How Sandra Byrne Built the Biggest Lush Store by Acting Like an Owner

0:00Leadership to me is always to how do I inspire. yeah where my love for cosmetics came from is i was in body shop before lush just taking on an eight hour contract i think i was about 21 at the time enjoyed body shop so much and kind of just work my way up to management level didn't know about lush at the time you know wasn't in liverpool stumbled across it and thought what is this you know what is this like magical amazingness and just was obsessed. Vision has definitely come from what can I do to make my city proud? That was part of it because I knew that it was them that was building my business.

0:48Welcome to Screw It, Just Do It, the show for those who decided to screw it and just did it. This is the podcast that brings you face to face with the entrepreneurs and business rebels who threw caution to the wind and built something extraordinary. Most people think entrepreneurs start companies. But some of the most entrepreneurial people I've ever met have never founded a business at all. Today's guest is a perfect example of that. Sandra Byrne opened Liverpool's very first Lush shop over 20 years ago. And today she leads the biggest Lush store in the world, right in the heart of the city. She built record breaking performance inside a billion pound brand, not by following a playbook, but by acting like an owner, backing her instincts and embedding herself deeply in the Liverpool community.

1:28This conversation is about what entrepreneurship really looks like inside a large organization. Taking risks without permission, building culture on the shop floor, developing people, and repeatedly saying, screw it, just do it. If you've ever felt entrepreneurial but didn't have the title, this episode is for you. So Sandra, you're not known as an entrepreneur. Do you see yourself as one though? I didn't until I started doing some, I would do some talks for consultancy firms where they would ask me to come on board when they'd heard about my journey, my long journey in retail leadership. And I think it was inspiring all of these people in a room.

2:10And then after the talks, I'd have like a big line waiting to speak to me. And then I remember just having one of those aha moments and thinking, actually, this is what an entrepreneur is you know it's a visionary and that's exactly what I am is a visionary I love that um it's interesting like our connection is is Rowena um bird from from Lush and I remember last talk that we did with her she literally just had this huge line of people she's trying to like leave you know to get on the motorway get in the car and get home from Birmingham back down to Dorset but she had this massive queue of people so people are always I think fascinated with with the Lush story.

2:49Interested to know more about your story. So tell me what led you to Lush and was there a screw it, just do it moment and a hard moment that made you decide to kind of take the leap from whatever you were doing at the time and got you to where you are today? So where my love for cosmetics came from is I was in body shop before Lush. I'd just taken on an eight-hour contract when I think I was about 21 at the time so I had a two-year-old I was pregnant at 19 left school at 15 with no qualifications then decided I wanted to get back into school and wanted to get back into college and even do an access course to get into university so I thought oh yeah take a little retail job get me through so enjoy body shop so much and kind of just work my way up to management level there as well didn't know about lush at the time you know wasn't in liverpool the nearest one i think it was chester at the time and stumbled across it and thought what is this you know what is this like magical um amazingness you know like seeing these bath bombs for the first time seeing like this this soap that looked like truckles of cheese and just was obsessed so then every Christmas on my list was the same the same Christmas box my husband would have to go and get it um and then when I heard it was coming into Liverpool and in these days there was no social media I seen it in my local newspaper you remember when you used to put job advertisements yeah yeah yeah so it was there I wasn't looking for a new job and I thought maybe this is meant to be so um the rest is history and that was 21 years ago and we opened the first lush store for Liverpool um 21 years ago on our high street and how did you juggle life then with um young babies you said you left school at 15 that's like super young isn't it you know but but ultimately were kind of reeled back in um yeah how did you How did you juggle life?

4:57What did life look like for you? What were the challenges at that time for you? Well, I suppose that school was just a challenge for me. You know, I never enjoyed those years. Some people say it's the best years. It certainly wasn't for me. It wasn't until like later in life. I mean, very later in life, just recently of like knowing that having ADHD and dyslexia, that I can see where the challenges come from. But where those challenges come from, that's where my vision is like super strong. My vision resides. So knowing that that kind of wasn't my career path and that people are, you know, just being around people, being around service, that is definitely where I wanted to go.

