Scaling a Business Without Compromising Values with LUSH's Rowena Bird

0:00When we were first going to start again, we owned the building, 29 High Street, which is where our first shop is, which is like the home of Lush. and it's where a lot of the labs are as well now. We call them labs, but they're more like little kitchens. I used to do car boots, selling anything in the building that we didn't need, and we'd sell it in a car boot and then use the money to buy raw materials. If you're starting a business, surround yourself with different complementary skill sets, and that way you can all work together, and at different times, different ones of you are leading the way.

0:31I love what we do. So last year we reached the total of having given£100 million in charitable donations to small grassroots charities. The first time we decided we'd do a giving product, we thought if we did a million, if we raised a million, we'd be really pleased with ourselves. But last year we reached£100 million and that was all. Thank you. Given what you know now, when you look back and you join the dots, how have you scaled the business so effectively? What are some of the key learnings? I think the key thing I would say to people who want to build their own business is do it step by step.

1:11So you can go out and try and get big investment and go, but you don't know how to deal with it. So if you do it one shop at a time or one block at a time, whatever it is you're doing, at least you understand what you're doing and you can build it slowly and keep a knowledge of it. The minute it gets out of control, our biggest thing was we opened, we went from our 80 square metre shops to 400 square metre when we opened on Oxford Street and we had absolutely no idea how to run that. And that was such a challenge. We had to have four managers in it. It was over four floors. it was yeah you can see like five x'd it almost or ten x'd it yeah and that's one shop yeah so if you were doing your whole business yeah i don't know quite how you'd work so i always think doing it step by step not being tempted by yeah and it depends you know i spoke to somebody earlier and they started their business intentionally to sell it on yeah that's great we've always started our business intentionally to keep it as a family business so it's family members that are coming up now for the next generation I was gonna say because whenever we've talked over the years it's never been a plan as you say some people start a business to exit that business that's never been a plan for you guys at all now you've got family members who could come in and well they're in already and they're working their way through them so they're learning all the different areas so when we first started the six of us we all did more than one job so although each of us had a different skill set so I would say if you're starting your business surround yourself people with different complementary skill sets and that way you can all work together and at different times different ones of you are leading the way and the kids that are in now they're well they're not kids anymore but they're worked in different areas of the business as well so they're not single track ponies they understand but they're and then their skills are going into different areas, which is lovely.

3:26So that gives it a lovely balance as well. And I remember we chatted before, you'd said that originally the aim was like M25. Within the M25. Within the M25. Clearly the vision changed at some point. Just remind us kind of like numbers wise with that, as in where was the first location, which I know the answer to, where was the last location? Because I think you've had a few this year. I remember it says, Yeah, it's obviously there. So our first one was in Poole, where we own the building there. And then the first one outside of Poole, within the M25, because we were just going to be happy to be within the M25 after losing our previous business.

4:08So we did have an investor. So we had somebody phone us up who was a customer from Cosmetics To Go and said, are you going to make the prints of narrowly shaving cream? And it's like, well, we can. you want some so we we made that and he said oh by the way I work for somebody who invests in businesses would you be interested so we had a chat with him and Peter said that he would like to invest in there we weren't we made it very clear we're not giving shares away for the investment we are well purely we would love some investment and we will give him the best return on his investment and that was our promise it took three years and we gave him the best return on his investment with us keeping 100 % of our shares.

4:55So we weren't giving anything away. And we've never wanted to give anything away because we are quite niche, I think, with what we do with the way that we behave with our we believes, with our non-animal testing, vegan, vegetarian, freshness, naked products. All of those things don't really fit in necessarily to the cosmetic industry. So if we had people come in and go, no, I don't want you to do that because I could make more money if you didn't have that quality of ingredient you know we could make a bigger bigger margin on our products if we didn't care about the raw materials that we're using and where we get them from and if you've got people that are only after the money that's what they would want you to do they would want you to cut those corners because it's all about the margins so Peter was quite happy to invest in and that made that meant we could open a tiny little one in Covent Garden.

5:50And then I moved to London to run those. And then King's Road. And then from King's Road being on there, people from on holiday would come along, would see us. And then the first ones that did it were from Canada and Croatia. And they were like, we want to take Lush to our country. And it was like, well, we know nothing about, we didn't really know anything about retail because we'd been manufacturers and then we had the mail order business. So it was like, well, if you're going to take it, it needs to look like this. You can only sell our products in the shop and da-da-da. And they took it and, yeah, the rest, as they say, is history.

