the NFL is hosting all sorts of different events like the YouTube flag football game with creators. And it's really interesting because this list is quite expansive. I mean, they had Mr. Beast last year and other creators, But it's interesting who is on this list.

6:04Jasmine Enberg: Yeah, totally. And in case you missed it, the NFL also just named Darman its chief kindness officer. Darman, of course, is not typically associated with sports, but he is a hugely popular creator on YouTube. He has more than 26 million subscribers. I'll be honest that I think quite a few people cringed when they saw this headline. I mean, obviously, it is great for Darman. I mean, he's partnering with the NFL. The NFL also gets a lot of buzz and media headlines from all of this. But I do think to many people, it felt a little bit like a stunt. Right. And it was very reminiscent of the period of time when all these brands were naming chief TikTok officers.

6:44Jasmine Enberg: They weren't real C-suite roles. Darman, of course, is not getting a real C-suite role within the NFL. Nor does he have the time for one. No, absolutely not. And so, you know, it kind of just what reminded me of that time period. On a positive front, though, it is more than just a headline and it is more than just a title. So Dara is going to be making a lot of content for the NFL around in the week leading up to the Super Bowl and at the Super Bowl itself, because he's one of those creators who's going to be attending. So clearly, of course, there is a deeper partnership here. And I think big picture, you know, just inviting all of these creators to the Super Bowl gives the NFL this guaranteed source of social content that they can then use to attract younger audiences who aren't potentially watching the main event on traditional channels or maybe even at all.

7:33Jasmine Enberg: And this was something that actually came up in my conversation with Zach at the IAB's summit just yesterday. And I had asked him why sports leagues and brands need to be partnering with sports creators when sporting events like the Super Bowl are one of the only reasons why people still tune into traditional TV and they still get really massive audiences. And one of the things that he said is that it's not just about the game anymore. And you have all these creators who are creating shoulder content, meaning things like reaction videos or commentary or highlight reels or other stories that surround the game that younger viewers in particular are tuning into.

8:12Jasmine Enberg: And the other thing was, is that he said that a lot of Jester's content is actually now being viewed on TVs, which probably also isn't surprising given the YouTube is TV mantra, and that it's families that are watching together. So it's not just, you know, kids and younger audiences, it's their parents as well. Yeah. And back to Dar for a second. I think we've seen a lot of different companies do this over the years with different takes on it. I mean, most of it's symbolic, right? It's to generate some PR, to generate a headline. You know, the benefit is also to the creator, right? To say, like, I'm, you know, have this honorary title with a brand like the NFL.

8:46But I think our question is, like, how much are these creators really advising behind the scenes, right? Like with Dar, we see he's very forward facing. He's doing a series of content and he's on site at the Super Bowl. But I think in other cases, I do hope that brands are tapping creators for their strategic advice too when they bring them into these kind of positions, right? Because it's not just promotional purposes, right? Creators can do a lot of behind the scenes strategy, product testing, all that kind of stuff. So I think one interesting example to point to is John Deere, which took it one step further and actually hired for one year a chief tractor officer who was basically, you know, on a one year contract that generated a lot of headlines because the salary was about$200 ,000.

9:28And that was really to hire a TikTok creator to run their social media strategy and get them, you know, set up with organic content. So they actually did hire someone, you know, who was a full time employee of John Deere. So and, and I remember they were a bit cheeky about it to saying, you know, a lot of these people are doing, you know, chief cupcake officer, right? And it's not really doing much with it. So we've seen a wide variety of approaches here with brands trying to tap creators. But at the end of the day, it does feel like it's a publicity move.

9:56Jasmine Enberg: Beyond everything that you just mentioned, creators are also consumers, right? They're using the product. And if you're working with a creator who organically loves and uses your product, I'm sure they have many ideas in terms of how you could either improve it or how you could market it better to customers. So another key part of the NFL strategy this year is not just to expand to a Gen Z audience and an audience that's not just its core football fans, but also to get a broader international audience. And so this year, the NFL has said it's going to play nine international games across four continents and seven countries.

10:29Jasmine Enberg: That's up from last year. And it's a record number of international games. Last year, if you remember, because we talked about it on this podcast, and I was watching it, the NFL also hosted a game on YouTube, which of course has a global audience, unlike the broadcasters that normally host the games here on traditional TV. Creators obviously are a huge part of that strategy as well. And Kaya, I know that one of the creators who's actually going to be at the Super Bowl, you spoke with them at Web Summit this week. Yes. So I interviewed Max Klemenko at Web Summit this week. He is a Ukrainian creator who's now based in London.

11:04He is best known for his Career Ladder series on social media. So if you haven't seen it. He tries to guess people's jobs while standing with them on a ladder. So you can get the metaphor there. And it was interesting to talk to Max to hear his perspective, because he sort of fits that bucket, right? He's a non-sports creator, and he's international. So he told me that in general, like he loves sports, especially tennis. He's a big tennis fan. And he's had athletes on his show, but it's not the focus of his videos. So the NFL actually invited him to attend a game for the first time in London in October, and he will be at the Super Bowl on Sunday.

11:36He had Aaron Jones, who is a running back for the Minnesota Vikings on the ladder, and he had no idea who he was. So he had to guess his, his job. And he was, and I was like, oh, you didn't know who he was. And he was like, no, I'm not a super fan. Like, I'm not a super fan of football.

