Robert Hanna: I Didn’t Want The Wage To Be The Cage

14:40Robert Hanna:And I think a lot of people get excited about starting their business and realize, um, it's quite tough this. And it's like, well, yes, because you need to get the foundations. You need to have your strategy. You need to get good infrastructure. You need to get good people. You need to get processes. You need to get all of these things. And one thing I noticed very early on in the legal industry, and I know you have family that are in the legal industry as well, Alex, is it was behind. It was behind in terms of my competition legal recruiters of actually content and LinkedIn. They were using it in a very traditional format of just posting jobs.

15:11Robert Hanna:And for me, just starting in the industry, why is a top tier law firm who's been working with one of my competitors for 15 years, or why is one of these lawyers that's maybe done one or two career rues, really good relationship with another agency, going to pick me just because I'm putting out some job adverts and just sprinkling around on LinkedIn? They're not. What I need to do is I need to educate, inform, and build trust as the recruiter. So I started dabbling on LinkedIn. This is way back, Alex. This is way back. I'm talking about sort of when I say way back, I mean, I've been on the LinkedIn.

15:44Robert Hanna:I was the first legal creator to go on the LinkedIn accelerator program. I've helped them with LinkedIn product beta rollout testers for various things. I know you and I have done some collaborations and all of that good stuff used to host their sort of town hall for the audio feature and all of that good stuff. And I realized, actually, I need to get early. So this was like 2017, 2017 ish. I was there just sort of putting things out there and testing and I was getting responses and I was getting responses from from lawyers and I wasn't talking about hey um can I can I recruit for you and I just saw actually this is the recruiter educating informing building audience building attention and I thought oh maybe I could do something with this and then obviously from snowballing that I thought I needed a vehicle and then obviously through the vehicle was was the podcast which we might talk about and that snowball but I think the the key message that I I tried to get across to people is if you're going into an industry look at what your competitors are doing and maybe what they're not doing and where can you get blue ocean opportunity or where can you get a chance to get ahead of them because they're probably doing more traditional methods of marketing or talking to their clients and actually there might be a newer faster smarter way particularly with AI out there now and so that really helped me cut through as well as partnering with someone who had some established networks it was a really quick way to start getting up the ladder and getting noticed and getting the dream clients and the ideal clients I wanted to work for me far quicker

17:04Alex Chisnall:It leads into my next question very well. So what was the biggest risk you thought you were making at the start? And what do you realize now that you are actually risking by not doing it sooner, if that makes sense?

17:17Robert Hanna:I think the biggest risk at the time was starting my podcast, I think, because in the industry that I'm in, it's very, very competitive in the legal recruiting. And I mean that there's lots of competitors, it's fast paced, there's, you know, you need to be on it, you need to be out there, you need to be active, you need to be networking. So any time away from not being completely close to your clients or talking to your candidates, you're potentially leaving money on the table. however I saw and I know you saw this Alex hence all the work you've done in the podcast thing through through researching again thinking of that blue ocean opportunity from starting on LinkedIn I saw podcasts and I saw this as a new medium and I thought actually this could be a great way for me to do business development and actually a great way for me to build a personal brand because I started researching and learning about that and obviously through likes of clubhouse and meeting people etc etc you get in get into that and so I thought the biggest risk here is I'm going to invest a lot of time, energy, and effort in starting this podcast, which is time away from the core business.

18:19Robert Hanna:But I strongly believe that this would eventually, to start with, to start as a business development tool, to get higher ticket, better quality clients and candidates wanting to come to me so I can invite them on. Rather than saying to a law firm partner, hi, you've never heard of me. I know absolutely no one and don't know anything. Can I recruit for you? a much better proposition is to say, hey, and this is way back in 2018 when podcasts were new, exciting. Some people didn't even know what is a podcast. And you could write to them and be like, look, I've researched your law firm and I've seen your current articles produced by your marketing team.

18:55Robert Hanna:I think they're good. I think there's a new form of medium actually that we could do that could help you tell your story, which should help you with regards to actually attracting talent. And in terms of new quality articles that create potentially 10 blog posts for your marketing team to produce for you. And I'd love to invite you to my office to, at the time we'd do them in my office. We'd make them coffee. We'd make them tea. We'd give them a really good experience. And yeah, you know, it's a great way to start the relationship and we'd talk about their career journey and we'd do a good job.

19:22Robert Hanna:And then off the back of it, they would actually say, oh, hey, we noticed you've got a legal recruiting business. And so you've immediately started something. You've given the value out. Obviously you give them high quality assets for them to distribute. It's new, it's novel, it's interesting, it's exciting. And so I found that as a really good way to get into the industry because nobody else was doing it we were the first legal recruiting focused business to start a podcast and it was been super powerful off the back of it so the risk was absolutely the time lost investing in this and putting energy and effort and researching it even down to the names and kits and people because way back then there wasn't as many resources out there about starting a podcast and i know you've done you know it could be a bit of a minefield and so we needed to do a lot of that prep work but i'm so grateful that we did because to where we are today as sort of, you know, top show and legal and, you know, one of the world's best sponsors and everything we've done with it, it was absolutely a bet well paid off.

20:14Robert Hanna:But at the time it was a risk because we were worried about how we're going to keep this, the lights on and keeping the other side of the business, which had been the main revenue generator going. And so that's really important. Sometimes the more risky, I know Simon Squibb says this, you know, it's not about hard work. It's the more risk you take, right? The luckier you get. And I absolutely agree with that.

20:31Alex Chisnall:I agree with that. And those watching on YouTube and Spotify can see the name of your podcast. Yes. Speaking podcast.

20:38Robert Hanna:Yeah. You can't tell that I'm shamelessly always promoting my show. Can you Alex?

