What Elite Sport Teaches You About Building a Business with Matt Richards MBE

0:00What stops founders from building something meaningful isn't the lack of ideas, it's the fear of getting started. I'm Alex Chisnell and this is Screw It, Just Do It, the podcast for people who are ready to stop waiting, take action and make things happen. I just kind of sat back one day and I was like, this is really, really frustrating. This whole experience that I've ever had, all the way through my career of trying to find sponsorships and events and campaigns and basically earnings opportunities as an athlete can be really difficult. There's got to be a better way for this to be done. In the moment, I was really disappointed to have missed out on gold by such a small margin.

0:40And I remember just being absolutely gutted in that moment and just being so frustrated and disappointed. It's an incredible performance and something that I'll be extremely proud of for the rest of my life. My first Olympics, I won one Olympic gold. Second Olympics, I won a gold and a silver. Third Olympics, I don't want to do gold, silver, bronze. I'd much rather go to gold. But, you know, look, I think moving into that next Olympics, the success for me in LA would be.

1:28doing anything internationally, this is well worth a look. World First have given us an exclusive offer for podcast listeners to get 50 transactions completely fee-free for 60 days. Head to worldfirst.com forward slash screw it to create a free account and claim now. Now let's jump into the main conversation. So Matt, looking back, what was the first real screw it, just do it moment in your swimming career when you decided to take a massive leap and really absolutely go for it? I think I've always been very ambitious. It's probably the best way to start off. We've got a close family friend who I used to swim with when I was much, much younger.

2:07And she remembered and told us about this after my first Olympic Games, that leading into my first ever swimming gala when I was eight years old, I went to the competition, got absolutely battered by all the other kids there. And then on the bus on the way back with the rest of the team, apparently I announced to everybody on the bus that I was going to be an Olympic champion one day. And then 10 years later, when I was 18 years old, I became Olympic champion. Obviously, at that time, I had no idea what that really meant to be an Olympic champion and the journey that I would have to go on to get there.

2:39But I think it's safe to say I've always been pretty ambitious. And I think the sort of specific moment of when I really just wanted to take the leap and go for it, it'd be really hard to pin down. But I think I've always been somebody that's not afraid to throw myself at something and see how it goes. And, you know, sometimes that doesn't work. But I found most of the time, actually, it either does work or you get pretty close to it and learn loads from it. So, yeah, that probably answers the question as best as I can, really. Yeah, yeah. And where do you think that belief came from? Like when you were, was it eight you said that you said that?

3:19Can you kind of pinpoint that now or is that kind of like lost in youth? uh probably probably the correct answer is delusion at the time um but to be to be honest with you i think i'm very fortunate i've always had a really really supportive family uh you know and they've always very much sort of bit of the attitude that if you can dream it you can do it uh and to to believe in yourself and to back yourself and and you know if you throw yourself at something and really give it everything you've got that there's no reason why you can't achieve it and i think um growing up in that kind of environment and with with that kind of attitude from the family that raised me, you know, kind of shaped that attitude for me, not just in sport, but just, you know, in life in general, really.

3:59And I think, you know, it's something I still very much try to embody now, obviously, you know, as everybody does still, there's times where I'll have doubts, you know, and question myself and, and, you know, question my ability. But I think grounding myself in that self-belief has taken me to places that, you know, I could only have dreamed of back, you know, many years ago. When was the last time you doubted yourself in your swimming career, would you say? Good question. Probably the last sort of major time was just before the 200 free final in the Paris Olympic Games in 2024. So going into that competition, I was in a really good place, really good shape.

4:36Everything was looking great. I won the world championships on the 2-3 the year before. So I was going in as the reigning world champ. However, got to the competition and as lots of people did, wasn't feeling the best. You know, picked up some of the horribleness that was going around the village at the time. And going into that two-three final, in the semifinal, I barely made it through. So I think I was seventh into the final. I felt horrendous in the semifinal. I remember turning at 100 meters of this 200-meter race and thinking, this is awful. I'm not going to make it back. I was behind the pack, if you like.

5:09And I remember consciously thinking to myself that I'm the world champion. I'm not even going to make the final this year. And I'm really sort of doubting myself in that moment. Managed to get through and scrape into the final. But that evening, there was a lot of self-doubt, and I really wasn't sure if I was going to be able to deliver anywhere near the performance that I'd need to come away with a win the next evening. And then working through that and figuring out how to find that self-belief again in a time where it wasn't there naturally was a real challenge, but something that I've learned so much from.