11:50Jasmine Enberg: So of course, I had to Google it. But I was like, you didn't know. So he told me, you know, the bottom line is if you want to broaden your audience as a sport, you can't just work with, you know, football and sports and NFL related creators. But it was interesting because he also cautioned a bit about the approach, right? So when you work with creators who aren't big fans of sports, he was like, personally, like, when I'm a big tennis fan. So if I'm seeing creators, you know, get these great seats at Wimbledon and then leave before the match is over, like, that's not a great look either. So it was sort of interesting where he was like, more from the creator side, like, yes, at the end of the day, this is positive for the sport, and it broadens the audience.

12:30But like, he was like, I hope creators really embrace these opportunities and are not like leaving early. So that was kind of interesting, too. I mean, obviously this, you know, the hope is that, you know, having creators at these matches games, whatever the sport is, it leads to more, you know, more tickets, you know, all that kind of stuff. But it was interesting to kind of hear that perspective. Of course, he's very excited. He would not give us any intel on what his plans are for the Super Bowl in terms of content, but he will have his ladder there, of course. And I was like, oh, but don't you think a lot of the people whose jobs you're guessing will be related to football?

13:01And he's like, no, because think about all the people in the audience, right? They're from so many different kind of walks of life. So we will be looking out to see what Max is posting.

13:09Jasmine Enberg: I mean, I think, you know, overall, and I think Max kind of hit the nail on the head here, like the big takeaway from this is that sports leagues have realized that they need to expand the type of creators that they work with in order to expand their audiences, whether it's reaching younger people or people in other countries. And I have to say that I think that a lot of this has to do with Taylor Swift. I mean, if you think about last year and her appearance at all of those games, I mean, that brought in a whole new audience of mostly women and girls, me included in that. Because, I mean, she's obviously not a social media creator, but she does have a fandom that is very similar to a lot of YouTube creators.

13:44Jasmine Enberg: And so there are a lot of parallels to be drawn here. And I think the other thing that was so interesting about, you know, Taylor Swift being at these games is that it also you heard all these stories about how families started watching the games together. You had dads and daughters really bonding over football, which never really happened before. And anecdotally, I can tell you that that's true. I mean, my sisters and I were texting about football and in a group chat with my mom and my dad. And that like never happened before that. I mean, of course, the flip side of it is that the NFL and Taylor Swift, very unfairly, I think, received a lot of criticism for how much, you know, she was shown at the games.

14:21Jasmine Enberg: But you got to give what the people what they want. And I think that's what the NFL was really leaning into. Yeah. And I think that's Max's point, right? Like there is a tension and a balance, right? Like you need to still cater to the hardcore football fans. But at the same time, they want to expand their audience. And one way to do that is with creators. And they did not show her that much on screen. It was like a blip every now and then. But anyway, moving on, because we had another big event last weekend. It was the Grammys. This year, Grammy viewership fell again with just 14.4 million viewers tuning into the show.

14:55Jasmine Enberg: It was also the last year that the Grammys aired on CBS. They're going to be going to ABC starting next year. So let's see if they come up with interesting ways to bring more viewers into the show. A new host, of course, could be part of that. Trevor Noah said that after six years, he's also stepping down from the Grammys. But maybe they should have just given the rights to TikTok instead of ABC. Or YouTube. Or YouTube. No, I mean, I'm kidding, kind of. I mean, the point is, is that TikTok actually had a really big night at the Grammys because so many of the artists, in fact, all of the artists that were nominated for the best new artist category had a breakout viral moment on TikTok in the past year.

15:34Jasmine Enberg: So you had Olivia Dean, who took home that award, and then, of course, Lola Young as well, who took home the award for Best Pop Solo Performance for her song, Messy. And both of those songs have been used in about 2 million TikTok videos each, so obviously they're very big on the app. A lot of people, including us in our newsletter, pointed out that Messy is also a very good way to describe the show last Sunday. There were definitely some standout performances, including from Justin Bieber, Lady Gaga. Obviously, it was a huge night for Bad Bunny. He also kind of teetered on breaking his contract with the NFL when he sang a teeny tiny bit of his song with Trevor Noah after being kind of coerced into doing so.

16:16Jasmine Enberg: But, you know, a lot of the big, most memorable moments really were mistakes and mishaps. I mean, Cher, of course, walked off stage before she presented the award for the record of the year, had to be called back. And then when she finally did announce the winner, she announced it as Luther Vandross, who has, you know, been dead since 2005 instead of Kendrick Lamar. So a lot of kind of chaos was happening during the show. Yes. Although big week for Bad Bunny because he, of course, will be doing the halftime show at the Super Bowl. So very, very big win for him. And a lot of people also said that he brought some life back into the Grammys because there was so many memes and excitement around him being there.

16:59Alex Warren, who, as you know, if you listen to this podcast, I'm a big fan of. He lost Best New Artist, but also speaking of messy, his audio was messed up when he performed. So he was hearing, you know, you know, the wrong track in his earpiece and the sound was off. And in true creator form, he made a very funny reel and tick talk about it. So he is staying with those creator roots. So to talk a little bit about kind of our experiences this week, we have talked quite a bit about the Middle East and how it's become, you know, a new area of investment where they're really interested in creators.

