The Idea I Couldn't Ignore

21:34Alex Chisnall:So I wanted to let you know about something that I see trip founders up all the time. If you're running a business with international payments, one of the biggest hidden costs is often foreign exchange. World First is built specifically for businesses operating across borders, helping you manage payments, hold multiple currencies, and reduce unnecessary FX costs. They're not a high street bank trying to do everything. They focus purely on international business payments and currency exchange. That's their thing. Switching providers is a commitment, which is why they're giving our listeners 50 fee-free business transactions to properly test their service.

22:10Alex Chisnall:Plus, signing up for an account is completely free and there are no ongoing monthly fees. You've got 60 days from sign up to use them. Head to worldfirst.com forward slash screw it and get your 50 fee free business transactions. Now back to the podcast. Nice. Switching it back to building Vizzy for a minute then. If you can explain to the audience, what did you guys think was fundamentally broken about not just CVs, about the entire hiring process today? I think, you know, fundamentally, we're kind of in this era where everything's just trying to be automated. Everything's trying to be faster and quicker and just trying to sort of just prioritize, you know, now that we have these very limited but easy ways of applying for a job.

22:59It's just, okay, how much of that can we get or how many times can I apply and then how quickly can I just sort of cut through that? And I think we sort of said, no, that's not the way to approach things. We've got to create our own space, which is more about identity and expression and curiosity and how people think. And for us, the future of hiring isn't how do you get through more data quicker? It's how do we understand how people think and what they can really do or are going to be able to do. And so I think with that, and particularly now that AI has obviously really come into the fore, it's about making it human and we're ultimately trying to bring people into businesses and I think when we know what makes a great hire, what makes great teammates it's not job titles and qualifications it's who you are and that with Vizzy and our tools, that's what we're looking to bring out with people and just give them the freedom to actually play to their own strengths rather than trying to fit into what they think a business wants to see or what a perfect CV might look like.

24:10That's what you always used to do, isn't it? Try and tell them what they want to hear, right? Yeah, yeah. Well, this is still what people are trying to do. And I really feel for them, especially the sort of the younger professionals and in the early career space, because you're obviously, you haven't necessarily got any work experience yet. You may not have traditional qualifications. What you do have is like bags of attitude and you're sort of on the cusp of culture. You've got a really unique perspective on the world. and often, particularly with young professionals, they are the customers of these businesses.

24:41They've got a really, there's so much there, but we're trying to get them to express all of that as a bullet point and a PDF. So it's about just kind of moving out of that and creating this new space that's far more about who the person is. What are your thoughts on,

25:01Alex Chisnall:what are your thoughts on um because i was having this conversation with a friend of mine who's now in the ai space um and his daughter's the same age as mine like 1917 19 and 17 and um i was just like and he's been like a lawyer hedge fund manager you know all sorts of things and i was like so i've got one daughter who's thinking about going into a legal career what's your advice and he was like two years ago i would have told to go for it he said now I have no idea so I'm like what's your advice to your daughters he's like no idea and I was like but you're in the AI space and you're way more intelligent than me so if you can't give me an answer so I'm just really interested to know other people's thoughts on it and I think this is the thing that we're in this quite amazing kind of transitional period I think it will never happen again right in our lifetime totally and it's so exciting for many reasons but ultimately business is about people and it always will be and I think even if we transition to this more agentic way of working, the people attached to these models is going to be more important.

26:07And I think it's fascinating when you hear about that English Lit students are now so in demand because of their craft and mastery of the language and what they're then able to put into these NLPs and things like that. And that's probably maybe a degree that five, six years ago, everyone was like, no, you can't do an English Lit degree. That's what I did. Yeah, no, totally. And this is why I think it's so interesting. And it's where, you know, when we kind of really delve into things like taste and curiosity and how you learn, you know, your tech literacy, that doesn't mean that you need to have a whole list of kind of online courses that you've done or anything.

26:42That's great if you've got it. But actually, what have you built? What have you played with? What have you kind of self-started with and stuff like that? And I think that's where it's very interesting. And through Vizzy, kind of being able to do that and building it with the businesses, where they're now kind of shaping Vizies around what they want to see. I was going to say, how much of that? Yeah, and you're open to that, obviously, right? Totally, totally. And especially with us not coming from a kind of hiring background. We're like, this is what we believe. And again, with sort of these amazing businesses that we're working with, the teams there, we've then been able to really kind of craft the products around them.

