In short
Podcast Summary: We Spent 2.5 Years Developing Fabric Before Selling One Item | Rory MacFadyen of Reflo
Podcast Details
- Title: Screw It Just DO It with Alex Chisnall
- Host: Alex Chisnall
- Episode: Rory MacFadyen of Reflo
- Release Date: New episodes every Tuesday and Thursday
- Description: Conversations with entrepreneurs about facing uncertainty, taking risks, and building impactful businesses.
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Episode Overview In this episode, Alex Chisnall interviews Rory MacFadyen, co-founder of Reflo, a sustainable apparel brand that aims to revolutionize performance wear by addressing waste in the sportswear industry. Rory shares his journey from a corporate career in sports, through the conception of Reflo, to building a brand that prioritizes sustainability and innovation.
Key Themes
- Transition from corporate to entrepreneurship
- Sustainability in fashion and sportswear
- The importance of resilience and long-term vision
- Building partnerships and credibility
- Challenges of entrepreneurship and hustle culture
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Key Takeaways
- The Genesis of Reflo
- Rory initially had a stable career trajectory in sports management, working on sponsorship deals and major events.
- The turning point came when he recognized the massive waste in sportswear and learned from his friend Pete about creating performance fabric from plastic waste.
- The Development Journey
- Reflo spent 2.5 years developing sustainable fabrics before launching their first product.
- The focus was on ensuring that the fabrics not only met environmental standards but also outperformed conventional materials.
- Overcoming Challenges
- The founders faced skepticism from potential partners but also encountered support from early believers in their mission.
- They used rejection as motivation and maintained a bullish approach to their vision.
- The Importance of Branding and Perception
- Rory emphasized the need to present Reflo as a larger entity than it was during launch to attract potential partners and customers.
- They launched with a variety of products to avoid the perception of being a typical startup.
- Lessons on Entrepreneurship
- Rory discussed the pressure that comes with being responsible for employees and the need for balance in life.
- He advised against waiting for the "perfect time" to launch, stating that obstacles like supply chain issues are part of the entrepreneurial journey.
- Community Engagement and Growth
- Reflo is planning to launch a crowdfunding campaign to involve their community in the growth of the brand.
- Rory highlighted the importance of building relationships and engaging with loyal customers who believe in the mission.
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Reflections on Entrepreneurship
- Rory reflects that entrepreneurship is often glamorized, but the reality involves hard work and sacrifices.
- He emphasizes the need for a support system and a positive mindset to navigate the difficulties of running a startup.
Conclusion Rory MacFadyen's story encapsulates the journey of identifying problems, taking risks, and building a sustainable business in an industry that typically prioritizes profit over environmental concerns. His insights provide a valuable perspective for aspiring entrepreneurs looking to make a meaningful impact.
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Call to Action For listeners interested in supporting Reflo's mission and potentially investing in their crowdfunding campaign, stay tuned to their channels for updates.
Contact Information
- Website: [Reflo](https://www.reflo.com)
- Podcast: [Screw It Just DO It](https://www.screwitjustdoit.com)
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Remember, entrepreneurship is about taking the first step despite uncertainties. As Rory says, "Screw it, just do it."
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Journey to Reflow
0:45 to 1:27
Rory discusses the timeline and pressures of launching Reflow.
“For us, it's every business decision we make.”
Introducing Rory MacFadyen
1:27 to 2:11
Rory explains his role and the mission behind Reflow.
“Now let's jump into the main conversation.”
Career Path Before Reflow
2:11 to 3:13
Rory shares his background in sports and corporate settings.
“what did you think your career was going to look like?”
The Spark for Sustainability
3:13 to 4:22
Discussion on Rory's shift towards sustainability and the origins of Reflow.
“especially if you didn't think you'd ever be doing anything like this.”
The Genesis Moment of Reflow
4:22 to 8:20
Rory explains the pivotal moment that led to starting Reflow.
The Development Journey
8:20 to 9:31
Insights into the two and a half years of development before launch.
“And how long from that idea and then all of the, you know, the research and the kind of digging into it, how long did it take before you had a product?”
Facing Doubts and Challenges
9:31 to 10:58
Exploration of the challenges faced during the startup process.
“And were there moments in there where you questioned it or you parked it even and then revisited it?”
Support for Entrepreneurs
10:58 to 11:51
Comparison of entrepreneurial support in the UK vs Middle East.
Achieving Forward Momentum
11:51 to 13:13
Rory discusses the moment Reflow gained significant traction.
Launch Strategy and Attention
13:13 to 14:00
Details on the strategies that garnered attention during launch.
“So when we launched, even though it was two of us and we both had full-time jobs, we wanted someone to look at this and go, they're legit.”
Show all 24 chapters
Launch Strategies and Initial Challenges
14:00 to 15:00
Learn about the strategies used during the product launch and the challenges faced.
“or did they come onto the radar from launch?”
Building Brand Reputation
15:00 to 16:00
Discover how personal reputation and industry connections influenced brand perception.
“We should have probably launched with three products because we were still learning how to develop product.”
Adapting Business Models
16:00 to 17:00
Understand the decisions behind product offerings and branding strategies.
“We could have gone and tried to source an existing product and stuck our logo on and gone, we're a brand, which is so much of.”
Learning from the Competition
17:00 to 19:00
Explore insights on competition and market positioning in the sportswear industry.
“and I was, I started off as a mentor, then I became a business advisor and then they got me to set up my own business and I ran like nine of the counties for Virgin Star.”
Managing Pressure and Expectations
19:00 to 20:20
Hear about the pressures of running a growing business and managing expectations.
