YouTube’s Other Competitors: Twitch, Disney, Tubi, Spotify and Beyond

0:00Hi, everyone. This is Scalable, a weekly show about the business of the creator economy.

0:04Jasmine Enberg: I'm Kaya Yurieff. And I'm Jasmine Enberg. Every Thursday, we take you beyond the headlines to tell you what's happening, what it means, and why it matters. Players from Disney to Tubi are now encroaching on YouTube's turf. The big question for me, though, is whether Disney is just checking a box for creator content or whether all these moves represent a broader shift in strategy. Twitch and Spotify have even joined forces to take on the streaming giant. in an unexpected way, podcasts. It's very unusual to see two big platforms team up this way. And I think Twitch also just has such a strong reputation as a gaming platform that that's really hard to change.

0:41I do think that there are more people that are getting curious about the service in this moment. And I think in large part, that is a symptom of how we are all experiencing the internet today.

0:51Jasmine Enberg: Livestream is going through a renaissance and Twitch really is at the center of the comeback. But at the same time, live streaming is also now a huge part of YouTube strategy because how can you be the next TV without live programming?

1:09Hi, Jasmine. Hi, Kaya. And hi, everyone. Welcome to Scalable, our weekly show about the business of the creator economy.

1:16Jasmine Enberg: Netflix isn't the only platform that YouTube needs to worry about. Yes, Netflix is YouTube's biggest competitor, but players from Disney to Tubi are now also encroaching on YouTube's turf as it's trying to become the new TV. Some of them, like Twitch and Spotify, have even joined forces to take on the streaming giant. Meanwhile, YouTube has finally started to fight back against Netflix after years of publicly saying it wouldn't pay creators for content again. The platform is reportedly striking exclusive deals with big name creators. It's also reportedly making thinly veiled threats to creators who are considering taking a Netflix deal, which is not the best look.

1:55Jasmine Enberg: No, it definitely isn't. But today we're going to focus mostly on YouTube's other challengers, meaning all of those platforms that are not named Netflix. And we have a lot of questions. Are people going to tune into podcasts on Twitch? Is Disney just checking a box for creator content? And what is going on with Tubi's big creator push? And how many deals can these creators reasonably take? Everyone seems to be double or even triple dipping these days. Later in the show, to better understand what one of these big contenders is up to, we chatted with Twitch's new chief marketing officer, Christine Kassas, who joined Twitch in early August.

2:30Previously, she was at companies including Reddit, Google, and Pinterest. Christine spoke to us about how Twitch is trying to position itself as more than a gaming platform, expanding to new revenue streams, and what challenges she sees ahead. I think there's this misconception often that Twitch is gaming-only content. Yes, of course, it is powering a large part of our daily active viewers. But when we think about people interacting with the creators that they love online, we're not all one dimensional or one note, right? Gamers included.

3:00Jasmine Enberg: Yeah. And as we've talked about before on this podcast, also in our newsletter, live stream is going through a renaissance of sorts and Twitch really is at the center of the comeback. But at the same time, live streaming is also now a huge part of YouTube strategy because how can you be the next TV without live programming? Anyway, let's get into it all. All right. In order to understand how all of these players are competing with YouTube, we need to take a little walk down memory lane and explain how YouTube got to where it is today. Because while it is the biggest streaming platform in the US and in a lot of the rest of the world, it wasn't always that way.

3:33And I'd also argue that a lot of people still don't realize it's the biggest.

3:37Jasmine Enberg: Right. And the big shift really didn't happen until just over the past couple of years. I mean, 2025 was the first time that YouTube captured more TV viewing time than any other TV provider here in the US. And then in June of this year, Nielsen's report, The Gauge, where that data is coming from, also found that YouTube accounted for about 14 % of all US TV watch time, which was ahead of every single TV provider measured. That includes the Walt Disney Company, which accounted for about 9.6 % and came in second place, and Netflix accounted for about 8%. I have to say, though, like I look at these stats, and sometimes they're really hard for me to believe because I will be perfectly honest that I do not watch a lot of YouTube.

4:18Jasmine Enberg: I mean, I'll go there to, you know, watch a TV show or movie trailer and honestly, now to find B-roll for our episode. But that's really about it for me. And I also don't know a lot of women who, you know, watch YouTube regularly. It's mostly men. And there's actually this really funny reel that keeps popping up on my feed about how men always want to show you YouTube like they're the ones who've discovered it and that we as women should take that as their love language. And here's Hannah Berner and Paige DeSorbo talking about this very strange phenomenon. Speaking of bad habits, I hung out with a straight man accidentally.

4:54Jasmine Enberg: Where? Work stuff. Okay. They do this thing where like when they try to connect with you, they keep showing you YouTube videos. And it made me feel like an outdoor cat who brings you a dead pigeon. And you go, and then you go, oh, wait, that's their love language. Oh, they're trying to connect. That's them showing affection. Because he showed me one video. And you know, like you get the point after. Oh my God, that's so funny. Okay. So funny. So I'm also not a big YouTube consumer. I'm going to YouTube with a mission. I'm not ever really just browsing it. I'm usually searching for something specific like an SNL clip or yes, also B-roll for this podcast.

5:36I've also been watching some travel vlogs lately, the summer ahead of some of my travels, but I have to say they've had mixed results for me, but that is a conversation for another time. But see, I travel vlog on TikTok. I love a short form travel review. I honestly think that will be better because sometimes it's like it's just going on and on and it's like get to the point. But anyway, back to the stats. over half of all US viewing time on YouTube now occurs on TV screens rather than mobile devices, meaning that it's moved directly onto premium streamers and traditional TVs turf. And that, of course, is where this intense rivalry between Netflix and YouTube comes in.

6:12Jasmine Enberg: Yeah. And what I find most interesting about YouTube, though, is that it isn't just one thing. Like, yes, over half of the time spent now is happening on TV screens. But according to research, it's really just over half, which means that the other almost 50 % is happening on phones and tablets and laptops. Yeah. And for scalable, we really over index on mobile. And that's probably because our audience is business professionals who are on the go. I mean, they're probably clicking most often on the YouTube link to our podcast that's in our newsletter, which they're reading via email on their phones.

