Everyone Said No. She Built A Brand That Sold 20 Years Later.

27:28I remember speaking to Tom Daly in Davos, which pumped into him randomly on the street. and I said to him, do you know my product? He says, every sports person knows your product. Really? That's amazing. And actually, even funnier than that, David Beckham also bumped into him in Davos and I said to him, oh, I hear your wife likes our product. And he said, we all like your product in the house. I love that. I offered to send him some, but he said, it's okay, I can buy it. You're like, no, I'll hand deliver it. Yeah, exactly, exactly. To Holland Park. Oh my God. And was there any point in the journey, like the 20-year journey, where you actually thought this might not work?

28:10Alex Chisnall:Was it, you know, like those supermarkets pulling some shady moves? I mean, there were, yeah, that was a really particularly tough one. There was a moment a little bit earlier on in our journey where the prices, so, you know, eggs is a commodity and bird flu and things like that. So there was a time where the prices shot sky high and it takes a while to get the price increase through with the supermarkets. and we were at one stage delivering product into supermarkets for less than what we were buying it for. So there was a time where we could have just run out of money, but then luckily we had our manufacturer who I mentioned.

28:47We obviously asked for support and they would support us and we kind of got through it. And getting the products actually in a place where people could buy them,

29:01Alex Chisnall:it's a common question get from people watching the show and you know food and drink is like the biggest when I was at Virgin Startup like the more business applications we had for food and drink was bigger than any other sector as well what advice would you give to somebody you know looking to get into a Selfridges or a Harvey Nicks or somewhere like that to actually you know instead of you know hiding behind a laptop and sending an email and then go oh well nobody listens to me you know So what's your kind of attitude? I mean, yeah, you've definitely got to persevere. You can't send one email and think your job's done.

29:36You won't get anywhere. I mean, I think Selfridges and places like Whole Foods, I think they're a really good starting ground because it's quite hard to break into the multiples. So if you have some traction elsewhere and you can demonstrate that, then you can take that to the bigger retailers.

29:53Alex Chisnall:Yeah, yeah. So perseverance. And perseverance, absolutely. and, you know, sending samples and turning up and, yeah. And at what stage of the journey did you feel this is taking off now? You know, this is not just a small business anymore. This could be the vehicle that gets me, you know, realises all my dreams. Well, you know, yeah, I mean, after, I mean, I actually need to look back at the numbers, but, you know, we had very steady growth from zero to year seven, just like continual growth. And even though, you know, we'd initially get into Sainsbury's, but we'd get into 60 stores. And then, you know, a few years later, it would be like 300 stores.

30:36So, you know, after a few years, we literally had all the major multiples. And then, yeah. And recently, I think, you know, recently, our most recent big customer was or is Lidl. Okay. So that's been really good. Yeah.

30:58Alex Chisnall:And what has the scaling journey taught you, not just about business, but maybe about yourself as well? Oh, God, I don't know. I mean, sometimes I feel like, oh, I can do hard things, you know, I can solve problems. Sometimes I still make mistakes. And I think, God, so stupid. Of course, but we all do, right? Yeah. But it's often better to make a decision to make no decision right and just stick with it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, there's obviously they say this thing about being an entrepreneur and starting a business rather than growing it. But I think our business is still kind of that size and model that is still still kind of feels like a startup, even though we've been going a long time.

31:45Alex Chisnall:A lot of people say that to me, though, interestingly, even though the business is valued in, you know, like, you know, millions and millions of pounds they still feel that start and quite often i think people like to kind of maintain that culture of being a startup right not being not being a corporate yeah and sometimes i mean sometimes i think you know this is hard i need this or that and then just pull up your socks and just do it you've done it you can do it yeah you know yes you have to do different things you know you've got to manage more people or you've got to hire more people uh whereas in the beginning you would try to do everything yourself but then of course you know after a while um i want to be doing the more important things rather than having to kind of you know be in the weeds but sometimes you've got to do all you know you do i was having that conversation with someone yesterday though i said when you are in the weeds though it it's tough isn't it because you can kind of wake up and not want to actually go to work that day but you know you've you've got to do it and pull your socks up and kind of crack on with it.

