Ocean Bottle’s Secret to Scaling Impact With 2 Billion Plastic Bottles

0:00Sustainability as well. I think there's a lot more to be done within the category on utilizing the most innovative and sustainable materials. like we're still not perfect either so for us it's about continuing to kind of push that that forward so yeah with all of this there's there's a huge amount of investment and a lot of challenges and there's not necessarily an easy path forward but we believe that these things are important to us our dna and you know what it is that we stand for as a brand i'm eric fullweiler and this is scratch bringing you marketing lessons from the leading brands and brains, rewriting the rule book from scratch for the world of today.

0:44Hey everyone, my guest today is Will Pearson from Ocean Bottle, who described himself as the world's most needed reusable water bottle. I'm a big fan of this brand and this business. I'm actually a customer right now. Here's my Ocean Bottle right here. A very authentic and purpose-led brand. They have actually already funded the collection of over a billion plastic bottles from the ocean. Basically, every water bottle that you buy funds additional collection of plastic bottles from the ocean. And it was fascinating to kind of get under the hood with Will now six years in having sold a million water bottles and a team of 40.

1:24We have a big conversation about being a purpose-led brand. And there's some great advice for folks that are either in purpose-oriented or purpose-led businesses or see an opportunity for their brands to become more purpose-led as long as it's authentic. That's of course a big part of his advice. But we also have a really interesting conversation about how you kind of get to the next level. What are those inflection points as you're scaling a challenger brand going from zero to a million bottles sold from zero to 40 people? And then also what's actually going to come next and some of his perspective around what's going on within the industry around green washing green hushing really interesting conversation really great brand would definitely recommend that you check it out and i really hope you enjoy my conversation with will pearson of ocean bottle well thanks so much for making the time hey harry great to be on the show where are you calling in from i know you've been traveling a lot there's a lot going on in the world of ocean bottle these days but where do we find you today yeah luckily on a bit of event hiatus things have quieted down a little bit um so my share in the countryside yeah and the cotswolds i think it's the furthest point from the ocean in the uk which is kind of crazy but being and living here um but yeah hoping to to get a bit closer sometime soon that's awesome pretty ironic uh so well we've had a few chats we got introduced through um a mutual connection A few months ago, big fan of what you're doing with the brand and business and a customer here as well.

2:55For those who are listening, I just held up my pretty sweet one liter. I like the size. I always struggle to find big American-sized water bottles over here. And you obviously came to one of our CMO founder roundtable dinners, so have gotten to know a little bit about you and the business and the brand, and I'm really excited to share that with our audience today. Before we get into the conversation, there's an icebreaker question that we ask every guest which is can you tell us about a challenger brand you're particularly passionate about right now and why i mean it's it's always a tough one because there's just there's too many good ones to choose from my eric um but i'm gonna go with i'm gonna go with freaks of nature i don't know if you've heard of them they're a us brand um they make reef safe sunscreen uh from sort of bio-based materials they just have a wicked sort of product positioning and brand positioning and they're doing, I think they're doing sustainability in a really cool way.

3:52They've co-founded the company with Kelly Slater, the world champion surfer, and it's just an awesome brand doing awesome things. Love it. We'll have to check them out and potentially get them on the podcast as well. All right. So for people who may not have heard of Ocean Bottle yet, can you give us an overview of the business right now? yeah for sure so at ocean bottle we believe that each of our products should be a vehicle for impact um and yeah we really design our products so this is the ocean model right here uh to do much more than just hold water uh for every product that we sell we fund collection equivalent to a thousand plastic bottles and weight which is 25 pounds of plastic if you're in the states 11.4 kilos of plastic if you're elsewhere in europe um and yeah we do that by investing in in plastic collection projects all around the world.

4:43We have projects that we support in India, Indonesia, the Philippines, Kenya, Egypt, Brazil, soon to launch in Guatemala. And yeah, for us, it's really about enabling individuals to kind of be part of making a global impact. And I'm pleased to say that today we've collected over 20 million kilos of plastic, which is equivalent to 2 billion plastic bottles in weight. Amazing. so obviously purpose is at the core of who you are as an individual but also who ocean bottle is as a business and a brand and of course now having done i think a little over a hundred many of them as you can imagine have been with challenger brands that are very purpose-driven and purpose-oriented and it's kind of interesting to kind of see in our little bubble of the marketing world how conversations around purpose-led brands have evolved over the last let's say, five years, right?