5:41In the next evening, then I went on to win silver, two one-hundredths of a second away from winning gold. So obviously, not quite the outcome I was looking for, but still not a bad one. But yeah, like I say, it was a really important part of my career and my life, I think, that 24 hours. Can you remember then, you said like turning 100 metres and like a little snapshot in your mind. It's crazy, isn't it? When you're in that moment and you're obviously uber-focused on what you need to do, but you've still got the good devil and the bad devil chiming in for conversations, right? Yeah, 100%. And I think because obviously swimming is such a lonely sport um you know when you're in the water it's just you there's nobody to talk to you can't hear anything it's just splashing yourself in the pool uh that's all it is and so it is one of those places where it's quite easy to get into that kind of flow state and when you're not thinking but there's also times where you do have to kind of fight with yourself in a race and be able to contend with your own thoughts the good and the bad of those um and that was definitely one of those those moments yeah and well um we'll talk about your transition into the business world and the new business that you're launching and whether I'm sure there are doubts when it comes to that because there's so many things to know, right?

6:57We're starting a business. But before that, a couple more questions. Elite Sport is full of structure, coaches, plans, cycles, goals, et cetera. Did you ever push back against that or Or were you always just comfortable trusting the process? It's a really tough question. I think both at different times. You know, there's some times in your career, I think, where you really do believe in what you're doing. You know, you can trust that process, even when it doesn't seem to be going right in that moment. But you know that you're on the right tracks and you're on that journey to get to where you need to be.

7:34And that comes easily. And then there's other times definitely where, you know, you do have to almost take a step back and be able to re-evaluate something and be able to know whether or not actually maybe this isn't working and we're going down the wrong route here and we might need to pivot a little bit. Or likewise, that actually being able to step back and go, yeah, this doesn't seem quite right, but let's stick at it for a little bit longer and just keep measuring where we're at and see where we're going. So yeah, I think the simplest answer is there's times for both sides, but the difficulty and the challenge, and probably part of why I enjoy so much about it, is figuring out which one of those times it is at any given moment.

8:09Yeah. As you've alluded to, you've kind of experienced, you know, the highest highs of world championships and gold medals and also moments where the margins were clearly bloody brutal. Right. How do you process that now? Like looking back, because it's not that long ago, but it is long ago, I suppose, in cycles of training, etc. Yeah, 100%. It's a difficult one. I think in the moment I was really disappointed, which is obvious. You'd almost expect that in that moment to have missed out on gold by such a small margin. you know I remember turning around and I thought I'd won I thought when I touched the wall I thought I'd got the touch and I turned around and saw the two next to my name and I remember just being absolutely gutted in that moment and just being so frustrated and disappointed and then when I realized just how close it was even more frustration even more disappointment I think the you know the immediate reaction was was very much a negative one you know I don't think I showed it in the moment I think I did a good job of putting a smile on my face and not showing that but deep down i was really disappointed um you know and i had to turn that around pretty quick because my competition wasn't over we had the four by 200 relay the next day which we went on to go and win um but i had to make sure that i kind of snapped out of that and got back to to the mindset i needed to be in for those other races um but i think to be honest with you in all honesty looking back at it now there is still an element of frustration and disappointment um you know because it is it's so painfully close it almost would have been better if i could have been a second away from winning just so that it was like hey look i gave my best effort it just wasn't there but because it was so close um there's always going to be that that frustration and almost that what if you know what if i you know shaved my eyebrows beforehand would that make the difference who knows um you know and it's almost it's almost that one that i know isn't necessarily fair to look at it that way to myself um but that's almost the the way that your brain works and i think stepping back and looking at it objectively um it's an incredible performance and something that i'll be you know extremely proud of for the rest of my life but um to be to be completely honest, I think the thing that I'm most proud of, of that was the way I was able to turn it around from, from 24 hours before and then still put out the performance that I did to, to get to the result that I got in the end.