17:31So we saw Dubai go first. It seems like now Doha is interested in following a little bit in Dubai's footprints with their interest in the creator economy. This was my first time at any Web Summit. Of course, it's a major tech conference, which takes place in Lisbon as well as other cities around the world. But attendees told me that Web Summit Qatar had a much bigger focus on the creator economy this year than last year. It's only been in Qatar for three years. But it's really yet another example of how every conference is incorporating creators, creator economy panels, et cetera. Logan Paul was one of the major creators who spoke this year.

18:06And it was interesting because he was actually there to talk about being the GP of his investment fund. And he was talking about AI. So of course, like, yes, the creators are in to kind of draw the crowds. But it was sort of this metaphor to me because it feels like so many, you know, whether it's countries or creators are all trying to diversify and sort of be what they're not. Right. Like the Middle East, I think, in general, wants to be seen, you know, not just as, you know, the oil industry, but also as a place of tech innovation and culture and creators and all this stuff. So same thing. Logan Paul, best known for YouTube, of course, has expanded into a boxing career and now into investing.

18:39So I think these conferences are a way for creators and countries both to kind of position themselves in a different light. Stephen Bartlett, the Diary of the CEO, podcaster, host was also there. And I also spoke with Kaz Sawyer, who is a creator with more than 20 million followers across social platforms. He's kind of known for his viral kind of stenty videos. And we talked about the modern business stack of a creator, both in terms of the tech tools that you need and the team you need to build. And I recorded actually a special podcast interview with him, which will run in the future. One other thing that's happening in Qatar this week is Art Basel, which is also here for the first time.

19:15So it just kind of goes to show you again how much the Middle East is expanding here. But I think in general, Web Summit always brings together a lot of really interesting people. Definitely felt more formal to a typical tech conference. A lot of people in suits, dressed up. I did sneak out to go to the desert. So as you can see from the Campbell video that we showed earlier, I did have a little bit of downtime to go do that.

19:40Jasmine Enberg: So those were the highlights for me. Yeah, I mean, speaking of every conference really having a creator economy track, the IAB had one this year as well. I mean, they've always had some creator related programming, but this was like the first year that they went really big on it. And that was, you know, why I was there. um overall i mean palm springs it was it was amazing it was honestly one of the most productive conferences i have been to in a very very long time the iab has been doing this for 30 years if you can imagine that so obviously they know how to put on an event it draws a very high quality crowd and people really are there to do business there were a lot of suits although i saw some fun outfits too um but you know kind of kind of a similar vibe but very focused obviously on advertising and marketing.

20:27Jasmine Enberg: On a personal level, it was really fun to see old friends as well as old colleagues from eMarketers, some of whom were speaking on the same stage that I was on. I would say the biggest topics at the conference were measurement as well as AI. I don't think that's going to come as a surprise to anybody. One of the standout sessions for me actually was an AI session. It was about how AI and shopping are intersecting. Obviously, this is a huge topic. You hear about this at pretty much any sort of commerce-related or AI-related conference. But the way that the IAB did it was really interesting. It was far more tactical and really kind of trying to educate brands in terms of how you actually adapt to this kind of new shopping environment.

21:12Jasmine Enberg: And so they had on stage the global head of marketing and digital strategy for Mondelez. And she said something that I think kind of hit a nerve with everybody in the crowd. you could hear like an audible gasp. So Mondelez owns Oreo, which is the most popular cookie in the world. And there's one estimate that says that it accounts for 27 % of cookie sales in the US. So that is enormous, right? But if you're looking at responses and LLMs and chatbots, it only shows up about 10 % of the time. And that is an insane gap and just has so many implications for how brands have to rethink the kind of content that they're creating, as well as the different platforms that they're showing up in.

21:54Jasmine Enberg: So one of the things that she said was that we recognized that we weren't creating the kind of content that would help us show up in those responses. And we also weren't really thinking about how other people might be talking about us on platforms like YouTube and Reddit, which really were, you know, the top sources of information that was being pulled about Oreos and about cookies in general. And that sparked an idea for me because I've also seen a lot of creators start to lean into Reddit for the first time because Reddit, of course, has never really positioned itself as a creator economy platform.

22:26Jasmine Enberg: But, you know, as kind of AI moves in and creators are finding it more important to be on that platform, we might see some shifts in their strategy there. So we will cover that in a future newsletter. Wow. Okay. Well, I understand why people gasp because I think it also shows like these legacy brands, like they can't be sitting pretty. And we've seen it too, right? Pepsi buying Poppy, right? Like Pepsi can't just rely on being Pepsi and having, you know, they have to keep innovating and acquiring. And that goes for social as well, just because, you know, they're a heritage brand and legacy brand.

23:01That doesn't mean that, you know, they can kind of sit pretty. So that's fascinating to hear. That's a great takeaway. All right. Well, we will have more news for you next week, including tech earnings and our takeaways now that we'll have the full results from everyone. And now we're excited to welcome Jenny Quigley-Jones, founder of Digital Voices. We will be talking about, of course, the recent acquisition of PMG, her journey as a founder, and much more. Hi, Jenny. Welcome to Scalable and congratulations. Thank you.

