From a £2.30 Sale to a Billion-Dollar Business

26:43Alex Chisnall:And then at some point, I just need to step in here and do something about it and take back control. Because like you said, the bar has then been lowered, right? And that's the new bar. Yes, exactly. And then, I mean, it sounds harsh, but it's true. That, you know, another analogy, like a group of people in a company, often there are pillars and there are walls. In other words, if you think of a house, what holds the house up? It's the pillars. And then the walls, walls, they are to make it look like a room, but walls don't hold the house up. Same with people. There are ultimately like 10%, 15 % of people who are the pillars.

27:23And you have to obsess about it. And having like 10 % or 15 % or 20 % of those individuals makes a huge difference to the success of a company. And you as a leader, you just have to obsess about it all the time, all the time, because that's where your leverage comes from.

27:42Alex Chisnall:Yeah. What do you lose the most sleep over when it comes to the business? I sleep really well, by the way. I go flat and then three to five minutes, I'm… Same. I don't even remember going to sleep when I go to sleep, right? Exactly. So I feel I'm very blessed actually when I speak to quite a lot of people. But I definitely think about the team, the culture. Again, culture is like a garden. It has to be thought through where what plants grow. You're going to have weeds growing. You have to take them out. You have to consciously decide which plants are in the shadows, which ones are in the kind of broad sunlight, all of those things.

28:22And that's constantly evolving and moving. And the same is culture. So I do think a lot about the team, the individuals, the problems they're facing, how they're thinking about, you know, solving the problems, all that. And then secondly, like also spend a lot of time what the future will look like and how can we enable that, you know, autonomous vehicles all over this too. I can't wait to kind of ensure all of them. I can't wait to kind of that to be like millions and millions. and you know it's my duty to kind of as a leader to look beyond and place some bets

29:03Alex Chisnall:interesting and I believe was it today that Uber announced autonomous vehicles for trials in London I think they announced something a couple of weeks ago as well about trials yeah exactly but you know even though like we zoom out that's still small like there's 33 million vehicles in the uk uh probably 350 000 currently ride hailing licenses out there across the country um you know one percent yeah so if they all become autonomous and let's say you double that because people want to enjoy it more it's like two percent of uh vehicles right it's still tiny so it actually needs to become where like a 70-year-old in the countryside just puts in, I want to go from A to B and then does whatever they want to do.

29:56So that needs to be enabled. And as we know, because of the Strait of Hormuz, because of insurance, vehicles don't move. Insurance is like a microchip in a mobile phone. It's a lovely experience if it works and you don't think about it. But if the microchip doesn't work, it's a piece of metal. useless piece of metal insurance is exactly the same across all industries and i find it's very exciting that uh you know it's like uh you're almost like hidden but you're enabling temperature same story we don't think about temperature until it's too hot or too cold if it's optimal you're happy but but if it's not then you really it really bothers you and really like you paralyzes you right and the same is with insurance so it's it's exciting you have the best analogies by the

30:48Alex Chisnall:way of like anyone of a especially like the garden one with the culture i'm like you're good at that thank you it's very kind of you tell me about like some of the hardest times that you've you've had to go through as a founder in the zigo journey um maybe the moment when the version people read about in the headlines that i've maybe seen as part of my research that that look very different from like the reality of the company. Can you talk about that at all? I mean, there's a few. So in the first five years, so there were twice where, you know, I went home and I was like, I don't have a business tomorrow.

31:25And now, you know, then Reflectic gathered yourself and then next day you started fighting and then, you know, by the end of the second day still had a business and had figured out the plan. But definitely there's been a couple of times where, you know, such impactful things happen. Most of the people don't know about it. Second was when COVID happened. So we were selling hourly policies and mostly for food delivery back then and also like ride hailing. You know, restaurants shut down. No one was doing any ride hailing. We lost 80 % of revenue in three weeks. Three weeks? Yes. And I was about to go to raise money, which are like three, four months out.

32:14So immediately, 30 % redundancy. And that was really hard. A, seeing that happen that I can't control and also having to have to make those changes. And then two months later, all restaurants opened. Delivery came back booming. Yeah, yeah. And then the other way, kind of the pendulum swung. Yeah. And then the other one was after the team had tripled in six months and then to unpick that in 22 and 23. That was hard. It was like everyone was doubting in you. Everyone was saying you're the bad leader and all of those things, but you just had to persevere and kind of work through this. And it's hardcore mentally.