6:43But it proves your point. There's a lot of people who aren't watching YouTube on TV.

6:47Jasmine Enberg: Exactly. My very limited personal use of YouTube only really happens on laptops, which is so very millennial of me. Like it is kind of like when you have to make a big purchase and you just cannot do it on your phone. So you whip out the laptop. I mean, that's how I feel about YouTube. It is too big and too in death to watch on your smartphone. But that's why people are watching on their big TV screen. It's true. But I also don't watch it on my TV screen. I feel like the laptop is the way for me. But anyway, not only are people watching on all different devices, they're also watching a ton of different types of content.

7:19Jasmine Enberg: I mean, there's music videos, there's shorts, there's long form creator shows, there's full length movies, there's podcasts, there's live streams, there's sports. And now you can even watch NBC's Peacock. So the list just goes on. And that really explains why YouTube has so many competitors. It's essentially competing with everybody from TikTok to Twitch to traditional TV. Okay, so let's start with Twitch, which competes with YouTube in live streaming. And now it also may be competing with YouTube in an unexpected way, podcasts. So in August, Twitch teamed up with Spotify to live stream podcasts.

7:52It's starting with sports media company The Ringer's sports gambling focus show Wiseguys. So importantly, the show is not exclusive to Twitch. In a post on X, The Ringer founder Bill Simmons said that the show will also be, quote, obviously available on all other podcast platforms.

8:06Jasmine Enberg: I mean, if it was so obvious, he would not have needed to tweet that. Because if you remember, one of Spotify's other big podcast deals recently was exclusive. So in July, Jay Shetty moved his podcast on purpose off of YouTube, where it had over 5 million subscribers, to Netflix and Spotify in an exclusive deal that was reportedly worth over$100 million over several years. Shetty still has his old episodes up on YouTube. But if you go into his channel now, it just has this really big banner at the top that It says new episodes on Netflix and Spotify. And then he has links to both of those places.

8:38Yeah. And if you think back to just a few years ago, 2020, 2021 timeframe, YouTube and Twitch were intensely battling to sign top live streaming stars exclusively. And during that time, YouTube landed some major streamers like Ludwig and Dr. Lupo and pulled them away from Twitch. So it's not totally unreasonable to think that wise guys would be exclusive to Twitch and Spotify. But when we asked Twitch CEO Dan Clancy about what he learned from that exclusive era, he He had some pretty strong words about it and made it pretty clear that Twitch isn't going to go down that route again. Take a listen.

9:08In the creator space, which is different from the, you know, premium movie space, the content wants distribution. The content doesn't want to be restricted because what you're looking for is audience for your ideas. And as soon as you restrict your distribution platforms, you restrict your audience. Twitch did have this exclusivity with live streaming. People came over and they tried to build their live streaming by recruiting our top creators. we moved away from that. I did not feel like in the end that was healthy for the industry.

9:37Jasmine Enberg: Yeah, in a lot of ways, too. I mean, the Jay Shetty deal was just an anomaly. I mean, it's very unusual to see two big platforms team up this way. As a side note, our understanding is that the deal actually came together more from Jay Shetty's team negotiating directly with Spotify and Netflix separately, not all three of them around the table. But still, this is really unprecedented. And it's even more unusual now to see Spotify doing something similar with another platform, meaning, of course, Twitch. Yeah, and obviously how well podcasts do on Twitch is still an open question. And we'll talk about that in a little bit.

10:10But Wiseguys does feel like a good place for Twitch and Spotify to start. Nearly 70 % of Twitch users are between 18 and 34. So that's a potentially good audience for a show about sports betting. And while it's first in the video podcast space for Twitch. The live streaming service is home to a few ESPN radio broadcasts and a chat show from New York City Mayor Momdani.

10:30Jasmine Enberg: Okay, since you brought up Momdani, I have to go here because I've been in a deep internet rabbit hole about all of this. But there was this big report from the Columbia Journalism Review that just came out about how he has a group chat on Signal called NYC Creator Announcements. It has about 200 members. They're all creators and influencers. It's run by the director of New Media and Cultural Communications, Amelia Rowland. And these influencers reportedly get daily updates, they get talking points, they even get interview invitations through the group chat. Obviously, the right wing media is up in arms about all of this.

11:01Jasmine Enberg: It does raise some questions, especially around things like payment and disclosure. But honestly, my first thought when I read about this was, I want to know how we get in on that group chat. No, I want to know all the things that are happening in there. I want like an inside peek at the strategy. Or how do we get him on the show? I think in general, from the beginning, from his campaign, his strategy has been so interesting, both on social and with creators. And other Democratic candidates could certainly learn a thing or two from him. Yeah. And to be clear, I mean, the team has said that they're not paying the creators who are in that group chat.

11:31Jasmine Enberg: And what they're writing to them honestly doesn't feel that different from the pitches that journalists like you and I are getting. I mean, I think the difference is that these creators and influencers don't have the same kind of journalistic training or standards, and they're not asking the tough questions and then adapting that messaging in the same way that a traditional journalist would. So then it kind of ends up being more marketing than, say, traditional journalism, which I think is the big problem when it comes to, you know, disclosure, for example. Yeah, they're essentially acting as surrogates for the candidate, right?

12:02But it's definitely something to watch in the midterms as candidates are going to ramp up their influencer marketing strategies. And there's just a lot of issues with disclosures, whether it's paid or not. I mean, if you have this direct line a relationship, whether you're getting paid or not, you know, there's a lot of questions there about what should be disclosed or not.

12:19Jasmine Enberg: But back to Twitch, which is the real topic of today, its parent company, Amazon also already has a major podcasting studio and network called Wondery, which produces some high profile sports related podcasts that includes New Heights by Travis and Jason Kelsey, which I got to see live once here in LA and it was so much fun as well as a new talk show from former NBA player Blake Griffin, but that one is actually going to YouTube. And I think that underscores the flip side of all this, which, Kaya, you started to allude to at the top, like, we just don't know how popular podcasts really are going to be on Twitch.