5:43So the juggling of life, really, it got easier for me once I kind of accepted that I was never going to be sitting in a classroom and studying for my exams. That wasn't for me at that moment. And yeah, with Body Shop, it was over a few years, you know, going from an eight hour contract and then working up 12 hours, 20 hours. Oh, I want to go into management. I'm liking the feel of this. and then going for the Lush job and just really leaning into it. And you got the Lush job straight away, did you? I did. And even that's a funny story. I think there's everything about your career. My career in Lush has been exciting and funny and still is.

6:27So there was about 40 people in the room and it was a group interview. And I walked into this group interview. So we're talking 2003 with a full white pinstripe suit on, stiletto heels, hair done. And around this room, it's just people all in relaxed clothes, all casual, just all in jeans and T-shirts. And I was like, oh God, I'm sticking out like a sore thumb here. And I remember when it got around to me to do my presentation and I completely lost where I was going with my train of thought. and I said I'm really sorry but I feel like an extra in footballers wives here remember it was a thing at the time and they said didn't you get the memo that it was casual I was like no but look you know 21 years later I was memorable if anything I was gonna say that you clearly stood out in in one way shape or form um which is a good thing clearly um an interesting story then an interesting story um so tell me um what does like acting like an owner actually look like when the business isn't yours because maybe for context tell us a little bit about the store that you're at in liverpool which is like flagship store like you can see in the background for those who are watching you you're high up is it like four stories i think you said it was earlier is that right so again i'm on the fourth floor here um this is like in development this area here it's a full-blown department store and there's really not many of its kind worldwide so there's none in lush this is the biggest lush shop we're four and a half times bigger than oxford street you know our capital city so um yeah it's four and a half times bigger than that it's a massive department store but also looking i don't know whether there's any other department stores that are company owned by one brand that have a cosmetic department store so I think we're pretty unique for for that to to be on our high street and also to not be in our capital city you know what a massive investment we've talked and put it in Liverpool that is not like known as a really large city in our in our country yeah and when you started that how long did it take you to work up to the to the current role you are now then so well I opened um the a really tiny shop I mean the the size of the shop floor would probably fit in one of our meeting rooms that's the size of my first shop honestly yeah so you know Lush was always well known for that back in the day it was the small bath bomb shop the soap shop on the high street never these large retail units so yeah mine was just one of those very narrow um you know a bit longer at the back but really I mean a tiny little store when I reflect on it now and the city didn't know about it you know like me I stumbled across Lush so I opened this shop and this city doesn't know about Lush at all so then all I'm thinking is how do I get my business out there you know how do I market this business we're in the the times of no social media um it's all words of mouth here so I would network with the community you know whatever was going on in the city I either knew about it or I was there I was attending it you know whether that was a conference I was definitely out on my comfort zone I mean I would get dressed up in suits and I would go to networking events that was full of all business people and then when I would network with them I'd be like how about you have like a bath bomb making workshop how about we make Christmas easier for you and we come and bring and make a store inside of your conference room you know so I would get to know all over the city the events that were happening businesses that I could work with and literally grew my business from a community and i love the the way you talk about like my business again and i'm sure it must help being being a local being in in those surroundings so people buy into that and they buy into your story as well the more you talk about it in networking events right people buy from people rather than you know the name lush in the shop of course it's different now when it's a it's a global brand but when you're you're starting a new business in a new city um where you talk about like you know the vision you you've had for the business so maybe a couple of things here like maybe you know where does where does that come from do you think from from yourself where does the vision come from where do those ideas come from um and where does that kind of innate sense of like loyalty to to lush and that alignment with it feeling like you know it is yours it is Because I felt like that very much at Virgin Atlantic, interestingly.

11:34And so many other people who left years ago, we all still feel the same. We still have Facebook groups. So we talk about working at Virgin, sharing photos. I was just looking at them this morning, literally from the 90s, people posting stuff of us in Hong Kong, in Japan and stuff like that. And it definitely came from the top. It definitely came from Richard. And there was a real party atmosphere at Virgin in those days as well. There was that sense of a David against a Goliath as well at that time, like a Virgin against the British Airways. So, yeah, interested to know where your vision comes from and where that kind of, you know, inbuilt loyalty comes from as well.

