How Satisfy Built The Most Adored Brand In Running

0:02I'm Eric Fulweiler, and this is Scratch, bringing you marketing lessons from the leading brands and brains, rewriting the rule book from scratch for the world of today. Hey, everyone. My guest today is Daniel Groh. He is the chief brand officer of Satisfy, which is a brand that we've been trying to get on the podcast for a while. They were number 50 on our rival 50 list from October. So I was really excited for this conversation. And it starts in a really interesting place. Daniel is the first guest that did not have an answer to what's your favorite challenger brand almost intentionally. And so we have a conversation right off the bat on why that is that I think you're going to be really interested in.

0:42And if you haven't heard of Satisfye, pause this, go look them up, come back. Fascinating brand in the trail running, running apparel space. Probably the place to start with what I thought was most interesting is just how they even think about what they're doing. They don't think of themselves as a shoe company or an apparel company with customers. They think about how do they build a Satisfye world with a hospitality mindset for their guests. So they don't even use the term. You can see Daniel, the entire interview, never used the word customer once. He always talks about end guests. There's something to that, even if you are not in the fashion and the luxury space.

1:21I also really like how he talks about how they develop new product ideas and marketing campaigns. They talk about it as an incubation model. We talk really throughout the interview about how to understand the cultural relevance around your audience, which obviously you know we've done a lot of research on when it comes to challenger brands, microcultures, Rival 50, all that stuff. And he's got some very specific answers and suggestions around not only how do you understand culture, how do you hire a team that understands culture, but also how do you go about developing ideas that are going to be culturally relevant and make your brand more culturally relevant.

1:57And he also talks about, it was a bit of a curveball question for me, how they approach it when it doesn't work and how they turned a loss into a win. And then lastly, if you visited their site and you know Satisfy, you know these are high-end shoes and apparel. And so it was really interesting to hear Daniel's approach to how they think about commanding that high price point and their approach to that, which even gave me some ideas to take away with how we think about pricing at Rivals. So I think you're really going to enjoy this. I'll leave you to it. My conversation with Daniel Groh of Satisfy Running.

2:30Daniel, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for making the time. How are you? How are things in Paris? Good. Thanks for having me, Eric. Paris is busy. We just kicked off Paris Fashion Week, so a lot of good energy, a lot of good partners on the ground, a lot of new stuff to check out, but really great way to start the week with you. So thanks again. Awesome. So you guys have been on the editorial wishlist for a while and it took the Rival 50 and y 'all getting on it to get you here. But here we are really looking forward to the conversation. and I will say as a bit of a tease for people listening to make sure they continue this is one of the most interesting prep calls I think I've done so I'm really looking forward to getting into the chapters of the conversation that we have today but before we do that so as you know and everybody listening knows the icebreaker question that we ask every guest is to share a challenger brand that they're particularly passionate about but you told us just before we press record that you've been thinking about this since the prep call that we had a couple months ago and actually don't have one.

3:28And so we were like, all right, well, maybe we do it at the end. Maybe you come up with one. But actually what I thought was more interesting, and I love that you were up for it, is to talk about why, why you don't have one. So, you know, what is it about kind of like your world or the way that you approach your work that means that you don't have another challenge or brands that you're passionate about right now? Yeah, I think it's such a good question because I think what does challenger mean for everyone? I think first and foremost, it's quite different. and I think for us at our approach at Satisfy, we're, I don't want to say we're confident in what we're doing, but you know, we're very sure of the world that we're building, kind of the guests that we speak to, that we really just want to focus on who we are as a brand and rather than, I would say, compare ourselves to what other people in the industry are benchmarking themselves against, I think the easiest way to do something quite different is to not look at anything at all and I think, you know, there's this temptation in modern marketing to say, okay, X brand has done this or assigned this athlete, we need to exactly the same you know we've seen that you know with the resurgence of trail right i think like trail was its own thing everyone was really focused on road running and now we're seeing many more brands focus in on what trail actually is and you know we've been doing this for the past 10 years and so rather than us you know jump into the the marathon bandwagon which was something that was you know starting to pick up you know last year and will continue into this year what we said is hey ever since we started satisfied we've been a trail running brand so i think, you know, and we'll talk about this a little bit later, you know, this idea of consistency has really just been something that we've been focused on.