6:31So from there, we were going out things. And so then what we've always said is we wait for people to come to us. We don't go looking for people to open the business. so we're not chasing, we like to be chased and we all like that and so they come to us and one of the most important criteria when you're speaking to somebody that wants to invest in your business or wants to license your business take away is do you actually like them so one of our top thing is would we like to have dinner with you and if we just think actually we'd have nothing to talk about and we can't see a relationship here, then it doesn't matter what their credentials are, because it's not going to work.

7:19You have to have a friendship there, and then you come in with it, have you got the money? What experience have you got? So, yeah. And bring us up to date, 2025, latest locations this year? Cyprus. It opens this week, and then mail order in India opens next week. Wow, okay. I'm the 16th. Okay, and you've been, correct me if I'm wrong, to every location that you've... Do you know what? I haven't been to the Albanian one. So I haven't managed to get there. New holiday destination? It is. But if I can get work to pay for it as well, that's all the better, isn't it? I mean, they say location, location, location.

8:02They named it three times. Has that been your experience as well in building Lush? Absolutely. You've got to be where the footfall is. You've got to be. You can think, well, everybody's going to love us and people will come and find you. People don't come and find you. Well, a certain amount of people will, obviously, but you've got to put yourself out. You've got to be there where people can see you, where they walk past you, smell you, bump into you, and think, oh, let's come in and see what they're doing in here. I mean, that's one of the reasons. Retail has been difficult since the pandemic because people haven't really wanted to go back on the high street in quite the same way.

8:41It's building up now, thankfully. So we started doing collabs, which is something that we would never have done before. So Scooby-Doo is in there at the moment. Really? Yeah, there's lovely pictures of Scooby and the What's It Mystery Machine gift. Yeah, so that's in at the minute. But by doing a collab with someone... I mean, we do have very strict criteria of who we'll work with. at the minute there's a big argument as to whether we'll work with Disney or not because you always look beyond what they're up to and they have the Animal Kingdom parks and so we feel a bit like could we be associated with that.

9:23But by having a collab, by working with people that you like or that they want to work with you, that brings in new people as well because we're not on social media so we're not out there sort of poking everyone going hello look at us this is what we're doing so because we haven't got social media you have to find other ways to you know say hello have a look over here and then people you know i mean we have minecraft has been in there it's in there at the moment minions you know when you've got people that would like minecraft or minions or wicked or barbie and they wouldn't necessarily think of lush yeah yeah yeah and then they come in because they know that we've got products associated with something that they love.

10:07Yeah. And so that broadens out then your audience space. Yeah, yeah. And when you made the decision to come off social media, have you revisited that decision any number of times and talked about it or... We do talk about it, but until the algorithms change and meta cleans its act up, we reserve the right to go straight back on. The minute they make it a safe platform, for youngsters especially then we'll go back on but while it's not then we won't be on there so then you know that you're missing something if you're not on instagram and and youtube and x no youtube are all right with x and tiktok yeah but um oh i was going to tell you something really interesting though i've forgotten it so yeah but we're oh so we've then we now have our own app and we have a lush club as well and that's somewhere for people to come and find us and get you know healthy sort of information and things and and all those little benefits that you get from being part of a club and as of now like what are your your main countries and your what would you say your most profitable locations um so the uk is really good north america is the biggest volume so there's 200 stores in america and that's got so much space for more so that turns over more but whether it makes more profit than anyone else remains to be seen so turnovers don't always link to the amount of profit do they but in our top five we've got um the states canada the uk japan and korea and australia is sort of coming out korea is um owned by a partner but they're very strong.

11:49Yeah. I'm interested to know, do you still have locations that aren't necessarily profitable, but you know, too many. That's a constant conversation. Is it? Yeah. Yes. Yeah, we do. And then the, I mean, the way we look at it is that with any one time markets are up, markets are down and then you hope that it balances out and overall you're okay the I think having a license all our licensed countries where we have local partners in there are amazing because you've got an entrepreneur that's got your brand there and it's their money and so they are very keen to make it a success and we have a great team that supports them to make sure that as much as possible they can be as the success that they want to be and those countries all work really well and and they make good money then we have 20 21 countries that belong to group and they're ones where maybe the partner has retired and hasn't found somebody to pass it on to or for numerous reasons don't do lush anymore and then we get them and we look after them when that is not our strongest suit looking after yeah some of them work some of them don't and those are the ones that tend to be lower.