32:45Yeah, yeah. But I think this is the point where you really do have to really take the time to hire the right people so then you can continue to grow it. Because, yeah, if you're just... I mean, my to-do list is unmanageable and it's just unbearable. But, yeah, I've got to get through it. And just implement AI, which I'm trying very, very hard these days. Just learn as much about it as possible, building agents, just, you know, really optimizing Claude.

33:09Alex Chisnall:Yeah, that's the advice. I don't know if advice you give to your children, because you said like 7 and 17, but I'm like, learn everything you can be about AI. Because those who are learning about it now versus those who don't, those who don't are just going to get left behind, right? And those who implement it are the ones who are going to be, you know, controlling the future growth of businesses and culture and society, right? Whereas otherwise, pshh. 100%. And, you know, obviously my 17-year-old, he is learning, he's with me like, you know, most weeks and we're working together. my seven-year-old um she does decoding lessons online but yesterday i was um doing this fun thing with chat gpt like claude is my go-to yeah but i was cheating on claude last night with chat yeah um creating this funny image and it was really cool actually so i said to my daughter let's do one like this for you she's like okay so i think you've got to get kids involved yeah find a way to do it the earlier the better you know yeah it's it's crazy isn't it because we you're like putting the agenda together for our event in um november you're like six months away and then you're like for the stage that's you know got four stages and the stage that's um you know funding you're like okay that's pretty straightforward these are all the types of funding then you look at the topics for ai and you're like but the things we're talking about now yeah could not be the things we're talking about and then we could have done all those things nobody wants the solution anymore you're like yeah maybe we need to leave that a little bit more you know, vague.

34:40Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, and I think, you know, again, this is what I've heard and, you know, I understand. There's no point almost doing AI courses. You've just got to start working with it. Of course, like I've been having calls and meetings with experts who are showing me what's relevant now. But I think with AI, you've just got to get on doing, yeah, I think, yeah.

35:00Alex Chisnall:Yeah, okay, it's a good conversation. So what parts of your business have you managed to leverage AI with? And then interestingly as well, like maybe personally, what do you kind of use? Well, you know what? Obviously personally, I've been using it, you know, for a while now. And now it's, you know, like everything, everything I do kind of goes through AI. But with the business, so what I'm trying to do, what I've done it kind of, I had some, you know, amazing help and advice to build agents for the marketing agency. So I've literally built them and I've got all the plugins now. So, yeah, I think, you know, and things like SEO and I'm still like kind of just about to play with it.

35:42You know, I've just kind of been putting it in place. But I think it can do amazing things and much more cost effectively than an agency would, you know, and much more efficiently. So that, yeah, I think it's efficiencies. And I haven't started doing it yet either. But, you know, like just replying to emails, you know, every couple of hours going through emails, drafting replies. that I want to, that's my aim for this weekend. I mean, the one thing I hate passionately is AI slop. And, you know, everyone wants to... Like LinkedIn. Yeah, like LinkedIn. Every LinkedIn post. Yeah, and it's like, but why?

36:19Just don't share it. And like, you know, successful, intelligent people, and I'm reading it, and there's just some certain phrases I just can't stand, like, this stayed with me, or this hit hard. This hit hard. Classic. I saw it yesterday, and I'm just like... And it was someone I didn't think would be writing posts like that. And I was like, you should have picked up on that.

36:39Alex Chisnall:But my advice is to always, like, with my girls and that as well, is that when you're using it, still go and then reread it and personalize it, right? Leverage the technology to write the structure, especially if you're doing stuff like, you know, pitches or job applications. Give me, like, massive help, right? But you've got to personalize it. Yeah. I mean, it's great for me, like, for things like, you know, we're launching new products into selected stores. Say it's going into 250 Tesco stores. So I just put in the whole spreadsheet into Claw. They'll just map it for me. And then I want to know where I can promote it.