20:42Alex Chisnall:I need to get, I need to get new merch. I need to get new merch. I had merch. I need to get new merch with a new logo. Um, so you, you talk a lot about community. What do you think community means in business terms outside of, you know, Instagram comments, LinkedIn comments, downloads, et cetera.

21:00Robert Hanna:I think it makes for me, community is people feel seen, heard and valued and safe places and exciting places. So within my legal community, and I've been building this for the last decade, everyone within the community where we house discussions, whether it's a WhatsApp group, whether it's the Discord, whether it's a group or a forum, people feel safe. They feel like they're heard if they've got a problem or they're looking for information or they're looking for a contact. They feel like they belong and they feel like they can get access to the information and they get excited about the things they do and they support you and people support you back.

21:40That for me is the overarching sign of a really good community.

21:44Robert Hanna:And off the back of that, and people are like, isn't this business? Yes. Greater quality referrals because people remember how you treated them. You're not necessarily just what you did for them. Then you get greater opportunities because your community grows. You get more brands tuning in on you. So many things come off the back of it. if you build a powerful community, then you can monetize because the community is valuable enough, then you could do a subscription focused model and get that recurring revenue going. So absolutely, I think for me, it's community is making people feel seen, valued and heard within that specific niche of the community you're looking for.

22:16Robert Hanna:That's what I think I always try to do and not just treat people as a number or a follower, because there's a difference, isn't there, between audience and community.

22:23Alex Chisnall:And at what point did you realize that the audience wasn't just listening, but they trusted you and and how did that trust start showing up commercially like you mentioned cleo biggest player in your space unicorn a few times over uh approaching you for sponsorship etc so yeah talk us through that because i think people find that interesting i think it's social

22:44Robert Hanna:listening feedback we're getting feedback from people i was getting nice nice comments saying rob um and again this is the power of the lurkers particularly i know i'm leaning into linkedin but linkedin has transformed my life it's been a phenomenal platform that has got me as you say some of the biggest deals within our space, people were writing me saying, Rob, that episode with so and so really inspired me. I was actually at that same journey where I couldn't get a training contract or I couldn't do this. And hearing that story of that Ibiza DJ that now is a top managing partners really helped and supported me.

23:13Robert Hanna:I really feel like that was talking to me. And I was getting lots of those. And I suddenly started realizing, wow, people are taking notice. People are really finding this valuable. And I was like, how can we 10X that? How can we really enhance this to go even more value add to the community and all the other things that we've been doing in terms of taking it on the road and creative events and all these other things have spiraled from it. But I think originally it was just actually social listening and getting feedback and hearing from people and suggestions for things that you could improve, right?

23:44Robert Hanna:Again, seen, heard, and value. If someone suggests something and you just flat out refuse it, I'll give you an example. We, um, I had a dedicated listener. I didn't know I'd been listening to the show. They said they sent me a message probably two years ago and I acted on it just a year ago. They said, Rob, we have an icebreaker question, which is linked to the TV show suits on the scale of one to 10, how people think how real it is. And we'd asked it for every guest and we're currently in our season 10. And they said, Rob, it's time to change the suits question. It's boring. It's been done. And to be honest with you, some people haven't seen the show.

24:15Robert Hanna:Others have. I know you wanted the legal link and the Harvey Specter thing and everything else. But actually, I think we should break it up to asking what their favorite beverage is and what their favorite footwear is on a typical workday, because that will tell me more about the way they handle stress and pressures through the drinks that they do through the day, how they go about their lawyering, the types of ways they like to show up. And actually, they gave me a whole, I mean, that was just high level. They gave me a whole reason why this would be a good and specific to my audience, better icebreaker questions to start the show.

24:45Robert Hanna:And we said, thank you so much. We absolutely agree. We're going to do season 10. We're going to include these. And everyone has enjoyed them ever since. So that's just a simple example of social listening. And it made people feel seen, heard, and valued. And they did a whole big post about it and shouted about it. And yeah, I just think it's really important sometimes if you've got people in your community that you actually take action on some of their ideas if you agree with them. And yeah, I just thought that was a really nice thing to do. I didn't know you'd stop doing that, by the way. Yeah, no, exactly.

25:10Robert Hanna:Because obviously we've worked together before in the past and we used to do that. but it was as of start of season 10. So we did it for nearly 460 episodes, but time for change. And that was a big decision, but actually we reflected on it and we looked at it and we thought a lot of people had said they hadn't seen it or I'd give it zero. And we're just getting wishy-washy answers. And actually we wanted to get into people thinking a little bit more and yeah, we found it helped.

25:34Alex Chisnall:No, that's cool. And what mistakes do you think founders make when they try to build a community, but really just end up broadcasting more content?

25:43Robert Hanna:I think they forget what their topic of influence is. So for me, my topic of influence and what people come for me for is around legal careers information. Okay. Which some of your listeners might start now falling asleep, but if that does excite them. So what I mean by that is, is we're going to start a community. It's like, what is it your, if people are typing into Google or chat GPT or one of these platforms, what are the one or two words are the pain point that you're trying to relieve for your end audience. And with that, stay true to that. So everything that I do is very specific to legal careers, future of law.

26:23Robert Hanna:And we've cut across different things as a result of that, you know, mental health within the law, diversity, inclusion within the law, various different facets. But we, to keep the community, where founders go wrong is I think they just think, right, I'm just going to chuck this out, like you say, and see what sticks. It's like, no, really think hard about what is the main pain point with the audience that you're trying to talk to and make sure that you're very, very, very tailored in that messaging. I found that's what's been able to give us longevity because people start podcasts, as you know, they stop, people start communities and they stop, they start forums and they stop where actually, if you've got a good understanding of like what your topic of influence is, why you're showing up, why you want to do it, why people should care, then you can be very strategic and you can get good longevity off the back of it.