5:37And I'm always curious to ask and understand, and I know our audience would be as well, you know, that balance, and obviously I'm overgeneralizing between purpose and profit, because sometimes they are not directly aligned. But I know some of how you've thought about your business and your brand, it actually does align how you make money to how you can do good in the world. So if you think about that balance of purpose and profit, both for Ocean Model and other marketers who are listening and considering this as part of their own business what advice would you share about how to approach that kind of dichotomy sometimes yeah and well firstly congrats on a hundred episodes um and yeah i mean you know this is this is a question we get asked a lot um you know how we balance this um you know from the beginning and throughout our journey so we we really kind of embedded the purpose element right at the core at the beginning we wanted to make the impact non-negotiable for our customers so they can select the level of plastic they wanted to fund the collection of so it kind of became like a an entry ticket to get the product and it meant that there wasn't really a choice around it this has been tough at times I mean the cost of collection is effectively equivalent to the cost of making the product itself and you know when you try to compete in a quite a crowded category you have to be able to deliver a price that's you know close to the competition so it's made it challenging at times but it's something we've stuck true to and i think ultimately it's helped us attract you know much better talent um amazing brand partnerships and collaborations and i mean it's really the core of the community and why people get our products in the first place who would you consider your main competition like i go back was it like seven or eight years ago with kind of the chilies water bottle that I think in terms of like the metal kind of something that looked different I remember people talking about that you've obviously got Stanley you've got Yeti who actually was going to be on the podcast this week but had to reschedule the September how do you think about kind of the competitive landscape for water bottles yeah I mean you know the water bottle category itself is is a bit like the footwear category now right there's a million types of sneakers to choose between and I do think we see ourselves as slightly different to the category and kind of slightly outside of the category.

7:58You know, our long-term ambition and dream is to really build the Patagonia for the ocean. And so for us, we're all about, you know, having products that do good and give back and go beyond. So really, we're for those customers who care a bit more. We call them the Change Collective. And, you know, we're for those people who want a bit more than just a water bottle. I mean, these products are now an extension of people's beliefs, their values. So we really see it as an essential accessory that people carry around and, you know, that says something about them. Do you think much about the competitive set?

8:36Not really, no. Yeah. Yeah, we don't spend much time thinking about the competition. Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking based on how you answered that question. And it's so interesting, you know, of course, each interview on its own. But of course, at this point, kind of pattern recognition and what are the trends and things like that. And we've done some kind of content around the key takeaways. But one of the things that I think is really unique about this podcast and what I get a chance to do is kind of the contrast between talking to so many founders or CMOs of challenger brands versus CMOs of big incumbent brands.

9:10And I do think that that is one of the big differences is, you know, I'm not sure I can think of a single founder at a challenger brand at the stage that you're at that probably wouldn't have the same answer where it's like, no, you know, of course they're out there and like, you know, we're aware and people talk to us about them. But like, really, we're just focused on the customer and what their needs are, how we can fulfill them. I thought that was going to be your answer. And I thought it was just kind of interesting to call out and highlight to the audience if that's the case. cool well hopefully yeah we're not we're not completely on the wrong track then it doesn't seem like it with how the business has grown um so when it comes to being a purpose-led brand do you think about kind of principles around this uh practices that you try to keep like i guess what i'm getting at is i would imagine and again this is the case with a lot of kind of still founder-led challenger brands it just kind of it is what it is like it is who you are.

10:07You don't necessarily need to codify it. But of course, the purpose of doing interviews like this is to try to extract the learnings and share them with people so that they can hopefully apply them within their own business. So are there kind of principles or practices about being an effective and successful purpose-led brand that you can share? Yeah. So I think, I mean, you know, every company is different and everyone, you know, there's no fixed recipe to this, I think, and people have their different approaches. But I always like to talk about what's worked for us and how you can reapply that in different contexts.

10:41We do meet some early stage founders who've been partially inspired by what we're doing. And that's amazing to me is kind of how we can continue to inspire more companies like this. So I think for us, number one, it's getting clear on the challenge that you're trying to fix. you know ideally in this in this uh future world um yeah we envisage a world where um businesses that don't do good for people on planet will become obsolete um and so you know going out there tackling a global challenge with your community is a great way of ensuring that you're doing that so that for me is number one and then from there it's really making sure that everything that you do and everything that you say kind of ladders back to that challenge and what you're trying to do in the world.