13:10Europe, very difficult for us. Really difficult. I don't think we make money anywhere in Europe. Anywhere? No. Other than Switzerland, who is a partner country. Wow. So they do, but they're a challenge. I am looking for a CEO for Germany at the minute. Are you out then? Yeah, if we've got anyone in here that's German, that's Peter yeah so that i need to get i need we very rarely do that bring people in at such a high level yeah but i think it's got to the point where i've just got to do it so there are challenges it is difficult italy never made any money but one of the things that we decided very early on is we wanted to be here there and everywhere so if people and people travel so much now don't they so if they see you in one place and they come and visit you in another and yeah we just wanted to be everywhere.

14:04It's clearly not enough of a headache for any of you guys to think about, actually we've had enough of the business, let's exit. No. We all still love it. We're still very active. We're all very active in the business. We're all very strong still. What makes, personally, you still active in the business? What gets you out of bed? I think still the new forest, right? Coming to Paul, which is still what on a good day 40 minutes maybe yeah on a good day exactly um what still you know motivates you inspires you to do that Rowena um the people mainly I just I love the people I love what we do last year we reached the total of having given 100 million pounds in charitable donations to small grassroots charities and that was such a lovely um target it wasn't even a target the first time we decided we'd do a giving product was we thought if we did a million if we raised a million we'd be really pleased with ourselves so but last year we reached 100 million and that was all thank you that is a crazy number it is a crazy number and it all went to grassroots charities so So, you know, not the big boys.

15:22It wasn't if we gave it all to Oxfam or WWF or anything. It was people from the ones that just want£5 ,000 to print leaflets to advertise what they're doing or, you know, up to people that are super gluing themselves to runways. You know, it could be anything. And then there's the campaigning as well. So, yeah, I really love that. Clearly, the business has been ridiculously successful. is there anything that you think almost has held you back from being even more successful might be a daft question but I don't know what's held us back I mean it depends how you you look at success doesn't it if you look at success as your bottom line then the the way that we buy our raw materials always wanting the best quality always wanting fair trade always wanting organic like always trying to go directly to growers and producers, that reduces your margin.

16:21Yeah. But that means you sleep at night because you know that your products are the best that they can be. And always the bottom line for us has been we want to produce quality and make it as affordable as we can, but still reserving the right to make a profit. And so, you know, we do that. So people looking at your profit margin wouldn't be so impressed and wouldn't see it as a success. So there's more things that they could do for that. Yeah, I don't know. You've had many well-known campaigns over the years. Is there one or a couple that you're proudest of?

17:07Yeah. I mean they're challenging aren't they? So campaigns, they're at different levels so that you can campaign about the right to roam and that's, you know, so people should have the right to be able to walk across countryside and not be told that they can't be here. so you've got that sort of level and then up to the ones where you close your shops for a day to draw attention to not starving people in Gaza or you draw attention to the fact that the police are undercover and are duping women who are in activist groups very gentle activist groups not even like, you know, not ones that are going to cause harm or death or anything and just highlighting that, that police, you know, they only ever have married policemen that do it, so that they've got a family on one end, and then quite often they have a family with the woman that they're trying to get into their group.

18:08And they came to us and said, would you highlight this? And we did that about, I don't know how many years ago, and people don't like us for it, some people didn't like us for it, but then this year, earlier on in the year, there was a whole TV program about it. So finally it had come to light and there was a TV program on it. And people were shocked to know that that was happening. Especially on such... If you were infiltrating people that were planning to blow up hard, then I would understand it. But it wasn't even anywhere near that level. So we do highlight things. And Country Alliance, they don't like us.

18:47Because we ask them not to kill badgers. and chase foxes and all that sort of stuff. So we're not always... We're a bit Marmite when it comes to our campaigns, but most of the time our customers are really behind us. Yeah. If you hadn't taken the leap over 30 years ago now, where do you think you'd be? What would you be doing? I would be... I'd be a pilot, and I'd have a boutique hotel in Botswana. That's a great answer that I never thought that was going to be the answer. yep and i'd be picking you up from maun where you would fly in and then i'd put you in my little plane and i'd fly you into our runway which goes for our boutique hotel and then i'm going to take you on safari in my jeep i think you should do that anyway i'm in i'm totally down with that yeah um tell us a little bit about what you said at this point in time where we christmas next thing on the radar what have you guys got planned um out of anything different that you would normally do yeah we're opening next thursday a hair lab in pool so um we've got one in brighton so hair labs are new to us we've had spars now for 13 years yeah that's our best kept secret there's one in birmingham i've just been there this morning very lovely and so the spa all the treatments there are created exactly the same way as we do our products so each spa treatment has its own soundtrack no whales involved but beautiful musicians so and did very different soundtracks and different treatments different types of massage the whole point is that we pick you up from one place and put you down in another so it's not waxing and eyelash tinting that sort of spa it's definitely something to affect all your senses and now we're starting on a hair lab so we opened one in brighton a couple years ago now we're going to open one in pool so we're a little bit closer to keeping it and that is a completely different way of having your hair done, but still having your hair done.