27:07Robert Hanna:So I think a lot of founders just chuck stuff out that without real strategic thinking, understanding what is that topic of influence and how can I double down on it?

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28:03Robert Hanna:Now back to the podcast.

28:05Alex Chisnall:Do you know what? I'm one of the biggest guilty practitioners of that. And I'll tell you why. And you can give this advice. And obviously, I've been in the podcast space for nine and a decade. And some of the advice I give people is be careful when you're doing the intros before you know it. It all becomes about the host, not about the guest, all these kinds of things. And another one of those was around exactly what you're talking about, the topic and the intent behind the topic and the people you're speaking to. And I don't know, in my mind, I just thought, yeah, I've spoken to now about 500 entrepreneurs and business owners.

28:44Alex Chisnall:Let's just roll out the idea behind Screw It, Just Do It, and let's speak to people in the sport, music space, anyone who kind of embodies that Screw It, Just Do It attitude. but I hadn't really drilled down on what screwing it and just doing it actually meant, even though the podcast had been going, this was like back to 2023. You know, we had an audience that would have filled Manchester United, would have filled Old Trafford. You know, tens and tens and tens and tens.

29:13Robert Hanna:Other football teams are available, Liverpool fans.

29:16Alex Chisnall:Especially being a Liverpool supporter. I'm just thinking of the biggest stadium. But yeah, that's falling apart. But anyway, we won't go there. And before I know it, I'm interviewing the silver medalist from BMX, silver medalist from canoeing, all these rugby legends and all the rest of it. And I was loving it, right? I was really enjoying it. But the audience voted, the community voted for it with their ears and their eyes. And it literally, like when I say plummeted, unbelievable. unbelievable and and especially another thing in business right and and podcast if you don't keep your eyes on the numbers if you don't keep your finger on the pulse right you you don't actually know what's happening in the business i didn't realize till months later that that was happening i was busy out there you know rocking up to george cruz's house you know the former england rugby international andy goose you know saracen's full but having these great conversations um meanwhile not not checking the numbers not listening to the feedback from the audience and um it absolutely plummeted.

30:21Alex Chisnall:So, you know, this kind of reinvention of the podcast now and having, you know, world first come on board as a sponsor, as a partner has really refocused my attention on who is this podcast for. It's for people who are looking to start, grow and scale their businesses, right? And what struggles, what challenges do they have that we can provide the answers to? But before that, it had just gotten so broad. And you're right, so many people do this. And I never thought I'd be one of those people. But before you know it, maybe there's a bit of ego in there as well. You can kind of think you can do what you want, right?

31:01Alex Chisnall:Because you've built a pretty successful show, really. No, it's not Joe Rogan or Dara's CEO, but it's still pretty successful, especially from an audio perspective. And you've kind of lost the raison d 'etre while you started the thing in the first place, right?

31:16Robert Hanna:A hundred percent. And interesting fact, Andy Goode went to my school. No way. Another connection. Yeah, absolutely. But maybe this talks a lot about I'm very intentional and very strategic when it comes to things. And when we were looking at, well, when we got approached about sponsoring, so our tagline is inspiring legal minds, transforming legal futures. And when we were starting to get approaches, we wanted to have an organization that really understood that and understood that we want to transform legal careers because things are going to change. The way my late grandfather ran his practice of law, paper heavy, documents, bundles, files, very manual, fax machines, you name it.

31:57Robert Hanna:Nothing near that now in a modern, what will be a future law firm. So our current sponsor, maybe we'll talk about, their mission is to transform the legal experience for all. And when you reflect on that, you think that is huge. to transfer that basically is everything and everyone because at no point in anyone's life will you not go through interacting with a legal professional in some capacity and so you look at that and you think hmm okay well then they became you know the first ever centaur then they did the world's biggest just last year billion dollar acquisition of a legal um organization then they got their five billion dollar valuation and the series f 500 million raised and you think they're still just getting started.

32:40Robert Hanna:And you think there's a real partnership here because we're trying to double down on transforming people's futures, their careers, and what's going on. And we're partnering with a technology company that is basically the, I describe it as the engine of the car and everything, everyone collaborates and they collaborate around them, but nothing works without the engine, right? You can have the best spoiler, you can have the nicest tires, you can have the best steering wheel, gearbox, none of that's going anywhere without this engine driving it. And so I see us as a beautiful partnership with great synergies delivering on that topic of influence and 10Xing it.

33:12Robert Hanna:And again, I think a lot of people fall foul of that, particularly with shows, you know, because we get approaches all the time now about, hey, we sell burgers, we'd love to advertise on your show. It's like, it's not right for us, right? You know, if we're more lifestyle or whatever, maybe, but we're very, very lasered in. And I think people underestimate the power of a really high quality engaged niche audience. Because you're right, We're not Joe Rogan. We're not going to get that mass appeal because we're focused on the in. But actually, if you've got the right people who are listening and tuning in, that is super, super powerful.

33:44Robert Hanna:And I think it's still underestimated the value of that.

33:47Alex Chisnall:Yeah. And do you know what was interesting, actually, having the conversations with World First is that they actually went to Diver CEO and asked to sponsor that show. And then they're like, actually, when we actually did the research and got the information back as to who their audience was, it's like their audience is everyone now. We don't want to appeal to everybody. That's not our audience. That is so the opposite of what they want to do. It is, you know, SMEs, you know, small business owners who were looking to start growing their business. So yes, those people listen to Diro Veseo, but equally you've got people who spend their weekends watching Love Island and then Diro Veseo just happens to be some celebrity that happens to be on there, right?

34:31Alex Chisnall:That he's morphed the podcast. He's done it successfully, right? He's broadened it, which I try to do. But, you know, he's gone after huge names.