27:15That's awesome. Which has been a crisis for us. And of course, the talent on the other side, who they're sort of saying, well, we can see it. We can see how they break our products and how they make it their own. and we're like, oh, we should lean into that and follow that thread. So yeah, that for us has been huge and a big part of the last couple of years. Yeah, it's interesting, just finishing off a conversation I had with Piers

27:39Alex Chisnall:and he was saying, we were talking about the event business that I got and he was like, I think whilst so many businesses are leaning in technology, which you obviously have to ride the AI wave, he said equally, those who are zagging with others are zigging and you're leaning into relationship building and connecting people like an event, like what you guys are doing, is massive, right? Totally. Absolutely massive. And I think it is, again, it just comes back to business is about people. Nothing will ever stop that connection, that being in the room together and building things together. And I think we're going to have more tools than we know what to do with, which is so exciting.

28:17So we'll be able to build things faster and play more and kind of get there quicker.

28:20Alex Chisnall:but you know this sort of yeah it's I think it just comes back to yeah those people that have the fresh idea the unique perspectives are going to be you know the thinkers and the doers are going to be more dangerous than ever it's going to be awesome I don't know if you even thought about this why do you think all of the other companies that preceded you have like missed the opportunity that you guys saw have you spent any time actually thinking about that or have you been too busy cracking on I think just because I think it's kind of taking maybe a bit for granted that the CV is just going to be the way forever.

28:56And it's almost too convenient. I mean, Leonardo da Vinci created the CV back in 14-something or other. So it's been around for 500 years. I've got no problem with his other work. His other work's great, no notes. But the CV, it was time. And so it's kind of just been there. And I think whilst other tools and assessments and things like that have kind of come to the fore as well. And I think there's just a massive assumption that that's the kind of the de facto way of looking at talent. And so then everyone around that just got to, okay, how many applications can we get? Or how many applications can I submit?

29:33And how quickly can we churn through that data? And I think it's a little bit almost like kind of the marketing world where, you know, at one point it's all about, you know, a sort of a good hiring campaign was based on how many applications can we get? how much reach can we get with a marketing campaign now we've learned it's actually about the quality of those engagements so it's about the quality of the applications and you're far better off having fewer better applicants than just being overwhelmed by them so I think there was a big rush for and equally with the candidate experience an assumption that a good candidate experience is just a very quick one Can we allow someone to apply with one click?

30:16That just opens the door to just so many casual applicants. And actually, what it comes down to for the candidates is they want to apply in a way that plays to their strengths and they want to feel seen. They can really care about whether it's one click or putting more time in. And we've proven that. Vizi takes more effort and we're very happy to champion that. but in doing so you'll lose the casual applicants you'll lose the one click appliers and you'll get to those people that are really engaged and the candidates the feedback we get is then you know wow I've really I've really put myself into this application I've really shown them who I am they see my personality no one's asked me this stuff before

30:58Alex Chisnall:all that kind of stuff so you know we get loads of feedback from them the most used word is fun which is probably an achievement in itself so yeah I think that's probably why everyone's kind of missed this and we've just sort of gone into a bit of a new territory, which I think has surprised a few people when we turn up. And what about for those people, and it's been ever thus, I guess, who don't know what they want to do, and they've got this experience and these qualifications. Maybe they don't feel they have a purpose. Maybe they don't feel fulfilled in their current role. what are your thoughts on that and kind of helping those those people yeah it's one of the when we first released busy we just kind of released the profile and it was you know anyone can make this this busy profile and and sort of showcase themselves and one of the kind of the response was almost quite emotional in a way from the first sort of users where it's like wow i actually almost like quite a cathartic process of making the busy profile we have a psychometric assessment built in that will actually tell you what your personality type, your working style and your strengths are.