“but I'm doing it anyway moment for yourself or either of you that you chatted about.”
Evolving Roles in Business
21:35 to 23:10
Find out how founders can adapt roles to better suit their strengths in a growing company.
“And what does that pressure look like for you now?”
Realities of Entrepreneurship
23:10 to 25:50
Gain insights into the realities and challenges of starting and running a business.
“So yeah, pressure changes and your mindset changes and the size of the prize changes as well, right?”
Balancing Work and Life
25:50 to 28:01
Learn about the struggles of finding balance between work and personal life.
“this is easy you can just go and do that It ain't.”
The Challenges of Entrepreneurship
28:01 to 29:20
Learn about the hardships of starting and running a business from Rory's experience.
“I always like the, again, my mate's like messaging me when he's on that flight from like London to Dubai on Emirates.”
Funding and Growth Strategies
29:21 to 31:36
Discover how Rory and his partner financed their business and plans for future growth.
Community Engagement and Crowdfunding Plans
31:37 to 34:13
Understand the importance of community in Rory's business model and upcoming crowdfunding efforts.
“And we was super beneficial that a lot of people around us believed in what we were doing and invested in that.”
Vision for the Future and Industry Impact
34:14 to 36:44
Explore Rory's long-term vision for Reflow and its impact on the industry.
“And yeah, I know those guys at CrowdQ actually.”
Building Relationships and Brand Ambassadorship
36:45 to 39:12
Learn how Rory formed key partnerships and the role of ambassadors in business success.
Support for Startups and Entrepreneurial Ecosystem
39:13 to 40:46
Discuss the differences in support for entrepreneurs between the UK and Dubai.
“Support the entrepreneur, support the value builders, the growers, the risk takers.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Alex Chisnall:What stops founders from building something meaningful isn't the lack of ideas, it's the fear of getting started. I'm Alex Chisnall and this is Screw It Just Do It, the podcast for people who are ready to stop waiting, take action and make things happen.
0:14Rory MacFadyen:I never thought I would probably move into the space of creating a disruptive brand. It was probably two and a half years, I'd say, from idea to launch because we wanted to get it right. I had my first ever holiday last year since launching Reflow where I didn't check my emails for two days. A lot of people that work for us and a lot of people whose livelihoods depend on us. And that's pressure, huge pressure. And like I feel that day in, day out. Early on, we went through a stage of winning every partnership pitch that we ever went into. And we were like, well, this is easy. No one is to the level that we are.
0:45Rory MacFadyen:For us, it's every business decision we make. It's everything from packaging to product to logistics, everything in between.
0:52Alex Chisnall:Before we get into today's conversation, this is genuinely relevant for a lot of founders listening. Are you running a business that pays supplies abroad, receives international payments, or operates across borders? World First helps founders manage global payments and FX more efficiently with access to competitive exchange rates and tools designed specifically for growing businesses. World First have given us an exclusive offer for podcast listeners to get 50 transactions completely fee-free for 60 days. Head to worldfirst.com forward slash screw it to create a free account and claim now. Now let's jump into the main conversation.
1:29Alex Chisnall:So Rory, for people who don't know you yet, how do you usually describe what you do?
1:34Rory MacFadyen:Sure, I am the co-founder of Reflow. Reflow is a sustainable apparel business creating the future of performance wear. um that's the the very abridged version there's a lot behind that but essentially we looked at an industry um that we didn't feel had progressed and was a huge uh impact on the world um the fashion industry is uh the the second or third most putting industry in the world and sportswear is a big part of that we looked at it went well who's trying to do things differently and the answer was no one so we went with the mission how do we create the most sustainable apparel brand in the world and yeah that's what we've been building for the last four years.
2:10I love that and before reflow
2:12Alex Chisnall:what did you think your career was going to look like?
2:15Rory MacFadyen:It's a great question I was on kind of a pretty solid trajectory of I started off working in the events industry when I graduated from uni which then moved into the world of sports and entertainment then moved out to the Middle East worked for Saudi Telecom for a long while kind of leading their sponsorship and sport portfolio everything they invested in and how they activated it. And I thought, you know, that's pretty much where my trajectory will take me kind of through the sports industry and continue in that room. I'm a massive sports fan, love sports. So, yeah, I, you know, exactly what that looked like.
2:48Rory MacFadyen:Probably set up my own sports partnerships agency or work for a major sports rights holder. I then joined a startup called the Icon Series post STC. And that was kind of first time moving rights holder side. So I had both sides of the coin. I never expected to be running an apparel brand, that's for sure. So yeah, I would say probably continuing that corporate journey in the world of sport.
3:12Alex Chisnall:It'll be interesting when we get to it to chat about how you switched then, especially if you didn't think you'd ever be doing anything like this. But at what point then did sustainability stop becoming an interest to you and actually start becoming a bit of a mission?
3:29Rory MacFadyen:um i think i having worked in the sports industry i saw the huge volumes of kit team kit merchandise that was being produced and it didn't sit right with me and i thought this something's not quite right here like what happens to all this stuff and i started kind of investigating like what happens to all this stuff when it's um uh at the end of the season when logos change and things like that and that was kind of like something that i was interested and passionate about I'm passionate about sustainability. I don't drive a car, live a very simplified lifestyle and have done for a long while. And yeah, I think I always had an interest, but again, I never thought I would probably move into the space of creating a disruptive brand in that space until that happened.
4:12Rory MacFadyen:So yeah, I think really the spark moment, and we can go into that if you like, of the Genesis moment of Reflow was really the first time I thought, actually I can do something about this.