34:40Robert Hanna:Yeah. Yeah, and look, I think you and I know one of the key metrics in podcasting is that listening time. Because a lot of people will be catching clips and algorithms, will be feeding them Diary of CEO and TikTok and et cetera, et cetera. But the reason we've been able to retain big ticket brands and do big ticket things is because whilst our audience may be this size versus necessarily that size, the quality of that audience listening end to end is significantly above industry average, like you and I know. And so if you've got X number of people listening pretty much throughout that episode, then brands and people are going to think, well, my mid role is going to get hit.

35:20Robert Hanna:People are going to listen to my mid role. My end role is going to get hit. They clearly like the content because what's being said. So it's good, good, good brand association. You know, they're probably going to refer the show out. You know, there's so many like multiple things that start, you know, thinking about. And so that for me has always been a key metric that we've looked at in terms of, and again, seen, heard and valued because can everyone, if you go for everything, feel seen, heard and valued if you're building a niche community? Maybe, maybe not. If you have enough resources to, absolutely.

35:48Robert Hanna:But I think if you're, you know, in a space like legal or accounting or insurance, I feel like you can definitely grow and grow pretty big, but stay true to what your audience genuinely, genuinely wants.

36:00Alex Chisnall:Great. and that's clear we've been talking about obviously when we're talking about your sponsor yeah so moving moving things a little bit further on you've essentially made yourself the front door of your business right is if you're watching this you'll see exactly what I'm talking about was that intentional or did it evolve like naturally did you come out with that idea from the very get-go or is it just evolved over time mate it's evolved over time it seems so

36:29Robert Hanna:obvious. Yeah, exactly. But at the time it hadn't, I really, as I say, I was looking into the personal branding stuff. I was, you know, I was dabbling on LinkedIn and then I can categorically say building this personal brand has transformed my life, my businesses, the opportunities. I mean, we've, you know, I've done stuff with Sky Sports, Netflix, I've traveled the world, you know, we're doing stuff on yachts in Dubai. We're going to Ibiza, you know, I'm doing big ticket recruiting deals with some of the biggest partners in the world that have been seeing what I've been doing. And that's all because I've been putting myself out there and getting in the right spaces and places.

37:04Robert Hanna:However, people are like, that's all well and good. How did you start? So I'll give one strategy for how I started. And I'm all about audience jacking, right? I think it's so underrated. So when we started the podcast, again, this is a tip for people if you're trying to build a brand. I think a podcast is a great personal branding tool. It's a great vehicle. And I always talk about the importance of having content vehicles that can keep you to be consistent and also accountable. I didn't just want any guests. I wanted guests where I knew we could grow quickly. Similar to the points I was talking about when I started my business, when I was looking for a partner who had contacts, networks, distribution, so I can shortcut things.

37:38Robert Hanna:I went to the, again, your listeners might fall asleep, the London Young Lawyers Group, right? Which is a community, a micro community of about 10 ,000 lawyers, okay? Which are nought years qualified to seven years qualified, which just so happens to be the sweet spot for my legal recruiting business where we recruit. So I had got friendly with the co-presidents at the time of the London Lawyers Group, and they were our first ever guests on the show. And why did I invite them on? I wanted to give them a great experience, but what are they going to do? They're going to send it to their newsletter of 10 ,000 people.

38:11Robert Hanna:They're going to send it to their community. They're going to tell their next events about what's happened. And so really I was strategic in terms of using groups, societies, and organizations for super fast, quick growth. And that helped me grow my podcast and as an extension, my personal brand. So collaboration is domination. I really believe if you find groups, organizations, societies within your market and go out and partner with them, it's a super great way to get noticed. And then suddenly those 10 ,000 people had never heard of League's Bean podcast or Rob Hanna have heard of the League's Bean podcast and Rob Hanna.

38:41Robert Hanna:And as a result of that, people write to me with opportunities and it starts building momentum. It's like that flywheel effect. People have read the book Good to Great by Jim Collins, which is, you know, it's all about building momentum. It's just those little energy inputs and suddenly things start turning, getting quicker, faster, smarter, more efficient, et cetera, et cetera. So, yeah, I think that's one of the best things that I did when I thought earlier about actually personal branding and getting distribution faster and smarter.

39:07Alex Chisnall:Yeah, interesting, you know, and it's a good point to bring out partnerships. What did you say about domination? What was the phrase you used? Collaboration is domination. I think it's so true. A conversation I was having last night with James Ashton, founder of Festival Entrepreneurs, which you spoke at last October and which we're going again, doubling down this November. But one of the things that we're doing this year, which we wanted to do in year one, but you know what it's like, you have your wish list and you run out of time and you don't do it all, but it's partnering with 25 to 50 different organizations who want to host an event within our event.

39:44Alex Chisnall:We've got the space. We're doubling the space. Would you like to come and host your own networking event? We will help you grow your community by coming to our community. You have all those amazing tours now when people are registering for tickets. You can see exactly who's signing up, who's coming, what kind of businesses they have, what sectors they're in, etc. So again, just popped into my head then, if you wanted to host something at our event, then you are more than welcome to do so. We've already signed up a bunch of people for that. Just literally had a great call with, I mentioned him again, Simon Squibb's team and the Help Bank guys.

40:24Alex Chisnall:They came along and they had their mobile pitch your dream there. And they said that our event was the most successful event that they attended. And they attended everything from Ideas Fest to the billion dollar follower summit in Dubai. And they said they collected more people pitching their dreams at our event, which is nuts, really. We were a startup event, right? So they want to quadruple down on what they want to do this year at our event. So I just thought of you again, put that in your brain. And if you want to do something, you're more than welcome, mate.