32:08So, you know, they love that. But even the sort of, you can still present your work and qualifications in a beautiful way. But we then have all these kind of prompts and questions. So, and that I think is where it becomes quite a sort of a discovery of, okay, actually, what do you really lean into? And these sort of creative guardrails allow you to actually, express yourselves and it directs you into the spaces that you're most interested in. And now as well, we've curated a great suite of questions from some of the world's biggest businesses, whether it's what should Netflix add to their mobile experience or pick an app, how would you make it better with AI or what's the time that you champion something that no one else did.

32:52And again, it's just that sort of way that even then saying, okay, these are the areas that I'm gravitating towards and things like that. So I think it's, and then what we're also hearing loads from is people that do shift careers. You almost feel trapped that, okay, because my last three job titles and logos are this, I can never pivot. And they suddenly throw a busy at a completely new business, an industry that they've never been in before. Because they're not looking at them just because of a previous job title. They're looking at how they think and their kind of perspectives. It's far easier for that business to go, oh yeah, you're our kind of person.

33:28You'll thrive here. So it's able to kind of open doors and see that in a different way. Literally having those conversations in the last couple of weeks with people. What do you kind of look for? When you kind of build teams and things, what's most exciting for you? Sorry, that's my question. I tend to ask everybody. No, that's good. What matters to you when you build teams?

33:47Alex Chisnall:This is, I think, my fifth business that I've had since I left Virgin Atlantic. And I've done every which way. I've done hiring straight out of university. I've hired people with the most experience I could possibly find and mixed results from both. And then what I ultimately think I've settled on is that I look at what have you done outside of the obvious stuff like school, university qualifications, what other stuff are you doing? And I guess it's just my background. again you know what sports what clubs what you know um charity any any like extras i keep kind of tell my kids that you will never have you think you're like you you've got load no time now i said this is the most time you'll ever have in your lives and i said when i'm hiring and i speak to people like julian hearn from huell who's just sold for a billion euros right i remember chanted julian when there were 50 million pound brand in like year three and he was still involved at that stage in the hiring process of everyone that came in and i've just ended you know chatting to al barrett last week from grenades you know who exited for a couple hundred mil going back and forth with al on a few things and same thing it was literally just like looking you know what what else outside of the obvious of people got um and so many of those people um it's not looking at the cv yeah you know because it's like you know what can you read but how do you kind of filter those candidates down and those people who haven't even put a covering letter you know and it's a standard covering letter and i mean i dread to think what it's like these days because everyone's just pulling the same stuff off right yeah totally no it is yeah yeah so it is it is fascinating and and it's it's really interesting that we're coming up to like 750 episodes of of this show and not including all the kind of live events i've done but the the biggest thing that comes up all the time whether you're a Julian Hearn or you're a Ray Kelvin from Ted Bake who built a near two billion pound business it's always the same thing the hardest thing is hiring people yeah the second hardest thing is keeping the good people it's the same thing you know if I write a book when I write a book and I literally kind of you know pull out the DNA of what's come across all of these hundreds of shows that's what it is that's just interesting you know getting you in for a conversation yeah And I think you're right.

36:11It's amazing how many of these kind of super CEOs, they're still obsessed with hiring. They never kind of delegate to outsource it. That really surprised me. No, it's amazing. It's really cool. And it almost becomes a bigger part of their job than a lot of the other elements. They're still right on the front line of just who's the next person to bring into the team.

36:31Alex Chisnall:Yeah, yeah, exactly. What's been harder than you expected thus far in the journey of starting your own business and scaling your own business? I think some of the bits that we touched upon in terms of, you know, just, you know, we've picked to reverse something that is so ingrained in the industry. And I think, you know, with some of these businesses, the kind of the idea of receiving fewer applicants is like, you know, and it's kind of one of those where, and that's fine because Vizzy doesn't have to be for everybody. it shouldn't be for every business and so I think that's kind of been one of those where that's been a bit of a journey for some and I think it's one of those where once it's in their hands it's kind of undeniable and they see that okay actually no this is actually better for getting to the best talent faster but I think that's probably one which has almost surprised me a bit in terms of just that especially when they know the problem the meeting can start with oh, we're just inundated with all this kind of, you know, CV-based applicants, and then we just got to get through them all.