4:22Alex Chisnall:Yeah, I was literally, you've teed me up because the next question was what was the the screw it just do it moment where you you went from thinking about reflow to actually starting the thing you know like what was you know the kind of big domino that that you knocked over and made everything happen yeah so um kind of two things
4:40Rory MacFadyen:happened reflow is myself and my best friend um we've been best friends since school uh we went to school in sunny sussex um and are uh both moved to dubai at similar times around 13 years ago he was working for a company that made bottled water and he was having a juxtaposition in his head the better I'm doing at my job the more single-use plastic gets created. That came to a head when a load of water got imported into the UAE, had a labelling issue and he was told by the distributor here you've got two options, incinerate or landfill and he went well that doesn't fit right with me, that doesn't make sense, what can I do to change that?
5:15Rory MacFadyen:So he went on a mission, found a company that would take all the plastic and went asked what they were going to do with it and said well we'll recycle it and turn it into fabrics at the same time i was working the icon series as i kind of previously mentioned and did have a real interest in sustainability but kind of one of the core moments was we were trying to kit the teams out in apparel um and uh a lot of the players were i can't wear that brand can't wear that brand can't wear that brand having worked with a lot of athletes and seen athlete contracts over the years um i knew there were um there's no such thing as a blanket non-compete so i knew there was an opportunity that yes these players won't be allowed to wear certain brands but why can't i create a brand which i can put on the back of some of the biggest athletes in the world through that so um the that was i was thinking in my head i'd quite like to create a golf wear brand and i'd quite like it to be different and i wasn't quite sure how i wanted it to be different until pete came to me and said look i found this company that could turn unlimited amounts of plastic waste into performance fabrics and i was like well i'm thinking of making a golf wear brand and that was the genesis moment and from that moment we really dug deep into it one of the very first things pete says i don't really play golf uh so can we dial into something I know he's passionate about sustainability as am I, but, um, Pete's in the gym seven days a week.
6:24Rory MacFadyen:If you see the two of us next to each other, you'd be able to go, that guy's on the golf course and that guy's.
6:30Alex Chisnall:You take your cap off and you've got one of those tans, uh, the, the pro players. Exactly.
6:34Rory MacFadyen:And he's wearing a skin tight gin top and, uh, if I wore it, no one would be, no one would be happy about that. Um, and, uh, and the two ideas came together. And so like we got discussing this performance wear brand, we didn't want to be a golf wear brand, we performance wear brand. We started really looking at the fundamental issues that affected the sportswear industry and found them to be huge and varied from logistics, supply chain, operations, packaging, what the fabrics are made out of, how they're dyed, where they're manufactured, the power sources to where you're manufacturing. There's huge amounts of issues that have existed for decades and continue to exist.
7:11Rory MacFadyen:We looked at the incumbent brands, the big dogs, your Nikes, your Adidas. They have been doing this for 50 years and they haven't changed too much in that. Then we looked at the new kids on the block, you know, the likes of a Gymshark or a Castor. Essentially, they're doing the same thing that Nike and Adidas have been doing for 50 years, but just with a lot of different positioning and marketing, which is great. And they're brands I truly admire. Don't get me wrong. I'm not poo-pooing them at all. But in terms of doing something better for the environment and reducing this impact that the sportswear industry has, we didn't feel there was enough being done.
7:40Rory MacFadyen:And we looked around and we didn't see anyone really trying to do anything. And that's when we went, hang on a second, we can do something here. We can create a challenger brand, which hopefully changes an industry. Maybe looking at a parallel of Tesla in the automotive industry. Tesla, you know, when they entered the market, the only option was a Toyota Prius. And people only drove that because it was their only option if they wanted a more sustainable vehicle. Tesla created a more sustainable vehicle that looked good, performed well, had the latest technology, was aspirational and ultimately created a cult-like following, which went mass and flipped the entire industry on its head.
8:10Rory MacFadyen:And we went, well, why can't we do that for the sportswear space? And that was the kind of initial, that was probably a year condensed into a couple of minutes. But yeah, that was kind of the initial spark moment that got us going, right, let's do this.
8:23Alex Chisnall:And how long from that idea and then all of the, you know, the research and the kind of digging into it, how long did it take before you had a product? And were you both, did you carry on working like full-time jobs and doing this, you know, in the evenings and at the weekends and stuff?
8:40Rory MacFadyen:yeah absolutely so uh it was probably two and a half years i'd say from idea to launch um because we wanted to get it right and we you know there was a misconception it wasn't a misconception at all like sustainable fabrics don't perform as well don't look as good um are scratchy things like that so we spent a long time looking at kind of fabric development to make sure that any fabric that we had it's something we still spend a long time on um is uh is as good if not better than the incumbent. So there was a whole period of like two and a half years of graft and working pretty relentlessly evenings and weekends.
9:16Rory MacFadyen:And both Pete and I had a full-time job to this year. We ran the business for three years with full-time jobs. So yeah, we launched just over four years ago. And yeah, three years of that, we were both working.
9:31Alex Chisnall:Wow, wow, wow. And were there moments in there where you questioned it or you parked it even and then revisited it? Were there any doubts? There must have been some along the way between one of both of you.