40:59Robert Hanna:But I'm not surprised by that because I thought the inaugural Festival of Entrepreneurs was brilliant. I thought the setup, the format, the quality of the speakers. And I mean, I've had business things, courtside conversations, you know, the Dubai thing that we were ideating. And my co-founder, we were doing it on the ground in Festival of Entrepreneurs. We'd met before, but we arranged to meet at Festival of Entrepreneurs to really flush out that idea. So, you know, I've now got another business initiative off the back of it. I've also got, you know, Rui Samuel, who's a good guy that, you know, was on the panel for, who's great with Connected.

41:29Robert Hanna:You know, he's one of his investors is in my legal space that we know super well. And there's probably collaborations that will happen. I think that it's not my phrase, but I love the phrase, we is greater than me. And I think it's so true. Like you saying there, you know, we're going to provide this forum, but your community can grow with us, you know, go as you grow. And I think it's really, really important. And yeah, absolutely. I'd love to do something like that within Festival Entrepreneurs. I think it's a brilliant event.

41:50Alex Chisnall:I know you were busy anyway, let alone doing something else at the event. You were busy at the event for two days, which massively. Yeah, absolutely. Something I just thought I was already mentioned paddle was, and I never got right, again, never got around to doing it at the time. But Juliet Barrett from Grenade, who literally lives, you know, a stone's throw from, she has her own, you know, when they exited Grenade, one of the things she does was, you know, buy her forever home and build a pink paddle court in her garden. and she invited me to go and play there and we never got around. It was along with the absolute collagen founders, you know, great, great business and never got around to doing it.

42:26Alex Chisnall:You know, everything else got in the way, but I thought we could do something around that this time if we actually think about it and plan it in advance.

42:33Robert Hanna:I'll bring the DJs and the whole other stuff down. I'll be down for that. That'll be good for them. I'm paddle obsessed.

42:40Alex Chisnall:Yeah, yeah, same. I'm addicted to it, mate. Trying to find a call.

42:44Robert Hanna:Rankings three, if anyone knows what that means. Yours is. Yeah.

42:47Alex Chisnall:Same. Yeah. 3.2, something like that, I think. Very good.

42:52Robert Hanna:Oh, yeah. Very good. Okay.

42:53Alex Chisnall:Okay. We sure have the game, mate. We sure have the game. What was I going to say? Yeah, look, a lot of founders still hide behind the company logo. Why do you think that is in this day and age? Is that just the dinosaurs? Because chatting to somebody at my running club, and they were looking to get into the personal branding space. They work with a massive brand. and I was like, I still think there's massive opportunity. I was saying to her, I'm more than happy to sit, you know, again, go for a coffee, go for lunch and kind of brainstorm it for you. Because there are just so many people out there who, I don't know if they've heard about it, but maybe they don't get it.

43:30Alex Chisnall:Maybe, I think more than that, it's probably fear again, like with us starting podcasts. You know, I recorded mine in the January, took me till the May to release it. And I've worked with people who take two years to release their podcasts from recording it, right? So yeah, what are your thoughts on that? Because I think there's still massive opportunity out there to help those kind of business owners who aren't doing anything like this. Yeah, I think echoing what you said,

43:53Robert Hanna:I think it's confidence and fear. You need to face everything in Rise, don't you? It's the way you need to approach fear. If you look at most big organizations, you look at their front person. For myself, you look at my audience, it's significantly bigger than necessarily my company audience. and there's so much power and you look at the data in it that the person because we we're in this you know not b2c b2b world we're in this h2h human to human connected world now where people you know piers linney our mutual friend obviously from dragon's den talks very openly about you know technology and you know technology is coming in in all of these industries you know legal specifically accounting insurance you know medicine you you name it and you as a service provider because, for example, paralegals, you know, a lot of that work can be done by AI.

44:40Robert Hanna:And so you suddenly start thinking you need to get ahead of this technology that's coming in with judgment strategy and brand or whatever. And so it's really, really important, particularly in this revolution that we're going through of new ways of technology, that you stay ahead of it. And I think having that brand, putting yourself out there is so important. But I think people have fear of being judged. They're feared about, well, what if it doesn't go right? fear about what are my clients going to think or what are my prospective clients going to think back to the whole point of the risk you know when i set up my legal podcast i mean the judgment i had the the comments i had from people because bear in mind i was literally you know it was just me with a mic and whilst we were strategic about who we invited we had no profile or presence you know it was a big like what are you doing you know it's you know really this is useful time when we could be just getting sales calls and converting people, you know, because again, you need to skate to, you know, the way in Gretzky, you need to skate to where the puck is going, right?

45:38Robert Hanna:And personal brand still is the most important thing along with community, in my very humble opinion, that you should be doubling down on if you're an entrepreneur founder or someone looking to be successful and have longevity. Because technology is still, this wavering is still very much in an infancy stage. It's going to get infinitely better, faster than you can develop. So the best way that you can stay relevant is enhancing your community and enhancing your brand. So you still get access to the right people, the right people are coming to you and you become, I heard this on my own podcast.

46:09Robert Hanna:It's like, Rob, you're no longer a chaser, you're a magnet. And it's true, you know, in nicest way, we still need to work hard and definitely don't rest on our laurels, but we're the number one podcast in the world for law. You know, in six and a half thousand cities, we have the number one, you know,$5 billion sponsor. We've done some of the most amazing things, taking the show around the world. We've been at your, you know, And suddenly the inquiries, the quality of the, you know, the becoming a magnet through that personal round rather than a continual chaser. That's the goal. That's when you get to that level, you know that, you know, it's, it's, it's really working, but you still have to put in the work each day.

46:42Robert Hanna:You know, each day we're finding creative different things and ways to do, but highly agree. Try and get over yourself. You know, the comfort zone is great as we know, but nothing ever grows there. Get yourself out of there, get yourself. And the best quote I've heard actually. And it just really landed for me. And this is someone, if they're sat there, the magic you're looking for is in the work you're avoiding. If you just like that, you know, so many things that, and I need to take my own advice on that, on certain things as well for areas that I want to grow and develop. If I just get over it, you know, that magic is there and that building your personal brand.