12:51Jasmine Enberg: There is some data, though, that gives us a little bit of insight into how they're doing so far. According to data from analytics site Stream Charts, Twitch's talk shows and podcast category accounts for less than 1 % of all live viewers. So not very much. And clearly, there's a long way for it to go to catch up to YouTube, which we all know has said over a billion people watch podcasts on its platform. Though, of course, we don't really know exactly what that means or how they're measuring it. Totally. And I think Twitch also just has such a strong reputation as a gaming platform that that's really hard to change.

13:25And I think getting people to really start seeing Twitch as then a podcasting platform is definitely an uphill battle for them. We asked Twitch's new CMO Christine a little bit about this and whether we'd see more podcasts come to the platform. Granted, she'd only been at the company for two weeks when we interviewed her, but here's what she said about how she expects Twitch's push into podcasting to play out. And I think it's amazing that Twitch gets to be, you know, continuously in the driver's seat or in partnership with these folks of how these experiences evolve. And I really do think it'll be up to the creators in the communities to sort of define what is that best in class experience for everybody.

14:02And the internet oftentimes rallies around those moments. And that's where you see people start to adopt this behavior, right, of maybe not tuning into the traditional broadcast of something because they know that they want their creator's favorite or their favorite creator's take and want that participation while they're also watching, I don't know, a game or listening to their favorite podcasts and just going a little deeper alongside their reader and even the audience.

14:29Jasmine Enberg: I do think the other thing that could work in Twitch's favor here, though, is that podcasts are still relatively new on YouTube. So podcasts and podcast listeners just don't have the same loyalty to the platform as bread and butter YouTubers do. Like, yes, old habits die hard, but we don't really have old established habits when it comes to video podcasts just yet. And we go back to the stat all the time, but it's just so telling. 70 % of US weekly podcast viewers on YouTube said they would switch platforms from YouTube if a podcast were to become available only on another platform. That's according to October data from Cumulus Media and Signal Hill Insights.

15:09Jasmine Enberg: Totally. But moving on from podcasts, another area that Twitch is starting to compete with YouTube on is live sports. Sports in general is a big focus for the company as it's looking to expand beyond gaming and it's been making a ton of moves in the space. YouTube has also been making a lot of moves into sports. When we talked to Christine about this, she said live events like sports are a natural fit for Twitch because Twitch is already a place where people are sharing and actively participating. Take a listen. Sports in general is a category that I think, you know, the experience that many folks come to Twitch for is this creator cast experience where they're in dialogue with a personality or maybe even just their favorite streamer.

15:44And they're watching together and participating with a community of people that not only follow that creator and interact with that creator, but are also sort of participating in the game maybe. And that really up levels the game day experience. And I feel like especially younger audiences are craving that, right? It's different to turn on your favorite sporting event and get the commentary that's still being broadcast at you. And I think that being able to participate in chat really adds a lot of value versus just this passive noise. And people are craving that more and more.

16:20Jasmine Enberg: So what Christine was referring to there was the CreatorCast, which is a creator-led sports broadcast on Twitch, which is around live games on Prime Video. So far, they have a CreatorCast series for the NBA and the WNBA. And on September 11th, Twitch is also launching a CreatorCast broadcast for the Women's National Soccer League. These CreatorCasts have been pretty popular. They've averaged more than 788 ,000 total views and over 3 million total minutes watched per broadcast. That's according to Twitch. Obviously, one of the reasons that Twitch, as well as basically every other TV and streaming provider, is going after sports right now is because people love it, which means it's really great for advertisers too.

17:03Jasmine Enberg: For Twitch specifically, it also gives them brand-safe content to sell to advertisers who have been skeptical of live streaming because it can be really unpredictable. And that's why, unlike most social platforms, most of Twitch's revenue, around two-thirds, actually comes from subscriptions instead of advertising. And Twitch has already gotten some really top names for these creator casts. So Hyundai is the presenting sponsor of the National Women's Soccer League creator cast series, and Intuit, Credit Karma, and State Farm have both sponsored the WNBA series. Yeah, somewhat surprisingly, State Farm is actually pretty big in the live streaming space.

17:36It's partnered with top live streamer Kai Sanat, and it just launched season five of its branded competition show named Gamerhood, which features iShowSpeed and several other big live streamers. Interestingly, the show is available on both Twitch and YouTube, so State Farm obviously isn't bought into the exclusivity thing either. Neither is iShowSpeed. He's been literally everywhere lately. He also has a massive partnership with Expedia, which we'll talk about in a future episode with Expedia's chief comms officer. And he also has another competition giveaway partnership with Dr. Squatch that was just announced.

18:06And then, of course, he was all over the World Cup with an official partnership with FIFA, where he was live streaming from the matches on Twitch and YouTube.

18:13Jasmine Enberg: I mean, the man does not sleep. And literally, Expedia's chief comms officer told us that he passed out during one of his live streams because he hadn't slept. I mean, it's crazy. Poor guy. I mean, I hope that he got some sleep over Labor Day weekend. But anyway, to bring this back to YouTube versus Twitch, let's put some numbers around where the two platforms stand in terms of users. So according to Streamlabs' latest live streaming report, YouTube Live grew 18 % year over year to almost 13 billion hours watched in the second quarter of this year. YouTube Gaming had another 1.8 billion hours watched.

18:46So for comparison, Twitch has a little bit more than 4 billion hours watched in total. What's so interesting, though, is that Twitch had 200 million hours streamed. YouTube Gaming and Live had 23 million and 42 million respectively. If you're wondering what that difference is, hours streamed measures the amount of content that was created while hours watched measures what was actually consumed.

19:06Jasmine Enberg: I mean, those are massive numbers, no matter how you put it. But what it also shows is that YouTube is actually generating more hours watched with less content on its platform, which really is not good news for Twitch. Another maybe not so great news for Twitch either, but really great news for creators and social commerce overall, YouTube and Amazon, which of course is Twitch's parent company, now have an affiliate commerce partnership. So basically, YouTube creators can tag Amazon products in their videos, in their shorts, in their live streams, and earn commissions that way. It is an enormous move to see two of the world's most powerful platforms teaming up this way.