9:44Rory MacFadyen:never if i'm honest uh we never doubted it we're single-minded that this is something that's needed um and uh yeah we never parked it or you know we went pretty full steam ahead um and we've been super bullish on it um i think when we launched we realized exactly what we thought reflow was going to be which was probably in our head a direct consumer brands mainly saying off reflow.com that the opportunity was far bigger than we kind of ever really positioned it as um so yeah we never had a kind of like you know for the first you know you've you kind of feel like you're pushing a boulder up a hill for a long while um uh especially pre-launch and getting people to take you seriously and speaking to people you know in the in that two and a half years the amount of people we spoke to who were like oh okay good luck guys uh you know and we use that tesla analogy even you know before we launched and people like wait a second you're saying you're going to create the tesla of the of the performance respects all right good luck um and you know that as an entrepreneur I think you face rejection more than uh most people in life uh and um yeah that two and a half years was definitely filled with some but then there was also some people who backed us immediately were like yeah guys go out and smash this um so as well as there being rejection there was an insane amount of positivity that we encountered as well and I'd actually say more positivity than negativity and do you think interestingly
11:02Alex Chisnall:enough do you think that positivity comes i don't want to slate the uk or the attitude but from maybe being where you are living in the middle east compared to what it might have been like living in the uk at all so do you think there's any element of that yeah absolutely um we're a
11:18Rory MacFadyen:registered business and most of our employees are in the uk so we work a lot across the uk and the middle east they're two um uh um two kind of core markets for us um the uk definitely has an element of tall poppy syndrome of like um people put their head above the parapet and do something different um are um are kind of a target um whereas the middle east is definitely different when you're an entrepreneur and you're doing something different people are like yeah that's awesome i want to back you the u.s is the same some of our early times in america uh they support the entrepreneur they they love it the uk has got a kind of strange approach to entrepreneurs and that is from kia starmer all the way down to the average person if i'm honest and what moment
12:01Alex Chisnall:did you feel like you know and i totally get that you know i think this is my fifth business with the festival of entrepreneurs since i left corporate life at virgin atlantic but you know pushing that boulder up the hill i totally get that at what point did you feel that you you kind of balanced it out and you you felt you you had some like forward momentum in those like kind of two and
12:19Rory MacFadyen:a half three years um i think once we could show people actual product uh we spent so long being intricate about what the product was and how it looked and it's funny i say that now i uh look at some of the product we originally created now that we've got a full team of product designers and product developers and garment technologists and go oh god some of that wasn't very good that wasn't what we did we didn't come from that background uh so when we had actual products in hand to show people people were like oh okay this is real um and some of the product by the way i'm still super proud of this hoodie i'm wearing right now is the was from our launch collection for in a bit years and i wear it day in day out and you know it's still as as perfect as it was the day it came out the packet box fresh to me yeah yeah so i mean um yeah there's that that was kind of the moment people went yeah okay that's legit but i think until we had a fully fledged website launched um we people kind of were still questioning and we had um a mindset that when we did launch we didn't want to look like a startup um and that was something that we've always kind of positioned is we want to look bigger than we are.
13:26Rory MacFadyen:So when we launched, even though it was two of us and we both had full-time jobs, we wanted someone to look at this and go, they're legit. And that paid off because within our first three months of operating, we had an email from the Australian Open Tennis on the Contact Us section of our website saying, we love what you're doing, can we work with you? And we had an email from the WM Phoenix Open in the state's most sustainable golf event in the world, the biggest attended golf event outside the majors, also saying, we love what you're doing, can we work with you? So that approach of trying to look bigger than we are definitely paid dividends.
13:57Alex Chisnall:And did you reach out to both of those or did they come onto the radar from launch?
14:04Rory MacFadyen:They went on reflow.com, went on contact us and sent an email, sent a link from there. I remember the WM Phoenix Open one was particularly funny because as I mentioned, Pete's not a massive golf fan. It went into his inbox and he forwarded me on, onto me saying, is this a big deal? And I was like, yeah.
14:23Alex Chisnall:no it's a little feeder tournament you know into you know in the colleges or something wow that's that's crazy so what did you do right about launch then what was yeah what was your launch like to kind of grab that kind of attention then to make yourself look 100x bigger than you
14:38Rory MacFadyen:actually were people could see that we were trying to do something different that definitely helped which created some momentum um i personally was sending samples to various journalists i like so in the in the states um for uh golf month no who does she work for now i can't remember where she's gone but it's a lady called um avril dubsek who is now a long driver but she's a golf journalist and we just sent her a load of stuff and it ended up on usa today um of like and it was you know saying this doesn't feel like recycled fabric it's battery soft and uh perfect and i was like okay that helped um but we just pushed every lever we could we also invested a lot in our initial website and what's hilarious about our initial website is it was terrible for a direct to consumer website it didn't sell very well uh the conversion rate was low but it looked insane uh so if someone was coming to buy something it was probably not the best experience and if you look our website now versus then our website now is far more optimized for e-com but then we it was almost like a shop front of this is reflow and this is who we are so it was very different than it is now and i think that helped so when a big organization clicked on it um we also wanted you We could have launched with three products.
15:46Rory MacFadyen:We should have probably launched with three products because we were still learning how to develop product. But we said we can't look like a brand that someone clicks on or a customer clicks on. They go, oh, they've got a t-shirt, a polo shirt, and a hoodie. We could also have launched with a white label product. We could have gone and tried to source an existing product and stuck our logo on and gone, we're a brand, which is so much of. I see so much of that today where I can tell you where that product comes from. I'm like, that's a color hoodie with your logo one. that's not launching a clothing brand um but uh yeah so i think it was a sum of its parts and also i've been in the golf industry for a while and the sportswear industry for a while that it wasn't like just some random dude i think i had a bit of a positive reputation if you like people kind of knew kind of roughly who i was in the industry uh in the sports journalism industry and that helped as well because it you know people were willing to have a conversation that they might not normally open the door.
16:40Rory MacFadyen:Great question. I want to say, I can't, it's been that long, I can't really remember. Probably around 15 to 20. And it can come in a size break from small to double XL. So when you look at a SKU count there, you know, 100 plus SKUs by launch.