47:12Robert Hanna:I've, I've also not spoke to anyone who said I invested a load of time and engine effort in my personal brand and I've, I've regretted it or it's been a waste of my time.

47:20Alex Chisnall:Yeah, no, there's a lot of, um, a lot of wisdom in what you said there. I can't believe, I never thought you'd get an ice hockey reference into this conversation. I never saw that one. I'll take it. Yeah, absolutely.

47:32Robert Hanna:Diverse thoughts.

47:33Alex Chisnall:Yeah. Um, and, and about being a magnet, uh, again, I, I've always preached that for people, you know, starting podcasts, start, starting businesses as well as when you get to that stage where you're turning people away, be that guests. And that's, I was probably like with you, get literally hammered every day with like 10, 11, 12. And something happened last year, and we still haven't done it yet, but I'm hoping to do it soon, was that I still make sure that I read all of them because one of them was from Tej Lalvani, who had just come off Dragon's Den and was asking to come on the show. And he might have said, you know, I've been a fan of his show for years and that could have been complete fluff.

48:12Alex Chisnall:I don't care. But the fact that you're attracting that caliber of guests made me think, yes, okay, I'll get 10, 12 of these pitches a day from agencies all over the world now. And I'm lucky if I pick one of those a year. But bizarrely, I think this month there might be two people alone in January that have approached me. And it's that magnet thing, right, without a doubt. Right. And as I say, we're now seeing businesses sold or they're acquiring audiences, right? They're acquiring IP. The media is baked into the valuation ultimately. How would you see that? You're open to being acquired, right?

48:57Alex Chisnall:500 plus episodes in, et cetera. Massive reach within your niche, et cetera. How do you think in your mind, how would that work with you as the host and what you would want to do in the future? because you obviously love what you do, would you continue working on that? Would it be like, and it's interesting, right? We're at the very threshold of this, at the forefront of this right now. It's just started happening from what I've seen. I haven't seen much of it happen pre-2025. But very similar to a business, I suppose. You have that kind of golden handcuffs exit, and you're still in the business for X amount of years, and you get your own out.

49:37Alex Chisnall:I don't know. How do you see it, given that you're in the legal field as well? You know far more about it than I do.

49:44Robert Hanna:Well, firstly, I think I've got friends that go on Good Morning Britain, ITV News, and they're complaining. They're like, it's great they'll go on TV, but I want to get more distribution. The people are on social media. The people are on, you know, the mass distribution is with that. So I think at the moment, people buying and acquiring podcasts is still relatively new. I think in the coming years, it'll be quite simple. because you think about TV stations or things that are acquired or rebranded or repackaged. I think it's going to be people are going to want those audiences because they've seen actually that they're trusted.

50:18Robert Hanna:You know, they think if they've done things connected to the show where they prove people turn up, be it for events or, you know, they're buying the merchandise or they're believing in the quality of the courses, whatever, whatever, whatever. But I think for simplicity, of course, there'd probably have to be a phase out or there'd be a co-host or there'd be an element to that where you would, you know, I'd still want to probably, you know, certainly if it's a brand that's connected to your name, you'd want to make sure A, that there's value alignment, you know, of course, you know, the financial incentive is financial incentive, but actually for me, you know, my late grandfather always used to say, Rob, it's very hard to be successful.

50:51Robert Hanna:It's far harder to stay successful, live respected, die regretted. You know, I'd want to make sure that if something was acquired, that still like the values and the messaging is linked to what we genuinely set out to do, maybe with some fine tweaking and movement. But I think it would probably start as a sort of phase out over a year or two as sort of co-host and then sort of gently moving out. But that's the point about the asset of trademarking the Legally Speaking podcast. It's not the Rob Hanna show. Yes, I have my personal brand and yes, I have my networks. But with the right strategy, that can be funneled into a new house, a new audience where still those people can be marketed to under the Legally Speaking podcast umbrella.

51:28Robert Hanna:So that's how I would see it happening.

51:29Alex Chisnall:So your podcast is sponsored by Clio, one of the biggest players in legal tech, if not the biggest player in legal tech. What does that signal to the market about authority and positioning?

51:39Robert Hanna:Everything. It changes the game. But what is important, of course, now they are the world's largest. And this is where research, I get so many people to write to me and be like, Rob, how have you been able to run the podcast for so many years? How have you had many guests? How have you been able to acquire Clio? I did my research because Clio were not as big as they are now when we first started the partnership. But I saw what they'd done before. I saw that they were a unicorn. I saw that they were a sensor. I saw what the CEO was doing. I understood what their mission transformed the legal experience for all.

52:09Robert Hanna:You know, I knew they were going to go in different directions. I saw growth. And so my advice is, yes, you may have a sports show and you want Nike or Adidas straight off the bat. But what's that emerging brand or what's that challenger brand that might be looking to try and get some distribution and some audience? Because what value can you bring tonight? Maybe you can. Maybe you've got a huge audience already. But if you're a growing show, we're getting more on that growth. What are some of the organizations that are looking to grow and acquire? Or what's the strategy? So mine was a geography play, right?

52:37Robert Hanna:So Clio, we're looking for distribution in the UK market. They're huge in the US and Canada. Obviously, a large part of my audience is in UK and Ireland. We know that because we look at the data, the downloads, statistics, etc. So the partnership and the value add to them is let's wrap around an influencer and a show that's got growth and distribution in a market area where we don't have much publicity and voice at the moment with a key person of influence that's been a LinkedIn top voice, who's done all these great stuff, done all these collaborations, etc, etc. So think about, if you're thinking about your ideal dream sponsor or brand collaborations, where can you be that value add?