19:44Jasmine Enberg: It makes a lot of sense, though. I mean, Amazon's social and creator shopping efforts really never took off. I'm laughing even as I say that sentence because I clicked on Amazon's Inspire, its TikTok feed so many times. It was so bad. And just had to click immediately out. I was like, no, I don't want to be here. And then, of course, you know, YouTube gets way better shopping tools and inventory to offer creators without having to build any of its own. It is, though, a little bit weird given how little Twitch is integrated with Amazon's e-commerce and ad platform. Like, yes, Twitch creators are also in Amazon's affiliate program, but it just feels like there is so much more that they could be doing together to boost both of these businesses.

20:25100%. We asked Dan Clancy about this too, but he gave us a pretty vague answer saying that they do have some integrations with Amazon in the ad side and to expect more from the Amazon live shopping side of things as well. But anyway, that's another topic for another time. Moving on to Disney. Disney has been making some pretty big moves into the creator space recently. that could be especially concerning for YouTube, given that the Walt Disney Company, which includes Hulu, is second in TV watch time in the US, ahead of even Netflix, according to data from Nielsen Gage that we shared at the top of the episode.

20:56Jasmine Enberg: Yeah. The big question for me, though, is whether Disney is just checking a box for creator content or whether all these moves represent a broader shift in strategy. Because if it's the former, it really isn't that concerning for YouTube. But if it's the latter, YouTube really should be sweating. But anyway, we're getting ahead of ourselves. Yeah. So let's run through what Disney has been doing. So obviously, Disney's deal with YouTuber Darman is the splashiest. Under the terms of the deal, Darman Studios is going to create an initial 20 episodes of content for kids, teens and families. For context, Dar has nearly 28 million YouTube subscribers and his content, which is primarily in the kids and family genre, gets nearly 300 million views per month across platforms.

21:36That follows a deal with TikTok and Disney, which will bring creator and user generated content featuring Disney characters and stories from TikTok to Disney Plus's short form video feed, Verts. That feed launched in March alongside a bunch of short form video feeds from other premium streamers from Prime Video to Netflix and Paramount Plus. And finally, later this month, Disney is hosting a special event for 350 content creators on the Walt Disney Studios lot, which is a pretty cool venue, I will say. And it's also not too far from Darman's lot in Burbank, California. The event is hosted by creator John Ushai, and it's going to feature top YouTubers from Do Perfect to Adam W.

22:12Talking about everything from their creative process to what they've learned as creators, and they'll also premiere some new videos.

22:18Jasmine Enberg: Yeah, I was really surprised not to see Darman on that list, but it's possible that they just haven't announced all the names yet. Good point. Right? Anyway, all these moves obviously take on YouTube, but in different ways. So the Darman deal is on long form video. Then the TikTok deal, of course, is a YouTube shorts rivalry. And then the live event stuff is really a way for Disney to show that it is supporting creators and the creator economy more broadly. I mean, YouTube does stuff like this all the time. I've gone to so many events that they've hosted for creators, including ones around the Emmys where they're supporting creators who are seeking Emmy nominations, for example.

22:52Yeah, and Disney's also done similar things like the Disney Creators Lab, where a group of creators and influencers who already post about Disney get kind of lessons and courses on how to promote their content on social media. Topics include things like branding, merchandising, creativity, monetization. And then there's all the marketing efforts, including a very cute one where they teamed up with Make-A-Wish and creators like Mr. Beast, Mark Rober, and Dude Perfect to host an event last year.

23:15Jasmine Enberg: Okay, but zero women on that list. That stood out to me. That's pretty bad. That's bad. But either way, all of this said, I am not sure how serious Disney really is when it comes to creator content. And I will preface this by saying that these deals are great for DAR. They're great for John. They're great for every creator who Disney is working with. But the reality is that Disney could just bury the Darman shows on its service the way Roku has with creator content. And plus, how is Disney ever going to really replicate anything like this? I mean, Darman is pretty much the only creator who can do what Disney is asking at scale.

23:49Jasmine Enberg: He has that big production studio in LA, Kaya, like you said. Few others have anything even close to that. And he can make these videos for pretty cheap. And Disney can say that they have creator content. And if it doesn't work out for them, then fine. And then on the short video side of things, I mean, come on. How many people are actually really going to be watching Burt's? To me, this feels more like a marketing move than actually really bringing creator content into its library. Yeah, because ultimately they want to drive people to watch Disney shows and IP and keep them paying for the streaming service and watching.

24:20I mean, they don't I don't think they're trying to get into the business of creating the next TikTok, right? It's also another example of just how that kids family creator content genre just tends to do well both on YouTube and elsewhere. I mean, Miss Rachel and Mark Rober are a case in point. They've dominated the family and kids category on Netflix, according to its most recent data. So working with Dhar Mann on family content just makes a ton of sense for Disney. My big question, though, is where is Dhar Mann going to find the time to do all of these things? I mean, he also has a deal with Fox Entertainment.

24:50He has a big partnership with Samsung TV+. So he's triple dipping here. Luckily, he does have a big team.

24:56Jasmine Enberg: Don't forget, he's also the chief kindness officer for the NFL. But is that still happening? Was that just for the season? It might just be for the season. But I, you know, that lives in my head forever. But also, he's not on screen. So that may give him a little bit more time to work on these different things. But anyway, speaking of double or triple dipping, Darman is not the only one doing this. Alex Cooper has been leading the charge on the dating reality TV shows that are popping up now from creators left and right. There are so many of them. She has Unwell Summer Games that is premiering on YouTube soon.

25:26Jasmine Enberg: And that follows Unwell Winter Games, which was quite popular, though quite controversial. And she also just produced Love Overboard on Hulu, which Disney owns. Of course, that show's second season was just canceled. And I have to say, I think it says less about creator-led content not being a fit for premium TV, which I've seen, you know, some people say online recently, and more about the fact that there are just too many similar shows from the same exact creators right now. Yeah. And there's also just a million dating shows, period, with creators and not with creators. And somehow they keep coming up with new ideas.