11:32And that can be kind of quite a loose thread or quite a tight thread, I think, back to that. Marketing can feel lonely at the top unless you're in the right room. That's what Rivalamp is, a global community built for senior marketers and brand leaders. Inside our private WhatsApp group, you'll find unfiltered conversations, sharp insights and and bold ideas you won't see on LinkedIn. Straight from some of the brightest minds in marketing. It's exclusive. It's application only. And it's designed for challenger marketers who want to push boundaries together. Apply now at wearerival.com and join the marketers rewriting the rules.

12:10So you mentioned that you've had a couple conversations with similar businesses or even founders that you've inspired. And I know that you're doing something around building a community or a coalition of leading B Corp brands. of course we as Rival are a B Corp brand but it was interesting in our prep call kind of talking about what B Corp means and maybe the next evolution of that or kind of what does it mean to be a leading B Corp brand because I feel like it has been very widely distributed let's say at this point so what are you doing around B Corp and other brands that are similarly committed to being purpose-led in the way that you are yeah well you know basically you've kind of nailed it But there's some amazing companies, brand solutions out there who are really sort of shifting the dial and doing incredible things.

13:00So with B +, which is an initiative that we're launching, the ambition really is to kind of unite the world's most ambitious brands and solutions on climate and nature. and the goal is really then to bring them together with the leaders of the world's largest companies as we believe that through collaboration between those two groups and kind of creating a bridge there between two groups that really don't talk very much we can both raise ambition but we can also help accelerate action and so I think you know B Corp is an incredible movement we're a B Corp as well. But there are now these companies who are kind of raising the bar even further in terms of being a net positive business.

13:44And that's kind of what B plus is all about is like showcasing those extreme and amazing examples. So one, if there's anybody listening that is interested in B plus and what you're doing, would love for you to share kind of where they can find out more, but to more broadly before we move into the next chapter of the conversation and talk a little bit about how marketing has changed over the six years at Oceanbottle, what would kind of be your final advice to marketers listening, particularly those who, you know, maybe some of them luckily find themselves in a business like yours, where it's still very much founder led, it's still very much purpose kind of at the core of who they are.

14:19But, you know, let's be honest, many of them kind of might be at businesses where, as the marketer, you kind of have to help nudge or pull the executive team or people internally in that direction. So what advice would you have around kind of how to help, I guess, evolve businesses to be more purpose-led if they're not that already? Yeah, cool. It's a great question. And just to your point on B plus as well, you know, if you're interested in getting involved or if you want to nominate a founder from an incredible company that you know of, please drop me a DM on LinkedIn. And yeah, to this question, is something that, you know, we've definitely thought about is sort of, how do you retrofit purpose within a business and do that authentically?

15:03It's quite a difficult challenge. And so I think it's really, you know, there isn't much good in kind of just slapping your newfound purpose on top. I think you have to really do an exercise where you go back to the DNA of the company and kind of build out your sustainability strategy from there. So it really aligns with, you know, what it is you're about, what it is you're doing and who you're for. So an example would be, you know, Nike. How would they go about it? Well, they're all about just doing it. You know, it could be about kind of putting one foot in front of the other, leading with progress over perfection and kind of leading with action.

15:43And I think it's through those finding those red threads and kind of linking it back to what you're about that you can, you know, do that authentically. um because that is that is ultimately important yeah yeah we have a saying that's um you know brand strategy whether it's kind of purpose-oriented or not is more of an exercise in excavation versus construction it's not coming in and kind of building something new it's actually trying to get to the core of who you are um so yeah well we just had a yeah we had a brand refresh exercise recently it's taken us i think gosh probably about nine months to get through and the majority of it was kind of a holding up mirror to ourselves and looking at you know who we are and what we're trying to do.

16:25Sometimes it feels like group therapy doesn't it? Yeah it does. I'm curious what was kind of the impetus for deciding that you needed to do that and I this probably actually a good segue into the next part of the conversation of kind of like what changes as you grow as a challenger brand in the marketing front but maybe let's start there like what happened where you were like or somebody else told you hey we need to look at repositioning brand refresh yeah so i mean ever since the beginning of starting the company um i've been very very passionate about building brand um and really just yeah it's fundamentally the cool thing that you can do right in terms of longevity as a business uh and ensuring that we're kind of here for generations to come um and also we're we're a product that you know is is premium it commands a premium price point because of the cost of impact and the cost of making the product so it's important that we can build brand just through that that you know lens alone and so I think you know we've been kind of cracking along scaling growing building you know going through all the various challenges of the startup roller coaster and I think we just realized that our brand had become a little bit Frankenstein we kind of added a few limbs here and there and there wasn't that kind of consistency and clarity and and kind of creative excellence across the brand that we needed to to come back to so yeah that really made the case uh for doing that and it was such a fun process and like we're now rolling out across different touch points and channels love it can't wait to see um okay so early stage marketing versus current stage marketing so it's been six years at ocean bottle and you've gone from zero to maybe you can give us a couple kind of stats or explain the size that you're at now.