37:12And it will, you know, say I pick some sort of activity. Like, I'm not allowed to promote with Parkrun, which I've learned, fine. But I was like, looking, which Parkruns are near Tesco stores? You know, so it's just so clever, these types of things. But I think that the problem is, you know, everyone wants to have a voice now on Instagram or LinkedIn, and I want to as well. But the problem is there's too many people writing, and I don't have enough time to read anyone's post. So, you know, what's going to happen? You know, everyone's putting out this content, and then robots are going to be reading it.

37:44And then, you know, what are we going to be doing? We're just going to be playing golf. Yeah, exactly. Well, that's fine.

37:50Alex Chisnall:No, it's an interesting thought, actually, that, isn't it? But, I mean, when you look at the numbers, and it's the same with podcasting, and it's that thing of being a creator rather than just being a consumer of content, right? So create it, put it out there and then don't go into a doom scroll and start reading everybody else's stuff, right? Yeah. But it's like when you look at the numbers and I can't remember, for LinkedIn it's crazy, it's something like 1 % of people who have a LinkedIn account actually create content. Oh, really? 99 % are consuming it. Oh my goodness. It's nuts. Oh wow, I had no idea.

38:24Alex Chisnall:And podcasting as an example. So most people think, Everybody has a podcast now. The market's saturated. But when you look at the numbers, like in the last 30 days, right? So if you looked on Apple or you looked on Spotify, Apple would say there's like 4 million podcasts. If you looked on Spotify, there's like 5 million or whatever. But if you looked in the last 30 days, out of all of those millions of podcasts, which podcast actually created a new piece of content, it's like 300 odd thousands. Oh, really? Wow, it's a tiny. It just shows you, for me, that everybody might have wanted a podcast, but like with starting a business, people give up.

39:02People give up, of course.

39:03Alex Chisnall:It's like joining a gym, right? The six-week thing that people sign up for a year and quit after six weeks. And it's the same with podcasts. I think it's the same with LinkedIn, Instagram. But you're right. Everybody wants to have a voice. Everybody wants to be heard. And I think AI is great for amplifying that, but not necessarily for creating that. yeah no no not creating i mean yeah like you said definitely good to help and you know there's things you can do i mean every time i open my instagram i'm bombarded with well either high rocks or claude props golf yeah um yeah my when you talk about like digital agents that's my friend's pit my friend pierce linney's been on the show many times he's a former dragon's den investor his business now is called implement ai and it's implementing those digital agents yeah You can kind of see it when you talk to him and the difference in costs of having that.

39:57But it's not getting rid of all of those jobs

40:03Alex Chisnall:and nobody has a job, but it's learning how to implement the AI to grow the business quicker. Exactly. And I think for something like a marketing tool, of course you'll still need a person, you'll still need a marketing manager to oversee it. Exactly. To make sure it hasn't hallucinated or, you know. Well, you have to check that it's right as well. I did some simple tests on my podcast, and it was getting the numbers all wrong to how many episodes have been done. It was getting that wrong with stuff I know, stuff I don't know. Yeah, exactly. How can I rely on that? No, exactly, yeah. So, going from scaling to where you've been in the last couple of years, and particularly what happened last year, one, maybe, first of all, tell me, you're talking about new product development.

40:47Alex Chisnall:Tell me a little bit about that, and then tell me a little bit about selling majority stake in the company as well and how that kind of came about because people are always interested to know that stuff. Yeah, yeah. Well, maybe I'll tell you about the sale first. Okay. So when we were at the business plan, we thought we would be retired on a desert island in five years. And here we are like 20 years in, you know, still doing it. Two chicks have become, I don't know, two hens or something. But anyway, so, you know, it had always been a kind of an ambition of ours. And then, yeah, the time came and, you know, it's Eurova, also a company we've worked with for many years.