23:31Jasmine Enberg: Congratulations to both of you as well. Exciting 2026. Thank you so much. It definitely is. We are so happy that you're joining us today. We want to jump right into the news. So you started Digital Voices almost a decade ago. You have built it into a successful business on its own. Why did you think that this was the moment to sell to PMG? Thank you for asking. Yeah, it's been nine years. And I think being a solo founder for nine years, especially if you're bootstrapped, which I think, you know, the pains of being bootstrapped founders has its own challenges. We were seeing a lot of consolidation in the industry, which I think is just because influencer and media are coming so much closer together.

24:14But then influencer is also touching so many different parts of the media funnel as well. So it's touching PR, it's touching experiential, it's touching creative strategy out of home. So we wanted to make sure we were positioned so that we could truly integrate with the media changes that were happening. I think you're seeing a lot of the social platforms also put this onus on creator paid ads and creator content being used in media. So it to me makes sense to get to that stage. But also, I mean, being candid as a founder, which seems like it's becoming my brand as being far too direct and candid.

24:52We really wanted to find somewhere where we could elevate what we're doing. And I think take risks, build new tech, work with clients in unexpected ways. And I think we needed a kind of a platform, a partner as a platform to elevate the work we were doing. And having spoken to just, I think over the last two years, we've had bankers and we've spoken to 51 partners in the last six months, potential partners. And so I really wanted to find a place where we could go that was a really strong culture fit, but would also help us elevate tech and media at the same time.

25:26Jasmine Enberg: What was it specifically about PMG that drew you to that company? I mean, what things beyond the culture fit were you looking for and how did you kind of evaluate them as a partner? PMG stood out for a couple of reasons. We'd spoken to them for two years at Cannes and I knew the founder George from that situation. He started his business with less than a thousand dollars, age 26. And I started mine with like$700, age 26. And over the last like 17 years it scaled to this like over a thousand person agency that does work for Nike and Apple and has really challenged I think a lot of the big media agencies and George is still an entrepreneur founder so he doesn't have other investors or backers and I felt like there was such a strong partnership there where it's like two entrepreneurs who respect each other both are bootstrapped understand how each other thinks and are really hungry for growth so I really wanted to make sure that we were going somewhere that was going to push growth rather than you've seen with a lot of the big holdco acquisitions.

26:30There's been a lot of reductions or infighting or multiple agencies doing the same thing acquired by the same holdco. And so you end up stuck in the challenge of integration for years. So I specifically did not want to go anywhere and I did not want to let anyone sign the NDA that had a really strong established influencer business. Because to me, we're on such a fast growth pace that would mean instead of continuing that growth we'd come into an environment where we'd be like oh whose way of doing influencer is better or how do we charge for agency fees do we do guaranteed results or not and that is just going to be politics and boring for years and it's not the journey I wanted so firstly it was this culture fit but this desire for growth then also the tech piece is really useful so PMG has like 250 engineers and they have made like differentiated themselves by building tech that should exist like a lot of tech the e-commerce a lot of tech social listening they've got this platform called Ali so getting the power of that technology to know that you've got someone with this desire to grow and desire to do better where their business is growing like over 20 % a year our business is growing I think about 20-30 % a year and then the tech opportunity felt like we could really elevate the way the industry is run and really improve services for our clients.

27:50And then the third piece that was really interesting to me was the caliber of clients. So we have a, I'd say about 90 % of our clients are these enterprise brands. And I think in influencer marketing, there is so much vending machine agency content, which is where an agency is given an RFP, responds to a brief, they're given budget, They're pushed because of procurement and agency fee to do the better minimum, right? You don't do onboarding calls with creators. You don't do all this extra work of bringing proactive ideas to the brand. You don't have strategists, so you don't integrate into IAT that brands need.

28:27You definitely don't. You service at the most baseline level to protect your profit. And I think enterprise clients don't want that anymore. We're seeing this real rise of AOR influencer agencies who are sending strategists and investing in strategists, investing in measurement and sending those people to IAT meetings and crafting truly social and influence first campaigns. And so there was so much synergy with our clients. And that's what we're building. And that's what PMG loves building. They work specifically with enterprise clients as well. So from a client fit, a culture fit and a tech fit, it just all it was, I think, the perfect partnership there.

29:06Jasmine Enberg: So you brought up, you know, the consolidation that's happening within the influencer marketing landscape and also just in the agency landscape more broadly, right? As well as, you know, the holdcos that are driving a lot of this. Zooming out, what does it say to you that, you know, you have publicists and WPP coming into this space and making big acquisitions? So I think one, it says that these holdcos compete with each other. They, we had someone say during the process, are the other holdcos interested? If so, so are we. Which to me is that knee-jerk infighting approach that I don't think serves anybody.

29:43It's not servicing the best outcome. It's not trying to reach the best outcome. It's about who waves the biggest stick. And that's not how I think the industry should be run. But I think the thing it does show that's an industry trend is that people are realizing culture is created on social and then reverberates into other channels. Whereas previously, culture would be seen as starting on TV. And then it would, those TV memes were seen as making their way into social. So it was, you know, watching Jimmy Fallon, and then that ends up on social. But actually, what we're seeing is there are social trend moments now that end up being featured on TV and in other media.