10:25Yeah. And perspective gives, gives you that and time gives you that, right. Or otherwise, how are you ever going to get out of that? And I always, you know, think of a sport like, like, like golf where you have like one bad shot, but then you've got to, you've got, you know, another 17 holes to walk to. And if you can't actually consign that to, to the dustbin of history, then your entire next three, four, five hours is absolutely ruined, isn't it? Absolutely. And I've attempted golf every now and again. I feel that pain as well. I've had that plenty of times. Probably far more bad shots than good ones, to be honest.

10:55It's the hardest sport in the world, I'm telling you. Sorry, the most frustrating. I won't say the hardest, the most frustrating sport in the world. Yeah, yeah. Because obviously swimming is the hardest, obviously. Exactly. I'm just playing. And what do you put that down to being able to change your mindset to kind of switch out back then from the result that you got individually to then the relay? Was that the team around you? Was it the team that you were going to be swimming with? Was it, yeah, girlfriends, parents, you know, what was it? Yeah, I think it's a mixture of all of the above, to be fair.

11:37I'm very lucky. I've got some incredible people in my corner, you know, in every aspect, you know, family, you know, close friends, teammates, coaches, support staff, you know, the lot. I'm really lucky in that aspect. And I think it was very much a team effort to turn that around, both, you know, the night before the final of the 2-3 and also then the evening of the 2-3 and turning around that disappointment to be able to get back out and race again the next day. You know, so I think it was a real mixture. probably in that moment had to lean a little bit heavier on my coaches and the team of practitioners that I have around me also because I don't want to lean on my teammates at that point because they've got their own battles that they're fighting and their own demons that I don't want to put mine onto them in that moment but unfortunately for the staff we have around us that is their job for us to throw that at them and make their lives difficult so my psychologist Dr Tom Bates he's he was incredible uh my coach Ryan he was he was phenomenal as well and of course and you know my family and things as well being able to lean on them in that moment and um almost be able to step away from from the outcomes a little bit and just know that regardless of the outcome you know they're always going to be proud of me and they're always going to be you know pleased with whatever outcome I've got provided that you know I've enjoyed it and I'm happy exactly and as a father I could definitely say that it's like that that thing now that I probably wouldn't have known years ago it's like you just want them to be happy you literally do if you're enjoying it and you're happy um then you know it's an absolute godsend um has there been any moments you know off the back of anything uh any any competitions or just the the kind of rigmarole of training where you've you've fallen out of love with your sport i wouldn't say so i wouldn't say so there's definitely been times in the sport where um you know it is it is tough and you're maybe not enjoying things as much as you have done previously.

13:30You know, this time of year is classic for it. This year, I'm actually really enjoying myself, but this time of year can be tough, you know, because it's dark, it's cold, it's raining. You know, you're not on a nice warm weather camp anyway. It's a while until you've got any of the big competitions of the summer. So it can be tough this time of year, to be completely honest. But again, I think just grounding myself in why I do it and why I continue to compete and that being because I love the sport. I love competing. I love what I get to do. And, you know, I couldn't picture myself not doing it.

14:02You know, I think the day that I'm no longer enjoying the sport or, you know, I would rather be doing something else will be the day that I hang up the goggles, so to speak. But for the moment, I don't see that happening anytime soon. Nice segue because you're setting yourself up for future success by starting a business. I didn't set you up with that one at all, but it's a nice segue. um let's talk about sponsor where did the idea come from and you know screw it just do it moment when did you decide to stop talking about it like internally and and with with friends and family etc and actually take action on the idea yeah it's a good question i think it was probably around early 2025 um you know so so probably q1 2025 at some point i don't know the exact date um but it It was around then and I was going through a process with a brand for me and a sponsorship deal that I was in the process of working through.

15:00And it was one of those where I just kind of sat back one day and I was like, this is really, really frustrating. And I was like, actually, this isn't just really frustrating. This whole experience that I've ever had all the way through my career of trying to find sponsorships and events and campaigns and basically earnings opportunities as an athlete can be really difficult. it's really hard to find them. There's not many out there. When you do find them, it's then quite often a really long, you know, drawn out process to be able to actually get that going. And I just kind of sat back the one day and I was like, there's got to be a better way for this to be done in this day and age.