41:30They're one of our manufacturers, one of the kind of two major ones. The suppliers and we have a good relationship with them. And so, you know, we'll do it, we'll go for it. Of course, negotiating is tough. And, you know, it's our baby and, you know, we value it one way and other people value it different ways. So it was tough. It was really tough, to be honest. Not only that, but even like doing the due diligence and the amount of level of detail, you know, that is needed. And, you know, of course, we have help and we have our back office operation, you know, doing a lot of it. But it was still just a lot and a really stressful time.

42:06Yeah, but it's, you know, it's been now a year and it's great. All's, you know, we're carrying on as is. so that's good do you have like a certain amount of time

42:18Alex Chisnall:that you like both of you have gone we don't want to be working in like for example another five years on this business or is it something that you feel this is our baby our chick can never see the day that we're not working on the business well you know we agreed three years yeah we agreed three years but the way it's going now I feel you know I'm enjoying it So who knows what will happen in two years' time. But we'll see. A part of me will never want to leave. You know, so we'll see what happens, yeah. And was there, like I always remember, I was going to quote this example, but Richard Reid from Innocent and him saying like, literally from the first couple of years in, people were making offers to buy the business.

43:00Alex Chisnall:And in the end, the noise became so deafening when Coca-Cola came in with like half a billion offer. It was like, yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. As most people would. But for you, was there interest along the journey? Were you actively kind of like looking to sell a majority stake? There has been interest along the journey. We have had meetings and, you know, kind of discussions with various companies. But then the offer just wasn't right. Yeah. And actually, it was funny. I remember there's one company. They were like, we were kind of offended by the offer, insulted. And they were so, they couldn't believe that we didn't accept their offer.

43:39and it was like so far apart yeah so far apart what are you talking about so yeah oh my god um and at the time did it feel emotional did it feel strange and the emotions now obviously it's working very well for you feel confident and positive no you know what it was really really stressful um what was my kind of overriding emotion i can't remember what it was i don't know i was just really stressed i just really kind of wanted to get away. But I think for me, it's good to have some sort of security because as I mentioned to you, when we had this big competitor's coming to the marketplace, you know, it could be like a domino effect.

44:16You could do everything. So I have a little bit of security, which is good. And also, you know, I'm 44 now. I still have time and energy to do something else and kind of the ambition and the desire as well. Yeah. So I can, you know, you kind of weigh these things up and so I thought, you know, it's fine. I'll let a little bit go. I keep a bit. Yeah, no, I think that's the best way yeah um what else interests you outside of like teaching well you know i'm obviously doing future female entrepreneur i'm just so passionate about that and i just love it and um you know this year's um international women's day thing was giving to gain and i've spoken quite a few panels about it and honestly running it for a few years given me so much it's like opened up doors for me that i never would have thought like you know i did economics even at school um for a levels i did university.

45:04I've always learned about places like Davos and I've always wanted to go but there was no way I was going there to talk about Egwai but suddenly I'm speaking at events like Davos. Amazing. You know so yeah so I really love this and what I really really am very passionate about is gender equality having looked into the topic it's like people are just not aware of the inequalities and certainly not aware of the benefits that we would have if we had gender equality so I really want to do more work on that when the time permits. Yes it's interesting and i always find this that when um people start talking about a particular topic they like light up and i can see like your your energy just goes right up talking about that so so clearly that's uh like a north star that you can yeah you can follow yeah solve the gender

45:49Alex Chisnall:equality yeah and who else have you um kind of managed as you say you know when you start you don't have a network like i didn't and then fast forward like this podcast began nine years and the network's crazy now, right? And then we start this event company and you have like a Celine Fox who was former International Trade Secretary. So you're like, then that network's even more crazy. What kind of people have you managed to kind of bring in like female entrepreneurs to like work with you? Well, you know, as I mentioned to you, like, so we have this incredible company that's hosting us. And again, it's like friends making introductions.