30:17And I think that's where the hold codes need to reevaluate the way they've been working in the entire structure they've built because they're not built for social first. Their approach at the moment seems to be, let's just buy our way out of this problem. But the way they're buying and integrating often isn't protecting the founders and isn't putting those businesses at the center of their agency structure. So again, it's a short-term solution. I think publicists are probably doing this better than anyone else because they are buying influential and then trying to add on regional support and buying captivates they've got the tech and trying to bring it all together i think the worst thing you can do is to try and buy different agencies have them compete with each other and then the founders choose to leave because they're they're hating the fact they have to fight with other people for the for business they hope they'd won and then you lose the people who are truly thinking social first So I think it says that there's huge demand to get this right and that the entire whole co-structure is not built for talent and creative talent to be in the hands of thousands of creators.

31:27But that's where the shift is happening. And they really need to change to kind of respond to that trend. But they haven't, they still haven't found the solutions. Do you worry that all of this consolidation will squeeze independent agencies? Like, what are the ramifications? I mean, obviously, there's positives to M &A and negatives. So dig into that a little more. My fear with the independent agencies is there is definitely going to be a squeeze. And the squeeze is that brands and doing sales and getting platform funding is going to be harder because you're not closely enough related to the media ecosystem that you're creating additional friction.

32:05so um it's really interesting because social media platforms are trying to prioritize influencer agencies linked with media agencies to give their test budgets to because they know that that money comes back through the ad ecosystem brands are trying to look to integrate influencers more deeply in their media plans so in their paid ads if you're a whaler not to put any specific example there but say you're a whaler you might have a good paid team but you won't have a paid team that can run Unilever's paid globally. So you're kind of getting squeezed because there's an additional layer of friction to you working with the media team.

32:41And then I think also brands are trying to find these economies of scale with influencer and influencer as a percentage fee is much higher because influencer is an expensive channel. So again, you're getting squeezed. You also don't necessarily have the creative kudos or even the office space sometimes to be the lead influencer, the lead agency in an IAT. So you often see influencer agencies are an afterthought in IAT meetings, not the strategic leaders. So I do think there is going to be a squeeze for those agencies that are choosing to remain independent. Some could really double down on the culture piece and the cultural challenger mentality and talk about breaking the system.

33:22and you can do that. But that means you have to always be on the cusp of doing incredible creative work. And I think that's quite hard to sustain. It's also hard to structurally build a moat around being the cool person in business. What can you tell us about the terms of the deal? I know you aren't sharing transaction value, but how does this impact your business operations? You've talked about it a little bit, but what does the sale really help you do that you couldn't have done if you'd remained independent? I think it's, I mean, personally, it provides me a lot of financial security for the team that provides a lot of financial security.

33:51PMG are very famous for talking in the media about how they have never done a round of layoffs. They have always found ways to scale to protect their staff, which is so rare in this ecosystem. So for me, it also gave the team a huge level of stability and kind of opportunities to learn, opportunities to progress in different areas of media and agency world. The other thing is beyond the deal, the CEO of PMG said that he also had a large amount of money earmarked to build influencer tech. So it was not just his money and his stability for your team. It's what can we do that's better? And coming into an ecosystem where someone from day one is asking you, if money was no object, what would you build?

34:35How would you improve efficiency in this industry? What would you use AI for? That is an amazing proposition. And that's where my brain got really excited to see this as a partnership and really take the industry to the next level. So the terms of the deal are really, really interesting in that way. Also, the earn out mechanic is so growth focused as well. So it's not about, we don't have any of these structures where it's competing internally. It's like, right, let's take the business we've got, let's count it all together and let's really, really scale it.

35:07Jasmine Enberg: What are some of the things that you could do as a small shop that you can't do now when you're a part of a bigger organization? I mean, thinking about things like moving fast and being nimble, that becomes so much more challenging as the organization grows. It's really helpful to go to a founder-led business where there's much less red tape. But I would say things like hiring are slightly slower and you have to make a case for hiring certain roles, whereas previously we'd be like, the client said, we need this, let's go. It's still happening, but just slightly slower than previously. The other thing that I find really interesting is asking for permission.

35:42It's strange. It's a weird feeling because you've been the person that everyone goes to to say, hey, can we do this? Yes or no. And suddenly you're in a position where you have to think about it. So the other concern I had being a small agency going to a larger agency was that they set the moral standards you work with. And we've been very clear on the types of brands we don't work with. So no tobacco, no gambling, no weight loss products, just because we know that you can't age gate influencer marketing. So with paid ads, you can make sure no one under the age of 25 sees an alcohol ad but with influencer you can ensure the majority of someone's audience won't but there's always an individual 13 year old that could be inspired to steal mom's credit card and play slot machines online the founder of pmv has very similar moral lines and then an issue came up where we had a client that for me i morally wouldn't be the happiest to work with and the response was just trust your gut like if you don't want to do this don't do it.

36:37So I think it's keeping some semblance of independence at the top, because if you lose that, you lose the culture and then your team stop being inspired and they stop trusting you. So I think when people get acquired, that's probably one of the biggest issues. It's not even the use cases themselves. It's what does not being able to trust in their leadership anymore signify? And then does that mean there's a mass exodus? To zoom out a little bit, to talk about the broader landscape a little more. I mean, one complaint we hear from creators is that, influencer marketing has become too transactional.