37:42And then, you know, we end up with a dozen interviews, and half of them are a bust, and so they know it. But sometimes that's just the bit which is a bit kind of surprising. And like I said, the right businesses, and we're working with these incredible organizations, they're just going to go, yeah, we get this, we're going to do it, we're going to lead on it. And that's great. And I think that probably is where you do have your kind of... yeah, those sort of core users and core businesses and clients and stuff, and they'll bring the next wave. But I think that's probably something which has surprised me a little bit, is just the sticking with something that they kind of know isn't working.

38:22Isn't working. Is a funny one. But not prepared to take the risk. Yeah, and I think it may be coupled with the times that we're in at the moment where there is so much change and so much transition going on that everyone's having a little bit of a... But, yeah, it's kind of one of those where I think, yeah, that's just surprised me a bit, I think. But beyond that, you know, we're still, it's just about getting to those, you know, that kind of see it go, yeah, get it, let's go type thing.

38:47Alex Chisnall:Who would you really like to work with that you are working with right now? That's an interesting one. I think… Any of that favorite brands? I think, I mean, as a very obvious one, kind of Netflix, partly because Netflix are so, as their culture, they openly say that they operate there, they're kind of hiring like a sports team, where they're always looking for a better person. It's almost like they are so kind of… How do we improve the team, right? Exactly, yeah. You're not filling a role, are you? Yeah, exactly. They're almost always looking, proactively looking to find a better person for your position in the team.

39:26And they're so open about that, which I find is amazing. so I think to have a group that they themselves are so innovative in how they build teams and things I think would be awesome and I also quite like the natural media storytelling side of things between Vizzy and Netflix I think it would be a nice meeting

39:49Alex Chisnall:of the two so I'd say Netflix there's a whole long list if you can imagine but I just think yeah particularly when I saw that that's how Netflix kind of see their teams I was like oh yeah that's pretty full on there'll be some cool conversations right two questions at what moment did you think this could actually work and was there a moment you thought this might not work I think you know when we it was that sort of that first reaction probably one thing we didn't do very well before our first launch was we didn't really cultivate the user base we didn't we didn't build our kind of big wait list and things like that We were just very focused on, you know, we built it, we put it out into the market.

40:33And so it was a bit of a cold start, if you like. And, you know, we kind of threw it out there on socials with this kind of, the CV's dead, make a vision, stand out from the crowd. And we're lucky that it worked and great people came to the platform. And I will never forget the kind of the Instagram DM of, I've just landed my dream job with my Vizzy. After months and months of searching, thank you for saving my ass and that was like yeah we've got something here and that's that's really and it was like well we got someone a job that's kind of that's cool we can retire yeah and so that was that was like the real like cool we can yeah we're on to this and then i think the burberry piece and then from there tiffany lou vuitton and kind of as the clients kind of momentum grew we i think grew in sort of confidence as well in terms of you know we stopped being apologetic about getting fewer applicants and started seeing that as a real positive and things like that.

41:28So I think that's the kind of, the cadence in that respect. I think the idea was there a bit where we thought it wouldn't work. I think, honestly, and the last one I wanted to say, but honestly, no. Like, I just think we, because we've been able to build that sort of confidence in a way and sort of, and as we discussed earlier, being able to build it alongside a lot of these amazing businesses. and kind of learn with them and craft it around them, that's enabled us to put something in the market that is really validated and legit. So, you know, it's obviously a pretty tough time in a kind of macro sense of, you know, kind of startup culture and tech and, you know, even the hiring space.

42:08But I think, you know, in terms of what the product does and, you know, our take and how really this sort of, you know, this kind of AI transformation, I think totally works in our favor in terms of finding a more human way of hiring. Yeah, I agree. I also feel totally, you know, totally kind of total belief in what we have.

42:28Alex Chisnall:For somebody who's listening or watching now who's stuck, what would your advice be to them? I think I kind of go back to one of the bits of advice that my best friend gave me, which was just to go work out. Like just, I think whenever I get stuck, whenever I'm sort of, you know, I kind of look around and actually my diet's gone, sleep's gone, working out's gone. There's a pile of laundry in the corner type of thing. It's a little bit like you just need that. And I think you don't need to run a marathon. You don't need to bench press a Mini Cooper. I think it's just if you do that bit, if you kind of get those habits going, suddenly all perspective can change.