46:24But because we do, you know, we are doing something good and we have a good offering. They, you know, they're really willing to help. and then you know we've had amazing women you know like Vivian Wong of Little Moons I've got so many like even when we first started I'm hoping to get her on the show so that's really interesting you mentioned her name yeah but like you know Melissa Odebash Annabella Chan Sarah Chapman Pauline Patterson I mean I'm going to feel bad if I forget Miss someone out Yeah I miss someone out but I'm really grateful and then and then now I think well you know the confidence piece you asked me about actually now I do feel so like, you know, for instance, I've spoken at an event at Mishkondorea and I just said to them, you know, love your space.

47:06Would you mind hosting us kind of thing? And, you know, if you don't ask, you don't get. But, yeah. And I think people are looking at me and, you know, when we do this FFE events, people are like, come, they want to take a picture with me. And I'm like, really? You want a picture with me? So that's nice. That's lovely. I love it. I love it. last few questions is there a belief that's held you back is it confidence

47:35Alex Chisnall:for example I don't think it's a belief maybe it's a behaviour behaviour yeah self-sabotage yeah lack of self-confidence and self-sabotage yeah yeah I think yeah sometimes and having kind of experienced that what advice would you have for somebody who's kind of going through that just um yeah like we said just pull your socks up just get on with it and just you know be confident be positive just be your best self i mean i think it's all we can do right yeah yeah we can but the thing is sometimes we're not you know sometimes we just want to have a break or i don't know have a few drinks and um but if you if you can be your best self and you start the day well i love my miracle morning routine for instance um you know meditate don't get stressed yeah there is things we know we can do and then but sometimes we don't follow through with them well in my experience anyway no no no you're right you're right no you're absolutely right um and for someone listening who knows kind of deep down they need to to make a change and maybe that change is um it could be starting the business it could be um starting a relationship it could be all these things that they they are have anxiety about or are scared of they don't have the confidence of what's what's your advice to to them to go back you know i just woke up with this thought a couple of weeks ago and i think you know i was a bit hungover and a bit annoyed with myself and i suddenly jumped jumped out of bed at like 5 a.m with the thought that i'll never have this time again and i don't know whether it's because i'm approaching my 45th birthday but i just thought i will never have this time again so just make the most of it and again i'm thinking about you know making a post about it but i don't want to sound like i've had some sort of terminal diagnosis which i haven't touched wood but uh but yeah it's just it's just that thought you know to be your best self and you know be stronger than your excuses yeah like that be stronger than your excuses yeah i think just make the post yeah thank you thank you no no i will yeah you have and it's different stages of life like right again i you know our kids are similar ages and i like say to them, like, in hindsight, you'll never have more time than you realize you've got now.

49:48Alex Chisnall:You feel like, you know, life is so busy because you've got exams at school and you've got a busy social life and stuff. But when I kind of look back and, like, those years, before responsibility kicking and you have a mortgage, you have kids, you have a relationship and stuff, it's like, wow, I didn't realize how much time I had and what did I kind of do with it. Even if it's just doing one thing, it's that thing of doing something 10 minutes a day, right, and before you know it in a year you've got a thousand hours whether that's ai or something you're like you're an expert yeah exactly yeah then i do this try this with my kids as well my daughter who you know you know i'll make a junior park run every sunday and it's so hard and i said listen if you can do hard things you can do anything yeah so i think you know and even me realizing now and actually when i had this thought we'll never have this time again i came downstairs my daughter was downstairs i started crying telling her about it and i thought you know what Okay, maybe I should have realized this earlier, but you're seven.

50:41I'm going to instill this in you and you're going to be amazing. Yeah, I love that.

50:45Alex Chisnall:I'm actually going to, when you talk about Junior Park Run, I remember taking my daughters there and my youngest daughter, who is here today as a little recording, so I'm going to give her a shout out. When she did it, I said, how was that? And she went, that was the worst experience of my life. I thought that was hilarious. But she's gone on to dancing and horse riding for many years and that teaches different disciplines, right? You know, and falling off, literally, you know, literally falling off the horse and getting back on again, not just metaphorically, of course, you know. Exactly. But also, you know, when I was growing up in, you know, St.