16:58Alex Chisnall:It's interesting because when I was at Virgin Startup and I was, I started off as a mentor, then I became a business advisor and then they got me to set up my own business and I ran like nine of the counties for Virgin Star. They were kind of focusing on London and I was from Liverpool down to Brighton. But the interesting thing there was I could tell you literally every single day of the week, and I was there like five and a half years, I think, someone would come to us with an idea for a clothing brand. And honestly, some of them were like ridiculous in that I would say like something crazy, like 75, 80 % of people literally thought they could just go, yeah, I'm launching this collection.
17:35Alex Chisnall:It's a polo shirt. and it's got CC on it in gold lettering. You're like, right, and?
Read the full transcript
17:41Rory MacFadyen:Yeah, what's the business?
17:42Alex Chisnall:What's the business? What are you doing? But interestingly, Castor came from a£25 ,000 Virgin startup loan and they're now like, what, something like 700 million valuation or more than that maybe these days, I don't know.
17:55Rory MacFadyen:Yeah, a billion dollar valuation they hit. Lots of admiration for what those guys are building.
18:00Alex Chisnall:And are they not, you mentioned them earlier and I thought I'll revisit it in a bit, but those guys in Gymshark, have they embraced sustainability at all or are they still very much just another version of Nike, Adidas, Puma, etc., etc.?
18:13Rory MacFadyen:I'm not under the radar on it. It's like under the radar, under the hood, if you like, to really give you an answer. And I wouldn't want to speak badly of any other people that they are and they aren't doing, if I'm honest. Because from what we can see, no one is to the level that we are. For us, it's every business decision we make. It's everything from packaging to product to logistics and everything in between. So, you know, I can say that there's no one else out there doing it to the level that we are. But I wouldn't want to go into the intricacies of what each and every brand is doing because that's not my place to.
18:51Rory MacFadyen:But I can only really talk about what we do and why that's different. And we know it's different.
18:55Alex Chisnall:That's the right way to approach it, I think. And was there, you know, in the four year journey, was there a this might fail, but I'm doing it anyway moment for yourself or either of you that you chatted about.
19:08Rory MacFadyen:I think there's always moments where you're like, how do we take this to the next level? I think early on we went through a stage of winning every partnership pitch that we ever went into. And we were like, well, this is easy. And then it became tougher and we had to pitch harder and our win rate dropped massively and you're a bit like oh okay this is a bit odd but then that's kind of tied his turn to go you've got some partners who are up for taking a risk and doing things a bit differently and then you need your proven track record to deliver them to then go and speak to the next one so um yeah uh i've never say i've had a moment where i've thought this whole thing's going to fall on this ass um and uh i'm generally quite an optimistic and and level-headed and calm person um and there's always a solution to any scenario you find yourself in i i had an amazing boss uh for in two of my companies when i was um kind of a grad growing up shout out to charlotte burley um she would always say to me and the same in this scenario we're not saving lives um and that gave me a really you know yes care about your job yes be passionate yes be good at your job um but you know at the end of the day we're not saving lives so uh that kind of gave me a really good calm perspective on things.
20:26Rory MacFadyen:And I'd like to think one of my superpowers is being able to take a step back and not get too involved in the moment and the weeds and into a moment of like, God, this is really bad. Like, oh, we're owed 1.8 million pounds by customers. Ah, this is terrible. It's like, no, how do we go and get that? You know, that's my philosophy.
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21:20Alex Chisnall:Plus, signing up for an account is completely free and there are no ongoing monthly fees. You've got 60 days from sign up to use them. Head to worldfirst.com forward slash screw it and get your 50 fee-free business transactions. Now back to the podcast. And what does that pressure look like for you now? You've obviously gone, both of you gone full-time in the business and you talk about, you know, in the early days, you know, like winning every pitch and then obviously that's going to change over time that's that's not sustainable right but yeah what does what does pressure look like you talk about being you know being able to kind of distance yourself and be calm but yeah compared to the early days like when you first
21:58Rory MacFadyen:started what does pressure look like for you now um yeah really good question i think um you know we have a lot of people that work for us and a lot of people whose livelihoods depend on us and that's pressure, huge pressure. And like, I feel that day in, day out, for sure. I think the one thing that we realized last year is that we were both became so focused on running a business that we weren't selling, like going out and selling what we do as two co-founders. So we definitely split roles a little bit to change functions. So Pete took on the CEO role, which allowed me to kind of go and be the co-founder, if you like, and go out and have the meetings and go and pitch what we do and sell what we do.
22:39Rory MacFadyen:You know, I'm a very creative person. I still have a lot of creative direction within the business, but we were just managing people. And so for a long while, I think a lot of the pressure we felt was like, well, I'm just now a people manager and a process manager. And we were like, took a stay back and went, well, who, you know, we have a team going out there, but there's a superpower in being a founder or a co-founder that you can enter a room and have a conversation with someone at a different level than any employee ever can. And we weren't there with that. So, you know, some of the pressure I've given myself this year this pressure I want is to go out and do that again um you know that is something I've already done I was in China in the first week of the year visiting all of our suppliers and manufacturing base growing relationships with them founder level stuff I was in Munich last week with Harry Kane our lead ambassador and investor you know can we've become mates over the years but like you know talking to him about what's next and fostering things there I'm in the UK next week and I'm meeting partners, I'm meeting suppliers, I'm getting my face out there, which I kind of stopped doing a little bit last year because I was so busy running a business.
23:40Rory MacFadyen:So yeah, pressure changes and your mindset changes and the size of the prize changes as well, right? The size of the opportunity changes, the size of everything changes.