33:07Yeah, I mean, I don't think I've ever mentioned it as well, but that, you know, like 2020, and like you say, losing that much of your business, like in 2019, I started a podcast agency, and a

33:22Alex Chisnall:specific model of how many clients we wanted and how much revenue, you know, those clients we bringing in. and it's like really high value clients and we had like the biggest provider of office space in europe we had the biggest zoo in europe all making content with us and then literally overnight lost every client inside a month except one and you just look at those industries now what happened in 2020 like no one was in the office no one was buying office space no one was going to any outside attractions right because they're all shut down and you couldn't even have a conversation with the marketing department because they're all on furlough so they just stopped paying the checks and you couldn't even have a conversation about but here's the contract it was like there is no contract anymore it was a big big reset right again like the the analogy but i own a grand scheme of things i think some of those things are good as well like we were thinking of like a two-year timeline to take our in-office custom service to be more like kind of a offsite somewhere in another location or like just working from home.

34:29I mean, two-year plan that then got executed in four working days, right? So a lot of magic happened, even like cash economy, like completely disappeared because of that. So I think there's a lot of like structural changes that take place. And I, you know, another analogy, when you think of like seasons, you've got like the autumn storms and so forth, like there's loose branches, not strong branches and trees. they have to be blown off so that new ones can grow, right? I think it's the same in the economies and businesses. That's why we have those cycles of like, you know, crashes and kind of booms.

35:02They're both required in order for the healthiness overall to exist in economies. As in business, like you say. Exactly. And I think COVID was a bit of a wildfire in business. Yeah, yeah, for sure. In economy.

35:17Alex Chisnall:Anything that you'd look back on and think you've made a mistake and you'd go back and change that decision that you made? I made so many mistakes. I think I still make constantly mistakes. But I don't, I generally operate on a kind of a strong opinions, loosely held principle and decision making as well. If you're at this moment, you're making a decision with information available and then time goes by and you realize it was the wrong decision, then fair enough. now like make a new decision to fix that and i don't think it's fair to like kind of hold yourself and then kind of beat yourself up about some of those things because you you generally as long as you had good intentions you tried your best right yeah um and like you say you're dealing with the information at the time right which yeah exactly so therefore like this i made lots of mistakes where i you know on hindsight i maybe didn't look at the information well enough or didn't didn't dig deep enough but you know it was what it was right for me measure is like am i embarrassed about how i operated like six or 12 months ago and if i am embarrassed i'm like okay that's been good progress if i feel like okay actually it's the same then i'm like am i developing like quick enough fast enough to become better so so i don't necessarily i don't have like regret there's been laundry list of mistakes, some bigger, some less, some that are literally in tens of millions, right?

36:50But they've made me and the business who we are. And as long as you embrace those learnings in your next decisions, next steps, that's what matters. And to your point, you've obviously had to change as a person.

37:13Alex Chisnall:what do you think you may need to change to become the person that you need to be to take the business where you ultimately want to take it if you follow my line of thought yes i i say that like i've been hired and fired seven times at ziga you know metaphorically speaking because the job has changed so much and you do have to reset and that mental model does help me like okay, I got the business here, but that doesn't really work. So I need to fire myself. And I now need to hire myself again, but recontract with myself that what are the expectations? That mental model has really helped because when you start the business early on with a handful of people all the way, what, 370 people, you're doing different roles, different jobs as you go.

38:06So from...

38:10sorry, I lost your question.

38:13Alex Chisnall:Yeah, about becoming the person that you need to become to take the business where you ultimately want to take it, yeah. I think I, I don't think I know the answer fully because I don't know what the business needs are as the business kind of grows and develops, right? There will be different challenges. But I think I need to be always adaptable, always open-minded to very quickly kind of build on certain skills. Like, for example, now I'm very actively kind of in pricing world, very actively much more in product world, because I know that those skills really help to drive the business forward.

39:02But those are two areas that are critically important over the next 12 to 24 months for the business. So I need to be knowing they're enough to be dangerous, to be really challenging the team, working with the team and all that. So I think they come in waves of certain what the business's requirements are that I need to be adopting to.