12:14Well, the vision has definitely come from what can I do to make my city proud? That was part of it because I knew that it was them that was building my business. I mean they were so loyal to me that when I was going out to these events they were I could see it day by day they would be coming in oh I seen you at this event oh I seen you know if it was a school event I was there oh my children were talking about you there and then the loyalty from the city and then they kept coming back I kept thinking what else can we do I remember like we would be doing um I really like to to just have that that surprisingness of when a customer comes in and they literally can't believe the service they're having you know it really does come back at the end of the day it doesn't matter how much vision I have that service has got to be right so you know when they've had service like they literally cannot believe what they're feeling you know that feeling that they've got that someone's just took that time and been so authentic and delivered five-star service but then they've come in another day and the whole shop is like Narnia you know we've turned the shop this floor I mean everything from it you walk through the doors that was the wardrobe you're walking right in there's Mr Tumnus with hot chocolate you know and it's like people had never seen this 20 years ago happening or not happening on a tiny little floor in the middle of Liverpool then we get to the summer and I started working with um like cream and cream fields so then we would have dancers outside the shop and we'd have live DJs we'd have big DJs on this tiny shop floor on a Saturday afternoon you know so it was it was always like you know what is next how can we keep our customers wanting to come back you know what can I do for them?

14:15And then the loyalty to the business and the brand is they let me be me. You know, they let me develop my leadership style. They let me give me space. You know, you're hearing all of the things that did work, but what you're not hearing is the 90 things that failed, you know, that I was allowed to be able to make those mistakes, be resilient, pick myself for and try again as well and having that space and freedom in this company to be able to support my growth is you know that that gives me the loyalty that gives that's my loyalty to them nice um yeah it's interesting like when you think of the british high street um and you know what's changed you know over the last few years etc and you think of what an interactive experience it is to go into a Lush store and how many more businesses should be embracing that kind of engagement that you get.

15:16And I know the extra things that you do is all the extra services. Like both of my girls, when they were little, had their birthdays in the Lush store in Paul High Street as well with all their friends and they're all making their own bath bombs and they're taking them home and bags and stuff. And you just think there's something magical about that, right? And as you very well know, I'm sure, you're engaging all of somebody's different senses aren't you it's it's the sights it's the sound it's the smell I mean you're not going to eat a bath bomb right but maybe somebody's eating a bath bomb don't this do this at home kids but all of those senses um has an impact on someone doesn't it absolutely and they maybe don't eat the bath bombs but we definitely see teeth marks in that soap honestly we've definitely found that quite numerous times here um it is a sensory experience that's hilarious yes yeah yeah a lot it is our shops are super sensory and our our products are so innovative and they've got so much love and so many stories behind them that it's important to almost make them come alive as well and you can't just make that come alive at some mediocre service you know we've got to make sure that we are we are just as alive as are our products you know and I say that to all of the team is imagine if people were coming in to see you you know they're coming in because they were so well known we are having amazing service on the high street so they're already coming in for that but then they come in like over Christmas time and then they've got confetti cannons going off over their heads you know they've got Santa who's waiting on the stairs and waving to everybody it's those extra parts as well like we need to keep the magic alive on the high street need to come up before next christmas clearly don't i it's uh that's amazing um tell me where where do you think you've taken risks yourself like within the business over the over the years oh gosh daily sounds like roe as well she says that yeah okay I'm constantly taking risk I think um my boss Mark one of his favorite things to say to me is oh Sandra do what you always do do it don't tell me so um and again that is you know what a nice place to work when you're allowed to take those risks you know and even if they don't work it's like okay you know just build yourself back up and try something new but taking risk it's part of being an entrepreneur everything is new you know if you've got a vision it's a lot of the time it's never been done before and especially in my company because I'm gonna say 90 % of the actually probably even most of the shops even going on to like 99 % are small shop floors as a retail environment where I'm you know I've got a spa we've got a blow-dry bar we've got a perfume library we've got a coffee shop you know it's all of these things that I've got to keep fresh and new so we've all there's always an element of risk so just at Christmas time for instance we opened a Christmas grotto I did the first one quite a few years ago now and again the customers have come accustomed to that it's like what's gonna happen this Christmas in Lush Liverpool so then this year I thought I'd do something which was definitely a bit risky um for when the shop was closed for two nights in December I turned it into a queermas so it was a grotto run by drag queens a grotto run by drag queens right yeah yeah so an adult experience and um it was just a fantastic show and for people they came to me afterwards and people could hardly believe this was happening in a retail shop yeah but it's sort of and I remember this from virgin like I I worked my way up as far as I could go at virgin atlantic it's like the highest role I could get to and And then we had the last financial crisis in 2009.