20:46Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. We're trying to... What we're working on is safe hair dyes as well. So we do henna's, so you can get different shades of red. And we do have a pink one. It's not the pink one I've got. This is my... This is the shampoo, the Snow Fairy shampoo. But we have got a pink one from Madderu that will be there, and then we're working on other colours, because hair dyes aren't particularly safe. they are carcinogenic but if you smoke it's worse for you so we've got we're trying to create all those things and when you have your hair washed you lie down so that you're not putting your head back and damaging your neck and the treatments are lovely you you are there for longer than if you were in a normal hairdresser's but the experience itself is just wonderful so always innovating yeah still some 30 years you do um i'd like to see if anybody's got any questions in the audience.

21:39We've got a roving mic. We can, there's lots of questions. I've got loads of answers. Do they all involve Botswana? Yeah, Botswana. Thanks, Louis. A chap there. We'll go to the chap there afterwards. Yeah, after you. Hi. Hi. I'd just love to know where you see yourself in 10 years' time from today. Botswana. Yeah. Actually, I'm taking my husband there next year with the hope that he'll actually like it. I suppose I try. And then for the business as well, for Lush. I think we'll be in more countries. So there's, you know, as I said, Cyprus opens this week. India will open before, opens mail order next week, and then it'll open its first shop on the 20th of December.

22:29And then the year after that, we'll go to Indonesia. So we're still looking. We're still expanding. hopefully we'll have a much stronger shop in New York that would be really nice but the money's got to come in to be able to change things How was Sydney? I just got back from Australia I was there 15 years so I walked past your lush store QVB's just been done up and it's just reopened, it looks amazing apparently I'm going down in November to have a look How is that doing there? Now it's doing really well I think the viral has hit it with super milk and sticky dates so that's why you've got to love an influencer so those two things have hit now and that's lifting it, it's bringing lots more people in so yeah, Australia's on a 46 % growth rate at the minute so yeah, I know, about time and you're heading there in November?

23:25I am, yeah, 3rd of November I'm going to nice time of year to go yes, I know, I'm so excited chat there Is this on? Yeah. Congratulations, first of all, on what you've built. Thank you. I think it's amazing. A lot of founders I speak to as they scale, one of their biggest fears is diluting their values. And you're clearly very values-driven, which is utterly commendable. Can you talk to us a bit about how you've managed to keep your values intact as you've scaled? I think because it's still the same founders, because we haven't got anyone else in pressurising us in any other way. So in the first year, when we knew that we were going to expand out, so we took on Canada, wanted to take us Croatia, so we wrote a We Believe statement, which appears it's in all shops.

24:17And so we wrote that 29 years ago. And we've never taken anything off it. We've only added something on, which was about the right to roam. so it was you know people should be welcome or should be welcome always everywhere so that's the only other addition and we had that list that we call it the we believe and that's what we run by so every every partner coming in every entrepreneur coming in then they also have to adhere to that and we've never wanted to take anything off it is it's been our passion right from the beginning and I would always say to anyone if you're going to start a business start it with something that you're really passionate about because then you on the sleepless nights the hard work the things that make you want to cry and give up you don't because you're very passionate about what you do so yeah it's not been um an easy sort of growth there's ups and downs but because we're passionate about it then it stays the same all the time and and then you know you just want to stick to stick to your values and your ethics and keep your morals We started, it's a little bit of an aside, but we have EBT, which is our Employment Benefit Trust.

25:30When we manufactured for Body Shop for years, we had a very strong relationship with Anita and Gordon Roddick. When Anita sold to L 'Oreal, we were shocked that she would have done that. It's the largest animal testing company, and she's been campaigning about against animal testing for years. So that was a big shock. and a lot of the people that worked for her were so completely upset by it. It was just like they felt like they'd been sold down the river. They worked for Body Shop because of what Body Shop stood for and that's what they wanted to do. And people worked for us as well because of what we stand for and what we do.