39:24Alex Chisnall:Anything that you've changed your mind about since starting Zego? yeah i mean um one thing we idolize a lot of kind of uh ceos and entrepreneurs and i'm like someone in delt is like it's me it's me i'm like well it's not often it's the teams behind them that are they just had the initial guts to go for something and um and they've been clever enough smart enough to attract talent, great talent, and keep them that ultimately makes the business success. And definitely, I thought that those individuals, leaders are incredible, but yes, they are to the degree, but it's not like the success equals that.

40:19There's a ton of people that actually have to be doing exceptional job. So that's one. Um, hiring, I, I, similarly to what you described about yourself, like the importance of hiring, I, um, it was, it was kind of a, it was more like, uh, you know, we need to do finances, you know, one of those things you just have to do. Whereas it is like top two, top three priorities for me all the time now.

40:48Alex Chisnall:If you look at the headlines when you research Seago and yourself, um, you've already built a company with a billion dollar valuation, right? Does achieving something that big make you even more ambitious or does it completely change what your definition of, I think I know the answer, but does it completely change your definition of what success could be? I think I'm like, I say like, I can't live with what I'm doing. I can't live without what I'm doing. It's a borderline of addiction. It's a borderline of obsession, right? And why often people don't sell their businesses? Because they're terrified what comes after.

41:35Because that kind of intensity, stress, you name it, has been keeping them healthy. You take that away, like they don't know what to do with themselves, right? So, and I think like to me, it's just a, like a base camp of a base camp, you know, imagine we're climbing Mount Everest. Like, can I get to base camp one? Great. Okay. I got to one. Can I get to two? Great. Can I get to three? So it's a constantly growing kind of a challenge. And maybe initially you try to kind of prove it to people around you. now I'm like can I do it? I'm excited to see do I have the skills, abilities to hire people build products with teams to build something incredible and that is just fascinating and that's the driver for me I don't really like I'm not kind of a money motivated as such of course everyone wants a certain kind of a lifestyle yeah that gets resolved but like at the end of the day like i just want to see people enjoying the product when i did my first notebook business that was like i got very emotional because we we made the products make once a year for school season put them into the shops and then you can see all those kids and parents opening and looking them like Like, mom, look at this.

43:09This is cool. I didn't see this. And this like seeing the satisfaction, excitement of the product you created, knowing what went in there to create this just was an incredible highlight. And I think that's what a lot of founders as well, those kind of peak moments that like, that you live for. And mostly it's a kind of a challenge with myself. like can I build a company that is a generational business that generally solves problems for millions of people in the UK? Can I do that? And that is an exciting challenge and I love competing. I love all of that and that's what it ultimately is.

43:54Alex Chisnall:Ask a mutual friend a similar question like Stephen Mendel when you got that acquisition of the business for Double Unicorn. What did that mean? and he was like nothing I was like what do you mean nothing and he went that particular phrase you know like unicorn double unicorn the exit doesn't actually register anything with me you know yes again um it's great to um just to sell the business for x amount of money and uh you know it's enabled me to buy you know another place down near me and in in sandbanks and dorset have a nice you know family home and but ultimately that just gives me more options it gives me more more time and more options to choose what to do with my time.

44:36But he said that was never the aim.

44:40Alex Chisnall:So whenever that came around and people asked that, he said it doesn't actually register. Yeah, I think if I could, I would not have a unicorn status. I would have like 10 pounds less or something, you know, just so it wouldn't be. Because it actually comes with a lot of pressure, expectations and connotations, attracting potentially wrong people and all those things, right? so and it's not actually very helpful so but yeah I mean funny thing was when the money landed on the bank account it looked the same size because banks the way they signed their software is like the cell size is the same but whether you got like I don't know five numbers or seven numbers they just made smaller font then but really otherwise nothing else really of course then it's like there's In our case, my case, it was a pressure to now drive growth.

45:37And then you just went to do some pretty silly things. But otherwise, yeah, I think it's like funding grounds often are like petrol stations on the way to somewhere, like to Europe. You just stop in Paris, you stop, I don't know, Berlin, you fuel your car, but it's not the destination. At the moment, it's a destination. I think you're moving in the wrong direction. And you said the mission.