37:08There's too much of a focus on metrics, which are already really murky. So what do you think influencer agencies are doing wrong as the industry has exploded and grown so much? Yes, I think there are a few things the industry's done wrong. I think it's removing the human from this. So one of the things that we try to do is onboarding calls with every single creator for every single campaign. And that'll be individual calls in the creator's local language which again is there you have to really invest in the human team who speak a lot of languages to do that i think that comes as a result of agency fee reductions so brands trying to squeeze the agency fees so the influencer team is like right if we have to operate at this scale with this much budget and it's a struggle to be profitable then we'll cut out anything that requires human time investment but honestly in those onboarding calls, that's where we ensure that the creator understands the brief, knows the name of the product, knows what the features and benefits are, has the best creative ideas and is willing to take creative risks.

38:08And if you don't do those calls, you end up paying in time later because the content will need to be reshot or it won't be quite on brand. So I'd say that human piece is missing. The other thing that I've noticed is missing recently a lot from the enterprise clients is they have outsourced all their influencer work so much to agencies that they never meet the creators. There's no one doing like a quarterly dinner for a brand to meet their always-on creators. Agencies, again, aren't even suggesting it, but they should be because brands will pay for it because they want the access. But I think that's where this industry, we're trying to make it like a media buy, which means it's become so divided from the process of these creators, the way they live their lives.

38:52They're actually often at home by themselves, desperate for feedback, and we don't give it to them. So I think creating these moments and investing in these moments where the brand gets to meet the creators and understand how their brains work is going to be hugely beneficial as well. And finally, this is a pet peeve of mine, and I know this is controversial, on the metrics so many creators don't want to sign up for like a tracker or a tool that basically you have to tick a box and say that the brand has the right to access your say your meta account for three months and that they technically can delete posts this it does give the the warning is quite scary so a lot of creators don't want to sign up to these platforms that would just give the brands all the metrics data they need and mean we didn't need to chase for results or screenshots or whatever which we shouldn't be chasing for in this day and age because it exists and is verifiable if you plug into these platforms so one of the things i'm hoping that we can do is do all the human pieces to build trust to then make the creators more open to just understanding if they sign up to a captivate or a creator iq or a tracker or whichever platform we use, they will end up getting earlier access to deals.

40:07It won't diminish the human and it isn't a risk to the security of their accounts. So that I think would also really help because you don't have to have discussions about metrics over and over again.

40:19Jasmine Enberg: So speaking of keeping the humanity in the creator relationship, I mean, AI has also emerged as a threat to the creator economy, also to agencies as people can develop content more quickly and more cheaply. Where do you stand on AI from the agency point of view? I mean, how are you using it internally? What would you say are some of the best use cases for marketers? Is it things like vetting or streamlining workflows? Or, you know, do you have guardrails around how creators use AI in their work? So the way we use AI is to enhance our processes and make them more efficient. So things like writing bios for creators, we have an AI tool that will not just look at all their content online and summarize them, but also say this is where they could be a great fit for, say, DoorDash and why the type of content they could produce.

41:08We've also just got in beta, a brand safety check tool that is, again, using AI, because I think it is actually a huge risk to not have brand safety checks done consistently by AI rather than by individuals who are like Googling and busy and asking on chat GPT if someone's had a a drama, like that's not the way this should be done. I'm doing it in different languages. So each market has different standards. I think that's really, really scary. So we're trying to solve that problem now. We have a tool that auto categorizes comment sentiment. So a human who speaks that local language has to approve and say, yes, the AI has got that right.

41:45That's a positive comment. That's a negative comment. That's a neutral comment. But it's been really so useful to test that and have it work for reporting at scale, because it literally pulls through and we can categorize all the comments really quickly and then we also have a tool called composer that helps us basically pull insights so it will say to us what's a good cpm for a fmcg or cpg brand what's a good cost per engagement for a tech brand and then it tells us based on changing factors and seasonality what views we should guarantee what results we should guarantee for every campaign and then it looks at the data and we'll pull out standout creators standout platforms like if creators use this image in their thumbnail they did better the guardrails piece is fascinating because some it's brand by brand at the moment and that is seems so unstable and short-term this to me but adobe is a client who need creators to use ai to show how their products work that's the whole feature then you've got other clients who say who have in their contracts that we have to stop creators using any ai tools at all in the production of their content it's like how can we verify they're not using Claude for scripts.

42:55There's no way of verifying it. So I think the industry has really not caught up. And then brands that are saying no AI at all and asking us to put that in creator contracts, it feels, again, very short-termist thinking. So I think there's huge space here to approach things in a more considered way. Then is there a space for AI creators and AI content? 100 % yes. Do I think that content will necessarily sell products based on trust? No, but it will raise awareness. And so for some campaigns, it makes complete sense.

43:32Jasmine Enberg: What do you think the solution is? I mean, where do we kind of go from here? Do we need more regulation, standardized guidelines? I mean, what will it take? I think the way we've done filter regulation is really smart. Saying you have to declare if it's a filter, if it's beauty, you can't use these filters. So I think defining what the tools are that are harmful will be really good or defining the tools that are good. Being like you are allowed to use a script writing tool or you are allowed to edit using Adobe Firefly. However, you cannot use AI to misrepresent the product. Things like you can't use AI to animate in the style of Pixar.

44:09That, of course, you shouldn't do because that's infringing. It's not fair use. It's infringing IP rights. So I think there's ways brands can more clearly define what's okay and what isn't, or have a list of appropriate tools and non-appropriate tools. I think also enforcing that creators tick, they're like made with AI, like this video includes AI on TikTok, on YouTube, on Instagram is really important. Because a lot of creators aren't doing it and a lot of brands themselves aren't doing it. I spoke to a brand that was doing all AI ads and did not market once. Is that just a lack of understanding and awareness or do you think it's sinister?