4:54And the best way to really keep us on our sites is really just to focus on what we're doing. And so there are amazing brands out there, you know, don't get me wrong. I think there's so many different brands that are doing what's right in their spaces. But I think for us, focusing on what we do best, which is building the satisfy world, has really led us to really look in what we enjoy in our space. And then obviously look at different categories and say, hey, that's really interesting going on in automotive, or that's really interesting going on in luxury jewelry. How can we bring that into our space?

5:22But to call out one brand to say it's a challenger brand for us would be really difficult for me to do right now. Yeah, I love that. And I do think, you know, at the end of the day, all growth comes from delivering on the needs of the customer, in your case, the guest, which we're going to get into. I thought that was a really interesting perspective and something everybody listening can take. and I think that's how we approach it at Rival like with our own brand and our own business is you know we're we're building a company for CMOs it's research that's content that's strategy that's executional services now technology as well so we just need to spend more time listening to the needs of our customers at the same time of course it's impossible to not be exposed to what's going on in the industry and so we just get really tactical you know we have a competitor slack channel and whenever anybody sees something that a consulting firm or an agency or a martech company is doing, we'll drop it in there.

6:12But it is, I think, kind of similar to you. You know, we're never distracted by it. We're never trying to follow it. It's just more like, oh, that's interesting. But then we get right back to what is it that blue chip CMOs actually need and aren't getting from, you know, the market as it exists today. I agree. I mean, like, I'm so I'm aware of everything. And I think that's very important. Right. I think like me and my teams, you know, the mission is to really be aware of what's going on in culture. Right. And I use the word culture versus category because I think there's so much that can be brought in from other categories and that's really how we approach our brand but it's also knowing that you know when should you dive and double click into certain things but really for us it's about I'm our teams are aware of what's going on in sneaker culture all the way down to obviously you know trail running and of itself but everything in between music what concerts are happening in Paris because all of that really does influence who we are as a brand and I think that's also really what makes us unique right it's understanding that the benchmarking needs to be on culture versus just our category.

7:11I know I'm totally going off script here, but I'd be curious if you're up for it. I think everybody, you know, the research that we did with microcultures, even the Rival 50, a lot of that focuses on relevance. That's what we see challenger brands doing really well. Relevance comes from culture, not just the fashion and the music and the culture of kind of that world, not necessarily mainstream but kind of stereotypical culture let's say but there's also like culture for a b2b buying audience and culture for a technology product and it's the things that are relevant to you around the product or service that you're selling being able to understand culture and not just understand where it is but where it's going and kind of be ahead of the curve and be able to to be cool that's not something that's necessarily easy.

7:56Does it just come down to kind of like hiring people that get it or are there other specific things that you and your team do to make sure that you are tapped into culture and you understand what's going on and where it's going? Marketing can feel lonely at the top unless you're in the right room. That's what Rivalamp is, a global community built for senior marketers and brand leaders. Inside our private WhatsApp group, you'll find unfiltered conversations, sharp insights and bold ideas you won't see on LinkedIn. Straight from some of the brightest minds in marketing. It's exclusive. It's application only.