46:06Alex Chisnall:Is there a destination as well? Is there a particular point? I want to build a Viva Admiral combined household name insurance company for future generations in the UK and also maybe beyond. Insurance is super complicated internationally, so we can talk about that separately. But in the UK, I want like, you know, 70 million population. I want ZEGO genuinely be the household name that like, they don't even think about that, how easy it is to have all the insurance needs served. And I truly feel that like, like the future generations deserve that. And I think it's, I, and we are one of the companies who are the most well placed to kind of achieve that.

46:54And I have this sense of responsibility, I feel, to not to F it up and actually, you know, try and achieve it for the future generations. And that's the aim.

47:05Alex Chisnall:Sounds like you've got the ambition and the energy to do that. Yeah, tell me a little bit about internationally then. What have, what are you doing? What are you not doing? What have you thought about doing? Yeah, so initially I thought like international expansion is like super straightforward. and at some point we were in like 12 markets. But insurance at the end of the day comes down to your claims. So if I sell you a£100 policy, after that probably around£65-70 depending on the product is to pay out the claims. So that really matters how well you do that and that really varies country by country.

47:52In the UK, the largest loss we have is 24 million pounds. In Europe, the maximum loss you'll ever have is 10 million. In the US, it's like half a million. US is a very litigious country where everything is lawyers, whereas here, like very marginally. There's a lot of nuances. So you really have to go super deep in each of those countries in order to do that really well. So therefore, you have to really go deep. And going deep, it's lots of hard work. However, I would expand and we are actively exploring that with our technology and to partner up with someone. So because we have built an end-to-end operating system of an insurance company that we do everything.

48:36And it's like incredible and super fast, super slick. And if we partner up with another insurer who then handles claims and provides the insurance capacity and then run all of that business in our own infrastructure, that's something that we're looking into already. That's the way to do that. But that's more like a joint venture kind of a partnership setup.

49:01Alex Chisnall:Like you said, there's different ways to get there, isn't there? You can acquire companies who are already operating in that space as well, right? Okay, last couple of questions and then we've got a little quick fire round. looking back across everything so from like the notepads when you're 17 through to building Zigo what would you say was like your biggest screw it just do it moment like the decision where you've stopped acting you stopped like waiting procrastinating and you've you've taken action and there might be more than one of those but one was moved to the UK I was like look just something's telling me I need to be abroad and in an international location.

49:44That was that. It was like, yep, buy the ticket. Let's go. One-way ticket. Yes, exactly. And then second one was we're starting Ziga. I remember very clearly having a conversation that, look, we are 30, well-paid, exciting job, but at the same time, we got nothing to lose if you do it. The worst thing happens six months from now. We're just not paid ourselves, no salary, no income, worked really hard, and that's it. And then you'll go and find another job. So actually nothing to lose. It's like, let's do it. And now it's that, let's go. And I think that's been it too. And I encourage people thinking that way because the risk is actually pretty minimal.

50:32Alex Chisnall:And the younger you are, the less risk is. You haven't got any responsibilities. Yeah, you don't have the expensive lifestyle that you need to support. That's the biggest problem. That's the biggest challenge that people fall in a trap to. They have their fixed kind of cost base so high that they just cannot get away from it. Yeah, yeah. No, I agree with you. So always finish with a quick fire round. So it's whatever comes to your head. No right or wrong answers, okay? What would you say an entrepreneur is, your definition? A builder, a greater, someone who loves to bring something else in their mind.

51:06to life, I'd say. What about a scale-up business? What is a scale-up business? It's like a business who's gone from zero to one, and now they're going from one to 10. They're like, they figured it out, the kind of things at the moment, because the world moves so fast. So at the moment, they figured stuff out. And now there's like, how can we do more of the same and move really fast? That's a scale-up.

51:29Alex Chisnall:And which entrepreneur do you admire the most? And that can be like historically or somebody that's come on your radar and you started following them? There's a ton of founders who are like, they built exciting businesses. But I guess I said earlier, like often of them, there's like a whole team behind them. So I don't really like to kind of glorify them. Again, the ones, you know, you maybe hear more about, they're just doing more press. Half the time, they're just doing press. So I wouldn't, but I have a lot of respect for founders and businesses who take really hard problems, who solve like hardware, software problems combined, like people in defense, people in energy.

52:09Like these are some like hardcore, this is like chewing metal, right? You've got software problems combined with hardware problems, right? And also add regulation on top, right? Software, hardware, regulation, I have a huge amount of respect for people who kind of pick up some real big problems and go and solve for those.