44:45They felt like the future of content was AI. So they actually felt ideologically like they shouldn't have to market because in the future, you should be marking not made with AI. Which again, is not the ecosystem we live in. So is that sinister? Yes, partly. I think it's really interesting with AI and influencers, you can see, I've watched a lot of brands see AI product demonstrations, so AI ad demonstrations. So when it's like producing an image, like an aesthetic image of a bath and candlelight and your product, great, the brands are thrilled. They're very happy to make sure those images match best practices.

45:21They're very happy to consider running them in paid ads. I think the uncanny valley moment that I've seen is when in the same presentation, suddenly the presenter will say, hey, and look, this is what we can do with influencer marketing and AI and shows AI influencers. And that is when I've watched brands get really uncomfortable. There was one presentation where the presenter left the room and the brand said, we're not going to do that, are we? Like, that's too far. Because fundamentally, the powerful thing about creator is the humanity of it and is the parasocial relationship. And we don't like the idea of being lied to.

45:53Jasmine Enberg: One of the things that you said is that there is a place for AI creators and influencers. So I'm wondering, you know, what is that place in your mind, especially considering that, you know, as you've been in conversations with brands, they've gotten uncomfortable with the idea of AI influencers. Yeah, my vision for AI influence is a bit different. It's kind of inspired by the Japanese VTubers trend, where you know you're watching a person who is, there's a person behind it, but they have a voice change, they have sensors on their hands, so they look animated, and they're doing something playful, but you're very aware that it's AI.

46:29And I think there's probably room for the escapism of AI, the like storytelling of AI. So people to follow along like the, I think it's a parody, AI parody, the grandma in pink who's like. Yes, I see her all the time. It's great because people attached her like a character. They don't expect she's a real person. They don't feel like they're being duped. They enjoy the parody and they enjoy the storytelling. and that's where I think there's a space to be super creative, super playful, do some world building, feature brands in that. I loved all the little Michaela stuff when it came out years and years ago.

47:05The fact that there were all these stories about little Michaela's political views and her boyfriend was one of, it's so interesting that you know you're going into storytelling. No one's thinking, oh, this AI is a real person. The thing I'm finding really disappointing with AI at the moment the AI woman at Wimbledon for example I'm like why are we just making it like the grok the grok twitter sarang wrap thing like AI shouldn't be about making women sex objects like can we can we move away from that like we don't need to encourage more people in DMs saying inappropriate things instead let's be really creative with storytelling let's integrate brands and build worlds like you have you have the tools for incredible creativity.

47:50And that's what you use it for. Okay, that's depressing. We do want to talk about your journey as well as a founder and a female founder. You've been sharing a lot of your journey publicly, you know, like starting your business with 500 pounds and unintentionally lowballing your first client. What do you think, you know, now that you've sold your company, you've been on this journey for, almost a decade. What do you think it really takes to build a successful business in the creator economy? I think two things, and they seem contradictory, but they're not. One, you have to be willing, and it's cheesy, it's been oversaid, but grit.

48:25You have to be willing to say the same thing, do the same pitch over and over and over again until it's a reflex. When we first started doing guaranteed results eight years ago for campaigns, no one was doing it in the industry. And we were partly doing it because influence was so scary. that we wanted to give brands a safety net that's like, hey, if the campaign doesn't reach these results, we'll give you some of your money back. Eight years later, we're still saying the same things. And people, brands, even huge brands are still saying, wow, I've never heard of this model before. So sometimes it's just you need to say the same things hundreds of times until you say them in the right room.

49:03And it's never one right room as well. Everyone thinks there's going to be a moment that changes everything for you as a founder, there's going to be a silver bullet, like one client that transformed your life, one campaign. But it's actually like you have to say the same thing so many times in 20 different rooms and you have 20 different silver bullets that might potentially be the thing that makes or breaks your business. And then it's not one comes off and changes your life. It's like seven kind of come off at half the scale they should have done and some get delayed and some work out and some don't.

49:35And then one person introduces you to another friend. And it's that degree of grit where you just keep saying the same thing over and over again and keep, once you find something that works, being willing to hammer it home and not give up and run into the next shiny object. I think so many incredible entrepreneurs in this space get distracted because it's constant innovation, but you need to find your product market fit and then you need to double down on it until it is the most boring thing in the world for you. So I'd say that's one of the reasons we've been so successful is because we've been saying the same thing over and over again for nearly a decade.

50:10And the other thing that seems contradictory is being willing to pivot. So I think if you're not finding that fit, if you're not, if you're testing a model and it isn't working, if you're trying to offer services and it feels like you're three years ahead of your clients, once you find a model that fits commercially, then stick to it and then say it till your voice is hoarse. But at the early stage, all I wanted to do was get to know quicker and I think we're so nervous to fail we're so nervous to feel like we're failing but the best thing someone can do for you is say no I'm not interested rather than saying maybe and tell you why because that feedback means you can pivot and then find the right fit if you don't ever get that feedback you will hang in this space of not being sure of yourself or trying to go down the wrong road for far too long.