8:32And it's designed for challenger marketers who want to push boundaries together. Apply now at wearerival.com and join the marketers rewriting the rules. I think what I'm about to say might ruffle some feathers, but it's fine. I always say to my teams, hire for culture first. I really believe that you can teach everything else, all hard skills. You can teach somebody to do an Excel formula. now with chat GPT all of that is just unlocked but you can't teach culture right and I think culture begins with being a consumer of that culture right and I'm so I'm not asking everyone to be an expert in punk rock I'm not asking anyone to be an expert in country music or in high fashion right I think it's just you know being a part of it being genuinely interested and understanding that how we can apply that kind of learning into satisfy and it's very difficult right i think you know if we were just hiring anyone with the hard skills then satisfy wouldn't be the brand it is today right i think it's really about establishing the fact that the baseline of this brand is because it's a collective of people that are genuinely passionate about what subculture urban culture is today and how everyone is adding their own little sauce and flavor into to how we're building this brand and i think you know i always tell this right it's like oh satisfy like how you staying edge of the curve blah blah blah and all that stuff and it's like we're so open to the fact that Satisfye is like a human being.

9:47It's evolving, right? Satisfye from 10 years ago has similarities as to what it is today, but it's not the same brand. Just like how when you were growing up, you might have liked skateboarding, you know, hip hop, but then now you're just listening to hip hop and might have some skate influence, but it's not really picking through. And so I think it's really about understanding that, you know, to build a successful brand, or at least a brand like Satisfye, culture, especially through talent, is the most important thing because they're the spokespeople, right? They're the people that are translating your vision into the activations that we do, the content that we do, all the way down to how we speak to our whole set partners, right?

10:25Everything is a ritual and everything is a ritual that's anchored in who we are as people of Satisfye. Yeah, there's really no shortcuts in order to understand culture. You just need to spend time in culture and or hire people that do. And the other thing I'll draw from what you said, because it's a lot of what we see challenger brands do really well is if the conventional model and mindset for brand is that it is going to be one thing for everybody forever it's going to be static what we see challenger brands do really well that you really talked about is they think it's a feature not a bug for a brand to evolve over time so we call it building a brand operating system right doesn't mean that it changes in a crazy way all the time chaotically it's usually intentional but it does update and upgrade with the world around it, the culture around the audience, the needs of the audience, et cetera.

11:16All right. So, sorry, that was a really interesting rabbit hole, but let's bring it back. So can you give people an overview of Satisfye who might not have heard of you before? Yeah. So Satisfye is a technical program. We're based in Paris. And what we really focus on right now is in the trail running space. Obviously, we evolve, as we just talked about. And really, what we're trying to do over the next five to 10 years is revolutionize the outdoors, right? We We want to revolutionize that through product, right, through storytelling, through our athlete program. And really, our mission is to really flip the category on its head and really change the script and really start writing our own story.

11:51And it's all really starting from a place where you look 10 years ago and everything was very cookie cutter in our category. You know, everything felt the same. The innovation felt the same. and you can really identify. And as what we've built over the last 10 years is really helping to build a space for people can identify and personalize how they react and relate to the sport or to the outdoors in general. And so, you know, we're an option in a sea of options right now. I think you look 10 years ago and in this space of this, I think a lot of people like to call us independent running brands.

12:22We're fewer and far between. And now there's an option for every type of aesthetic. And I think it's great that we're able to help push that forward, help evolve the conversation and just be another great option in this space. And I think that's really what we're trying to continue to do. And understanding that there's not one entry point. I think a lot of brands think that the entry point is through products. How we like to look at that is expanding that. It could be through editorial. It could be through service. It could be through activation. It could be through racing. And that's really that big ecosystem that we're starting to really flesh out at Satisfye.

12:57So I want to start by talking about this concept of the hospitality mindset and model that you have at Satisfied to the point you've mentioned this earlier, you call your customers guests. So let's start there. What does the hospitality mindset model look like? What does it mean to satisfy? Where did it come from? How do you bring it to life? Talk to us about that. Yeah, I think the biggest flip when people join us is that, you know, we instill very early on that we don't speak to customers, speak to guests. I mean, it's really creating this sense of welcome. Right. And I think that really started out from when I first met Brees, our founder at his coffee shop.