19:39And I took that opportunity to go because ultimately, I think, Richard's influence had kind of rubbed off on me and I wanted to start my own business. I had this kind of itch that I wanted to scratch, you know. But 21 years is a long time, longer than I was at Virgin. What's kept you driven when many people would have moved on to try something else, to pastures new? I mean, maybe I'm asking the wrong question now because you just told me about taking risks and the Christmas grotto of the dragons. If somebody empowers you like that, and Virgin was very much like that, you're empowered to try stuff, to take risks, then you're going to want to stay there, right?

20:18And I think it's not been the same job for over 21 years. It's been so different because this is the third shop I've opened in the Liverpool City Centre. as we said we went from the tiny shop then the second shop what I did was I decided and it was this is how I work is I decide what my next part of my journey is and I was like I want a spa so I went to night school I trained to be a therapist reflexologist ended up being a Reiki master and aromatherapist and then I go to the founders and say okay Liverpool's outgrown that now we need a bigger shop so um and in true founder style they're like go and find that shop so i did i went on you but you can do it right they can do it it's just on you you want to do it go and find it i love that that's awesome so i did i went and found it and then we opened the second lush store with a spa and um yeah it was again i did the same thing you know that entrepreneurial style of building your business, outgrowing the business.

21:28Where do I go next? I was thinking, but I'd done that much networking and I got that well-known in the city that I even said to Liverpool Council at one point, I was like, I want to look for a bigger location. Let me know if anything comes up. And this is again, I don't speak to anyone. I just like, okay, let me see what the next steps are let's see what our city's got to offer and then one day I get this phone call and they're like no one knows this even the shop in question doesn't know this or the staff that are working in there but this shop is going to go and it's a massive shop on the high street it was a Burton's Dorothy Perkins top shop previously and they said this is going to go on the high street so I did what I normally do got in touch with the founders I was like I found a new unit and they came down um Mark was in here and he's like wow he's like this we've never done anything like this it's huge then Rowena come down and Rowena said um I think this is this is too big this is off the scale I said but this is the next part of my development this is the next part of my journey and we went back and forth but you know we got Liverpool and what like an amazing achievement for having founders of the company to trust me and my city to house this like an amazing department store so yeah that that's how it's kept me here is because I never kept my job the same You know, and also I never kept me the same.

23:11I've taken self-development so seriously. If anyone asks me, you know, what is my success? It is self-development. I remember in my tiny little shop and my training manager at the time, her fiancé had been given these two books by his business colleague and said, I'm never going to read them. Give them to Sandra. And it was The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, Stephen Covey. And it was definitely one by Jack Canfield, The Success Principles by Jack Canfield as well. And literally, they changed my life. They changed my life because I didn't know you could get all this learning by just reading a book.

23:58You know, being ADHD as well and being dyslexic. I found things difficult in the past, but actually when something got my attention, I got obsessed. You know, then I found TED Talks and then that's never, ever stopped. I'm constantly learning, constantly. I have a business coach who holds me accountable. You know, I've always got a book. I always have two. I have one for the morning, one for the evening. And I'm always developing myself. Yeah, Jack Campbell. Yeah, he also co-wrote Chicken Soup for the Soul. Soup for the Soul, that's right, yes. Trying to remember the co-author because I've interviewed the other author on this show and I can't remember his bloody name now.