52:27Alex Chisnall:I like that answer. What film has stayed with you or had an impact on you, your life? I often watch a movie like one and then my wife loves to watch movies, multiple, same movie many, many times whereas I'm like once I'm done. But the movie I watched the most is Inception. Ah, okay. I think there's something like, it's on the borderline of reality and creativity and I find that that's been a movie I've enjoyed watching every now and again. That's a cool movie I need to re-watch, yeah. what's something your parents taught you that you've carried through your life i think like uh one is sales my parents are both pretty good sales people in general like maybe that comes with like you know ability to explain persuade you know motivate all that um but um yeah that's probably the first one are you into your music i am but i'm more like a pop pop boy so can you pick a song that best reflects your journey so far maybe that's like i think it's so far it's like backstreet boys as a band this is where i like do my best focus work with i put on backstreet boys playlist and there's the best focus work and uh everyone's got their jam yes exactly so several songs by them okay i've been a guest on the show um you don't have to give me your answer now.

53:51Alex Chisnall:Is there anyone you'd recommend as a future guest that maybe people haven't heard of but have got like a really good screw it, just do it story? Stream founders are building an incredible business. So they are great two guys that are also super funny and smart. British and American, put them in a room. So much fun. Okay, sounds good. last question finally when all is said and done how would you best like to be remembered I don't really care whether people remember me as such as an individual I just want to make sure that like if I interact with people I've interacted in general that like they come out net net positive so I just want to be like a positive impact on society and people I interact with so So pretty low kind of, I don't care about, like when I was building my own business when I was 17, at some point I got to the place that like, I felt like everything I touched turned into gold.

54:59So I truly felt like I'm this incredible guy. And then, you know, five projects completely failed and then reality hits home. So I'm very pleased it happened early on in my career. So I, therefore I'm kind of like, like I want to do something I enjoy, something that's fun and something that has an impact. And if net-net people come out from interacting with me and the products companies I build are positive, then it's a win.

55:24Alex Chisnall:It's interesting. And I don't think it's happened very often, but there's a few people I've chatted to over the years and they haven't started a business till maybe their 30s or something. And the first thing they start is successful. And then they then exit it in their mid-40s or 50s. And then they go and try the next thing. And the next thing fails. and they're just like absolutely gobsmacked. Like how can it possibly fail? And they try something else and that fails as well. And it's like, right, that's it. Yes. Time out. Exactly. And then literally the success rates are like so small. First of all, to building a successful business, like odds are all against you.

56:01And yet you're going to have a second home run. I mean, nearly, it's like very, very slim odds, right? It literally is like tiny, isn't it? 0.00. Exactly. So I think there's the humility and realization there is very relevant. And, you know, people often think it's just them, but it's more so. It's the timing. It's, you know, which is all macro, right? Yeah. And then, you know, a good, healthy amount of luck and then relentless work, right? Yeah. So you only actually control one of the three.

56:42Alex Chisnall:so timing's everything right that's something i was reflecting on last night with so many of the people that i've interviewed and and you know them you know some people say there's no such thing as luck some people say you know the harder i work the luckier i get um but i think so much is timing yes yes like i mean who who knew like even ziga when we started insurance wasn't popular like all those companies that are currently getting funding or got funding a couple of years ago, they were going three, four years before. Or the founders or the core founding teams were in that problem several years before.

57:18And people, you need to be ahead of the wave. And you don't know when the wave is going to hit to then like take defense, right? Very unpopular. There's a bunch of energy, not popular at all compared to now. So you can't forecast those. And if you're like, okay, defense is popular. Let me go and start doing it. you're already late. So I think timing is something that you can't control and therefore you need to default to what you actually enjoy doing and follow that. Massively. Good advice.

57:50Alex Chisnall:Stan, thank you very much indeed. That's an awesome conversation. Thank you for having me. It was great fun. Thanks for listening. And if today's episode has inspired you to take action, why not take the next step? Come and meet me at the Festival of Entrepreneurs this November at the NEC in Birmingham. them. You'll be able to meet many of the founders you've heard on this podcast, along with hundreds of ambitious entrepreneurs from across the UK. I'd love to see you there. So just go to festivalofentrepreneurs.co.uk to register for your free, yes, free ticket.