13:32And I've always been interested in hospitality. And what I really wanted to do was introduce this kind of concept where you might have the best restaurant in the world. But if you have one bad night at that restaurant, you can completely change what that experience could be. And you might never want to go back. And that's the same with any brand, right? You might have the best product. But then if you have one bad experience across that life cycle, you might never come back. And so really flipping that relationship with a guest and being at the service for that guest was that starting point. And taking a step back and saying, you know, every system or every moment that we create needs to feel welcoming because of our price point.

14:10And so obviously, if you don't know, Satisfye has a premium price point in our space. We are the most expensive or should I say costly brand or one of the most costly brands in our space. And so having a experience that is welcoming, regardless of if you're a customer or not, isn't really what we're trying to build. We're really trying to build that space where regardless of what your relationship was with the brand, if you just discovered us or if you're a lifelong guest, it really feels welcoming. And so having that thought process really unlocks a lot and really allows us to build a system that feels more lifelong versus short term.

14:48I know we're going to talk about price a little bit later on, but can you give people a couple examples of price points just so that they know what we're talking about here? so our our entry level short is about 150 euros sorry for everyone that's listening that's used to dollars but i'm sure you guys can do that conversion um we have a super premium uh marina wool program that we do in japan that nets out at 300 euros we're about to introduce our first down jacket which is at 850 euros and so really it's about bringing in the best material science the best fabrics the best touch and feel but also the best patterns and cuts into a premium product that you feel good in, but also lasts long-term.

15:26And so really what we're trying to hit across that is a product that you can explore with, right? And some of these situations, you need a product that you can rely on. We're about to launch also our new three-layer jacket, which is really designed for kind of alpine exploration. And so it's a 950 euro jacket, YZ at 950 euros. We developed a new three-layer fabric, which is very high waterproofing, but very lightweight. We have the RICO program. So if you get lost in the mountains, touch wood. You're able to be found by search and rescue. So it's all these amazing technological innovations, bells and whistles.

15:59The way we're constructing the fabric is with this heat melting yarn, which is visually beautiful, but technologically a new innovation. And so it's really about building a product that is representative of who we are as a brand, pushing the boundaries, but also is to be able to withstand whatever adventure that you have in front of you. So with this hospitality mindset, you've created what you call kind of the world of Satisfy. What does that look like in terms of the touch points of what you've done, what you're doing? What does the world of Satisfy look like? Yeah. So obviously at the core is the product, right?

16:32It's really the operating system or really where everything starts. And what we'd like to build is a world where you can use that product, right? And so we have monthly runs, which are called LSD, long, slow distance that we do in about 15 cities around the world. where runners, whether they're wearing Satisfire or not, can show up, run for free, have an amazing, you know, hospitality program after. We have some of the best kind of bakeries, restaurants that work with us around this program. We have Aesop as our incense. You know, we have almost it feels like an influencer kind of activation, but dedicated really to our end guest is.

17:06So that's an amazing pillar that, you know, guests can come in and join us on a monthly basis. some of our longer kind of moments really center around ultra racing and so we do a race every year called Coco Donuts 240 miles one of the most gnarliest races in the world you run up into our aid station at mile 100 and almost feels like the mirage in the desert right you can get your gear repaired you can get a massage by massage therapist you can get vegan options and it's really about putting our place or ourselves in the in the place of the guest and saying how can we elevate this experience even more.

17:40And all of those things that I've just talked about are free of charge, right? It's regardless if you're a satisfied customer or not, because it's representative of who we are as a brand. And then, you know, how do we pull that further? We have a publication called Possessed, which is about running, but really allows our brand to really tap into some of the other categories that we're passionate about. We talk about, we talk to skateboarders that have just started running, musicians that are getting into running, or just, you know, anything that we're really passionate about. And so that really allows us that flex muscle to really pull out what Satisfye can be and demonstrate how far we can go.