43:11I don't know what to say if you're already working out and you're already fit as a fiddle and you're stuck. But I think that's just the bit where it doesn't have to be working out. I just think it's that kind of wider, almost, almost, you can do well by kind of walking away from, you know, how you're stuck for a moment and focus on something else, get something else right, and then kind of come back to the problem in a way. Yeah.

43:32Alex Chisnall:Take yourself out of the space, isn't it? I'm like, go for a run, go for a run in nature. Yeah. And your mind's away from it. And that's when, or for me at least, the idea is like, it actually comes to you. And it doesn't mean a miracle is going to happen. You don't go for a run and come back and you figure it out. It might take two, three weeks, but it's a bit like, and I think also with that, I think it is, you know, the sort of, you know, talk about it. Like get, you know, get those trusted people around you or find new people that you can kind of build a connection with. And, you know, you don't need to necessarily overshare, but I think, you know, and I think particularly, I think particularly as men, we can be very sort of, like can get quite holed up and see it as a big sign of weakness and things like that.

44:10But I think talking is often a way of, you know, and they may open up back at you and suddenly everything kind of, I think perspective is kind of what you're kind of looking for. And then, yeah, things will unlock.

44:24Alex Chisnall:Yeah, and I agree. That was the biggest takeaway from the last interview I did with Roxy Nafusi was asking how she built such a widely known personal brand. And she was like, I think it's the ability to be vulnerable and not being afraid to ask for help. Whereas, as you say, as blokes, traditionally the worst to do those kinds of things. Always finish up with a quick fire round. So there is no right or wrong answer. It's literally whatever comes into your head. Short and sweet. Joe, for you, what is an entrepreneur? I think it's someone that puts their name to the idea and takes responsibility for making it happen.

45:08Alex Chisnall:Yeah, like that. For me, yeah. That works. and I guess the stage of business that you're now in, what constitutes a scale-up business? I think it's when you go from proving the idea in some isolated circumstances to that success just being inevitable and almost being systemic. And the momentum is systemic, as it were. So I think it's that bit where it probably becomes more about the processes and the infrastructure and not necessarily the virality of it, but it's just the inevitability that that is going to grow. That's a good word. I like that, the inevitability of it. We've covered this one, one song that reflects your journey, so New Radicals.

45:50Alex Chisnall:Yeah, get what you give, New Radicals. Awesome. And I think you've literally just answered this one, but who would you recommend, having been on the show, that you think's got a great Screw It, Just Do It story? Charlotte Lee and Olivia Lee, two sisters that founded Toko Swim. They were both working at PwC as accountants. They built their swimwear company, Toko Swim, on the side. And real sort of, you know, two mothers. I went to university with Charlotte. She's one of my best mates. And so, you know, proper kind of packaging it when the kids had gone to bed and all this kind of stuff. But this amazing moment where, you know, their swimwear company was growing.

46:28They were still sort of with the suits at PwC. And then one day they found themselves kind of on the front page of Daily Mail as the kind of this hottest new swimwear company. and everyone at PwC was like, what's happening? So they've built an amazing business with this incredibly loyal, all around that kind of customer base. So really, really proud of Shara and what they've built. Oh, yeah, love an intro.

46:52Alex Chisnall:That sounds like a great story. Yeah, no, they're fantastic. I love stories like that. I was chatting to the mother and daughter of Absolute Collagen and he was literally, again, testing it in the kitchen, making it for your friends. Where can we buy more? Well, you can't.

47:10Alex Chisnall:anything you want to add before we finish any any final thoughts at all anyone who's listening who wants to try a Vizzy yeah I think Vizzy anyone can make a Vizzy profile for free I just love love anyone to get on there and give it a crack and get in touch and let us know what they think and and anyone building building teams whether you're working for one of the biggest businesses in the world or or a startup like like us it's a it's a special way of looking at talent and seeing people and as i say we'd would love love to love to hear from you and and uh and to put busy in your hands and and build something together perfect um joe woodward thank you very much indeed thank you so much for having me pleasure awesome that was really good if this conversation resonated with you don't just sit there act on it make sure you follow or subscribe for more game-changing conversations.

48:02Alex Chisnall:And remember, the only thing standing between you and your business breakthrough is the decision to screw it and just do it.