26:06And what we didn't want was we knew as founders that we weren't going to sell out, but you don't know what the next layer coming up are going to do, do you? You rather hope that they're as invested as you are. So we started the Employment Benefit Trust so that the next layer coming up, they can't actually sell out. And that's important to us. So we're trying to put in things that go through into the next generation of Lush. I mean, we'll all still be here right until the end, I think. So we had a consultant. That's not a nice enough word for him, actually, Stan Crystal. and on his deathbed he was writing formulas for us and that's been what we were all like, yep, that's where we're going to be.

26:55Yeah, it's the same. Because, you know, we love it. Chabla. Just as an extension, I guess, of the brand capital preservation, you mentioned the strategy of here, there and everywhere. Can you talk more about the sort of philosophy around the brand and the decision not to do something like social media, given the competitive nature of the Kardashians and the Selena Gomez's of the world entering that sort of space as a brand that has decided not to go the personal route in terms of collaborations and partnerships and how you're building it around Lush as the identity itself. Oh, that was a lot in there.

27:37That was a lot in there, yeah. It's a hell of a question. Oh, hello. Also, if Botswana doesn't work out, South Africa's a good place. if you couldn't place the accent. Where? South Africa. I love South Africa. It's my favourite country. I know, I do, yeah. Well, it's my second one after Botswana. We don't... We have done one-to-ones collabs. We did one with... She's based in Brighton, and we did a mental health one with her and someone else. So that was linked to switching off computers for the day and things. So we're not averse to that. The Kardashians, we love them. They shop in our shops and then they put them on their website, on their Instagram feed.

28:23So we go that way, really, rather than doing things. But it was all about a lot of youngsters shop with us. And what we don't want them to be doing is going on to Instagram looking for us or TikTok. I mean, they're still going to go on there anyway, aren't they? but we didn't want to be there and encouraging them to come on and then maybe getting hooked into the more horrid side of it. What was another bit? Is that? Yeah, I guess that was just about it. It was an extension of the values and I guess you've explained that already. Yes, and that's it. But with all things, so like with our non-animal testing policy, we don't buy raw materials from any company that does any testing so it's not just about the raw material which it often is with a lot of companies they won't buy a raw material that's been tested but they'll buy from that company we won't buy from that company if they're doing any testing because the profit from our purchase would technically could be paying for the testing on animals so you know we take that one step further and and don't do and so don't even buy from them so therefore being on Instagram you don't want to be somewhere where it can do more harm than good if children are on there especially yes sorry just on top of that is then how are you actually getting into those communities I know you've said that you've built an app now but where are those other forums that are you directly connecting with your customer base we do things on YouTube so we have a little YouTube channels which we do things on we've got the app we've got the Lush Club, we've got email, so there's emails going out and then bye, and then and then we're, so we're doing that really, and we're, we try and be so on the high street, creating theatre, and having that space where people want to come in and take part in the theatre and smell it, you know, you walk into a Lush shop, breathe deeply, you've had a free aromatherapy treatment so it's you know there's lots of stuff going on and we're just trying to be present then I think we reckon that we probably lost 10 % by coming off so yeah but it was important to us and you know obviously you can tell we reserve the right to make a profit but it's not only about the profit no no yeah 100 % can you pass the mic to Jeanette thanks oh

30:55Rowena amazing loving the dress through your incredible journey what have you learned most about yourself I like myself now more than I used to so it's sort of I think resilience probably and my ability to say yes to anything I'm adaptable so you know when we started the business it was like right who's who's going to go and live in london then and run the shops oh i'll do it then and then yeah yeah and then who yeah then it was like well if if canada and korea are going to come off well i'll i'll go and visit them then because the others didn't want to do it they had children they had families i'd only just got married so it was okay for me to be doing those things so i don't think i'd realize just how adaptable and how up for stuff i am so i like to say yes to things.

31:48I like to give things a go. So I'm surprised by how much energy I have when I'm motivated to do different things. Thank you. Do you ever say no? No. No. Yeah, I do. She's going to come on our podcast. She's got a great podcast. I am going to ask you to come on my podcast. Brave, bold, brilliant. Oh, three of my favourite words. You were going to say that, so I was like, yes. Amazing. There you go. Question there, was it? Yeah, brilliant. Thanks. Last couple, and then we've got to wrap. Yeah, I just wanted to say thank you, because 14 years ago, your level of customer service is phenomenal, because 14 years ago, I just started my business, and I wrote to you, and I had no, you know, I didn't have a big following, and I just asked for your friends would benefit massage bars, and you sent me, and you even, I have the picture, have the label saying especially made for my for my business and it was so something that stuck out for me and then i remember several years ago feeling really run down one day going in to one of your shops in milton keens and you this lady just slipped something in my bag and i got home and i read it and it was like we felt like you needed this today and it was a little shower um the steamer and it just like blew my mind so i've always like had lush you guys as one of like your values are phenomenal and yeah it's something that with my business i really try to stick to my about it.