23:50Alex Chisnall:Yeah, and I agree with that. Like you, I've been in that stage where you suddenly realize that you've become a people manager and you're like, this isn't why I started the business. And you become, and for me, that's why I kind of ended up, you know, winding down podcast production agency was that you just become so involved in the weeds of the business that it doesn't become a fun, a fun thing to do anymore. And you're dealing with the minutiae and you're like, that's not what you should be doing as a founder of the business. And I totally agree with you. I always just think I'm the best person to actually sell the business.
24:26Alex Chisnall:You know, whether that's going on a podcast, whether that's having the meeting. um you know all of those things um what would you say to somebody sitting on an idea they're sat there thinking i'm just going to wait till the perfect time till all my ducks are lined up in a
24:41Rory MacFadyen:row there's never a perfect time i mean it's the there's never a perfect time uh when we decided to do this covid hit right and actually maybe that was helpful in the end but it made supply chain and products and all that type of stuff ridiculous when we had our our first shipment was about to arrived the containers were about to ship containers were the most expensive they've ever been in the world because ppe was being shipped all around the world like there's never going to be a perfect time absolutely never will be a perfect time um it's it's hard um you know one thing i would say is entrepreneurialism and this like life of it isn't as glamorous as it sounds um people think it's glamorous and fun and and it it can be glamorous and fun um but be prepared especially when they hear you're living in Dubai yeah I mean there's times when we were uh in that launch period where I didn't leave my house for a week and I worked 14 to 16 hour days for a week and I ground and ground and ground till I burnt myself out like and was in not a great headspace but I was still trying to grow a business so uh it's not easy like there is a uh uh I think there's this kind of like whole hustle culture now that you know people on insta are like go do this this is easy you can just go and do that It ain't.
25:53Rory MacFadyen:And your life will never be the same again. And, you know, I like it. You know, I like that style of things, but I am the worst at forgetting to balance everything. So, yeah, you have to purposely make time to balance. And you have this weird feeling of guilt that I get. And I've had to train myself not to feel is when I'm enjoying myself away from work, I should be working. And that is such a weird thing I've never had before in my life. I've always cared about my job. I've always been, I like to think good at my job, but I never felt what I feel now.
26:30Alex Chisnall:Yeah, yeah. It's funny, like I mentioned to you earlier, my best mate who lives in Dubai is out on the golf course in Portugal with his wife and three boys, but he's still sending me messages on WhatsApp, like in between the holes going, I've just thought of this great idea for the podcast we're getting launched, da-da-da-da, or we need to get out to Australia, host a dinner take one of these guys who's going to be the ambassador and I'm like dude just relax but I know what it's like myself right I think like I said fifth iteration of a business and it's just like that you can't literally can't can you
27:03Rory MacFadyen:you can't I mean I had 1am last night and I messaged our leadership team and said I've got an idea can we do it and yeah it never stops and if it does stop then you're probably in the wrong place yeah
27:15Alex Chisnall:and I also think you know balance we're always kind of trying to you know balance that up fully enough and for me other than the horrendous weather we got in the uk at the moment is that every friday since 2020 um me and three best mates would literally finish work at like 12 1 whatever time it was in the year and go and play golf and it just was a bookend to the week it closed off that week and started the weekend for us and it became you know you would just protect that at all costs you know um and i also know like you said at certain stages of your life there isn't the balance because it's it's all work or if you are going on holiday um and you've got you know kids family etc um or you're with other people then you do need to focus more on that but again it doesn't need to be 100 right it could be 80 20 it can be 70 30 whatever it is but at different points in your life different things are going to be more
28:11Rory MacFadyen:important right for sure and you can never switch off right it's it's a it's like another kid it's like uh yeah um you'll never switch off i can't switch off like that's my reality um because even if i try i put my phone on you know if we go away for a weekend or go on holiday in fact i had my first ever holiday last year since launching reflow where i didn't check my emails for two days
28:32Alex Chisnall:did you how many days two he managed to well yeah yeah it was nice it was really nice it was um i
28:41Rory MacFadyen:i went for dinner one night and left my phone in the hotel safe and i was like i feel liberated And then two days later, I got back on my phone and no more service to Zoom.