53:11Robert Hanna:Where can you deliver for them on terms of their mission? because I think if you can connect with them, you stand a greater chance. And think about those where we're on a journey and go on the journey together. And that's exactly what we've done. And we've gone on a journey together. It's a partnership. And there's so many cool things. You know, I've emceed for events for them at the likes of BAFTA 195 Piccadilly where Notting Hill was filmed, where, you know, it was awesome. We've done so many amazing, incredible things. And so I think that is a really key piece of advice I'd give to people in terms of, can you be a geography extension for them?

53:41Robert Hanna:Can you be a profile extension for them? Can you help them deliver on their mission, something they're not getting? And could you maybe be part of that journey?

53:49Alex Chisnall:Funnily enough, that's the conversation with World First about UK, excess size of the UK market, et cetera. And I think 79 % of my audience, I mean, there are shows in over 160 countries, but 79 % of the audience is UK. Okay, question. If somebody wanted to sell their business in typically three to five years, who's listening now, how should they be thinking about content today, right now, 2026?

54:16Robert Hanna:It needs to come down to, not to repeat what I've already said, but I think it needs to be valuable enough for the people that are consuming that content. So for me, in legal, the content we are producing is around future of law, the changes in technologies, who are the main players that are disrupting the industry? Who are those CEOs? So the quality of the content is coming from the minds of those that are shaping the future of what you're going to be working in. And I think if you can do that, your content becomes super valuable. Whereas I see the issue with certain things is content isn't ever green enough, or it's actually goes out of date.

54:58Robert Hanna:You know, you've seen this, Alex, time and time again. You know, if we were to go and look at content now from 20 years ago, Maybe some of the principles might be relevant, but the reality is it's probably not going to be that helpful. So I would always be thinking about content in terms of how is it going to be relevant? Because these growth, you know, I'm also an investor in a legal tech company and a recruitment tech company and some other businesses. And it's all about looking forwards, like what's the trends, what's going. You know, you're looking forwards all the time, like what's happening and what's going on.

55:30Robert Hanna:So if you're looking at that next five years, I wouldn't be talking now about Agentec AI because that's going to be table stakes. you know, like five years time from, you know, where we are today. And think about like, what are the people in that community who are consuming that content going to find super valuable to them, be it from the, I'm obviously a recruiter and a careers guy, right? So I come from that careers guy, but maybe it's entrepreneurship, whatever it might be, because that is going to be hyper valuable. And if you find a system of making that continuous, then I think you're onto a winner.

55:57Robert Hanna:If you're starting again today, what would you not do with content? I mean, look, I've made lots of mistakes, right? You know, along the way through, you know, little things. And I think it may have been your advice back in the day. You know, when we first started our podcast, we would put like episode one in the headline title and realize that that's lost digital real estate because people aren't searching episode one back then. Makes so much sense looking back, doesn't it? You know, you make, so I think it would just not understand the basics. If I was not making content, I would speak to people that are ahead of me.

56:28Robert Hanna:So if I was to start to a podcast today, I'd reach out to an Alex Chisnell and say, you know, find a creative way, you know, and, and find 20 minutes of your time. Be like, look, I'm looking at getting into starting a podcast. It's going to be my main content vehicle. One of the top 10 lessons, um, you know, you, you can give me and you might be like, go and listen to this podcast. Cause I was there at that. But the, I would probably make sure that I know the fundamental basics that, you know, and speak to key people of influence. Cause I didn't do that when I first started and I made mistakes.

56:56Robert Hanna:and yes of course you learn and evolve but if i was doing content now and by the way ai is great for that you know you can be using a lot of these tools to get ideas suggestions and stress test it and act as your coach and your mentor and i'm an advocate for that as well but also go and speak to people in the doing the doing like keep the human in the loop and have good people it's probably what i would i would do and i would try to keep it as an authentic and relevant to

57:17Alex Chisnall:your audience as possible and not chase everything exactly you know one of the things that i've done And I think it's important to review regularly rather, you know, especially giving my example of, you know, the audience dropping and not having your finger on the pulse with regards to who your audience is and what are they doing, what they're responding to and not responding to. and one of the things that I've done recently by, you know, the turn of the year is taking stock, looking at it again, bringing this new amazing partner on board and look at it and go, actually, do I need to be putting out, you know, 53 pieces of content across every platform that's ever been invented?

57:55Alex Chisnall:No, you don't. You know, where are you getting the maximum bang for your buck? Like, you know, go back, recalibrate, pick two, you know, LinkedIn, Instagram, for example, and double down on that. Double down on the shorts on YouTube. All of this stuff, YouTube is making it so easy to automate everything over on that platform from thumbnails to shorts to community tabs, all of that now. Whereas you still look at Spotify is trying to do a fair amount in the podcast space, whereas Apple have just kind of stayed still and done absolutely nothing, which always amazes me for a company like Apple. But there you go.

58:33Robert Hanna:I think you make a good point, by the way, just on the, I think it's underestimated. It's people like a weekly show or content repurposing is big. You know, it's one thing that I think is horribly under, you know, if I was starting out again and I was going to, and you can do seasons, you know, you can package things. So it's like five episodes, tens episode, but the amount of content, like we, I could use this one episode for maybe a year's worth of drip feeding shorts. Right. And you know, I could repackage that repurpose that. And I think if I was starting out again, I didn't quite realize the power of content repurposing.

59:06Robert Hanna:Yes, you want to be chasing new content. And I'm sort of contradicting what I said earlier. But actually, if it's evergreen, valuable, educational or helpful content to your audience, I'd be repurposing it and recycling it and testing what works. And if something works, I'd recycle it and try it in a different format as well. And just keep testing, testing, testing, testing and grabbing that attention.