24:44It's typical, isn't it, on the spot? Yeah. Yeah, no, great couple of books there. Great couple of books. What about, so Liverpool Lush is now the biggest in the world, right? What's harder, do you think, starting small or scaling from what you were without losing what what made it special originally oh you know what I always say this story as well so we opened here in 2019 and I've always had that entrepreneurial mindset creativity and for the first year is the honeymoon year and all I did was kind of just try to get my head round running this massive business within with all these businesses inside it so the creativity wasn't there and then COVID hit the year like a year and a day from when I opened and then things got turned on its head because obviously I've got a hairdressers I've got a whole half of my shop is makeup with all of these makeup artists I've got a spa so it was really challenging time especially for for this like new business too and for a few years my creativity just wasn't there it wasn't there it really actually if anything it stumped it so having the big shot it was almost like just spinning plates all the time that it was not really it was kind of just wanting to get through the day rather than building the day so it took me a few years to be honest with you to to get back into that mindset again um and then now now i mean that creativity is flowing but there was definitely a time there where it was like have i have i made a mistake here going from those smaller shops scaling up and then you can't yeah you do and then there's definitely a moment where you're thinking you can't scale up anymore you'd have to leave you know being a retail manager but I love that whole service part of it I love that and that's where I'm benefit to I benefit the company as well is like what is the next steps of this so there was there's definitely been a few years of where do I go next and then you find yourself again Alex and then you're like okay this is amazing there's always something to do so like this floor we're on now this this is kind of goes to be a Christmas floor now and again I do events here I actually hosted Eurovision here so when Eurovision was on the tv in Liverpool so I worked with their official fan club and every act apart from about two come and performed on this this floor honestly yes and then sometimes it could be an art gallery we had a gallery come from New York went to Copenhagen and then it come to Liverpool so it's always been an exciting place and always something going on and you could see that's where where I could scale up again and then this year we've got some super exciting plans that we're still working on as well and was there you mentioned covid especially and you'd only been going for for a year but was there anything that that nearly broke as you tried to grow from like such a small um shop to such a such a big one um it was it was that spin in the plates because i would all you know you come from having this shop floor you've got this shop floor you can see everything that's going on by standing there then all of a sudden you've got a department store with four floors five floors if you think about the basement which is like a whole stock floor with a whole team so you couldn't you it was that control you know of having everything that was right in front of you but then now you're on all these different departments and how do you make sure that you've still got this community going on because not only did I work with the community I made a community in-house you know our team was such a tight-knit team and we went from maybe a team of I think at the most maybe 85 to 255 for the first Christmas I was just going to ask you that what's the size of the team interesting 255 so still trying to keep that that lovely sense of camaraderie that was probably one of the things that definitely nearly broke me is how do we get that back and and what does leadership look like for you like on a on a day-to-day basis on on on the shop floor like how do you spot potential for someone who you think could be promoted how do you keep standards high and and customer care higher for people when you when you're managing like hundreds of people it's tough right oh it is it is tough but you've you've got the right team in place what happens is they're they're there they're filling in your weaknesses as well you know so what I've done is I've built this amazing management team so we've got shop floor managers we've got spa managers so then now I can connect with them and I can make sure so I inspire them We have regular manager meetings and then they inspire their teams because what I knew was is that there's one of me and I can't get round to everybody.

30:25So how can I do that? I recruit and then I develop the right team underneath me and then they get all of me and then they trickle it down to the rest of the team all the way through. Yes. But leadership to me is always to how do I inspire? you know how do I make the team feel secure and how do I inspire them yeah well I think just having spoken to you for a short period of time I could see where the where the inspiration comes from definitely can see why people would would look up to you in the way you you know you speak very confidently um no you do you've obviously got some some great stories there as well you know you've got the experience um you've got some fantastic stories there and you people have and if they don't know the history they can find it out by listening to podcasts like this but how you've you know grown from you know something like you know that kind of thing that that small acorn to like a big big oak tree um there's probably not not a better example right um and you've obviously seen um spend a lot of time with the founders like you said i think you said you at one point you were down here every month in pool where the where the hq is i mean you see bits of bits of lush everywhere dotted around Paul when you're driving around here.

31:38So you know, you don't know what it's like, obviously, to start your own thing, but you've seen what they've done in starting and growing that business. And you've also been, you're inside a huge organization. What do you think's harder about being entrepreneurial, like inside a huge organization compared to starting your own thing? Do you think it's that any constraints, any politics like patience needed I don't know I think from within the 20 years so we when I first opened the shop Lush then was only nine years old so we were still quite a new brand anyway so the things I was doing was always like oh what's this what's Liverpool doing so then we all can follow but then now we're so massive that you know I have to always make sure that when I'm working on something I've got other people involved as well because you can be very entrepreneurial about your own shop but really I have to think about now what does this look like around the rest of the world you know so it's always thinking about the brand thinking about how could another shop take this you know obviously we've got a massive shop floor so for instance we've just um just before Christmas we started a new skin workshop and it was all about the education of young skin and inviting young people in inviting guardians in and showing the guardians and the young people how to look after and clean their skin you know it's just something so small it's a free workshop 45 minute long called skin introduction and um just started working so good that now it's going to be rolled out all over the world you know so now what what is different from scaling up from 20 years ago is always bearing in mind does this fit in with the brand what does this look like if japan took it for instance yeah no that that that's a fantastic example of of having you know an idea and then seeing it grow like at scale i mean i think rose shared back in october that that lush is now a billion pound brand, which is like phenomenal, right?