51:00And you never make the hard decisions that actually commercially work. So chase, chase the nose and be willing to change. So you've pushed back on the idea of calling your business, your baby. Why? I find it weird that the number of people who ask if my business is my baby, it's like they made it this question of, could you have had a real baby or could you have had a business baby? I'm like, this is such a weird personal question. It's a really gendered question as well that I find very awkward. So firstly, I find the idea that a business should be your baby a weird hormonal thing that they ask women and not male founders.

51:40Secondly, I really think you should run away from any environment where they say a business is like a family. A business should be like a sports team. So this is how Netflix defines it. Because if it's a family, you have all these sense of duty, you feel this desire to please and not let people down. You can't let go of your son. Your business shouldn't be a family. Instead, if it's a sports team, it shifts the accountability and it shifts this sense of duty. It makes it, if you're not the right player that that sports team needs, then that doesn't mean you're a bad athlete. It just means you might not be the right fit at the right time.

52:23And so there are lots of people who have worked at Digital Voices who in certain ways haven't been the right fit for what we needed. We haven't been the right fit for them either. They might be a great goalie, but we've already got a goalie and we only need one. So it's no reflection of their skills. It's just, hey, for the people we need now to build our team to get to the next level. It's not about you personally failing. It's not about you letting down your family or loved ones or anything. It's just, we think you might flourish better somewhere else. And they probably feel the same. So I'm always trying to break this association with workers, defining whether you're good or not, or like the secret shame of the family dynamic.

53:05I don't want that to be in work. I want people to be empowered to do their best job. and that requires this level of like respect of their skill and their intellect. You really lose if it becomes a business, like a business family or a business baby.

53:18Jasmine Enberg: So Kaya and I are both also female founders. And one of the things that we're really cognizant of is how much we lean into the fact that we are two women. There aren't a lot of women who do what we do. So we know that it is important. But at the same time, we also know that we have quite large male audiences and we don't want to alienate them either. So how do you do it? I mean, how do you find the right balance in terms of leaning into the fact that you're a female founder without alienating, say, other audiences? You both do it really well because you talk about substantive content. You get on with the work.

53:54And I think my fear sometimes has always been, I don't want the female part of my narrative or any part of my identity to distract from the substance of the great work we're doing. I think being a female founder, it's always going to have its costs and its benefits. And so it's like, do you focus on the negative or do you focus on the positive side? Like the relationships we have with clients, we have a lot of female clients, which is great because marketing is 78 % women. but they are phenomenal and we have this this supportive dynamic where we have the privilege of really getting to know them really being empathetic with with them and and kind of helping champion their career so our aim is always like to get our clients promoted so I love getting to do that um it also means we can communicate with a lot of empathy but my expectation is that everyone should do that I also think that everyone has a part of their identity that feels like it's holding you back like everyone's like it doesn't matter your your gender you've always got some all founders are kind of broken we've all got some form of chip on our shoulder that's telling us to prove ourselves it's a probably a very psychologically unhealthy job right like you shouldn't give this much of yourself to work you shouldn't decide like that you need to prove yourself to whether it's to yourself or to other people that's like it's a it's a very fundamentally broken part of you that wants to run a business.

55:19And I think everyone who's a founder has that, and everyone also in their own head has that story. So whether you're a straight white man who's been born into a lot of privilege, you still probably have some moment that defines you and feels like a victimhood in your own head. And I think it's important to not invalidate those experiences. I want to champion entrepreneurs who come from underestimated places. And that could be for a whole host of reasons. And I really try to make that accessible. But one of the things that happens when you're a female founder is as you look around these rooms, you realize that there aren't that many people who look like you doing what you do.

55:56To me, getting to the stage where you run a business and the stage where you exit a business, that's where you create transformative intergenerational wealth. And that wealth gives you access to certain rooms and certain power structures. And it lets you define what success looks like for another generation. so to me I want more people who feel that chip on their shoulder who feel some form of compassion for someone when they're going through something hard to be those people in power because hopefully they'll change what leadership looks like for the better whether that's in politics whether that's economics whether that's you know in the business world so yeah I think trying not to alienate people because everyone has that experience that drives them and acknowledging that all entrepreneurs are a little bit broken and trying to trying to build something better hopefully keeps me empathetic and hopefully not alienating too many audiences okay johnny that was a very thoughtful response um now we're going to go into rapid fire um first one what's your biggest win as a founder i think taking a building a c-suite who have never run departments before and always never had that opportunity.

57:03And then watching them succeed, be super accountable and take the business through an exit. That made me so, so, so proud because they're going to lead our industry in the future. What's your biggest mistake as a founder and what did you learn from it? Letting other people determine your self-worth. If you fail at something and you let them, you let that perception of failure stop you from taking action, that's the worst mistake you can make. And I have definitely held myself back because I've been scared to look stupid. What advice would you give us and other founders in the creator economy? Find your niche, find a way to commercialize it and dumb it down so that it's actually commercializable for brands because brands are instinctively want to be really, really safe.

57:42So find your niche, find an approach that works and then monetize that and tell the same story over and over and over again on every stage you can, on every platform you can, in every room you can and build trust that way. Lead with experience. So lead with education. Don't try and hide something. So it's like a secret sauce that doesn't work. People just genuinely want to understand because they are time poor and want to do something exciting, but they just don't understand it. So the more you educate and the more you find that niche and educate on it, the more successful you'll be. Thank you so much.