18:17I know you gave out a couple about kind of like the impact on bottles collected and things like that, but team size, revenue, customers, I don't know, something to kind of give people a sense of where you're at. And then let's get into what are the biggest things that have changed on the marketing roadmap in that time? Cool. Well, a lot has changed. I'll start right there. You know, I think to begin with, marketing is is is quite tough in my eyes because it is magic and science it is kind of objective and subjective at the same time and so there isn't always a straightforward answer uh you know especially with you know the creative elements to and so we we actually set out as a direct consumer brand because that was our ambition we wanted these customer relationships we wanted to build this this incredible consumer brand and impact community and i think we quite quickly realized that the economics on that would be really really tough um and so we we kind of pivoted um and then we ultimately really scaled through partnerships so you know finding amazing partners uh where we could kind of bring our products and our mission to their audience and do that in a tailored and bespoke way.

19:29I mean, the products themselves are kind of, you know, they're on in-hand advertising billboard and they're fully customizable. So it kind of allows us to work with loads of different brands. So we've collaborated with the North Face, where we launched across all of their stores across Europe, through to loads of other exciting collabs. And that has really helped scale us and it's ultimately allowed us also to kind of reinvest in that consumer brand and that long-term ambition as a company. Amazing. And what does marketing look like now? Like, is there a team? How big is the team? You mentioned you're working with a partner on the brand strategy and positioning.

20:06What is kind of the partner landscape look like? What's the landscape for marketing right now in terms of resources and team? Yeah, well, we're pretty lean and mean, I would say. We've got an amazing head of marketing at Millie, some incredible people on the team uh we've got a head of grove donny um and yeah we kind of you know we split into that those two articles like any kind of modern um brand probably would um and yeah we've probably got a team of i think we're about six people within marketing um on the whole we're about 40 uh and yeah we're expecting to do about a million bottles uh this year amazing yeah like so really getting to the next level yeah that's impressive congrats um one of the things i thought was interesting is that your go-to-market has included a b2b channel as well can you tell us a little bit more about that and also how that came about how you identified that as an opportunity well so yeah we did it we did a kind of classic launch try we did a crowdfund product launch onto indiegogo kickstarter which is probably the most one of the most stressful things that you can do as a founder because like you're putting all of your eggs in that basket as a launch moment and I think we said to ourselves you know if we can't sell 5 ,000 bottles which is basically like the minimum order to kick off uh production we were just gonna you know wrap up the whole thing and uh yeah we we hit that we hit that threshold um but it was through that launch that we actually had a few inbound inquiries from different brands and companies so one was we had uh Ed Sheeran's tour so we actually did bottles for his music tour the bottles almost didn't make it like we were sending out the products from the warehouse at the time it was a nightmare uh yeah sent sent products to the wrong clients i mean it was just crazy and then but we also had a we had a danish bank who got in touch and they said they wanted 500 bottles for all of their kind of clients and an internal team and they actually paid for the products a year before we even shipped and delivered them so like we literally had a 3d render of the product and they were happy to pay for them up front because they really believed in the mission and what we were doing and at that point we probably should have realized this would be a really you know solid growth channel for us to scale the mission and what we're doing yeah pretty great from a cash flow perspective too definitely um the question is not in the brief and so if you don't have a good answer don't want to get into it it's totally fine and we can clip all this out but i'm curious thinking back on the last six years are there things that you would do differently knowing where you are now on the marketing front like things you would have done sooner or later things you would have not done at all things that you think you should have done any kind of like reflective learnings or lessons that you can share?

23:05You know, marketing is one of those places where we've probably learned the most. You know, learning about our audience, learning about our products, our brand positioning, just so much learning and failure. And I think back to some of the fun stunts that we did as well. Like we did one around environmental confessions because our belief actually as a brand is around progress, not perfection. And the fact that not all of our customers, let alone the team, are perfect. So yeah, let's embrace that. Let's kind of talk about our failures and move forward. Through to an activation that we did at a festival, which was probably the most fun activation that we've ever done.