28:49Alex Chisnall:I always like the, again, my mate's like messaging me when he's on that flight from like London to Dubai on Emirates. And I was just like, dude, like when I fly over to Dubai or wherever I go, I said, for me, I will not go on the Wi-Fi. For me, I will watch three movies. And that is like, I could be quite happy to turn around and go back and watch another three movies. It's like, it's almost like golden again, that kind of time. I was like, I don't want to be contacted. um what's one thing you wish you'd known before you started the business about entrepreneurship
29:20Rory MacFadyen:and being a business owner do you think how hard it is if i'm honest uh yeah how hard it is there's a very funny line that pete reminds me of all the time uh where when we were building this out as an idea i said to him how hard can this be and he went i think it's quite hard but um especially the apparel industry because of the numerous reasons of stock holdings and skews and size breaks and colors and you know it changed for us and changes what people like changes consistently um so it's a really hard industry and i don't think uh he reminds me of that whenever we're in a you know a bit tough it always joking said remember that time you said how hard can this be and that yeah i remember um but i mean if it was easy everyone would do it hey so uh that's a
30:02Alex Chisnall:a moat of some variety exactly that um and if you had to start again tomorrow would there be
30:07Rory MacFadyen:anything you do differently or not if i could relive all of my life again from tomorrow i wouldn't change a single thing um i'm a believer in everything happens for a reason being through massive adversities in life being through highs being through lows uh but they make you the person you are today and they make uh the opportunity that you are today like you are you're a person of your environment and well your environment doesn't have to be perfect but it crafts and hones who you are as a human being um and where you are in life and i'm i'm a happy person i'm happy where i am in life i'm um you know grafting to build something that's going to change an industry i'm working my ass off to do that but um i wouldn't change a thing no like even mistakes that we've made they've looked they've taught us things and they you know one door closes three more opens or one door opens and five more open um so yeah hindsight is a wonderful thing but it's
30:58Alex Chisnall:not something i pay much attention to no we we are where we're meant to be right in a great scheme of things and and i'm i'm like you you you either if you fail you learn and it it doesn't matter as long as you you do take that lesson and implement it in some way shape or form um let's talk a little bit about um you know growing scaling the business rory you mentioned earlier um investors and you mentioned harry kane um how did you um you know get going with the business did you bootstrap it the pair of you to start with then you did you then do like a family and friends um what are your plans to come up to to grow the business and kind of fuel that journey because you obviously got you know massive ambitions i love the tagline that you mentioned in the in the first in the first question that i asked you so yeah maybe lean into that a little bit if you can
31:44Rory MacFadyen:sure so yeah when we first started it was bootstrapped by myself and pete uh we put a lot of our life savings into it we've remortgaged houses and sold houses and stuff to to do it we We also pretty early, like around launch time when we knew we needed to kick on, once we had this idea and kind of a bit of a proof of concept, we did a bit of a friends and family investment round. And we was super beneficial that a lot of people around us believed in what we were doing and invested in that. So actually, if you look at our cap table, a lot of our shareholders are friends and family who came in, you know, some of them 500 quid, super, super early doors.
32:20Rory MacFadyen:um we uh have raised as we've kind of gone bits to keep up with growth like growth capital um mentioned harry kane became our lead ambassador and investor he played in that first icon series event i mentioned absolutely loved the gear um and then approached us and said i love what you guys are doing uh i love what you stand for tell me more about the brand that led to about a year of conversation uh he and then invested and he's actively involved in the business he's a great guy his team were an extension of our team um you know he's the perfect investor if you ask me i i uh the added value that brings and just he's a top bloke right at the end of the day and he it's the epitome of performance um so uh yeah so that that happened um and we've raised uh we've been approached a lot over the years um about kind of added value investors and some kind of supplies there's a few other people that exist on our cap table um but our um you know we're now looking ahead and looking at growth and we're about to launch a crowdfund so by the time this podcast is live we'll be fundraising on crowdcube um it was it was very intentional we've grown an amazing community of people who believe in the brand um and who buy regularly and i was doing a piece of work the other day where i was looking at uh you know our regular purchases on reflow.com uh you know there's someone who's made over 70 purchases like 70 individual orders uh it's probably about 180 pieces of refo uh refo garments um over three years since he's been buying it's crazy um and there's lots of that lots of those stories we're like well we built this amazing community of people who are actively engaged in what we're doing and why we're doing it let's build into that and give people the opportunity to be part of that journey with us um but also build more people like that you know a crowd it was an amazing way of attracting new people into that community as well as engaging your existing community so yeah that will launch in the next week or two.
34:14Rory MacFadyen:And we're super excited for it.
34:15Alex Chisnall:And yeah, I know those guys at CrowdQ actually. And if you've done crowdfunding before with somebody else or this is the first time, okay, yeah. I think it's perfect, especially for what you're doing, for people who are actively doing golf, et cetera, active, and they want to buy into what they're wearing. And it's a lifestyle, right? So I think that should go really well for you. So I wish you well, and we'll make sure that we put the links for that when this comes out live. So everybody watching and listening now, make sure you read the description at the side if you'd like to get involved. What will success actually look like for you in the next five to ten years, do you think?
35:01Alex Chisnall:And is that different to what it maybe looked like four years ago when you started, Rory?
35:06Rory MacFadyen:I still think this North Star of changing an industry and flipping an industry on its head is where we want to go to. And like, I want the positive impact that we create, not just by what Reflow are doing, but also make other brands feel like they need to do better as well. And the industry overall improving. So for me, I'm quite single minded in that. And, you know, we're a business that's creating positive impact. So, you know, I'd like I would like that to be the case. like you know uh i'd love it for us to continue to scale continue to grow become a household name um and a recognizable name for sure um that's super important um but yeah i think you know i'll be proud if i look back in 30 years time and how long have i been 30 years i'll be 70 so nearly 70 60 68 um and if i'm retired at 68 and look back and reflow is still thriving and still driving positive impact and innovative and continues to lead the way in what they do then um that will be success for me.