15:38And it was around the time, I think, where AI was all really starting to kick off and things were going a little bit crazy in that sort of tech industry. And I was like well if people can be making talking robots that are like almost human like at this point why have we still got this really manual you know email pen and paper kind of world between between athletes and brands and so that's where it all kind of started and then I went and spoke to a load of other athletes starting with some of my kind of post network just asking them you know their experiences and seeing you know what what their journeys have been like in that that world and found that it was very very similar everybody had experienced the same kind of struggles really So then expanded that out, spoke to a lot of athletes in other sports and various different levels, again, to see, is this something that happens everywhere or is it just in my close network?

16:25And again, found all athletes everywhere at every level seem to have the same struggle. And I was like, well, this is really interesting. And then obviously had to think, right, well, all of the athletes are struggling with this. Doesn't mean anything if the brands aren't. So I went and spoke to a number of decision makers of brands that I've worked with in the past and had good relationships with. And again, just ask the question of what's your process like for working with athletes? How does that look? How do you go about doing it? How many members of the team do you allocate to that? And again, found that it's a really tough process for them.

16:58It takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of man hours. It's not simple. It's not easy to track. It's not easy to manage or scale up. And I was like, well, this is really interesting now. We've got two lots of people that want to work with each other but can't find a way to do it simply or easily. And so that was where it was all kind of brought around then. And first port of call for me was, right, well, what could this look like? Based on all these issues that everybody's told me they've got and these shared common problems, what could a solution be? And started to kind of put that together and get feedback on that from all of those people and understand, you know, what do you think of this?

17:32And no, actually, that doesn't work. What about this then? And kind of started to shape what this almost solution could look like. Came to a point where everybody seemed to be pretty on board that this looks this look really good this seemed like a really good idea and really good solution and from there i was like right well i think we've got ourselves a business here um but i'm not really a business person yet um you know i'm still very new to this world i've always been fascinated by business and always kind of dabbled in in bits and pieces here and there throughout my my life really um but i've never never tried to take on a challenge like this before and obviously being the way i am i was like that's not going to stop me i'm going to do it anyway so um yeah i think sorry stop me if I'm if I'm rambling here I have interest there Matt who was um say the first port of call that you went for for advice then so like saying that good point to stop you there when you were saying like I don't know anything about business what shall I do who did you turn to to to speak to was was there a person or a couple of people that immediately kind of sprung to mind that you respected and wanted to chat to yeah absolutely that was that was exactly it the first kind of step for me was, well, I know I've got something here.

18:42And it's almost been validated by those conversations that there's something to this idea. But in terms of delivering on that now, and how do we actually turn this idea into a real business was an area that I was like, right, this isn't my expertise yet. So the first person I spoke to was actually a guy called Jim Rumbly, who's a fantastic, fantastic guy. So he's somebody I'd worked with previously on another project that I'd invested into. And he'd worked closely with that project and I'd got to know him really well. And so somebody I really respected, I knew his background was exceptional. And so I just gave him a call and I was like, right, Jim, this is this thought I've got.

19:23This is all the bits and pieces that I've done so far. What do you think? And he was like, look, mate, this seems like a really interesting idea. He was like, I can see where you're going with it. The fact that everybody seems to be on the same page about the issues and the problems is really encouraging. And he was like, right, well, these are the bits you need to get started to turn this into something. You know, and really worked with me then to kind of build out that plan, that roadmap, the goal, you know, and what we were looking to do and what we needed to do between now and then to get there.

19:54So then from that point, one of the early conversations will look, you know, Jim's fantastic. He's great with the numbers. He knows all the business stuff, but he's not a techie guy. You know, I'm not a techie guy either. I'm working to build a tech company here. So what do we do there? So the next conversation then was with a guy called Matt Cox, who's another fantastic guy. So he's the father of another swimmer that I'm good friends with. And he used to be, or very recently, he sold his half of a software development company that he co-founded about 20 years ago. And I was like, right, Matt's a great person to speak to.

20:32So talk to him, talk to him about what we were doing. And he was exactly the same, really bought into it, really liked it. obviously probably having a child in that world would have helped he knew knew the issues we were looking to solve um and so those two guys are the first two people i kind of formally brought on board and took on this journey with me because i wanted to really fill the gaps in in you know the obvious big gaps in my knowledge and experience with people that had been there and done it and could tell me when i'm being stupid so um yeah those are the first two and it's perfect i worked for Richard Branson for like 17 years with Atlantic and then five years with Virgin Startup.