23:48But it was also probably the worst return on investment activation we've ever done as well. Still would do it because it was epic. But yeah, I think, you know, some of the biggest things we've learned were we kind of shaped the marketing team around direct to consumer. I think it would have been great for us to make sure that we had more capability within our B2B marketing and kind of still doing it through a consumer lens. Because at the end of the day, a decision maker at a company or a brand is still an individual. So I think I wish that we'd probably invested in that a little bit more early on.

24:24and I wish that we just continued to really invest in community, you know, especially in kind of brand development and video as well, I think would have been great because we're now kind of tiny bit on the back foot there. And yeah, we need to accelerate that. Great. That's awesome. Appreciate it. So when we talk about the next stage, so 40 people, six years in, a million bottles, obviously you want to continue to build and grow this thing what are some of the things that are most important to getting ocean bottle to the next level and how do you think about you know you have a very kind of focused promise and and product at this point is that something that you think that needs to widen or how else are you thinking about what needs to change if you want to go from a million bottles to 10 million bottles or whatever the ambition is i think for for a little while um we probably thought that we needed to widen it uh and actually if you widen too far too you know too far too fast you end up kind of diluting and you know doing everything averagely so i think there is a real impetus in and kind of staying focused on on your core and you look at brands like nike and patagonia your patagonia were doing climbing equipment for 30 years before they kind of you know broaden broaden beyond that so i think there is a case for us to you know really focus on that hydration experience not just bottles but kind of that hydration experience ultimately everyone drinks water you're made up of almost 80 water and everyone now needs a reasonable bottle so we think that there's lots of headroom still within the category, you know, to expand, especially as kind of conscious consumerism grows and people want more than just a water bottle.

26:18So you've taken a very focused approach to differentiating on the product side, not just on the brand side, right? Because it would have been easy to just kind of take a water bottle, take a Chili's like water bottle and just say that it's purpose-led and talk about, you know, collecting the plastic bottles and everything that the brand is all about. But there's true differentiation in the way that you've developed the product as well. Can you talk us through that? Yeah. So we knew right at the start, we kind of had a debate, like, does the world need another water bottle? Probably not. But then actually, if we're going to really succeed in our mission, we need a product that is the top of the category, if not beyond.

26:58So we made a conscious decision to really invest in product innovation. It's something that we still really you know get behind and still do and for us that that is you know three things one is aesthetics like we really lean into aesthetics I think it's important that we have products that people love and want to bring with them every single day like we really obsess over like the usage of our products two is functionality so we try and kind of go beyond and and push the envelope on functionality we have nine different ways to save the ocean we've got you know different products you've got the big one i've got the og original um which is fine for uk summer maybe not for myself um and yeah and then the you know finally sustainability as well i think um there's a lot more to be done within the category on um utilizing the most innovative and sustainable materials like we're still not perfect either so for us it's about continuing to kind of push that forward.

27:57So yeah, with all of this, there's a huge amount of investment and a lot of challenges. And there's not necessarily an easy path forward. But we believe that these things are important to us, our DNA and what it is that we stand for as a brand. What does the future of the CMO really look like? Does the role still belong in the C-suite? Or is it about to be replaced by AI? And if you're just a creative, should you be worried about your job? In the future of the CMO documentary presented by Rival, Eric talks with leaders from MasterCard, Shell, Dr. Schall's, and more to unpack what tomorrow's marketing leaders need to know today.

28:37Together, they explore the future of the role, what will be expected, and what you need to know to stay relevant as a marketing professional. So what does the future of the CMO actually look like? Watch the full documentary through the link in the show notes. And now back to the episode. I'd love to understand a little bit more about how innovation happens at Oceanbottle. You know, I've talked to a lot of founders and CMOs who are, I come up with ideas or somebody comes up with ideas and then we just go do them. I've talked to a lot of founders and CMOs who are, we are constantly talking to customers, looking at the data, and we draw insights from there.

29:16Some that are like, we have a monthly meeting where everybody brings ideas and then we test them and figure out what we want to do. and as you can imagine, everything in between. What is kind of the process or the culture around innovation at Oceanbottle, both for the product development that you've done, but also for how the brand and the marketing is evolving? Yeah, I mean, our product innovation or just like general innovation strategy is, you know, I could say probably a little bit scattergun. And it honestly varies from time to time. I think if someone has a great idea or an initiative that they want to test and push forward we generally make space and allow for that as long as like you know the core stuff can can happen uh and so we have we have used the framework called core and explore so 80 is kind of core and then you allow for that 20 of time on on explore um but yeah it ideas can come at the craziest moments like you might be based with a particular challenge and you know you come up with a solution there and then or it's like we've got stuff in the the ideas bank and uh you know we rolled out those out over time cool um yeah the core i haven't heard that explicitly corn explore but one of the ones that comes up a lot is like the 70 2010 framework and actually it's interesting we did uh an episode a little while back of kind of the key lessons from i forget how many episodes it was at that point and also the previous podcast that i did in the fintech space.