36:04Alex Chisnall:And for those listening again, like how do you, you know, when people talking, and one of the questions I was going to ask, but I missed it out, was like, you know, did you have any ambassadors when you launched the brands? But then to get somebody like a Harry Kane on board who, you know, England captain, right? The world's most popular sport and everybody knows, you know, he's mad about his golf, a big American football fan. I'm like a huge American football fan. Even though I'm Welsh, I think he's a great guy right I really respect him I saw something popped up on my Instagram the other day I messaged Matt our mutual friend about it actually and he was on a putting green and it looked bloody freezing I don't know where it was but it looked absolutely up there
36:45Rory MacFadyen:it was in Munich
36:45Alex Chisnall:was that the Munich one oh I see and this had a shitload of snow right
36:49Rory MacFadyen:we shot that at the end of last year it was probably we did something with Ladbible and him so yeah that would have probably been it was freezing
36:57Alex Chisnall:you can confirm it was freezing but how do you get that on somebody like that's radar is that through connections um and it's not what you know it's who you know or is it just the the kind of ripple effect of the um yeah the marketing of the
37:13Rory MacFadyen:brand that you've had i had no connection with harry before the icon series and him wearing the product was a genuine catalyst to him wanting to and hearing about it uh to him to get involved a funny thing in that event he was actually the only athlete who had a contract which would prohibit him from wearing at the other brand so we had to iron the logos off his clothes the night before the event um so uh but he still tried them on and still was like this is sick this like i love the fit of them um they did look incredible on him it was like almost like it's perfectly tailored to him um but also he believes in our mission he is a uh a father of four and um you know believes in a better future so um yeah he that came around because of genuine he liked what we were doing he liked the clothes and believed in what we were doing and that was
37:56Alex Chisnall:that was that and I think it's a sort of friend of mine Simon Squibb was saying you know the other day you know people say you know I'm lucky and he's like I find the harder that I work the more luck comes my way and I thought you know some opportunity like that that arrives and then you become you know like mutual attraction but that again that's only going to happen because you're working your ass off right and good good things are going to happen I completely agree with that
38:21Rory MacFadyen:I've I've had people tell me a lot over my career as well that you know you just have so happen to be in the right place at the right time or you kind of you get good luck and it's like well yeah you've got to put yourselves in those positions and um you can't put yourself in those positions if if you're not getting yourself out there if you're not a good bloke i think that's a something i strongly believe in is that i want um and throughout my career you know i've always treated people with respect i've always uh helped people where i possibly can and then when it came to do our thing people were keen to help us um and it's the same with me yeah pete is exactly the same as you know he's my best mate in the world i think the world of him and i think you know we get on so well because we're very similar we're very value driven um and uh yeah i think you make your own luck by being who you are and what you do and the way you behave and and how hard you work
39:11Alex Chisnall:i think they're all things that come together yeah agreed agreed um well look um thanks for time we've got a quick fire round to finish um first question being um what is an entrepreneur
39:23Rory MacFadyen:for you how do you classify an entrepreneur a risk taker who likes to build value nice like that haven't had that before um what is a scale-up business uh proof of concept has been hit and you are taking it to the next level of scale and profitability very good um what do you think
39:41Alex Chisnall:especially with your perspective being in dubai for a number of years what do you think the uk can do more of to encourage more startups, scale-ups, unicorn businesses?
39:52Rory MacFadyen:Support the entrepreneur, support the value builders, the growers, the risk takers. And yeah, don't this tall poppy syndrome, get rid of it. Don't knock people for trying to do something different and better.
40:06Alex Chisnall:And you feel being in Dubai, for example, being in the Middle East, you feel supported as a business owner, as an entrepreneur?
40:12Rory MacFadyen:Absolutely, yeah. I mean, this part of the world is really dialed into entrepreneurialism. And to an extent we do in the UK, we're a UK based business at the end of the day. And things like CIS and EIS have been super valuable to us. But yeah, I think there's definitely more of a supportive ecosystem for entrepreneurs and startups here than in the UK.
40:32Alex Chisnall:Fantastic. A question I always ask at the end, and you can think about it and come back to me, but having been on the show now, anyone you think would be a good guest, let me know. we always love getting um new stories of um who our audience haven't heard of before so
40:47Rory MacFadyen:have you ever spoken to the guys from batch the suit company no no i haven't okay there you go there's your answer the boys from batch based in london i wear two brands i wear reflow and i wear batch i've got five of their suits uh they're very like casual tailoring but like um i they're super cool guys um uh get on really well with them and try and catch up with them whenever i can speak to Julian probably almost weekly on WhatsApp. I'm a black card holder now. I bought that many suits. So yeah, they're top blokes in building something really cool.
41:21Alex Chisnall:Amazing. No, we'd love to get them on. Much appreciated indeed. Well, look, Rory, good luck with the crowdfunding. Good luck with the growth of the business. I love the mission. And given what's come across during this conversation, I've no doubt that you and Pete will reach your goals. So thanks once again for coming on the show.
41:39Rory MacFadyen:Really appreciate that. And thanks for having me on. It's always great to be able to tell the story.
41:43Alex Chisnall:If this conversation resonated with you, don't just sit there, act on it. Make sure you follow or subscribe for more game-changing conversations. And remember, the only thing standing between you and your business breakthrough is the decision to screw it and just do it.
From the publisher
Rory MacFadyen never planned to run an apparel brand.
He was on a solid corporate trajectory in sport. Middle East sponsorship deals. Major events. A comfortable path.
Then he saw the scale of waste in sportswear.
At the same time, his best friend Pete discovered how to turn unlimited plastic waste into performance fabric.
That was the spark.
In this episode of Screw It Just DO It, Rory shares how Reflo was born, why they spent two and a half years developing sustainable performance fabrics before launching, and how they went from being doubted to landing partnerships with the Australian Open and the WM Phoenix Open.
We talk about rejection, tall poppy syndrome in the UK, raising growth capital, bringing Harry Kane in as an investor, and why entrepreneurship is far harder than people think.
This is not a fast-fashion story.
It’s about long-term thinking, graft, resilience, and trying to flip an industry on its head.
Key Takeaways
• Why there is never a perfect time to launch
• How to build credibility before you look big
• Why founders must sell, not just manage
• The truth about hustle culture and burnout
• How to build a brand rooted in mission, not marketing
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👉 Create a free account and claim the offer at worldfirst.com/screwit
🎧 Listen to the full episode of Screw It Just DO It
🎟️ Join us at the Festival of Entrepreneurs, November 3–4 at NEC Birmingham
👉 www.festivalofentrepreneurs.co.uk