21:09And you could see it more so when I was at Virgin Startup, because when I was at Virgin Atlantic, I was too busy, too busy partying and not, not realizing is like a 40 year old guy who owns an airline and a record company back in the day. I wish I'd paid more attention, but Virgin Startup, you'd see him starting up all these new businesses. And an example I always think of is like Virgin Sport. and he's like you know you might automatically think you've you you've got billions and billions of pounds i'm going to start a new business let's chuck a load of money at it get the best people massive team but no every business that he started he would literally pick someone who was elite in their field so virgin sport it was the head of um the new york marathon which before i think london last year 2025 was the biggest participation sport in the world so he got her put her behind a desk and gave her like three support staff and that's it but incentivized her by giving her you know shares in the business so she's incentivized to work it and i you know because i was that virgin startup at the time i'm like wow i i didn't remotely think that i was i was thinking he'd go in you know chuck you know tens of millions of pounds at it staff of 30 or whatever it might be i'd never in a million years think he'd literally go here's three people um here's you who's got experience creating this massive you know participation sport business go and create something like that for virgin but you know it starts small right with with all these things um something that something that popped into my head matt was um you know in these conversations with these people that you you know knew like respected and trusted um did at any point somebody say um you're an elite athlete you're you're you're aiming for these competitions how are we going to ensure that you don't become totally and utterly overwhelmed and that career goes you know by the because we're talking as you alluded to the margins in your your sport are tiny right so how do you kind of road put put that or you as part of the roadmap yeah absolutely no it was it was a not a concern per se but it was something we talked about quite a lot early on to kind of figure out what could that look like and what would it look like?

23:25Not just now, but also if things go really, really well, what does that look like? Because that's an area that we wanted to make sure, obviously the goal is for them to go really, really well, but we didn't want that to happen and then us to be going, well, what do we do now? So yeah, it was a conversation we had and talked a lot about early on. And the kind of general consensus was, look, firstly, I'm riddled with ADHD. I'm absolutely full of it I can't sit still my mind is never off and so we were like that's already a little bit of a superpower for me there and then the conversation from there was like right well what does this actually look like on a day-to-day basis what is what are the deliverables if you like of the two worlds actually look like and I think we realized pretty quick that as much as swimming is a very demanding sport there's a lot of training that goes into it there's also a lot of hours in between training that you're kind of sat at home twiddling your thumbs.

24:18And that's an area where we were like, well, there's some real opportunity there to do something constructive with that time, you know, and use that to really dedicate myself to what I'm doing here. But to be completely honest, there was somewhat of we had to take a punt and see what happened and see where it went. And so that's kind of what we did really. And early on, obviously, there wasn't that much for me to be doing in the business. You know, as of right now, where we're on just under two weeks from launch on the day of filming. There's a lot going on. There's tons to be doing. There's always stuff to get done.

24:54But I think for me personally, the way that I work, being able to leave the pool and almost really sink my teeth into something outside of the water and really get stuck in there and engage my mind constantly and always problem solving and almost being able to bounce around different areas of the business all the time because that's what it requires it stimulates my mind in a way that that i really enjoy and that i love and i think it's given me almost outside of the pool the sort of focus to make sure that when i'm at the pool i'm completely locked in on the water um you know and i'm not distracted or um you know thinking about other things and it gives me a nice space as well actually to step away from the business world and what's going on there and being able to step back and just do something else for a little bit and then likewise when i get home same thing i get to stick to something else and think about that and not end up overthinking about the pool and about performance and training and all of that.

25:48And so we've actually found that it's been a really nice, yeah, a nice distraction from each other and a nice balance. Yeah, because again, I've spoken to a number of professional athletes over the years from everything from rugby to football and kind of everything in between and sprinting and BMX and skiing, you name it. And the amount of people you speak to who, similar to what you say, got that much spare time on their hands and they're not using it constructively. There are, you know, it might be constructed to some people, but, you know, gaming or, you know, playing, you know, million different hours of table tennis or something like that.

26:23But if you can actually engage your mind with problem solving as you're doing as well and you're learning, you're educating yourself. Thought popped into my head then as well. I always remember interviewing Julian Hearn from Huel. And at the time when I did the first interview with him, they'd gone from a£750 ,000 turnover in year one to, I think, 50 million, I should say, in year five. But I remember him saying he set that business up to be a lifestyle business or he didn't want to employ anybody. And he said, by the end of year one, with£750 ,000 in sales, I realized this ain't no lifestyle business.