59:24Alex Chisnall:Yeah, because, yeah, we might have an interview, you know, today with, I don't know, Richard Branson, for example. Why wouldn't I be using that in a year's time, in two years' time, in three years' time? That kind of advice, as you say, is evergreen. My old boss. Right. Quick fire round to finish, my friend. Putting you on the spot. First answer that comes into your head, short and punchy. What is an entrepreneur?

59:53Robert Hanna:A problem solver on acid. I've never had that answer before.

59:59Alex Chisnall:You were on the stag due to Ibiza, clearly. Okay. Okay, next question. You've got to be insane.

1:00:03Robert Hanna:You've got to be insane to get on with it. But I think every day you're putting out problems and you've got to get on with it.

1:00:07Alex Chisnall:Okay, so then what follows next? What is a scale-up business? A scale-up business is something that is valuable. Okay, we'll take that. Why is the USA better at producing scale-ups and unicorn businesses than the UK? And you've got a different view than most of us because you've been partnered with your sponsor for many years, who's a unicorn.

1:00:26Robert Hanna:Well, yes, but actually, with one of the legal tech businesses I'm involved in, it's because they buy faster. They fail faster. So I've looked at the adoption, like we're selling voice AI agents and voice AI technology for law firms. And everyone in the US is buying, buying, buying, buying, buying, buying, buying. In the UK, let's think about it. We're not quite sure. There's that laggard mentality. So I would say US take higher risk, buy faster. And if it doesn't work, they change it. So I think their appetite for taking and actually moving with trends is far greater.

1:00:58Alex Chisnall:Yeah, good answer. So with that regard, what does this country need to do to produce more startups and scale-ups? That's a whole podcast in itself.

1:01:08Robert Hanna:Let's not get on to tax politics and everything else.

1:01:13Robert Hanna:Give better opportunity, give better support to entrepreneurs, budding entrepreneurs that gives them a chance and gives them a reason to stay here and not go to Dubai, Singapore, Milan, etc etc

1:01:23Alex Chisnall:Looking forward to Festival of Entrepreneurs 2026 November the 3rd and 4th at the NEC in Birmingham what can entrepreneurs look forward to when hearing you at the event? Silence I think they could

1:01:37Robert Hanna:I think authentic entrepreneurial lessons and how I've been able to create one of the largest niche communities within a professional service environment and attract some of the biggest names and do some of the biggest deals in the world

1:01:52Alex Chisnall:He got going in the end, didn't you? God, silence to start with. Okay, last two. Which founder do you admire the most? And that can be historical or that can be someone no one's heard of that you've just cottoned on to recently.

1:02:05Robert Hanna:It's going to be someone's probably never heard of. It's the founder of the boutique business that I ultimately left and then set up my own organization. They are now, you know, mother of two, you know, so driven, so successful. one. They used to have this mentality and maybe it's some extreme for others, but they had a post box. So they would get on the train and they would go to the city of London where offices. And every time they walked past this red post box, it didn't matter if their world was falling apart. The building was on fire. She's shooting from a 10. And that meant that mentality, that mindset, when they came into the office every day was they were shooting from a 10.

1:02:45Robert Hanna:And that's why they were a very successful entrepreneur. They were able to black out the noise. They were hyper-focused, they were driven, and they were successful off the back of it. So I admittedly have not been able to get to that level of performance. I want to get to that level of performance, but every day I woke up and I do something psychologically or I do my run, I'm trying to shoot from a 10. But that founder really for me was the pinnacle of we've got so many things going on in our lives and we're emotional beings, but when they went past that postbox, it didn't matter what was going on in their world, they are focused.

1:03:14Robert Hanna:I thought that was really, really good insight and it inspired me.

1:03:17Alex Chisnall:Well, and the postbox was red as well, right? So that clearly inspired you.

1:03:20Robert Hanna:Yeah, absolutely.

1:03:21Alex Chisnall:It's a power colour. Last question. Who, having been on the show and known the show for many years, who would you recommend as a great guest for the show?

1:03:31Robert Hanna:I would recommend... You can think about it and come back to me. Well, no, you were talking about the sports people and I was going to suggest my buddy, but then I was thinking about your core message in terms of the audience you look at. I was going to say Stuart Broad because he was a good buddy of mine and obviously tremendous cricketer, but also great determination, resilience, and also has also been a very successful, and Andy Goode and all, you can get some of our old school lot, but he's also been very entrepreneurial with, you know, a number of restaurant chains and pubs and things like that.

1:03:59Robert Hanna:Okay. Yeah. That sounds cool. Yeah. He would probably be someone I'd recommend.

1:04:03Alex Chisnall:Nice. Well, look, anything that we forgot to mention that you want to get in, we talked about your podcast, Legally Speaking Podcast. We talked about Clio, sponsor we talked about KC Partners your legal tech recruitment firm anything else you want to mention before we go you can find you everywhere so it's not difficult to find anything that Rob's involved with that you found of interest today but yeah anything you want to leave us with before

1:04:32Robert Hanna:we sign off I would just restress that quote of the magic you're looking for is in the work you're avoiding and it's important also to have fun you and I have been finding entrepreneurship is is brilliant, you know, but it's also very tough and you've got to make, find ways of having fun along the journey, particularly if you're at a startup stage or you're scaling up, it's important that you find the fun in what you do. And that's what's, you know, for me, coupled my passion for what I'm doing and, you know, the accountability of wanting to carry the family legacies carried me through, but make sure you have fun in what you do as well.

1:05:03Alex Chisnall:Amen. Rob Hanna, thank you very much indeed.

1:05:06Robert Hanna:Thanks for having me.

1:05:07Alex Chisnall:If this conversation resonated with you, don't just sit there, act on it. Make sure you follow or subscribe for more game-changing conversations. And remember, the only thing standing between you and your business breakthrough is the decision to screw it and just do it.