33:53One of Britain's best success stories, but as we were talking off air before, not one that necessarily everybody knows about, right? No, they don't, because we still hear people say, oh, we thought it come from the States. We didn't even know it was in the UK. I was like, yeah, it's just in Dorset. You know, we're all there and it's all getting handmade. You know, it's so beautiful to go and see that. these have just been made three days ago and then now you're buying it you know what a wonderful story and then if they've got time let me tell you about those ingredients and how we've sourced them from amazing places from all around the world you know i love that our ethos is let's leave the world luscious and we found him you know how amazing is that and when you look back i think i know the answer but what matters more to you like the record-breaking results that the business has had or the people that you've you've helped grow probably a difficult one to actually ask you actually now that I've read it but anyway no it's definitely the people it's all about the people for me it's all about the um the development the inspiration the community um some of my favorite things of being a leader within lush is seeing those people that have came to me from being a christmas temp and are now working for the whole wider brand of lush you know we've got people that have just come from the liverpool shop floor on a christmas temp that's come from one of those small shops and they're all around the world now you know whether whether that is like the makeup creation or diversity and digital.

35:42I mean, these are people that have just come from the Liverpool city, taken a little contract over Christmas time, and then they've grew their careers within this big organisation. We've had quite a few of those people, and that really makes me super proud. And then just seeing my shop floor and, you know, knowing that I know every single one of these people on the journey, and you know that that's what we try to do is really just really emphasis on on what is your next part what can you bring to the shelf floor how can we make you valuable to the workplace you know what what is what does your journey want to look like and I never carve everything else I'm never a spoon feeder that's what I don't do in my leadership style you know those those apron strings are off unless you really need me you know and then we're there to help and support and inspire yeah it's it's super important sandra isn't it and again it you know reflect back on you know and i spent that you know big chunk of time at virgin and when i was kind of working my way up you'd see um different flight service managers um and you'd be you'd make your own mind i want to be like that one and not like that one and it would be like seeing the ones you know something there'll be a challenge on board a flight 400 people you know in a metal tube flying you know 17 hours across the atlantic or something and you've got to solve solve a problem and it was those who would just go up and solve it themselves rather than those who would you know like with your example about wanting the bigger bigger shop for example actually going okay well you go and do it and you know in cutting them a bit of rope to actually go and find that solution and maybe they need to you know you're there to be a sounding board and to you know bounce ideas off them but ultimately for me it's always it was always those those managers those people who would empower you to go and do the thing yourself even if you you made a mistake that you would still feel confident to go and try again next time so to finish up maybe for someone who's in a listening at the moment or watching and in a big organization who feels entrepreneurial but doesn't have the title what would your advice be to them it would be absolutely just do something and I think it people worry that they're waiting for the right time the right experience but really I think compounding is the way forward if you start with small steps no matter what it is you will get there it's consistency and moving forward um and that's that's why I'm not there that's why my journey hasn't ended you know I haven't got a next five-year plan of where my career is going to go where I'm like hell I'm studying I'm compounding and I know when something else comes up I'll be ready for it so having that faith as well I think that's a big a big part of is believing in yourself, having the faith.

38:44And like Mel Robbins says, five, four, three, two, one, and move. Good. I was literally going to just thought of something I was going to say. So what are you reading at the moment? Is there a book that you're reading at the moment? Do you know what? It's such an old book, but yes, I'm reading Napoleon Hill's Think Rich. Yeah. Great book. Grow rich. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Think and grow rich. Yeah, great book. But actually got a quick fire round. So just to close off. So first thing that comes into your head, short and sweet, don't have to spend too long on it. First question is, and I get a different answer from everybody, right?

39:21First question is, for you, what is an entrepreneur? Simply a visionary who sees a vision, but then also is tenacious and wants to go for it. Like that. And you've obviously seen both sides of the coin with Lush for these next two questions, which are what is a startup business and what is a scale-up business? I think the startup business is definitely something new. You know, you're starting it up. It's something new. It's like when I bought Liverpool Lush on the high street and that was my startup. And then the scaling up was everyone in this city is going to know about me. I'm not going to just know about me.