26:03Like, I'm like, how many more? Are they really new, though, Kaya? Yes, because, okay, for example, Nick Vile from Bachelor Fame hosted a show because his wife is much younger than him. And it's a show on Netflix where you don't know the person's age. And it's a dating concept. So, like, that's a totally new idea. I don't know how that show did. I will be honest. Like, you and I are not big reality TV people. But it's all just kind of like play. It's hard for me to watch.

26:27Jasmine Enberg: But it's all also just kind of like play is the same concept. Like, that reminds me of married at first sight, right? Like, you haven't seen the person and then you're walking down the aisle. They're always kind of the same concept, but anyway. A hundred percent. And also, speaking of another new dating show with a creator, Hannah Burner from The Giggly Squad, who we mentioned earlier in the episode, is also going to be premiering a new dating show called Making Love on Paramount Plus early next year. Okay, but that one I might want to watch because I love Hannah Burner. I think she's so funny.

26:52Jasmine Enberg: I know, and she's very funny. No, she's very, very funny. There's also Date or Dip, which is a new to-be dating series from creators James Henry and draw Okiki that just premiered in August. And one of the most interesting tidbits about this show was that all six episodes were produced in four days, which is really, really crazy. And then, of course, we have to talk about Earl Meets World, the new reality TV show on Netflix that follows Alex, Earl and her family. So it is not a dating show, but it might as well be considering how much it focuses on her former relationship. And also dating is a big topic in the show in general.

27:25Her her sister Ashton hasn't had a boyfriend in two years. It is a big, big topic. She talks about the rumors with Tom Brady too at one point. She like doesn't though. And that we talked about this in the newsletter, but it was, I enjoyed the show. I watched it and I'm not a big reality TV fan. So that's a lot coming from me that I enjoyed it, but she really didn't give us the goods, right? Like I think a lot of people, largely, I think the sentiment was really positive from a lot of the reels I've been seeing, but she brings up the Tom Brady thing but then we have no details she's so coy about it she doesn't you know they kind of gloss over it and even with the Alex Cooper fallout I mean she talks about it but she doesn't really you know give a thorough breakdown of everything that happened so it still fits with her heavily curated image but her family is very fun to watch one other thing I would add about it is I think the challenge with a show like this is she is posting her life every single day, every single second.

28:20So even the Braxton stuff, it just felt really dated. I mean, they broke up in the end of last year and we're in September, right? So I think that's just a challenge. I mean, when I think about the Kardashians, they share a lot online, but they're not giving you the real, you know, tea on their life day to day. It's very surface level. So it's just a little bit of a different dynamic. So I think that's a tricky thing is these things can feel really dated.

28:42Jasmine Enberg: Totally. The other funny take I saw was, you know, people complaining that this wasn't maybe the real Alex Earle. And I'm like, come on, it's 2026. Don't we shouldn't we know by now that reality TV isn't actually real. But anyway, back to dating shows. They feel like the TV version of horror movies for creators. They're lower lift, they need fewer resources, and they always seem to find an audience except for love overboard, apparently. Such a great point. Okay, before we move on to our interview with Christine from Twitch, we wanted to nod to a few of the other smaller players that are also circling YouTube from the creator standpoint.

29:17Some of them are getting more aggressive about their efforts. One of the most notable is Tubi, which we already started to mention a little bit. So Tubi, which is part of Fox, has been ramping up its partnerships and content with creators. Rich Bloom, who oversees creator programs at Tubi, said that their viewers want to be able to go to one place to see both creator content as well as traditional Hollywood content. So Tubi is now working with hundreds of creators. Here's what he told us at our Scalable Summit earlier this year. We launched our creator program in June of last year. Tubi is a totally free ad-supported platform.

29:48About 95 % of our viewing comes from VOD. Only about 5 % is from Linear Fast, so there's a lot of intent. And we had seen through evidence really like in 2024 of a big demand for creator content from our audience. Our most successful original of all time is a movie called Sideline, which was released in late 2024, starring Noah Beck, who was a big TikTok creator who now has really become a big actor. And I think everyone really took notice of how much he drove his audience. 70 % of Gen Z said they want more original, authentic content. And the number one place they pointed to was creators. And we actually just did this study we do every year where 63 % of viewers said that they want one place where they can go watch creator and traditional Hollywood content.

30:41You know, we're going really deep. We're working with hundreds of creators.

30:45Jasmine Enberg: Then, of course, there's Amazon. Mr. Beast's reality competition show, Beast Games, has been on Prime Video since 2024. At the Dealbook Summit, Mr. Beast actually told Andrew Ross Sorkin a little bit about why he would be doing this show, because even at his massive scale, he has over 500 million subscribers on YouTube. There are audiences, especially older demographics, who just don't know who he is, and the show helps him reach them. And this, of course, to take it back to YouTube, is coming at a time when YouTube is also trying to get to older audiences. So here's what Mr. Beast had to say.

31:18Jasmine Enberg: It's weird because there are like I was at a I don't even remember why I was at the basketball game for some shoot. But someone afterwards like I love Beast games. And I was like, oh, what do you like it more than the YouTube channel? And he's like, you do YouTube. I was like, oh, yeah, I'm a YouTuber. But it was just like and I've had those moments happen a couple of times. So and typically, obviously, it's people that are a little bit older and that's what you see. So streaming content still is good, too, if you want to reach an older demographic. And of all the creators, Mr. Beast has the resources and scale to just create Beast games and self-funded and put it on YouTube.

31:53And I'm sure it would get a ton of views. But I think even at the massive scale of Mr. Beast, he still can take something from traditional entertainment. I think the conversation has been very much like, OK, the traditional entertainment needs creators. But creators also can get a lot out of working with streamers and traditional entertainment, too. So part of it is the legitimacy of it, too. I mean, yes, it's reaching older demographics, like he said. But, you know, Beast Games is now up there while you're browsing with Jack Ryan and Marvelous Mrs. Maisel. And it just kind of puts you in this other category.

32:24So the other thing that's really interesting is they did this crossover episode with Beast Games and Survivor in season two. And it also is another example of kind of how creators can benefit. I mean, it's such an iconic existing competition franchise, right? So it's obviously so iconic. So I think Mr. Beast gets a lot out of that partnership, too. Totally.