18:14We have a drink called Flota, which we debuted at this race that I just mentioned, Cocodona, which allows our guests to really take part in more of a, I would say, humoristic side. You know, we did a really fun spot around Flota a couple of years ago, and we're starting to really hash out what that whole Flota brand can be. And so really allowing our guests to take part in our brand outside of the product, knowing that, you know, once again, it has a costly entry kind of price, but then allowing them to really be fans of who we are at Satisfy without having to purchase product is really the goal of that world building exercise.

18:49I'm noticing a lot of it is analog, experiential to show up at races and events, the runs that you organize, even the magazine possessed is a physical magazine. It's a physical magazine, correct. I'd love for you to elaborate on that because that is something that we're seeing kind of at a macro level in the industry. You know, as kind of digital and experiences become easier to produce and typically lower quality, there's kind of a premium and increased value put on the quality of human-to-human and analog experiences. Is that how you think about it? Or how do you think about analog and experiential?

19:23I think we're, as a brand, we're obsessed with analog. I think, you know, even in our content, we shoot on film. It's not a rejection to digital. Obviously, we're a brand that is really trying to make the most out of digital and really help bring Satisfied to its best. But I think the idea around being analog is not creating the sense of exclusivity, but really bringing back almost this idea of access and having to be there. I think now with the Internet, with resale websites, everything can be available. If you miss out on a drop, you can buy it on a resale site for an exorbitant amount of money, but you can still buy it.

19:58Right. But nothing can really recreate that feeling of being there. And it was, you know, if we go back to possessed, we used to have possessed on the website, but we took it off the website, really just focused on the on the print issue, because we felt that in order to properly experience possessed, you need to have it in your hand. look at how beautiful the imagery is play the crossword and so I think it's really about bringing it back to the essence of saying there are certain parts of our brand that we feel can only fully be experienced physically or by purchasing a physical object and really standing by that where you know we believe that there are certain things that people can partake you know we're exploring live streaming for example for some of the activations that we're doing this year you know how people can participate digitally but i think bringing back the love to making the effort to show up somewhere whether it's you know at our runs or at our races and rewarding that is really what the thinking is behind yeah it's interesting what i'm getting from you is something that we see and think about a lot when it comes to challenger brands is it's kind of two things but it's you know i always think the experience of a brand falls to the lowest level that you deliver, right?

21:08So even if you have an incredible experience, nine times out of 10, it's kind of like what you said, if you get a bad dish at a restaurant, that's going to be what you remember and why you don't go back. But if there's nine amazing things that a brand does, but then it shows up in a way that is off brand or not great, then that is the brand in people's minds, as opposed to those nine out of 10. And so one, the consistency, which is what I want to talk about next is certainly there. But then also, you mentioned shooting on film, like you certainly don't have to but it's that idea of you know if you took the satisfy logo off of something that you did could it be brooks or could it be harrier or could it be whoever you consider one of your competitors which is something it's actually a prompt that we use for our own stuff as well if we took the rival logo off of something could it be a mackenzie or could it be a wpp um so i just thought that that was really interesting and wanted to call it out.

21:59Talking about consistency. So it's interesting. I have this question, which I do want to ask you of kind of how do you stay consistent over time and also in a market that's kind of constantly demanding new things. But it's also interesting talking about consistency juxtaposed against the conversation that we had earlier around like the brand OS and how things need to evolve and they need to change. So what does the term consistency mean to you and how does that fit into the overall strategy? Consistency for us is through the lens of concepts. The way we brief our teams is how do you build a concept that can stand the test of time?

22:35And so LSD, many people would think it's a monthly run, but no, it's a concept, right? It's called long, slow distance. There's a format behind it. There's a whole merch series behind it. And the way we build consistency is by starting with strong ideas. Possessed, another great example, utmb off-road supply which is another great example and so for us it's first and foremost starting with a concept and then making sure that the concept is fully fleshed out and lives year after year because the thinking is the concept can evolve right the concept can be refined and just the true basic fact that at these events or at these places right there's so many guests that still haven't had the chance to experience these concepts and we believe that you know in essence they're still very strong.