30:45And actually the biggest one that I took out of is that almost everybody I talked to had some type of framework for innovation. Core Explorer, 70-20-10, weekly meeting. But there was some specific and intentional way that the founders and CMOs that I've talked to make sure that innovation is a priority and has kind of consistent time and investment put towards it. because it's one of those things that's never going to be urgent, but it really is like constant innovation to deliver on customers' needs is ultimately how any business is going to grow. Totally, totally. So, Will, before I let you go, you up for a lightning round?

31:28I'm up for a lightning round, let's do it. All right. First, if your brand was a pizza, what type of pizza would it be? You know, I was thinking about this. I like a lot of different types of pizzas on a personal level, but I think if Ocean Bottle was a pizza it would be a classic margarita you know one of those pizzas which kind of emphasizes that the simple ways are often the best but made with kind of like the best ingredients so the Italian buffalo mozzarella the fresh tomatoes and basil you know a bit of hand-stretched sourdough, a drizzle of olive oil. And yeah, it's kind of just that proving that the less is more.

32:12But it's also like it's just one pizza, right? So we're focused on one challenge. We do it in one way. And we just serve margarita every day. Going deep there. I love it. But there's no seafood on it? No, like anchovies or something? We're protecting the ocean. No seafood allowed. Fair enough. All right. Next, what is the best marketing campaign that you've seen recently? So I'm going to pick two if I'm allowed, if you'll grant me permission. So one is Dashwater. They did a really cool stunty campaign, kind of taking the mick with Coca-Cola. And yeah, they put a kind of dash can over a Coke can.

32:57And they were like, you know, find a drink you can feel good about. um you know really kind of like hammering home the ingredients and and that this the soft drink is actually good for you versus you know the competition um so i thought that was really cool i thought it was quite bold it was on like a huge billboard i think in london i liked it um and then the other one which was a bit more of a digital um viral stunt that i'm sure a lot of people in the marketing world have seen probably everyone was the rest in peace duo stunt uh where they where duolingo you know killed off their main character and then kind of community love and support was sort of pouring in um with obituaries and and all sorts of stuff how are they going to revive uh duo and i just thought it's quite a fun thing you know they've created this kind of digital um animation that's like the core of their product and then they just killed it off um so quite i quite like that one yeah that was a great one they're crushing it all right next what is your biggest pet peeve in marketing so my biggest pet peeve um i'm afraid to say it's got to be sustainability related and i think for me it's it's where brands you know choose to activate on earth day world ocean day and then there's just radio silence in between um yeah i think green washing and green hushing are both challenges so green washing is a huge challenge in terms of brands making claims that they can't substantiate green hushing is equal to challenge you know brands no longer talking about it and kind of shying away from it and so um yeah i believe with sustainability you know you have to find that authentic thing that's true to your DNA and then consistently sharpen the space and kind of lead with action.

34:50I think if you lead with action, then you can talk about what you're doing rather than the other way around. What advice would you give to your younger self? So I used to kind of associate my own myself with the company. Like I couldn't really distinguish between like my own identity and the company basically. And so actually learning to kind of delineate between, you know, what happens to the company and who I am as a person, um, has been really powerful because it means you can look more critically at things. Um, you know, you're, you're not so like broken and beaten down when something bad happens.

35:28Um, and I think the way in which I've been able to do that, I took a sabbatical, which was amazing and gave me a lot of perspective, but then it also just trying to stay fit and active and meditate when I can. and lastly what's the biggest missed opportunity in marketing right now um well i think we've seen you know a huge kind of not necessarily backlash on on sort of paid and performance marketing but i think people are really understanding that they need to invest in future demand um and they can't just like hard sell their products uh the whole time so it is that kind of far i can't remember who did the quote but it's sort of a farming quote you know you can't just keep harvesting the same field you need to sow those seeds for the future so I think that's that's the biggest missed opportunity and I think we're going to see more and more brands adopt that approach totally agree all right well it's been a great conversation big fan of you all and a very happy customer and advocate of what you're doing so thank you so much for coming on the show Eric thanks so much for having me on it's been awesome Talk soon.

36:34Chat soon.

37:02You