32:43Jasmine Enberg: And we talk about this all the time. I mean, even in last week's episode, we spent a lot of time talking about how the film industry and creators have a lot to learn from each other. And I think the same thing just applies to TV. But anyway, there's also then the rise of creator fast channels, which we went deeper on in a newsletter as well as a podcast recently. Notably, many of these fast channel deals have actually been exclusive with creators, meaning that they can't work with other fast providers. It doesn't necessarily mean that they can't have a Netflix deal. And many of them do. Mark Grover, for example, was among the first YouTubers to score a Netflix deal in August of last year.

33:17Jasmine Enberg: And he also has a fast channel. Now it's time for our interview with Christine Cassis, CMO of Twitch. Prior to joining Twitch this past August, Cassis was at Reddit, Google, and Pinterest. We talk to her about what lessons she's learned from those companies, what her biggest priorities are at Twitch, and how she expects to see them through. She also gives her take on why live streaming is having a moment and what Twitch is doing to capitalize on it. We're so excited to have you and congratulations on your new role. Thank you so much. So live streaming is really having a moment right now. I mean, we saw Justin Bieber live streaming his Coachella performance.

33:53Jasmine Enberg: Then we have celebrities like Kid Cudi and politicians like New York City Mayor Mumdani joining Twitch this year. So you have been in the tech and the social industry for a very long time. What drew you to Twitch and why now? I have spent my career just really being obsessed with telling the stories of the communities that power the internet and shape culture, especially online. Previous to this, I was at Pinterest, Reddit, Google, and Shopify. And all of these platforms really power so many interesting experiences that we see throughout our feeds and we experience throughout our culture every single day.

34:30And so I really thought long and hard about how Twitch is so unique and different and ultimately the best destination in this moment for that work. Twitch is unapologetically live. It's raw. It's unfiltered. It's deeply human. and in a world where content consumption online is becoming increasingly passive it just felt like there's such a unique opportunity to tell that story about how real people are coming together and gathering in real and authentic ways in this moment and as you mentioned there's also a large cultural pull to this platform right now right we have of course our core community of gamers that have been powering this experience from day one.

35:13But we're seeing people come online and enter the chat in sports, music, art, entertainment, even politics. And it would be silly for me to ignore this moment and not get in there and help tell this story. What do you think is driving that moment for live streaming? I mean, Twitch started as Justin TV in 2007, right? Like this is nothing new. But what is driving that resurgence now? I think there's a little bit of a misconception that it's having its moment, especially where there's these mainstream folks coming into the fold, but it's always been active. It's always been engaging. I do think that there are more people that are getting curious about the service in this moment.

35:51And I think in large part, that is a symptom of how we are all experiencing the internet today and feeling a little disconnected and a little bit maybe bored with just passively consuming content online and wanting to gather in spaces that feel meaningful and participatory and engage each other in, you know, not just these passive comment sections, which I am guilty of participating in as well and asking for the link or maybe just sharing like a POV, but not really engaging in thoughtful dialogue with people who share my same interest. And so it's probably similar to how people are gravitating towards group chats, right?

36:34And I think that is just a cultural need that a lot of folks are experiencing today when they're online. They don't want to be broadcast to all of the time. They want to be in dialogue with. And I think Twitch is really unique in that way.

36:48Jasmine Enberg: I think there's also this kind of resurgence and appetite for live events. I mean, we're kind of seeing that across the board, whether it's big sporting events or, I mean, I know I was really into the World Cup and the Olympics this year, for example. I think that's playing out really across all these different platforms. You see YouTube and Netflix also leaning really heavily into these live events. How do you remain competitive in this environment where you are seeing so much more attention shift toward live? You mentioned the World Cup. That's a great example. But sports in general is a category that I think, you know, the experience that many folks come to Twitch for is this creator cast experience where they're in dialogue with a personality or maybe even just their favorite streamer.

37:30and they're watching together and participating with a community of people that not only follow that creator and interact with that creator, but are also sort of participating in the game maybe. And that really up levels the game day experience. And I feel like especially younger audiences are craving that, right? It's different to turn on your favorite sporting event and get the commentary that's still being broadcast at you. And I think that being able to participate in chat really adds a lot of value versus just this passive noise. And people are craving that more and more. And I think sports is just like a natural segue into that behavior already.

38:11Yeah, so you just launched the National Women's Soccer League on Prime CreatorCast. So tell us a little bit more about that and kind of, you know, some of these dynamics, right? Not coming at you and how you're choosing the creators you work with and all of that. I'm only on my second week here. But one of the things I've been most encouraged by is just how differently folks around the organization are thinking about bringing more people into the fold, right? Not abandoning the core DNA of what makes up this experience on Twitch, which is largely driven by gamers, but making sure that we're tapping into secondary and even tertiary interests of those same people.

38:48And I think there's this misconception often that Twitch is gaming only content. Yes, of course, it is powering a large part of our daily active viewers. But when we think about people interacting with the creators that they love online, we're not all one dimensional or one note, right? Gamers included. And so I think the teams are being really smart and precise about how they are approaching different segments, different audiences, but also recognizing that we have a lot of really great cultural momentum and work with the existing folks that are on the platform. And we don't need to manufacture that because the community is already powering that in such an organic way.

39:32And I can't really speak to all of the details on how the different selections are coming together since I'm so new here, but it's really important to me that I spend some time learning and listening and getting in there with folks because I do think it's such an amazing opportunity to sort of widen the aperture and invite more people to the party. Yeah, so at our Scalable Summit earlier this year, we had CEO Dan Clancy on stage and he is just always such a crowd favorite. So fun and such a great way to open the day. And, you know, he obviously also talked about kind of the foundation of Twitch being community.

40:06He got some laughs from the audience because he was saying that he's like, I don't think there's a real community on TikTok, which is quite like a controversial statement. And he was like, well, you know, people aren't meeting in the comments and TikTok like I hear all the time that people come up to me and say they've met their partners on Twitch. So obviously such a strong sense of community there. But kind of from a marketing standpoint, I mean, how do you keep that sense of community as you expand into all these other kind of verticals and industries? I mean, you mentioned gaming. I mean, obviously, that is kind of what Twitch has been associated with.