51:19Petersburg, I played tennis every single day. And I just really, like, now when I have my own kids, I realise how much effort it must have gone, how much effort it must have been for them to get me and my brother to tennis training every day. So whether it was my mum, my dad or my grandmother, you know. But the thing is, I can play tennis, I can play golf. and I think I've got to obviously do this for my kids as well. You know, and I have done, you know, they've skied since the age of three. So I think as parents, we are obviously responsible for giving our kids and even though they might not want to do it now, of course, anyone will choose to stay on the sofa and watch the screen or whatever.

51:53But you've got to, you know, encourage them and they will realize it at some stage.

51:58Alex Chisnall:Yeah, no, and I think skiing again is a life skill. Yeah. My too, it's their favorite thing. It's my favorite thing as well. So we just, I don't know if it's maybe now, like, yeah, first week in April, went to Chamonix this year, which we've been to before, and just love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just being, and again, you're not looking at your phone all day. No. You're out in the mountains. The sun is shining. You're getting all that fresh air. The sun is shining. Yeah, yeah. Honestly, it's the best. The first week of April, we were in Zermatt, and honestly, it was just the best. And the two of them, you know, my son, obviously, he's 17, but he hadn't skied for a few years.

52:32And my daughter, she's been skiing regularly. I mean, the birth skis since the age of three, but for some reason... Yeah, but anyway, so she just... We were... Her and I went there in February anyway, and she's a great skier. She can do all the blacks since the age of five. But to keep up with her brother, she literally doubled her speed, and I could barely keep up with them. And we were out from nine till five. Oh, honestly, I've never felt happier. Same, same. It's the best, isn't it? And that feeling, you kind of look around, you see them coming down the black road behind you, just like, yes, you got it.

53:01Well, mine are in front, and I'm just like... They're in front now, yeah, yeah. overtaking you to finish up I really enjoyed chatting to you by the way it's a really good conversation and I know after nearly 750 episodes now in nine years the audience is going to love hearing the story as well quick fire round just to finish so whatever comes into your head there's no right or wrong answer right as in business for you what is an entrepreneur now

53:29Alex Chisnall:what kind of defines an entrepreneur you know for me it's just a problem solver because every time there's some sort of issue i'm like right let's start a business it's just solving problems love it perfect um and given that you've you know you've been on this journey what is a scale-up business what's the difference between just growing growing and you know with good profits and yeah um interesting one for you this one so a song that reflects your journey and does that song take you back to a particular time of life you know what this is really a tricky one for me i'm sorry i haven't thought about it but i love music and you know i love different like i love bon jovi and i love garage yeah which is you know when i was 18 years old it was all the hype um but i don't really relate work to uh sorry songs to work but i think something like you know something like beyonce's who run the world yeah that kind of thing that kind of thing would be a bit of an anthem for me i guess we could put that on the playlist yeah that's good yeah okay um and then And again, yeah, having been on Screw It, Just Do It and shared your Screw It, Just Do It story, is there anyone that you think would be a good guest for this show that you'd recommend?

54:40Alex Chisnall:And again, you can come back to me on this one, but anyone that pops in that you think's got a good story. Well, you know, I've got a really good friend, actually one of my best friends, and she started a business about 11, 12 years ago now. She's just got a major investor. Her name is Julia Rostrom. Her company is Duck and Dry. So yeah, she's brilliant. She'll be a great guest. Love to have her on the show. Amazing. yeah um ala uber over thank you very much indeed thank you thank you so much thanks alex that was brilliant yeah thank you that was good i really enjoyed that thank you thank you if this conversation resonated with you don't just sit there act on it make sure you follow or subscribe for more game-changing conversations and remember the only thing standing between you and your business breakthrough is the decision to screw it and just do it