23:20So why throw them out for the sake of creating something new and air quotes exciting when that concept still is still very fresh? You know, if I took a product, you know, Moth Tech is, you know, one of our best selling products. It's been in the line since the first day of Satisfye, right? And so, you know, in fashion or in general product development, you could have been like, oh, this is, you know, 10 years old. We should throw it out and create something new and fresh, right? If we did that, then, you know, all of our new guests would have never experienced the beauty that is Moth Tech, right?

23:52And every single day when someone discovers Satisfy, they see Moth Tech and it's so new and fresh. And so it's also having that almost kind of humbleness to say, you know, we're a growing brand, we're a challenger brand. There's tens of millions of hundreds of millions of people that still don't know we are. So let's say this idea and make sure that when they see it, it still feels fresh. But then we have a duty as brand builders and people that are evolving brands to make sure that the guests that have been with us for 10 years still see excitement in Moth Tech. And so for the first time in the longest time, we're expanding what Moth Tech can be.

24:28We're introducing new silhouettes, new graphic treatments, applying it to different parts of the brand as well. And so I think for us, it's about believing in the fact that what we're creating is strong enough to live year after year, where I think the temptation for other people is like, oh, that's cool. And throw it and just, you know, do it. And it lands a bit flat. And they're like, OK, we need to do better next year. But also understanding the fact that there's so many people that still have yet to experience what we're building. So let's keep it going for them. And I think the last part is to double down this idea of concept where the hardest part of satisfy is really making sure, you know, that we're revolutionizing the outdoors, as I mentioned, but making sure that still people feel connected to what we're doing.

25:12And so it's really about finding that almost sound mixer-esque effect, right, of finding the perfect mix to make sure that it feels fresh, it feels new, but people can relate to it. Because if it's too far out there, people won't connect. And if it's too flat, people will be like, oh, that feels like what X has done. And so it's really that balancing act that allows us to, you know, get that freshness, but also make it feel that something that people can come back to year after year as well. So I want to talk about the how of how you go about doing this, whether it's product development or marketing, innovation, and activation.

25:51You have this concept of the incubation model. And I think it's really interesting. You mentioned some of the things that you do, the collaborations, the new lines, they can take 18 months. And even the term incubation, you know, at a world where everybody's kind of pushing for more faster and there is value and just kind of how quickly you can move. It sounds like there's almost an intentional, you know, you're very intentional, even if it takes a little bit longer for you to do what you do. So how do you come up with these new ideas? And how do you actually bring them to life with this incubation model?

26:22What does the future of the CMO really look like? Does the role still belong in the C-suite? Or is it about to be replaced by AI? And if you're just a creative, should you be worried about your job? In the future of the CMO documentary presented by Rival, Eric talks with leaders from Mastercard, Shell, Dr. Schall's, and more to unpack what tomorrow's marketing leaders need to know today. Together, they explore the future of the role, what will be expected, and what you need to know to stay relevant as a marketing professional. So what does the future of the CMO actually look like? Watch the full documentary through the link in the show notes.

27:00And now back to the episode. Yeah, I think first and foremost, you know, the importance of incubation for us is so that we show up feeling relevant whenever something new and exciting comes out. I think, you know, bigger brands have this almost, I would say, sickness to be like, oh, this is trendy. Let's pump it out. And then when people call them out for jumping on the bandwagon, they're quite surprised. Right. And I think that's really where incubation comes into play. I think the best way to answer your question is through two examples. first and foremost was you know a process that we did when we launched our digital denim so it's one of our best-selling products it's basically a technical pair of shorts that have vintage denim printed on them and so in order for that product to be credible in our universe there had to be a couple of steps that needed to be done first and foremost we decided that we needed to work with a partner that was credible in the jean space and so we started our partnership with Levi's that, you know, came out a couple of years ago and that allowed us to, you know, build that world and storytelling around denim.