40:36But yeah, what's the balance there? I love that Dan is so fiercely proud of the communities that get cultivated and nurtured on our platform. And I agree. You know, the creators are really powering all of this, right? And the way that our creators on Twitch engage, and not to say that they're not also on all of these other platforms, right? But they're engaging in a totally unique and different way on our platform because they're often going live for longer sessions. I read a stat or someone told me a stat in my recent orientation that the average view time of a session on our platform is something like 72 minutes.

41:13So it's not to say that you can't connect with a creator on all of these other places, but the ways that you're connecting with them are maybe a little bit above the fold, a little bit more in passing, superficial. But if you're logging on and participating or even just sort of passively listening to and watching your favorite creator for an average of 72 minutes, you probably have some thoughts and some things that you could at least emote in the chat, right? I think it's just an interesting and different experience for so many people. And we can go elsewhere for kind of the headline news of the day, both from our favorite creators and from our favorite interests, but we're not necessarily able to engage and digest in that content further.

41:54Jasmine Enberg: So one of the other things that Dan Clancy shared with us on stage at the Scalable Summit was that about, I think it was three quarters of revenue comes from subscriptions. And I know that advertising has become a bigger priority for the company recently. So as you're thinking about expanding into other revenue streams. How are you positioning Twitch to brands, especially those that might be wary of live streaming because, you know, of the potential lack of control? There's also been some brand safety issues historically with live streaming. Well, first I think, you know, creators aren't simply another distribution channels for brands on our platform.

42:30They have really built these lasting and meaningful relationships with their communities and over hundreds of thousands of hours of watch time, right? And so the brands that really win on Twitch are understanding that that relationship is sacred between the creator and their community and their viewers. And they're not trying to take you, kind of rip you out of that. They're trying to find ways to meaningfully participate within those spaces. And so I think for brands, the real kind of value is that you're not coming in to make noise and rip someone out of an experience with, you know, a different topic of the day, you're really trying to figure out a way to engage thoughtfully and be part of that conversation and part of that live viewing experience.

43:18But you know, when we think about the opportunity with brands too, you're right, but it is not controlled. That is the unique value prop of Twitch is that it's live and it's unfiltered and it's raw and it's highly participatory. So you You have people really paying attention and engaged. And our job is to really make sure that the conditions and the tools and the moderation are there to support these experiences in the most engaging and thoughtful and best way for everybody involved.

43:47Jasmine Enberg: So zooming out a little bit, because you sit in this interesting position as well, because Twitch caters to both its users, but also to those brands we were just talking about. So from your perspective, I mean, what is the difference really between marketing to consumers and marketing them to your brand partners. Is there one? Is there a way that you kind of pitch the platform differently? I really think about the opportunity to be about that meaningful discourse and dialogue and making it less of a one-to-many model and, you know, the traditional broadcast model and more of an interactive experience that can create in the same way as it's created, you know, this, this creator loyalty, it can also create brand loyalty when done right.

44:32And I think that there are so many different creative ways that our advertisers and partners are already starting to approach this. And I'm really excited to see how the teams think about making that unique and a value to the communities that we see our creators interacting with every single day. No two communities or creators are alike. And they themselves are going to be that gateway for the most authentic way to engage with their own fan base and their own community, even just their own chat, right? And they get to dictate that. And I think when we let them really harness the kind of creative judgment and the editorial control, it becomes more obvious and clear that they're creating this custom experience that when folks are in the right moment in time all of those pieces can come together but it starts by listening to the creator and knowing that they can sort of dictate what they feel is best the direction that they want to go with their communities and engaging them in those ways so how should brand obviously letting creators kind of take the lead but in general how should brands show up on Twitch, given it's such a different experience?

45:46I mean, would you liken it similar to podcasting and how podcasters are integrating, you know, advertisers or what's really working? Or as you're as you took on this role, like what excited you about that opportunity for brands? Yeah, I'd be remiss if I, you know, were to tell you, like, here is the secret sauce, right? It really starts with recognizing that we have to figure out what makes a community excited and engaged and empowered to participate in these ways. And it really, the same way that brands think about their own customer loyalty, they really have to sort of respect and understand that the creator thinks about their own community with this community loyalty.

46:27And so figuring out the ways to really intercept in a way that is acknowledging the deep lore that often comes with these communities, but can be kind of a mutually beneficial outcome for both the creator and the brand is when we see brands win. And I think that there are a lot of platforms that are really entertaining this opportunity. But what's unique about Twitch is that when we think about creating it, it is that interactive experience, right? We're not ripping people out of a passive kind of scrolling consumption. We are already expecting them to have this built-in behavior on our platform that they are interacting with the dialogue or what they're hearing and saying.

47:08And, you know, I haven't really thought about that necessarily with podcasts in the same way, because my experience is usually not tuning in from a live podcast. But we are seeing an explosion of different podcasters kind of try live as this new medium and format, even across other channels in the ecosystem. Well, now Spotify is bringing some of its podcasts to Twitch. So is that is that something you expect to see more of? Yeah, I mean, I think that's super exciting. I don't know enough about how that's going to go. Of course, I think it's one of those things like getting to watch and participate and getting a front row seat of what's going to happen next with a lot of the partnerships that the team are managing there is really exciting.

47:49And I think it's amazing that Twitch gets to be, you know, continuously in the driver's seat of or in partnership with these folks of how these experiences evolve. And I really do think it'll be up to the creators in the communities to sort of define what is that best in class experience for everybody. And the internet oftentimes rallies around those moments. And that's where you see people start to adopt this behavior, right? Of maybe not tuning into the traditional broadcast of something because they know that they want their creator's favorite or their favorite creator's take and want that participation while they're also watching, I don't know, a game or listening to their favorite podcast.