33:10Thank you for today. That's our random act of kindness. We don't talk about it very much. I'll tell you guys, but normally we wouldn't mention it. But all the shop, everybody working on the shop floor is allowed to put products in people's bag when they feel that they need them. Didn't know that. That's so cool. No, it's a secret. There you go. Wow. That's so good to know. I'm I'm going to ask because she's too shy to. We come from a family business and there's been some conflict, there's been some happy times, there's been some difficult times. How do you manage it? That's your answer. Exactly.

33:53There are good times and bad times. I know. We've got one of the next generation coming up that drives me bloody crazy. And I don't know what to do about it. But he's a family member, so not the one. This is third year. Is it? Yeah. No pressure. it's hard it is hard it is hard um patience i think and it's the sort of i think you've got to do communication and um yeah i've yeah i'm not ever so good at dealing with that because you know the person is protected because he belongs to the other founders some of the one another founder so no i don't have family i kept it simple i have holidays not children so it is it is really difficult but I think communicating keeping those open and trying not to let you know and then having a discussion you know I regularly have to sit down with them and go why have you done that well yeah where's that coming from what what does that mean and they're not easy conversations because this person is really like and it's like you dread it you go in thinking flip and act but if you don't do that conversation then conversation becomes harder and harder and harder right well it does and then you it builds up inside you and you become really that's not good thing no and they'll know as well so yeah there's no easy answer sadly but you know that a family business lasts longer and is stronger so a lot of their big businesses, Laurel included, are family owned.

35:35So they're still owned and things, but you wouldn't think that. So a family business is stronger than other businesses. Time for the last question. Chat there in the beige suit. I saw I had his hand up before and then we'll come one more at the back. We'll get that one in quickly. Have you implemented AI or are you thinking to? Oh gosh, that is such a discussion, isn't it? I mean, what fun is AI? But it's, On the other side of that, we're an environmental company, and the amount of power it uses is like, whoa. So we've got the environmentalists in the company going, we can't use AI. And then you've got everyone else going, but we really want to use AI.

36:15So it's a discussion the whole time. But yes, it's about, it really is about, but we're all about the people that we employ as well. So where we would use it would not be in an area where somebody would lose their job. And that's the important thing about AI. If it can supplement and it can support and it can be a great team member, lovely. But if it's there to replace somebody, then no. Yeah, good answer. Our last question, then we'll have to wrap up. We've run over as usual. Hi, Rowena. Hi. Really quick question. Your supply chain, based on your ethics, do you actually own a portion or all of your supply chain?

37:00or did you go through a calculation? And if so, what was that calculation to determine whether it was worth you owning your own supply chain for the raw materials? Oh, so you mean raw materials, not freight? Okay, good. No, we don't. We own some things. So we have lavender that we grow ourselves and bitter orange trees that we grow ourselves in Lebanon. And that's really lovely. and we have a big chunk of rainforest that we bought to keep it protected. We were hoping we could take the rosewood oil, but you can't because it's protected. So we can't do that. So in a few areas we do that. We support very much growers and producers.

37:47And that is really important to us. So quite often we will support more. So we had what was called the slush fund. And that was all about finding growers and then investing in their business for them. Never to the point that they would only supply us. Because if we went down, they would then be left with nothing. So we would always encourage anyone that we work with like that to have more than one customer. So not just us. And that's really important. We have the Spring Prize, which is all about investing in regeneration. and we put the prize out there and people apply for the prize money which helps their regenerative products regenerative projects so we're very you know that but we don't want to tie it all up but we have we have a team of creative buyers we call them so it's not just about popping down to the the warehouse or googling online where you can get this raw material from it's about going to find who's growing it, what conditions are the people working in.

38:54There's a whole list of questions that you have to go through to even become a supplier for Lush. It's really strict. And that all includes fair wages, safe working conditions, no child labour, lots and lots of different, no animal testing, obviously. And so it's incredibly tough. And And sometimes we can't do what we want to do or get what we would like to get. And we have to do things. But we make those things a challenge for us. And then it becomes not a challenge. It becomes a challenge, not a problem. So how we'll work out where we're going to get something, how we're going to get it when we want something.