40:00They're going to know about my business. And I'm going to market myself. I'm going to market the business. and there was no point where I knew I've got there. I'm still not there. I did once, though, win an award and I was higher than Paul McCartney as the most inspirational person in Merseyside. So that was like one achievement. That's a win. Yes, that was a mini win. But yes, that scale up, I don't think it ever finishes. It's always what is next. Yeah, a common question like when I've had Ro on before has been like, you know, when are you going to exit the business? She's like, I don't think I ever will just because every day is an exciting day.

40:45I'm always thinking of a new product or a new way of doing something. And that's why she was saying she still gets up in the morning and drives from the new forest into pool and works with the team there. Yes, and I think that's what they've installed in me as well, is innovation doesn't have to just be a product. You know, my innovation is how I lead my team, how I bring experiential service onto the high street. How do I keep building these businesses? So that's where my innovation comes from, is seeing the founders that come every single day to work, you know, to invest in our business. And then that makes me, you know, it gives me so much happiness and joy that I want to do the same and I want to deliver that.

41:35And what do you think we need to do as a country to encourage more startups and more scale ups? um well we need to lower those business rates straight away and we need we do and we need to make our high streets actually a place where people want to visit you know I spoke um at the houses of parliament over the summertime you know about getting more investment into the Liverpool city centre um and that's where we all should be looking at our own cities is like we need to give people a reason to come out because it's so easy to just click that button and do your shopping but really it's not easy to create what I've created online but I want us all to do that and that's my focus of this year is my high street here has had a bit of a regeneration so Marks and Spencer's they closed down and they moved into another location and it was a massive store really massive then as I say um top shop that used to be the whole of this side of the building they went I mean at one point there's just this fantastic department store in this middle of the high street so then now we've got like all new neighbors come on we've got flagship stores all around me now I want to get all of those retail managers together and say what can we do to make sure that our high street is staying relevant and that all our visitors that keep coming to our city are talking about us so we've got to be in it together yeah no it's a good point and i saw like down here actually like again marcus and spencers pulled out of bournemouth and pool and then um marcus and spencers just bought a massive site in pool and are building that site now it was like an old home-based site and they're building that and you just think okay there's an opportunity to get it back to what it used to be, right?

43:36But it needs everybody pulling in the right direction and thinking outside the box, just like Lush does, trying to make things more engaging, engaging all the senses and giving people, as you said, a reason to want to visit and not just go onto the obvious website that everybody goes to to order everything and just clicking, right? Absolutely. What it also needs is some of these business owners to get onto their high streets and see what is going on. some of their CEOs to come down where Mark and Rowena will come and visit me and we can talk about the high street. Because when I do have these meetings with the other retailers and I'll be like, let's do this.

44:13How about we collaborate with this? They're like, oh no, my company's going to stop that. My company won't allow us to do that. And it's like, we need to stop these restraints because we've got a high street that we want to have vibrant again like it was before 2019. so yeah I think it's got to come from the top like you said earlier Alex it needs to have that that innovation at the top and that willingness as well to change if we're going to make a high street like how it used to be again and that's what's lovely with Lush is that we've got these founders that also want to save service because you know even service isn't there anymore you You know, you can go and you can go in some of these department stores or you can go in some of these high street retailers.

45:04And I can understand why people are online and doing their orders. So, you know, we've got to get that back to him. Very good point. And I was chatting to Ray Kelvin, former founder of Ted Baker. He used to have like hundreds and hundreds, well, I think nearly a thousand stores worldwide at one point as well, talking about that very subject because he's invested in Bournemouth into a couple of businesses like he has the Hilton site and he has the former Echo building that he's turned into a co-working space and a coffee shop and stuff. So yeah, it's an argument that won't go away. Really appreciate your time.

45:46It's a really fascinating story. I think our audience is going to find your story very interesting as well. They've heard Rowena talk about starting the business And it's great to hear from someone like yourself who's grown, you know, the biggest store of a billion pound company. It's a story we've never had on the show before. So really appreciate your time and thank you for coming on today. Oh, thank you for having me, Alex. If this conversation resonated with you, don't just sit there, act on it. Make sure you follow or subscribe for more game changing conversations. And remember, the only thing standing between you and your business breakthrough is the decision to screw it and just do it.