27:02So I've got to start plugging people into where I don't have the knowledge who can grow and scale the company. Because, again, he was like, I'm clearly onto something here. How do I grab this with both hands? But one argument is you could have kept it. You could have downscaled it. But any entrepreneur is not going to want to do that, right? You're going to want to ride the coattails of that thing. So how did you like how much of a this is like my virgin startup brain coming back in. How much of proof of concept did you have then? Like how many people did you think? How many athletes did you want to talk to?

27:40How many brands did you want to talk to? Because I've seen kind of both sides where somebody would come in and go, I've spoken to three people and someone else gone. I've spoken to 3000 people. And you're like, OK, slow down. When are you going to action the idea? there's only so many people you can speak to, right? What was your kind of proof of concept numbers-wise with that, Matt? Yeah, it's a great question. To be honest, I don't think I've got the exact numbers off the top of my head. You know, it's been obviously such a journey since then. I can't remember the exact details, but I think it was well over 20 different athletes from, I think, eight different sports and tried to really get a range of, you know, the top, the real elites of those sports.

28:17And then some people that were more sort of early in that journey, whether that be junior athletes or, you know, athletes that are competing at the very highest of levels, but haven't necessarily had the major success yet to really break through. And try to get a real breadth of that and understand from everybody's perspective, what does it look like? And likewise, from the brands, I think I spoke to five decision makers, five different brands that I worked with to understand, you know, their processes and their different industries and sectors, if you like. Again, to just get a grip of what does that actually look like?

28:49you know and I think you've almost kind of alluded to it quite well there and I suppose you you buy into it given the name of the show I'm very much somebody that I don't like to just kind of stew on things and think I would much rather get started make some mistakes along the way and maybe even have to completely pivot if I really have to rather than spend forever with that kind of analysis paralysis of overthinking and over over analyzing because I believe that you learn far more from doing than you do from thinking. Exactly. Hence the name of the show. Screw it, just do it. It's literally trying to get those people who are sitting on the fence, procrastinating or just not taking action to actually do the thing.

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30:08plus signing up for an account is completely free and there are no ongoing monthly fees you've got 60 days from sign up to use them head to worldfirst.com forward slash screw it and get your 50 fee-free business transactions now back to the podcast for me it's always like you know you you can come up with your roadmap and you you can you can reverse engineer the process but then it's like what is it's like one of my favorite books called the one thing and it's like what is that one big domino that if you if you do that task and it could be a phone call it could be i don't know social media post a conversation but if you do if you knock that big domino over it knocks all the other dominos makes everything else easier in the entire process right um and tell me um for launch um there's there's never a perfect number right but in your mind um what were you kind of building up to like how many athletes how many brands what kind of um uh ratio um and i guess you know you're shooting in the dark right you don't know what you don't know but um what are you kind of thinking in your mind is is kind of good numbers and uh that kind of thing yeah so i think i'll start with what we were kind of hoping for um sort of a while back when we when we really got started with the process of building the platform um you know and kind of setting a date for when we'd like to launch.

31:28So at that point in time, the goal for us was to launch the platform with 500 athletes on a wait list and five brands to go with that. And those five brands to list an opportunity when we launched. So, you know, we're also well aware that as much as we are essentially building a two-sided marketplace, if you like, there are far more athletes out there that are looking to earn money and looking to get sponsorships than there are brands who have a budget to do that. You know, and so we're not going to shy away from that and sort of try and pretend that everybody that joins sponsor is going to get a massive sponsorship deal because it's just not possible um you know so we are very aware of that and conscious of it that said um the goal is to try and make sure that we bring as many brands and as many opportunities for athletes onto the platform as possible um to be able to to work with those athletes so as of right now we've got we've just today ticked over 5 000 athletes on our weightless um now that's coming from over 50 different sports so we've got 50 sports on our on our weightless drop down if you like and then we've got other and we've got about 500 of those athletes who are in the other category so um i can't i'm not sure how many more sports we can think of but we're gonna we're gonna send out some uh some some targeted outreach to them to figure out what those sports are and add them to the list um but so so that's the kind of athlete side at the moment uh and then as of today i think we've got 20 different brands ready to to launch with and then we've got multiple of those brands planning to launch with multiple opportunities.