48:31Jasmine Enberg: I wanted to dig a little bit deeper into your background because like we said at the beginning, of the interview, I mean, you've had so many different roles within this industry, Shopify, Pinterest, just to name a few. Obviously, those are different platforms and different businesses, but are there any sort of lessons or learnings that you've taken from those roles that you can now bring into Twitch in the CMO role? Yeah, I love this question because when I first started talking to Dan about the opportunity for marketing at Twitch, it reminded me so much of the stories that I was really excited to tell in my time at Pinterest and Reddit, in large part because both of those communities had a highly active group of people that sort of defined the early days of what people maybe not on the platform every single day assumed about the users of those platforms.

49:27And well, first of all, I just think that it's such a large perception gap, right? Among all of them with, with Pinterest, it was, oh, it's a platform for women who are in maybe a certain life stage. And so, ooh, that's not for me. Or with Reddit, the inverse of that, it's a platform dominated by male users. And so maybe there's nothing there for me, or it's not for me in general. And now, of course, that's insane to think about. These, these places have been around for so long and And everybody knows that there's a variety of topics and interests and different ways that you can use both of those.

50:01And it reminded me a lot of the opportunity to tell the story of what's happening and who's really on Twitch. Because there's nothing that gets under my skin more in like a very energizing way than having one of those conversations with someone where you get the opportunity to change their view. And it's different than a comeback story. It's more of a, like, let's widen the aperture and recognize that there are whole humans that come to the internet and bring their whole personalities and their whole interest and they show up in different ways. And yes, maybe their sort of knee-jerk reaction is to initially engage in their core interest with us, it's gaming, but that doesn't mean that they're not interested in other topics and other content and other streamers.

50:45And then of course, there's the other audiences that are coming into the mix that are thinking, oh, I, you know, realize now that there are these huge cultural moments that are happening on this platform because the mechanics of how people engage on Twitch are very unique to everywhere else where I could be consuming content online. And so I just, I think there's a ton of parallels around this sort of like misunderstood kind of community demographic that often dictate the early stages of how we interact with maybe a new to us platform. And I love being able to change people's minds about that.

51:21Jasmine Enberg: I also think there's parallels between how sort of Pinterest and Reddit position themselves in the social media landscape. Pinterest has been out there saying that they're anti-social media for quite some time. And then you have Reddit, which isn't, you know, anti-social media, but they've not really leaned into influencers in the same way as other platforms have. Like, obviously, they have their own members that are behaving like influencers in many ways and sometimes more effectively than the big name influencers that are out there. But they haven't made that a core part of their platform the way other social platforms have.

51:53Jasmine Enberg: And then you have Twitch, which is also in a way sort of different, right, than a lot of the other social platforms out there. Does that sort of play a role into how you're thinking about positioning the company? Yeah. You know, I think, I think the typical definition of a social media platform is often how we categorize an app and something like the app store. But when I think about what it is to be social with people online, I'd argue that most of the places that we would say, Oh, this is my favorite social media app or site or platform isn't really that social, right? Like you're going there now and again, experiencing this sort of fragmented discovery that's like an amalgamation of all your interests, but maybe isn't a way that you're deeply connecting with anybody.

52:46and you bring up Pinterest, Reddit, and now Twitch, all of these are organized around interests before it's organized around maybe like clout or building a following for the viewing experience, right? And so what I love about these places is that I actually think they're kind of social adjacent because in the traditional sense, because they aren't just where you're going to get your headline news. There are places that you're going to find your birds of the feather community and then nerd out in the comments or in the chat about the things that really inspire you or really get under your skin and keep you actively engaged.

53:27So as you begin this new role, you know, what are your biggest kind of marketing priorities and kind of the roadmap to get there? Oh, man. Well, my first understanding that it's too much for you. So on day seven, you know, my first priority is to listen and learn. And there's such a deep lore that comes with the community and the creators that exist on Twitch. I would be silly not to just get in there and just drink it all up for as long as I can and as much as I can. I also want to make sure that I'm listening to our internal teams. Like, as you mentioned, they're doing incredible work to push into new spaces and do really interesting things with creators and partners across so many other cultural moments and verticals.

54:13But then from there, I see a couple of key areas that I'm really excited about. So one is continue to protect and champion the core community that powers the site every single day. So our gamers. And then two, close the perception gap that we've talked about today, right? There's a breadth of content and communities that exist on Twitch. And I think it's time that we really sort of buck this notion that it isn't, you know, for me or for someone that maybe isn't identifying with that core gaming group. And then three, I think, strengthen discovery so that more people can more easily find the creators through the product.

54:49And then, of course, through our marketing channels, because we have so many stories to tell that there's a community for you out there once you identify what it is that you love and you want to engage with folks around. I know we have one minute, but I'm going to ask you a big question and you have 60 seconds to answer it up. We have to talk a little bit about AI because social media is already going through such massive changes. is LinkedIn just added an AI slot button, right? But how do you see AI's impact on live streaming? Like, does it impact Twitch in any way? Like, how does, how are you seeing that?

55:20Man, you saved the best for last.

55:24Jasmine Enberg: At least you only have 60 seconds to answer this. Look, AI is impacting everything, whether we like it or not right now, right? And I think we have to acknowledge how the internet works these days. And you're right, there is a volume of content online and large part a symptom of how people are using these AI tools to maybe create more or, and in some ways even interact more. And for me, I think it can be an interesting way to get like the headlines of what's happening on Twitch. But at the end of the day, AI is really a tool and it is never going to be able to replace human connection. And that is what makes Twitch unique and authentic.

56:13And so sure, a lot of our creators and community members are using these as they are as tools, but it is not meant to be a replacement in any sense. And I think it can power some of the ways that people optimize their workflows, but it is absolutely not going to be able to change the way that a creator is connecting with their community, nor should it, right? And I just don't think that AI will ever be able to really understand the nuance or the subject matter expertise that comes with everything you see and hear and participate in when you do log on for those hours on end and get to participate with a community in the chat and watch your favorite streamer.

56:55And so I think people are coming to Twitch in some ways as like an antidote to these other places that they're seeing sort of overrun with, you mentioned this AI slop online, but I also think it's inescapable at the same time, right? That just is the internet in the year of 2026. Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Christine. We so appreciate it. It was great chatting with you both. Thanks so much for tuning into Scalable. We'll see you here again next Thursday.